Let's talk PDW's

[El Cid]

Well, I annoy people I don't shoot with, so why should not spread the love?;)
Seriously though, can you expand on that a little? Too blasty? I would think a suppressed version would be about perfect.
But again, I don't know what I don't know?

Lol! No. Not annoy people you shoot with... people you shoot. The caliber is anemic and ineffective. If you shoot someone with a 4.6 expect them to ask you to stop. Much like the P90 with 5.7x28. It’s one of the reasons the SOF community wanted 300BLK since it’s quiet and smaller like the MP7 but more effective at putting down an adversary.

[wvincent]

Lol! No. Not annoy people you shoot with... people you shoot. The caliber is anemic and ineffective. If you shoot someone with a 4.6 expect them to ask you to stop. Much like the P90 with 5.7x28. It’s one of the reasons the SOF community wanted 300BLK since it’s quiet and smaller like the MP7 but more effective at putting down an adversary.

Gotcha!! And thanks for the clarification. I guess I'm guilty of buying into the HK overhype. Like that pic of ST 6 posing with a combo of 416's and P97's.
I was kind of hoping that the P97 was the PS90 that actually worked.

F*ck, I totally misread that statement of yours, I think I need a nap. Or a Bourbon. Or both:D

[rob_s]

Looking for something else I stumbled on this. I’m familiar with the DSG name but can’t recollect if they’re a quality brand or not.
https://dsgarms.com/complete-uppers-kt-dsg-pbk-0089

They offer the LAW folder as a kit with their brace, would be nice if they’d do a version of the above kit with the LAW parts included.
https://dsgarms.com/rifle-accessories-kt-sba3-01-law-blk


https://dsgarms.com/images/thumbs/004/0041938_sba3-pistol-build-kit-w-dsg-9-300blk-duty-series-upper-w-g4-m-lok-rail.jpeg

[El Cid]

Looking for something else I stumbled on this. I’m familiar with the DSG name but can’t recollect if they’re a quality brand or not.
https://dsgarms.com/complete-uppers-kt-dsg-pbk-0089

They offer the LAW folder as a kit with their brace, would be nice if they’d do a version of the above kit with the LAW parts included.
https://dsgarms.com/rifle-accessories-kt-sba3-01-law-blk


https://dsgarms.com/images/thumbs/004/0041938_sba3-pistol-build-kit-w-dsg-9-300blk-duty-series-upper-w-g4-m-lok-rail.jpeg

I’ve been impressed with pretty much everything I get from DSG Arms. Their barrels are made by Aero/BA and I suspect they don’t manufacture much in house but buy quality parts.

[Chance]

After 176 pages, I've come to the conclusion that the HK MP7 is probably the ultimate PDW. Too bad they never released a civilian variant.

Worthwhile sticky thread from DocGKR in the ammunition sub-forum: Small Caliber PDW's: FN 5.7 mm/HK 4.6 mm (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4338-Small-Caliber-PDW-s-FN-5-7-mm-HK-4-6-mm).

[CrazyEddie]

Thanks to Xhado to introducing me to PF in response to my post on another forum, and to this thread and the two that go hand-in-hand ("Carrying-and-caring-for-the-PDW" and "Official-SIG-Rattler-owner-fan-boy-nut-hugger-thread"). I've read them all. I was debating the Rattler, Noveske Diplomat, Q HB or SW, or the DD, and *think* that I've joined the Rattler bandwagon (at least in terms of wanting one, but of course there are not any to be had....). By way of background, I've just received my second SBR from jail (DD 300 BLK upper and BCG lower) and didn't like the length (around 27"), so I've got it at the LGS to swap to a Maxim collapsible stock.

After all of that $, I'm now wishing for something shorter, and as a pistol so I don't need permission for a road trip out of state. After reading all of the above (some was bleary eyed due to late night or a few cold ones), I have a few dumb questions:


Rattler - to get the folding stock, that's an upgrade after purchase, right?
Has anyone even considered the Springfiled Edge PDW? I see a few others come up every 10 or so pages (Maxim), but never that one. Too new? Just not as dependable?
Love the bag questions, but for stowing in the car, has anyone seen a trunk safe that has two access sides? I'd like one that I can access from the trunk/back of the car, but it would be cool to be able to put into the trunk safe from the folded down back seat. (Don't want someone watching me put something into the trunk to think "a ha! I need to see what's in there!" even with a trunk that's locked. Maybe just positioning it far enough back in the trunk would be sufficient, except for those that open with the same direction as the trunk lid.
Looks like after I capitulate and buy the Rattler that it's just the beginning and I will be asking about slings, ammo choices, etc. Not a bad thing - I live for researching and this sort of thing.

Thanks to everyone for such a great thread!

[flyrodr]

I have a few dumb questions:


Rattler - to get the folding stock, that's an upgrade after purchase, right?
Has anyone even considered the Springfiled Edge PDW? I see a few others come up every 10 or so pages (Maxim), but never that one. Too new? Just not as dependable?
Love the bag questions, but for stowing in the car, has anyone seen a trunk safe that has two access sides? I'd like one that I can access from the trunk/back of the car, but it would be cool to be able to put into the trunk safe from the folded down back seat. (Don't want someone watching me put something into the trunk to think "a ha! I need to see what's in there!" even with a trunk that's locked. Maybe just positioning it far enough back in the trunk would be sufficient, except for those that open with the same direction as the trunk lid.
Looks like after I capitulate and buy the Rattler that it's just the beginning and I will be asking about slings, ammo choices, etc. Not a bad thing - I live for researching and this sort of thing.

Thanks to everyone for such a great thread!

The Rattler comes in two versions, the SBR and PCB. You want the latter (Pivoting Contour Brace), the features of which have satisfied the ATF's definition of "pistol". It comes with that brace.

No knowledge of the Springfield Edge.

Trunk safe: There are many variations and degrees of security. If you're not intending to more/less bolt a box into the vehicle (not a simple task on many, as there are many places you wouldn't want to drill a hole, e.g., gas tank, exhaust system, wiring harness, etc.), but instead are going to attach it with a suitable cable/padlock, you could simply swivel it around if you access it from the rear seat back opening. A cabling system, of course, assumes you have an accessible seat frame or other substantial element to fasten one end of the cable to. Not as secure as a bolt-in, but either way, you will want to determine which is your weakest "link": your lock, hinge, cable, mounting system, etc. And which set up is satisfactory for your needs (just a weapon, or also other valuables, etc.).

Lots of post-purchase options. Beginning with sights, as the Rattler comes without. Best to proceed slowly, as there are lots of attractive, expensive options. Some are well worth the cost . . .

The threads you've been reading on P-F have lots of terrific suggestions.

[MDFA]

The Rattler comes in two versions, the SBR and PCB. You want the latter (Pivoting Contour Brace), the features of which have satisfied the ATF's definition of "pistol". It comes with that brace.

No knowledge of the Springfield Edge.

Trunk safe: There are many variations and degrees of security. If you're not intending to more/less bolt a box into the vehicle (not a simple task on many, as there are many places you wouldn't want to drill a hole, e.g., gas tank, exhaust system, wiring harness, etc.), but instead are going to attach it with a suitable cable/padlock, you could simply swivel it around if you access it from the rear seat back opening. A cabling system, of course, assumes you have an accessible seat frame or other substantial element to fasten one end of the cable to. Not as secure as a bolt-in, but either way, you will want to determine which is your weakest "link": your lock, hinge, cable, mounting system, etc. And which set up is satisfactory for your needs (just a weapon, or also other valuables, etc.).

Lots of post-purchase options. Beginning with sights, as the Rattler comes without. Best to proceed slowly, as there are lots of attractive, expensive options. Some are well worth the cost . . .

The threads you've been reading on P-F have lots of terrific suggestions.

Here is my Tuffy Trunk (https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Tuffy+trunk&ref=nb_sb_noss_2) in my Jeep. It's cabled to the seat mounts and locked inside. I also drilled into the floor that it sits on and used bolts and wingnuts which are inside the trunk to secure it to the floor. If someone broke into the vehicle and cut the cables they would have to remove the trunk and walk around with an approximately 3 x 5 foot piece of plywood attached. It holds my Saint Pistol and bags with room to spare. Since I took the photos I covered the top of the trunk with a cheap floor mat I bought at Walmart. It's attached with double sided tape and cut to fit. It blends the top into the surrounding area, and provides a non slip surface.5918059181

[LittleLebowski]

Seriously, the new 10” BRN-180 .300BO is very tempting.

https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/receivers/upper-receivers/brn-180s-ar-15-300-blk-complete-upper-receiver-assembly-prod136151.aspx

[HeavyDuty]

Here is my Tuffy Trunk (https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Tuffy+trunk&ref=nb_sb_noss_2) in my Jeep. It's cabled to the seat mounts and locked inside. I also drilled into the floor that it sits on and used bolts and wingnuts which are inside the trunk to secure it to the floor. If someone broke into the vehicle and cut the cables they would have to remove the trunk and walk around with an approximately 3 x 5 foot piece of plywood attached. It holds my Saint Pistol and bags with room to spare. Since I took the photos I covered the top of the trunk with a cheap floor mat I bought at Walmart. It's attached with double sided tape and cut to fit. It blends the top into the surrounding area, and provides a non slip surface.5918059181

Nice solution! Have you posted about your Saint? Search didn’t turn up anything just now - not even this post.

[CrazyEddie]

Nice solution! Have you posted about your Saint? Search didn’t turn up anything just now - not even this post.

I had the same question about the Saint. Any feedback on it would be much appreciated.

I got my SBR back the other day from my LGS after he swapped out the BCM (typo in my post above) stock for a Maxim. Shaved off only a couple of inches, but it also made me see that going for super short has a trade-off, at least for me at 6'2" - at full extension it just feels a bit short for me.

[Not HighSpeed]

Seriously, the new 10” BRN-180 .300BO is very tempting.

https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/receivers/upper-receivers/brn-180s-ar-15-300-blk-complete-upper-receiver-assembly-prod136151.aspx

I have a buddy getting one to review for Brownell's. I look forward to trying it out with him when it arrives.

[MDFA]

I had the same question about the Saint. Any feedback on it would be much appreciated.

I got my SBR back the other day from my LGS after he swapped out the BCM (typo in my post above) stock for a Maxim. Shaved off only a couple of inches, but it also made me see that going for super short has a trade-off, at least for me at 6'2" - at full extension it just feels a bit short for me.

Here's my Saint Edge Pistol in 5.56. I added the Streamlight Protac 2 Rail Light and remote switch, Vickers Sling, Aimpoint PRO Optic and MagPul Pro BUIS sights. It shoots MK262 77gr. OTM very well. I really like the Maxim Brace. I'm your height and the stock works for me. However I usually run any stock on a shorter position rather than full extension.

59200

[Nephrology]

Looking for something else I stumbled on this. I’m familiar with the DSG name but can’t recollect if they’re a quality brand or not.
https://dsgarms.com/complete-uppers-kt-dsg-pbk-0089

They offer the LAW folder as a kit with their brace, would be nice if they’d do a version of the above kit with the LAW parts included.
https://dsgarms.com/rifle-accessories-kt-sba3-01-law-blk


https://dsgarms.com/images/thumbs/004/0041938_sba3-pistol-build-kit-w-dsg-9-300blk-duty-series-upper-w-g4-m-lok-rail.jpeg

I have one of their pistol kits (11.5" 5.56) and a complete match grade upper (16" 5.56). Both have been great so far, a little under 1k rounds through the 11.5" and 400 through the 16". Feeds fires extracts no problem. The SBR is nicely gassed too, very mild shooter, no problems even with weak steel .223.

[5pins]

Finally got everything together and put this together.

59325

[Spartan1980]

Several Vertx bags on sale at Woot.

Includes Gamut and Commuter Slings 2.0 and the XL too (https://sport.woot.com/plus/first-tactical-vertx-gear?ref=w_cnt_wp_11)

[Dan_S]

Seriously, the new 10” BRN-180 .300BO is very tempting.

https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/receivers/upper-receivers/brn-180s-ar-15-300-blk-complete-upper-receiver-assembly-prod136151.aspx


Why? Not being sarcastic, genuinely interested in your take.

Wouldnt adding a piston and all, is a net loss for reliably running subs and supers, and then adding in a can?

While I’m interested in the 300blk, I also have zero interest in ‘tinkering’ to get something to function reliably either.

[Casual Friday]

I purchased a Vertx Commuter Sling 2.0 from Amazon yesterday, it's the original and not the 2.0 but it's in a very non tactical color way. It was $99.99/shipped when I bought it and now it's up to $130, which I still think is a good price. This will give me the option to carry my 10.5" with Law Folder and my form 1 K can I'm working on if the situation dictates that.

https://www.amazon.com/Vertx-EDC-COMMUTER-SLING-VTX5075/dp/B07J4ZCD9W/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=vertx+commuter+sling+xl&qid=1598453568&sr=8-3

[Mike C]

I purchased a Vertx Commuter Sling 2.0 from Amazon yesterday, it's the original and not the 2.0 but it's in a very non tactical color way. It was $99.99/shipped when I bought it and now it's up to $130, which I still think is a good price. This will give me the option to carry my 10.5" with Law Folder and my form 1 K can I'm working on if the situation dictates that.

https://www.amazon.com/Vertx-EDC-COMMUTER-SLING-VTX5075/dp/B07J4ZCD9W/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=vertx+commuter+sling+xl&qid=1598453568&sr=8-3

Premier Body Armor makes inserts for these. I have one for mine. IIIA, and I believe they are making lightweight plate inserts now as well.

https://premierbodyarmor.com/collections/bulletproof-backpack-inserts-all/products/commuter-sling-2-0-level-iiia-insert

ETA: it is UHMWPE so no M855 stoppage and I think the good Doc posted about this stuff being less than ideal but with a soft backer it will offer a lot in a really light package. I have been working with my bag a lot and the Sling 2.0 can be spun around quickly to provide decent coverage or be given to children and used in a shield format. So far better investment than the Rattler.

[Casual Friday]

I purchased a Vertx Commuter Sling XL from Amazon yesterday, it's the original and not the 2.0 but it's in a very non tactical color way. It was $99.99/shipped when I bought it and now it's up to $130, which I still think is a good price. This will give me the option to carry my 10.5" with Law Folder and my form 1 K can I'm working on if the situation dictates that.

https://www.amazon.com/Vertx-EDC-COMMUTER-SLING-VTX5075/dp/B07J4ZCD9W/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=vertx+commuter+sling+xl&qid=1598453568&sr=8-3

I'm outside the edit window but I'm an idiot and originally typed 2.0 instead of XL.

[Parf]

The Vertex Gamut 2.0 will close on a 11.5 with Law folder, but it's *tight*, and gently distorts the bag. I'm satisfied with it, and it's a great bag for this purpose, but I think it would be ideal for a 10.5 bbl. Bag's got a great shape and firmness to it. Not too deep, not floppy, still looks neat loaded with too much BS when I go to the range, and is comfortable to carry. Recommended.

[TGS]

Finally got everything together and put this together.

59325

Couldn't wait to ditch those.

The fact they're cool these days blows my mind. The fact we bought them in the late 90s to replace our Uzis instead of keeping the Uzi or buying MP5s blows my mind, as well.


The Vertex Gamut 2.0 will close on a 11.5 with Law folder, but it's *tight*, and gently distorts the bag. I'm satisfied with it, and it's a great bag for this purpose, but I think it would be ideal for a 10.5 bbl. Bag's got a great shape and firmness to it. Not too deep, not floppy, still looks neat loaded with too much BS when I go to the range, and is comfortable to carry. Recommended.

As detailed earlier in the thread with description and pictures, the 10.5" is not a perfect fit unless you stow it butt-down/muzzle up, which isn't great for deployment. A muzzle down orientation still results in the bag being distorted and having to work the zipper over the LAW instead of cleanly zipping shut.

[wvincent]

Couldn't wait to ditch those.

The fact they're cool these days blows my mind. The fact we bought them in the late 90s to replace our Uzis instead of keeping the Uzi or buying MP5s blows my mind, as well.
59499

Quit making me feel "dirty" for wanting one.;)

[TGS]

59499

Quit making me feel "dirty" for wanting one.;)

Do the DOE build. They're at least cool from a historical uniqueness perspective.

I guess one of the benefits of the Colt SMG is that the FSB area doesn't get very hot compared to a DI AR15. So, with the classic handguards, I gripped it up front using the rear of the FSB as a hand stop, straddling the sling swivel with my fingers. It allowed me to get a more efficient grip, comparable in extension to using a lo-pro rail system on a 10" gun.

[wvincent]

Do the DOE build. They're at least cool from a historical uniqueness perspective.

Dammit, now I have a new poster girl. She's pretty Alt, but hot in her own special way.
59501

This is pic pretty accurate?
Would love to find a "build" sheet.

[GyroF-16]

The Vertex Gamut 2.0 will close on a 11.5 with Law folder, but it's *tight*, and gently distorts the bag. I'm satisfied with it, and it's a great bag for this purpose, but I think it would be ideal for a 10.5 bbl. Bag's got a great shape and firmness to it. Not too deep, not floppy, still looks neat loaded with too much BS when I go to the range, and is comfortable to carry. Recommended.

FWIW, my Gamut Checkpoint fits a 11.5” with a LAW. Fits diagonally in the main compartment without distortion.

[5pins]

59499

Quit making me feel "dirty" for wanting one.;)

I thought about SBR'ing it but $200 is a lot of money just to put a stock on it.

[wvincent]

I thought about SBR'ing it but $200 is a lot of money just to put a stock on it.

I think it's good as a pistol, for me.
I just spent the last hour or so searching for parts for a build.

Care to share build details?

[5pins]

I think it's good as a pistol, for me.
I just spent the last hour or so searching for parts for a build.

Care to share build details?

The upper is a Colt SMG upper I luck into. The lower is a PSA M4 carbine and a shockwave brace. The rest is just parts I had laying around.

[wvincent]

The upper is a Colt SMG upper I luck into. The lower is a PSA M4 carbine and a shockwave brace. The rest is just parts I had laying around.

Yeah, PSA lower out of stock right now. On the notification list.
But, I'm gonna keep looking. I really want to build this. It fits a niche for me.

[TGS]

Yeah, PSA lower out of stock right now. On the notification list.
But, I'm gonna keep looking. I really want to build this. It fits a niche for me.

I've been looking as well, for curiosities sake. There's some threads on ARFCOM, fwiw. Sounds like there's two manufacturers for the DOE-specific parts, with long lead times and stuff done in small batches.

I'd say it's a comparable build to doing a Colt 607: You gon' pay.

[wvincent]

I've been looking as well, for curiosities sake. There's some threads on ARFCOM, fwiw. Sounds like there's two manufacturers for the DOE-specific parts, with long lead times and stuff done in small batches.

I'd say it's a comparable build to doing a Colt 607: You gon' pay.

That's fine, what with all this social distancing, I'll just take it out my "weekend in Vegas with Russian Hookers Fund". ;) Ain't like that was getting used anyhow.

If you fall into some parts give me a shout.

[JCS]

I’m quite late to the game. Someone help catch me up. For an AR style pistol what’s the recommended caliber? 5.56, 300 blk, or 9mm. I know it’s not a simple answer but if I’m just looking to buy something ready to go what should I look for in terms of caliber that’s reliable ?

[Caballoflaco]

I’m quite late to the game. Someone help catch me up. For an AR style pistol what’s the recommended caliber? 5.56, 300 blk, or 9mm. I know it’s not a simple answer but if I’m just looking to buy something ready to go what should I look for in terms of caliber that’s reliable ?

I think for the foreseeable future the most important question is what ammo do you have stockpiled? Now is not the time for adding additional calibers. I’d go that route first and then if the supply side catches up you can add additional uppers in other calibers.

[Rex G]

I’m quite late to the game. Someone help catch me up. For an AR style pistol what’s the recommended caliber? 5.56, 300 blk, or 9mm. I know it’s not a simple answer but if I’m just looking to buy something ready to go what should I look for in terms of caliber that’s reliable ?

I recommend reading through the posts. ;)

300 AAC/BLK is, reportedly, less-obnoxious than .223/5.56 when fired from short barrels, but, good luck finding 300 AAC/BLK ammo, whereas one can find quality 5.56, in quantity, with a bit of patience. Some sellers will ration 300 ammo, which is why I have three boxes of this load, three boxes of that load, and so on, rather than having been able to get hundreds of any one load.

I first ran into a general shortage of 300 AAC/BLK in 2018, when I bought my DDM4 V7P, which almost led to my trading it. It gathered dust, for a while. After I decided to keep it, earlier this year, I ran into the rationing situation.

I have gathered that one needs to function-test 300 AAC/BLK weapons, with every bullet weight that one intends to use for serious purposes. Someday, I will manage to get my 300 AR pistol sufficiently vetted, to consider it a defensive weapon, rather than a home decoration.

[5pins]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq9AV0LAMdk&t=0s

[Grey]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq9AV0LAMdk&t=0s

Just came to post this - good video.

[RancidSumo]

That LG video introduced me to a stock I hadn't seen before. Anyone have experience with the LWRCI UCIW? I'm trying to get my PDW short enough to go in a backpack without folding and that looks like a solid option. I was going to go with a Maxim CQB, but now wonder if something more traditional like the LWRCI option is better for only an extra .4" in collapsed length.

[Rex G]

That LG video introduced me to a stock I hadn't seen before. Anyone have experience with the LWRCI UCIW? I'm trying to get my PDW short enough to go in a backpack without folding and that looks like a solid option. I was going to go with a Maxim CQB, but now wonder if something more traditional like the LWRCI option is better for only an extra .4" in collapsed length.

The UCIW seems similar, in concept, to the LMT PDW, of which I recently took delivery, as complete lowers, from Primary Arms. I have no trigger time, yet, so cannot provide a user report. The LMT PDW is compatible with a standard true-MILSPEC-dimension bolt carrier, into which a weight is inserted, to compensate for the smaller/lighter buffer. (The instructions warn that not not all third-party bolt carriers are true to MILSPEC.)

[ScotchMan]

Enjoyed that Lucky Gunner video, but I keep coming back to the question is the juice worth the squeeze over the 9mm pistol you are already carrying. The time needed to deploy the gun, the legal implications of using one, the significant logistics and inconvenience of having the thing with you, all so you can shoot faster and marginally further (particularly if comparing to a red dot-equipped pistol).

To me this whole PDW thing is only worthwhile if it includes the use of rifle calibers. I'm not sure why one would go with a 9mm PDW over .300 Blackout, assuming one had access to ammo. If you can't conceal carry a pistol, or absolutely require to shoot suppressed, or a couple other niche cases, maybe, but for the majority of folks it seems like pistol caliber PDWs aren't worth it.

[Rex G]

Enjoyed that Lucky Gunner video, but I keep coming back to the question is the juice worth the squeeze over the 9mm pistol you are already carrying. The time needed to deploy the gun, the legal implications of using one, the significant logistics and inconvenience of having the thing with you, all so you can shoot faster and marginally further (particularly if comparing to a red dot-equipped pistol).

To me this whole PDW thing is only worthwhile if it includes the use of rifle calibers. I'm not sure why one would go with a 9mm PDW over .300 Blackout, assuming one had access to ammo. If you can't conceal carry a pistol, or absolutely require to shoot suppressed, or a couple other niche cases, maybe, but for the majority of folks it seems like pistol caliber PDWs aren't worth it.

I agree with you, regarding 9mm, at least in AR15-ish receivers, as that is quite a bit of bulk, to be feeding and firing a duty pistol cartridge. I will concede, of course, that most folks will shoot a 9mm carbine better than a 9mm duty pistol.

A lever rifle, firing a suitably-loaded revolver cartridge, does provide notably more velocity, compared to its handgun counterparts, though these “Trapper” carbines will not fit into the generally-accepted PDW size envelope. They are, however, quite slender, so will fit some storage situations quite well. One has to pick the cartridge carefully, as some of the lower-pressure revolver cartridges’ bullets will actually exit a rifle-length barrel at a lower velocity, due to barrel friction after the powder has all been burned.

A problem with 300 AAC/BLK, at present, is availability; it is, for now, largely a roll-your-own proposition. I have only managed to acquire a few hundred 300 AAC/BLK super-sonics, so have not even bothered mounting sights, or an optic, on my Daniel Defense DDM4 V7P. As it has a LAW folder, I might swap a 16” skinny-barrel upper onto it, and use as a foldable carbine, for now.

[CleverNickname]

That LG video introduced me to a stock I hadn't seen before. Anyone have experience with the LWRCI UCIW? I'm trying to get my PDW short enough to go in a backpack without folding and that looks like a solid option. I was going to go with a Maxim CQB, but now wonder if something more traditional like the LWRCI option is better for only an extra .4" in collapsed length.

I have two, one on an milspec SBRed lower I use with 5.56mm and 300BLK, and another on a Colt-style 9mm SBRed lower (with a heavier aftermarket buffer due to it being 9mm). I've never had an issue with the UCIW. It gives a much better cheekweld than the dual-rod-style collapsible stocks like the Maxim, and is a lot cheaper. It is a smidge longer, but I really think the other advantages outweigh that. If someone is really concerned about length when stored, then they should look into something with a true folding stock, which will give a much more dramatic length reduction.

[ScotchMan]

A problem with 300 AAC/BLK, at present, is availability; it is, at present, largely a roll-your-own proposition. I have only managed to acquire a few hundred 300 AAC/BLK super-sonics, so have not even bothered mounting sights, or an optic, on my Daniel Defense DDM4 V7P. As it has a LAW folder, I might swap a 16” skinny-barrel upper onto it, and use as a foldable carbine, for now.

Right I agree, even before the present situation .300BLK was not at a place where I was willing to adopt it yet. So the PDW concept, for me, remains best served by a IWI X95 in 5.56 as I posted 60 pages ago. Too heavy and long for most of what people are going for though.

[DMCutter]

Right I agree, even before the present situation .300BLK was not at a place where I was willing to adopt it yet. So the PDW concept, for me, remains best served by a IWI X95 in 5.56 as I posted 60 pages ago. Too heavy and long for most of what people are going for though.
I converted my X95 to .300 when I got my Hybrid 46 because I thought it would make a better suppressor host than 5.56. I didn't consider that my subsonic wouldn't be subsonic with a 16" barrel. I like the rearward weight bias because it's easier on my irreparably torn left rotator cuff than my M4gery but it's certainly not a bag gun. Since Rattlers are unobtainium I reckon I'll stick with my MPX if things get so dire I need more than a pistol.

[Hambo]

Couldn't wait to ditch those.

The fact they're cool these days blows my mind. The fact we bought them in the late 90s to replace our Uzis instead of keeping the Uzi or buying MP5s blows my mind, as well.

The only thing those had going for them was "the manual of arms is the same for as your AR/M16/M4 rifles/carbines", and I think they were cheaper than MP5s. Magic words to those with purchasing authority.

[rob_s]

That LG video introduced me to a stock I hadn't seen before. Anyone have experience with the LWRCI UCIW? I'm trying to get my PDW short enough to go in a backpack without folding and that looks like a solid option. I was going to go with a Maxim CQB, but now wonder if something more traditional like the LWRCI option is better for only an extra .4" in collapsed length.

I’m 99% sure I’ve had one sitting in a box for 5+ years looking for a gun to get mounted on...

[jeep45238]

Enjoyed that Lucky Gunner video, but I keep coming back to the question is the juice worth the squeeze over the 9mm pistol you are already carrying. The time needed to deploy the gun, the legal implications of using one, the significant logistics and inconvenience of having the thing with you, all so you can shoot faster and marginally further (particularly if comparing to a red dot-equipped pistol).

To me this whole PDW thing is only worthwhile if it includes the use of rifle calibers. I'm not sure why one would go with a 9mm PDW over .300 Blackout, assuming one had access to ammo. If you can't conceal carry a pistol, or absolutely require to shoot suppressed, or a couple other niche cases, maybe, but for the majority of folks it seems like pistol caliber PDWs aren't worth it.

I view them as separate tools in the toolbox. The pistol for the immediate response. The PDW .300BLK for complete acknowledgment that the situation around me/my vehicle has evolved into something my pistol can not handle, and takes a few moments to preemptively setup.

[CleverNickname]

I view them as separate tools in the toolbox. The pistol for the immediate response. The PDW .300BLK for complete acknowledgment that the situation around me/my vehicle has evolved into something my pistol can not handle, and takes a few moments to preemptively setup.

I think Scotchman was referring to the Lucky Gunner PDW also being in 9mm. A PDW might be worth it if you're going from a 9mm pistol to 5.56mm or 300 BLK, but if you're going from a 9mm pistol to a 9mm PDW, is the PDW really worth the trouble?

[jeep45238]

I think Scotchman was referring to the Lucky Gunner PDW also being in 9mm. A PDW might be worth it if you're going from a 9mm pistol to 5.56mm or 300 BLK, but if you're going from a 9mm pistol to a 9mm PDW, is the PDW really worth the trouble?

Id wager that depends on a shot timer with multiple targets, and exceeding 20 round strings.

For a lot of people, a stock dramatically increases ability to get more rounds down range in a given time on more targets.

[JCS]

I think for the foreseeable future the most important question is what ammo do you have stockpiled? Now is not the time for adding additional calibers. I’d go that route first and then if the supply side catches up you can add additional uppers in other calibers.


Just came to post this - good video.

Working my way through the thread. Great points on not adding new calibers. For me that means either 9mm or 5.56. The LG video makes me think a 9mm ar pistol is my best option. I'm gonna go the budget route and try and keep it under $1,000. I wasn't familiar with the pmag conversion kits for 9mm or their reliability so I will need to research that. It probably makes the most sense for me to go with a Glock mag lower. I have a decent amount of 17 round mags and they are cheap if I wanna buy some 21 round mags or larger.

[spelingmastir]

https://survivalblog.com/personal-defense-weapon-pdw-bag-guns-joe-h/

[rob_s]

Id wager that depends on a shot timer with multiple targets, and exceeding 20 round strings.

For a lot of people, a stock dramatically increases ability to get more rounds down range in a given time on more targets.

That’s a pretty good point, actually. Attend any USPSA match where there’s pistols and PCCs and you’ll find the PCCs pretty consistently beating the pistols. Even a mediocre shooter with a PCC will out score a pretty good shooter with a pistol.

[littlejerry]

If we're talking 9mm PDW, the Ruger PC charger is very appealing and inexpensive. Folding brace/stock, Glock mags, factory support(vs franken AR builds).

Curious if anyone has put it through it's paces.

[shane45]

IIRC the consensus was that an avg or below avg shooter will likely benefit a lot in terms of accuracy and speed with a 9mm pdw, an above avg to excellent shooter will likely not see as nearly as much difference. Im still in the rifle caliber pistol camp. But that apc in 10mm did catch my attention :)

[Casual Friday]

If we're talking 9mm PDW, the Ruger PC charger is very appealing and inexpensive. Folding brace/stock, Glock mags, factory support(vs franken AR builds).

Curious if anyone has put it through it's paces.

If I were going to implement a 9mm PDW it would be with a gun like the PC Charger or something else that was designed around the caliber rather than shoehorning it into an AR. I watched the LG video and the CMMG variant looks like it might be a contender until I got to the part where they use PMAG inserts for magazines. I'd love to see some long term usage reports on those but they look flimsy to me. I applaud him for chopping one down and melting it back together to fit a 20 round PMAG just to see if it were possible but I wouldn't want to rely on that for serious use.

[Velo Dog]

After watching this breakdown of the Kenosha shooting, I am even more convinced that a rifle caliber is worth the noise and blast.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKAucs4dd3U
The most relevant comments start at 11:15 and last for about 2 minutes. Sometimes it's about more power instead of group size or splits.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKAucs4dd3U

[Sensei]

After watching this breakdown of the Kenosha shooting, I am even more convinced that a rifle caliber is worth the noise and blast.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKAucs4dd3U
The most relevant comments start at 11:15 and last for about 2 minutes. Sometimes it's about more power instead of group size or splits.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKAucs4dd3U

That assumes that you are in a situation where you can openly carry a rifle. This discussion is predicated on the fact that it is often unacceptable to open carry a rifle in public. In that circumstance, a PDW that can be concealed is needed.

For me, the decision to use a PCC vs rifle is largely determined by what size barrel I can conceal. Rifles have generally been my go to when the circumstances allow me to use a backpack that will accommodate 9” of barrel. Otherwise, I use an MP5K with folding stock when carrying a handbag.

Historically, I’ve had little use in rifle calibers launched from sub-10” barrels. This is especially true when it comes to 5.56 which often becomes a glorified and unreliable .22cal hole punch when fired from 6-7” barrels (barely 2000 fps for 64 grain pushed by 556 powder); I’d rather have a well performing 9mm JHP. The 300blk has me rethinking this a little. A 110 grain bullet pushed to 2100 fps from a 9” 300blk barrel has a much better temp cavity than a 64 grain 556 pushed at similar speeds. The ultra short Sig Rattler is still probably pretty reasonable for very close range work as the 110 Barnes black tip likely has significant temp cavitation at 1700-1800 fps. However, I have serious reservations about the terminal performance of even the 110 Barnes when velocities get below 1600-1700 fps. I know it may still expand, but I’m not sure that its terminal performance beats a good 9mm JHP at those lower velocities when temp cavity starts to degrade.

[GJM]

I wonder if the guy in Kenosha had a concealed pistol and maybe a Rattler in a small pack, whether he would have been targeted like he was with an open carry rifle?

[Ed L]

I wonder if the guy in Kenosha had a concealed pistol and maybe a Rattler in a small pack, whether he would have been targeted like he was with an open carry rifle?

I think the guys who attacked him recognized him from the earlier confrontation with the people at the gas station, and they would have jumped if they found him alone whether he was armed or not. It seems as though the rioters as a whole have gotten accustomed to mouthing off and threatening people who are openly armed. Because of the understandable and sensible restraint that the people who they confronted had exhibited, the rioters had the expectation that these people would not shoot them and thus became emboldened and escalated their aggression. I am afraid that we are going to see this play out more--both with a general escalation of aggression and people getting shot as a result. But that is a whole different topic.

[rob_s]

I wonder if the guy in Kenosha had a concealed pistol and maybe a Rattler in a small pack, whether he would have been targeted like he was with an open carry rifle?

Much like most things related to the broader topic of self defense (The more time I spend around guns and training, the more I learn about how to avoid ever needing one in the first place) if he was the kind of person that had the good sense to keep his shit concealed he probably also would be the kind of person that wouldn’t have been within 100 miles of that situation...

[Ed L]

To clarify what I wrote, the guy who initially attacked the kid probably recognized him from the confrontation with earlier -- when the kid was with a group of people who were guarding the gas station where the attacker was getting in people's faces and screaming, "Shoot me, N!##a!" That attacker was worked up and agitated, and I have a feeling he would have been confrontational with anyone he encountered in the area who did not like they were part of the rioters.

The other attackers who later chased the kid and got shot may have recognized him, but more likely responded when they saw him running and someone screamed to get him because he shot someone. The kid was running with a gun, and not shooting, and there were other people chasing him, so I would guess that their inclination was to chase him as well.

Like Rob_S and most sensible people, I would not want to be traveling through or walking through a zone like that, period. I imagine that if you did not resemble the rioters/protesters in age/dress/demeanor, you would get hassled, challenged, possibly attacked.

If you thought that you somehow might wind up having to go out among them--like if your car broke down or you got trapped in riot area, try getting a a hoodie with the anarchy symbol on it--the red capital letter A with a circle around it. Wear the hoodie with the hood pulled up and some type of mask, and I imagine you would blend in enough to stay at the edges and maneuver your way out.

60102

If you really wanted to fit in, carry a skateboard along with that outfit and no one would give you a second glance.

The only thing with the skateboard is that even if you are a proficient skateboarder, there may be mixed junk or debris in the street that could cause you to wipe out and get hurt if you try to use the skateboard.

If you are not already a good skateboarder, I would just carry it as a prop. I would feel really stupid if I wound up falling and breaking something or getting hurt while trying to learn how to skateboard, when I was doing so for the purpose of not getting hurt in a riot.

Otherwise it would be perfect. You could skateboard out of a riot area while wearing an anarchy hoodie and a mask while carrying a PDW in a backpack.

I realize that I have gotten way off-topic. I will post pictures and information about my PDW's later tonight.

[entropy]

Yeah. Off topic. You’re not going to catch me wearing an Antifa sweatshirt or anything else similarly marked for that matter.

Being the gray man and being an idiot are two different things.

Sorry if that comes off harsh.

[Xhado]

Yeah. Off topic. You’re not going to catch me wearing an Antifa sweatshirt or anything else similarly marked for that matter.

Being the gray man and being an idiot are two different things.

Sorry if that comes off harsh.

In downtown Portland at night, the "Grey Man" is Antifa.

[Ed L]

Yeah. Off topic. You’re not going to catch me wearing an Antifa sweatshirt or anything else similarly marked for that matter.

Being the gray man and being an idiot are two different things.

Sorry if that comes off harsh.

Not a problem. Some of my post was a bit tongue in cheek--like the skateboard.

[Hambo]

Yeah. Off topic. You’re not going to catch me wearing an Antifa sweatshirt or anything else similarly marked for that matter.

Being the gray man and being an idiot are two different things.

Sorry if that comes off harsh.

Like they say about handcuffs: it comes off as easy as it goes on.

[Ed L]

Here are some pictures of guns that I own that fall into the PDW category. First, an SBR'ed HK94 and an AK SBR underfolder. Both were owned long before the riots or the Covid situation.

60125

The HK is an HK94 that was SBR'ed and worked on by S&H gunsmithing in Oklahoma. S&H Gunsmithing is very well known for their work on HKs as well as a variety of other guns-especially NFA firearms. The barrel was shortened to MP-5 length, a 3 lug adapter was fashioned, and a paddle magazine release was added so the gun is like a semiauto MP5. And of course there is a surefire light.

The AK SBR Underfolder was something I stumbled upon in my local gun store in 2014. It is 7.62x39, has an 8.75" barrel, and was manufactured by Vector, as indicated by the receiver. I really don't have a lot of information on Vector AK SBR underfolders. But the gun shoots smoothly with no issues. Of course it is blasty with the short barrel and muzzle brake/booster and can have a varying amount of muzzle flash--sometimes it is pretty big. It varies between shots from the same box of ammo. I have heard different explanations for this phenomenon. I remember reading that unburnt powder can accumulate in the muzzle device from shot to shot, and then spark. The sights aren't great--even by AK standards. The rear sight consists of L-type flip sight with a V-notch on each leg of the L. Both V notches are very narrow, which makes it hard to get any type of good sight picture with the front sight.

Next is the HK SP5K.

60126

I purchased it this past spring. Since it had an optic rail, I bought it with the intention of mounting one. I chose the Aimpoint T-1. I wanted to go with a 4 M.O.A. dot, and a friend had a used T-1 available. While I really like having the Aimpoint on it, the rail attaches in a way where you can easily gouge your hand if you are not careful when pulling back the charging handle. Below is a picture comparing it in size to the SBR'ed HK94:

60128

[archangel]

That assumes that you are in a situation where you can openly carry a rifle. This discussion is predicated on the fact that it is often unacceptable to open carry a rifle in public. In that circumstance, a PDW that can be concealed is needed.

For me, the decision to use a PCC vs rifle is largely determined by what size barrel I can conceal. Rifles have generally been my go to when the circumstances allow me to use a backpack that will accommodate 9” of barrel. Otherwise, I use an MP5K with folding stock when carrying a handbag.

Historically, I’ve had little use in rifle calibers launched from sub-10” barrels. This is especially true when it comes to 5.56 which often becomes a glorified and unreliable .22cal hole punch when fired from 6-7” barrels (barely 2000 fps for 64 grain pushed by 556 powder); I’d rather have a well performing 9mm JHP. The 300blk has me rethinking this a little. A 110 grain bullet pushed to 2100 fps from a 9” 300blk barrel has a much better temp cavity than a 64 grain 556 pushed at similar speeds. The ultra short Sig Rattler is still probably pretty reasonable for very close range work as the 110 Barnes black tip likely has significant temp cavitation at 1700-1800 fps. However, I have serious reservations about the terminal performance of even the 110 Barnes when velocities get below 1600-1700 fps. I know it may still expand, but I’m not sure that its terminal performance beats a good 9mm JHP at those lower velocities when temp cavity starts to degrade.

Barnes says TTSX will expand down to 1350 fps. "How much will expand at that velocity" is a valid question, but the other thing to consider is trajectory. Even out of a little 5.5 or 6" bbl, by the time TTSX has slowed to <1600 fps, you're at a range where a 9mm would be ~900 fps or less, with 20+ inches of drop (vs 3-4" of drop with the 300blk).

[Casual Friday]

Here are some pictures of guns that I own that fall into the PDW category. First, an SBR'ed HK94 and an AK SBR underfolder. Both were owned long before the riots or the Covid situation.

60125

The HK is an HK94 that was SBR'ed and worked on by S&H gunsmithing in Oklahoma. S&H Gunsmithing is very well known for their work on HKs as well as a variety of other guns-especially NFA firearms. The barrel was shortened to MP-5 length, a 3 lug adapter was fashioned, and a paddle magazine release was added so the gun is like a semiauto MP5. And of course there is a surefire light.

The AK SBR Underfolder was something I stumbled upon in my local gun store in 2014. It is 7.62x39, has an 8.75" barrel, and was manufactured by Vector, as indicated by the receiver. I really don't have a lot of information on Vector AK SBR underfolders. But the gun shoots smoothly with no issues. Of course it is blasty with the short barrel and muzzle brake/booster and can have a varying amount of muzzle flash--sometimes it is pretty big. It varies between shots from the same box of ammo. I have heard different explanations for this phenomenon. I remember reading that unburnt powder can accumulate in the muzzle device from shot to shot, and then spark. The sights aren't great--even by AK standards. The rear sight consists of L-type flip sight with a V-notch on each leg of the L. Both V notches are very narrow, which makes it hard to get any type of good sight picture with the front sight.

Next is the HK SP5K.

60126

I purchased it this past spring. Since it had an optic rail, I bought it with the intention of mounting one. I chose the Aimpoint T-1. I wanted to go with a 4 M.O.A. dot, and a friend had a used T-1 available. While I really like having the Aimpoint on it, the rail attaches in a way where you can easily gouge your hand if you are not careful when pulling back the charging handle. Below is a picture comparing it in size to the SBR'ed HK94:

60128

Dang man you didn't have to flex on us that hard. Very nice collection.

[JRB]

Here are some pictures of guns that I own that fall into the PDW category.....
....The AK SBR Underfolder was something I stumbled upon in my local gun store in 2014. It is 7.62x39, has an 8.75" barrel, and was manufactured by Vector, as indicated by the receiver. I really don't have a lot of information on Vector AK SBR underfolders....

That's a pretty nice score! Vector built those from unissued-condition Zastava M92 'Krink' parts kits that included the original CHF barrels. Because Vector built the receivers, they didn't have the receiver heat treat issues of the Zastava-made M92 pistols that were imported en masse by Century Arms, nor did they have any of the derp-derp import compliant receiver markings and such.

The only downside to the Vector M92's was most of them were 'parts bin' builds so the serially numbered parts didn't all match. But everything except the receiver and FCG are 100% Zastava military contract parts. Interestingly, until very recently all of the Zastava made CHF barrels in 7.62x39 were not chrome lined. This is largely attributed to the pure-copper-jacket, brass cased FMJ Yugo M67 ball ammo that was the standard issue ammo for the M70 and other x39 AK's they made like the M92. The downside is that the M67 ammo used corrosive primers, which is why most demilled Yugo AK parts kits and lots of Yugo SKS's have sewer-pipe barrels.

Since your AK was built from an unissued and unfired M92 kit, none of the barrel corrosion issues will be present.

Really, that's a pretty damn nice AK.

Which is just as well since you had it lined up next to an S&H built HK94 SBR and an SP5, which need no introduction. :)

[Ed L]

Dang man you didn't have to flex on us that hard. Very nice collection.

Thanks. I just realized that the HK94 SBR and Vector AK SBR might actually be a bit big for this thread's interpretation of PDW. So I could have posted the pictures of the HK SP5K and left it at that.



That's a pretty nice score! Vector built those from unissued-condition Zastava M92 'Krink' parts kits that included the original CHF barrels. Because Vector built the receivers, they didn't have the receiver heat treat issues of the Zastava-made M92 pistols that were imported en masse by Century Arms, nor did they have any of the derp-derp import compliant receiver markings and such.

The only downside to the Vector M92's was most of them were 'parts bin' builds so the serially numbered parts didn't all match. But everything except the receiver and FCG are 100% Zastava military contract parts. Interestingly, until very recently all of the Zastava made CHF barrels in 7.62x39 were not chrome lined. This is largely attributed to the pure-copper-jacket, brass cased FMJ Yugo M67 ball ammo that was the standard issue ammo for the M70 and other x39 AK's they made like the M92. The downside is that the M67 ammo used corrosive primers, which is why most demilled Yugo AK parts kits and lots of Yugo SKS's have sewer-pipe barrels.

Since your AK was built from an unissued and unfired M92 kit, none of the barrel corrosion issues will be present.

Really, that's a pretty damn nice AK.

Which is just as well since you had it lined up next to an S&H built HK94 SBR and an SP5, which need no introduction. :)

Wow. Thanks for that info. That is much better information than I had on the gun.

[Casual Friday]

Thanks. I just realized that the HK94 SBR and Vector AK SBR might actually be a bit big for this thread's interpretation of PDW. So I could have posted the pictures of the HK SP5K and left it at that.

Nah they're just fine. We don't really have an agreed upon definition of what a PDW is.

My personal criteria is that it needs to be concealable in a reasonably sized backpack/bag that can be transported and carried inconspicuously. Mostly it comes down to a persons individual needs and preferences. I personally wouldn't use a shotgun in that role but it seems there are some that do.

Mine is my Colt 11.5" 6933 upper on an Aero lower with a Law folder and brace.

[Caballoflaco]

Nah they're just fine. We don't really have an agreed upon definition of what a PDW is.

My personal criteria is that it needs to be concealable in a reasonably sized backpack/bag that can be transported and carried inconspicuously. Mostly it comes down to a persons individual needs and preferences. I personally wouldn't use a shotgun in that role but it seems there are some that do.

Mine is my Colt 11.5" 6933 upper on an Aero lower with a Law folder and brace.

The original PDW that was widely issued by any country was aks74u in 5.45. I think a variant in 7.62x39 fully qualifies as a pdw.

[Casual Friday]

The original PDW that was widely issued by any country was aks74u in 5.45. I think a variant in 7.62x39 fully qualifies as a pdw.

Yes.

[JRB]

The original PDW that was widely issued by any country was aks74u in 5.45. I think a variant in 7.62x39 fully qualifies as a pdw.

It'd be more accurate to call the M92 a short PDW variant of the Yugoslavian M70AB1, which itself was a Yugoslavian variant of an AKMS and has some substantial differences from a Russian AK.
The AK74 and all of its variants were from a different 'branch' of Russian development in the 70's and 80's.

Interestingly, the Iraqi's set up domestic AK production using Zastava-sourced machinery and blueprints, so Iraqi AK's are basically clones of Yugo AK's, and the Iraqis domestically produced their version of an M92.

I find all of the myriad of AK variants to be pretty interesting, and for awhile I was trying to collect them. Then it got too stupid expensive.

[Rex G]

Nah they're just fine. We don't really have an agreed upon definition of what a PDW is.

My personal criteria is that it needs to be concealable in a reasonably sized backpack/bag that can be transported and carried inconspicuously. Mostly it comes down to a person’s individual needs and preferences. I personally wouldn't use a shotgun in that role but it seems there are some that do.

Mine is my Colt 11.5" 6933 upper on an Aero lower with a Law folder and brace.

I reckon that “PDW” is somewhat fluid, or situational. Those who want a legal handgun, in order to carry under the provisions of a badge, license, permit, or the LEOSA, will want something different than someone who has no legal capability to carry a handgun, and so wants the shortest legal long gun. An example of the latter is my young adult self, in early-Eighties Texas, when private citizens could not generally carry handguns, a time and place where the general solution was a stock-less shotgun, but Uzi Carbines had a following. I opted for the collapsible/folding-stock Uzi, and yes, do indeed wish I would have kept it.

Actually, there are still niches where a long gun is a better legal fit, than a handgun, and vice versa. My LAW-foldered 10.3” AR pistol, a DDM4 V7P, and my Remington TAC-14, at just over 26”, and therefore a long gun, both* have their applications.

*Well, if I can ever accumulate enough 300 AAC/BLK, to truly vet the AR pistol, it will have its niche. I have stopped trying, for now, to instead concentrate on accumulating other rifle cartridges, and may temporarily swap one of my 16” 5.56 uppers onto the DDM4 lower.

[Casual Friday]

I reckon that “PDW” is somewhat fluid, or situational. ~snip~

Yeah that's what I said.

[jh9]

-like if your car broke down or you got trapped in riot area, try getting a a hoodie with the anarchy symbol on it

60102

If you really wanted to fit in, carry a skateboard along with that outfit and no one would give you a second glance.



I know it's tongue in cheek but it reminded me of this:

https://media.giphy.com/media/ifxLK48cnyDDi/giphy.gif


e 110 Barnes black tip likely has significant temp cavitation at 1700-1800 fps.

Maybe it's been covered but I thought you didn't really get RIFLE ballistics (i.e. temp caviatation now matters) until you were over 2000 fps. Is that not the case?

[Rex G]

Yeah that's what I said.

Yes, I was agreeing with you. :)

I guess I prattled-on so much, however, it may have seemed otherwise. Sorry.

[NothingBurger]

Christensen Arms CA9MM - 7.5” barrel

https://i.imgur.com/SD7MUrP.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ka99jjC.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ZcBwu0Z.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/kUuzDfs.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/XUMzFFA.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/FCi8vMt.jpg

I recently had a couple of pistols I no longer wanted and some cash burning a hole in my pocket, so I was on the hunt locally for my first PDW style weapon. I made the local rounds to stores in the area every week for a few weeks. Ran across this Christensen Arms AR-9 and fell in love with the quality of it. Had to purchase!

This is mainly for home defense and range fun. I have several traditional 9mm pistols for conceal carry and an AR-15 for SHTF. Went through 200 rounds the day after I got it (earlier this week) and couldn’t be happier!

Immediate changes will be a riser for the Vortex Venom. Next maybe some BUIS and maybe a small flashlight.

I think these were just released in August and there’s not much info out there on them. Just wanted to share my excitement!

[JRB]

Christensen Arms CA9MM - 7.5” barrel...

...I think these were just released in August and there’s not much info out there on them. Just wanted to share my excitement!

Neat gat - I like the grey color.

Strange that they'd mill off the forward assist provision and fill it in. I'd think it would be more inexpensive to just source slick-side AR uppers.
But if that model is new for August of this year, that might just be a 'this is what we had available' sort of accommodation, and it'll just be a curiosity in the future, like the old Chinese MAK-90's that came in with thumbhole stocks but rear trunnions set up for an underfolding stock.

[NothingBurger]

Neat gat - I like the grey color.

Strange that they'd mill off the forward assist provision and fill it in. I'd think it would be more inexpensive to just source slick-side AR uppers.
But if that model is new for August of this year, that might just be a 'this is what we had available' sort of accommodation, and it'll just be a curiosity in the future, like the old Chinese MAK-90's that came in with thumbhole stocks but rear trunnions set up for an underfolding stock.

Thanks! I’m not real sure why the forward assist location is made like that. I’m glad it doesn’t have a fake one for looks, though.

Here are the specs for anyone that’s interested (carbon fiber wrapped barrel, etc...)

https://christensenarms.com/ca9mmpistol/

[Richison]

Split off from a comment I made in the Long Gun photo thread HERE. (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?118-Long-Guns-Photo-Gallery&p=1018064&viewfull=1#post1018064)

I've never really considered having a "truck gun", or put much thought into having a rifle "along for the ride" outside of the house. The thought has crossed my mind to take a long gun when we go venturing by vehicle into the remote(ish) areas of our local national forest, but I've not cared for the thought of throwing a 16" AR in the back of the 4Runner for whatever reason.

That being said, the current climate inspired a spontaneous purchase of a DDM4 PDW for just that reason. It's likely totally unnecessary, but since buying it, I've actually taken to the overall concept of a PDW. It's definitely a different tool in the tool box.

Anyway, any other PDW or similar users? General discussion of the concept welcome.

The camera on my iPhone took a dump after five years, so I'm at the mercy of friends and their camera phones. This is all I have at the moment.

DDM4 PDW
Aimpoint T2 in Larue LT751
Q Cherry Bomb muzzle device
SiCo Omega + Q Plan B

Still working out what I want to do about a light, as I'll likely just start using this for HD due to compact size.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49706604512_3fcbcb367a_c.jpg

I have the same DDM4 PDW and Q Cherry Bomb muzzle device as I recently picked up the Q Trash Panda. One question:

The gunsmith at the dealer I bought it from said it needs an adapter to mount the Cherry Bomb to the barrel since it’s tapered. In looking at the installation instructions, it doesn’t appear that he is correct. Can you please confirm that you didn’t need and adapter to install?

TIA

[StraitR]

I have the same DDM4 PDW and Q Cherry Bomb muzzle device as I recently picked up the Q Trash Panda. One question:

The gunsmith at the dealer I bought it from said it needs an adapter to mount the Cherry Bomb to the barrel since it’s tapered. In looking at the installation instructions, it doesn’t appear that he is correct. Can you please confirm that you didn’t need and adapter to install?

TIA

Q recommends a minimum .735 barrel diameter for 90 degree barrel shoulder installation of the 5/8-24 Cherry Bomb. The DD barrel is .700 (by my measurement), so technically the gunsmith is correct. I went for it anyway. Installed fine for me, no ill affects. It goes without saying that this was my choice, and in no way am I suggesting you forgo the installation recommendations or instructions per Q.

A link to the Q barrel shoulder recommendations, on their website....

https://www.liveqordie.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/2339-A-CHERRY-BOMB-SHOULDER-ASSY.pdf

[Richison]

Q recommends a minimum .735 barrel diameter for 90 degree barrel should installation of the 5/8-24 Cherry Bomb. The DD barrel is .700 (by my measurement), so technically the gunsmith is correct. I went for it anyway. Installed fine for me, no ill affects. It goes without saying that this was my choice, and in no way am I suggesting you forgo the installation recommendations or instructions per Q.

A link to the Q barrel shoulder recommendations, on their website....

https://www.liveqordie.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/2339-A-CHERRY-BOMB-SHOULDER-ASSY.pdf

That’s what I was afraid of. Thanks for the quick reply! I hate it when the gunsmith is right! :D

Hope this helps others as well since I was searching all over for an answer.

[jtcarm]

I’m currently building an AR pistol for a PDW/bag gun in .300 BO.

What’s the hives’s collective opinion as to a maximum barrel length?

No suppressor, probably just an A2 flash hider.

[EricP]

I have a 9” BCM with a Law folder, it just fits in my ~27 liter pack/lap top bag without looking like it’s being stretched. This is an average North Face pack as opposed to a more purpose built one like a Vertx, etc.

[OlongJohnson]

I’m currently building an AR pistol for a PDW/bag gun in .300 BO.

What’s the hives’s collective opinion as to a maximum barrel length?

No suppressor, probably just an A2 flash hider.

Maximum will depend on the bag you intend to carry it in.

In my case, the decision was made by the handguard and MD. I went with an MCMR 7-inch. Originally ordered a 7.5-inch barrel, but when I mocked up the parts to check clearances, the MD had sufficient conflict with the handguard that it couldn't be resolved with acceptable elegance by trimming the handguard. Bought an 8-inch barrel, and all is good. (PM me if you decide you want a deal on a 7.5-inch barrel...)

Some people are using the cup type devices rather than anything described in writing by its manufacturer as having anything at all to do with flash. These are often a little bigger than a flash hider. Worth considering in your planning.

[SLUZENE]

Really wish DD was just selling the bare DDM4 PDW upper only, unless i'm missing something proprietary that the complete gun has. Same with the honey badger barrel and rail. Why isn't a readily available upper for sale?

https://www.liveqordie.com/products/honey-badger-barrel-assembly/
https://www.liveqordie.com/products/honey-badger-handguard/

I see little reason to buy a complete Q Sugar weasel when I have an available high quality stripped lower, colt LPK, etc.

When this CV19 stuff is over and I can actually get 300blk, I'll probably buy a Honey Badger barrel, rail, etc and send it off to a builder. It will get slapped on a standard lower with a LAW folder (both of which I already have).

If in hotel mode it will get the Omega 300 attached.

Anyone experimented with the 7.5" PWS 7.62x39? I don't care about subsonic for a PDW -- at this time...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o0AmIhmDko

[Grey]

Really wish DD was just selling the bare DDM4 PDW upper only, unless i'm missing something proprietary that the complete gun has. Same with the honey badger barrel and rail. Why isn't a readily available upper for sale?

https://www.liveqordie.com/products/honey-badger-barrel-assembly/
https://www.liveqordie.com/products/honey-badger-handguard/

I see little reason to buy a complete Q Sugar weasel when I have an available high quality stripped lower, colt LPK, etc.

When this CV19 stuff is over and I can actually get 300blk, I'll probably buy a Honey Badger barrel, rail, etc and send it off to a builder. It will get slapped on a standard lower with a LAW folder (both of which I already have).

If in hotel mode it will get the Omega 300 attached.

Anyone experimented with the 7.5" PWS 7.62x39? I don't care about subsonic for a PDW -- at this time...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4o0AmIhmDko

I have one, havent shot it in forever.

[Xhado]

s. Same with the honey badger barrel and rail. Why isn't a readily available upper for sale?



Q plans to sell complete uppers eventually.

Currently they're backordered over a year for both the HB and SW. Every available upper receiver is going on a complete rifle/pistol.

[SLUZENE]

I have one, havent shot it in forever.

As in the PWS 7.62x39?
Why not?

[Grey]

As in the PWS 7.62x39?
Why not?Yes, I have a PWS, I dont seem to shoot all that much, plus I got a lot of weird looks at the range because its loud as hell.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[SLUZENE]

Yes, I have a PWS, I dont seem to shoot all that much, plus I got a lot of weird looks at the range because its loud as hell.

With a LAW folder, do you think it's a viable option as a PDW/bag gun? I figure one would want a 20rd mag for such, but I have zero research time on the reliability or existence of such a magazine.

[Grey]

With a LAW folder, do you think it's a viable option as a PDW/bag gun? I figure one would want a 20rd mag for such, but I have zero research time on the reliability or existence of such a magazine.

How large of a bag do you have? I have a lower with a law folder I can stick it on and measure it for you.

[SLUZENE]

How large of a bag do you have? I have a lower with a law folder I can stick it on and measure it for you.

Very kind of you! No certain bag at the moment, just brainstorming. GJM says an 8" 300blk LAW folder will fit so I'm tickled by the idea of a 7.5" 7.62x39 LAW folder since the ammo is about the opposite of availability and price right now compared to 300blk.

[JRB]

Very kind of you! No certain bag at the moment, just brainstorming. GJM says an 8" 300blk LAW folder will fit so I'm tickled by the idea of a 7.5" 7.62x39 LAW folder since the ammo is about the opposite of availability and price right now compared to 300blk.

(Puts on AK geek hat)

I love the 7.62x39 as a jack-of-all-trades round, but be careful about ammo selection for a 7.5in x39 gun that you may use defensively. Lots of flavors of x39 ammo will have consistent or intermittent watermelon-sized fireballs out of a barrel that length regardless of the muzzle device used. It is also valuable to chrono your chosen loads because in sub 10in barrels some x39 ammo loses a lot of velocity, while others only lose a little bit. Tula in particular is very dirty and loves to throw huge fireballs.

I'd try the Hornady SST black and Federal offerings and pick one that works best in your gun as the 'working' load.

[Grey]

Very kind of you! No certain bag at the moment, just brainstorming. GJM says an 8" 300blk LAW folder will fit so I'm tickled by the idea of a 7.5" 7.62x39 LAW folder since the ammo is about the opposite of availability and price right now compared to 300blk.I'll get some measurements later tonight.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[Grey]

I'll get some measurements later tonight.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

18.5 folded.

25.25 unfolded with brace in shortest position (SB3).

This is with the stock 3 prong flash hider.

[Casual Friday]

Anecdotally, not particularly awesome ammo through a 7.75" AK pistol seems to be pretty effective.

60876

I'd forgotten that was a mini Draco that was used.

How is the Mrs. doing these days?

[Parf]

(Puts on AK geek hat)

I love the 7.62x39 as a jack-of-all-trades round, but be careful about ammo selection for a 7.5in x39 gun that you may use defensively. Lots of flavors of x39 ammo will have consistent or intermittent watermelon-sized fireballs out of a barrel that length regardless of the muzzle device used. It is also valuable to chrono your chosen loads because in sub 10in barrels some x39 ammo loses a lot of velocity, while others only lose a little bit. Tula in particular is very dirty and loves to throw huge fireballs.

I'd try the Hornady SST black and Federal offerings and pick one that works best in your gun as the 'working' load.

I'm still a big fan of the Liberty Cans "Phoenix" flash hider, Gomez turned me on to. Fireballs are greatly reduced.

[JRB]

Anecdotally, not particularly awesome ammo through a 7.75" AK pistol seems to be pretty effective.

60876

Shot placement :(

I sincerely hope your Mrs. is doing better!

[5pins]

I needed a Griffin taper muzzle comp for my 10.5 inch LMT upper so I can put a can on it after ATF gives me permission. I went with linear comp with the idea that blast would be directed forward and hopefully be effective if shot without the can on. I can't say it's quieter with it on but it sure throws a much bigger flame.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgDYMzVZ42U

[Jaywalker]

I'm working my way through the thread and just finished post #1130. I have a couple of questions that it doesn't appear will be answered as I go through it and would appreciate some guidance.

The main question is what's wrong with using the subsonic rounds in a defense mode? Isn't that (anti-personnel) mode the way the military is using it?

The numbers show the subsonic rounds slightly better than a .45 caliber Personal Defense Weapon (PDW), for maybe some increase in size over a Pistol-Caliber Carbine (PCC) and maybe some increased blast, concussion, noise. If that trade-off is acceptable, it appears to me the ability to add in supersonic rounds, even with some slight re-configuration like a different buffer, would make the 300 BLK a no-brainer over a PCC.

I notice that some experienced people are not doing it this way, so there must be something I'm overlooking. School me, please.

[Jager]

The overarching benefit of a PDW or PCC over a conventional handgun is a marked improvement in ability to consistently hit the intended target. Expert skill with a handgun requires significant commitment to achieve, is perishable, deteriorates rapidly under stress, and, thus, is vanishingly rare when things go sideways, even among the community of serious shooters. A PDW/PCC brings considerable help to those difficult challenges.

The overarching benefit of a PDW over a PCC is that it brings a rifle cartridge to the party. Terminal effects of a rifle round over a pistol round are profound.

Alas, that rifle round, triggered in an enclosed space, brings a significant increase in blast and concussion. Triggering a supersonic round from a PDW in one's bedroom is likely a permanent trade of some of your hearing for stopping whatever it is that needs being stopped.

It was in recognition of all those competing demands that gave birth to the .300 Blackout. A subsonic loading of that cartridge, preferably with a suppressor, retains much of the terminal effectiveness of a rifle round, without destroying your hearing.

Yes, many of us think it very much has a place.

[Welder]

A subsonic loading of that cartridge, preferably with a suppressor, retains much of the terminal effectiveness of a rifle round, without destroying your hearing.

OK I'm not trying to start a fight, I have 300 BLK rifles and I'm a fan, but it's not my impression that much of the terminal effectiveness of a rifle round is retained in a subsonic 300 BLK load. Are you saying that a load making just over 1000 fps is producing permanent stretch cavities like a true rifle round running, say, 2500 fps? My impression of the subsonic BLK is that its' wounding capability is similar to a handgun, but with better SD and therefore better trajectory and longer effective range.

I'm ready to be schooled if I'm wrong.

[757_Magnum]

The main question is what's wrong with using the subsonic rounds in a defense mode? Isn't that (anti-personnel) mode the way the military is using it?

The biggest drawback of 300 BLK subsonics is the lack of projectiles that will reliably open up at those velocities. Off the top of my head, the only two choices are the Lehigh offerings and the Hornady 190 gr Sub-X. The former seems to be proven in hunting circles, but is too expensive for most of us to be able to practice with any regularity. I had great hopes when the latter was announced, but from what I've read it doesn't open up reliably enough to trust for home defense. The 220 gr loads that you (used to) commonly see on shelves are great for plinking, but they won't open up since they were designed for .308 velocities. I've read that they're known to drill right through a railroad tie without much deformation. A 9mm or 45 would probably do much better.

From what I have heard of military use, it's only issued to Special Operations and only used in niche cases. I was lucky enough to buy a few thousand once-fired 300 BLK casings at the beginning of the 'Rona panic. The seller said that they came from the test range at the NSWC Crane facility in Indiana. Ninety percent of the casings were Remington and very very sooty, so I'm guessing they were the subsonic load with the 220 gr match bullet. My wild ass guess is if that's what the SEALs are using, they're for nighttime raids where they're trying to take out a building or compound without alerting the entire neighborhood, but you're talking about a team of elite soldiers with dual-tube NVGs, IR lasers, and the numbers to cover each other. Multiple headshots are probably the order of the day, and they most likely have supersonic loads handy if things go south.

The general consensus seems to be suppressed pistol calibers if you prioritize your hearing, and 5.56 and supersonic 300 BLK if you prioritize terminal performance. Personally, I picked up a Ruger 77/44 so I can play with heavy 300 gr subsonics.

[Jager]

OK I'm not trying to start a fight, I have 300 BLK rifles and I'm a fan, but it's not my impression that much of the terminal effectiveness of a rifle round is retained in a subsonic 300 BLK load. Are you saying that a load making just over 1000 fps is producing permanent stretch cavities like a true rifle round running, say, 2500 fps? My impression of the subsonic BLK is that its' wounding capability is similar to a handgun, but with better SD and therefore better trajectory and longer effective range.

I'm ready to be schooled if I'm wrong.

No, you're not wrong. I overstated the case for subsonic 300 Blackout a bit.

What I will say is that subsonic loads from a 300BLK PDW give you the upper end of conventional handgun performance out of a platform with much higher capacity and much higher hit probability. I'd much rather have one of those than the Glock 21 that rests on my nite stand.

But, yeah, to get true rifle round terminal performance you'd need to go supersonic.

[TC215]

From what I have heard of military use, it's only issued to Special Operations and only used in niche cases. I was lucky enough to buy a few thousand once-fired 300 BLK casings at the beginning of the 'Rona panic. The seller said that they came from the test range at the NSWC Crane facility in Indiana. Ninety percent of the casings were Remington and very very sooty, so I'm guessing they were the subsonic load with the 220 gr match bullet. My wild ass guess is if that's what the SEALs are using, they're for nighttime raids where they're trying to take out a building or compound without alerting the entire neighborhood, but you're talking about a team of elite soldiers with dual-tube NVGs, IR lasers, and the numbers to cover each other. Multiple headshots are probably the order of the day, and they most likely have supersonic loads handy if things go south.

The general consensus seems to be suppressed pistol calibers if you prioritize your hearing, and 5.56 and supersonic 300 BLK if you prioritize terminal performance. Personally, I picked up a Ruger 77/44 so I can play with heavy 300 gr subsonics.

A post from another thread by a forum member that has operational experience with 300 BLK:


As some of you may know, I don’t give a fuck what gelatin test results look like. I care what meat and bone testing results look like. They are different often enough that the former holds very little sway over my ammunition selection decisions.

I’ve only used 110 TTSX and 220 OTM subs for social work, and if given the choice, I’ll take the subs all day.

The 110’s do a lot of damage to be sure. But they don’t suppress well, for what (I hope) are obvious reasons. The subs often don’t look terribly impressive on paper or in gel but the results they produce when popping skulls open is undeniable, and they are substantially quieter than their supersonic half-weight counterparts.

Since most infantry engagements are inside 200 yards, and most civilian engagements are substantially closer than that, the terminal differences between subs and supers are negligible. As for “outperforms” claims, according to who and in what capacity? When it comes to shooting assholes, If you can shoot, whatever you are shooting will outperform the ammunition being used by people who can’t shoot.

[757_Magnum]

I don't know if that reply was in support of my post or not. I do remember that member's post, and I can't argue with his results, especially 220 gr subs to the head. There's still the issue of overpenetration that we have to deal with as civilians. I also agree that gel tests don't tell the whole story. However, I've also read numerous posts on other forums where subs acted like an arrow on deer and hogs, letting them run for a distance or even getting away, but supers were observed to deliver DRT performance better than 5.56 hunting loads. I'll also add that the esteemed DocGKR discourages the use of 300 BLK subs for home defense, and I'm comfortable taking his advice.

[SouthNarc]

I had David Stark the owner of Discrete Ballistics in class recently and I have to say I’m pretty impressed with his 188 gr solid copper Selous round.

https://youtu.be/c4KtcBeoBuU

[SouthNarc]

This is what they look like in hand after gel.

[Rick R]

A post from another thread by a forum member that has operational experience with 300 BLK:

I believe (and your quoted RKI seems to support it) that the military guys are using .300Blk guns as short range sniper rifles and go for headshots. Heavy BTHP bullets work just fine for that, with supers as a secondary ability if the gun needs to be used as a longer range carbine. Development of subsonic expanding ammo is an add on thing not part of the original intent for the cartridge.

I have noticed that in hunting situations the .300Blk rings my ears less with unsuppressed supers than 5.56mm does, but that’s in a deer blind and not a bedroom or hallway. My 5.56 house gun sits staged with a set of electronic ear pro hanging off its magazine in case of need.

[HCM]

I believe (and your quoted RKI seems to support it) that the military guys are using .300Blk guns as short range sniper rifles and go for headshots. Heavy BTHP bullets work just fine for that, with supers as a secondary ability if the gun needs to be used as a longer range carbine. Development of subsonic expanding ammo is an add on thing not part of the original intent for the cartridge.


The people in question are proficient enough to simply take headshots at close ranges such as inside structures. No “sniper rifle” application involved. In addition to the obvious terminal effects, are practical reasons to take headshots such as body armor, suicide vests etc.

It’s .300 whisper wildcat round origins aside, the original practical application of 300 BO was as a replacement for and improvement on the performance of suppressed 9mm sub machine guns firing sub sonic 9mm ammunition. 300 BO does this very well, essentially doubling the terminal ballistics and terminal performance. The ability to switch between suppressed SMG performance and real rifle performance by switching magazines is a bonus. Beyond that people are way overthinking this.

[Rex G]

I had David Stark the owner of Discrete Ballistics in class recently and I have to say I’m pretty impressed with his 188 gr solid copper Selous round.

https://youtu.be/c4KtcBeoBuU

Good to know. Thanks! It is interesting to see that one specifies a barrel length, when placing an order. It seems that they tailor the load to either pistol or 16” barrels.

I may order a batch in December or January. (November is a month for my budget to take a breather.)

[Rick R]

The people in question are proficient enough to simply take headshots at close ranges such as inside structures. No “sniper rifle” application involved. In addition to the obvious terminal effects, are practical reasons to take headshots such as body armor, suicide vests

I’d say that putting a match bullet from an suppressed rifle thru an unaware opponent’s eggnog using night vision optics for precision is a LOT like short range sniping. But you can describe it how ever you like. The original reason for suppressed Whisper, then Blackout was sentry elimination.

[HCM]

I’d say that putting a match bullet from an suppressed rifle thru an unaware opponent’s eggnog using night vision optics for precision is a LOT like short range sniping. But you can describe it how ever you like. The original reason for suppressed Whisper, then Blackout was sentry elimination.

Shooting with a high degree of accuracy isn't sniping. It's just competence. Sentry elimination as you describe is only one (less common) reason for use of suppressed subsonic systems but you do you.

[HCM]

I’d say that putting a match bullet from an suppressed rifle thru an unaware opponent’s eggnog using night vision optics for precision is a LOT like short range sniping. But you can describe it how ever you like. The original reason for suppressed Whisper, then Blackout was sentry elimination.

Shooting with a high degree of accuracy isn't sniping. It's just competence. Sentry elimination as you describe is only one (less common) reason for use of suppressed subsonic systems. Think of it as a "souped up" SMG instead of a "rifle" and the applications make more sense.

[Rick R]

Shooting with a high degree of accuracy isn't sniping. It's just competence. Sentry elimination as you describe is only one (less common) reason for use of suppressed subsonic systems. Think of it as a "souped up" SMG instead of a "rifle" and the applications make more sense.

You’re stuck on my description as sniping and glossing over my point. Subsonic .300Blk wasn’t intended to be an expanding round in its original form and affordable technology to reliably do so hasn’t presented itself.

What was originally asked here was subs vs supers for HD, most home owners aren’t high speed low drag operators with night vision and shoothouse experience. Probably why Doc GKR doesn’t recommend subs for HD.

[HCM]

You’re stuck on my description as sniping and glossing over my point. Subsonic .300Blk wasn’t intended to be an expanding round in its original form and affordable technology to reliably do so hasn’t presented itself.

What was originally asked here was subs vs supers for HD, most home owners aren’t high speed low drag operators with night vision and shoothouse experience. Probably why Doc GKR doesn’t recommend subs for HD.

If somebody wanted to spend the money to develop a 30 CAL equivalent of bonded handgun bullets it’s feasible, But it won’t happen until someone with a big enough checkbook rights a requirement for it. But even then it’s still a big pistol round in a rifle format.I do agree though that sub sonic 300 blackout is a very specialized round which performs it’s intended purpose very well


DocGKR can speak for himself, However I recall he generally does not recommend pistol caliber(Or otherwise neutered )long guns and sub sonic 300 black is essentially a big pistol round.
Largely for the same reasons he favors bonded or equivalent pistol ammo for home defense, the potential need to shoot through intermediate barriers like furniture drywall etc.As I recall he stated a couple specific cases where those types of intermediate barriers were issues in civilian home defense situation.

[Jaywalker]

Does a LAW folder add-on work legally as a brace on a pistol, or does it imply "stock" and therefore it's attached to a rifle?

[Casual Friday]

Does a LAW folder add-on work legally as a brace on a pistol, or does it imply "stock" and therefore it's attached to a rifle?

There is nothing about a LAW folder that determines the firearm's classification.

[RevolverRob]

Right Rob’s “PDW” thoughts summarized:

Honestly?

The weapon I choose will be pistol caliber. I have more pistol ammo than anything else and I enjoy shooting pistol caliber “SMG” type weapons. It should fit in a backpack so I can walk in and out of my apartment without alerting my neighbors.

It will probably never see anything more serious than a backpack ride to the range, hotel room guard duty, or campsite guard duty.

-

I also am gonna level with you guys. I hate shooting most centerfire rifles. I hate the noise. HATE IT. If I can’t hang a suppressor off the end of the gun, I am highly unlikely to shoot a rifle caliber, unless the barrel length is 18”+. The previous 5.56 ARs I had are gone, the two AKs in 7.62 and 5.45 are gone, the .308 Ruger Scout is gone. All of them gone in less than a 1000 rounds. Only two centerfire rifles I have left; a 20” Marlin 336 and a 16” AR9. And this is the third AR9 I am on after trying multiple times to convince myself a rifle cartridge is better.

A rifle cartridge IS ballistically superior than a pistol cartridge, full stop. But for RevolverRob to shoot the thing? Pistol cartridges are always superior. Until I can hang cans off my guns, it will remain this way. And even when I can hang a silencer on the end, I LOVE shooting suppressed 9mms and .45s.

Ha. These were my thoughts in April of this year.

By November of this year; there's a snake under my bed...

6326863269

[Rex G]

Does a LAW folder add-on work legally as a brace on a pistol, or does it imply "stock" and therefore it's attached to a rifle?

If the BATFE is going to continue trying to use a 13.5” LOP to constitute a “stock,” keep in mind that a LAW folder adds more than an inch to the LOP. So, the LAW folder, in and of itself, does nothing to change any definitions, unless it adds enough length to extend the LOP into problematic territory. Let’s keep in mind that the one case, that everyone was celebrating, was thrown out because the BATFE measured the LOP incorrectly, along a diagonal, rather correctly parallel with the bore axis, to arrive at the 13.5” measurement. The court did not “rule” that there was anything wrong with the 13.5” LOP being used as a standard.

My Daniel Defense DDM4 V7P was equipped with a LAW folder, and, supposedly, an early-version SB Tactical Brace, as delivered by Daniel Defense. I will neither confirm nor deny what I found the LOP to be, but, somehow, the SB Tactical product disappeared from the RE. Maybe I only imagined that it existed.

[HeavyDuty]

If the BATFE is going to continue trying to use a 13.5” LOP to constitute a “stock,” keep in mind that a LAW folder adds more than an inch to the LOP. So, the LAW folder, in and of itself, does nothing to change any definitions, unless it adds enough length to extend the LOP into problematic territory. Let’s keep in mind that the one case, that everyone was celebrating, was thrown out because the BATFE measured the LOP incorrectly, along a diagonal, rather correctly parallel with the bore axis, to arrive at the 13.5” measurement. The court did not “rule” that there was anything wrong with the 13.5” LOP being used as a standard.

My Daniel Defense DDM4 V7P was equipped with a LAW folder, and, supposedly, an early-version SB Tactical Brace, as delivered by Daniel Defense. I will neither confirm nor deny what I found the LOP to be, but, somehow, the SB Tactical product disappeared from the RE. Maybe I only imagined that it existed.

My personal comfort level would be as close to 12” as possible... and no 13.5” regardless of the angle used to measure.

[Screwball]

If the BATFE is going to continue trying to use a 13.5” LOP to constitute a “stock,” keep in mind that a LAW folder adds more than an inch to the LOP. So, the LAW folder, in and of itself, does nothing to change any definitions, unless it adds enough length to extend the LOP into problematic territory. Let’s keep in mind that the one case, that everyone was celebrating, was thrown out because the BATFE measured the LOP incorrectly, along a diagonal, rather correctly parallel with the bore axis, to arrive at the 13.5” measurement. The court did not “rule” that there was anything wrong with the 13.5” LOP being used as a standard.

My Daniel Defense DDM4 V7P was equipped with a LAW folder, and, supposedly, an early-version SB Tactical Brace, as delivered by Daniel Defense. I will neither confirm nor deny what I found the LOP to be, but, somehow, the SB Tactical product disappeared from the RE. Maybe I only imagined that it existed.

Which is BS...

They made a huge thing about requiring folding braced firearms to be measured with the brace folded, which kept people from getting 26+” OAL... which would allow vertical grips to be installed on pistols.

But if you have a folder that adds 1+” to the “LOP,” you are being held to a made up requirement that may make the gun a rifle. That even dismisses the fact that LOP really is only a measurement for stocks, which the last time I checked... a brace is not.

Screw us one way, then flip the numbers around to screw you the other way.

Complete s***show.

[HCM]

Does a LAW folder add-on work legally as a brace on a pistol, or does it imply "stock" and therefore it's attached to a rifle?

The only potential issue is that the law folder increases the length of pull so if used with braces like the SB A3 or A4 you should probably use a limiter pin to prevent having a length of pull greater than 13.5 inches. SB tactical sells a limiter widget for about $8.

There is nothing hard fast or in writing about the 13.5 inch length of Pull. However ATF cited it in an attempted prosecution in Ohio (which they lost) And they have cited it in other evaluations of pistol braces such as the Honey badger.

[Casual Friday]

This is my preferred setup for a LAW equipped pistol that is well under the 13.5" LOP that may hurt the ATFs feelings. Gearhead Works Tailhook mod 1, LAW folder and a VLTOR A5 pistol receiver extension puts the LOP at about 12.25".
63280

[CleverNickname]

I like the PS90, I just don't like 5.7.x28. Someone needs to make a PS90-ish SBR in 300 BLK. A ~20" long SBR with a ~10" long barrel, ambi controls and a 30+ round magazine that doesn't protrude would be about ideal for a PDW, IMO. Is there any reason that idea wouldn't work? For example, will the "twist-the-round 90 degrees" PS90 magazine design only work with shorter cartridges? Assuming that's not a problem, the only other technical challenge I could see would be redesigning the PS90 blowback system to some sort of locked-breech system.

[olstyn]

I like the PS90, I just don't like 5.7.x28. Someone needs to make a PS90-ish SBR in 300 BLK. A ~20" long SBR with a ~10" long barrel, ambi controls and a 30+ round magazine that doesn't protrude would be about ideal for a PDW, IMO. Is there any reason that idea wouldn't work? For example, will the "twist-the-round 90 degrees" PS90 magazine design only work with shorter cartridges? Assuming that's not a problem, the only other technical challenge I could see would be redesigning the PS90 blowback system to some sort of locked-breech system.

This idea has conceptual merit, but I bet it's non-trivial to do; otherwise, why wouldn't FN have done it themselves?

[Norville]

Which is BS...

They made a huge thing about requiring folding braced firearms to be measured with the brace folded, which kept people from getting 26+” OAL... which would allow vertical grips to be installed on pistols.

But if you have a folder that adds 1+” to the “LOP,” you are being held to a made up requirement that may make the gun a rifle. That even dismisses the fact that LOP really is only a measurement for stocks, which the last time I checked... a brace is not.

Screw us one way, then flip the numbers around to screw you the other way.

Complete s***show.

I agree it is a mess, but can you direct me to further info regarding measuring the oal with the brace folded? What if it’s not braced, just a buffer tube (like we’ll probably be running soon)?

And I believe under the federal definition, over 26” is no longer a pistol hence the ability to install a vertical grip.

Thanks.

[Screwball]

I agree it is a mess, but can you direct me to further info regarding measuring the oal with the brace folded? What if it’s not braced, just a buffer tube (like we’ll probably be running soon)?

And I believe under the federal definition, over 26” is no longer a pistol hence the ability to install a vertical grip.

Thanks.

It was in an ATF letter... maybe June or July of 2019. Made my TAC-14 folding adapter illegal to mount on my firearm (which is going to be AOWed so I can install it and have OAL of 24”; not a stock, so I can go back to the firearm status, if desired).

Prior to that, firearms and pistols were measured with the brace unfolded, since that was how rifles were measured. But if you remove 8” to 10” of length... you move away that much more from a pistol being 26” OAL... which was likely the reason for the “change.”

If it is a folding tube, from how the letter was written, I’d say it would be measured folded. But definitely look it up and check for yourself.

In regards to the inference about all of us running just buffer tubes in the future... speak for yourself. I didn’t roll over for bump stocks, even if I viewed them as useless... and I’m not rolling over for braces. If they want to make them illegal without any due process, come and get them.

[Norville]

June 2019

https://blog.princelaw.com/2019/07/05/atf-rescinds-prior-methods-to-measure-a-firearms-overall-length-when-equipped-with-a-stabilizing-brace/

Somehow missed that one.

[BillSWPA]

June 2019

https://blog.princelaw.com/2019/07/05/atf-rescinds-prior-methods-to-measure-a-firearms-overall-length-when-equipped-with-a-stabilizing-brace/

Somehow missed that one.

This blog is an excellent resource.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Rex G]

This is my preferred setup for a LAW equipped pistol that is well under the 13.5" LOP that may hurt the ATFs feelings. Gearhead Works Tailhook mod 1, LAW folder and a VLTOR A5 pistol receiver extension puts the LOP at about 12.25".
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A Tailhook is what I recently acquired, to mount on my DDM4 V7P, to be LOP-“compliant.”

Edited to add: According to the link to the Prince Law Office blog, posted above, my DDM4 V7P seems legal, as the RE, with the LAW folder extended, does not produce an LOP greater than 13.5 inches, and the the SB Tactical brace should not be used as part of that measurement. Even so, I don’t want some LEO or field agent, with a tape measure, to conveniently forget that the measurement should not include the SB Tactical brace. So, I feel more comfortable with the Tailhook, which adds nothing to the LOP, and, as a bonus, is obviously made to hook around my forearm, to serve as an orthopedic brace.

[Casual Friday]

A Tailhook is what I recently acquired, to mount on my DDM4 V7P, to be LOP-“compliant.”

Edited to add: According to the link to the Prince Law Office blog, posted above, my DDM4 V7P seems legal, as the RE, with the LAW folder extended, does not produce an LOP greater than 13.5 inches, and the the SB Tactical brace should not be used as part of that measurement. Even so, I don’t want some LEO or field agent, with a tape measure, to conveniently forget that the measurement should not include the SB Tactical brace. So, I feel more comfortable with the Tailhook, which adds nothing to the LOP, and, as a bonus, is obviously made to hook around my forearm, to serve as an orthopedic brace.

Added bonus is the Tailhook mod 1 is the most sturdy and usable brace that I've tried. No rubber flaps to get floppy and flappy, no need to buy a special strap that may or may not constitute a modification of the brace. It's just rock solid right outta the box.

[HeavyDuty]

Added bonus is the Tailhook mod 1 is the most sturdy and usable brace that I've tried. No rubber flaps to get floppy and flappy, no need to buy a special strap that may or may not constitute a modification of the brace. It's just rock solid right outta the box.

Yep - and I even use it as a folded open brace, because unlike the rubber ones it actually works that way (and doing so provides bio evidence that it is used as designed.)

[Jaywalker]

A Tailhook is what I recently acquired, to mount on my DDM4 V7P, to be LOP-“compliant.”

Edited to add: According to the link to the Prince Law Office blog, posted above, my DDM4 V7P seems legal, as the RE, ...
What's "RE?"

Also, with regard to the overall length when folded/collapsed, is the LAW/Tailhook shorter than the factory brace? I like the idea of the DDM4, but I wonder if the LAW/Tailhook can save me any folded overall length as compared to the 20.75" collapsed factory brace.

[Rex G]

What's "RE?"

Also, with regard to the overall length when folded/collapsed, is the LAW/Tailhook shorter than the factory brace? I like the idea of the DDM4, but I wonder if the LAW/Tailhook can save me any folded overall length as compared to the 20.75" collapsed factory brace.

RE = Receiver Extension. Also, known as Buffer Tube.

If “factory brace” means the SB Tactical rubbery thing that may or may not have been on my DDM4 V7P, well, the SB Tactical product protrudes beyond the end of the RE. The Tailhook attaches anywhere along the RE, and is not designed to protrude beyond the end of the RE.

Edited to add: I know nothing about a “collapsed factory brace.” That may be something available on newer DD products. I bought my DDM4 V7P in 2018, equipped with a LAW folder by the assemblers at Daniel Defense. “Collapsing” my DDM4 V7P is done by folding the LAW device. Nothing telescopes to make anything longer or shorter.

[Rex G]

Also, with regard to the overall length when folded/collapsed, is the LAW/Tailhook shorter than the factory brace? I like the idea of the DDM4, but I wonder if the LAW/Tailhook can save me any folded overall length as compared to the 20.75" collapsed factory brace.

The Tailhook does not make anything longer or shorter. It has no effect on the LOP. The Tailhook hinges open, to enable using hooking it under the shooter’s forearm, the original design intent of the orthopedic bracing function.

[HCM]

RE = Receiver Extension. Also, known as Buffer Tube.

If “factory brace” means the SB Tactical rubbery thing that may or may not have been on my DDM4 V7P, well, the SB Tactical product prodtrudes beyond the end of the RE. The Tailhook attaches anywhere along the RE, and is not designed to protrude beyond the end of the RE.

Edited to add: I know nothing about a “collapsed factory brace.” That may be something available on newer DD products. I bought my DDM4 V7P in 2018, equipped with a LAW folder by the assemblers at Daniel Defense. “Collapsing” my DDM4 V7P is done by folding the LAW device. Nothing telescopes to make anything longer or shorter.

There are different SB braces. The one which comes on DD factory guns with LAW folders is a fixed LOP brace so there are no issues. DD only uses the adjustable LOP braces (A3/A4) on standard pistols (no folder) so again no LOP issues as it comes from the factory.

Also don't confuse methods for measurement of OAL, which ATF has clearly defined in writing with methods for measurement of LOP which are not clearly defined.

[Jaywalker]

If “factory brace” means the SB Tactical rubbery thing that may or may not have been on my DDM4 V7P, well, the SB Tactical product protrudes beyond the end of the RE. The Tailhook attaches anywhere along the RE, and is not designed to protrude beyond the end of the RE.

Edited to add: I know nothing about a “collapsed factory brace.” That may be something available on newer DD products. I bought my DDM4 V7P in 2018, equipped with a LAW folder by the assemblers at Daniel Defense. “Collapsing” my DDM4 V7P is done by folding the LAW device. Nothing telescopes to make anything longer or shorter.

This is a pic of the "extended brace" from PewPewTactical: (Maybe "brace extended" would be better phrasing.)
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This is a pic of the "collapsed brace" from PewPewTactical: (Maybe "brace collapsed" would be better phrasing.)
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I'm having trouble visualizing how the LAW brace compares. Since the tube folds around the side (I think), I would think the overall length of the pistol would be shorter than when the RE remains in place whle the brace is "collapsed" (made as short as it can be).

[HCM]

This is a pic of the "extended brace" from PewPewTactical: (Maybe "brace extended" would be better phrasing.)
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This is a pic of the "collapsed brace" from PewPewTactical: (Maybe "brace collapsed" would be better phrasing.)
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I'm having trouble visualizing how the LAW brace compares. Since the tube folds around the side (I think), I would think the overall length of the pistol would be shorter than when the RE remains in place whle the brace is "collapsed" (made as short as it can be).

Because y'all are talking about two different things. P models vs PDW models. The picture you posted, while legally a pistol, is known as the "DD PDW"

The DD models known as "pistols" or P models have longer (10.3-11.5') barrels and braces using standard M4 type REs.

This is the factory configuration of the DD pistols with the LAW folder. This particular type of brace has a fixed LOP. This is what RexG's pistol should have come with.

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This is the factory configuration of the DD pistols with collapsible SB brace. (A3 brace). This brace has adjustable LOP )just like an M4 stock) but the A3 LOP plus the extra 1 1/2" from the LAW folder gives an LOP over 13.5" unless a limiter is installed on the A3.

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Again don't confuse OAL issues with LOP issues.

[TGS]

What's "RE?"

Also, with regard to the overall length when folded/collapsed, is the LAW/Tailhook shorter than the factory brace? I like the idea of the DDM4, but I wonder if the LAW/Tailhook can save me any folded overall length as compared to the 20.75" collapsed factory brace.

If I understand you correctly, you're wondering whether the PDW-type brace would be longer or shorter than a gun with a folded LAW, right?

If so, counting the LAW BCG extension poking out the rear, 20.75" is the exact length I measured my DD Mk18 with folded LAW earlier in this thread, months ago. The shorter 7" barreled DDM4-PDW is the same OAL when folded with the PDW brace collapsed...so, yes, the OAL of the weapon with a PDW brace is ~3.3" longer (or slightly more) when collapsed compared to the LAW folder when folded.

The tradeoff being that you don't have the bulk of the LAW folder on the side when collapsed, which could play a part if you're looking at slim bags to carry it in.

[Jaywalker]

Because y'all are talking about two different things. P models vs PDW models. The picture you posted, while legally a pistol, is known as the "DD PDW"

The DD models known as "pistols" or P models have longer (10.3-11.5') barrels and braces using standard M4 type REs.

Again don't confuse OAL issues with LOP issues.

Thanks for the clarification. I was unaware. This question has never been about LOP.

[Jaywalker]

If I understand you correctly, you're wondering whether the PDW-type brace would be longer or shorter than a gun with a folded LAW, right?

If so, counting the LAW BCG extension poking out the rear, 20.75" is the exact length I measured my DD Mk18 with folded LAW earlier in this thread, months ago. The shorter 7" barreled DDM4-PDW is the same OAL when folded with the PDW brace collapsed...so, yes, the OAL of the weapon with a PDW brace is ~3.3" longer (or slightly more) when collapsed compared to the LAW folder when folded.

The tradeoff being that you don't have the bulk of the LAW folder on the side when collapsed, which could play a part if you're looking at slim bags to carry it in.

Yes, thanks, that's what I'm asking. I appreciate your digging through the misunderstandings.

[Screwball]

For s***s and giggles, I may have just picked up two SBA3s...

Well, not really s***s and giggles. I was debating between a SBA3 and SBA4 to put on my TAC-14 when I AOW it (folding brace). And I’m looking at selling my .40 SUB-2000 to put money towards a 9mm pistol build (Stern Defense, with Glock magazines... since that is what we are issued now; 19s).

The SBA3s were in stock... SBA4s were not.

[WobblyPossum]

For s***s and giggles, I may have just picked up two SBA3s...

Well, not really s***s and giggles. I was debating between a SBA3 and SBA4 to put on my TAC-14 when I AOW it (folding brace). And I’m looking at selling my .40 SUB-2000 to put money towards a 9mm pistol build (Stern Defense, with Glock magazines... since that is what we are issued now; 19s).

The SBA3s were in stock... SBA4s were not.

If you’re planning to make it an NFA firearm anyway, why get a brace instead of a real stock?

[Screwball]

If you’re planning to make it an NFA firearm anyway, why get a brace instead of a real stock?

Two reasons...

AOWs are less strict than SBS. No forms for crossing state lines. Might not be a huge deal, but if I travel, I do like options (even if I SBR the one lower I’m planning, which is my D/I .45, I’ll still have a few pistol lowers).

If I do a stock, it loses its firearm status since a stock was added (now a shotgun). To make it not an NFA item, I’d have to get an 18” barrel. AOW, removing the brace and getting it back to 26” would not screw with the firearm status (easily done with original grip being swapped in; no stock, no foul).

I have considered it (SBS), but while it would be close to what we used to have before Portland (I believe it was an OFO move across the country) pulled our shotguns, I already have a 20” 870P with Magpul furniture that covers majority of my shotgun needs. This would likely be another option for the truck.

[Rex G]

HCM is correct, in post #1892, regarding which DDM4 V7P I have. That rubbery thing attaches and detaches by sliding on and off. With the LAW folder in the unfolded position, that is a l-o-n-g weapon, even with my long monkey arms. I set the multi-position stocks on my AR15/M4 carbines shorter than that.

[WobblyPossum]

Two reasons...

AOWs are less strict than SBS. No forms for crossing state lines. Might not be a huge deal, but if I travel, I do like options (even if I SBR the one lower I’m planning, which is my D/I .45, I’ll still have a few pistol lowers).

If I do a stock, it loses its firearm status since a stock was added (now a shotgun). To make it not an NFA item, I’d have to get an 18” barrel. AOW, removing the brace and getting it back to 26” would not screw with the firearm status (easily done with original grip being swapped in; no stock, no foul).

I have considered it (SBS), but while it would be close to what we used to have before Portland (I believe it was an OFO move across the country) pulled our shotguns, I already have a 20” 870P with Magpul furniture that covers majority of my shotgun needs. This would likely be another option for the truck.

The NFA is so inconsistent and confusing. You can SBR an AR pistol and you can always return it to pistol fo figuration as a non-NFA item. Shotgun “firearm” to SBS means you can’t return it to “firearm” configuration?

[Screwball]

The NFA is so inconsistent and confusing. You can SBR an AR pistol and you can always return it to pistol fo figuration as a non-NFA item. Shotgun “firearm” to SBS means you can’t return it to “firearm” configuration?

Correct with the AR pistol. However, my lowers are pretty much all standard (magazine adapters can come out easily), so the engraved one will stay as the SBR lower... other stocked ones for rifles, and braced ones for pistols. Easy peasy.

The way I see it, you can’t go back to a firearm if you add a stock. If that were the case, I should be able to pull my 870P, and create a firearm (ATF has stated as such since the Shockwave came out). For people to make their own 12 Gauge firearms, it tends to require a virgin receiver.

It is a stupid concept, like the once a machine gun, always a machine gun... but that’s they game they currently play. I’ll play... at least until the overnight “you’re a felon” round.

[OlongJohnson]

For s***s and giggles, I may have just picked up two SBA3s...

Look carefully at the REs they come with. The one on mine was the worst metal I've ever seen on an RE. Cut it apart so it could never accidentally get used, but I can keep it around as an example of how crappy aftermarket parts can be.

[McD]

At the risk of derailing everything, and stipulating that I should probably just text DB this question directly, what is my downside for just using my AUG in this role - home, car, MAYBE backpack?

[Casual Friday]

At the risk of derailing everything, and stipulating that I should probably just text DB this question directly, what is my downside for just using my AUG in this role - home, car, MAYBE backpack?

Only you can determine whether there's a downside or not for your personal use. If you can't think of one, use it until you find one or more that makes you look at other options.

[TGS]

At the risk of derailing everything, and stipulating that I should probably just text DB this question directly, what is my downside for just using my AUG in this role - home, car, MAYBE backpack?

I think that for most users the downsides of bullpups are vastly overblown, and in most cases it would make a fine choice. People have a tendency to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

With that said, it's going to be quite a bit larger than most of the weapons we're discussing here as they have folding stocks. You're going to need a much larger bag than you would need for even a folding Mk18, which in my opinion is really kind of big for a PDW to begin with. IIRC, a folded Mk18 will be almost 8" shorter than an AUG when stowed. Again, I don't really consider even a 10" barreled Mk18 to be a proper PDW and really pushing the envelope.....so we're way outside the working parameters for the concept here.

It's just not really a PDW sized weapon, and you're not going to fit an AUG in commonly used bags that look like you're just another dude walking around with a camera, laptop or gym clothes.

[Norville]

At the risk of derailing everything, and stipulating that I should probably just text DB this question directly, what is my downside for just using my AUG in this role - home, car, MAYBE backpack?

TGS noted some things, but to me the question is can you legally carry a concealed loaded rifle? The selling point of the PDW is most of them are pistols, and covered by a CCW.

[Rex G]

At the risk of derailing everything, and stipulating that I should probably just text DB this question directly, what is my downside for just using my AUG in this role - home, car, MAYBE backpack?

As one replay already indicated, check your local laws, regarding concealment of long guns, and, importantly, whether loaded/unloaded is a factor. Look in the fish and game laws, as well as the weapon laws.

In some places, an improvised container/cover for a long gun may be illegal concealment.

Texas law, for example, is amazingly long-gun-friendly, while not being the friendliest regarding handgun carry. Know; do not just guess.

[Rex G]

At the risk of derailing everything, and stipulating that I should probably just text DB this question directly, what is my downside for just using my AUG in this role - home, car, MAYBE backpack?

Keep in mind that a backpack, that is tall enough to contain a 26” to 27” rifle or shotgun, whether bullpup, folding, or other-ish, is not as portable as those that can accommodate as weapon that is foldable into a 20” to 21” package. There are places that will not allow folks to stroll around with “large backpacks,” but will tolerate bags and backpacks that are suited for large laptops. Keeping your 26.5” on your person will place practical limitations upon your freedom of movement.

To be clear, I am not anti-bullpup. I have a PS90, and know how much trouble it is to carry

[McD]

All very good points!! Thank you! This gives me a lot to think about.

[WobblyPossum]

Primary Arms was running a big sale on Vertx products today so I purchased a Gamut Checkpoint for about $100. It should be able to fit my AR pistol properly. I was hoping to get one of the normal looking colors but they sold out very quickly and I was only able to get on in brighter green that I’d have preferred. Now I’m just waiting for my suppressor to get out of jail.

[Up1911Fan]

Primary Arms was running a big sale on Vertx products today so I purchased a Gamut Checkpoint for about $100. It should be able to fit my AR pistol properly. I was hoping to get one of the normal looking colors but they sold out very quickly and I was only able to get on in brighter green that I’d have preferred. Now I’m just waiting for my suppressor to get out of jail.
Is there a code or was it a 1 day sale? Finally snagged a DD PDW that should be here this week.

[WobblyPossum]

Is there a code or was it a 1 day sale? Finally snagged a DD PDW that should be here this week.

It was a flash sale. The bags sold very quickly.

[Up1911Fan]

What's the preferred light placement on these PDW's from a bag gun context? Was considering and X300 or the new Modlite pistol light when it comes out at 12:00. Noticed SouthNarc had a Modlite at 11:00, not sure if that would add to much width or create a snag point coming out of the bag? Pistol is a Daniel Defense PDW.

[Casual Friday]

What's the preferred light placement on these PDW's from a bag gun context? Was considering and X300 or the new Modlite pistol light when it comes out at 12:00. Noticed SouthNarc had a Modlite at 11:00, not sure if that would add to much width or create a snag point coming out of the bag? Pistol is a Daniel Defense PDW.

I'm using an Arisaka 300 series with a clicky tailcap at 11 o'clock. I haven't had any snagging issues when training with it out of the bag. Sorry for the bad pic, phone is almost 4 years old and it's survived many drops.

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[GJM]

Camped for the night in the desert — match in the am.

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[TGS]

What's the preferred light placement on these PDW's from a bag gun context? Was considering and X300 or the new Modlite pistol light when it comes out at 12:00. Noticed SouthNarc had a Modlite at 11:00, not sure if that would add to much width or create a snag point coming out of the bag? Pistol is a Daniel Defense PDW.

An ambi pistol light is objectively the best thing to do if it doesn't bother you and you're not trying to mount IR illuminators in that position. I don't like other stuff in my sight picture though, distracts me from looking through the RDS and getting a target focus.

I prefer using a tape switch at 12 O'Clock with the light at 1 O'Clock. Keeps it tucked in nicely, enough that I can use it ambidextrously. I can't do that with a clicky cap light at 11 O'Clock.

Either is preferable to having the light at a "traditional" 9 or 3 O'Clock position, which in the context of bagged guns is like Quasimodo trying to become a ninja. It's a giant tumor on the side of the rifle.

[BobM]

I have a TLR HL upside down at 1200 on the rail of my 300BO pistol. I also have one that way on a rifle. It offers ambidextrous operation.

[HCM]

I have a TLR HL upside down at 1200 on the rail of my 300BO pistol. I also have one that way on a rifle. It offers ambidextrous operation.

I'm very curious to try the new Streamlight RM 1 and RM 2. They appear to be a version of the TLR 7/8/9 with switching similar to the inforce long gun lights, but with the added option of a pressure switch.

I've always like the form factor of the Inforce long gun lights but durability has always been iffy.

https://www.streamlight.com/products/detail/index/tlr-rm1

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https://www.streamlight.com/products/detail/index/tlr-rm2

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[GJM]

A consideration for me is being able to make the light inert in your bag so it doesn’t activate unintentionally. Last night, settled in for the night watching our US Marshall show, a truck pulled right up to us making me glad to have the Rattler. Of course this is the kind of weapon light that is ideal.

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[mmc45414]

I'm very curious to try the new Streamlight RM 1 and RM 2. They appear to be a version of the TLR 7/8/9 with switching similar to the inforce long gun lights, but with the added option of a pressure switch.
I have an RM2 and it seems like pretty nice kit, but I really do not have that much weapon mounted light experience. I have a shorter handguard on order that will move it back a little, and I might try an RM1 for the less weight.


A consideration for me is being able to make the light inert in your bag so it doesn’t activate unintentionally.
Yes, you spin the cap a bit. It was kinda reluctant when new but is breaking in a bit. My big challenge is remembering to do it when it goes in the bag and when it comes back out of the bag.
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[Up1911Fan]

Picked this up today. This week should be recieving more Lancer mags, some 110gr Barnes, Modlite, T2 and a pair of Vertx bags to see which works better.
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[WobblyPossum]

My Vertx Gamut Checkpoint arrived yesterday. My 11.5” Law folder AR pistol fits but it’s a tight fit with very little wiggle room. The gun currently wears a YHM muzzle brake for compatibility with the Turbo K I’m waiting to be approved for. I was planning to swap the muzzle brake for a Q Cherry Bomb which would allow for two configurations. I would be able to use the gun suppressed with a Plan B mounted on my suppressor (range and home defense use) or with a Whistle Tip to act as a blast mitigation device when it wouldn’t be feasible to suppress it (when it might be deployed from the bag, for example). With the Checkpoint, I don’t think there’s any way the gun would fit with the Whistle Tip mounted because of the extra length. I really don’t want to shoot an unsuppressed 11.5” 5.56 gun wearing a muzzle brake without ear pro on and was hoping something like the Whistle Tip would at least direct a portion of the muzzle blast away from me. That doesn’t look like an option now.

I guess I could carry the suppressor in the bag with the gun. That would at least give me the option to mount the suppressor on the gun if there was time. The scenarios I envision using a bag-gun generally allow for a little more time to get the gun out than the scenarios in which my normal on-body-concealed handgun would be the appropriate tool for. If I need a gun RIGHT THIS MOMENT OR I’M GOING TO DIE, it’s a CCW handgun situation, not the bag-gun situation. For anyone else running a short 5.56 gun, are you doing anything to mitigate the blast/noise of you had to deploy it? If so, what?

[Up1911Fan]

Really digging this light setup so far, although I may switch the mounting over to a Unity micro hub to get a front sight on. Real estate is pretty limited and I can't get a folding front on with the light where I want it. Ordered a couple Vertx backpacks to figure out which will work for my needs. The gun fits both but is a tight fit in the Gamut 2.0.
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[Default.mp3]

Really digging this light setup so far, although I may switch the mounting over to a Unity micro hub to get a front sight on. Real estate is pretty limited and I can't get a folding front on with the light where I want it. Ordered a couple Vertx backpacks to figure out which will work for my needs. The gun fits both but is a tight fit in the Gamut 2.0.
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64461
64462Why not just run the front sight a bit further back? Yeah, you lose sight radius, but let's be real, how often are you really gonna be using the BUIS, and is a few inches of lost sight radius really going to make a difference?

[theJanitor]

MLok Hot button works really well on that part of the rail, too. And gives a constant-on option

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201210/33877bef2976583bcd612786a31f1212.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Corse]

Really digging this light setup so far, although I may switch the mounting over to a Unity micro hub to get a front sight on. Real estate is pretty limited and I can't get a folding front on with the light where I want it. Ordered a couple Vertx backpacks to figure out which will work for my needs. The gun fits both but is a tight fit in the Gamut 2.0.
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What mount are you using for the light?

[Up1911Fan]

What mount are you using for the light?

Inline Arisaka mlock.

[rdtompki]

Only a old retired person living in Idaho such as myself could have read so much of this thread. I currently use 9mm 8" CMMG RDB upperson an ADM lowers for both casual USPSA competition and HD. The HD wears an Omega 9K suppressor. These are handy and my buffer setup (A5 buffer tube with Kynshot buffer will run all 9mm ammo combinations with and without the suppressor with minimal recoil and should perform similarly with 300BLK. I am looking at 300BLK as a truck/RV gun and a pistol configuration, possibly with folder, is interesting. I have room in both truck and small RV for the SBR configuration, but then I'm into Form 20's and such. Anyway, lots of options and the info is much appreciated. I'm going to pick up the 300BLK upper in the next couple of days and I'll see how it functions on the SBR lower if I can find any ammo.

[CleverNickname]

Looks like Magpul will finally be making the folding 9mm PDW they demoed 10+ years ago.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twdhK9rWkaw

[masternave]

KD4’s BCM cut down grip he teased a while back appears to be coming soon… https://www.instagram.com/p/CKG0bnzFONq/

[El Cid]

Looks like Magpul will finally be making the folding 9mm PDW they demoed 10+ years ago.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twdhK9rWkaw

Just in time for the dumocraps to outlaw it before it hits shelves...

[snow white]

Just in time for the dumocraps to outlaw it before it hits shelves...

I'm definitely going to pick one up if we are allowed to own anything other than sharp sticks by that point.

[Up1911Fan]

KD4’s BCM cut down grip he teased a while back appears to be coming soon… https://www.instagram.com/p/CKG0bnzFONq/

Here it is.
66569

[Up1911Fan]

Reconfigured the front end on my DDM4 PDW as I really wanted BUIS but none of the ones I had on hand would work the way I wanted with the Modlite/pressure switch. Enter the Magpul MBUS Pro. Slim and low profile, perfect for my application.
66732

[CleverNickname]

Other Rattler owners, what are you using for a light on your Rattler? The best potential choice I've come up with is a Streamlight RM1 on the top rail, reasoning that Streamlight is a known good manufacturer, centerline mounting doesn't increase the gun's width (nice for storage), and centerline mounting allows ambidextrous activation of the light. But I'd like to see what others have chosen before I buy anything.

[GJM]

Other Rattler owners, what are you using for a light on your Rattler? The best potential choice I've come up with is a Streamlight RM1 on the top rail, reasoning that Streamlight is a known good manufacturer, centerline mounting doesn't increase the gun's width (nice for storage), and centerline mounting allows ambidextrous activation of the light. But I'd like to see what others have chosen before I buy anything.

67173

[snow white]

Cross posting from the show off thread. Only a .22 but its the closest thing I own to a PDW. Its going to get the form 1 treatment and get a folding stock Frankensteined on to it once the stamp clears
67174
67175

[Corse]

Other Rattler owners, what are you using for a light on your Rattler? The best potential choice I've come up with is a Streamlight RM1 on the top rail, reasoning that Streamlight is a known good manufacturer, centerline mounting doesn't increase the gun's width (nice for storage), and centerline mounting allows ambidextrous activation of the light. But I'd like to see what others have chosen before I buy anything.

I had a streamlight pistol light mounted on the top rail for a while, but I recently switched to a surefire scout pro with a mod button.

[Snapper314]

Other Rattler owners, what are you using for a light on your Rattler? The best potential choice I've come up with is a Streamlight RM1 on the top rail, reasoning that Streamlight is a known good manufacturer, centerline mounting doesn't increase the gun's width (nice for storage), and centerline mounting allows ambidextrous activation of the light. But I'd like to see what others have chosen before I buy anything.

I recently picked up a Rattler and agree with the centerline positioning.

I currently have an Olight Baldr Mini on mine. I've only put a little over 50 rounds through it, but so far its working well.

[Ndbbm]

Other Rattler owners, what are you using for a light on your Rattler? The best potential choice I've come up with is a Streamlight RM1 on the top rail, reasoning that Streamlight is a known good manufacturer, centerline mounting doesn't increase the gun's width (nice for storage), and centerline mounting allows ambidextrous activation of the light. But I'd like to see what others have chosen before I buy anything.

I put an older X300 on the top of mine. It works well in a bag for me, but I also haven’t been able to shoot it much lately.

Jason

[WobblyPossum]

Does anyone have an APC9SD? I’m interested in hearing about people’s experiences with that model as it’s still something I’m interested in picking up.

[StraitR]

Here it is.
66569

I really like that, A LOT. If they made it with the normal storage door found on all the other GF grips, I'd be all over it for my PDW. It's such a convenient place to store a copy of a suppressor stamp (folded up in a zip-loc bag), I won't go without it.

[Up1911Fan]

I really like that, A LOT. If they made it with the normal storage door found on all the other GF grips, I'd be all over it for my PDW. It's such a convenient place to store a copy of a suppressor stamp (folded up in a zip-loc bag), I won't go without it.

Yeah I REALLY wish it had storage, but it's a fair trade off.

[757_Magnum]

For those of you who have wanted to try CMMG's radial delayed blowback but hate the funky look of Glock mags in a PCC or don't trust their Pmag adapter, they just announced it's available in their MK9 Colt mag format. They're also offering retrofit kits for owners who have their older MK9 lowers.

[OlongJohnson]

Reviving this thread to talk about 1913-interface side-folding braces. I am really focused on a Contender application, but I figure this a better place to talk about side-folding 1913-mount braces.

I spent some quality time with Contender parts and the scale this evening. I have a Choate M4 adaptor, which I've been planning to use to install a receiver extension and either Magpul MOE SL-K buttstock or SBA3 brace, depending on what barrel I want to use. I currently do have a Super 16 barrel in .223, which makes it a legal non-SBR. The problem is it all gets heavier than I want it to be. Also, it doesn't fold, so I can't just throw it in a backpack. Yada, yada, all discussed throughout this thread.

I also picked up the Sharps Bros. 3D printed Contender grip, which puts a vertical 1913 interface on the back of the gun, opening up the option of using all those braces. https://sharpsbros.com/t-c-g1-original-contender-grip-with-1913-picatinny-interface-black/ Didn't really like the grip shape at first, but am thinking it's at least worth working with a little. It's really light.

SSK has mentioned they are also working on something in this arena, but I don't have any more info than that.

I've basically been looking for info and reports on the SB 1913 brace and the Sig PCB. Specific comments from earlier in this thread on those two in these quotes. Not sure why the pics aren't included in the quote, but this post (click to the original to see the pics) really makes me want to stay away from anything that works with a receiver extension, such as the Tailhook Mod1:


Some of Sig's original folders for their pistols made the weapon quite thick when folded. So the bag needed to be thicker to accommodate the brace. Here's my MCX Gen 1 pistol with an 11.5" 5.56 upper. I purchased the Rattler upper around the same time and swapped out the uppers. As you can see in the photos, the original pistol brace was quite thick. The other is the SB1913 brace I ran for a short period of time. This made for a more compact set up when folded. Sorry for the shadowing in the pics.


I'm using the Sig PCB folding brace now. The adaptor to the pistol is more robust. The rail section does not flex as easily as the SB 1913. It is thin but comfortable when firing.


I have used both the SB 1913 and Sig Pivoting Contour Folding Brace (PCB)

The SB 1913 brace does not rotate which is a positive. However, the attachment to the pistol is not as robust as the Sig version. Additionally the composite rail extending back to the forearm brace flexes more than the Sig

The Sig PCB forearm brace does rotate. This is a draw back in my eyes. The attachment assembly and rail are more robust.

...

Here's two poor quality photos of the attachment areas for the PCB (larger photo) and the SB1913 I copied from the WEB. The Sig is very stout. As for the rotation, I took mine apart, glued on side down and reassembled. Hasn't moved yet.

JW

Curious whether anybody has experience with the aluminum version of the SB1913? The aluminum weighs a little more, but I've been leaning toward it on the assumption it would be stiffer.

I've seen a statement that the SB1913 brace is an inch longer than the Sig PCB.

I've been looking at both butt stocks and braces. I'm not married to the idea of having it be a braced pistol; I think I could live with it either/or reasonably well. That puts the Sig Minimalist (https://www.sigsauer.com/minimalist-mini-folding-stock-mcx-mpx.html) and Minimalist-Plus (https://www.sigsauer.com/minimalist-plus-folding-stock-mcx-mpx.html) stocks into play (I've found the Minimalist in stock online), as well as the original MCX/MPX Thin Folding Stock, which I've found one retailer web site claiming to still have in stock. I kinda like the simplicity and robustness of all aluminum, small and light. I could stamp a Contender, but don't need to. With a Super 16 barrel, it would come out ~19-20 inches OAL with a folded side folder. The 11-13 oz range for the folder assembly gets me overall where I want to be for the combination.

As noted above, I have contemplated the Tailhook Mod 1. Would need to pair it with a side-folding receiver extension adaptor and RE, which drives the cost up. Gear head has a RE made to place the Tailhook farther out, ~9 inches instead of ~7 of a standard RE, but from what I can tell, they basically have a solid slug of material in the last two inches of the RE, making it quite heavy. One review compared it to a baseball bat. I could throw it in the lathe and bore it out, but it would still have the thickness that I'd like to avoid when folded.

I did find this adaptor for Tailhook to Sig PCB that eliminates the spin, https://customsmithmfg.com/shop/ols/products/sig-mcxmpxrattler-brace-to-tailhook-adapter/v/SIG-MCX-MPX-RTT-GR-HD, but buying a PCB, a Tailhook, and that adaptor starts making a stamp look like a good idea.

I guess I'm looking for overall thoughts on:

SB1913 brace and poly vs. aluminum
Sig PCB
Sig and any other side-folding legal rifle stocks of quality
(The Choate side folding Contender stock is not interesting to me.)

[Tokarev]

Has anyone shot one of these yet?

https://christensenarms.com/modern-precision-pistol/

I recently handled the 6.5 Creedmoor version and was surprised at how light and handy it felt. It would probably be a great firearm to throw in the saddle bag of a motorcycle or snow mobile or in the survival kit in a Cessna.

I don't know if it fits into the common definition/feature set of a PDW but it might work well in the role. Maybe more of a back woods or rural PDW?

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[OlongJohnson]

Has anyone shot one of these yet?

https://christensenarms.com/modern-precision-pistol/

Nope. And with a 12.5-inch barrel and muzzle break in a .308-based cartridge, I don't want to.

[Rex G]

Has anyone shot one of these yet?

https://christensenarms.com/modern-precision-pistol/

I recently handled the 6.5 Creedmoor version and was surprised at how light and handy it felt. It would probably be a great firearm to throw in the saddle bag of a motorcycle or snow mobile or in the survival kit in a Cessna.

I don't know if it fits into the common definition/feature set of a PDW but it might work well in the role. Maybe more of a back woods or rural PDW?

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

Well, 6.5 Creedmoor would not be first choice, among the available offered, for a pistol, but, yes, very much yes, I’d seriously consider this option. (I already have .308, .223/5.56, and .300 BLK/AAC weapons, and, I do not remember the 6.5 being a best choice for minimal-length rifle barrels.)

I would want to see significant advantages, compared to a Uinta Precision upper unit, that fits an AR15 lower. The Christensen Arms option is probably lighter in weight, and slimmer, but I would want to confirm that. (Uinta Precision has been on my radar for some time; I have not handled or seen one.)

Edited to add: Yeah, it would be a niche weapon, but that is all I really look at, anymore, anyway.

[Tokarev]

I do not remember the 6.5 being a best choice for minimal-length rifle barrels...

A brief interweb search shows something like 2,200 FPS with a 147gr bullet. Sort of 7.62x39-ish at that point.

There are, obviously, lighter weight options. Something in the 125gr range may yield 2,450 FPS from a 12" barrel. Hmmm. That's even more 7.62x39 ish.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[helothar]

Reviving this thread to talk about 1913-interface side-folding braces. I am really focused on a Contender application, but I figure this a better place to talk about side-folding 1913-mount braces.

I spent some quality time with Contender parts and the scale this evening. I have a Choate M4 adaptor, which I've been planning to use to install a receiver extension and either Magpul MOE SL-K buttstock or SBA3 brace, depending on what barrel I want to use. I currently do have a Super 16 barrel in .223, which makes it a legal non-SBR. The problem is it all gets heavier than I want it to be. Also, it doesn't fold, so I can't just throw it in a backpack. Yada, yada, all discussed throughout this thread.

I also picked up the Sharps Bros. 3D printed Contender grip, which puts a vertical 1913 interface on the back of the gun, opening up the option of using all those braces. https://sharpsbros.com/t-c-g1-original-contender-grip-with-1913-picatinny-interface-black/ Didn't really like the grip shape at first, but am thinking it's at least worth working with a little. It's really light.

SSK has mentioned they are also working on something in this arena, but I don't have any more info than that.

I've basically been looking for info and reports on the SB 1913 brace and the Sig PCB. Specific comments from earlier in this thread on those two in these quotes. Not sure why the pics aren't included in the quote, but this post (click to the original to see the pics) really makes me want to stay away from anything that works with a receiver extension, such as the Tailhook Mod1:







Curious whether anybody has experience with the aluminum version of the SB1913? The aluminum weighs a little more, but I've been leaning toward it on the assumption it would be stiffer.

I've seen a statement that the SB1913 brace is an inch longer than the Sig PCB.

I've been looking at both butt stocks and braces. I'm not married to the idea of having it be a braced pistol; I think I could live with it either/or reasonably well. That puts the Sig Minimalist (https://www.sigsauer.com/minimalist-mini-folding-stock-mcx-mpx.html) and Minimalist-Plus (https://www.sigsauer.com/minimalist-plus-folding-stock-mcx-mpx.html) stocks into play (I've found the Minimalist in stock online), as well as the original MCX/MPX Thin Folding Stock, which I've found one retailer web site claiming to still have in stock. I kinda like the simplicity and robustness of all aluminum, small and light. I could stamp a Contender, but don't need to. With a Super 16 barrel, it would come out ~19-20 inches OAL with a folded side folder. The 11-13 oz range for the folder assembly gets me overall where I want to be for the combination.

As noted above, I have contemplated the Tailhook Mod 1. Would need to pair it with a side-folding receiver extension adaptor and RE, which drives the cost up. Gear head has a RE made to place the Tailhook farther out, ~9 inches instead of ~7 of a standard RE, but from what I can tell, they basically have a solid slug of material in the last two inches of the RE, making it quite heavy. One review compared it to a baseball bat. I could throw it in the lathe and bore it out, but it would still have the thickness that I'd like to avoid when folded.

I did find this adaptor for Tailhook to Sig PCB that eliminates the spin, https://customsmithmfg.com/shop/ols/products/sig-mcxmpxrattler-brace-to-tailhook-adapter/v/SIG-MCX-MPX-RTT-GR-HD, but buying a PCB, a Tailhook, and that adaptor starts making a stamp look like a good idea.

I guess I'm looking for overall thoughts on:

SB1913 brace and poly vs. aluminum
Sig PCB
Sig and any other side-folding legal rifle stocks of quality
(The Choate side folding Contender stock is not interesting to me.)

No trigger time on it yet but i have the sb aluminum 1913 brace on the rattler. Lock up seems solid, does not lock in the folded position but is not loose. Not sure if its an issue with all braces or just this one but it activates the bolt release when in the folded position. I've got no experience with the sig pcb so can't compare in that regard. I have it mounted as low as possible on the 1913 adapter as it seems like it would be really easy to skin your knuckles when working the charging handle. Hopefully I'll be able to sight in the t1 I've got on it Friday but currently my supply of supersonics is *very* low so won't be able to really put it through the paces.

[jandbj]

Reviving this thread to talk about 1913-interface side-folding braces. I am really focused on a Contender application, but I figure this a better place to talk about side-folding 1913-mount braces.

I spent some quality time with Contender parts and the scale this evening. I have a Choate M4 adaptor, which I've been planning to use to install a receiver extension and either Magpul MOE SL-K buttstock or SBA3 brace, depending on what barrel I want to use. I currently do have a Super 16 barrel in .223, which makes it a legal non-SBR. The problem is it all gets heavier than I want it to be. Also, it doesn't fold, so I can't just throw it in a backpack. Yada, yada, all discussed throughout this thread.

I also picked up the Sharps Bros. 3D printed Contender grip, which puts a vertical 1913 interface on the back of the gun, opening up the option of using all those braces. https://sharpsbros.com/t-c-g1-original-contender-grip-with-1913-picatinny-interface-black/ Didn't really like the grip shape at first, but am thinking it's at least worth working with a little. It's really light.

SSK has mentioned they are also working on something in this arena, but I don't have any more info than that.

I've basically been looking for info and reports on the SB 1913 brace and the Sig PCB. Specific comments from earlier in this thread on those two in these quotes. Not sure why the pics aren't included in the quote, but this post (click to the original to see the pics) really makes me want to stay away from anything that works with a receiver extension, such as the Tailhook Mod1:







Curious whether anybody has experience with the aluminum version of the SB1913? The aluminum weighs a little more, but I've been leaning toward it on the assumption it would be stiffer.

I've seen a statement that the SB1913 brace is an inch longer than the Sig PCB.

I've been looking at both butt stocks and braces. I'm not married to the idea of having it be a braced pistol; I think I could live with it either/or reasonably well. That puts the Sig Minimalist (https://www.sigsauer.com/minimalist-mini-folding-stock-mcx-mpx.html) and Minimalist-Plus (https://www.sigsauer.com/minimalist-plus-folding-stock-mcx-mpx.html) stocks into play (I've found the Minimalist in stock online), as well as the original MCX/MPX Thin Folding Stock, which I've found one retailer web site claiming to still have in stock. I kinda like the simplicity and robustness of all aluminum, small and light. I could stamp a Contender, but don't need to. With a Super 16 barrel, it would come out ~19-20 inches OAL with a folded side folder. The 11-13 oz range for the folder assembly gets me overall where I want to be for the combination.

As noted above, I have contemplated the Tailhook Mod 1. Would need to pair it with a side-folding receiver extension adaptor and RE, which drives the cost up. Gear head has a RE made to place the Tailhook farther out, ~9 inches instead of ~7 of a standard RE, but from what I can tell, they basically have a solid slug of material in the last two inches of the RE, making it quite heavy. One review compared it to a baseball bat. I could throw it in the lathe and bore it out, but it would still have the thickness that I'd like to avoid when folded.

I did find this adaptor for Tailhook to Sig PCB that eliminates the spin, https://customsmithmfg.com/shop/ols/products/sig-mcxmpxrattler-brace-to-tailhook-adapter/v/SIG-MCX-MPX-RTT-GR-HD, but buying a PCB, a Tailhook, and that adaptor starts making a stamp look like a good idea.

I guess I'm looking for overall thoughts on:

SB1913 brace and poly vs. aluminum
Sig PCB
Sig and any other side-folding legal rifle stocks of quality
(The Choate side folding Contender stock is not interesting to me.)

I run a polymer 1913 brace on my charger and it works great. No issues with lockup or spin. Will try it on my solo 300 AR pistol build once I finish my uppers. 7.62x39 & 6.5 Grendel

On my SBR Contender, I run a factory TC polymer youth stock to keep it as lightweight as possible.

[Snapper314]

I went with the Sig Sauer Folding Brace, and modified it to work with the Tailhook Mod-c from Gear Head Works.

https://cdn11.bigcommerce.com/s-qagq9e0hf6/images/stencil/1280x1280/products/150/563/Image_from_iOS_7__19258.1621262677.jpg

[RancidSumo]

Are we still doing backpack guns? Finally took the LAW off my 11.5 and put it on my 5” 300. I think it made both rifles better.

74940
74941
74942

[RancidSumo]

Are we still doing backpack guns? Finally took the LAW off my 11.5 and put it on my 5” 300. I think it made both rifles better.


7" barrel - don't know why i wrote 5.

[5pins]

My FrainkinRattler 5.56 11.5 BR.

https://i.imgur.com/DCTeirml.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/yLLsjCel.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/6boa6E4l.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/h1y1Owdl.jpg

[jh9]

Are we still doing backpack guns? Finally took the LAW off my 11.5 and put it on my 5” 300. I think it made both rifles better.


I don't suppose you've also got a bag that would fit that 11.5" + law folder?

Seems like there was some chatter in this thread about that configuration some time ago but this thread is 200 pages so it's not the easiest thing to find.

edit: preferably something like that gregory bag you're using for the 7" and less mispec/tactical looking.

[RancidSumo]

I don't suppose you've also got a bag that would fit that 11.5" + law folder?

Seems like there was some chatter in this thread about that configuration some time ago but this thread is 200 pages so it's not the easiest thing to find.

edit: preferably something like that gregory bag you're using for the 7" and less mispec/tactical looking.

Unfortunately, I do not. Never found something like that but I can’t claim to have look very hard. The Gregory is just a lucky coincidence - it’s been my travel backpack for years. This pack has been on my radar for a while in the gray/orange color, but I never got one to test and haven’t actually checked the measurements. Might be worth looking into. https://eberlestock.com/collections/everyday/products/cherry-bomb-pack?variant=18537397125171

I carried the 11.5 in the SMG bag you can kind of see under the backpack.

[spelingmastir]

Mystery Ranch Urban Assault 21 holds an 11.5 upper with Surefire 3P flash hider and Law Folder. Tight squeeze but it fits and is low profile. Ran this setup at a Bill Rapier compact carbine class last year.

[GyroF-16]

I don't suppose you've also got a bag that would fit that 11.5" + law folder?

Seems like there was some chatter in this thread about that configuration some time ago but this thread is 200 pages so it's not the easiest thing to find.

edit: preferably something like that gregory bag you're using for the 7" and less mispec/tactical looking.

Not RancidSumo, but I’ve had good results with a Vertx Gamut Checkpoint. Fits an 11.5 LAW-foldered AR w/ an SF3P.

[jh9]

Thanks for the bag suggestions. The Vertx and Mystery Ranch both look good. One of them is even in stock. :cool:

[WobblyPossum]

Whats everyone using for a weapon light on their MPX/APC9/Stribog type guns? I was thinking that a pistol light like an X300U or a TLR1-HL at 12 o’clock would make more sense than something like a Surefire Scout or the Modlite equivalent due to the limited effective range of one of these guns compared to something in a rifle caliber. Am I on the right track?

[dontshakepandas]

Whats everyone using for a weapon light on their MPX/APC9/Stribog type guns? I was thinking that a pistol light like an X300U or a TLR1-HL at 12 o’clock would make more sense than something like a Surefire Scout or the Modlite equivalent due to the limited effective range of one of these guns compared to something in a rifle caliber. Am I on the right track?

I tried an X300U at 12 o'clock on my APC9k and it just didn't work as well as I thought it would. The reach to the paddles worked OK for momentary on, but was very awkward if I wanted constant on or to turn it off. I also worry about the switches coming on accidentally in a bag.

The only downside with the APC9k was finding a light setup that I was really happy, but I think I finally found it after like 5 tries. The Surefire Pro swivel mount got the light really close to the gun and the top rail so it doesn't interfere with the folding stock or put the light in a spot to block the ejection port like other MLOK mounts I tried. I don't find the light output overkill at all considering Surefire goes for a lot more spill and isn't as focused on throw as the Modlites I have on rifles. The one cell light would have been fine also, but I wanted something a little longer to get rid of the suppressor shadow since I only shoot it suppressed.

I had to remove the right side charging handle, but that was necessary for most of the options I tired and I only use the left side anyways so I don't consider that a huge sacrifice.

77098

[WobblyPossum]

dontshakepandas That looks like a solid setup. I recently ordered an APC9 Pro with the Glock magazine lower and should hopefully be able to pick it up next week. A rifle-style light interfering with the charging handles was one of the things I was concerned about. The slightly longer handguard of the non-k version should probably have less risk of the light blocking the charging handle but I’m glad to see it’s a simple fix to remove the handle on the light side. I don’t have a pistol caliber suppressor yet but plan to get one down the road. The longer light decreasing shadow is a valid point. The K looks like it would be very cramped at the top rail with a pistol light at 12 o’clock as well.

How do you like that B&T stock? I’m initially planning to get the SB Tactical brace that looks similar to that stock and, if I like it enough, I might SBR the gun and get that buttstock.

[dontshakepandas]

How do you like that B&T stock? I’m initially planning to get the SB Tactical brace that looks similar to that stock and, if I like it enough, I might SBR the gun and get that buttstock.

I like the stock a lot, but there isn't a whole lot to it. A lot of people like the telescoping stock/brace and after trying them I just don't like them. They are super uncomfortable to shoot, actually make the gun bigger in the dimensions that matter to me, and cost $600.

The SB Tactical brace is ok, but it really didn't work well as a brace for me since it didn't fit around my arm well. I was using a Custom Smith Manufacturing brace with a tail hook before I got my stamp since the tail hook actually works as a brace, but ironically I think it actually counts against you more in the new AFT brace calculations.

Unless you have a specific need to keep it a pistol, I'd suggest just going with the SBR route. My e-file Form 1 was approved in less than 2 weeks. If the brace rules do end up getting changed I would imagine a huge influx of applications so it would probably be nice to be on the front end of that.

[HeavyDuty]

I like the stock a lot, but there isn't a whole lot to it. A lot of people like the telescoping stock/brace and after trying them I just don't like them. They are super uncomfortable to shoot, actually make the gun bigger in the dimensions that matter to me, and cost $600.

The SB Tactical brace is ok, but it really didn't work well as a brace for me since it didn't fit around my arm well. I was using a Custom Smith Manufacturing brace with a tail hook before I got my stamp since the tail hook actually works as a brace, but ironically I think it actually counts against you more in the new AFT brace calculations.

Unless you have a specific need to keep it a pistol, I'd suggest just going with the SBR route. My e-file Form 1 was approved in less than 2 weeks. If the brace rules do end up getting changed I would imagine a huge influx of applications so it would probably be nice to be on the front end of that.

The rush may have already started - I e-filed my Scorpion Form 1 on 8-4 and am still waiting.

[dontshakepandas]

The rush may have already started - I e-filed my Scorpion Form 1 on 8-4 and am still waiting.

I submitted mine on 8/13 and it was approved on 8/25. Maybe I just got lucky.

[HeavyDuty]

I submitted mine on 8/13 and it was approved on 8/25. Maybe I just got lucky.

Was this your first? It’s mine, and I wonder if that can cause a delay.

[dontshakepandas]

Was this your first? It’s mine, and I wonder if that can cause a delay.

That could have something to do with it. I have several suppressors and a few other form 1 SBRs. Hopefully yours will be approved soon... along with my form 4 for my Sandman K.

[TGS]

9-Hole Reviews did a video on the PDW concept. Suggested viewing material for anyone who is having trouble understanding it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eEt4Y_STOw

[Velo Dog]

9-Hole Reviews did a video on the PDW concept. Suggested viewing material for anyone who is having trouble understanding it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eEt4Y_STOw

Pinned by 9-Hole Reviews in the comments section:

"Seems like some guys are looking at bullpups as a PDW. I want to reiterate that PDW's are dependent on an INTENDED DEFENSIVE ROLE.
The Tavor was designed as a general purpose rifle.
The MP5a3, UMP, etc were designed as a general purpose SMG.
While these can be pressed into PDW use (though the Tavor is more of a military PDW use), they were designed with a general purpose intent.

The Steyr TMP/ B&T MP9/TP9 does not explicitly say it's a PDW, but the layout seems to go the direction of the Vz61 where it's categorized as a machine pistol, but in reality is a ground-up type I design with Type III SMG internals."

[SouthNarc]

9-Hole Reviews did a video on the PDW concept. Suggested viewing material for anyone who is having trouble understanding it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eEt4Y_STOw


That's a really cogent and well done video.

[Sero Sed Serio]

Are we still doing backpack guns?

I've been meaning to post my backpack setup but kept getting distracted by shiny things:

Daniel Defense PDW pistol in 300 Blk

Aimpoint T2 with Scalarworks lower 1/3 QD mount
Streamlight TLR8-G weapon light/green laser
Bobro Engineering Lowrider folding BUIS
BCM KD4 pistol grip
D&H 20 rd. 300 Blk specific mags


The pack is a Vertx EDC Gamut 2.0 that was exclusive to OpticsPlanet and is slightly larger than the standard Gamut 2.0 (22" vs. 21" and 28L vs. 25). With the brace closed completely and the pack's laptop sleeve adjusted for the full length of the pack, the pistol fits in easily muzzle down with only a tiny amount printing from the very back of the brace that gets lost in the contours of the pack.

77501

With a liberal amount of swearing properly applied, the pack will accommodate the pistol and a slick plate carrier (Velocity Systems Assault Plate Carrier with API-BZ plates and 3 30 rd. mags in the kangaroo pouch). It's bulky, but not too bad.

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Whats everyone using for a weapon light on their MPX/APC9/Stribog type guns? I was thinking that a pistol light like an X300U or a TLR1-HL at 12 o’clock would make more sense than something like a Surefire Scout or the Modlite equivalent due to the limited effective range of one of these guns compared to something in a rifle caliber. Am I on the right track?

I think so. For me 12 o'clock was very important to reduce snagging as the weapon is presented from the pack.

While I greatly prefer momentary activation switches to the click on/click off switching of the original TLR7/8, I decided on the click on/off switch to reduce the likelihood of accidental activation in the pack since it's a tight fit. Given the [extremely limited subset of extremely limited] circumstances under which this weapon might be deployed, the chances of needing to immediately shut off the light are minuscule as compared to the benefits of low-profile switching. Also using the laser as the secondary sighting system, I'd prefer it to stay on until I decide to shut it off. The BUIS is tertiary and only added because the Lowriders are so small there was no reason not to.

[OlongJohnson]

Well, this is interesting. Maybe I'm late to the party, but I didn't notice these earlier.

BROWNELLS - BRN-180™ STRIPPED LOWER RECEIVER FORGED (https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/receivers/lower-receivers/brn-180-stripped-lower-receiver-forged-prod130438.aspx)

Integrated PIC mount for a folding buttstock in the lower forging. No need for an adaptor or LAW folder.

[CleverNickname]

Well, this is interesting. Maybe I'm late to the party, but I didn't notice these earlier.

BROWNELLS - BRN-180™ STRIPPED LOWER RECEIVER FORGED (https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/receivers/lower-receivers/brn-180-stripped-lower-receiver-forged-prod130438.aspx)

Integrated PIC mount for a folding buttstock in the lower forging. No need for an adaptor or LAW folder.

To be clear, those will only work with a BRN-180 upper or something like a .22LR upper where the BCG doesn't recoil into the receiver extension. Most people using LAW folders are still using normal DI uppers where the BCG does recoil into the receiver extension, meaning this lower wouldn't work.

[OlongJohnson]

Right. But with a standard lower and a BRN-180 upper, you still need a Pic adaptor or a folder adaptor to get the folding. With this, get the BRN-180 upper, throw an LPK in the lower, attach a Pic-compatible brace (for however long that lasts), and rock on.

[jh9]

a BRN-180 upper,

How have those been working out, btw? Early reviews were iffy. Did they ever get any better? The 10" barreled version still looks interesting but I'm full up on "projects that need to be tweaked and fixed" to run.

[Caballoflaco]

Some more from 9 Hole Reviews re MP7 vs P90


https://youtu.be/Py9MJUmdQ4o

[Caballoflaco]

Bonus content from the comments section of the above video.


Sauli Luolajan-Mikkola 11 hours ago
You all got it wrong: the Russians used pencils to pack gunshot wounds, tampons to write in space, and NASA developed the space pen to penetrate Russian paratrooper armor.

[theJanitor]

I decided on the click on/off switch to reduce the likelihood of accidental activation in the pack since it's a tight fit.

A M300 (or modlite equivalent) mounted at 12:00 with the shrouded tailcap is tough, ambidextrous, and svelte too. It's no taller than a x300, really. It might look odd at first, but it's quite a nice solution for actually having a rifle light, and not hanging off the side

[Sero Sed Serio]

A M300 (or modlite equivalent) mounted at 12:00 with the shrouded tailcap is tough, ambidextrous, and svelte too. It's no taller than a x300, really. It might look odd at first, but it's quite a nice solution for actually having a rifle light, and not hanging off the side

That's a really good idea, thanks for the suggestion!

[Dov]

That would be interesting and it got me to wonder about something: 300 BLK ballistics.

I often hear the 300 BLK compared to the 7.62x39, but when it is being shot out of a real short PDW like barrel like the Rattler, don't we basically have 110gr bullets right around 2000fps, if not a little less?
If so, we then have a 110gr, 30 cal. bullet going at or near mach2, and that's .30 carbine ballistics, isn't it?

I remember Jim Cirillo saying that the .30 carbine was extremely effective in his shootings and the modern 110gr 300 BLK bullets should be much more effective.

So depending on barrel length, we have a round that can act like anything between 7.62x39 and .30 Carbine? If so, that makes the caliber that much more interesting, to me at least.

This may have been mentioned somewhere is this long thread, I'm still working my way through it, but the Stakeout Squad used cut down M1 Carbines as well as shotguns.

Mentioned short OAL mattered for some of their Stakeout Hide positions, Rhett's Cheek weld stuff strongly reminds me of several things mentioned in the Cirillo books.

Both Cirillo's book and Paul Kirchner's book on Cirillo very worth reading and taking notes/lessons from.

Also one of the few sources of incidences that required more than 1 or 2 solid hits from 12 gauge to end fight.

They also mention chronographing cutdown shotguns.

[Bergeron]

Well, this is interesting. Maybe I'm late to the party, but I didn't notice these earlier.

BROWNELLS - BRN-180™ STRIPPED LOWER RECEIVER FORGED (https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/receivers/lower-receivers/brn-180-stripped-lower-receiver-forged-prod130438.aspx)

Integrated PIC mount for a folding buttstock in the lower forging. No need for an adaptor or LAW folder.

I am neck-deep in other projects, but once I work my way back down to hip-deep, I am super interested in a BRN-180 with an ACR brace or stock (depending on the legal environment) topped with a shorty 300 BLK upper.

[spyderco monkey]

This may have been mentioned somewhere is this long thread, I'm still working my way through it, but the Stakeout Squad used cut down M1 Carbines as well as shotguns.

Mentioned short OAL mattered for some of their Stakeout Hide positions, Rhett's Cheek weld stuff strongly reminds me of several things mentioned in the Cirillo books.

Both Cirillo's book and Paul Kirchner's book on Cirillo very worth reading and taking notes/lessons from.

Also one of the few sources of incidences that required more than 1 or 2 solid hits from 12 gauge to end fight.

They also mention chronographing cutdown shotguns.

I remember reading Tales from the Stakeout Squad by Kirchner (along with his fantastic 'deadliest men' series which is beyond entertaining.)

From what I remember, Cirillo was handloading JHP's in .30 carbine, and found that combo to be the most instantaneously effective of any of the weapons used in the stakeout squad, beating out 12 gauge and .223.

Which I have no trouble believing, given how nasty .30C JSP's look; a JHP load would be even more explosively expansive, especially a vintage 'cup n core' non-bonded JHP like they were using then, fired at Candy Shop distances.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdVpVKRPYD0

[HCM]

Does anyone here have experience or info on the PPU .300 BLK 110 grain TXRG all copper HP load ?

Is this a viable alternative to the Barnes ?

https://www.sgammo.com/product/300-aac-blackout-ammo/200-round-lot-300-aac-blackout-110-grain-txrg-sellier-bellot-exergy-am

[OlongJohnson]

No experience with that product.

Based on the color, those bullets look to be closer to 10% zinc than 5%, which would make them technically a brass. Which, if someone was being particularly picky, might cause them to fall under the Federal definition of "armor piercing" if they were intended to be used in a pistol.

Barnes bullets are pure copper.

[Grouse870]

https://aimsurplus.com/foxtrot-mike-fm15-g2-11-5-in-223-5-56-ar-pistol/
I’m curious how well one of these plus a fs1913 brace would work out. Especially since I’ve heard the Brn 180 had had some teething issues. Plus I like the charging handle on this one a bit better.

[jh9]

Does anyone here have experience or info on the PPU .300 BLK 110 grain TXRG all copper HP load ?

Is this a viable alternative to the Barnes ?

https://www.sgammo.com/product/300-aac-blackout-ammo/200-round-lot-300-aac-blackout-110-grain-txrg-sellier-bellot-exergy-am

https://www.sellier-bellot.cz/en/products/rifle-ammunition/rifle-ammunition-with-exergy-blue-bullets/detail/617/

Converted to Freedom Units, it looks like that 2215fps is from a 16" barrel. At least IIRC the threshold everyone wanted from 110gr Barnes was 2300fps from a ~8" barrel in order to get Rifle Ballistics (tm).

So that might be a problem?

[spyderco monkey]

So, on youtube today, and The Algorithm suggested this video to me.

An interesting looks at the 'Urban' take on PDW selection, carry, and employment.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyKDKUny5vY

Whats funny is here I am worrying about my j-frame printing, and this guy is pulling off a shockingly well concealed AIWB Draco.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QW9HxFEVLs4

[Bio]

So, on youtube today, and The Algorithm suggested this video to me.

An interesting looks at the 'Urban' take on PDW selection, carry, and employment.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyKDKUny5vY

Whats funny is here I am worrying about my j-frame printing, and this guy is pulling off a shockingly well concealed AIWB Draco.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QW9HxFEVLs4

Kept his finger off the trigger, emphasized getting training on your weapon, admonished audience to be aware of what's behind their target. I've seen worse.

One can apparently conceal quite a bit when one is build like a fence rail. Losing weight really is the best concealment mod. Sitting is probably awkward, though.

[OlongJohnson]

Whats funny is here I am worrying about my j-frame printing, and this guy is pulling off a shockingly well concealed AIWB Draco.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QW9HxFEVLs4

Greeter, as that guy leaves: "I didn't know we sell Dracos."

[Tensaw]

So, on youtube today, and The Algorithm suggested this video to me.

An interesting looks at the 'Urban' take on PDW selection, carry, and employment.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyKDKUny5vY

Whats funny is here I am worrying about my j-frame printing, and this guy is pulling off a shockingly well concealed AIWB Draco.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QW9HxFEVLs4

Heh, what was the gag between Costa and Haley about stuffing an almost full-sized pistol in a jock strap holster? “You’ve got room for one down there. I don’t!” Things that make you go Hmmmmm,..... :cool:

[El Cid]

I'm digging this! Seems well thought out and keeps everything in place for a wide variety of packs.

https://jerkingthetrigger.com/2022/01/06/lynx-defense-releases-the-policy-a-discreet-pdw-backpack-insert/

https://lynxdefense.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/the-policy.jpg

[GyroF-16]

This does look interesting…

Link to actual product:

https://lynxdefense.com/backpacks/the-policy/

They’re asking $49.99 plus shipping.



I'm digging this! Seems well thought out and keeps everything in place for a wide variety of packs.

https://jerkingthetrigger.com/2022/01/06/lynx-defense-releases-the-policy-a-discreet-pdw-backpack-insert/

https://lynxdefense.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/the-policy.jpg

[fatdog]

So, on youtube today, and The Algorithm suggested this video to me.

An interesting looks at the 'Urban' take on PDW selection, carry, and employment.

Whats funny is here I am worrying about my j-frame printing, and this guy is pulling off a shockingly well concealed AIWB Draco.



The counter example to, "well that gun is too big to appendix carry."

[Bolt_Overide]

Depends on how big you are. I concealed a super shorty and a DE 50 for a week just to prove I could (I was younger and a lot dumber then). There are a lot of problems being gigantic sometimes, hard to find clothes, always accidentally breaking things, bang my head far more than normal people, but one of the benefits is I can damn near appendix a howitzer.

[5pins]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj6al_PV2To

[Wondering Beard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj6al_PV2To

That could be a neat, practical cheekweld pistol for us civvies.

[Corse]

That could be a neat, practical cheekweld pistol for us civvies.

The SBR version is cool. I wonder how much it will be for essentially a flux raider?

[Darth_Uno]

Initial impressions:

Well, none yet. Got Covid right after I got this and it kicked my ass. Then between work and weather haven't shot it yet.

The A3 brace seems to be the most stock-like option I could find. Just from shouldering it around my basement I like it very much. You can see I actually mounted it upside down - that works well for my high cheekbones. It's actually designed to go the other way and clear helmet/coms. There's also a straight option. At any rate I like it very much, and it's quite a bit less than any collapsible option which doesn't fill any niches for me.

The OWL is a hog of a light to mount there. Although I feel OWL's work better on shorter rails, where you don't have all the weight out on the end of a 12+" barrel. I've since replaced it with a TLR-1 HL at 12:00 which seems to be a not perfect but much better solution. It's certainly adequate for any purposes I have for this gun. Since I'm not likely to carry it in a backpack I'm not concerned about accidentally flipping the switches on.

No suppressors in IL which removes some of the practicality of a weapon like this...but that's not really why I got it.

83778

83779

[HeavyDuty]

Initial impressions:

Well, none yet. Got Covid right after I got this and it kicked my ass. Then between work and weather haven't shot it yet.

The A3 brace seems to be the most stock-like option I could find. Just from shouldering it around my basement I like it very much. You can see I actually mounted it upside down - that works well for my high cheekbones. It's actually designed to go the other way and clear helmet/coms. There's also a straight option. At any rate I like it very much, and it's quite a bit less than any collapsible option which doesn't fill any niches for me.

The OWL is a hog of a light to mount there. Although I feel OWL's work better on shorter rails, where you don't have all the weight out on the end of a 12+" barrel. I've since replaced it with a TLR-1 HL at 12:00 which seems to be a not perfect but much better solution. It's certainly adequate for any purposes I have for this gun. Since I'm not likely to carry it in a backpack I'm not concerned about accidentally flipping the switches on.

No suppressors in IL which removes some of the practicality of a weapon like this...but that's not really why I got it.

83778

83779

I just love shit like this.