Let's talk PDW's

[StraitR]

Split off from a comment I made in the Long Gun photo thread HERE. (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?118-Long-Guns-Photo-Gallery&p=1018064&viewfull=1#post1018064)

I've never really considered having a "truck gun", or put much thought into having a rifle "along for the ride" outside of the house. The thought has crossed my mind to take a long gun when we go venturing by vehicle into the remote(ish) areas of our local national forest, but I've not cared for the thought of throwing a 16" AR in the back of the 4Runner for whatever reason.

That being said, the current climate inspired a spontaneous purchase of a DDM4 PDW for just that reason. It's likely totally unnecessary, but since buying it, I've actually taken to the overall concept of a PDW. It's definitely a different tool in the tool box.

Anyway, any other PDW or similar users? General discussion of the concept welcome.

The camera on my iPhone took a dump after five years, so I'm at the mercy of friends and their camera phones. This is all I have at the moment.

DDM4 PDW
Aimpoint T2 in Larue LT751
Q Cherry Bomb muzzle device
SiCo Omega + Q Plan B

Still working out what I want to do about a light, as I'll likely just start using this for HD due to compact size.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49706604512_3fcbcb367a_c.jpg

[ranger]

Rather than build from scratch- I added LAW folders to two 5.56 carbines for this purpose. One 16 inch lightweight pencil upper and one 14.5 pinned to 16 CHF PSA upper. The LAW folder adds weight but really shortens overall length when folded. I used a Magpul fixed carbine stock for one of theses lowers - that seems just right with added length from LAW.

[LittleLebowski]

I know, 9mm will get me killed on the streets...

50793

[Clusterfrack]

Based loosely on advice from a friend who works in executive protection, I put together a 300 BLK pistol PDW for protecting my VIPs (family) while traveling by car. I can think of a few scenarios where a handgun wouldn't be enough. E.g. Armed thug roadblock, Katrina level civil unrest, etc. Since I wanted a very compact pistol length gun, I broke my general policy of avoiding adding more calibers to my arsenal. A 7.5" gun in 5.56 just doesn't make sense. But in 300 BLK, it works really well. This gun fits in a tennis racket case.

Palmetto "multi" pistol lower, Doublestar Strongarm brace, H3 buffer, Geissele ambi safety. The DS brace is aluminum, very solid, and is the most compact non-collapsing brace I could find.
Palmetto 7.5" 300 BLK upper, BCM BCG & CH, ALG 8" V0X Rail, TLR7, Trijicon MRO on Geissele lower 1/3 mount. (The upper came with a crappy MLok rail that I immediately scrapped.)

Lancer 20 round and Magpul 30 round 300BLK specific mags. (Note that I have verified that my 300BLK loads will not chamber in my 5.56 uppers.)
Barnes 110gr TAC-TX

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200328/5b7ed5817a9818f7afebb709cab15fc2.jpg

[HeavyDuty]

My trunk buddy:

50795

It’s been 100% reliable with about 800 rounds in. It fits nicely in a bag alongside the spare tire under the parcel deck of my CR-V. I’ve avoided .300 BLK up until now, I may reassess that.

[Colt191145lover]

Not going to lie, this has been ridding shotgun with me a lot lately. Easy to break down to stow in a backpack. Other than the weight, it is handier in a car than my 11.5 AR pistol. 50796

[StraitR]

I know, 9mm will get me killed on the streets...

I almost went with the Scorpion EVO, but I don't have a suppressor for it. Still on my wantsies list. Thinking it fills the "PDW" role here though.

[Rick R]

It seems like a good idea to have something more effective when traveling. Not necessarily for quick draw but to have available should bad things develop along Life’s path. I live in a state with Constitutional Carry but DNR law frowns on loaded long guns or weapon mounted lights. It also wouldn’t be unheard of to have a shooting competition just happen amongst my family and friends.

I built what I wanted in 5.56mm. Aero M4e1 lower & lpk, ALG ACT fcg, H2 buffer, Gearhead Works brace, Ballistic Advantage upper with 10.5” barrel and BA BCG. It currently has a SIG Romeo 4DR instead of the pictured Venom. It rides in a 5.11 SBR sling bag. For security I have a length of heavy plastic coated SS cable with loops crimped on each end. One end looped around a seat stanchion, the other feeds through the guns magazine well with the bolt locked back. A padlock goes on the end to lock it to the truck if I plan on being away for any length of time.

The bag holds three 30 round magazines, a HSG double Taco with an extra magazine for my EDC pistol, 100 rounds of 5.56 target ammo, sweater, gloves, scarf and knit cap.

50797

[Grey]

Have things changed where the 300 BO does anything better than a short barrel 7.62x39?

I have a 7.62x39 PWS SBR that I haven't touched in years.

[ccmdfd]

Based loosely on advice from a friend who works in executive protection, I put together a 300 BLK pistol PDW for protecting my VIPs (family) while traveling by car. I can think of a few scenarios where a handgun wouldn't be enough. E.g. Armed thug roadblock, Katrina level civil unrest, etc. Since I wanted a very compact pistol length gun, I broke my general policy of avoiding adding more calibers to my arsenal. A 7.5" gun in 5.56 just doesn't make sense. But in 300 BLK, it works really well. This gun fits in a tennis racket case.

Palmetto "multi" pistol lower, Doublestar Strongarm brace, H3 buffer, Geissele ambi safety. The DS brace is aluminum, very solid, and is the most compact non-collapsing brace I could find.
Palmetto 7.5" 300 BLK upper, BCM BCG & CH, ALG 8" V0X Rail, TLR7, Trijicon MRO on Geissele lower 1/3 mount. (The upper came with a crappy MLok rail that I immediately scrapped.)

Lancer 20 round and Magpul 30 round 300BLK specific mags. (Note that I have verified that my 300BLK loads will not chamber in my 5.56 uppers.)
Barnes 110gr TAC-TX

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200328/5b7ed5817a9818f7afebb709cab15fc2.jpg


Nice looking setup!

What kind of muzzle device is that, or is it a suppressor?

thanks
cc

[Clusterfrack]

Nice looking setup!

What kind of muzzle device is that, or is it a suppressor?

thanks
cc

It’s a blast can that came with the upper. Seems to work ok in keeping the noise and blast away from the shooter and those on the sides.

I also have a 10” ALG rail that I can swap on when I want to run a 9mm suppressor with subs.

[Lester Polfus]

It's funny you should mention that.

I've been re-evaluating the idea of a .300 BLK pistol.

It would use many of the same bullets as my .308, and many of the same powders as my .357, so I'd just be adding cases and small rifle primers to my supply chain.

Can anybody comment on the advisability of building one on a Polymer 80 receiver, with a PSA parts kit?

[HeavyDuty]

I almost went with the Scorpion EVO, but I don't have a suppressor for it. Still on my wantsies list. Thinking it fills the "PDW" role here though.

That’s my other trunk buddy... but since it has a RDS now, I prefer the AR pistol.

https://pistol-forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=46229&d=1577027947.jpg

[Clusterfrack]

That’s my other trunk buddy... but since it has a RDS now, I prefer the AR pistol.

https://pistol-forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=46229&d=1577027947.jpg

Damn dude. Your trunk monkey is well equipped.

[Zincwarrior]

Not going to lie, this has been ridding shotgun with me a lot lately. Easy to break down to stow in a backpack. Other than the weight, it is handier in a car than my 11.5 AR pistol. 50796
The 1980s called, and just reminded us that those were the good old days. (translation, I am jealous).

[HeavyDuty]

Damn dude. Your trunk monkey is well equipped.

I was a Boy Scout.

[Beat Trash]

The closest I have to a DPW is a DDV7 Pistol in 5.56. It’s got the 10.3” barrel, an SBA3 brace with a split fix on the brace. A Surefire M300 and an Aimpoint T-1.

I don’t want to go with a smaller barrel in 5.56mm and I’m not ready to add in a new caliber and go in on the 300 Blk.

I currently am using this as my go-to in my house. It was bought as my travel gun when on vacation.

My state is in a mandatory lockdown. Of sorts. Most of my trips are to and from work and I’m issued a marked take home car that has a personally owned 16” DDM4V7 in it.

But when I go out to the store on my off time, the AR Pistol is in my personal car. Something I’ve never done in the past.

With all that’s going on, and the potential for it to get worse, the PDW concept is becoming more and more of a valid concept in my opinion. Kind of wishing I owned a Sig Rattler right about now.

Also a part of me regrets selling my IWI Tavor X95 bull pup.

I think once this is over and the firearms industry has recovered, I will look into a 300 Blk PDW.

[awp_101]

I've been re-evaluating the idea of a .300 BLK pistol.

Can anybody comment on the advisability of building one on a Polymer 80 receiver, with a PSA parts kit?
I thought the problem with polymer AR receivers was they tend to crack/break where the buffer tube screws in but I'm not sure if that's still true or not.

[awp_101]

Damn it, this thread is making me rethink building an AR45 before a .300BLK...

[Clusterfrack]

Have things changed where the 300 BO does anything better than a short barrel 7.62x39?

I have a 7.62x39 PWS SBR that I haven't touched in years.

I think except for use of subsonic and < 10” barrels, 7.62x39 is superior in every way?

[Rick62]

The closest I have to a DPW is a DDV7 Pistol in 5.56. It’s got the 10.3” barrel, an SBA3 brace with a split fix on the brace. A Surefire M300 and an Aimpoint T-1.

I don’t want to go with a smaller barrel in 5.56mm and I’m not ready to add in a new caliber and go in on the 300 Blk.

I currently am using this as my go-to in my house. It was bought as my travel gun when on vacation.

My state is in a mandatory lockdown. Of sorts. Most of my trips are to and from work and I’m issued a marked take home car that has a personally owned 16” DDM4V7 in it.

But when I go out to the store on my off time, the AR Pistol is in my personal car. Something I’ve never done in the past.

With all that’s going on, and the potential for it to get worse, the PDW concept is becoming more and more of a valid concept in my opinion. Kind of wishing I owned a Sig Rattler right about now.

Also a part of me regrets selling my IWI Tavor X95 bull pup.

I think once this is over and the firearms industry has recovered, I will look into a 300 Blk PDW.


I've been kicking around the idea of picking up one of these two. A full sized AR takes the ride to and from work with me in a sorta discreet bag. I've been thinking (with increased seriousness, as of late) that I wouldn't mind having something, in addition to a handgun, with me at other times. I'd feel a lot less ridiculous tossing a PDW sized bag in the car with me than anything 16" AR sized. I'm not super interested in picking up a new platform or caliber, but it seems I'll have to make a concession on one of those aspects.

[Grey]

I think except for use of subsonic and < 10” barrels, 7.62x39 is superior in every way?I think that short barrel performance in terms of burnt powder is the same.

Obviously the 300 BO magazines function better than AR 7.62x39 mags.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[StraitR]

I think except for use of subsonic and < 10” barrels, 7.62x39 is superior in every way?

With supersonic ammo, the x39 has no less than 100fps advantage at any given barrel length, last I looked (back when @GJM (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=410) inquired about a 300blk SBR vs Krink). Otherwise, I think the biggest advantage of 300blk > x39 is reliable mags in AR pattern rifles and availability/selection of high PD/HD ammunition.

[StraitR]

I've been kicking around the idea of picking up one of these two. A full sized AR takes the ride to and from work with me in a sorta discreet bag. I've been thinking (with increased seriousness, as of late) that I wouldn't mind having something, in addition to a handgun, with me at other times. I'd feel a lot less ridiculous tossing a PDW sized bag in the car with me than anything 16" AR sized. I'm not super interested in picking up a new platform or caliber, but it seems I'll have to make a concession on one of those aspects.

Everything I've seen about the Sig Rattler says it's a terrible suppressor host, if that matters to you.

[Rick62]

Everything I've seen about the Sig Rattler says it's a terrible suppressor host, if that matters to you.

Not relevant still this time, though I appreciate the insight.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Joe in PNG]

I know, 9mm will get me killed on the streets...

50793

Another fan here. Plus, it fits in a laptop case or backpack without too much drama.

[GJM]

Over the past few years, the 8 inch .300 BLK AR pistol, and small 9mm in the form of the SP5K and now APC9 Pro, have easily become the most useful “larger than carry pistol” firearms for my wife and me. Being able to easily stick them in a pack is a game changer.

[StraitR]

Over the past few years, the 8 inch .300 BLK AR pistol, and small 9mm in the form of the SP5K and now APC9 Pro, have easily become the most useful “larger than carry pistol” firearms for my wife and me. Being able to easily stick them in a pack is a game changer.

Your endorsement over the last year or so for the 300blk pistols was a consideration in my decision to buy. Not that I needed a big push or anything, but if you trusted it for big bear defense, it should fill my needs well. :D

**********

General thread thoughts....

I wasn't very clear in my original post, I think "PDW" is a broad stroke, covered in different ways for different people. It doesn't have to be some current technical definition. Scorpion's, subguns in general, Krinks, 10.3" or whatever AR pistols or SBR's all fall into my thought process for the purpose of this thread. What are you toting around for your Personal Defense Weapon that's above and behind what you have tucked in your belt? That's what I had in mind for the discussion here.

[Duces Tecum]

Some states forbid carry of a loaded rifle in the car. In such case, a modest little AR pistol, covered by one's CCW, should be ok. When I think of a PDW my mind goes to something like this.

https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2020/01/springfield-saint-edge-pdw-first-look/

https://cdn.athlonoutdoors.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/6/2020/01/springfield-saint-edge-evac-takedown.jpg

[Clusterfrack]

Some states forbid carry of a loaded rifle in the car. In such case, a modest little AR pistol, covered by one's CCW, should be ok. When I think of a PDW my mind goes to something like this.


A 5.5" barrel in 5.56? Pass.

[Duces Tecum]

A 5.5" barrel in 5.56? Pass.

@Clustgerfrack, I understand. But it's only a barrel change away from .300 BLK. It's probably reasonable to expect a BLK shortly after the 5.56 is introduced. :D

[HeavyDuty]

A 5.5" barrel in 5.56? Pass.

The perfect is the enemy of good.

[WobblyPossum]

I was in the process of completing an 11.5” AR pistol with folding brace exactly for this use when the Coronapocalypse began. My state doesn’t restrict the carriage of loaded long guns in a vehicle so it might be time to break out the AUG until this all blows over. I’ll need a bag that’s less conspicuous than the ukulele case it currently lives in though because I have no way to secure the gun in my vehicle so I can’t leave it unattended.

[BobM]

I bought a lower last fall planning on building a 300 pistol. I put the project on the back burner but I think I’m going to bump it back up. I have a Ruger American Ranch so I have some ammo but not a lot. Once I assembled the lower I was considering simply buying a BCM upper to finish.

[Clusterfrack]

The perfect is the enemy of good.

I get this, but bear with me. I think there are two market sectors for "PDW" type guns: 1) people who want a cool looking gun and think 3' of flame and a giant muzzle blast is cool and don't care about terminal ballistics or reliability that much. 2) people like us who want a PDW for defensive purposes.

I'm ready to be convinced that a 5-8" 5.56, or 10" .308 (https://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/handguns/springfield-saint-victor-pistol/), is a good idea for any real world use. It would be awesome... but I don't think physics will work in our favor here. Companies like Springfield are primarily marketing for group 1 because the AR market is pretty well saturated.

[HeavyDuty]

I get this, but bear with me. I think there are two market sectors for "PDW" type guns: 1) people who want a cool looking gun and think 3' of flame and a giant muzzle blast is cool and don't care about terminal ballistics or reliability that much. 2) people like us who want a PDW for defensive purposes.

I'm ready to be convinced that a 5-8" 5.56, or 10" .308 (https://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/handguns/springfield-saint-victor-pistol/), is a good idea for any real world use. It would be awesome... but I don't think physics will work in our favor here. Companies like Springfield are primarily marketing for group 1 because the AR market is pretty well saturated.

I’ll be honest - when I built the 7.5” 5.56 above I wasn’t expecting much. But, reliability over 800 or so rounds has been 100% (I don’t think I’d want to run a class with it, though), it’s easy to hit with and I think the terminal ballistics are acceptable for what it is, especially when considering the size envelope. At the time I was trying to avoid putting another caliber into the personal inventory. If I were to do it again, I’ll probably go .300 BLK since it has really taken off in commercial availability since I built it, but I don’t feel ill served by it as is.

[StraitR]

I'm ready to be convinced that a 5-8" 5.56, or 10" .308 (https://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/handguns/springfield-saint-victor-pistol/), is a good idea for any real world use. It would be awesome... but I don't think physics will work in our favor here. Companies like Springfield are primarily marketing for group 1 because the AR market is pretty well saturated.

Exactly.

There are currently zero quality 5.56mm PD/HD/Duty ammunition offerings with a performance window that will reach down into the muzzle velocity of a 5-9" barrel, let alone 25 or more yards downrange. None. I've seen all the big LE duty ammo players tested (Hornady, Winchester, Speer) to FBI protocol, and not one will open up in bare gel, let alone show even marginal auto glass performance. FMJ relies on velocity to yaw and fragment, so same story there. Based on what I've seen, 5.56 users would be better off with >10.5" barrels, and a PDW stock or LAW folder to make things more compact.

Hornady makes a 75gr Interlock HD SBR (https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/5.56-nato-75-gr-interlock-hd-sbr-black#!/) for 10.5"-11.5" guns, for those who want to keep 5.56 short and potent.

ETA: Considerably more technical data on the 75gr Interlock can be found on the HornadyLE website, HERE (https://www.hornadyle.com/rifle-ammunition/75-gr-tap-sbr#!/).

[Clusterfrack]

Hornady makes a 75gr Interlock HD SBR (https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/5.56-nato-75-gr-interlock-hd-sbr-black#!/) for 10.5"-11.5" guns, for those who want to keep 5.56 short and potent.

Thumbs up. TAP SBR. That’s what’s in my house AR, a 11.5” BCM lightweight fluted.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200329/8f170b87639a29ce0ac7419f6940c43e.jpg

[HeavyDuty]

Exactly.

There are currently zero quality 5.56mm PD/HD/Duty ammunition offerings with a performance window that will reach down into the muzzle velocity of a 5-9" barrel, let alone 25 or more yards downrange. None. I've seen all the big LE duty ammo players tested (Hornady, Winchester, Speer) to FBI protocol, and not one will open up in bare gel, let alone show even marginal auto glass performance. FMJ relies on velocity to yaw and fragment, so same story there. Based on what I've seen, 5.56 users would be better off with >10.5" barrels, and a PDW stock or LAW folder to make things more compact.

Hornady makes a 75gr Interlock HD SBR (https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/5.56-nato-75-gr-interlock-hd-sbr-black#!/) for 10.5"-11.5" guns, for those who want to keep 5.56 short and potent.

ETA: Considerably more technical data on the 75gr Interlock can be found on the HornadyLE website, HERE (https://www.hornadyle.com/rifle-ammunition/75-gr-tap-sbr#!/).

I built two 5.56 pistols at the same time - the little 7.5” above as a toy, and a 12.5” for more serious use. The only reason the 12.5” isn’t seeing car duty right now is that it has a Tailhook Mod 2 and no folder, and it won’t fit under the parcel deck. I’ll add a LAW folder, a Sabertube and a Tailhook Mod 1 (the same as what’s on the 7.5” right now) to it when I can afford it.

I have no doubt that I would be better defended with it compared to the 7.5”. But as a 50M weapon, I’m not losing sleep using the 7.5” right now... but I should probably start watching for a decent .300 BLK barrel to make it better.

[TGS]

Over the past few years, the 8 inch .300 BLK AR pistol, and small 9mm in the form of the SP5K and now APC9 Pro, have easily become the most useful “larger than carry pistol” firearms for my wife and me. Being able to easily stick them in a pack is a game changer.

I'm wondering why the larger 9mm PCCs get the nod these days.

The B&T TP9 gets almost no mention, anywhere, when people talk about PDWs. It seems like the perfect PDW to me, if you're jumping down to pistol calibers. If I can fit an APC9K, I can fit a Honey Badger, so I'd rather have the latter.

The TP9 will fit in much smaller bags, and weighs half as much as the other options. It's something that's been on my radar for a while with great interest.

[HeavyDuty]

I'm wondering why the larger 9mm PCCs get the nod these days.

The B&T TP9 gets almost no mention, anywhere, when people talk about PDWs. It seems like the perfect PDW to me, if you're jumping down to pistol calibers. If I can fit an APC9K, I can fit a Honey Badger, so I'd rather have the latter.

The TP9 will fit in much smaller bags, and weighs half as much as the other options. It's something that's been on my radar for a while with great interest.

I looked at the TP9, but I passed due to cost and also due to the magazine in grip design being an issue with some jurisdictions.

[GJM]

I'm wondering why the larger 9mm PCCs get the nod these days.

The B&T TP9 gets almost no mention, anywhere, when people talk about PDWs. It seems like the perfect PDW to me, if you're jumping down to pistol calibers. If I can fit an APC9K, I can fit a Honey Badger, so I'd rather have the latter.

The TP9 will fit in much smaller bags, and weighs half as much as the other options. It's something that's been on my radar for a while with great interest.

I am not familiar with the TP9, beyond looking at one on the web. I would be curious how they shoot.

The APC 9 Pro G fits in my GR1, takes Glock magazines, and I can shoot it nearly as well as a 16 inch MPX. I keep it at hand overnight when camping in the Sprinter out in the desert. If I had to shoot from inside the Sprinter, it will almost certainly be without ear pro, and while I prefer .300 BLK, everything is a trade off. The APC9 Pro is easier to get in a regular pack.

50843

50844

50845

[HeavyDuty]

Ok - I are an analyst, so I’m always open to reassessing past decisions.

If a guy wanted to rebarrel a 7.5” 5.56 to an 8” .300 BLK, what is involved? New barrel and bolt?

[GJM]

Ok - I are an analyst, so I’m always open to reassessing past decisions.

If a guy wanted to rebarrel a 7.5” 5.56 to an 8” .300 BLK, what is involved? New barrel and bolt?

I are not a gunsmith, but I think it is just barrel not the bolt.

[Clusterfrack]

HeavyDuty, yes just the barrel is different. You’ll likely need a heavier buffer for supersonic 300 BLK. I use an H3.

[Default.mp3]

There are currently zero quality 5.56mm PD/HD/Duty ammunition offerings with a performance window that will reach down into the muzzle velocity of a 5-9" barrel, let alone 25 or more yards downrange. None. I've seen all the big LE duty ammo players tested (Hornady, Winchester, Speer) to FBI protocol, and not one will open up in bare gel, let alone show even marginal auto glass performance. FMJ relies on velocity to yaw and fragment, so same story there. Based on what I've seen, 5.56 users would be better off with >10.5" barrels, and a PDW stock or LAW folder to make things more compact.I mean, Gold Dot is suppose to expand down to ~1700 FPS, so... should be good for 100 yards and in even with a 7.5" barrel, particularly with some of the lighter bullets? I would be very interested in seeing what testing you've seen that contradicts that, so that I can stop spouting off that line when people ask about super-short .223 guns.

[RevolverRob]

I looked at the TP9, but I passed due to cost and also due to the magazine in grip design being an issue with some jurisdictions.

Wouldn’t that be the other way around?

In many places it’s when the mag is outside the grip that it causes issues.

FWIW, the TP9 seems cool, but I can’t get a read on if they are reliable long-term.

I thought about the TP9 as well for “PDW” realm which is strictly a braced pistol for me.

[rca90gsx]

I know, 9mm will get me killed on the streets...

50793

How is the reliability with the scorpion pistol? I'm actually looking at the Scorpion Micro right now and trying to decide now on it.

Thanks!

[GJM]

How is the reliability with the scorpion pistol? I'm actually looking at the Scorpion Micro right now and trying to decide now on it.

Thanks!

The Evo pistols have the reputation of being reliable as long as you use factory length magazines without extensions and leave the trigger stock.

[rca90gsx]

Thanks! I appreciate that. The micro seems like it would be a great PDW setup, since it already comes with the pistol brace etc... I appreciate it.


The Evo pistols have the reputation of being reliable as long as you use factory length magazines without extensions and leave the trigger stock.

[LittleLebowski]

How is the reliability with the scorpion pistol? I'm actually looking at the Scorpion Micro right now and trying to decide now on it.

Thanks!

Runs like a champ, even with the Omega 9K can (tri lug). No drama, the suppressor doesn’t bother it at all. Spooky quiet with 147s.

[ccmdfd]

The Evo pistols have the reputation of being reliable as long as you use factory length magazines without extensions and leave the trigger stock.


Are the stock triggers any better these days?

cc

[GJM]

Are the stock triggers any better these days?

cc

Not sure. My info is based on owning one (or maybe still owning one but I can’t remember) and not shooting it, but observing others shoot them in USPSA and speaking with people like Kelly Neal.

[olstyn]

Thanks! I appreciate that. The micro seems like it would be a great PDW setup, since it already comes with the pistol brace etc... I appreciate it.

Shoot one before you buy if possible. I ran a friend's 16" Scorpion carbine as my first (so far only) exposure to USPSA PCC and found that it disagreed with me. I can't really complain about the reliability, as the problems I had there could easily be attributed to that gun not liking loads set up for my pistols (at the beginning of one stage, I had problems getting it to even chamber the first round, so I wouldn't be shocked if it just didn't like the bullet profile and/or overall length). Reliability aside, the gun seemed to want to jump around in my hands a lot more in recoil than I expected for a full-size rifle in 9mm, especially running loads that make 131 PF in pistols (admittedly probably hotter out of a 16" barrel, but less than what a proper defense load makes). I would expect that trait to be magnified in the miniature version. It also did not feel easy to "drive" the gun around at speed. That part could be my lack of experience running carbines, and might be lessened in the shorter version, so YMMV, but I still think it would be advisable to try before you buy, preferably in a scenario with movement and multiple targets to transition between.

[EPF]

You guys are reading my mind. So what is the best factory solution to the .300 BLK braced pistol without price as a consideration? I’m no armorer and building or even heavy tinkering is not my thing. My current solution is a braced Zenith Z5K that runs great and is a pleasure to shoot. I was considering upgrading to a Navy lower to get a more ergonomic safety but the excuse to buy a new urban apocalypse LARP toy is calling.

50850


50851



The DD looks pretty good but availability online is hard to define. The Q options looks like a long wait or maybe unobtainium. Are the MCX versions reliable yet?

I haven’t waded into the revolution in suppressors over the past decade so maybe this is the time to work locally with Hanshlon Brothers on the whole package? Are the benefits of the .300 blk reduced if your not running a can?

So I guess I’m wondering if there a go to recommendation for a total package, braced pistol and can?

[Grey]

I haven’t waded into the revolution in suppressors over the past decade so maybe this is the time to work locally with Hanshlon Brothers on the whole package? Are the benefits of the .300 blk reduced if your not running a can?



I can say with absolute certainty you should call up Hansohn Brothers and chat with them about a suppressor. They are top notch. I have two cans in ATF jail through them.

[TGS]

So what is the best factory solution to the .300 BLK braced pistol without price as a consideration?

The Honey Badger or Sugar Weasel by Q, absolutely.

As for unobtainable, dude, call Hansohn Brothers right now. He had one on the wall last week. :cool: Now is the time.

[Grey]

The Honey Badger or Sugar Weasel by Q, absolutely.

As for unobtainable, dude, call Hansohn Brothers right now. He had one on the wall last week. :cool: Now is the time.

The only caveat I would mention about the Honey Badger is that the cheek weld may be less than optimal depending on how your build. I know some people have voiced complaints about the cheek weld.

Personally I'd build my own.

[5pins]

I have to admit, I have been throwing this in my KIA when going out in the past week. This and a 60 round Surefire mag, a little on the heavy side for the size but it beets nothing more than a G19.

https://i.imgur.com/SjG3qbQl.jpg

[GJM]

I just sold my Honey Badger because of these reasons, I despised how the stock felt on my face when shooting, it seems a little hincky to quickly unlock it, it was unpleasant to shoot and seemed to shoot like an itty bitty gun while only being slightly smaller than a more conventional eight inch .300, and disassembly was ridiculous with the fight to get the spring back in place.

I have AAC and BCM eight inch .300 BLK pistols and they are all fine. I have been thinking about a KAC SR-30 when they come back into stock.

[gtmtnbiker98]

Since all the craziness, my Tavor rides with me in my car at all times.

[GJM]

Just going into the bedroom safe, these are our go to ones.

50854

[ccmdfd]

You guys are reading my mind. So what is the best factory solution to the .300 BLK braced pistol without price as a consideration?

I've got a 9 in BCM 300 pistol and it's treated me well so far.

[TGS]

I just sold my Honey Badger because of these reasons, I despised how the stock felt on my face when shooting, it seems a little hincky to quickly unlock it

To this end, Q has the Sugar Weasel, which uses an SBA3 and costs almost a grand less to boot.

[ccmdfd]

Just going into the bedroom safe, these are our go to ones.

50854

If you don't mind;

can you list the makes and models?

I'm not that up to date on all of the modern PDW's

thanks
cc

[Zincwarrior]

I get this, but bear with me. I think there are two market sectors for "PDW" type guns: 1) people who want a cool looking gun and think 3' of flame and a giant muzzle blast is cool and don't care about terminal ballistics or reliability that much. 2) people like us who want a PDW for defensive purposes.

I'm ready to be convinced that a 5-8" 5.56, or 10" .308 (https://www.tactical-life.com/firearms/handguns/springfield-saint-victor-pistol/), is a good idea for any real world use. It would be awesome... but I don't think physics will work in our favor here. Companies like Springfield are primarily marketing for group 1 because the AR market is pretty well saturated.

Ruger just popped a charger vs. of their 9mm carbine which appears perfect for this.

[EPF]

I've got a 9 in BCM 300 pistol and it's treated me well so far.

A factory gun or just the upper? Is it suppressed? I have had good experience with BCM

[Rex G]

My PDW = G17 + X300U + G18 mags. ;)

OK, I find myself revisiting the idea of occasionally toting a PDW type of weapon, two years after buying a .300 BLK DDM4V7P, with the idea of using it for traveling in states that did not allow loaded long guns inside vehicles. My only long road trip, thus far, went into at least one state that simply prohibits all AR15 types of weapons. (Here, Texas allows loaded long guns inside vehicles.) I have recently been looking at lock boxes*, most of which would be problematic for containing long guns, but some of which will hold PDW-sized weapons. My DDM4V7P may yet find a more-regular role. I would not “keep” a firearm inside a vehicle, but short-term locking storage is desirable, and would probably result in my bringing the DDM4V7P with me, much more often.

I have prior experience with a PDW-ish weapon, in the early Eighties, long before Texas issued handgun carry licenses to private citizens, but, then, as now, allowed general carry of long guns, concealed or not, loaded or unloaded, including inside motor vehicles. It was an Uzi Carbine, with the collapsible stock, the version now called “A,” by collectors. My employer, at the time, was cool with me bringing it inside the building, at my evening/night job, so, in effect, I was carrying concealed, off-body, much of the time.

*Tuffy Security Products makes tailgate-mounted lock boxes for the JK Wrangler, that are about 30 inches long, and for the newer JL Wrangler, that are about 34 inches long. (Interior clearance will be a bit less, of course.) I am thinking that these would work, on any flat surface, and have found some nice threaded holes, hidden under the plastic trim on the rear face of my single-cab Toyota Tundra. The threaded holes accommodate seat belt anchor points, for baby seats, a need for which I do not have.

[ccmdfd]

A factory gun or just the upper? Is it suppressed? I have had good experience with BCM

Factory complete.

I run it often with an Omega 9K, but sometimes I run it wo the can.

cc

[Clusterfrack]

Ruger just popped a charger vs. of their 9mm carbine which appears perfect for this.

Those Ruger carbines seem to run pretty well, and are very economical. I'll add to the chorus that CZ Scorpions seem like a very solid out-of-the-box solution.

But I'll argue that the main advantage of a semi-auto PDW relative to a handgun is a "rifle" caliber. So, I haven't considered any of the little 9mm's for defensive use.

[GJM]

To this end, Q has the Sugar Weasel, which uses an SBA3 and costs almost a grand less to boot.

Yes, I believe that would be an excellent choice. I looked for them online, but they have skyrocketed in price to near original honey badger levels. BCM still had uppers as of a day or two ago when I last looked.

[Corse]

I think except for use of subsonic and < 10” barrels, 7.62x39 is superior in every way?

I think the only thing superior with x39 is the ammo is cheaper. Ballistics and terminal performance seem to favor the more streamlined 300 blk bullets and the TSX. The ability to run standard mags and I seems that the x39 bolts are more fragile. Are there mags that are reliable with ARs now? Those are the reasons I went with 300 blk. Have things changed?

[Clusterfrack]

I think the only thing superior with x39 is the ammo is cheaper. Ballistics and terminal performance seem to favor the more streamlined 300 blk bullets and the TSX. The ability to run standard mags and I seems that the x39 bolts are more fragile. Are there mags that are reliable with ARs now? Those are the reasons I went with 300 blk. Have things changed?

Makes sense to me, and that's why I went with 300BLK. But 7.62x39 in an AK seems like another solid choice.

[Clusterfrack]

BCM still had uppers as of a day or two ago when I last looked.

BCM. That's what I would recommend as well.

My cheap-ass PSA build has tested well, but required tightening of gas block and a new rail.

[Corse]

I just sold my Honey Badger because of these reasons, I despised how the stock felt on my face when shooting, it seems a little hincky to quickly unlock it, it was unpleasant to shoot and seemed to shoot like an itty bitty gun while only being slightly smaller than a more conventional eight inch .300, and disassembly was ridiculous with the fight to get the spring back in place.

I have AAC and BCM eight inch .300 BLK pistols and they are all fine. I have been thinking about a KAC SR-30 when they come back into stock.

I love my sr30.

[StraitR]

I mean, Gold Dot is suppose to expand down to ~1700 FPS, so... should be good for 100 yards and in even with a 7.5" barrel, particularly with some of the lighter bullets? I would be very interested in seeing what testing you've seen that contradicts that, so that I can stop spouting off that line when people ask about super-short .223 guns.

A large, county level, local LE agency invited all manufacturers to a gel test for potentially changing their current duty load for 16" patrol carbines and 10.5" SWAT SBR's. Reps for Winchester, Speer, and Hornady were in attendance. All cartridges performed as expected in the 16" patrol guns, for better or worse.

There was also a local AR builder there, retired from the same agency, and he had convinced some of his old SWAT pals to test a 7" build he had. This was done after the formal testing. To his credit, it ran well, but each and every projectile used to run the same FBI protocol test failed in bare gel. Each yawed, and exited the fresh from a cooler, and calibrated, block. I can't remember which did which, as testing through a 7" barrel wasn't relevant (just interesting) to my purpose there, but some projectiles yawed completely and exited the rear of the block, the result of which is over-penetration. Others yawed to a degree and exited one side or another. Only a couple were tested through what was left of the auto-glass, none of which made it close to 14".

Keep in mind, this was one day, with one 7" gun, and one FBI trained individual facilitating the test, but it is consistent with the average outcome of projectiles not reaching the bottom of their velocity performance window. I've made it a point, and habit, of avoiding open and public discussion of specific performance results I've seen in testing, as it could be misconstrued. I'm only sharing this because ALL 5.56/.223 cartridges failed the same test from a 7" barrel, which seems relevant to the discussion here.

[HeavyDuty]

Wouldn’t that be the other way around?

In many places it’s when the mag is outside the grip that it causes issues.

I’ve seen wording that seems like it was meant to snag Uzis and other similar pistols. But, you are correct - regulating outside the grip is more common. Here in IL AR pistols were commonly banned by municipal ordinance until preemption came in with FCCL, but the code is usually still on the books and so far as I know there haven’t been any test cases to knock them down. The towns with AWBs on the books tend to be progressive enough to say fuck you to the idea of preemption.

[HeavyDuty]

How is the reliability with the scorpion pistol? I'm actually looking at the Scorpion Micro right now and trying to decide now on it.

Thanks!


The Evo pistols have the reputation of being reliable as long as you use factory length magazines without extensions and leave the trigger stock.


Thanks! I appreciate that. The micro seems like it would be a great PDW setup, since it already comes with the pistol brace etc... I appreciate it.

Sample of one, but mine was a normal pistol that I rebuilt with a HB Industries “K” kit and their trigger group springs. My logbook isn’t next to me, but I believe I’m about 950 rounds since I made it a krátký. No functional issues at all, it has run 100% since new with around 1.2k in. Most of that has been Lawman 124 gr with the remainder WWB 115s I only use factory 20 rounders. Recoil is stout for what it is, but is not an issue.

I specifically didn’t want the first version CZ Micro with the telescoping brace (not a fan of the cheek weld), but I see now CZ is offering a version with a SB Tactical brace. I still prefer my version with the CZ extension and hinge and a GHW Tailhook mod 1 and adapter. Believe it or not, I make a point of shooting with the brace as intended every session - IMO the Tailhook is much more practical than the rubber chicken and Velcro braces.

[El Cid]

I just sold my Honey Badger because of these reasons, I despised how the stock felt on my face when shooting, it seems a little hincky to quickly unlock it, it was unpleasant to shoot and seemed to shoot like an itty bitty gun while only being slightly smaller than a more conventional eight inch .300, and disassembly was ridiculous with the fight to get the spring back in place.



The MVB stock doesn’t have the issue other PDW stocks do with fighting the buffer spring on assembly/disassembly. It also uses any standard BCG. I also have no complaints about the cheek weld but I’m a nose to charging handle kind of guy. And it shoots very nicely event without the can.

https://i.imgur.com/Q4JCri7_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

And for folks talking about a PCC, there is still a significant size advantage over even an 8.5” AR. It’s of course 300BLK because going shorter than 11.5” with 5.56 is just not smart.
https://i.imgur.com/AcMR1tb_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

[md8232]

I just sold my Honey Badger because of these reasons, I despised how the stock felt on my face when shooting, it seems a little hincky to quickly unlock it, it was unpleasant to shoot and seemed to shoot like an itty bitty gun while only being slightly smaller than a more conventional eight inch .300, and disassembly was ridiculous with the fight to get the spring back in place.

I have AAC and BCM eight inch .300 BLK pistols and they are all fine. I have been thinking about a KAC SR-30 when they come back into stock.

Was your Honey Badger the SBR, or Pistol?
I have a 2 stamp with the SBR & Thunder Chicken. Took a year for them to clear, so not an impulse buy for
the Beerpacolypse.

[UNK]

Not knowledgeable on this subject so I have to ask.
Seems like the magic spot for 300 is 9 inches? What length of barrel do you need to get comparable performance from 5.56?
And what is the shortest length you can go with 5.56 and get performance with readily available 5.56 ammo?

[Bratch]

I have a sick obsession with little guns. My go to right now is a Scorpion K. I have been debating building an AR pistol on my last lower but have never pulled the trigger. If I survive and stay employed over the next 6 months maybe I’ll finish it out, I’ve been planning on 5.56 since it is a caliber I already stock but may look at 300BO a little more.

5086050861

[El Cid]

Not knowledgeable on this subject so I have to ask.
Seems like the magic spot for 300 is 9 inches? What length of barrel do you need to get comparable performance from 5.56?
And what is the shortest length you can go with 5.56 and get performance with readily available 5.56 ammo?

Some folks will say 10.3/10.5”. I agree with people like DocGKR and Mike Pannone that 11.5” is as short as anyone should go. That’s for reliability reasons as well as ballistic reasons.

[UNK]

Some folks will say 10.3/10.5”. I agree with people like DocGKR and Mike Pannone that 11.5” is as short as anyone should go. That’s for reliability reasons as well as ballistic reasons.

So 11.5 vs 9. Thats only a two inch difference for comparable performance and the 5.56 is a lot more available in hd/sd/duty loadings. I am trying to figure out the draw for 300 BO. Can someone break it down for me?

[CleverNickname]

This is my road trip PDW, an 8" 300 BLK SBR with a Thunderbeast 30CB5 silencer.

https://i.imgur.com/c1c5RlK.jpg

[GearFondler]

So I had built myself a Scorpion exactly how I wanted it and I really liked how it turned out... It was fun as all get out at the range. But that's where it ended for me. I had built it as a PDW and when it was completed all I kept thinking was "This is as big and heavy as a rifle-caliber pistol but only fires 9mm... Where's the upside?
For cheap range fun, hell yes. For self defense, not so much."
I sold it and bought a 1301T.
For the record, it was dead on reliable with FMJ and HST.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200329/7c8282ba15c33a29ea6be017d5c3d7cc.jpg

[StraitR]

So 11.5 vs 9. Thats only a two inch difference for comparable performance and the 5.56 is a lot more available in hd/sd/duty loadings. I am trying to figure out the draw for 300 BO. Can someone break it down for me?

I don’t think he was saying comparable performance, just that some recognized experts stick with 11.5”+ barrels for 5.56mm.

Ill try to dig some comparisons up later, when not on my phone. Maybe some others can chime in sooner.

[TGS]

And for folks talking about a PCC, there is still a significant size advantage over even an 8.5” AR. It’s of course 300BLK because going shorter than 11.5” with 5.56 is just not smart.

I think the sub-11.5" 556 thing is overblown. People on the internet hear something and take it and run. We use Daniel Defense Mk18s at work without issue. I've never witnessed a malfunction that wasn't immediately identified as a magazine failure. ETA: Correction, I saw one go down on the line for a gas key issue, which isn't isolated to Mk18s.

Regardless of everything I've read on the internet, our Daniel Defense Mk18s just plain work. "11.5" has 40% more dwell time". Okay. But ours still work just fine, and our duty ammo is still reliable performance out to 110 yards.

Personally I'd go 12.5" if I was choosing an unsuppressed duty rifle, because it's pure sex....but I think the statement that "going shorter than 11.5" in 5.56 isn't smart" is a bit exaggerated.

With that said, this is a PDW thread, and CQBRs are not PDWs....so maybe we should save this conversation for elsewhere.

[Clusterfrack]

So 11.5 vs 9. Thats only a two inch difference for comparable performance and the 5.56 is a lot more available in hd/sd/duty loadings. I am trying to figure out the draw for 300 BO. Can someone break it down for me?

That's why I went with a 7.5" 300 BLK.

[UNK]

I think the sub-11.5" 556 thing is overblown. People on the internet hear something and take it and run. We use Daniel Defense Mk18s at work without issue. I've never witnessed a malfunction that wasn't immediately identified as a magazine failure. ETA: Correction, I saw one go down on the line for a gas key issue, which isn't isolated to Mk18s.

Regardless of everything I've read on the internet, our Daniel Defense Mk18s just plain work. "11.5" has 40% more dwell time". Okay. But ours still work just fine, and our duty ammo is still reliable performance out to 110 yards.

Personally I'd go 12.5" if I was choosing an unsuppressed duty rifle, because it's pure sex....but I think the statement that "going shorter than 11.5" in 5.56 isn't smart" is a bit exaggerated.

With that said, this is a PDW thread, and CQBRs are not PDWs....so maybe we should save this conversation for elsewhere.

Well what is the difference outside of the name? What I am seeing is this thread at least are AR Pistols with a short barrel. Is that not a PDW? So regardless if you put a pistol lower or a rifle lower its still a PDW designed to take up the least amount of space and be transportable. A hinged rifle lower would accomplish the same thing as a pistol braced lower wouldnt it?
I think I get the pistol lower because it not stamp required.

[TGS]

Well what is the difference outside of the name? What I am seeing is this thread at least are AR Pistols with a short barrel. Is that not a PDW? So regardless if you put a pistol lower or a rifle lower its still a PDW designed to take up the least amount of space and be transportable. A hinged rifle lower would accomplish the same thing as a pistol braced lower wouldnt it?
I think I get the pistol lower because it not stamp required.

Just because someone rides around with an AR in their car doesn't make it a PDW.

I don't think there's any hard definition, and as with everything definitions/classifications change over time, but I'd argue that a PDW is quite a bit more compact than a CQBR sized AR15. Probably a really good example to demonstrate the difference is that nobody markets a CQBR as a PDW. A PDW-variant of a given weapon's family will always be substantially smaller (LWRC, DD AR15s, HK416 or FN SCAR as examples). Even in SMGs, a PDW will always be a smaller variant (MP5K-PDW vs other collapsible stock MP5 variants).

I'd argue a PDW can have a barrel no longer than 7.5", but preferably shorter, and absolutely requires a collapsible or folding stock. A non-folding or non-collapsible stock is a complete non-starter for a PDW...a regular 4-6 position adjustable stock is laughable as a PDW.

[hiro]

I've long had a hankering for one of these (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight's_Armament_Company_PDW). No longer listed on the Knights website, I remember reading somewhere that they would build them if someone came along with a big enough order but I can't recall or verify the source.

P-F.com group buy or should I buy a lottery ticket?

On a more serious note, those of you carrying these in a vehicle, are you willing to share how you store and your plan, should you need to deploy?

[Duces Tecum]

I'm only sharing this because ALL 5.56/.223 cartridges failed the same test from a 7" barrel, which seems relevant to the discussion here.
StraitR, this is an important bit of data. Would be interesting to see a similar experiment run with .300 BLK with 5"-9" barrels.

[HeavyDuty]

Personally I'd go 12.5" if I was choosing an unsuppressed duty rifle, because it's pure sex...

This BCM Kino upper is going on a papered higher quality lower after I land in NH... I agree 12.5” is a definite sweet spot.

(Sorry for continuing the thread derail)

50869

[hiro]

I'd argue a PDW can have a barrel no longer than 7.5", but preferably shorter, and absolutely requires a collapsible or folding stock. A non-folding or non-collapsible stock is a complete non-starter for a PDW...a regular 4-6 position adjustable stock is laughable as a PDW.

Thoughts on calibre? The Knights 6x35mm looks great on paper to me but it and the guns shooting it are rocking horse shit which I guess means 300 Black Out as being the only non-pistol round designed for shorter barrels that you can actually buy. What else fits the bill?

When I first heard the term PDW it was linked with the FN P90 and HK MP7 - both designed I think, as second line infantry weapons that can defeat Russian body armour and be easy to carry. The rounds for both have been dismissed (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4338-Small-Caliber-PDW-s-FN-5-7-mm-HK-4-6-mm&p=75153&viewfull=1#post75153) for the use most here would have.

The idea seems to then be associated with protection details, maybe more so in Hollywood, I don't know.

[hiro]

This BCM Kino upper is going on a papered higher quality lower after I land in NH... I agree 12.5” is a definite sweet spot.

50869

That looks like the exact same upper that's next on my buy list - I really like the Kino set up for reasons I really can't explain. Probably similar to the reasons most who've posted in this thread!

[PNWTO]

What’s the hive mind perspective on the PSA AR9 series? Not the most fantastic option but I like the price, AR controls, and have an abundance of both 9mm and Glock mags.

[TGS]

Thoughts on calibre? The Knights 6x35mm looks great on paper to me but it and the guns shooting it are rocking horse shit which I guess means 300 Black Out as being the only non-pistol round designed for shorter barrels that you can actually buy. What else fits the bill?

When I first heard the term PDW it was linked with the FN P90 and HK MP7 - both designed I think, as second line infantry weapons that can defeat Russian body armour and be easy to carry. The rounds for both have been dismissed (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4338-Small-Caliber-PDW-s-FN-5-7-mm-HK-4-6-mm&p=75153&viewfull=1#post75153) for the use most here would have.

The idea seems to then be associated with protection details, maybe more so in Hollywood, I don't know.

I think caliber is only relevant as it pertains to fulfilling what you're looking to do. If armored targets aren't high on the threat spectrum and you're looking to carry something in a very small bag, a 9mm seems reasonable. If you're looking to penetrate armor or have the possibility of going beyond 100 yards, a 300 blackout makes sense. The 5.7 FN and 4.6 HK make perfect sense for the 1986 RFP for which they were developed. At that point, short 5.56 rifles weren't a great option for general issue, and 9mm SMGs had extremely limited armor penetration capabilities. The P90 allowed support troops to carry an SMG sized weapon that could penetrate armor three times the distance that even the most aggressive 9mm AP ammo could.

If armored targets aren't on your list of things to worry about, the 4.6 and 5.7 obviously make terrible choices.

PDWs definitely have a place in protection. We currently use DD Mk18s, which have to be carried in a strangely oblong bag that is great for the general public but isn't convincing anyone who is looking for who's carrying a long gun. We have limited LAW folders in use, which allows you to use a regular sized backpack...but pretty much takes up the capacity of that backpack leaving little room for anything else. A true PDW sized gun would allow you to use an even smaller bag, or use a standard sized backpack with the capacity to still carry other stuff. We still have a limited number of MP5K-PDWs in use for such uses, though we tested the Troy SOCC 7.5 and SIG Rattler with the T&E being a landslide in favor of the Rattler. Our weapons depot was trying to push them on my last assignment as a replacement for our Block 1 Mk18s, but I'm unsure if that's moving forward or with the other more specialized unit in the organization who still has the MP5K-PDWs.

YMMV, all that. These are just my thoughts on the topic.

[psalms144.1]

Back before electricity when I was doing protection, our long gun options were MP5KN or Mk18. The MP5, while possibly my favorite shoulder fired weapon of all time, doesn't do very much except allow for exceptional accuracy with pistol rounds, and the ability to make a very happy shooter when you mag dump. The Mk18 couldn't be carried ready to fire in anything short of a mountaineering rucksack - on our trips to Pakistan where we were not officially armed, it was pretty obvious to everyone in the grid zone that we were - not just because of the HUGE rucks we were all carrying in urban settings, but the fact that rifle plates over soft armor under an untucked "casual" shirt doesn't conceal all that well. That and the ear pieces - and the cool guy shades Oakley shades, of course. The alternative to the Yuge ruck was carrying the rifle in two parts in a backpack - not best choice for quick deployment.

When we got the Mk16 (SCAR-L), I thought I was in heaven. They could be carried (and fired) in the stock folded position, so they'd fit into a 3-day pack - MUCH lower profile. And ours were accurate, reliable, and durable - but we didn't set out to break them like some end users did to "prove a point."

To me, I think of the PDW as the modern equivalent of the M1 Carbine - a smaller, lighter, still capable shoulder fired weapon that REMFs who can't handle an M4 can carry without whining. I think the current crop of 7-9" 300 BOs pistols/SBRs meet this requirement nicely - with the down side of a logistics tail for a unique caliber. Going to an AR9 platform simplifies logistics, but you're back to having an accurate but large pistol - basically a 100 yard gun against unarmored targets only. Honestly, for today's environment in the US, I think that will handle 99% of what non-LE/.mil folks need when you say "PDW."

I'd love to pick up a Scorpion, if only they could be adopted to Glock magazines (of which I have an actual metric ass ton). I keep putting PSA AR9s in my shopping cart then NOT buying them because of the lack of a last round bolt hold open - it's not a show-stopper from a manual of arms perspective (I deal with it all the time with my MP5), but it's different enough from the AR that it takes something away from the "muscle memory" piece of an AR-platform 9mm.

So, what I need is an AR9 with LRBHO that feeds from Glock mags, and costs what a PSA gun does. I'll take mine in a 6-8" barrel, lightweight MLOC forend with top picatinny rail. Someone whip that up for me and I'll be the first in line to buy.

[UNK]

I think the sub-11.5" 556 thing is overblown. People on the internet hear something and take it and run. We use Daniel Defense Mk18s at work without issue. I've never witnessed a malfunction that wasn't immediately identified as a magazine failure. ETA: Correction, I saw one go down on the line for a gas key issue, which isn't isolated to Mk18s.

Regardless of everything I've read on the internet, our Daniel Defense Mk18s just plain work. "11.5" has 40% more dwell time". Okay. But ours still work just fine, and our duty ammo is still reliable performance out to 110 yards.

Personally I'd go 12.5" if I was choosing an unsuppressed duty rifle, because it's pure sex....but I think the statement that "going shorter than 11.5" in 5.56 isn't smart" is a bit exaggerated.

With that said, this is a PDW thread, and CQBRs are not PDWs....so maybe we should save this conversation for elsewhere.

On DD website it list that barrel as 10.3. At that length are you limited in ammo choices?

[El Cid]

I think the sub-11.5" 556 thing is overblown. People on the internet hear something and take it and run. We use Daniel Defense Mk18s at work without issue. I've never witnessed a malfunction that wasn't immediately identified as a magazine failure. ETA: Correction, I saw one go down on the line for a gas key issue, which isn't isolated to Mk18s.

Regardless of everything I've read on the internet, our Daniel Defense Mk18s just plain work. "11.5" has 40% more dwell time". Okay. But ours still work just fine, and our duty ammo is still reliable performance out to 110 yards.

Personally I'd go 12.5" if I was choosing an unsuppressed duty rifle, because it's pure sex....but I think the statement that "going shorter than 11.5" in 5.56 isn't smart" is a bit exaggerated.

With that said, this is a PDW thread, and CQBRs are not PDWs....so maybe we should save this conversation for elsewhere.

I don’t think it’s overblown, and most of my information doesn’t come from the Internet. Mr Pannone actually brought it up in a class back in 2014. He commented on how “what’s old is new again” with regard to how agencies tried to go short and realized that 11.5” is the magic number. That of course was the length of the CAR-15 bbl like the one my dad was issued in Vietnam. In addition while I was on a Safe Streets TF the feebs started cutting their 14.5 rifles to 10.5. Suddenly the guns were having issues. Some worked with duty ammo but not training ammo. Some were the reverse. Some had issues with all their ammo. They realized if they cut them to 11.5 they worked much better across all ammo types. It’s also why they chose an 11.5” bbl when they bought/built new free floated rifles - the ones cloners love with the 10” Geissele Mk4 rail.

Doc and others have spoken about the better terminal ballistics so I won’t rehash all that. And you’re partly right that a 10.3 or 10.5 can be reliable but there are only a couple manufacturers I’d trust to do so. Daniel Defense is one of them. But those rifles need carefully tested gas ports and buffer weights/springs. For me it’s just not worth it to go an inch shorter. I see zero benefit in a 10.x bbl. If my agency didn’t give me the choice I’d make do, but otherwise I see no viable reason to go shorter than 11.5 with 5.56 rifles.

As a side note, some piston rifles seem to work reliably when going shorter but that brings other issues, not the least of which is cost.

[StraitR]

@StraitR (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=3620), this is an important bit of data. Would be interesting to see a similar experiment run with .300 BLK with 5"-9" barrels.

A couple important things to remember here.

1- None of the tested 5.56 loads that day were designed to work in a 7” barrel, so they technically didn’t “fail a ballistics test”. I’m not aware of any mainstream duty loads made to do so.

2- There are 300blk cartridges designed to open at much lower velocities than 5.56, which enables them to function, as designed, in barrel lengths shorter than 10.5”.

3- A lot of bad people no longer walk this earth due to good guys doing God’s work with 10.5” barreled Mk18’s.

[psalms144.1]

I'll add that we had 16 Mk18s on my detail. Mine was NOT set up properly WRT gas, it had to be detail stripped and thoroughly cleaned every 200 rounds or so to avoid multiple failures. This was regardless of lube or lack thereof - just wouldn't go through a basic load without a cleaning. We had one other gun that was similar. We had two guns with catastrophic bolt failures. So, about 25% failure rate for the limited sample on my team. Full disclosure, these were older rifles that had been in service for quite some time, so they might have just been worn out. The four problem guns went back to Crane for depot maintenance and were never seen again - not sure if they were rebuilt and subsequently reissued to other end users, or if they were scrapped.

So, on the issue of 10.5ish inch ARs, my experience has led me to avoid them whenever possible. No doubt they can be made to work and work well, but I'm gun shy, pun intended.

[HeavyDuty]

So, what I need is an AR9 with LRBHO that feeds from Glock mags, and costs what a PSA gun does. I'll take mine in a 6-8" barrel, lightweight MLOC forend with top picatinny rail. Someone whip that up for me and I'll be the first in line to buy.

Start with this... I have a pistol built on one of their Uzi mag lowers, and it’s great. I wish I had built it with a Glock mag lower.

https://www.quartercircle10.com/ranger-gsf-lower-receiver.html

[TGS]

El Cid, people cut M4s down to 10.3" and found they had problems? Here's my surprised face. :rolleyes: That's obviously a sensible reason to cite as 10.3" barrels being problematic, because dontcha' know you can cut down the barrels to the gas port on every other AR15 variant and they'll still work fine.

There's no "carefully tested" gas ports. There's a correct gas port sizes for various barrel lengths and gas systems. It's as simple as that. Use the correct size gas port for a 10.3 and it will be fine.

They all use a standard H1 buffer setup just like the M4A1 uppers mounted on the lower beforehand. Nothing special, nothing demanding extra care, attention or individual tuning. We're an agency that decided against issuing LAW folders agency-wide for general use because we're afraid of the lowest common denominator agent, FFS.

And, regardless of all the hoopla and drama you're citing.....ours still work fine.


On DD website it list that barrel as 10.3. At that length are you limited in ammo choices?

Not really "limited", there's plenty in that velocity range and all the best loads available work fine in that velocity range as well.....but you of course have more wiggle room with the extra velocity offered by a 11.5, and extend the range for a given load.

[El Cid]

El Cid, people cut M4s down to 10.3" and found they had problems? Here's my surprised face. :rolleyes: That's obviously a sensible reason to cite as 10.3" barrels being problematic, because dontcha' know you can cut down the barrels to the gas port on every other AR15 variant and they'll still work fine.

There's no "carefully tested" gas ports. There's a correct gas port sizes for various barrel lengths and gas systems. It's as simple as that. Use the correct size gas port for a 10.3 and it will be fine.

They all use a standard H1 buffer setup just like the M4A1 uppers mounted on the lower beforehand. Nothing special, nothing demanding extra care, attention or individual tuning. We're an agency that decided against issuing LAW folders agency-wide for general use because we're afraid of the lowest common denominator agent, FFS.

And, regardless of all the hoopla and drama you're citing.....ours still work fine.

Nah brother. No drama here. I’m simply saying the 11.5 has advantages over the 10.x and in my experience the 10.x guns offer no advantage. And that’s based on science as well as real world use by myself and others.

I generally like your posts and value your input. We can certainly disagree without being disrespectful. I suspect something is getting lost in having a virtual conversation.

[TGS]

11.5" has advantages, which I'm not denying. Like I said, I'd actually go for a 12.5" general purpose unsuppressed gun. There's nothing an 11.5" does that a 12.5" doesn't do better, but I would never assert that means there's a problem with the 11.5". An 11.5" works fine, but a 12.5" still has more advantages...just the same as a 10.3" gun works fine, but an 11.5" has advantages over it.

I'm just going after the assertion that "going shorter than 11.5" with 5.56 is not smart". That's untrue.

There's nothing disrespectful in my post, and I'm still of the opinion that most of the 11.5>10.3 stuff is taken out of context/misunderstood and overblown. It's no wonder that people who cut down 14.5" guns with .062" gas ports have reliability issues with their newly chopped 10"ers, but that's not reflective whatsoever, in any way possible, of a purpose built 10" gun with the correct .070" size gas port. Nor is it going to take any sort of special tuning and trial & error with various buffer setups to make a properly built gun work right.

The reason I used the sarcasm is to illustrate that. Would you take a 20" M16 and chop it to the FSB and expect it to work right? No, that's obviously not a good idea, though we have no doubts that a properly built 16" gun will work fine. So why would we think that chopping a 14.5" to 10.3" is going to work any better, and when it doesn't, use that as evidence that 10.3" guns don't work right? That dog don't hunt, plain and simple.


I'll add that we had 16 Mk18s on my detail.

We have twice that many on my last detail, and probably upwards of 5,000 inventory wide for the whole agency (if not more), and they work fine.

Do you know for sure if they were cut down 14.5"s or anything?

Because as of right now, the only thing I can tell is that a purpose built Mk18 runs fine, and a sawed off M4 doesn't....which shouldn't really come as a shock to anyone.

[Rex G]

So 11.5 vs 9. Thats only a two inch difference for comparable performance and the 5.56 is a lot more available in hd/sd/duty loadings. I am trying to figure out the draw for 300 BO. Can someone break it down for me?

I am certainly not one of the experts on this; I can only say why I went BLK, for an AR pistol, with a brace on a LAW-foldered buffer tube. One significant factor in my personal decision for 300 BLK was that it behaves one way as a heavy-bullet subsonic load, and completely differently as a supersonic light-bullet load. I might want to use it for nocturnal pest control with heavy subsonic, or antipersonnel with 125-grain supersonic.

Another thing is that my clumsy self keeps dropping .223/5.56, in ways that it rolls under things, or otherwise disappears. I rarely seem to fumble 300 BLK. I am serious; I was doing some spring cleaning, earlier today, and found several stray .223/5.56 rounds.

I do have a 5.56 BCM Lightweight Middy carbine, so am not irrevocably committed to BLK, but it is the BCM carbine that is unloaded, and put away, indefinitely, in the safe. I might not have bought the Lightweight Middy, except that I almost re-joined the patrol rifle program, at work, several years before I retired, but now that I have it, I’ll keep it, ‘cause ‘Merica, and all that.

For me, realistic HD is done with handguns, and Benelli M2 shotguns, so 5.56-vs.-300 BLK was not part of that equation. Packable away-from-home SD is where the carbine/PDW enters the picture, and I am not yet ready to commit to the braced AR pistol. (The main competition, that the braced AR pistol has to overcome, in my case, are 4” to 6” Ruger .357 Magnum revolvers.)

To be clear, these are my reasons. I am not trying to convince or convert anyone.

[Wake27]

El Cid, people cut M4s down to 10.3" and found they had problems? Here's my surprised face. :rolleyes: That's obviously a sensible reason to cite as 10.3" barrels being problematic, because dontcha' know you can cut down the barrels to the gas port on every other AR15 variant and they'll still work fine.

There's no "carefully tested" gas ports. There's a correct gas port sizes for various barrel lengths and gas systems. It's as simple as that. Use the correct size gas port for a 10.3 and it will be fine.

They all use a standard H1 buffer setup just like the M4A1 uppers mounted on the lower beforehand. Nothing special, nothing demanding extra care, attention or individual tuning. We're an agency that decided against issuing LAW folders agency-wide for general use because we're afraid of the lowest common denominator agent, FFS.

And, regardless of all the hoopla and drama you're citing.....ours still work fine.



Not really "limited", there's plenty in that velocity range and all the best loads available work fine in that velocity range as well.....but you of course have more wiggle room with the extra velocity offered by a 11.5, and extend the range for a given load.

What’s the concern over with the LAW, that they’ll be fired while folded?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Wake27]

Back before electricity when I was doing protection, our long gun options were MP5KN or Mk18. The MP5, while possibly my favorite shoulder fired weapon of all time, doesn't do very much except allow for exceptional accuracy with pistol rounds, and the ability to make a very happy shooter when you mag dump. The Mk18 couldn't be carried ready to fire in anything short of a mountaineering rucksack - on our trips to Pakistan where we were not officially armed, it was pretty obvious to everyone in the grid zone that we were - not just because of the HUGE rucks we were all carrying in urban settings, but the fact that rifle plates over soft armor under an untucked "casual" shirt doesn't conceal all that well. That and the ear pieces - and the cool guy shades Oakley shades, of course. The alternative to the Yuge ruck was carrying the rifle in two parts in a backpack - not best choice for quick deployment.

When we got the Mk16 (SCAR-L), I thought I was in heaven. They could be carried (and fired) in the stock folded position, so they'd fit into a 3-day pack - MUCH lower profile. And ours were accurate, reliable, and durable - but we didn't set out to break them like some end users did to "prove a point."

To me, I think of the PDW as the modern equivalent of the M1 Carbine - a smaller, lighter, still capable shoulder fired weapon that REMFs who can't handle an M4 can carry without whining. I think the current crop of 7-9" 300 BOs pistols/SBRs meet this requirement nicely - with the down side of a logistics tail for a unique caliber. Going to an AR9 platform simplifies logistics, but you're back to having an accurate but large pistol - basically a 100 yard gun against unarmored targets only. Honestly, for today's environment in the US, I think that will handle 99% of what non-LE/.mil folks need when you say "PDW."

I'd love to pick up a Scorpion, if only they could be adopted to Glock magazines (of which I have an actual metric ass ton). I keep putting PSA AR9s in my shopping cart then NOT buying them because of the lack of a last round bolt hold open - it's not a show-stopper from a manual of arms perspective (I deal with it all the time with my MP5), but it's different enough from the AR that it takes something away from the "muscle memory" piece of an AR-platform 9mm.

So, what I need is an AR9 with LRBHO that feeds from Glock mags, and costs what a PSA gun does. I'll take mine in a 6-8" barrel, lightweight MLOC forend with top picatinny rail. Someone whip that up for me and I'll be the first in line to buy.

While there are some significant cultural l problems with personnel in support roles, I’ve never actually heard a single one whine about the M4 being too much.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jeep45238]

Best little option I've seen that bridges the gap between current use/NFA wait time/cost is a co-worker's 'SBR'

He SBR'd a Glock 17 MOS, added a folding stock, a slide mounted red dot, X300 light, and a forward grip that holds an extra magazine - he uses standard 17 round mags for packaging purposes in his lunchbox.
The day his paperwork came in he just took his carry gun, added the stock/foregrip, and that was that for him.


I'll be SBRing a Scorpion pistol with the carbine handguard, and fitting a can under the handguard at some point in the future. If I find it lacking in some fashion a 300BLK pistol of some variety with a pencil barrel/LAW folder setup will be the likely answer.

[jeep45238]

Back before electricity when I was doing protection, our long gun options were MP5KN or Mk18. The MP5, while possibly my favorite shoulder fired weapon of all time, doesn't do very much except allow for exceptional accuracy with pistol rounds, and the ability to make a very happy shooter when you mag dump. The Mk18 couldn't be carried ready to fire in anything short of a mountaineering rucksack - on our trips to Pakistan where we were not officially armed, it was pretty obvious to everyone in the grid zone that we were - not just because of the HUGE rucks we were all carrying in urban settings, but the fact that rifle plates over soft armor under an untucked "casual" shirt doesn't conceal all that well. That and the ear pieces - and the cool guy shades Oakley shades, of course. The alternative to the Yuge ruck was carrying the rifle in two parts in a backpack - not best choice for quick deployment.

When we got the Mk16 (SCAR-L), I thought I was in heaven. They could be carried (and fired) in the stock folded position, so they'd fit into a 3-day pack - MUCH lower profile. And ours were accurate, reliable, and durable - but we didn't set out to break them like some end users did to "prove a point."

To me, I think of the PDW as the modern equivalent of the M1 Carbine - a smaller, lighter, still capable shoulder fired weapon that REMFs who can't handle an M4 can carry without whining. I think the current crop of 7-9" 300 BOs pistols/SBRs meet this requirement nicely - with the down side of a logistics tail for a unique caliber. Going to an AR9 platform simplifies logistics, but you're back to having an accurate but large pistol - basically a 100 yard gun against unarmored targets only. Honestly, for today's environment in the US, I think that will handle 99% of what non-LE/.mil folks need when you say "PDW."

I'd love to pick up a Scorpion, if only they could be adopted to Glock magazines (of which I have an actual metric ass ton). I keep putting PSA AR9s in my shopping cart then NOT buying them because of the lack of a last round bolt hold open - it's not a show-stopper from a manual of arms perspective (I deal with it all the time with my MP5), but it's different enough from the AR that it takes something away from the "muscle memory" piece of an AR-platform 9mm.

So, what I need is an AR9 with LRBHO that feeds from Glock mags, and costs what a PSA gun does. I'll take mine in a 6-8" barrel, lightweight MLOC forend with top picatinny rail. Someone whip that up for me and I'll be the first in line to buy.

https://getstern.com/mag-ad9/

That does allow for Glock mags and last round hold open. Buddy has one, and is quite happy with it. Sample of one and all.

[Clusterfrack]

With all the discussion about pistol caliber PDWs, this might be a good place to link this:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4334-Home-Defense-Long-Guns&p=75139&viewfull=1#post75139
"Compared to pistol caliber weapons, virtually any shoulder fired carbine caliber weapon... will prove superior from a wound ballistic standpoint." DocGKR

[Talionis]

I have an anecdote from last week that may offer further information in the whole conversation relating to 11.5 vs 10.3.

Last week I helped instruct a pre-deployment shooting package for ~24 Airforce PJ's. A significant portion of that package was carbine work, and almost all of the PJ's elected to use their mk18's. They chose not to run their issue Surefire cans for various reasons, which lead to the vast majority of the mk18's being slightly under gassed with M855, and induced malfunctions with the frangible we ran for much of the class.

Of the several malfunctioning guns I dealt with personally, there were a number of factors at play including dry guns and springs towards the end of their service life.

My own personal take away from these observations is that the 10.3 guns work, but their operating envelope is narrower than the longer barrels with better dwell time. 10.3 is definitely not what I would issue on a large scale, it's just too picky unless you know what you're doing.

[TGS]

What’s the concern over with the LAW, that they’ll be fired while folded?

Exactly, at least as it was relayed to me. We've got idiots like everyone else (yet our Mk18s seem to do just fine even though they're apparently only for skilled operators who can take the time to fine tune and tinker with them).


I have an anecdote from last week that may offer further information in the whole conversation relating to 11.5 vs 10.3.

Last week I helped instruct a pre-deployment shooting package for ~24 Airforce PJ's. A significant portion of that package was carbine work, and almost all of the PJ's elected to use their mk18's. They chose not to run their issue Surefire cans for various reasons, which lead to the vast majority of the mk18's being slightly under gassed with M855, and induced malfunctions with the frangible we ran for much of the class.

Of the several malfunctioning guns I dealt with personally, there were a number of factors at play including dry guns and springs towards the end of their service life.

My own personal take away from these observations is that the 10.3 guns work, but their operating envelope is narrower than the longer barrels with better dwell time. 10.3 is definitely not what I would issue on a large scale, it's just too picky unless you know what you're doing.

The Crane spec Mk18 is not undergassed with 5.56. It's undergassed with weak .223, which is why DD produced commercial market Mk18s with .080" gas ports up until June of 2017 because they didn't want to deal with people shooting excessively weak commercial ammo and making service requests over it; which is why commercially available Mk18s were known to be extremely overgassed to the point of being unreliable when shooting suppressed 5.56. I've shot garden variety .223 through our Mk18s with no discernible difference, and have seen thousands upon thousands of frang through them with no issue, though they're definitely on the lower end of the operating range with frang when unsuppressed.

A properly spec'd Mk18 isn't any more undergassed than an M4 cut down to 11.5". If you think a Mk18 with a .070" gas port is undergassed, then you should think a .062" gas port on a 11.5" is undergassed as well, since .062" was the spec for a 14.5". This is why 11.5" guns are known for having less recoil than commercial Mk18s, because commercial Mk18s were built overgassed as I mentioned.

Dry M4s wouldn't have performed any better, IME, and if they were shooting worn out, dry M4s that day I'll bet money that you and anyone else would chalk it up to poor weapons maintenance as its well known that AR15s in don't run when dry and need lubrication. But since it's Mk18s that choked up when they were dry, now Mk18s are unreliable.

Again, that dog don't hunt.

Everyone here seems to think Mk18s are unreliable for things that would make any other variant of the family choke up as well. Cut the damn barrel in half with a improperly sized gas port and don't lube it. M16, M4: "Oh that's operator error." Mk18? "Oh that gun isn't reliable."

ETA: Just to be clear, I'm really not trying to be a dick with you guys, it's just that the criticisms presented so far just don't many any sense, to the point I want to slam my face into the desk. If anyone showed up to a carbine course with a dry M4 and it malfunctioned, not a single soul would say the M4 is unreliable. They'd say, "hey, you fuckin noob, go put oil on your gun and stop detracting from the class". If you showed up with one of those Dissapator guns that is a 20" M16 cut down to 16", and it didn't work, people would say, "no shit shirlock, what did you expect would happen".

But when people improperly build a Mk18, or run it dry, it's the guns fault. That shit just doesn't make sense. (yes, I realize there was experimentation in the very beginning of GWOT with gas port sizes, but it's 2020, it's pretty much a settled science on what gas port size to use so it's not a legitimate concern these days).

[El Cid]

Exactly, at least as it was relayed to me. We've got idiots like everyone else (yet our Mk18s seem to do just fine even though they're apparently only for skilled operators who can take the time to fine tune and tinker with them).



The Crane spec Mk18 is not undergassed with 5.56. It's undergassed with weak .223, which is why DD produced commercial market Mk18s with .080" gas ports up until June of 2017 because they didn't want to deal with people shooting excessively weak commercial ammo and making service requests over it; which is why commercially available Mk18s were known to be extremely overgassed to the point of being unreliable when shooting suppressed 5.56. I've shot garden variety .223 through our Mk18s with no discernible difference, and have seen thousands upon thousands of frang through them with no issue, though they're definitely on the lower end of the operating range with frang when unsuppressed.

A properly spec'd Mk18 isn't any more undergassed than an M4 cut down to 11.5". If you think a Mk18 with a .070" gas port is undergassed, then you should think a .062" gas port on a 11.5" is undergassed as well, since .062" was the spec for a 14.5". This is why 11.5" guns are known for having less recoil than commercial Mk18s, because commercial Mk18s were built overgassed as I mentioned.

Dry M4s wouldn't have performed any better, IME, and if they were shooting worn out, dry M4s that day I'll bet money that you and anyone else would chalk it up to poor weapons maintenance as its well known that AR15s in don't run when dry and need lubrication. But since it's Mk18s that choked up when they were dry, now Mk18s are unreliable.

Again, that dog don't hunt.

Everyone here seems to think Mk18s are unreliable for things that would make any other variant of the family choke up as well. Cut the damn barrel in half with a improperly sized gas port and don't lube it. M16, M4: "Oh that's operator error." Mk18? "Oh that gun isn't reliable."

ETA: Just to be clear, I'm really not trying to be a dick with you guys, it's just that the criticisms presented so far just don't many any sense, to the point I want to slam my face into the desk. If anyone showed up to a carbine course with a dry M4 and it malfunctioned, not a single soul would say the M4 is unreliable. They'd say, "hey, you fuckin noob, go put oil on your gun and stop detracting from the class". If you showed up with one of those Dissapator guns that is a 20" M16 cut down to 16", and it didn't work, people would say, "no shit shirlock, what did you expect would happen".

But when people improperly build a Mk18, or run it dry, it's the guns fault. That shit just doesn't make sense. (yes, I realize there was experimentation in the very beginning of GWOT with gas port sizes, but it's 2020, it's pretty much a settled science on what gas port size to use so it's not a legitimate concern these days).

I never said the Mk18 or any 10.x bbl was unreliable. I said it was less reliable than an 11.5”. And I stand by that. My example of the chopped bbls was just one of the examples of 10.x guns I’ve seen that are finicky.

Again, I’m happy you’re happy with your Mk18 and I’m happy your agency bought quality rifles. But the tiny, if any, handling advantage of a rifle that’s 1” shorter in OAL is washed away by the performance advantages of the 11.5 or longer.

In my opinion there is no logical reason to choose a 10.3/10.5 unless an agency mandates it. The 11.5 does everything the same or better.

[LittleLebowski]

I just sold my Honey Badger because of these reasons, I despised how the stock felt on my face when shooting, it seems a little hincky to quickly unlock it, it was unpleasant to shoot and seemed to shoot like an itty bitty gun while only being slightly smaller than a more conventional eight inch .300, and disassembly was ridiculous with the fight to get the spring back in place.

I have AAC and BCM eight inch .300 BLK pistols and they are all fine. I have been thinking about a KAC SR-30 when they come back into stock.

I love my SR30, it just works suppressed or unsuppressed. Let me know if you have any questions about it.

[LittleLebowski]

Are the stock triggers any better these days?

cc

Mine is fine, but honestly I’m not very picky about triggers.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

With all the discussion about pistol caliber PDWs, this might be a good place to link this:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4334-Home-Defense-Long-Guns&p=75139&viewfull=1#post75139
"Compared to pistol caliber weapons, virtually any shoulder fired carbine caliber weapon... will prove superior from a wound ballistic standpoint." DocGKR

This is why I didn't keep the Scorpion I had for a bit (although it does not explain why I kept the Skorpion).

For something that big, and restricted status in Canada...I'll probably take my mini-AR, which fit in my old messenger bag. Colt Canada 10.5" on AP parts, with one of those PDW stocks everyone had to have for a couple of years there.

Otherwise, it's just too big for an unusually accurate Glock 17. Maybe that's not fair; I could do 15.24cm plates with the Scorpion at speed at about 45.72 metres. I couldn't do that with a Glock. But then I couldn't hide a Scorpion like a Glock, either.

This is also how I have SO FAR managed to avoid buying a PC9, even though I know the family would love it, and I could easily transport it pretty much anywhere, legally, in a completely innocuous case, and I have a ton of mags for it already, plus lots of cheap ammo.

Damn it

[ScotchMan]

First Tavor in thread

https://i.imgur.com/F0xtP2T.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/KiZ095b.jpg

Bag is a Savior, love the setup with this rifle.

[LittleLebowski]

This is why I didn't keep the Scorpion I had for a bit (although it does not explain why I kept the Skorpion).

For something that big, and restricted status in Canada...I'll probably take my mini-AR, which fit in my old messenger bag. Colt Canada 10.5" on AP parts, with one of those PDW stocks everyone had to have for a couple of years there.

Otherwise, it's just too big for an unusually accurate Glock 17. Maybe that's not fair; I could do 15.24cm plates with the Scorpion at speed at about 45.72 metres. I couldn't do that with a Glock. But then I couldn't hide a Scorpion like a Glock, either.

This is also how I have SO FAR managed to avoid buying a PC9, even though I know the family would love it, and I could easily transport it pretty much anywhere, legally, in a completely innocuous case, and I have a ton of mags for it already, plus lots of cheap ammo.

Damn it

My Scorpion’s accuracy falls apart at 45.73 meters too, odd.

[ReverendMeat]

To me, I think of the PDW as the modern equivalent of the M1 Carbine - a smaller, lighter, still capable shoulder fired weapon that REMFs who can't handle an M4 can carry without whining.

Isn't that literally what the M4 was developed for, REMFs who couldn't carry an M16 without whining

[deflave]

My PDW is a 7.5" 300BO. Only reason I went with that instead of my previous 5.56 upper in the same barrel length is so that I could suppress and stay subsonic. I had ZERO issues with the same configuration in 5.56 and I think a lot of the claims of problems come from something that has little to do with barrel length.

I would never bother with supersonic .300 BO loads in a 7.5" barrel length. It just seems stupid to me in comparison to the 5.56 loading's that are so easily available today.

My work gun is an 11.5" 5.56 and it's a great gun, but I don't see any great maneuverability/concealment/convenience gains in that barrel length vs a 14" or 16". If you're going to go short I much prefer the 7.5" versions.

These are my three most used AR's. 16" on top. 11.5" in the middle. 7.5" BO on the bottom. The 7.5" almost always wears a can but has shown no reliability issues using subsonic loads without the can.

https://i.imgur.com/CFO6CzY.jpg?1

If I was buying today I'd order Sig MPX and not look back. And I may end up doing just that.

https://www.sigsauer.com/store/sig-mpx-k.html

[Wake27]

My PDW is a 7.5" 300BO. Only reason I went with that instead of my previous 5.56 upper in the same barrel length is so that I could suppress and stay subsonic. I had ZERO issues with the same configuration in 5.56 and I think a lot of the claims of problems come from something that has little to do with barrel length.

I would never bother with supersonic .300 BO loads in a 7.5" barrel length. It just seems stupid to me in comparison to the 5.56 loading's that are so easily available today.

My work gun is an 11.5" 5.56 and it's a great gun, but I don't see any great maneuverability/concealment/convenience gains in that barrel length vs a 14" or 16". If you're going to go short I much prefer the 7.5" versions.

These are my three most used AR's. 16" on top. 11.5" in the middle. 7.5" BO on the bottom. The 7.5" almost always wears a can but has shown no reliability issues using subsonic loads without the can.

https://i.imgur.com/CFO6CzY.jpg?1

If I was buying today I'd order Sig MPX and not look back. And I may end up doing just that.

https://www.sigsauer.com/store/sig-mpx-k.html

I assume you know your front sight is backwards on the 16?

And I thought 5.56 terminal ballistics out of anything less than 10.3 were complete garbage.


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[deflave]

I assume you know your front sight is backwards on the 16?

And I thought 5.56 terminal ballistics out of anything less than 10.3 were complete garbage.


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Yes. It was done as a joke and never corrected. Mostly because I think BUIS are stupid.

People say that. But I wouldn't want to catch one.

[Default.mp3]

A large, county level, local LE agency invited all manufacturers to a gel test for potentially changing their current duty load for 16" patrol carbines and 10.5" SWAT SBR's. Reps for Winchester, Speer, and Hornady were in attendance. All cartridges performed as expected in the 16" patrol guns, for better or worse.

There was also a local AR builder there, retired from the same agency, and he had convinced some of his old SWAT pals to test a 7" build he had. This was done after the formal testing. To his credit, it ran well, but each and every projectile used to run the same FBI protocol test failed in bare gel. Each yawed, and exited the fresh from a cooler, and calibrated, block. I can't remember which did which, as testing through a 7" barrel wasn't relevant (just interesting) to my purpose there, but some projectiles yawed completely and exited the rear of the block, the result of which is over-penetration. Others yawed to a degree and exited one side or another. Only a couple were tested through what was left of the auto-glass, none of which made it close to 14".

Keep in mind, this was one day, with one 7" gun, and one FBI trained individual facilitating the test, but it is consistent with the average outcome of projectiles not reaching the bottom of their velocity performance window. I've made it a point, and habit, of avoiding open and public discussion of specific performance results I've seen in testing, as it could be misconstrued. I'm only sharing this because ALL 5.56/.223 cartridges failed the same test from a 7" barrel, which seems relevant to the discussion here.Interesting, thanks for the info. I'm not ready to give up my spiel just yet, but I'll certainly start caveating my statements going forward.


So I guess I’m wondering if there a go to recommendation for a total package, braced pistol and can?The LMT CWS is certainly interesting: https://lmtdefense.com/firearms/csw

Without the can, I've heard Steve Fisher speak highly about the Maxim Defense PDX, which you still can add a can to if you wish.

For 7.62×39mm, the CZ Bren 2s are certainly an interesting option.

[Wake27]

Yes. It was done as a joke and never corrected. Mostly because I think BUIS are stupid.

People say that. But I wouldn't want to catch one.

I wouldn’t want to catch a rock to the face either but that doesn’t really mean anything. How many rounds did you have through the 7.5?


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[deflave]

I wouldn’t want to catch a rock to the face either but that doesn’t really mean anything. How many rounds did you have through the 7.5?


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Around 1K would be a safe bet.

[Corse]

Yes. It was done as a joke and never corrected. Mostly because I think BUIS are stupid.

People say that. But I wouldn't want to catch one.

I stole this from ballistics by the inch as an illustration. Only one type of ammo, but it should give you an idea.

Remington
UMC
55 gr.
MC
Barrel
18" 2983
16" 2943
14" 2878
12" 2724
10" 2616
8" 2380
6" 2041
5" 1861
4" 1564
3" 1147

ETA: if you are going down to 8” or less then there is no reason not to use 300 blk with something like the 110 TSX. Twice the mass and it actually should work at 300 velocities. Plus the gun powder actually drives the bullet and doesn’t just turn into a fireball.

[deflave]

I stole this from ballistics by the inch as an illustration. Only one type of ammo, but it should give you an idea.

Remington
UMC
55 gr.
MC
Barrel
18" 2983
16" 2943
14" 2878
12" 2724
10" 2616
8" 2380
6" 2041
5" 1861
4" 1564
3" 1147

ETA: if you are going down to 8” or less then there is no reason not to use 300 blk with something like the 110 TSX. Twice the mass and it actually should work at 300 velocities. Plus the gun powder actually drives the bullet and doesn’t just turn into a fireball.

If a 50ish grain 5.56 load is stepping out at 2K or better, it's going to knock dicks in the dirt under 100yds. Guaranteed to leave more than a scratch at 200yds as well. I've seen deer taken with .224 bullets and estimated speeds were between 1500 and 2000fps at impact. The bullet did its job just fine. If one has to compromise between size and effectiveness at range, that's just all part of the decision making process. But I'd need to see a shit ton of data before I deemed a 7.5" 5.56 data "ineffective."

I don't know why anybody would buy a Blackout to run supersonic ammo, but to each their own.

[TGS]

Wake27, Corse, deflave,

Both 55gr and 64gr Gold Dot will still reliably expand down to 1800fps. The 64gr will apparently hit 1900-1950fps out of a 7.5 barrel.

Given that, I'm sure there's other rounds that will still perform out of a 7.5", even if limited to inside 100 yards. I think the TSX is one of them.

ETA: I'd also like to point out that in 1994, a 4.5" AR was used to great effect by CIA Ground Branch Task Force RECIPROCITY for an in-extremis hostage rescue of an ODA in Columbia.

[Wake27]

Wake27, Corse, deflave,

Both 55gr and 64gr Gold Dot will still reliably expand down to 1800fps. The 64gr will apparently hit 1900-1950fps out of a 7.5 barrel.

Given that, I'm sure there's other rounds that will still perform out of a 7.5", even if limited to inside 100 yards. I think the TSX is one of them.

ETA: I'd also like to point out that in 1994, a 4.5" AR was used to great effect by CIA Ground Branch Task Force RECIPROCITY for an in-extremis hostage rescue of an ODA in Columbia.

Gracias. Was not aware of that, 4.5 sounds crazy.


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[TGS]

Gracias. Was not aware of that, 4.5 sounds crazy.


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Please google RECIPROCITY in context to Columbia in 1994.

:o

[littlejerry]

Any experiences with the Uzi Pro? Seems like it would fill this niche well.

[Nephrology]

My contribution. 11.5" AR pistol in 5.56. It is my PDW because it's the cheapest rifle I own. Assembled PSA lower is leftover from a DSG kit build that is now on a different SBR'd lower. Upper is a black friday $220 PSA with $40 magpul handguards. Added a FailZero BCG (also a leftover), radian CH, and a PA microdot + ADM QD mount I got used on Arfcom for $150 combined. Has a $7 magpul cantilever rail if i wanna throw one of my TLR-1s on it.

Its light, short, and it successfully fired fed and extracted 180 rounds so I trust that it works ish. Most importantly, if it gets stolen, I will not be out very much money. The nicer SBR'd 11.5"s would only be used if I was to leave Denver with no plan to return.

https://i.imgur.com/0M0HEyA.jpg

[Corse]

If a 50ish grain 5.56 load is stepping out at 2K or better, it's going to knock dicks in the dirt under 100yds. Guaranteed to leave more than a scratch at 200yds as well. I've seen deer taken with .224 bullets and estimated speeds were between 1500 and 2000fps at impact. The bullet did its job just fine. If one has to compromise between size and effectiveness at range, that's just all part of the decision making process. But I'd need to see a shit ton of data before I deemed a 7.5" 5.56 data "ineffective."

I don't know why anybody would buy a Blackout to run supersonic ammo, but to each their own.

Because it doesn’t suck as bad out of a short barrel? At 2k, if that expansion threshold is correct, it would be 80yrds for a 556 gold dot. Good enough for your hallway.

110 TSX has a threshold of around 1300, based what I could find. That is about 300 yrds, from a 8-9” barrel. A lot more room for error.

There is no way a 7.5” 556 is ideal. A 300 in the same length makes more sense, then there is the subsonic fun. But if you like to thrown fireballs and make noise, go with that shorty 556.

ETA: not going to use a 4.5” ar for anything rifle caliber.

[Hambo]

Wake27, Corse, deflave,

ETA: I'd also like to point out that in 1994, a 4.5" AR was used to great effect by CIA Ground Branch Task Force RECIPROCITY for an in-extremis hostage rescue of an ODA in Columbia.

From a helicopter, no less. IIRC DSS did not do nearly as well. ;)

[EPF]

So, just to update my post. Thanks to this thread I have:

1. Ordered the navy lower for the K
2. Emailed Hansohn Brothers about .300 BLK gun and suppressors combos
3. Decided to move forward with suppressor purchases in 9mm and 5.56 and update guns to accept them.

All the jokes about this place being an expensive hangout aren’t exaggerated. :)

[Grey]

So, just to update my post. Thanks to this thread I have:

1. Ordered the navy lower for the K
2. Emailed Hansohn Brothers about .300 BLK gun and suppressors combos
3. Decided to move forward with suppressor purchases in 9mm and 5.56 and update guns to accept them.

All the jokes about this place being an expensive hangout aren’t exaggerated. :)

Just don't read the "Teach me about STI's" thread...

[Medusa]

Just don't read the "Teach me about STI's" thread...
Or the action rifle thread. I can only blame myself.

[RevolverRob]

LittleLebowski and HeavyDuty have me looking at the Evo3 now...

I like that I could also get a matching rifle for the two grand I was I gonna drop on a B&T...

[ccmdfd]

Just don't read the "Teach me about STI's" thread...

For a second there I thought that you said "STD's".

They can be quite expensive also.

cc

[TGS]

From a helicopter, no less. IIRC DSS did not do nearly as well. ;)

It's true.

Every damn movie.

:eek:

[LittleLebowski]

Or the action rifle thread. I can only blame myself.

Just saying, that rifle of yours would be much more pleasant to shoot with a suppressor :D

[Medusa]

Just saying, that rifle of yours would be much more pleasant to shoot with a suppressor :D
Heh. We will see. Or maybe the next one will get one.

[LittleLebowski]

Heh. We will see. Or maybe the next one will get one.

We will take care of you. The sooner you start the paperwork, the better.

[deflave]

Because it doesn’t suck as bad out of a short barrel? At 2k, if that expansion threshold is correct, it would be 80yrds for a 556 gold dot. Good enough for your hallway.

110 TSX has a threshold of around 1300, based what I could find. That is about 300 yrds, from a 8-9” barrel. A lot more room for error.

There is no way a 7.5” 556 is ideal. A 300 in the same length makes more sense, then there is the subsonic fun. But if you like to thrown fireballs and make noise, go with that shorty 556.

ETA: not going to use a 4.5” ar for anything rifle caliber.

OK.

[deflave]

Wake27, Corse, deflave,

Both 55gr and 64gr Gold Dot will still reliably expand down to 1800fps. The 64gr will apparently hit 1900-1950fps out of a 7.5 barrel.

Given that, I'm sure there's other rounds that will still perform out of a 7.5", even if limited to inside 100 yards. I think the TSX is one of them.

ETA: I'd also like to point out that in 1994, a 4.5" AR was used to great effect by CIA Ground Branch Task Force RECIPROCITY for an in-extremis hostage rescue of an ODA in Columbia.

The TSX's do show good expansion at the lower speeds IME.

I've been trying to convince people of the utility of a 4.5" for years. But on a totally unrelated topic.

[Clusterfrack]

Heh. We will see. Or maybe the next one will get one.

One word. Thunderbeast.

[Wake27]

While I support enabling, a can on top of an 18” gun sounds terrible for anything that doesn’t involve a bipod.


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[HeavyDuty]

LittleLebowski and HeavyDuty have me looking at the Evo3 now...

I like that I could also get a matching rifle for the two grand I was I gonna drop on a B&T...

LMK if you want to take mine for a drive.

[RevolverRob]

LMK if you want to take mine for a drive.

I'll let you know, but I'm pretty much sold on it at this point.

Magpul mags working out for you guys?

Best 20-rounders are the CZs?

Now that CZ is offering a Magpul'ed up rifle version straight from the factory, I'll probably go with that SKU to get one matched closely to the pistola. I'm thinking Gearhead Works folding brace, Magpul grip and mag release, and a Primary Arms/Holosun ACSS on top for both of them. I've been running a PA red-dot on my AR9 for ~6-7 years now.

Aside from occasionally forgetting to change the battery every 3-months, it's worked just fine. Of course, I'm not out there running around bashing it on shit either, it sits in the corner or the safe, not exactly "high stress".

[HeavyDuty]

I'll let you know, but I'm pretty much sold on it at this point.

Magpul mags working out for you guys?

Best 20-rounders are the CZs?

Now that CZ is offering a Magpul'ed up rifle version straight from the factory, I'll probably go with that SKU to get one matched closely to the pistola. I'm thinking Gearhead Works folding brace, Magpul grip and mag release, and a Primary Arms/Holosun ACSS on top for both of them. I've been running a PA red-dot on my AR9 for ~6-7 years now.

Aside from occasionally forgetting to change the battery every 3-months, it's worked just fine. Of course, I'm not out there running around bashing it on shit either, it sits in the corner or the safe, not exactly "high stress".

You’re thinking two EVOs?

[RevolverRob]

You’re thinking two EVOs?

Yea I think so -

An EVO 3 S1 pistol with GHW Tailhook: https://cz-usa.com/product/cz-scorpion-evo-3-s1-pistol-2/

And the EVO 3 S1 Magpul carbine: https://cz-usa.com/product/cz-scorpion-evo-3-s1-carbine-magpul-edition/

This way, I can shoot the carbine in PCC matches without any "brace issues". I might go HBI K-conversion, but undecided at this point. By my measuring tape the S1 (non-K) should fit fine in my current backpack.

[Clusterfrack]

A 14yr old girl was shooting an SBRed Evo pistol at a recent USPSA match. She did well with it.

[Corse]

OK.


Just trying to throw some info on 300 blk out there. If you want to stick with that 556 that’s totally fine. It makes sense from a logistical standpoint, but I don’t think it’s better ballistically from a short barrel at all.

A super short barrel turns a 5.56 into basically a 5.7x28 and some experts around here have equated that to less effective than 9mm in unarmored targets. It will still poke holes in things, but it may not be the best choice. Still better than a sharp stick though.

[Corse]

Yea I think so -

An EVO 3 S1 pistol with GHW Tailhook: https://cz-usa.com/product/cz-scorpion-evo-3-s1-pistol-2/

And the EVO 3 S1 Magpul carbine: https://cz-usa.com/product/cz-scorpion-evo-3-s1-carbine-magpul-edition/

This way, I can shoot the carbine in PCC matches without any "brace issues". I might go HBI K-conversion, but undecided at this point. By my measuring tape the S1 (non-K) should fit fine in my current backpack.

I use the tail hook on the factory CZ “stock”, the kit from gear head. It works great, much better than the rubber braces.

[TGS]

A super short barrel turns a 5.56 into basically a 5.7x28

Do you have reference material for this claim?

I've cited at least three rounds that will still expand from a 7.5" AR15.

[hiro]

A 14yr old girl was shooting an SBRed Evo pistol at a recent USPSA match. She did well with it.

So there's hope for you yet RevolverRob

[deflave]

Just trying to throw some info on 300 blk out there. If you want to stick with that 556 that’s totally fine. It makes sense from a logistical standpoint, but I don’t think it’s better ballistically from a short barrel at all.

A super short barrel turns a 5.56 into basically a 5.7x28 and some experts around here have equated that to less effective than 9mm in unarmored targets. It will still poke holes in things, but it may not be the best choice. Still better than a sharp stick though.

My PDW is a .300 Blackout.

If you've had bad performance from a 5.56 in a 7.5" barrel, that's fine.

If you think 5.56 loads can't perform at 1500fps, that's fine too.

[RevolverRob]

So there's hope for you yet RevolverRob

Since PCC is the new hotness for teenagers - I doubt very seriously I could best them.

Hell, I’m still confused if you go on the beep or you go when the RO starts yelling, “What the fuck? Are you having a stroke?!”

[Clusterfrack]

Since PCC is the new hotness for teenagers - I doubt very seriously I could best them.

Hell, I’m still confused if you go on the beep or you go when the RO starts yelling, “What the fuck? Are you having a stroke?!”

The most important thing is when someone asks you to paste targets instead of looking at your phone, you need to roll your eyes and say "whatever."

[Corse]

Do you have reference material for this claim?

I've cited at least three rounds that will still expand from a 7.5" AR15.

Doc KGR talking about the limitations of SBRs beyond 100yrds, but these are 10.3”+ guns from the link, so I think you can infer that the shorter barrels would be even worse.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4344-5-56-mm-Duty-Loads

Here is one link on the overall effectiveness of 5.7

https://pistol-forum.com/archive/index.php/t-20918.html

I’m drawing a conclusion that since the bullet fired from a 7” barrel 556 is the same velocity as a 5.7, that it won’t be much better. The bullet is at the bottom end of the envelope for which it was designed. It’s additional mass and the ability of some bullets to still expand at that velocity do give it an advantage over 5.7 at close range.

300 blk has the same problem when using bullets originally designed for something like a 308. Thankfully better stuff has come along, like the TSX.

The rounds you mentioned should still expand, but like I said earlier, it will be at a fairly short distance, which will be good enough for use inside a house. But maybe not the best choice, if that makes sense.

[Corse]

My PDW is a .300 Blackout.

If you've had bad performance from a 5.56 in a 7.5" barrel, that's fine.

If you think 5.56 loads can't perform at 1500fps, that's fine too.

I’m just going to stick with 10.3+ for 5.56 and anything shorter 300 blk.

[deflave]

I’m just going to stick with 10.3+ for 5.56 and anything shorter 300 blk.

OK.

[HeavyDuty]

I use the tail hook on the factory CZ “stock”, the kit from gear head. It works great, much better than the rubber braces.

Same. As I refer to them, rubber chicken and Velcro braces.

[HeavyDuty]

So there's hope for you yet RevolverRob

Burn!

[El Cid]

Do you have reference material for this claim?

I've cited at least three rounds that will still expand from a 7.5" AR15.

I’d be curious to see if anyone has tested them in calibrated gel in those bbl lengths. Even if the bullets are able to expand that’s only part of what we need. If they don’t give us 12 - 18 inches of penetration then it’s still a significant compromise.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Well, you can still get a 10.5 down pretty small, even if you don't like to go any shorter.

50957

I used to call that my "commuter gun" since it fit diagonally in my messenger bag.

[TGS]

Doc KGR talking about the limitations of SBRs beyond 100yrds, but these are 10.3”+ guns from the link, so I think you can infer that the shorter barrels would be even worse.


I'm not asking about 5.7, I'm very familiar.

So you're taking data about performance of 10.3" past 100 yards and using that to make sweeping statements that 7.5" will only make icepick wounds?

The 7.5" will have a shorter effective range than 10.3", but it still has an effective range. The 10.3" has a shorter effective range than 11.5". The 11.5" has shorter range than 12.5". The 12.5" has a shorter effective range than 14.5". The 14.5" has a shorter effective range than 16".

If I made the statement, "Well, 14.5" will only make icepick wounds because 16" falls off after XXX yards", would that compute? No, that's not a universal truth even though there are limitations to bullet types and the range at which they'll perform. Neither would it make sense when there are loads that will travel fast enough out of a 7.5" to still perform, even if it's a shorter range. If you select the right load, that range is still farther than the average defensive use that anyone could imagine employing one of these PDWs they're driving around their car with during the coronapocolypse.

[Corse]

I'm not asking about 5.7, I'm very familiar.

So you're taking data about performance of 10.3" past 100 yards and using that to make sweeping statements that 7.5" will only make icepick wounds?

The 7.5" will have a shorter effective range than 10.3", but it still has an effective range. The 10.3" has a shorter effective range than 11.5". The 11.5" has shorter range than 12.5". The 12.5" has a shorter effective range than 14.5". The 14.5" has a shorter effective range than 16".

If I made the statement, "Well, 14.5" will only make icepick wounds because 16" falls off after XXX yards", would that compute? No, that's not a universal truth even though there are limitations to bullet types and the range at which they'll perform. Neither would it make sense when there are loads that will travel fast enough out of a 7.5" to still perform, even if it's a shorter range. If you select the right load, that range is still farther than the average defensive use that anyone could imagine employing one of these PDWs they're driving around their car with during the coronapocolypse.


I said past 80 yards in multiple posts based on your numbers for expansion, and after that no better than a 5.7. I also said based on that it would probably work fine inside a house, in my opinion, with the accompanying blast. I also said the 300 blk with rounds like the TSX give you a much larger window. And, in my opinion, would make a much better round out of short barrels. SBRs are already a compromise, I don’t want to give up even more when I don’t have to.

I’m pretty sure most defensive gun use is within hand gun range, but there are exceptions (Walmart has pretty big parking lots). If I was going to go through the trouble of carting around a rifle, I want a rifle.

Now a little brief case with an MP5k tucked inside would be neat.

I think some people might be taking this personal.

[Corse]

Well, you can still get a 10.5 down pretty small, even if you don't like to go any shorter.

50957

I used to call that my "commuter gun" since it fit diagonally in my messenger bag.

What stock are you using? Overall length?

[jandbj]

I'm wondering why the larger 9mm PCCs get the nod these days.

The B&T TP9 gets almost no mention, anywhere, when people talk about PDWs. It seems like the perfect PDW to me, if you're jumping down to pistol calibers. If I can fit an APC9K, I can fit a Honey Badger, so I'd rather have the latter.

The TP9 will fit in much smaller bags, and weighs half as much as the other options. It's something that's been on my radar for a while with great interest.

The Uzi Pro with a brace would fill the TP9 role well too. I’ve done a few 9mm AR uppers and one glock magged lower... kept the Colt upper that I run with endomags on the SBR lower. And have a lot of trigger time on the Uzi SMG... the Uzi Pro with a brace might just be the right ointment for that itch.

[TGS]

I said past 80 yards in multiple posts based on your numbers for expansion, and after that no better than a 5.7. I also said based on that it would probably work fine inside a house, in my opinion, with the accompanying blast. I also said the 300 blk with rounds like the TSX give you a much larger window. And, in my opinion, would make a much better round out of short barrels. SBRs are already a compromise, I don’t want to give up even more when I don’t have to.

I’m pretty sure most defensive gun use is within hand gun range, but there are exceptions (Walmart has pretty big parking lots). If I was going to go through the trouble of carting around a rifle, I want a rifle.

Now a little brief case with an MP5k tucked inside would be neat.

I think some people might be taking this personal.

You mentioned 80 yards in one post, not multiple, and the statement you made that I'm addressing is patently false and didn't include that. You wrote that 7.5" barrels basically turn a 5.56 into a 5.7 that pokes holes, and that's simply not true. I'm not talking about 5.7's efficacy, I'm not talking about your affinity for MP5ks, nor whether you think a 7.5" 5.56 is a real rifle or not.

As for personal, Deflave doesn't seem to care about your bad info and I don't own any 7.5" gun that I would be emotionally invested in. I think they'd be fucking miserable, personally, but people trying to pass bad info as the truth on a technical forum is still bad info that needs to be corrected.

[TGS]

The Uzi Pro with a brace would fill the TP9 role well too. I’ve done a few 9mm AR uppers and one glock magged lower... kept the Colt upper that I run with endomags on the SBR lower. And have a lot of trigger time on the Uzi SMG... the Uzi Pro with a brace might just be the right ointment for that itch.

Very cool. I'm unfamiliar with the Pro, what's different as opposed to the "legacy" (for lack of a better term) Micro, Mini and standard folding stocked Uzis? Picatinney, manual of arms, that sort of stuff?

[jandbj]

Very cool. I'm unfamiliar with the Pro, what's different as opposed to the "legacy" (for lack of a better term) Micro, Mini and standard folding stocked Uzis? Picatinney, manual of arms, that sort of stuff?


https://youtu.be/zKtiYOSxsB0

Mags for the Pro are backwards compatible to the legacy guns, mag in grip has some advantages for guys who shoot autopistols more than AR platforms. Polymer lower weighs less than the legacy designs, pic rail up top and a side charging handle.

And it looks shit hot in SBR trim too.
http://www.titleiiarms.com/UZI_Pro_Original_STOCK_ARM.html

[StraitR]

Well, you can still get a 10.5 down pretty small, even if you don't like to go any shorter.

50957

I used to call that my "commuter gun" since it fit diagonally in my messenger bag.

This is the perfect size for a 5.56 gun, IMO.

...EDIT: Same questions about stock and OAL asked above...

I may do a 5.56 version like that at some point.

[El Cid]

https://youtu.be/zKtiYOSxsB0

Mags for the Pro are backwards compatible to the legacy guns, mag in grip has some advantages for guys who shoot autopistols more than AR platforms. Polymer lower weighs less than the legacy designs, pic rail up top and a side charging handle.

And it looks shit hot in SBR trim too.
http://www.titleiiarms.com/UZI_Pro_Original_STOCK_ARM.html

With a short can that looks like a fun little gun! Is the side charging handle non-reciprocating?

ETA: TGS I think you’re into something here. This is crazy quiet and likely not much longer than my APC9 PRO sans can.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RZLXnhvE_oQ

[StraitR]

With a short can that looks like a fun little gun! Is the side charging handle non-reciprocating?

CH does reciprocate. Don't flag your thumb. :)

[TGS]

With a short can that looks like a fun little gun! Is the side charging handle non-reciprocating?

ETA: TGS I think you’re into something here. This is crazy quiet and likely not much longer than my APC9 PRO sans can.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RZLXnhvE_oQ

Yeah, it's sexy, right? Great aesthetics, soft recoil, super compact, and everyone who owns one raves about them. You could carry it in a very small bag, or in a regular sized backpack that can still carry all your other junk for a road trip or what have you. As much as I like watching MACs videos he seems to like every gun he reviews.....but at the same time, he has two TP9s and the real MP9, so that kind of says something.

Yet, ToddG's maxim, "uncommon guns are uncommon for a reason" keeps banging around in my head and prevents me from dropping the coin on one.

[El Cid]

Yeah, it's sexy, right? Great aesthetics, soft recoil, super compact, and everyone who owns one raves about them. You could carry it in a very small bag, or in a regular sized backpack that can still carry all your other junk for a road trip or what have you. As much as I like watching MACs videos he seems to like every gun he reviews.....but at the same time, he has two TP9s and the real MP9, so that kind of says something.

Yet, ToddG's maxim, "uncommon guns are uncommon for a reason" keeps banging around in my head and prevents me from dropping the coin on one.

Yea I need to start budgeting for one of those. Lol! Once again P-F is costing me money. Besides my APC came with a B&T mag I’m not using because I have the Glock lower. If I already have the mag, then I must get a TP9 to use it in right?

I get why Todd would say that. But the Swiss seem to know what they’re doing with guns and watches. My APC9 PRO is amazing and I have no reason to think this will be any different. And part of the reason B&T weapons are rare is the price of admission.

[Corse]

You mentioned 80 yards in one post, not multiple, and the statement you made that I'm addressing is patently false and didn't include that. You wrote that 7.5" barrels basically turn a 5.56 into a 5.7 that pokes holes, and that's simply not true. I'm not talking about 5.7's efficacy, I'm not talking about your affinity for MP5ks, nor whether you think a 7.5" 5.56 is a real rifle or not.

As for personal, Deflave doesn't seem to care about your bad info and I don't own any 7.5" gun that I would be emotionally invested in. I think they'd be fucking miserable, personally, but people trying to pass bad info as the truth on a technical forum is still bad info that needs to be corrected.

You are correct, I mentioned the 80 yrds in only one previous post, I was incorrect in assuming that it was understood I was continuing the same line of thinking. That’s the problem with the internet I guess.

I stand by that 5.56 out of a 7.5” barrel after a short range, probably well inside 100 yrds, would most likely act just like a 5.7.

If this is incorrect, please show me the ballistic tests. I don’t have the time, resources or desire to do the testing myself. I’ll talk what appears to be reputable info and do my best to make decisions based on that.

I’m trying to pass what I’ve learned on. If you have better info then share your sources. And if you don’t think MP5k s are cool then I don’t know what to tell you.

[Corse]

https://youtu.be/zKtiYOSxsB0

Mags for the Pro are backwards compatible to the legacy guns, mag in grip has some advantages for guys who shoot autopistols more than AR platforms. Polymer lower weighs less than the legacy designs, pic rail up top and a side charging handle.

And it looks shit hot in SBR trim too.
http://www.titleiiarms.com/UZI_Pro_Original_STOCK_ARM.html

Those are pretty cool little guns. That would be a piece of cake to fit in a regular bag.

[ldunnmobile]

I ran a B&T APC9 for over a year. Amazing little gun. But ultimately I sold it because I vastly prefer a 10.5” AR pistol. The capability of the 5.56 even in a short package was too great compared to 9mm. JMHO

[jandbj]

CH does reciprocate. Don't flag your thumb. :)

Uzi Pro CH is non reciprocating.

[StraitR]

Uzi Pro CH is non reciprocating.

FF to 9:21


https://youtu.be/F8Vam5m5_EQ?t=561

[El Cid]

I ran a B&T APC9 for over a year. Amazing little gun. But ultimately I sold it because I vastly prefer a 10.5” AR pistol. The capability of the 5.56 even in a short package was too great compared to 9mm. JMHO

I don’t think I’ve seen anyone suggest a 9mm PDW/PCC is as effective as a 5.56 or other rifle caliber. For me the draw of them is that I can fit one in a much smaller case or bag than any SBR I’d trust. My APC even uses Glock mags that I have everywhere. The TP9 is smaller yet and with a can will be dramatically quieter than a suppressed 5.56/300BLK. For me it’s like a G43 or J-frame. I carry them not because they’re the best, but because I can’t carry a proper sized pistol.

How was your TP9 in terms of reliability? Any ammo it didn’t like such as JHP’s? Thanks!

[Maple Syrup Actual]

What stock are you using? Overall length?


This is the perfect size for a 5.56 gun, IMO.

...EDIT: Same questions about stock and OAL asked above...

I may do a 5.56 version like that at some point.

OAL is just under 25". The stock cuts a little less than three inches off the length.

That particular stock is an NEA CCS. There's things about it I like, but among the things I didn't really like was the number of times I had to cut another quarter coil off the spring, looking for the sweet spot.

They gassed their guns pretty hard so I guess this stock was tuned to that "spec". They work once you get them dialed in but you need to dial then in.

But I believe it's out of production now, anyway. I keep it mostly for sentimental reasons, having spent a lot of time with the company founder, who is a real character, maybe best compared to Alex Robinson. He is not well liked in Canadian gun circles, for reasons which range from totally deserved, to completely irrational. His contribution to the Canadian AR scene is almost universally misunderstood and undervalued. He sold the company, as far as I know, and is pretty invisible these days, which makes me sad because I always wanted to write a book about him and his company, and I always dreamed I would be able to call it "Catastrophic Success: The Rise, Fall, Rise, Fall, Rise, Fall and Rise of Canada's Strangest Arms Dealer, as told to Canada's Strangest Arms Writer".

But he got tired of the stress of the company, I think. I believe he is mainly interested in suppressors and automatic watches these days.


Since I got the stock tuned in, the performance has been good.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Oh, and all the B&T stuff is excellent; I have used it all fairly extensively. But again, 9mm. It's just not enough punch for the size of the guns.

[StraitR]

OAL is just under 25". The stock cuts a little less than three inches off the length.

That particular stock is an NEA CCS. There's things about it I like, but among the things I didn't really like was the number of times I had to cut another quarter coil off the spring, looking for the sweet spot.

They gassed their guns pretty hard so I guess this stock was tuned to that "spec". They work once you get them dialed in but you need to dial then in.

But I believe it's out of production now, anyway. I keep it mostly for sentimental reasons, having spent a lot of time with the company founder, who is a real character, maybe best compared to Alex Robinson. He is not well liked in Canadian gun circles, for reasons which range from totally deserved, to completely irrational. His contribution to the Canadian AR scene is almost universally misunderstood and undervalued. He sold the company, as far as I know, and is pretty invisible these days, which makes me sad because I always wanted to write a book about him and his company, and I always dreamed I would be able to call it "Catastrophic Success: The Rise, Fall, Rise, Fall, Rise, Fall and Rise of Canada's Strangest Arms Dealer, as told to Canada's Strangest Arms Writer".

But he got tired of the stress of the company, I think. I believe he is mainly interested in suppressors and automatic watches these days.


Since I got the stock tuned in, the performance has been good.

Hahaha... I never get enough of your posts. Always a backstory, always a quality read. Where's that clapping emoji when you need one?

That's fantastic. "Just under 25 inches" is about as good as it's going to get for a 10.5" barreled AR. For the sake of comparison, my DDM4 PDW with 7" barrel is just a smidge over 21" (a smidge being 1/16", or 1.5875mm) with the Cherry Bomb. It was 20.75" with the factory linear brake. And it feels tiny, so adding 3-4" wouldn't be much of a stretch, IMO, and definitely worth it for 5.56.

Anyone have a 10.X barrel with LAW folder they wouldn't mind measuring in the folded postiion, for science? Asking for a friend.

[Corse]

OAL is just under 25". The stock cuts a little less than three inches off the length.

That particular stock is an NEA CCS. There's things about it I like, but among the things I didn't really like was the number of times I had to cut another quarter coil off the spring, looking for the sweet spot.
...

Since I got the stock tuned in, the performance has been good.

I remember seeing those, weren’t they one of the first companies to come out with that style of stock? I wanted to try one, but they were hard to get and expensive.

[TGS]

I stand by that 5.56 out of a 7.5” barrel after a short range, probably well inside 100 yrds, would most likely act just like a 5.7.

If this is incorrect, please show me the ballistic tests.

50977

Here's an article on some others using calibrated 10% ord gel, including the 55gr Gold Dot and 55gr VMax which did not act like a 5.7: http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2014/01/three-223-remington-clear-gel-terminal.html

This lacks the meaningful sample size of the above test, but here's the 62gr Fusion expanding down at 1700 fps, which is well below what it'll exit a 7.5" barrel at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otou1Fws4cQ

I think I've proved my point by now. A bunch of the quality JSPs will not act like a 5.7 out of a 7.5" barrel. For others, the velocity thresholds for expansion are widely known, with the 62gr Gold Dot and 64gr TBBC expanding well below the 7.5" m/v as well. Some interesting things will happen with the short barrels too, like the VMax, SOST and others actually expanding like a JSP instead of fragmenting.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Hahaha... I never get enough of your posts. Always a backstory, always a quality read. Where's that clapping emoji when you need one?
.
Glad you enjoyed it - I am never sure if the personal sidebars are fun for anyone, or just an annoying expression of my own ego.

I remember seeing those, weren’t they one of the first companies to come out with that style of stock? I wanted to try one, but they were hard to get and expensive.
They were indeed; at the time they were doing a lot of OEMing for a certain well known company, so if it looks surprisingly familiar, well, maybe NEA snuck the design on to the market by concealing it in a package most people would happily open their doors to.

In fact if I recall correctly, the verbiage on the site of the much better known manufacturer struck me as brilliantly worded and astonishingly well expressed. Conceivably I could have ribbed them about who authored it, but I didn't want to get in a conflict with a company that had done battle over and over and over.

[jandbj]

FF to 9:21


https://youtu.be/F8Vam5m5_EQ?t=561

Hmmmm. Looks like it may bounce some in recoil but I’m not positive it actually reciprocates with the bolt.

I was basing my comment off this article:

https://dailycaller.com/2016/05/18/gun-test-iwis-compact-uzi-pro-pistol/

“Most notable is that the polymer, non-reciprocating charging handle has been moved from the top of the receiver to the left side.”

Methinks I need to find one to shoot myself. Anyone on PF have one that can give a definitive answer?

[StraitR]

Hmmmm. Looks like it may bounce some in recoil but I’m not positive it actually reciprocates with the bolt.

I was basing my comment off this article:

https://dailycaller.com/2016/05/18/gun-test-iwis-compact-uzi-pro-pistol/

“Most notable is that the polymer, non-reciprocating charging handle has been moved from the top of the receiver to the left side.”

Methinks I need to find one to shoot myself. Anyone on PF have one that can give a definitive answer?

Yeah, possibly a byproduct of recoil. None of the legacy models exhibited that, but they didn't have side or polymer CH's. Frankly, I can't think of a legacy Uzi model (top CH) that wasn't non-reciprocating, which is why I noticed it in the above Pro video. No mention of it on the IWI website either.

[ldunnmobile]

I don’t think I’ve seen anyone suggest a 9mm PDW/PCC is as effective as a 5.56 or other rifle caliber. For me the draw of them is that I can fit one in a much smaller case or bag than any SBR I’d trust. My APC even uses Glock mags that I have everywhere. The TP9 is smaller yet and with a can will be dramatically quieter than a suppressed 5.56/300BLK. For me it’s like a G43 or J-frame. I carry them not because they’re the best, but because I can’t carry a proper sized pistol.

How was your TP9 in terms of reliability? Any ammo it didn’t like such as JHP’s? Thanks!

It fed Speer G2 147’s like the Predator on a bunch of fudds.

[Joe in PNG]

I don't know if it's because I'm an oddball, but the B&T USW SBR with folding stock seems to make a fair bit of sense as a super compact PDW.
One that would easily tote in a small messenger bag.

Of course, I don't have the kind of coin to spend on it or the SBR paperwork.

[Corse]

50977

Here's an article on some others using calibrated 10% ord gel, including the 55gr Gold Dot and 55gr VMax which did not act like a 5.7: http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2014/01/three-223-remington-clear-gel-terminal.html

This lacks the meaningful sample size of the above test, but here's the 62gr Fusion expanding down at 1700 fps, which is well below what it'll exit a 7.5" barrel at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otou1Fws4cQ

I think I've proved my point by now. A bunch of the quality JSPs will not act like a 5.7 out of a 7.5" barrel. For others, the velocity thresholds for expansion are widely known, with the 62gr Gold Dot and 64gr TBBC expanding well below the 7.5" m/v as well. Some interesting things will happen with the short barrels too, like the VMax, SOST and others actually expanding like a JSP instead of fragmenting.

Is the velocity in that 3rd picture correct? 2634 from an 8” barrel? It definitely does’t match the link, which was about 2040 FPS.

If the 2040 is correct that gives about 120 yrds if it has the same expansion threshold as the 62gr. But I’m not sure if it does. If so, it’s better than I thought.

There is no 62 gr federal on Jbm ballistics, so I used the 62 gr gold dot. Also, since there is no actual muzzle velocity listed for a 62gr in that test I reduced it by 100fp from the 55gr (Speer says 3220 for the 55 gr and 3000 FPS for the 62).

That means it will hit the expansion threshold around 85 yrds. Which is pretty close to what I said. I had to make a few assumptions, since I don’t have any other data. I hope this is acceptable.

So I think I have proved my point also, that for close range it is fine, but after around 80 yrds it’s not doing much. Maybe the 55gr is better, especially if the 2600 FPS is correct. Something like the 50gr TSX may work well.

I feel we might be talking past each other and I don’t want this to become some kind of internet pissing contest.

[Corse]

Glad you enjoyed it - I am never sure if the personal sidebars are fun for anyone, or just an annoying expression of my own ego.

They were indeed; at the time they were doing a lot of OEMing for a certain well known company, so if it looks surprisingly familiar, well, maybe NEA snuck the design on to the market by concealing it in a package most people would happily open their doors to.

In fact if I recall correctly, the verbiage on the site of the much better known manufacturer struck me as brilliantly worded and astonishingly well expressed. Conceivably I could have ribbed them about who authored it, but I didn't want to get in a conflict with a company that had done battle over and over and over.

A “horse” of a different color maybe?

[Maple Syrup Actual]

A “horse” of a different color maybe?

As I recall, yes... I bear them no ill will at all but was not quite prepared to go to Helen back over it.

[GJM]

I don't know if it's because I'm an oddball, but the B&T USW SBR with folding stock seems to make a fair bit of sense as a super compact PDW.
One that would easily tote in a small messenger bag.

Of course, I don't have the kind of coin to spend on it or the SBR paperwork.

Shooter at a nearby USPSA club shoots one in PCC, and does surprisingly well with it.

Anyone shot a TP9 with a brace? APC9 Pro shoots great.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

Shooter at a nearby USPSA club shoots one in PCC, and does surprisingly well with it.

Anyone shot a TP9 with a brace? APC9 Pro shoots great.

Yes, it's a very nice little package. I like the clean little folder setup.

Although it suddenly occurs to me that "brace" might mean something specific in a US context... I have only shot them with the factory folder.

[757_Magnum]

I've been obsessed with finding a PDW for years, but everything seems to have some flaw/s that keep me away. I'm not as accomplished a shooter as most of you, and some of these observations are just from handling the following firearms, so take it for what it's worth.

- Uzi Pro - handled one several times in a local gun shop - Mags were really cheap direct from IWI last time I checked. Ergos felt much worse compared to the Micro Uzi that I remember handling in the past. Feels clunky and unbalanced, safety is hard to reach, horrible trigger (I'm not a trigger snob, either), the grip safety isn't as easy to depress as it should be, and the ridges next to the grip safety are sharp or pinch the web of your hand.

- full size/mini Uzi - owned a full size Vector, handled mini several times - The full size felt surprisingly nimble for its weight, but it's pretty heavy. The mini felt great and I wish IWI made an improved modern version unlike the Pro. Optic and light mounting options are clunky.

- Masterpiece Arms MPA30DMG - owned one for a short while - Decent ergos, takes Glock mags, but the safety isn't easy to reach and has a long throw, and awful trigger slap. The trigger developed to combat this is only reliable for a couple thousand rounds, IIRC

- PS90 - handled my neighbor's suppressed SBR - feels great to me, decent trigger, but ammo availability and terminal ballistics seem to require more rounds dumped into the target to provide a stop

- Scorpion - handled multiple times - doesn't really click with me, direct blowback, big for caliber, did the cracked mag lip issue get fixed?

- MPXK - too many reported issues online and among friends (gen 1 and 2) for me to trust their reliability

- Sig MCX or Rattler - I'm still on the fence about these. AR ergos with folding stocks are great, but again Sig reliability comes into question.

- HK MP5K clone - I need to revisit these since the recent optic mounting options and aftermarket accessories are breathing new life into it, but the mags are pricey and I'd love LRBHO.

- AR9 - owned a 5" pistol build - Great AR ergos, but didn't like the direct blowback. This used Colt mags and had a pistol buffer tube. Newer lowers that dependably accept Glock mags and allow braces led me to...

- CMMG Guard - currently own 8" 9mm build - Same great AR ergos, takes Glock mags, but CMMG's Radial Delayed Blowback is tunable and super smooth with or without a suppressor. It's still big for the caliber, so I'm selling the Glock version and building a new one on a standard lower and using the CMMG ARC magazine adapters to keep it as a low-ammo-cost/pistol-caliber-range-only trainer. The 10mm version would tempt me if higher capacity mags were produced other than the ridiculously long KRISS ones.

- B&T TP9 - handled multiple times - In my mind the perfect PDW size, and the TP9N has a better safety and foregrip integration vs. the older models. Trigger doesn't feel too bad, but the charging handle feels like it's going to break, expensive mags, and you can only use the B&T suppressor on it. Also it's double the price of...

- Sig M17 in a B&T USW grip module - haven't handled the USW module, seriously considering one - ~$1200 altogether with a tax stamp, common and reasonably priced mags. The P320's trigger seems too light as a carry gun for me, and the grip angle feels too vertical, but with the decent thumb safety on the M17 it all seems to lend itself to a PDW. Again, there's that question of Sig QC. I've had a few guys in my local Facebook group post about cracked frames after 2000 rounds. I don't like the Glock version because it uses the rail like

Each time I go over the pros and cons of each, only the Sig offerings and maybe a PTR MP5K clone still tempt me. Adding an RMR to my Glocks a year ago really lessened that desire since it closed the performance gap somewhat while being much more discreet and always available. For now my PDW money is going into night vision since I got a great deal on NVGs and they offer capabilities that no other firearm offers.

[TGS]

Is the velocity in that 3rd picture correct? 2634 from an 8” barrel? It definitely does’t match the link, which was about 2040 FPS.

I forgot to label it. That's 50gr TSX, not featured in the other links.

[SouthNarc]

So has anyone wrung a Rattler out?

[WobblyPossum]

So has anyone wrung a Rattler out?
I think Sensei might have one.

[El Cid]

Went to the B&T site to look at the TP9 and found this... they are marketing a "PDW" version of their APC556.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo5lGnJoaS8&fbclid=IwAR2nURkuqr7KkS2f1KMtFGQacZbi70rmKSeB8p0fD _U7a3TY98YgJVe5Pb0

https://www.bt-ag.ch/shop/eng/bt-apc556apc223/bt-assault-rifle-apc556-pdw-cal-556-x-45-mm-bt-36063

No idea when/if a semi-only, US import version will arrive. My agency blocks the B&T USA site, but not the oveseas one... lol :rolleyes:

[ranger]

If I need something smaller than my M4orgery with a LAW folder - I still like my MPX SBR with 4.5 barrel and TiRant9. Other than barrel change - mine is OEM and I have no issues with it. In fact, I was embarrassed at how dirty it was and still running when I cleaned it to swap the 8 inch barrel for the 4.5 inch. I know the CMore is not "Ninja" but it is fast and on hand - after I installed it had no desire to remove.

50995

[ccmdfd]

What's the current consensus on the MPX?

GTG now, or still issues?

cc

[psalms144.1]

Shameless enabling:

https://www.armsunlimited.com/Brugger-Thomet-APC9-PRO-9mm-Semi-Auto-Pistol-p/bt-36045.htm

[DocGKR]

Hmmm.....if one already has a handgun in a service caliber, why duplicate that in a shoulder fired weapon?

Seems one of the major advantages of a shoulder fired weapon is an increase in terminal performance--that does not occur when using a service handgun caliber in a long gun......

[GJM]

What's the current consensus on the MPX?

GTG now, or still issues?

cc

The latest Gen are 16 inch competition models, and seem to be doing well, but I would be cautious with short barrel variants as they likely have the previous Gen gas system and small parts.

[Sero Sed Serio]

Rifle Gear has 10+ Daniel Defense PDW pistols in stock for $1,772, which is about $75 less than I see them going most places:

https://www.riflegear.com/p-12243-daniel-defense-pdw-300blk-7-pistol.aspx

I have no affiliation with Rifle Gear other than having ordered pistols from them in the past. My experiences have been positive.

[GJM]

Hmmm.....if one already has a handgun in a service caliber, why duplicate that in a shoulder fired weapon?

Seems one of the major advantages of a shoulder fired weapon is an increase in terminal performance--that does not occur when using a service handgun caliber in a long gun......

Agreed on ballistics, but another major advantage of a shoulder fired weapon is being to place a fast and accurate shot. For an extremely skilled shooter, there isn’t a great difference in shootability between a pistol caliber defensive carbine and a red dot equipped pistol. For an average to less skilled shooter, the pistol caliber carbine is a game changer in terms of placing accurate shots. I see this in every USPSA match.

[TGS]

Hmmm.....if one already has a handgun in a service caliber, why duplicate that in a shoulder fired weapon?

Seems one of the major advantages of a shoulder fired weapon is an increase in terminal performance--that does not occur when using a service handgun caliber in a long gun......

Ballistics left in the gunsafe because they're not feasible to carry with you aren't useful ballistics.

I would always want a rifle if possible, but if a rifle isn't possible and a 9mm PCC is, I'll gladly take the latter. On the professional side, they're useful for this reason, which is why we still have them in limited use to supplement folding Mk18s.

[PNWTO]

For an average to less skilled shooter, the pistol caliber carbine is a game changer in terms of placing accurate shots. I see this in every USPSA match.

This is where I’m at in my decision making. Despite being on the internet where everyone is a hard charger I will happily say that my actual carbine training hours per year is in the single digits. Which is a big reason I have moved away from it. But I do have ability to shoot handguns on my property and I have a lot of 9mm.

Isolating the TP9, something that fits in a larger DSLR case (https://www.peakdesign.com/products/everyday-sling/?variant=29742302068780) could also be desirable.

[El Cid]

Agreed on ballistics, but another major advantage of a shoulder fired weapon is being to place a fast and accurate shot. For an extremely skilled shooter, there isn’t a great difference in shootability between a pistol caliber defensive carbine and a red dot equipped pistol. For an average to less skilled shooter, the pistol caliber carbine is a game changer in terms of placing accurate shots. I see this in every USPSA match.




Ballistics left in the gunsafe because they're not feasible to carry with you aren't useful ballistics.

I would always want a rifle if possible, but if a rifle isn't possible and a 9mm PCC is, I'll gladly take the latter. On the professional side, they're useful for this reason, which is why we still have them in limited use to supplement folding Mk18s.

Agreed. I look at it like this.

Rifle > SBR > PCC > Pistol > Subcompact handgun

[DocGKR]

Many of the PDW's need full auto capability to maximize their effectiveness.

Likewise unless they are classified as "pistols" or are NFA SBR items, then a PCC does not have much size advantage over more effective long gun caliber rifles.

If NFA, then it is harder to spontaneously travel.

[Baldanders]

I'm not arguing that it's awesome overall, but a Sub2000 will fit in any backpack folded, or partially folded if you have a scope mounted like I do.

I know many folks think of them as shit, but plop in a recoil buffer and heavy bolt and they become much nicer shooters, and quite accurate. Just make sure to spray out the trigger group with CLP on a regular basis. Crud builds up to the point that it eventually stops the trigger from releasing the striker. My example has had zero feeding problems with a wide variety of ammunition.

If you are having to move and protect your family, I can see a logistical advantage for a long gun that accepts the same mags and ammo as your handgun(s).

Off the shelf, I might buy one of the Ruger carbines now for the same reason. The Sub2000 is going to be faster to get into action than the Ruger, however. Sorta like a giant "Full Conceal" in duffel bag.

(Very much thinking about shifting over to Glocks myself, recently. )

I'm not posting anymore "ghetto blaster" pics. I have a few up for my 2000 here and there. It wears a big ass 90s red dot. Huge but super bright! I should probably load up a few mags with 147-grain Ranger, just in case.

ETA: BONDED 147 grain Ranger. Because I happen to have it, and that ammo type was recommended as ideal by some guy. Who might be posting in this thread. 😊

[El Cid]

Many of the PDW's need full auto capability to maximize their effectiveness.

Likewise unless they are classified as "pistols" or are NFA SBR items, then a PCC does not have much size advantage over more effective long gun caliber rifles.

If NFA, then it is harder to spontaneously travel.

Completely on board with you sir. But my APC9 PRO is much smaller than even my 8.5”/PDW stock 300BLK for travel. Not trying to rehash the AR bbl length discourse from earlier in this thread, but I am not comfortable going any shorter with a rifle. And I’d rather have a PCC than a handgun whether in a match or real world encounter.

[Clusterfrack]

Hmmm.....if one already has a handgun in a service caliber, why duplicate that in a shoulder fired weapon?

Seems one of the major advantages of a shoulder fired weapon is an increase in terminal performance--that does not occur when using a service handgun caliber in a long gun......


Completely on board with you sir. But my APC9 PRO is much smaller than even my 8.5”/PDW stock 300BLK for travel. Not trying to rehash the AR bbl length discourse from earlier in this thread, but I am not comfortable going any shorter with a rifle. And I’d rather have a PCC than a handgun whether in a match or real world encounter.

I'd rather have a handgun in a real world encounter, unless I could have a rifle caliber weapon. The risks of carrying a PDW size pistol caliber long gun don't outweigh the benefits in accuracy and capacity for me. Long gun = disadvantages for: ease of carry, time to deploy, stowing post incident, grappling, and appearance to the 'public'. As well, I've never seen a PCC that had the reliability of a quality 9mm auto.

[TGS]

As well, I've never seen a PCC that had the reliability of a quality 9mm auto.

What PCCs are you referring to?

[Clusterfrack]

What PCCs are you referring to?

I've seen so many. Various AR-9 types, MPX, Scorpion, Uzi, Ruger PCC, Keltec, you name it. They all have issues.

[RevolverRob]

I'd rather have a handgun in a real world encounter, unless I could have a rifle caliber weapon. The risks of carrying a PDW size pistol caliber long gun don't outweigh the benefits in accuracy and capacity for me. Long gun = disadvantages for: ease of carry, time to deploy, stowing post incident, grappling, and appearance to the 'public'. As well, I've never seen a PCC that had the reliability of a quality 9mm auto.

So, I typically only think of these weapons as useful for exactly one purpose and one purpose only (for 'civilians' at least) - travel when you will be away from home for an extended period of time ( > 48 hours). For me then the pistol-versions are the most useful in that they can be covered on a concealed carry license and therefore usually stowed, loaded, inside a vehicle and of course carried into your abode in the evening, to serve in the same role that a long-gun at home might serve.

The shorter/compact pistol caliber weapons simplify logistics (i.e., I only need to pack one type of ammunition, which is shared across both my primary weapon (handgun), and secondary weapon (PDW)), and the fact they fold up into neat little packages that fit into the average backpack and yet can still work without needing to be "opened" like a LAW folder on an AR does. That said, the advantage of a rifle-caliber weapon is tough to ignore and if someone besides Sig made the Rattler, I might well be all over it like a fat kid on someone else's birthday cake. As it is, when I sit down and evaluate the whole field, the compact AK-pistols make a lot of sense, in that a side-folding brace + rifle caliber is ideal and 7.62x39 even out of an 6" barrel does not suffer the same questionable expansion and penetration issues that 5.56 does, move up to an 8 or 10" barrel and it's even mo' better, the problem of course being AK ergonomics, but whatever, deal with it.

[El Cid]

I've seen so many. Various AR-9 types, MPX, Scorpion, Uzi, Ruger PCC, Keltec, you name it. They all have issues.

While mine isn’t that high in round count yet - it feeds everything I shoot through it. Now B&T is hardly in the same class (or price range) as River or Keltec... but I completely trust it.

[TGS]

I've seen so many. Various AR-9 types, MPX, Scorpion, Uzi, Ruger PCC, Keltec, you name it. They all have issues.

The MPX and Scorpion surprise me. The others, not so much.

What about MP5K-PDW and B&T APC9K or TP9?

[RevolverRob]

While mine isn’t that high in round count yet - it feeds everything I shoot through it. Now B&T is hardly in the same class (or price range) as River or Keltec... but I completely trust it.

I suspect the B&Ts will do better with higher round counts.

With "PCCs" in the general sense as most people have them setup today there are several issues in play:

1) The use of single feed-taper column magazines that are really designed for pistols...not high-volume machine guns and thus when you start getting cyclic-rate type fire in a carbine, the mags can't always keep up.

2) Pistol mags that present the bullet at an odd angle relative to a rifle mag or double-feed SMG magazine. There is the a reason the most reliable SMG magazines on the planet are typically sticks or slight curves that end up presenting the bullet nearly straight into the chamber of the sub-gun.

3) Extended mags that suffer the same kinds of problems that things like big-stick STI mags suffer from, people trying to cram as many bullets into the magazine as possible.

___

Colt-SMG Mag pattern AR9s tend to only suck when they aren't tuned with a big enough buffer or spring or the ejector is wrong (ramped barrels are definitely necessary in full auto or near full auto firing rate). But let's bear in mind that Colt built the whole 9mm SMG system and magazine to function with as stock an AR15/M16 setup as possible. The pistol-mag (e.g., Glock-mag) AR9s are just compromises on top of compromises. Starting with the mediocre design that is the Glock 18 magazine.

A clean(er) sheet design like the B&T should be better overall, because they weren't constrained with trying to jam 10-gallons of shit into a 5-gallon bucket.

I think it was Dagga Boy who made the point here once that the superior way of building a semi-automatic gun is to design the best magazine possible and then build a gun around it, hence why HK tends to produce some really reliable pistols. They don't really make guns...so much as they make magazines and then devices to use those magazines...or something like that I'm sort of butchering this in my paraphrasing.

[Clusterfrack]

The MPX and Scorpion surprise me. The others, not so much.

What about MP5K-PDW and B&T APC9K or TP9?

PCCs have increased in popularity at matches, so I get to see a lot of people trying to make these guns work. Of course, many are probably 'tuning' their guns, so that's a factor.

The MPXes have been problematic from the beginning, with catastrophic failures in fairly low round count guns and various types of feed-related malfunctions. People I know at Sig are saying that they finally have these guns fixed. I'm skeptical, but it would be great if true. It's a cool design, and amazingly soft shooting.

Scorpion Evos seem like the best of the bunch. Even so, they seem to have more feed issues than a production handgun like a Glock or a CZ.

AR9s are universally awful in terms of reliability. There is absolutely no correlation between cost and reliability.

Clearing malfunctions in PCCs takes more time than it does in a handgun. E.g. a good doublefeed can require a tool to get unstuck.

I have seen one dude shoot an MP-5, and another with a HK94 and they both ran well. I have no experience with the TP9.

[GJM]

Completely on board with you sir. But my APC9 PRO is much smaller than even my 8.5”/PDW stock 300BLK for travel. Not trying to rehash the AR bbl length discourse from earlier in this thread, but I am not comfortable going any shorter with a rifle. And I’d rather have a PCC than a handgun whether in a match or real world encounter.

Picture is worth more words.

51012

[GJM]

I've seen so many. Various AR-9 types, MPX, Scorpion, Uzi, Ruger PCC, Keltec, you name it. They all have issues.

You are hanging out in the wrong neighborhood — the stock HK SP5, SP5K and APC9 Pro have all been extremely reliable for me. Good designs and good magazines. I wouldn’t trust a full size USPSA PCC, with a tricked out trigger, extended magazines, and “optimized” recoil system mods on a bet.

[Clusterfrack]

You are hanging out in the wrong neighborhood — the stock HK SP5, SP5K and APC9 Pro have all been extremely reliable for me. Good designs and good magazines. I wouldn’t trust a full size USPSA PCC, with a tricked out trigger, extended magazines, and “optimized” recoil system mods on a bet.

Sounds like HK is a safe bet, unsurprisingly.

As are 5.56 and 300BLK ARs...

[El Cid]

Picture is worth more words.

51012

Lol! Yessir! I’d already posted this in the thread so I wasn’t planning to post it again but why not.
https://i.imgur.com/AcMR1tb_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

[ccmdfd]

As it is, when I sit down and evaluate the whole field, the compact AK-pistols make a lot of sense, in that a side-folding brace + rifle caliber is ideal and 7.62x39 even out of an 6" barrel does not suffer the same questionable expansion and penetration issues that 5.56 does, move up to an 8 or 10" barrel and it's even mo' better, the problem of course being AK ergonomics, but whatever, deal with it.

I've been wondering about them myself. Do you have ballistics info for short barrelled AK's?

cc

[TGS]

7.62x39 is blasty as fuck out of 8-9" barrels, and given the general shit playing field for quality 7.62x39 duty-grade ammo, I'm going to hazard a guess that you're actually better off with 5.56 as there are multiple good choices in barrels as short as 7.5"....whereas with x39, the decent loads are subject to big swings in availability (because nobody buys an AK to shoot premium ammo). The obvious best choice being the 300BLK.

I mean, it would certainly have cool points when you kill the dude with the gigantic fireball these monsters spew.

I'm curious on the ballistics in Krink-length barrels as well, for the 8M3, SST, etc.

[Clusterfrack]

I've been wondering about them myself. Do you have ballistics info for short barrelled AK's?

cc

Like this?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200331/6d4ab87f901d14a1987f470cdbc822a8.jpg

Yeah, blasty as fuck, very front heavy, and a major project to make into a modern weapon. I do like my M92 SBR. It’s fun, and surprisingly accurate to 300 yds. But not as handy as my little 7.5” 300BLK.

[RevolverRob]

7.62x39 is blasty as fuck out of 8-9" barrels, and given the general shit playing field for quality 7.62x39 duty-grade ammo, I'm going to hazard a guess that you're actually better off with 5.56 as there are multiple good choices in barrels as short as 7.5"....whereas with x39, the decent loads are subject to big swings in availability (because nobody buys an AK to shoot premium ammo). The obvious best choice being the 300BLK.

I mean, it would certainly have cool points when you kill the dude with the gigantic fireball these monsters spew.

Good point I hadn't thought of. The two magazines I've put through a 12" FAL was enough for me, damn thing would rattle your fillings loose if you got a decent cheek weld. I bet a Krink wouldn't be much nicer.


I'm curious on the ballistics in Krink-length barrels as well, for the 8M3, SST, etc.


I've been wondering about them myself. Do you have ballistics info for short barrelled AK's?

cc

Good question from both of you. I don't have any on hand, I'll have to do some more research.

[GJM]

Like this?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200331/6d4ab87f901d14a1987f470cdbc822a8.jpg

Yeah, blasty as fuck, very front heavy, and a major project to make into a modern weapon. I do like my M92 SBR. It’s fun, and surprisingly accurate to 300 yds. But not as handy as my little 7.5” 300BLK.

I was just looking at a very nice Arsenal pistol in x39, with a folding brace. While I always wanted a “Krink,” it seems like the .300 BLK in an eight inch AR seems better in so many ways?

[Doc_Glock]

Agreed on ballistics, but another major advantage of a shoulder fired weapon is being to place a fast and accurate shot. For an extremely skilled shooter, there isn’t a great difference in shootability between a pistol caliber defensive carbine and a red dot equipped pistol. For an average to less skilled shooter, the pistol caliber carbine is a game changer in terms of placing accurate shots. I see this in every USPSA match.

I was going to post almost this same thing. For me, originally the PDW type weapon was something for the smaller statured, weaker, less trained shooters in the home to have a "rule 1" gun. The conclusion I came to was a PS90. In retrospect it was the wrong solution as they are probably just as well served with a 10/22 or M&P 15-22.

I had my eyes opened even more when, after building up the PS90, and having my slightly statured daughter compare it to an 11.5" AR, she told me she favored the AR. Which of course ballistically is a superb answer. Sigh.

For those with experience with both: Do a PCC in 9mm and 5.56 SBR recoil the same or is the 5.56 easier to control?

[Joe in PNG]

I'm also interested in seeing how the Brownells BRN-180 works out as either an SBR or braced pistol.

[Doc_Glock]

I'd rather have a handgun in a real world encounter, unless I could have a rifle caliber weapon. The risks of carrying a PDW size pistol caliber long gun don't outweigh the benefits in accuracy and capacity for me. Long gun = disadvantages for: ease of carry, time to deploy, stowing post incident, grappling, and appearance to the 'public'. As well, I've never seen a PCC that had the reliability of a quality 9mm auto.


Plus 1000.

I love how this thread has exploded. I think we all love these small shoulder fired weapons. They are just cool. Unfortunately, for me, I just don't think they are that useful. I am simply not willing to carry a folded shoulder fired weapon around in a bag or car with me all the time. If I am home I want something bigger and more capable available. Same if I were in the field.

[ccmdfd]

I was just looking at a very nice Arsenal pistol in x39, with a folding brace. While I always wanted a “Krink,” it seems like the .300 BLK in an eight inch AR seems better in so many ways?

Is the Arsenal shorter than the 300, easier to conceal?

cc

[TGS]

For those with experience with both: Do a PCC in 9mm and 5.56 SBR recoil the same or is the 5.56 easier to control?

Depends on the gun.

Our Mk18s have a softer recoil impulse and are just as easy, if not easier to control as our old Colt SMGs.

[Wake27]

I was going to post almost this same thing. For me, originally the PDW type weapon was something for the smaller statured, weaker, less trained shooters in the home to have a "rule 1" gun. The conclusion I came to was a PS90. In retrospect it was the wrong solution as they are probably just as well served with a 10/22 or M&P 15-22.

I had my eyes opened even more when, after building up the PS90, and having my slightly statured daughter compare it to an 11.5" AR, she told me she favored the AR. Which of course ballistically is a superb answer. Sigh.

For those with experience with both: Do a PCC in 9mm and 5.56 SBR recoil the same or is the 5.56 easier to control?

Recoil is dependent on the system. From what I’ve heard and seen (no personal experience), standard blowback might be about the same as 5.56, or at least its more than most people expect. Some of the more advanced systems like the CMMG Guard, MP5, or APC9 have less recoil due to buffers, radial delayed blowback, etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Wake27]

Depends on the gun.

Our Mk18s have a softer recoil impulse and are just as easy, if not easier to control as our old Colt SMGs.

Out of curiosity, what MDs do you guys use on the MK18s?


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[PNWTO]

Any experience here with the Flux MP17? It looks handy for the right use.

https://www.fluxdefense.com/shop/mp17-pistol-brace-version

[Rick R]

Just out of curiosity how heavy are most PCC (or for that matter PDW) once they are set up?

FWIW My little 10.5” blaster is #6.2 unloaded with RDS and sling. The whole bag it rides in is #22 and fits behind the drivers seat of my quadcab Tacoma. It’s no problem to schlepp it out to the truck without raising eyebrows, and it usually only goes if I’m traveling more than an hour away from home or staying overnight.

[Clusterfrack]

AR pistol: 6.5lbs. AK SBR: 7.75lbs. AR is 3” longer, but I can shave an inch with a shorter blast can.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200331/ddbe89f3693680bb61bb9cc84dd9b67e.jpg

[jandbj]

Any experience here with the Flux MP17? It looks handy for the right use.

https://www.fluxdefense.com/shop/mp17-pistol-brace-version

Haven’t tried one but I did order a recover tactical brace thingy to try with my g19 with a red dot. Interesting combination of lightweight, compact, and inexpensive for something that will likely only be a range toy anyway.
https://www.recovertactical.com/product/recover-tactical-20-20-stabilizer-kit-for-glock-also-umarex-cybergun/

[TGS]

Out of curiosity, what MDs do you guys use on the MK18s?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

MD=Muzzle Device?

Just birdcage flash hiders.

[Wake27]

MD=Muzzle Device?

Just birdcage flash hiders.

Yeah, wasn't sure if you guys had RC2s and one or more of their associated mounts.