Let's talk PDW's

[CleverNickname]

Is the folding stock a hard go/no-go item? If not, have you looked at the PDW collapsible stocks available?

Yeah I'd really prefer a folder over a collapsible because the cheek weld on collapsible stocks seems to be worse IMO. Also AR15 collapsible stocks seem to have a longer OAL when collapsed, than an AR15 folding stock when folded. If there's nothing out there now that meets what I want, I'll just build a 6" 300 BLK DI upper and stick with the LRWC UCIW that's currently on the gun. That'd get the gun down to ~22" with the stock collapsed. But it'd be more like 18" with a folding stock.

[RevolverRob]

I'm sure you knew this and please fact check me but I think the canabrake does not have the switchable gas block. It either needs the fake can or a real one to run. Also double check what handgiards can be had. There were some limitations there too when I looked into it..

I think you're mixing up options between the Rattler Canebrake with the Virtus Tac-Ops. Both have the "inert suppressor" on them, but the Canebrake is a Rattler which has an adjustable gas block, the Tac-Ops Virtus is non-adjustable gas block. Then to confuse things more, Sig made the Rattler (and the Canebrake) with a 'Rattler Specific' upper receiver, so only Rattler barrels and Rattler handguards work with the Canebrake.

I'm fine buying just a Canebrake and using the Rattler-specific parts, because I have very little interest in the MCX line outside of this particular weapon.

If I need to step out beyond 300-yards in shooting, I'll move to a 6.5CM.

[shane45]

Damn, I think your right. I hate getting old!

[GJM]

I think might have been asked and answered, but when you are tromping around with a 300BO are you loading supers or subs? Solids or softs?

110 Barnes for anything but practice.

[OlongJohnson]

I've seen advice to clean all the copper fouling out of your bore before changing from jacketed (gilding metal) to Barnes (pure copper) bullets, or you're liable to see excessive copper fouling from the Barnes. Any such issues observed in your case?

I'm wondering if the lower velocity and short barrel of the PDWs takes it out of the realm where this would happen.

[GJM]

Who needs a PDW when you have a Glock and an RMR.


https://youtu.be/yollZf8NlbM

[Trigger]

I’m late to the ammo discussion. These prices really encourage reloading. The Hornady 110 VMax is currently $.25 per bullet. But I just picked up 1000 Speer 125TNT for $150 shipped, or $.15 per bullet (Red River Reloading). Given the price of powder and primers, I can reload this for about $.25 per round. I have lots of 300BLK brass already. Much cheaper than factory at $1 - $1.25 per round.

On the magazine discussion, I really like the Lancers for 300BLK, especially the 20 rounders. I think for a compact SBR/PDW size weapon, the 20 round mag is optimum. I wrap color coded 3M electrical tape around the mag to designate what caliber or rifle it is meant for.

For the suppressor discussion, consider the muzzle device when you are picking a can. Since you will be moving one or two cans among many rifles, you need to be happy with both the can and the brake/mount. I use TBAC cans, and I’m happy with their brakes. I have probably 6 brakes to go with the two QD cans.

Would you believe I ordered from one company which listed the bullets in stock, placed the order and then they canceled my order a day later saying they were out of stock on the Speer 125TNT. So I went to a second company, same bullet, similar price, and had the exact same thing happen. Just not my luck. So ignore my score above for bullets @ $.15 per.

[Corse]

Would you believe I ordered from one company which listed the bullets in stock, placed the order and then they canceled my order a day later saying they were out of stock on the Speer 125TNT. So I went to a second company, same bullet, similar price, and had the exact same thing happen. Just not my luck. So ignore my score above for bullets @ $.15 per.

I have been looking all over for these, trying to replenish my supply.

[HCountyGuy]

Found some Barnes in stock:

https://vizardsgunsandammo.com/barnes-bullets-21548-vor-tx-rifle-300-aac-blackout-110-gr-tac-tx-flat-base-20-bx-10-cs/

[Mike C]

Found some Barnes in stock:

https://vizardsgunsandammo.com/barnes-bullets-21548-vor-tx-rifle-300-aac-blackout-110-gr-tac-tx-flat-base-20-bx-10-cs/

Yikes! I was mad when I was paying 25-26 a box. Good find though.

[EPF]

Yikes! I was mad when I was paying 25-26 a box. Good find though.

Yeah, I feel a bit dumb having learned my lessons during past droughts/panics and stocking up on everything I need, only to decide on an entirely new platform with outrageously expensive hard to find ammo in the middle of the corona apocalypse.

And yes, I bought more from the link :o

[ranger]

I have avoided 300BO for a very long time but this thread is determined to drag me into yet another caliber to load.

I hate you guys - just ordered a PSA complete 300 BO upper, 7.5 inch.

[OlongJohnson]

Now comes the fun part - figuring out how to feed it.

[LittleLebowski]

Natchez has some good stuff in stock.

https://outdoors.natchezss.com/products/ammunition-rifle-ammo-caliber~.300-aac-blackout?cnt=64

[ranger]

Now comes the fun part - figuring out how to feed it.

I started a thread in Ammunition on my new journey to load 300BO. Lee dies have arrived, I have a bunch of 300BO brass on hand (I embrace being a brass chicken), Lil Gun powder for 350 Legend, just ordered Nosler 190 CCs "overruns" on sale at the Nosler Pro Shop. Will pick up some factory 110 Barnes for serious use. Will look for different powder options and even cheaper projectiles like 147 pulls. Will load on my Dillon 550.

[Mike C]

Has anyone shot the Hornady Frontier line 300 B.O.? I just saw that on the link LL posted. I've not seen it until now and have been shooting their 68gr and 75gr stuff in 5.56 and have been happy with the results. Curious as to how it runs and groups.

ranger, Lil' Gun, H110 and CFE BLK all worked well. I got the best velocities with Lil Gun 2130-2150 from 110gr TACTX from a 9" barrel. I thought I could get more but really flattens primers. Some of the more accurate loads were with CFE BLK IIRC. I loaded mostly Hornady subs and Barnes TAC TX 110's. You are going to enjoy loading the 300 B.O. I did. Converting sucks but once most of it is done it's no big deal. I'll look through my notes and see if I can refresh my memory and find anything that may be of help to you.

[Corse]

There are plenty of sources for 300blk brass, no need to convert anymore if you don’t want to. I like the H110 better than Lil’Gun.

[EPF]

Some signatures, a short drive, and a credit card and my Saturday is looking up

52752


One step closer to getting some data for the shooting thread.

[Mike C]

Some signatures, a short drive, and a credit card and my Saturday is looking up

52752


One step closer to getting some data for the shooting thread.

Rob can add #brokeasfuck (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=brokeasfuck) to his list, (yeah I still hate hashtag too but still find myself using it thanks to LL). That's going to be an expensive mouth to feed in the times we find ourselves in. Here's to hoping some cheap Russian 300 B.O. hits the market this year. I hope it proves to be reliable for you. Please let us know how it groups for you. I am especially curious how they hold at 200 with the 110's if you're willing to shoot some of the Tac TX at that distance.

[LittleLebowski]

All of these vertical grip-equipped Sigs are making me ponder trying a more vertical grip for an AR...

[Clusterfrack]

All of these vertical grip-equipped Sigs are making me ponder trying a more vertical grip for an AR...

I've gone the opposite way. All my VFGs are gone, except on one Mk18 that has UV laser and light controls that work best with a VFG as a bandstop. Check out all the top PCC shooters... no VFGs.

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2019/11/16/max-leograndis-dominates-uspsa-pcc-competition/

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/vKhcaJ9ybTg/maxresdefault.jpg

[HCountyGuy]

I've gone the opposite way. All my VFGs are gone, except on one Mk18 that has UV laser and light controls that work best with a VFG as a bandstop. Check out all the top PCC shooters... no VFGs.

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2019/11/16/max-leograndis-dominates-uspsa-pcc-competition/

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/vKhcaJ9ybTg/maxresdefault.jpg


I believe LL was talking about the actual pistol grips being more vertical.



I’ve contemplated putting a Slate Stop on my AR Pistol.

[Clusterfrack]

I believe LL was talking about the actual pistol grips being more vertical.



I’ve contemplated putting a Slate Stop on my AR Pistol.

LOL. That's what I get for drunkposting first thing in the morning. Except I'm not drunk.

[HCountyGuy]

I wish I had seen these (https://www.primaryarms.com/lancer-20rd-smoke-cosmetic-blem-magazine?trk_msg=V8J31UP5DHGKP94AK0TT6LI2G8&trk_contact=3LMOB4NHK40RBGEM6R89MNTHOO&trk_module=arm&trk_sid=F5RDIT4UEGI8FQ15NHV3OSJJR0&utm_source=listrak&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Shop+Now&utm_campaign=Recurring-Automated-Campaign&utm_content=Recurring-Automated-Campaign) before ordering the full-price ones.

Here’s to further enabling though.

Maybe we need a 300BLK-centric/enabling topic...

[WobblyPossum]

All of these vertical grip-equipped Sigs are making me ponder trying a more vertical grip for an AR...

Do it. I really like the BCM Gunfighter Mod 3: good texture, well done storage compartment, thicker and wider than an A2 grip so it fits my hand better, covers the gap behind the trigger guard. It’s so much more comfortable for my wrist than the A2 grip angle, especially when standing in a “patrol ready” or carrying the rifle for any period of time.

[EPF]

That's going to be an expensive mouth to feed in the times we find ourselves in. Here's to hoping some cheap Russian 300 B.O. hits the market this year. I hope it proves to be reliable for you. Please let us know how it groups for you. I am especially curious how they hold at 200 with the 110's if you're willing to shoot some of the Tac TX at that distance.

I would love to shoot it at 200, but reliable access to a range like that around here is a challenge when things are normal. With all the craziness this place is locked down tighter than the preachers daughter.

Some of the BS logic I used on myself earlier in the thread to justify the HK caused me to set up some private training for the wife and I locally this week on private property. She’s amenable to some refresher training under the current world circumstances, and lord knows I can always use a professional tune up. I also find the wife learns better from someone not me. 😀

I hope to run it enough to get a baseline reliability check and some data on how she shoots it compared to the .556. If longer range is an option I will certainly try for that. I’m not scared to shoot all the ammo! If you lived close and had a private range I’d suggest we blast up the kids college fund! 😎

[RevolverRob]

With all the craziness this place is locked down tighter than the preachers daughter.

We uhh...hung around different preacher's daughters.


Some of the BS logic I used on myself earlier in the thread to justify the HK caused me to set up some private training for the wife and I locally this week on private property. She’s amenable to some refresher training under the current world circumstances, and lord knows I can always use a professional tune up. I also find the wife learns better from someone not me. 😀

I hope to run it enough to get a baseline reliability check and some data on how she shoots it compared to the .556. If longer range is an option I will certainly try for that. I’m not scared to shoot all the ammo! If you lived close and had a private range I’d suggest we blast up the kids college fund! 😎

What are you running for sights/optics?

[hiro]

Except I'm not drunk.

You obviously aren't taking your quarantine very seriously

[Xhado]

https://i.imgflip.com/3y40nt.jpg (https://imgflip.com/i/3y40nt)

[EPF]

What are you running for sights/optics?

I’m going to put the T1 from my HK on it for now since I have a spare Larue absolute mount somewhere but I prefer lower 1/3 so it won’t be long term. I like backup irons but I haven’t decided on which ones until I figure out the light option.

I can’t say for sure what I will end up with dot wise as I’ve been focused on BJJ and pistols for about the last 5 years and I haven’t fiddled with the long guns much. I’m ordering some T2s, micro 3x magnifiers, and a new upper to update and take advantage of the newer tech. I really want the newer EOtechs to work.

Side note: I believe it was SLG who once said here that one should decide if your carbine use was “big pistol” or “little rifle” and then train and equip accordingly. In my situation I fall decidedly in the big pistol camp.

[bruceride]

Do it. I really like the BCM Gunfighter Mod 3: good texture, well done storage compartment, thicker and wider than an A2 grip so it fits my hand better, covers the gap behind the trigger guard. It’s so much more comfortable for my wrist than the A2 grip angle, especially when standing in a “patrol ready” or carrying the rifle for any period of time.

Magpul K2 lives on my pistols. I'm digging the more vertical grip with the shorter brace...

[HeavyDuty]

Magpul K2 lives on my pistols. I'm digging the more vertical grip with the shorter brace...

I was going to post the same thing. I’m liking their K and K2 on shorter stocks and braces.

[Dave Williams]

I've gone the opposite way. All my VFGs are gone, except on one Mk18 that has UV laser and light controls that work best with a VFG as a bandstop. Check out all the top PCC shooters... no VFGs.

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2019/11/16/max-leograndis-dominates-uspsa-pcc-competition/

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/vKhcaJ9ybTg/maxresdefault.jpg

Possibly a stupid question.....why does he have two RDS? Wouldn't magnified on top, and RDS offset make more sense?

[Default.mp3]

Possibly a stupid question.....why does he have two RDS? Wouldn't magnified on top, and RDS offset make more sense? This is for competition, so offset RDS is used for shots around barricades, rather than being a backup sight.

[OlongJohnson]

What, if anything, do we like for hand stops/indexing devices so our dumb asses don't let our hands sneak off the front of a really short handguard on our PDWs? I've never really thought about them until thinking about a 7-in. handguard.

When it comes to furniture, I tend to baseline by seeing what Magpul does. MAG608 looks pretty minimalist and seems like it should work well.

[El Cid]

What, if anything, do we like for hand stops/indexing devices so our dumb asses don't let our hands sneak off the front of a really short handguard on our PDWs? I've never really thought about them until thinking about a 7-in. handguard.

When it comes to furniture, I tend to baseline by seeing what Magpul does. MAG608 looks pretty minimalist and seems like it should work well.

I’m a short VFG fan. I use it as more of a hand wedge than a grip. I prefer something that has a flat surface on the front so I can jam the weapon against a wall, barricade, vehicle, etc. my favorite to date is the Anchor / LDAG from Railscales. For extra safety on my 300BLK (8.5” bbl and 7” handguard) I have a finger stop from Arisaka Defense.

The AR or PDW weapons that are “handguns” can’t have a VFG so the user would need an angled foregrip and/or finger stop. I find that stupid but so are many of our gun laws.

[entropy]

I’m using a little stop from Black Slate Industries.

[mmc45414]

What, if anything, do we like for hand stops/indexing devices so our dumb asses don't let our hands sneak off the front of a really short handguard on our PDWs? I've never really thought about them until thinking about a 7-in. handguard.

When it comes to furniture, I tend to baseline by seeing what Magpul does. MAG608 looks pretty minimalist and seems like it should work well.

I have been using the MAG608 backwards.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200425/9b7d3726ee56bcd6e811179638ee2195.jpg

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[YVK]

Possibly a stupid question.....why does he have two RDS? Wouldn't magnified on top, and RDS offset make more sense?

In PCC they don't use magnified simply because range and target difficulty is not there (I don't even know if magnified is ok by the rules).

Second optic is for hard support side leans when it is really tough to keep the carbine vertically. This is all in the name of speed, although it is not uniformally agreed that second RDS is really better for that.

[CleverNickname]

In PCC they don't use magnified simply because range and target difficulty is not there (I don't even know if magnified is ok by the rules).
It's allowed, just pointless (as you indicated.) Other than the rare PCC-only match, the same targets will have to be shot by competitors shooting pistols (many with iron sights), so there's not going to be any targets where a magnified optic would be needed.

[OlongJohnson]

The mailman just delivered an SBA3.

https://www.sb-tactical.com/product/sba3/

"Includes 7075 mil-spec carbine receiver extension"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk

I couldn't help noticing severe porosity in the metal, both in the forward end of the adjustment notch boss and all along the exposed part of the tube. Deep canyons, visually obvious, and lots of them, transverse to the long axis of the tube, which means any of them is very likely to become a fracture initiation site when bending load is applied. The whole thing could just snap into two pieces without warning. I've seen some seriously f'ed up defects in bar stock before, but I can't even figure out what went wrong with this material or its processing. Whatever the cause, this part is deep in the DO NOT USE category.

After thinking about it for about 15 seconds, I decided that if the supply channel that put this piece of recycling in my bin is capable of delivering the part I got, I don't want another part from that channel. Will use another Colt RE (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?40237-Colt-receiver-extensions-buffer-tubes-forged-impact-extruded-and-rolled-threads) for this pistol, and chaperone a date between my Sawzall and the SB Tactical tube before it goes away. Or maybe chaperone a date between my Sawzall and the SB Tactical tube before I keep it as a hall of shame example.

[Grey]

Why haven't folks bought the B&T 300 yet? Forget this Sig MIM garbage and go Swiss.

[Mike C]

Why haven't folks bought the B&T 300 yet? Forget this Sig MIM garbage and go Swiss.

Haha thats what I'm looking at now. I just don't know if the juice is worth the squeeze again with 300 B.O. I'm still digging my APC and fuck all if I didn't turn around and use the money received selling the TP9 for a damn Staccato C Duo because I am an idiot.

[Clusterfrack]

Possibly a stupid question.....why does he have two RDS? Wouldn't magnified on top, and RDS offset make more sense?


This is for competition, so offset RDS is used for shots around barricades, rather than being a backup sight.


In PCC they don't use magnified simply because range and target difficulty is not there (I don't even know if magnified is ok by the rules).

Second optic is for hard support side leans when it is really tough to keep the carbine vertically. This is all in the name of speed, although it is not uniformally agreed that second RDS is really better for that.

Sorry Dave Williams, I missed your question. Yes, as my PFriends already responded, no one uses magnified optics in PCC because the target difficulty / range doesn't make it worthwhile. This is the main reason that PCC in USPSA is completely uninteresting to me. If dedicated PCC stages included targets far enough away to justify a 1-4 or 1-6x optic with a BDC reticle, that would suggest a real high-level carbine shooting challenge. As it is, PCC is mostly 3-gun style hosing, but with hit factor scoring. Good for Insta, but not worth my time and money.

[shane45]

Reciprocating charging handle in a small package is a turn off

[rob_s]

What, if anything, do we like for hand stops/indexing devices so our dumb asses don't let our hands sneak off the front of a really short handguard on our PDWs? I've never really thought about them until thinking about a 7-in. handguard.

When it comes to furniture, I tend to baseline by seeing what Magpul does. MAG608 looks pretty minimalist and seems like it should work well.

I put one of these on my PCC (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?37271-quickest-cheapest-route-to-USPSA-PCC-from-where-I-am-now&p=995309&viewfull=1#post995309)and without having shot with it yet I like that it gives me something to pull against and keep my fingers safe when shooting without the can.
https://magpul.com/m-lok-handstop-kit.html?mp_global_color=118

[RevolverRob]

Why haven't folks bought the B&T 300 yet? Forget this Sig MIM garbage and go Swiss.

Honestly?

Too big, too proprietary, reciprocating charging handle, non-AR trigger parts.

While the Rattler has proprietary parts, at least you have two different length handguards and in theory if Sig wants to - different barrel lengths. As much as I hate the AR-style charging handle - it's at least something I'm trained on. Rattler uses an MCX trigger which is very if not virtually identical to an AR trigger. Rattler uses standard AR15 grips. Rattler is 5.7 pounds and 16" folded up.

The B&T is 21" before the brace and weighs 7 pounds before the brace. It also uses another one of B&T's ridiculous tri-lugs on the barrel. I really think B&T is missing the boat there, we want direct thread here in the U.S. of A. B&T - Your tri-lugs are dumb. Molded-in grip, means, you're waiting for the PRO or a pro-receiver for an extra 300 bucks to get an AR grip.

Then we're looking at a $5-700 price difference. It also pains me to say it but...Sig isn't going anywhere. By securing the MSH contract, MIL overseas and domestic contracts for the MCX (including the Rattler), and a substantial retail consumer following - Sig Sauer will be around. B&T has been around is likely to stay around, but they'll have to increase in size 50x to get close to Sig-sized. The end result is, I'm willing to bet I can get Rattler-specific parts for the next 15-20 years and if the MCX continues to prove viable, parts will be as available as an AR15 in the future.

If I'm going to take a flyer on a 'PDW' - it's coming from a company that I suspect will be present in 30-years. So, HK, Sig, FN, CZ and....uhh that's pretty much it. I guess Beretta if they come out with something in that category. An AR15-derived PDW is a safe bet, since AR15 is kind of like 1911 - it's just a set of blueprints and base that everyone modifies. Some basic skills are all it takes to build/repair the basic parts of an AR15.

[entropy]

Many days and pages late to this one. Originally put together a number of years back when I was traveling frequently to visit my ailing Mother. Lots of late nights traveling between states, 11pm hotel check-ins etc. Built on an “RGuns” pistol lower and an Andro Corp. 8” .300 upper. The original configuration was a quad rail with a Thordsen cheek rest. Carried it in a small linen/lime green trim Philz violin case. A couple of airline carry-on tags from work completed the subterfuge. It never got a second look, although a night clerk happened to play the violin and I needed to make up a quick excuse once. Switched hotels thereafter.

Over the years it’s changed a bit. I always thought the quad rail bulky. Installed a MI slim hand guard and a MI blast can. Added the brace and grip, along with Slate Black handstop and trim. I also have a Vortex 3x magnifier that clamps behind the Holosun red dot if I want to shoot farther out.

52924


Developed loads are the Barnes 110gr with H110 and bulk Remington 165gr PSPCL and A1680 for plinkers.

52927

52925


Along with the .300, I picked up a PSA “Krink thing” on a whim a few months back. A bit under 1K thru it at this point. Not even a burble. Runs like a champ. Maybe a bit outside of the “PDW” format, but it’s ridden in the truck a few times on excursions north. It’s handy.

52926

[GJM]

Sorry Dave Williams, I missed your question. Yes, as my PFriends already responded, no one uses magnified optics in PCC because the target difficulty / range doesn't make it worthwhile. This is the main reason that PCC in USPSA is completely uninteresting to me. If dedicated PCC stages included targets far enough away to justify a 1-4 or 1-6x optic with a BDC reticle, that would suggest a real high-level carbine shooting challenge. As it is, PCC is mostly 3-gun style hosing, but with hit factor scoring. Good for Insta, but not worth my time and money.

It certainly isn’t rifle distance challenging, but for how a carbine would likely be deployed in a civilian defense scenario, USPSA PCC is pretty good practice.

[Caballoflaco]

Developed loads are the Barnes 110gr with H110 and bulk Remington 165gr PSPCL and A1680 for plinkers.

52927


Before my brain understood the words you wrote I thought your Barnes rounds were pulled surplus m2 ball, which would be a horrible, terrible and illegal idea to use in a pistol.

In a 16 inch barrel rifle or properly licensed sbr it might be useful if one needed to make holes in things and then also make holes in the things on the other side of the things you just made holes in.

[MistWolf]

...Carried it in a small linen/lime green trim Philz violin case. A couple of airline carry-on tags from work completed the subterfuge. It never got a second look, although a night clerk happened to play the violin and I needed to make up a quick excuse once...

"Oh, you play the violin?"
"No. It's for my niece."

...or if you're feeling especially rakish-
"Naw, it's my Chicago Typewriter." Huge "I'm pulling your leg" wink and grin

[Mike C]

I'd still take the B&T over the Sig despite its flaws because I am still not quite off the Sig hate train. They drop support without notice, QC blows, they don't deliver on half of what they say they will in addition to flat out making promises they know they can't keep or just flat out don't intend to, (that's just scratching the surface, and I'm not even talking about the giant P320 debacle).


Reciprocating charging handle in a small package is a turn off

Thanks for reminding me how much I hate reciprocating charging handles. You just helped me save a ton of money.

[El Cid]

Honestly?

Too big, too proprietary, reciprocating charging handle, non-AR trigger parts.

While the Rattler has proprietary parts, at least you have two different length handguards and in theory if Sig wants to - different barrel lengths. As much as I hate the AR-style charging handle - it's at least something I'm trained on. Rattler uses an MCX trigger which is very if not virtually identical to an AR trigger. Rattler uses standard AR15 grips. Rattler is 5.7 pounds and 16" folded up.

The B&T is 21" before the brace and weighs 7 pounds before the brace. It also uses another one of B&T's ridiculous tri-lugs on the barrel. I really think B&T is missing the boat there, we want direct thread here in the U.S. of A. B&T - Your tri-lugs are dumb. Molded-in grip, means, you're waiting for the PRO or a pro-receiver for an extra 300 bucks to get an AR grip.

Then we're looking at a $5-700 price difference. It also pains me to say it but...Sig isn't going anywhere. By securing the MSH contract, MIL overseas and domestic contracts for the MCX (including the Rattler), and a substantial retail consumer following - Sig Sauer will be around. B&T has been around is likely to stay around, but they'll have to increase in size 50x to get close to Sig-sized. The end result is, I'm willing to bet I can get Rattler-specific parts for the next 15-20 years and if the MCX continues to prove viable, parts will be as available as an AR15 in the future.

If I'm going to take a flyer on a 'PDW' - it's coming from a company that I suspect will be present in 30-years. So, HK, Sig, FN, CZ and....uhh that's pretty much it. I guess Beretta if they come out with something in that category. An AR15-derived PDW is a safe bet, since AR15 is kind of like 1911 - it's just a set of blueprints and base that everyone modifies. Some basic skills are all it takes to build/repair the basic parts of an AR15.

Well tri lug bbls are IME ideal for pistol caliber carbines and SMG’s. Fast attach and removal, but more importantly won’t back off the way threaded on cans do. For rifle calibers you’re right though... it doesn’t work. I think Silencerco has a video demonstrating what happens.

As far as the reciprocating CH and limited ability to swap AR stuff, I’m hopeful B&T comes out with a PRO version of their rifles. If they follow the pattern of the APC9 then I’d be all over an 8” bbl APC300.



Before my brain understood the words you wrote I thought your Barnes rounds were pulled surplus m2 ball, which would be a horrible, terrible and illegal idea to use in a pistol.


Help me out here. What would be illegal? Not being a smart ass. Genuinely curious.

[El Cid]

I think if B&T quits half-assin the lower thing and goes all AR grips across the board along with non-recip or at least folding charging handle, and eliminates the 3-lug - they’d be nigh perfect.

Still going to have an APC45 or a GHM45 sooner than later. Rattler will come first.



M2 ball is an armor piercing round. It’s my understanding (and I could be wrong) that manufacturing AP pistol ammo is illegal if you do not have the proper FFL (regardless of if you intend to sell it). You can manufacture your own AP rifle ammunition and purchase rifle AP ammo, but not pistol AP ammo.

By loading AP rifle bullets into casings you intend to fire through a pistol - you can run afoul of the law (see 5.56 Greentip problems).

I just looked and the rifle caliber weapons from B&T have flash hiders. The tri lug is on the pistol caliber stuff. Why do you prefer threads? I’ve had cans start to walk off with threaded interfaces. The tri lug on my APC9 is perfect for me as I don’t have to worry about the can coming loose.

Interesting. I thought a “handgun” shots what it shoots. Pretty much most rifle caliber ammo is AP. Otherwise I’d never be able to shoot XM193 in an AR pistol.

[GJM]

I am looking at putting a Cherry Bomb/ Whistle Tip on my Rattler and fitting my Omega with the Q Plan B interface.

I am no Sig fan boy, but the Rattler is a complete package, that so far works. I expect to carry it a lot and shoot it little. I am not interested in cobbling together something similar with bits and pieces.

[Clusterfrack]

You should’ve gone with the Chode. Just because of the name.


https://www.americanprecisionarms.com/products/the-c-h-o-d-e

[EPF]

After a quick session with the Rattler, it’s a winner for me. It does exactly what I want a PDW to do (a much more well defined role because of this thread). I’m surprised at how much I like it and may even consider adding another upper in the future. The 11.5 inch .556 upper would add a lot of versatility for someone not heavily into ARs already, but the “cane break” or another LVAW type upper is very interesting. Ignoring the cost and scarcity of ammo, as well as the NFA headache, A folding, integrally suppressed, still very short gun that has great terminal ballistics to 150y or can be safely quiet seems like it checks a lot of the blocks for an all around civilian long arm.

[Clay1]

not sure if this was mentioned in this thread, but found this in my mailbox this morning about the Daniel Defense PDW: https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2020/4/22/range-tested-daniel-defense-ddm4-pdw/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=insider&utm_campaign=0420

[rob_s]

Am I to understand that one can purchase a Rattler upper kit that drops in to a standard AR lower (assuming it’s and SBR lower) and Includes some sort of plug because the carrier doesn’t need to reciprocate into the buffer tube? Which, then, also means one can install a LAW folder and fire with stock folded?

[EPF]

Am I to understand that one can purchase a Rattler upper kit that drops in to a standard AR lower (assuming it’s and SBR lower) and Includes some sort of plug because the carrier doesn’t need to reciprocate into the buffer tube? Which, then, also means one can install a LAW folder and fire with stock folded?

Yes the kit drops in to a standard lower. I can’t say for sure if a law folder would work. Is your goal to get a specific AR stock rather than use one of the MCX options? Because it looks like there are some other adapters available

https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/stock-parts/stock-hardware/adapter/ar-15-mcx-picatinny-stock-adapters-prod123902.aspx

[TGS]

I'd still take the B&T over the Sig despite its flaws because I am still not quite off the Sig hate train. They drop support without notice, QC blows, they don't deliver on half of what they say they will in addition to flat out making promises they know they can't keep or just flat out don't intend to, (that's just scratching the surface, and I'm not even talking about the giant P320 debacle).


It's been what....2 years since ICE adopted the MPX? Still vaporware, they have yet to see them.

Sort of a low-profile tacit admission that the gun isn't ready for duty use, regardless of the rave reviews by civilian shooters.

"Better to let everyone think you're an idiot instead of open your mouth and remove all doubt" sort of situation on SIGs end, is my impression.

With that said the military SOF variant of the Rattler (LVAW) has been in use since 2014 and is still not terribly common to see overseas, regardless of the rave reviews by civilian shooters. That's a little telling to me as well.

[SouthNarc]

With that said the military SOF variant of the Rattler (LVAW) has been in use since 2014 and is still not terribly common to see overseas, regardless of the rave reviews by civilian shooters. That's a little telling to me as well.

Can't speak to US SOF units but the small contingent of Brits that use them in their intended role are quite happy with them. I know of at least 4 Rattlers under direct supervision of the best man at my second wedding. Prolific....no. In use? Most assuredly.

[SouthNarc]

I think George's statement about them is most succinct. Carried a lot...shot very little much like a Ti J frame. It's a specialty piece for a particular niche'. That being said, I don't think the Rattler is nearly as bad to shoot without the can based on the feedback of George and EPF. Maybe more shootable recreationally then that little ti wheelgun.

[TGS]

Can't speak to US SOF units but the small contingent of Brits that use them in their intended role are quite happy with them. I know of at least 4 Rattlers under direct supervision of the best man at my second wedding. Prolific....no. In use? Most assuredly.

I'm curious, 300 or 5.56? For some reason I thought they were using 5.56 after T&Eing the 300. :confused:

It could totally be a logistical reason why the LVAW isn't in more widespread use. It's just surprising to me that with it being toted on gun forums as the solution to every problem under the sun that it isn't more widespread after at least 6 years of use.

[shane45]

If CZ would just offer the Bren 2 in 300blk id probably have to pick one up. But for now I think Im just going to add the LAW to my Mk18 to make it a little more transport friendly.

[SouthNarc]

I'm curious, 300 or 5.56? For some reason I thought they were using 5.56 after T&Eing the 300. :confused:

It could totally be a logistical reason why the LVAW isn't in more widespread use. It's just surprising to me that with it being toted on gun forums as the solution to every problem under the sun that it isn't more widespread after at least 6 years of use.


The guys I'm talking about have gone over to 300 for pretty much everything urban.

[EPF]

I posted a vid of my wife trying the rattler in the PDW shooting thread if anyone is interested in how difficult it is. By the standard of anyone who has ever even heard of PF, she is a complete novice. She was able to reasonably manage it and “enjoyed “ it enough to be looking for another mag after.

I love my Ti 340pd for its purpose and carry it often. I wouldn’t even ask her to try that one :). But I do think it’s the best analogy.

[Corse]

The guys I'm talking about have gone over to 300 for pretty much everything urban.

Is there any info on ammunition and mags that they use or have found acceptable for use?

[rob_s]

Yes the kit drops in to a standard lower. I can’t say for sure if a law folder would work. Is your goal to get a specific AR stock rather than use one of the MCX options? Because it looks like there are some other adapters available

https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/stock-parts/stock-hardware/adapter/ar-15-mcx-picatinny-stock-adapters-prod123902.aspx

I don't know that I would care too much. Goal would basically be to utilize one of my existing SBR lowers rather than pistolizing something to get an ability to fire with stock folded.

which stock I used wouldn't matter much I don't think.

[RevolverRob]

Yes the kit drops in to a standard lower. I can’t say for sure if a law folder would work. Is your goal to get a specific AR stock rather than use one of the MCX options? Because it looks like there are some other adapters available

https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/stock-parts/stock-hardware/adapter/ar-15-mcx-picatinny-stock-adapters-prod123902.aspx

Dude that's awesome.

I've been thinking I wanted to turn one of my lowers into a BRN-180 for funsies and not wait on Brownells to get their lowers in. That would work great for precisely that. NOW...if Brownells will release a .300BLK 180-upper. That would be awesome.

___

FWIW - I'm going all in on .300BLK. I waited long enough and got rid of all of my 5.56 and 7.62 NATO guns that I no longer have anything in either caliber. Meaning I can move on to .300BLK for short to medium range and 6.5CM for long range stuff.

[EPF]

I don't know that I would care too much. Goal would basically be to utilize one of my existing SBR lowers rather than pistolizing something to get an ability to fire with stock folded.

which stock I used wouldn't matter much I don't think.

The kit would work for an SBR lower and allow for any standard MCX stock. The only issue might be that SBR requires a length on the paperwork that the 5.5 rattler might not meet. But I’m no NFA lawyer so who knows. I’m almost sorry I mentioned that part because some NFA dorks will show up and argue about letters for two pages :)

[LittleLebowski]

I’d be very interested in a short BRN-180 in .300BO.

[RevolverRob]

I’d be very interested in a short BRN-180 in .300BO.

Right?

A BRN-180 10.5" in .300BO with a side-folding brace or SBR'ed with a side folding stock would be pretty awesome overall.

That said, I'm thinking of a 16" version with a stock and LPVO as hunting gun. With the stock folded it would make an easy carrying piece for dudes like me who are 5'7" on a good day.

[CleverNickname]

The kit would work for an SBR lower and allow for any standard MCX stock. The only issue might be that SBR requires a length on the paperwork that the 5.5 rattler might not meet. But I’m no NFA lawyer so who knows. I’m almost sorry I mentioned that part because some NFA dorks will show up and argue about letters for two pages :)

NFA dork checking in...

The OAL, barrel length and caliber listed on an SBR form 1 or form 4 in no way limits making any future changes to the OAL, barrel length or caliber. An SBR is an SBR is an SBR. The only thing that the ATF requests (not even requires) is that if it's a permanent change (and they do not define "permanent") then they want the owner to send in a letter to the NFA branch specifying what the permanent changes are.

[rob_s]

The kit would work for an SBR lower and allow for any standard MCX stock. The only issue might be that SBR requires a length on the paperwork that the 5.5 rattler might not meet. But I’m no NFA lawyer so who knows. I’m almost sorry I mentioned that part because some NFA dorks will show up and argue about letters for two pages :)

I think my paperwork is old enough to say "multi" or whatever was in-vogue 10 or so years ago :p

wait, maybe that's caliber... shit.

[OlongJohnson]

I’d be very interested in a short BRN-180 in .300BO.

As an advertising client, can you lobby with them to get this done? I'd be all over an 8-in. barrel. I'd go with that over a LAW folder and the pistol setup I'm putting together.

[GJM]

It's been what....2 years since ICE adopted the MPX? Still vaporware, they have yet to see them.

Sort of a low-profile tacit admission that the gun isn't ready for duty use, regardless of the rave reviews by civilian shooters.

"Better to let everyone think you're an idiot instead of open your mouth and remove all doubt" sort of situation on SIGs end, is my impression.

With that said the military SOF variant of the Rattler (LVAW) has been in use since 2014 and is still not terribly common to see overseas, regardless of the rave reviews by civilian shooters. That's a little telling to me as well.

I currently own one MPX, and previously owned two more. They are a delight to shoot in USPSA, because of how soft they shoot with their gas system, but I would never trust one for anything serious. That view is widely held by people with experience shooting them high round counts in competition.

[RevolverRob]

I think my paperwork is old enough to say "multi" or whatever was in-vogue 10 or so years ago :p

wait, maybe that's caliber... shit.

NFA stuff is more complicated. But if you don't know what the paperwork says, I can pretty much guarantee the ATF doesn't know either...

[RevolverRob]

As an advertising client, can you lobby with them to get this done? I'd be all over an 8-in. barrel. I'd go with that over a LAW folder and the pistol setup I'm putting together.

I just harassed Brownells on IG about this.

Here's a post yesterday from someone showing off the BRN-180. Perfect place to say, "Hey we want a .300BO!"

B_gYfTcJG1S

[rob_s]

The kit would work for an SBR lower and allow for any standard MCX stock.

I see now. The plug looks like it adds a picatinny rail section and then you clamp whatever stock/brace you want as the case may be. I like that it appears to also have a QD socket in there.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/DSC_1435.jpg

[LittleLebowski]

Right?

A BRN-180 10.5" in .300BO with a side-folding brace or SBR'ed with a side folding stock would be pretty awesome overall.

That said, I'm thinking of a 16" version with a stock and LPVO as hunting gun. With the stock folded it would make an easy carrying piece for dudes like me who are 5'7" on a good day.

Too long, 8.5” is all .300BO needs.

[vandal]

It also adds a raised portion to support the springs cup. And yes that's a QD socket.


I see now. The plug looks like it adds a picatinny rail section and then you clamp whatever stock/brace you want as the case may be. I like that it appears to also have a QD socket in there.

[rob_s]

I see now. The plug looks like it adds a picatinny rail section and then you clamp whatever stock/brace you want as the case may be. I like that it appears to also have a QD socket in there.

Looks like the kit includes a screw-in piece to install the standard receiver extension?

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[Joe in PNG]

Brownells also has BRN-180 lowers (https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/receivers/lower-receivers/brn-180-stripped-lower-receiver-forged-prod130438.aspx?cm_sp=Landing+Links-_-Landing+Page-_-Great_AR_Lower_Receivers&avs%7cManufacturer_1=brownells) with the pic rail on the back- for pre-order, that is.

[HCountyGuy]

Anyone have experience with both the SB Tactical PDW brace and the Maxim Defense? I know the Maxim collapses and expands more, has a proprietary buffer and spring and costs a bit more.

[GJM]

What is the advantage of a non Sig lower for the Rattler?

[ssb]

I allowed myself to be dragged down this rabbit hole: I bought a .300BLK 8" barrel.

My thought is that it's very unlikely the weapon will see suppressed use anytime soon, and that it's also going to be a purpose-built 110gr Barnes/Hornady launcher. With that in mind, what are the thoughts on muzzle devices here? Does a linear compensator make sense? I have no idea what the blast will be like.

[El Cid]

I allowed myself to be dragged down this rabbit hole: I bought a .300BLK 8" barrel.

My thought is that it's very unlikely the weapon will see suppressed use anytime soon, and that it's also going to be a purpose-built 110gr Barnes/Hornady launcher. With that in mind, what are the thoughts on muzzle devices here? Does a linear compensator make sense? I have no idea what the blast will be like.

If we got you this far by reading this thread... just get a Cherry Bomb muzzle device for your inevitable suppressor. Lol!

[GJM]

FIFY


If we got you this far by reading this thread... just get a Cherry Bomb muzzle device for your inevitable suppressor and a Whistle Tip to protect your ears in the mean time. Lol!

[rob_s]

What is the advantage of a non Sig lower for the Rattler?

I posted it above, but already having a non-Sig SBR lower is the primary advantage for me.

[EPF]

With that said the military SOF variant of the Rattler (LVAW) has been in use since 2014 and is still not terribly common to see overseas, regardless of the rave reviews by civilian shooters. That's a little telling to me as well.

I realize this was just and offhand remark, But I think it’s an interesting and potentially valid point. I generally don’t care about or choose my personal equipment because of who is or isn’t using it, but I think we all agree that organizational feedback provides a lot of info about reliability and longevity.

So I was intrigued by the idea that there may be an issue with the guns and therefore the end-users aren’t really using them. Given the copious amount of free time I have these days, and the fact that my TV is dominated by family fare, I decided to look into it last night.

This site is really the only social media I participate in, but after a bit of googling there seems to be quite a bit of evidence of LVAW usage on the net, at least as much as there is from GWOT of the things it was designed to replace, the MP7, MP5K, MP5SD, etc. It was never intended to replace the 416 (but I did learn that there is a replacement competition underway or maybe already completed) Here are some relatively recent pics from Afghanistan and Syria respectively. There are lots more but we aren’t “Airsoft pistol forum” :)

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I feel more confident now that there aren’t major issues with the gun. I’m not sure whether to thank or curse TGS for sending me down a rabbit hole into the heart-of-internet-darkness where kids sit in their basement and scrutinize pictures to see what kind of shoelaces Mega Force is using :)

[Xhado]

Terrible trigger takes the TP9 off the table. It probably works well in full auto but terrible in semi.

here's hoping that the Agency trigger fixes it.

This video has a good comparison between the TP9 and the MPX using HF.


https://youtu.be/taBJ017aqjE

[TGS]

For anyone who has shot the TP9 and the PS90, are they similar triggers?

What a let down. Between that review and the feedback from Mike C and GJM, it's obvious why the gun never made it anywhere. Imagine if they were to redesign it with a conventional trigger from the APC or GHM....

[GJM]

Terrible trigger takes the TP9 off the table. It probably works well in full auto but terrible in semi.

here's hoping that the Agency trigger fixes it.

This video has a good comparison between the TP9 and the MPX using HF.


https://youtu.be/taBJ017aqjE

Sure wish someone posted this video before I bought the TP9!

[Mike C]

For anyone who has shot the TP9 and the PS90, are they similar triggers?

What a let down. Between that review and the feedback from Mike C and GJM, it's obvious why the gun never made it anywhere. Imagine if they were to redesign it with a conventional trigger from the APC or GHM....

I too feel let down. FWIW I have shot both a P90 in Poland with some friends while visiting, a few PS90's here in the US and now the TP9. Having done so I would say the following: the FN offering is a mushy long trigger with excessive pretravel and a rolling break, (at least the 4 different samples I've shot) the TP9 was Glockish but with pretravel under heavy spring tension and an excessive wall that felt every bit of 11-12lbs. I am a fan of neither and while I've no doubts that both can be shot well given dedication neither offer up enough advantages over something like a Sig Rattler, (if it works) or even an AR with Law folder unless one is placing heavy value on capacity and size alone. It was obvious why the gun never went anywhere within the first 50 rounds to me, more so as I fired the next 150 or so rounds. The TP9 IMHO isn't even worth the time of day.

Even if the TP9 had a trigger like the APC9 I don't know if the juice would still be worth the squeeze. It is like shooting a pistol with the disadvantage of being overly large as concealment is more difficult but it doesnt handle significantly better than a RDS equipped pistol. GJM as usual is spot on. Now because I'm a glutton for punishment I really would like to get my hands on a Rattler and try one. I don't know I trust Sig at all still despite some seriously bad ass innovation. The APC on the other hand continues to impress. When I wipe it down you can barely tell it's been shot. Accuracy is good to 150 which is the furthest I've shot it to which I'll admit is quite far and outside the envelope of what I was really looking at. I am starting to think that a Rattler in 300 B.O. would really kill everything I'm looking for in one fell swoop.

PDW, light hunting for Bambi, (since shots where I'm at rarely crest 70 yards), shooting tusked pests, woods gun, light fun suppressed with subs. Fuck, I think I just talked myself into one.

[Sig_Fiend]

For anyone who has shot the TP9 and the PS90, are they similar triggers?

What a let down. Between that review and the feedback from Mike C and GJM, it's obvious why the gun never made it anywhere. Imagine if they were to redesign it with a conventional trigger from the APC or GHM....

It's been a few years but, I've fired an MP9 before. I remember it being every bit the "staple gun" some might think of it as. It's unfortunate, because I really wanted to like it. The manual of arms is just a bit too odd as well.

Not a terrible gun, but for the price and plentiful options these days, not worth it IMO. If I'm going to spend at or near $2k, it's gonna have to be something like a Dakota D54, HK SP5, pimped out GHM9, etc.

[revolvergeek]

You don't have to drink shitty whisky, just switch from scotch to bourbon.

Even cheap bourbon is still delicious. ;)

Wonderful inexpensive Rye whiskey options out there also. I don't know much about PDWs but I do know Rye... :cool:

[flyrodr]

Well, @GJW "made me do it . . ." (Not really, but his experiences and advice were of great help)

My LGS had a B&T APC9 Pro in stock, w/o a brace. And a APC45 with the brace. I asked them if I bought the APC9, they'd make me a deal, including moving the brace over to the 9. Oh, and adding the last T2 they had, a display model. It took me longer to do the paperwork than it did for them to put everything together. First range visit will wait until Saturday.

I figured I'd go with the 9 simply because I'll shoot it more than one in .300 BLK, although maybe later . . .

Dug through the various daypacks in the back room closet, and found a Lowe Pro (designed as a camera pack) that appears to work well. Clearly doesn't look "tactical", it's lightweight, and has light padding all around.

Thanks George!

[Duces Tecum]

. . . and found a Lowe Pro (designed as a camera pack) that appears to work well. Clearly doesn't look "tactical", it's lightweight, and has light padding all around.

As an urban dweller, around here it seems the Alternative-Living types will lift anything that can be flipped or pawned, and a camera pack would vanish about as quickly as a gun case. I don't know what the answer is, but the question has to include the phrase "not valuable enough to steal".

[El Cid]

As an urban dweller, around here it seems the Alternative-Living types will lift anything that can be flipped or pawned, and a camera pack would vanish about as quickly as a gun case. I don't know what the answer is, but the question has to include the phrase "not valuable enough to steal".

Discreet packs, bags, and covert types (instrument shaped) are not for storage or security. They are for moving the weapon around without people thinking it’s a weapon. They still require a lock box or something to keep them from walking.

[nalesq]

As an urban dweller, around here it seems the Alternative-Living types will lift anything that can be flipped or pawned, and a camera pack would vanish about as quickly as a gun case. I don't know what the answer is, but the question has to include the phrase "not valuable enough to steal".

That’s the problem with some of the cooler looking bags. Even if the bags don’t look “tactical,” the bag itself may appear valuable.

This happened to a buddy of mine who had a Mystery Ranch backpack stolen. All of the contents were dumped out (mainly clothing, snacks, and toiletries), and just the bag was taken.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Velo Dog]

I am starting to think that a Rattler in 300 B.O. would really kill everything I'm looking for in one fell swoop.

PDW, light hunting for Bambi, (since shots where I'm at rarely crest 70 yards), shooting tusked pests, woods gun, light fun suppressed with subs. Fuck, I think I just talked myself into one.

“There are no solutions, there are only trade-offs; and you try to get the best trade-off you can get, that’s all you can hope for.” - Economist Thomas Sowell

The SIG Rattler in 300 BLK loaded with Barnes TAC-TX looks very appealing to me.

[Velo Dog]

That’s the problem with some of the cooler looking bags. Even if the bags don’t look “tactical,” the bag itself may appear valuable.

This happened to a buddy of mine who had a Mystery Ranch backpack stolen. All of the contents were dumped out (mainly clothing, snacks, and toiletries), and just the bag was taken.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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[OlongJohnson]

“There are no solutions, there are only trade-offs; and you try to get the best trade-off you can get, that’s all you can hope for.” - Economist Thomas Sowell

The SIG Rattler in 300 BLK loaded with Barnes TAC-TX looks very appealing to me.

For years, I've looked at .300 BLK compared to 6.8 and thought the BLK is pissing into the wind in comparison. When you want to do rifle things, I still stand by that. A 90gr TTSX at 2900 ft/sec does things the BLK just can't.

When you compare a .300 BLK subs to a .45 +P HST inside probably 70 yards, it doesn't buy much, except being able to be launched from a readily-available and highly adaptable PDW-ish thingy.

But the BLK is really good at rifley things for a pistol cartridge, and really good at pistoly things for a rifle cartridge, and being able to be launched from a readily-available and highly adaptable PDW-ish thingy definitely has utility. In this thread, we seem to have put our hands around what makes it all useful. There's definitely a space that nothing else seems to cover quite as well. And in standard P-F fashion, there isn't a bunch of derp where people are trying to make it be something it isn't.

[Joe in PNG]

Discreet packs, bags, and covert types (instrument shaped) are not for storage or security. They are for moving the weapon around without people thinking it’s a weapon. They still require a lock box or something to keep them from walking.

I've used an old softsided lunch cooler as a range bag.

But, who knows what lurks in the mind of a methhead?

[EPF]

INow because I'm a glutton for punishment I really would like to get my hands on a Rattler and try one. I don't know I trust Sig at all still despite some seriously bad ass innovation. The APC on the other hand continues to impress. When I wipe it down you can barely tell it's been shot. Accuracy is good to 150 which is the furthest I've shot it to which I'll admit is quite far and outside the envelope of what I was really looking at. I am starting to think that a Rattler in 300 B.O. would really kill everything I'm looking for in one fell swoop.

PDW, light hunting for Bambi, (since shots where I'm at rarely crest 70 yards), shooting tusked pests, woods gun, light fun suppressed with subs. Fuck, I think I just talked myself into one.

The more I reflect on shooting the rattler, the more I think it really is a unique little gun. It’s as if an MP5 and a Krink had a baby that identifies as an AR15. It’s certainly worth trying one to see if it meets your needs.

[flyrodr]

As an urban dweller, around here it seems the Alternative-Living types will lift anything that can be flipped or pawned, and a camera pack would vanish about as quickly as a gun case. I don't know what the answer is, but the question has to include the phrase "not valuable enough to steal".

Agree, and over the years I've carried camera gear in bags/packs I've become paranoid enough, that the only way to keep them safe is to lock them up securely (hard, locked case, cabled to something immoveable and hopefully out of sight) or keep hold of them.

The bag I referenced is discontinued, but designed to hold a smallish camera with a couple of accessories in one section, with the top section for whatever else. Or, the dividers/spacers can be removed, leaving an open bag. Which, as it turned out, is a good size for the APC9.

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And still plenty of room for misc. "stuff". There's more zippered storage on the front flap. Referencing weight again, Lowepro's in general are overbuilt and padded, and pretty heavy. This one, designed as a dual purpose, is lightweight, but still comfortable to carry.

[CleverNickname]

I'm interested in converting one of my SBR'ed AR15 lowers (that currently sports a 5.56mm upper) into a 300 BLK Rattler-ish thing, which means a folding stock. I don't particularly want to get a 5.5" Rattler conversion kit+upper since they're fairly expensive at ~$1800, and they seem to be out of stock pretty much everywhere anyways. The LAW folder disgusts me for reasons I can't quite put to words. Are there any other options for a ~6" 300 BLK AR15 with a true folding stock or am I SOL? A BRN-180S in 300 BLK is sort of what I'm looking for.

I can't believe I forgot about this. PSA is releasing the JAKL, a long-stroke 300 BLK AR15 SBR with a folding stock, sometime later this year. Other than a bit of apprehension due to it being PSA, it's pretty much what I'm looking for. I'll let someone else buy the Gen 1 version, but I'll probably be in for the Gen 2 version after 6-12 months, if Gen 1 doesn't suck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1yE1ZnC6uw

[rob_s]

I can't believe I forgot about this. PSA is releasing the JAKL, a long-stroke 300 BLK AR15 SBR with a folding stock, sometime later this year. Other than a bit of apprehension due to it being PSA, it's pretty much what I'm looking for. I'll let someone else buy the Gen 1 version, but I'll probably be in for the Gen 2 version after 6-12 months, if Gen 1 doesn't suck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1yE1ZnC6uw

a lot to like in concept there. I'd like to see the CH folding even though it's not reciprocating.

like you say... ?PSA?

[LittleLebowski]

I can't believe I forgot about this. PSA is releasing the JAKL, a long-stroke 300 BLK AR15 SBR with a folding stock, sometime later this year. Other than a bit of apprehension due to it being PSA, it's pretty much what I'm looking for. I'll let someone else buy the Gen 1 version, but I'll probably be in for the Gen 2 version after 6-12 months, if Gen 1 doesn't suck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1yE1ZnC6uw

https://palmettostatearmory.com/blog/shot-show-2020-highlights.html

[awdxtc]

I just picked up an APC9K the other day, only 50 rounds so far but aI am in love.


https://i.imgur.com/YXntTUF.jpg

[WobblyPossum]

All this Rattler talk has me eyeing some kind of little .300 BLK gun instead of one of the pistol caliber guns we’ve spent so much time talking about. I’m loathe to add another caliber, having consolidated to 9mm, .38/.357, .223/5.56, and 12ga, since the ammo is expensive and I have no interest in reloading. The rumored upcoming Russian import .300 BLK ammo has me reconsidering, especially if it starts coming in at close to 7.62x39 prices. I continue eagerly awaiting reading a out everyone’s Rattler, or similar, experiences. The PSA JAKL looks interesting, assuming it actually works. I’ve been hearing good things about their latest generation of AKs, so who knows?

[Mike C]

Self enabled and cause for divorce. If I keep adopting small guns my wife is going to kill me or divorce me, I'm not sure which yet. The Rattler is freaking small and you just don't get it until you put your hands on it. It also feels lighter than the APC. My only real gripes are the brace likes to twirl around which I'm not crazy about and the threading on the barrel is not compatible with my 5/8x24 thread pitched FH from rugged. So yay for proprietary thread pitches. No suppression for me until I figure out how to fix that. Fucking Sig. If it doesn't work I will be on the Sig hate train for ever.

Just finished pulling the optic off the APC to move over to the Rattler to see how it runs a bit. Hopefully the Sig is reliable, if so I'll keep it and send the APC down the road.

53262

[EPF]

Self enabled and cause for divorce. If I keep adopting small guns my wife is going to kill me or divorce me, I'm not sure which yet. The Rattler is freaking small and you just don't get it until you put your hands on it. It also feels lighter than the APC. My only real gripes are the brace likes to twirl around which I'm not crazy about and the threading on the barrel is not compatible with my 5/8x24 thread pitched FH from rugged. So yay for proprietary thread pitches. No suppression for me until I figure out how to fix that. Fucking Sig. If it doesn't work I will be on the Sig hate train for ever.

Just finished pulling the optic off the APC to move over to the Rattler to see how it runs a bit. Hopefully the Sig is reliable, if so I'll keep it and send the APC down the road.

53262

The title is perfect :). I look forward to hearing your thoughts on shooting it in the shooting thread. I find that tightening the plastic “nut” on the back of the brace helps a bit. The sig brace isn’t bad for shooting. I have an adaptor to fit the tail hook, now if I can find a tail hook for sale. I’m curious how much it will affect the folding.

[Xhado]

I guess its a good thing all of the Sig LE/Mil dealers are out of stock, or else I would be having marital issues as well.

[Norville]

I guess its a good thing all of the Sig LE/Mil dealers are out of stock, or else I would be having marital issues as well.

I
Hate
This
Thread



Agree on the Rattler... Decided to test the waters with a $300 PSA upper. That was easy, but the $800 worth of ammo hurt for a second though.

[HCountyGuy]

I’m still on the “Screw Sig” train, and I’m too broke to buy a Rattler even if I wasn’t.

[Mike C]

Unless I'm mistaken, the barrel of the Rattler is threaded 5/8x24, but with a taper after the threads. I assume you are referring to the taper (which isn't "propietary" as Q uses the same taper on all of their guns -- as does Sig & HK on some of theirs) and not the threads. However, the Rattler comes with a 90° shoulder adapter in the box so you should be able to us any standard 5/8x24 muzzle device.

I found the adapter right away, that is what prompted the trial of the flash hider I had laying around. It was a flash hider I had ordered from rugged which was supposed to be 5/8x24 but it could be the incorrect thread pitch. Anyone can make a mistake but I don't presently have anything else to test it against. If the Sig is threaded for 5/8x24 I'll eat some crow no problem and retract my statement. So far I am seriously digging the Rattler though. In just working dry transitions, mounting and dismounting the gun my opinion is that it's a home run so long as it runs for me, I've got shit for luck. I will get to a shop tomorrow and find another FH in 5/8x24 and find out if I just received the incorrect FH. I really hope it's the case. Thanks Tom_Jones for bringing this up. I honestly didn't even think about it being the wrong pitch and haven't taken the time to do adequate research. That alone makes me want to put my foot in my mouth.

[Xhado]

I’m still on the “Screw Sig” train, and I’m too broke to buy a Rattler even if I wasn’t.

I'm on that train too. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any other option on the market.

[Mike C]

Tom_Jones, you are absolutely correct everything I am finding says 5/8x24. That'll teach me to spout off and now it is likely I ordered the wrong FH or got sent the wrong one. Could've sworn I ordered 5/8x24. Anyways I don't think I've ever been this happy to be wrong, I hope I can find a FH for the Rugged can tomorrow with correct the TP.

[RevolverRob]

Self enabled and cause for divorce. If I keep adopting small guns my wife is going to kill me or divorce me, I'm not sure which yet. The Rattler is freaking small and you just don't get it until you put your hands on it. It also feels lighter than the APC. My only real gripes are the brace likes to twirl around which I'm not crazy about and the threading on the barrel is not compatible with my 5/8x24 thread pitched FH from rugged. So yay for proprietary thread pitches. No suppression for me until I figure out how to fix that. Fucking Sig. If it doesn't work I will be on the Sig hate train for ever.

Just finished pulling the optic off the APC to move over to the Rattler to see how it runs a bit. Hopefully the Sig is reliable, if so I'll keep it and send the APC down the road.

53262

Don’t like the spiny brace thing. Any idea what to do about it? Some tape or tighten a screw or something?

I’m just waiting for my dealer to get a Canebrake in and I’m done. I might even be obsessively calling them every few days...

[Mike C]

Don’t like the spiny brace thing. Any idea what to do about it? Some tape or tighten a screw or something?

I’m just waiting for my dealer to get a Canebrake in and I’m done. I might even be obsessively calling them every few days...

I’m thinking drill and tap for a 6mm screw with recessed Allen head. Only concern I can think of is the brace portion is rubber or some kind of material like it and I’d be worried it will warp over time against the screw. This is just an initial though so I’ll give it a closer look tomorrow to see if it is viable. If not I think I might just put up with it. My 9K with sling stock, light, factory sights and full 24 round mag with 147gr hst’s is 2 oz more than the Rattler with irons and a 20 round pmag full of supers. I could slap in a light and slight and be about on par or when I add the optic I’m only 4-6oz more. You bring a hell of a lot more to the party with the 300 B.O. Holy crap did I mention how freaking small it is? As to the brace it’s really a nit pick I think, I don’t think it will be and issue in messing with it around the house. At the moment I’m thinking I might have to take back some of the shit talking I’ve been doing about Sig if it runs. I really dig the APC but wow.

[EPF]

I’m thinking drill and tap for a 6mm screw with recessed Allen head. Only concern I can think of is the brace portion is rubber or some kind of material like it and I’d be worried it will warp over time against the screw. This is just an initial though so I’ll give it a closer look tomorrow to see if it is viable. If not I think I might just put up with it. My 9K with sling stock, light, factory sights and full 24 round mag with 147gr hst’s is 2 oz more than the Rattler with irons and a 20 round pmag full of supers. I could slap in a light and slight and be about on par or when I add the optic I’m only 4-6oz more. You bring a hell of a lot more to the party with the 300 B.O. Holy crap did I mention how freaking small it is? As to the brace it’s really a nit pick I think, I don’t think it will be and issue in messing with it around the house. At the moment I’m thinking I might have to take back some of the shit talking I’ve been doing about Sig if it runs. I really dig the APC but wow.

I put one of those rubber bands designed to hold a sling to the stock around the end of the brace to keep the two halves from opening and letting the arm band itself unravel when I don’t want it to. It helped a bit as well.

It really is a tiny gun. I’m very surprised how well it handles considering the chambering and size of the gun.

[El Cid]

All this Rattler talk has me eyeing some kind of little .300 BLK gun instead of one of the pistol caliber guns we’ve spent so much time talking about. I’m loathe to add another caliber, having consolidated to 9mm, .38/.357, .223/5.56, and 12ga, since the ammo is expensive and I have no interest in reloading. The rumored upcoming Russian import .300 BLK ammo has me reconsidering, especially if it starts coming in at close to 7.62x39 prices. I continue eagerly awaiting reading a out everyone’s Rattler, or similar, experiences. The PSA JAKL looks interesting, assuming it actually works. I’ve been hearing good things about their latest generation of AKs, so who knows?

“Instead?” You’ve been on PF long enough to know you need both a PCC and 300BLK.

[WobblyPossum]

“Instead?” You’ve been on PF long enough to know you need both a PCC and 300BLK.

You’re a bad person and my bank account hates you already.

[Mike C]

Small gripe about the brace is gone. I didn't even need to trim the screw. I just dropped a touch of locktite on the screw and ran it down as hard as I could by hand then pinched the rubber surrounding the screw and rotated it as much as I could until it would no longer rotate. The brace doesn't rotate freely anymore, way less trouble that what I was thinking, thanks Tom. Now that this is fixed and I've figured out the FH I have is the incorrect thread pitch I don't have a single gripe.

[masternave]

Bill Rapier at Amtac talks about PDWs in vehicles, courtesy of KitBadger.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hon428orgog&feature=emb_title

[GJM]

1) this morning, I cleaned my MPX. Competitors have learned the hard way, to regularly clean the gas piston. Unlike the MCX, which apparently runs clean, the MPX gas system gets gunked up from pistol powder. To clean the gas piston, you have to remove two torx screws and pull the barrel. Since I had removed and reinstalled the barrel, I checked zero at the range this afternoon. Optic had stayed installed on the rail. The MPX was zeroed at 25 yards, and my zero moved three inches up and two inches right. For serious use, having to regularly clean the gas system by removing and reinstalling the barrel and then confirming zero with live fire seems like a deal breaker.

2) I added another to the PDW family.

53434

[Caballoflaco]

1) this morning, I cleaned my MPX. Competitors have learned the hard way, to regularly clean the gas piston. Unlike the MCX, which apparently runs clean, the MPX gas system gets gunked up from pistol powder. To clean the gas piston, you have to remove two torx screws and pull the barrel. Since I had removed and reinstalled the barrel, I checked zero at the range this afternoon. Optic had stayed installed on the rail. The MPX was zeroed at 25 yards, and my zero moved three inches up and two inches right. For serious use, having to regularly clean the gas system by removing and reinstalling the barrel and then confirming zero with live fire seems like a deal breaker.

2) I added another to the PDW family.

53434

Details man, we need details.

[WobblyPossum]

2) I added another to the PDW family.

53434

Pretty baller but what role will it fill that the Rattler won’t?

[GJM]

Details man, we need details.

53435


Pretty baller but what role will it fill that the Rattler won’t?

I would rather carry a Rattler but shoot a KAC SR-30.

[Mike C]

For anyone who has an interest in a Rattler I had a chance to run it today. I only had time to hit the indoor range to rough zero and run a few rounds. In short here is what I think so far.

In first few familiarizing rounds, (150 total) the first few things I noticed are:

1. Surprisingly soft shooting, (subs are ridiculously soft) supers are still easily controllable.
2. Not a ton of flash or noise to what I thought it might be out of a 5.5" barrel.
3. Flash hider works exceptionally well.
4. The gun didn't get very hot when running a few pairs, F2S and bills consecutively. I finished in about 40-45 minutes to include checkin time.
5. The gun feels exceptionally well built but not overly heavy and is light and nimble.
6. I like the reinforced area in the receiver where the cam pin rotates during locking and unlocking cycle of operation, it looks replaceable.
7. Rounded locking lugs on bolt.
8. Spring located in front of firing pin to prevent slam fire and prevent discharge if the gun is inadvertently dropped muzzle first.
9. There is a retaining latch for firing pin as secondary retention outside of locking pin.
10. Roll pins are what the locking latches on the charging handle lock onto. This was really smart IMHO and allows them to be changed when wear occurs.
11. CH is pretty excellent perfect size and unobtrusive.
12. Trigger is freaking fantastic out of the box.
13. The Hornady 190gr expanding subs and 208gr Amax subs won't cycle carrier far enough to feed and chamber another round but enough to recock the hammer. I believe it will likely do fine suppressed and is probably optimally tuned to do so. I won't hold it against the gun until I actually get to put a suppressor or two on it.

My take away:
1. Initial impression is favorable and as of this moment I believe this is the best gun Sig has made in a long time, so long as it doesn't develop any issues. I believe it to be down right F'n revolutionary. I believe I am going to have to stop talking crap.
2. The one nit pick about the brace was absolutely unfounded.
3. This gun is small and brings a ton of versatility and capability over a PCC like I was initially looking at. GJM is spot on as always.
4. The gun is small but not too small or cramped but I am only 5'6".
5. More shooting/testing is needed to see if any fleas develop because I'm lucky that way. I also need to see what stabilizes and produces the best accuracy to include velocity readings to figure out what the max range of expansion is to be expected.
6. I really dig this gun, the APC may have to go the way of the TP9.

[Mike C]

I just flipped through my manual and it clearly states that the Rattler is not setup to run subs unsuppressed. No fault of the gun as it was designed that way. Good to read and puts my mind at ease.

[Velo Dog]

I just flipped through my manual and it clearly states that the Rattler is not setup to run subs unsuppressed. No fault of the gun as it was designed that way. Good to read and puts my mind at ease.

This article helps explain how requirements evolved while developing the SIG Sauer MCX Rattler
https://www.swatmag.com/article/when-size-matters-sig-sauer-mcx-rattler-sbr/

[EPF]

This article helps explain how requirements evolved while developing the SIG Sauer MCX Rattler
https://www.swatmag.com/article/when-size-matters-sig-sauer-mcx-rattler-sbr/

It’s interesting that sig shipped the gun to the evaluator with the 125 grain sig branded ammo that I posted in the ammo/mags/enabling thread. I guess that’s a sign that it performs well in the gun. At the current price it may be the best option for practice with the rattler.

[Caballoflaco]

I just flipped through my manual and it clearly states that the Rattler is not setup to run subs unsuppressed. No fault of the gun as it was designed that way. Good to read and puts my mind at ease.

Not that it’s something you specifically need or want to do, but I wonder if a Russian style booster like the Noveske kx5 would provide enough backpressure to run subs without a silencer if someone was so inclined. It’s sounds like it was on the verge of working.

[Mike C]

Not that it’s something you specifically need or want to do, but I wonder if a Russian style booster like the Noveske kx5 would provide enough backpressure to run subs without a silencer if someone was so inclined. It’s sounds like it was on the verge of working.

I’d be more inclined to find lighter weight spring rates for the carrier assembly. The issue you’d run into there though is risking premature wear and possibly sacrificing reliability in other areas. I’m just not sure I’d be willing to go down that path. The gun feels really well tuned and for the life of me can’t really bitch about anything with it.

Today I got another 150 rounds through it as of this morning out to 100 but didn’t have time to get to 150 and 200 as I’d hoped. I hopefully will tomorrow and should be able to hook up my suppressor shortly as well. I hope to get some time without having to rush so I can print a few groups on paper at 100, 150 and 200. I’ll end with this the Rattler has blown my expectations out of the water.

[rob_s]

On that note...

He mentions a couple of subsonic hunting rounds in that video. Either of them actually good for that or similar applications?

[RevolverRob]

I’d be more inclined to find lighter weight spring rates for the carrier assembly. The issue you’d run into there though is risking premature wear and possibly sacrificing reliability in other areas. I’m just not sure I’d be willing to go down that path. The gun feels really well tuned and for the life of me can’t really bitch about anything with it.

Today I got another 150 rounds through it as of this morning out to 100 but didn’t have time to get to 150 and 200 as I’d hoped. I hopefully will tomorrow and should be able to hook up my suppressor shortly as well. I hope to get some time without having to rush so I can print a few groups on paper at 100, 150 and 200. I’ll end with this the Rattler has blown my expectations out of the water.

If it almost cycles Subs, I'd bet a KX3 would make it work with the 190-grain Hornadys.

I'm glad it's working for your Mike. You've only cost me about 3000 bucks during Covid. I'll be sure to send you the bill for my couple's therapy when my wife figures out how much I've spent. :eek:

[Mike C]

Tom_Jones FWIW I'm not advocating for a spring change or even messing with the gun to run subs unsuppressed. The Rattler is everything I could ask for and then some in a small package. My initial impression was that it might be an issue as every gun in .300 B.O. I've had whether bought or built ran subs and supers with little more needed other than a buffer and or spring change, most needed nothing at all. I now understand why the Rattler runs and is tuned the way it is after reading the owners manual and the post from another member on the Rattler and doing my own reading. I think that Sig really dove deep into this gun and it really shows.

[HCM]

1) this morning, I cleaned my MPX. Competitors have learned the hard way, to regularly clean the gas piston. Unlike the MCX, which apparently runs clean, the MPX gas system gets gunked up from pistol powder. To clean the gas piston, you have to remove two torx screws and pull the barrel. Since I had removed and reinstalled the barrel, I checked zero at the range this afternoon. Optic had stayed installed on the rail. The MPX was zeroed at 25 yards, and my zero moved three inches up and two inches right. For serious use, having to regularly clean the gas system by removing and reinstalling the barrel and then confirming zero with live fire seems like a deal breaker.



Re: the MPX

1) what Ammo are you using ? The gas piston fouling did not occur during agency testing with duty ammo like gold dot.

Many institutional users will take years to hit 5k rounds.

2) my understanding is which ammo that does foul the gas piston it takes 4,000 to 5,000 rounds to do so

3) when you removed the barrel did you use a torque driver when re-installing the barrel screws ? Per the factory MPX manual (page 69) they are supposed to be torqued to 40 inch/lbs. In lead we trust (ILWT) sells a pre-set torque driver for this purpose.

https://inleadwetrust.com/product/barrel-nut-compact-torque-key/?fbclid=IwAR2sck5LS929ktXcy6a1eWBX6xlXDuNEY7PyystT 8HgsjeyOxFcuVhxKnYU

https://www.sigsauer.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/MPX.pdf

I could see zero shifting if the screws aren’t re-torqued to the same tightness.

[RevolverRob]

Re: the MPX

1) what Ammo are you using ? The gas piston fouling did not occur during agency testing with duty ammo like gold dot.


How many rounds are we talking?

I imagine top PCC competitors have firing schedules closer to that of a rental SMG than that of the average LE user. I dunno how many rounds a day Lena Miculek (Team Sig) is running through her MPX(es), but judging by the fact that there are 3-4 videos a week of her doing live-fire range drills for 2-4 hours a day, I would guess that her firing schedule is in the 1k a week or more range. She's a GM in PCC these days - so I would guess that's pretty close to what others are doing.

One of the things that gets me about PCCs and the attempts to make them run softer, is that pistol ammo is pretty dirty overall. Even though we've come a long way, it still fouls up. This is one reason why a lot of SMGs are blowback guns (in addition to being cheaper to build) they run better when filthy. The trade off, of course, is blow back guns run even dirtier than gas guns.

Still, you can take a blow back gun and spray the bolt down with some CLP and cycle the action a dozen times and knock a bunch of crud out of the mag well and it will probably go back to chugging right along (I've done exactly that to a Sterling that hadn't been cleaned in...well when was Bush 1.0 president?...). Honestly, you could probably do the same with a DI SMG.

[HCM]

How many rounds are we talking?

I imagine top PCC competitors have firing schedules closer to that of a rental SMG than that of the average LE user. I dunno how many rounds a day Lena Miculek (Team Sig) is running through her MPX(es), but judging by the fact that there are 3-4 videos a week of her doing live-fire range drills for 2-4 hours a day, I would guess that her firing schedule is in the 1k a week or more range. She's a GM in PCC these days - so I would guess that's pretty close to what others are doing.

One of the things that gets me about PCCs and the attempts to make them run softer, is that pistol ammo is pretty dirty overall. Even though we've come a long way, it still fouls up. This is one reason why a lot of SMGs are blowback guns (in addition to being cheaper to build) they run better when filthy. The trade off, of course, is blow back guns run even dirtier than gas guns.

Still, you can take a blow back gun and spray the bolt down with some CLP and cycle the action a dozen times and knock a bunch of crud out of the mag well and it will probably go back to chugging right along (I've done exactly that to a Sterling that hadn't been cleaned in...well when was Bush 1.0 president?...). Honestly, you could probably do the same with a DI SMG.

10k gold dot +p.

However, for places that run practice ammo, especially the Winchester purple DHS practice ammo which is super dirty, this should be taken into account.

[Grey]

53435



I would rather carry a Rattler but shoot a KAC SR-30.

This is the way.

[GJM]

Re: the MPX

1) what Ammo are you using ? The gas piston fouling did not occur during agency testing with duty ammo like gold dot.

Many institutional users will take years to hit 5k rounds.

2) my understanding is which ammo that does foul the gas piston it takes 4,000 to 5,000 rounds to do so

3) when you removed the barrel did you use a torque driver when re-installing the barrel screws ? Per the factory MPX manual (page 69) they are supposed to be torqued to 40 inch/lbs. In lead we trust (ILWT) sells a pre-set torque driver for this purpose.

https://inleadwetrust.com/product/barrel-nut-compact-torque-key/?fbclid=IwAR2sck5LS929ktXcy6a1eWBX6xlXDuNEY7PyystT 8HgsjeyOxFcuVhxKnYU

https://www.sigsauer.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/MPX.pdf

I could see zero shifting if the screws aren’t re-torqued to the same tightness.

I only shoot factory ammo thru my MPX, almost exclusively American Eagle and Lawman. Most people who wait 4,000 - 5,000 rounds will find that they are unable to remove the MPX gas piston. Serious PCC competitors, like Brian Nelson, recommend cleaning the MPX gas system every night during major matches. I have used my calibrated wrist for screw tension. Someone ambitious could remove and reinstall the barrel multiple times to develop data on POI shift. It is probably not a feature to have a gas system that needs clean and requires the barrel to be removed to accomplish that.

On the KAC front, I shot my new SR-30 for the first time earlier today. I had multiple double feeds with supersonic 110 Vmax loaded by Atlanta Arms and 120 grain Remington. Will be calling Tom in CS there at KAC tomorrow for return instructions.

[ranger]

I always use anti seize on my MPX gas piston and never had an issue with gas piston and that includes often shooting suppressed. 99% of the rounds through my MPX have been my reloads with 115FMJ over WSF. It is filthy before I clean it.

[RevolverRob]

On the KAC front, I shot my new SR-30 for the first time earlier today. I had multiple double feeds with supersonic 110 Vmax loaded by Atlanta Arms and 120 grain Remington. Will be calling Tom in CS there at KAC tomorrow for return instructions.

Sig more reliable than Knight's out of the box.

Shit is getting weird in this thread.

[Clusterfrack]

I had a great day doing some long range shooting in the OR coast range with a couple of buddies. There was a guy camped long term in a derelict van near our firing point. Since his location was separated from ours by a small densely wooded valley, and not in line with our targets, we didn’t give him much thought. When we were done, the other guys went to get the steel while I waited with my vehicle at the firing point. Right after they left, I heard somebody creeping around in the trees to my right and below. I made sure they could hear me radio that there was an individual moving near my position. The noise stopped, and I couldn’t get eyes on him. I decided the best thing was to unass that location and wait elsewhere.

I’m pretty sure that camping dude was hiding down there listening to us the whole time. He must have thought I left with the others.

Anyway, very glad to have had my 300 BLK PDW. I discovered that it is easy to enter a vehicle quickly and drive with it slung.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200506/e802379bcea834fde338986037b34c60.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200506/b6ce3b16ac805b52329ffc84bbda4f75.jpg

[rca90gsx]

Just need an appropriate set of fixit sticks for quick torque.



I only shoot factory ammo thru my MPX, almost exclusively American Eagle and Lawman. Most people who wait 4,000 - 5,000 rounds will find that they are unable to remove the MPX gas piston. Serious PCC competitors, like Brian Nelson, recommend cleaning the MPX gas system every night during major matches. I have used my calibrated wrist for screw tension. Someone ambitious could remove and reinstall the barrel multiple times to develop data on POI shift. It is probably not a feature to have a gas system that needs clean and requires the barrel to be removed to accomplish that.

On the KAC front, I shot my new SR-30 for the first time earlier today. I had multiple double feeds with supersonic 110 Vmax loaded by Atlanta Arms and 120 grain Remington. Will be calling Tom in CS there at KAC tomorrow for return instructions.

[Corse]

I only shoot factory ammo thru my MPX, almost exclusively American Eagle and Lawman. Most people who wait 4,000 - 5,000 rounds will find that they are unable to remove the MPX gas piston. Serious PCC competitors, like Brian Nelson, recommend cleaning the MPX gas system every night during major matches. I have used my calibrated wrist for screw tension. Someone ambitious could remove and reinstall the barrel multiple times to develop data on POI shift. It is probably not a feature to have a gas system that needs clean and requires the barrel to be removed to accomplish that.

On the KAC front, I shot my new SR-30 for the first time earlier today. I had multiple double feeds with supersonic 110 Vmax loaded by Atlanta Arms and 120 grain Remington. Will be calling Tom in CS there at KAC tomorrow for return instructions.

My mod 1 SR30 works with everything suppressed an unsuppressed. I did have an issue with the original flash hider that caused subsonic rounds to yaw.
The only other one that has worked anywhere near as well is an original AAC upper.

I’m interested to hear what they say.

[HCM]

I always use anti seize on my MPX gas piston and never had an issue with gas piston and that includes often shooting suppressed. 99% of the rounds through my MPX have been my reloads with 115FMJ over WSF. It is filthy before I clean it.

Just the piston or the tappet too ?

[mmc45414]

Experimenting with doubling up with the hand stop. Not sure the piece on the side matters, but I had it to try.
53484

[feudist]

Experimenting with doubling up with the hand stop. Not sure the piece on the side matters, but I had it to try.
53484

Is that a Marauder ?

[LittleLebowski]

I only shoot factory ammo thru my MPX, almost exclusively American Eagle and Lawman. Most people who wait 4,000 - 5,000 rounds will find that they are unable to remove the MPX gas piston. Serious PCC competitors, like Brian Nelson, recommend cleaning the MPX gas system every night during major matches. I have used my calibrated wrist for screw tension. Someone ambitious could remove and reinstall the barrel multiple times to develop data on POI shift. It is probably not a feature to have a gas system that needs clean and requires the barrel to be removed to accomplish that.

On the KAC front, I shot my new SR-30 for the first time earlier today. I had multiple double feeds with supersonic 110 Vmax loaded by Atlanta Arms and 120 grain Remington. Will be calling Tom in CS there at KAC tomorrow for return instructions.

I would try changing buffer weights and mag brand.

[GJM]

I would try changing buffer weights and mag brand.

Apparently, another similar upper from this batch had the same problem. I have been in touch with KAC this morning and they will be bringing the upper back to the factory.

The upper came from KAC with the black (heavy) buffer installed, which is supposedly the proper one for super sonic ammo.

[GJM]

I had a great day doing some long range shooting in the OR coast range with a couple of buddies. There was a guy camped long term in a derelict van near our firing point. Since his location was separated from ours by a small densely wooded valley, and not in line with our targets, we didn’t give him much thought. When we were done, the other guys went to get the steel while I waited with my vehicle at the firing point. Right after they left, I heard somebody creeping around in the trees to my right and below. I made sure they could hear me radio that there was an individual moving near my position. The noise stopped, and I couldn’t get eyes on him. I decided the best thing was to unass that location and wait elsewhere.

I’m pretty sure that camping dude was hiding down there listening to us the whole time. He must have thought I left with the others.

Anyway, very glad to have had my 300 BLK PDW. I discovered that it is easy to enter a vehicle quickly and drive with it slung.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200506/e802379bcea834fde338986037b34c60.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200506/b6ce3b16ac805b52329ffc84bbda4f75.jpg

Kind of like that deer hunting joke where the punch line is “you are obviously not here for the hunting,” I am starting to wonder if you really go there for the shooting?

[LittleLebowski]

Apparently, another similar upper from this batch had the same problem. I have been in touch with KAC this morning and they will be bringing the upper back to the factory.

The upper came from KAC with the black (heavy) buffer installed, which is supposedly the proper one for super sonic ammo.

Hmm, maybe gas port size? They’ll take care of you, my SR30 runs like a champ with anything.

[Clusterfrack]

Kind of like that deer hunting joke where the punch line is “you are obviously not here for the hunting,” I am starting to wonder if you really go there for the shooting?

Yeah. Point taken. There’s more activity at our favorite spots these days, unfortunately. People with too much time on their hands, and too little cash.

We’re evaluating some other areas. Much rather see zero people...

Maybe I need to start an “Oregon Man” thread?

[LittleLebowski]

Clusterfrack what’s with the orange ejection port cover hooyah?

[Clusterfrack]

Clusterfrack what’s with the orange ejection port cover hooyah?

Brownells Safe Port

https://www.brownells.com/search/index.htm?k=ar+15%2Fm16%20safe+port

Do I need to paint it to be operational? :D

[Pit]

For those of you with the newer Rattlers, did it come equipped with the new style pistol grip? If so, impressions. I've not seen/handled one to dare.

JW

[LittleLebowski]

Brownells Safe Port

https://www.brownells.com/search/index.htm?k=ar+15%2Fm16%20safe+port

Do I need to paint it to be operational? :D

Interesting little part and orange is operational at PF.

[EPF]

For those of you with the newer Rattlers, did it come equipped with the new style pistol grip? If so, impressions. I've not seen/handled one to dare.

JW

I like it a lot. It definitely make for a comfortable wrist position with the shorter LOP. It seems tiny at first but is well thought out and purposeful, which I think best describes the gun as a whole.

[rob_s]

Experimenting with doubling up with the hand stop. Not sure the piece on the side matters, but I had it to try.
53484

I have this on my updated PCC and, without having shot it yet, I really like it. My use case was to have something to pull against at the rear and something to keep me from slipping forward at the front.
https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/forend-amp-handguard-parts/handguard-amp-rail-accessories/rail-covers/ar-15-m-lok-handstop-kit-polymer-prod80181.aspx

https://cdn-fsly.yottaa.net/53ff2f503c881650e20004c9/www.brownells.com/v~4b.10e/userdocs/products/p_100017435_1.jpg?yocs=p_

[mmc45414]

I have this on my updated PCC and, without having shot it yet, I really like it. My use case was to have something to pull against at the rear and something to keep me from slipping forward at the front.
https://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/forend-amp-handguard-parts/handguard-amp-rail-accessories/rail-covers/ar-15-m-lok-handstop-kit-polymer-prod80181.aspx

https://cdn-fsly.yottaa.net/53ff2f503c881650e20004c9/www.brownells.com/v~4b.10e/userdocs/products/p_100017435_1.jpg?yocs=p_So mine is the same product, just I combined parts of two sets.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

[RevolverRob]

Just stuck a Rattler Canebrake on layaway (mostly just to give me flexibility for whenever I can get back to Texas) - At some point in the next 100-days I'll be Rattler'ed (Rattled?).

[Pit]

I've gone back to using the Arisaka MLok Finger Stop. Tried the Mag AFG for some time. Just a bit too bulky for my makeshift "holster" in my messenger bag. This little piece is just enough to keep my hand from going forward into areas it does not belong. I find during dry practice as well as live fire the protrusion ends up between my first and middle finger. Enough surface to pull back slightly with. The Rattler is pretty mild. Not a lot is needed to control the weapon during a rapid string of fire.

There's a little bit of wear showing from carrying it for the last 20 month or so. A good package.

Anyone know where I can get a 5/8 x 24" taper adapter? Sigs out of stock. They apparently do not supply them with the Rattler upper. I'm wanting put on the Black Rivers Comp to reduce some bulk.

JW

[GJM]

I've gone back to using the Arisaka MLok Finger Stop. Tried the Mag AFG for some time. Just a bit too bulky for my makeshift "holster" in my messenger bag. This little piece is just enough to keep my hand from going forward into areas it does not belong. I find during dry practice as well as live fire the protrusion ends up between my first and middle finger. Enough surface to pull back slightly with. The Rattler is pretty mild. Not a lot is needed to control the weapon during a rapid string of fire.

There's a little bit of wear showing from carrying it for the last 20 month or so. A good package.

Anyone know where I can get a 5/8 x 24" taper adapter? Sigs out of stock. They apparently do not supply them with the Rattler upper. I'm wanting put on the Black Rivers Comp to reduce some bulk.

JW

I use a Streamlight TLR-8A (https://www.amazon.com/Streamlight-69434-Low-Profile-Rail-Mounted-Tactical/dp/B084SVFWH2/ref=as_li_ss_tl?crid=3PXIO7NN1NLAF&dchild=1&keywords=streamlight+tlr8&qid=1588799394&sprefix=Streamlight+tlr8,aps,148&sr=8-5&linkCode=ll1&tag=ratio07-20&linkId=9bab50e291b277c7a515379fc1b2955e&language=en_US), mounted at 9, which serves as a light and hand stop.

[RevolverRob]

Anyone know where I can get a 5/8 x 24" taper adapter? Sigs out of stock. They apparently do not supply them with the Rattler upper. I'm wanting put on the Black Rivers Comp to reduce some bulk.

JW

Q - https://www.liveqordie.com/products/taper-adapter/

[EPF]

I've gone back to using the Arisaka MLok Finger Stop. Tried the Mag AFG for some time. Just a bit too bulky for my makeshift "holster" in my messenger bag. This little piece is just enough to keep my hand from going forward into areas it does not belong. I find during dry practice as well as live fire the protrusion ends up between my first and middle finger. Enough surface to pull back slightly with. The Rattler is pretty mild. Not a lot is needed to control the weapon during a rapid string of fire.

There's a little bit of wear showing from carrying it for the last 20 month or so. A good package.

Anyone know where I can get a 5/8 x 24" taper adapter? Sigs out of stock. They apparently do not supply them with the Rattler upper. I'm wanting put on the Black Rivers Comp to reduce some bulk.

JW
What sights are those? They look like they take up minimal space but it just might be the pic

[Grey]

Damn, I think I am going to go find a SR30.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[mmc45414]

Is that a Marauder ?
Yes. I have two of them, 5.56 so I can fart around with cheap ammo, 300BO for an actually feasible gun. At this point they are not yet both set up, but I got the green hand stop so I would have easy differentiation.

[Pit]

Q - https://www.liveqordie.com/products/taper-adapter/

Thanks RR. Kinda proud of those little thing ain't they. LOL.

[Pit]

What sights are those? They look like they take up minimal space but it just might be the pic


Must be the pic. They are an old pair of Troy Battlesights.

JW

[SteveB]

For those of you with the newer Rattlers, did it come equipped with the new style pistol grip? If so, impressions. I've not seen/handled one to dare.

JW

I like it; grip angle is a bit more vertical which works for the compressed shooting position with this little gun. It is also skinnier than a standard Magpul grip, but that doesn’t bother me. I bet guys with really big hands are not going to be happy with it.

[Mike C]

I picked up a Romeo 5 to try since it seems I am having some decent luck with the Rattler. It came with a high and low mount but I opted to use an Aimpoint QD mount I had laying around. It seems like someone is thinking with the optic line up as they have with this gun. It's really cool that Sig is using the same footprint as their competitor as it provides one with many mounting options. I never really looked at them before until today. Dot is crisp. It seems fitting to have their optic on the Rattler, I hope it is reliable.

I also got in the correctly threaded FH for the Micro30. The gun seems to run perfectly suppressed with supers or subs. This gun is shaping up to be awesome. Round count is now at a measly 400 but I have ammo and supplies coming in to fix that. I hope to get it to 2000 rounds in short order. One quick side note on the install of a FH. If anyone decides to drop on a break or a FH you're going to need a thin wrench to get on the flats in between the taper adapter and the round portions of the FH or break. I tried using a Magpul wrench and couldn't get to it and had to find a work around. I ended up removing the rail as it was simple to do. You just have to pull the front receiver pin and pull forward. I also would recommend having some thicker shims on hand to make sure your suppressor can clear the rail just in case it sits really low on the mount.

53522

[Mike C]

Tom_Jones Magpul AR wrench (https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/rifle-tools/wrenches/ar-15-m16-armorer-s-wrench-prod72950.aspx) or the like. It came off very easily.

[ranger]

Just the piston or the tappet too ?

The piston and the tappet. Never had issues with the piston-tappet area getting gummed up with carbon with the anti-seize.

[Grey]

LittleLebowski so would I be totally stupid to just buy an upper and assemble one of my lowers for the SR30 or should I just go and buy a full on SR30 pistola?

[Pit]

Website shows it in stock:

https://www.sigsauer.com/store/taper-cap-for-7-62-barrels-5-8-24-thread.html

Got an email from Sig with a tracking number as I had a standing order for one. Unfortunately, it appears they sent the wrong one (TAPER CAP, 5.56 BARRELS, 1/2-28 THREAD).
I'll call them tomorrow.

JW

[Vandal320]

So...I have this upper on the way. Estimated delivery is next Monday.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-10-5-carbine-length-5-56-nato-1-7-nitride-12-slant-m-lok-upper-with-bcg-ch-mbus-sight-set-5165449684.html

I have this lower ordered, will probably ship next week sometime.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-ar-15-complete-moe-ept-pistol-lower-with-sbpdw-brace-no-magazine-black-516446451.html

Thinking about putting a Holosun 510 on it. Does anyone have any experience with the 510?

BUIS would they co witness with the 510 or 1/3rd co witness?

I also have a 7.5 300blk upper on my wish list and please notify my when back in stock.

[Pit]

I use a Streamlight TLR-8A (https://www.amazon.com/Streamlight-69434-Low-Profile-Rail-Mounted-Tactical/dp/B084SVFWH2/ref=as_li_ss_tl?crid=3PXIO7NN1NLAF&dchild=1&keywords=streamlight+tlr8&qid=1588799394&sprefix=Streamlight+tlr8,aps,148&sr=8-5&linkCode=ll1&tag=ratio07-20&linkId=9bab50e291b277c7a515379fc1b2955e&language=en_US), mounted at 9, which serves as a light and hand stop.

If you wouldn't mind, could you post a pic of your TLR 8A and mount.

JW

[fatdog]

I had never tried a LAW folder device, and never gone down to 7.5" in 300BLK yet, but my registered SBR called out to me to try them after this thread posted that in my mind. Set this up for supersonic ammo, just need to add an MLock handstop. On our way to the range this afternoon with a big batch of various 110gr fodder.

53540

[GJM]

If you wouldn't mind, could you post a pic of your TLR 8A and mount.

JW

53541

[SouthNarc]

I ordered one of these and a Tailhhook Mod 1 to stop the spinny.

https://gearheadworks.com/product/tailhook-adapter-to-fix-sig-spin-brace/

[SouthNarc]

So yesterday I had a long talk/corona catch-up with one of the most respected guys in the industry who is an original product developer for Knight's, FN, Daniel Defense, and Magpul, and he too has had a "bag gun" fetish for a while. He's a good friend who I trust and has been training with me on and off for the better part of a decade.

We both think.....and this will probably be somewhat controversial....that the Rattler in it's pistol configuration in a discrete bag is probably the most practical and useful rifle that the average person not looking for trouble could own, in plausible/contextual situations where a rifle may be better than a pistol, in a mostly urban environment.

He ordered one right after we talked and will put his big brain on product support and development.

[EPF]

I ordered one of these and a Tailhhook Mod 1 to stop the spinny.

https://gearheadworks.com/product/tailhook-adapter-to-fix-sig-spin-brace/

I ordered and received the adaptor last week but I wasn’t able to find the brace in stock. Would you mind sharing where you found one? Thanks

[SouthNarc]

I ordered and received the adaptor last week but I wasn’t able to find the brace in stock. Would you mind sharing where you found one? Thanks

I ordered mine from Optics Planet but I have not received a shipping notice.

[WobblyPossum]

Does the current generation of the Rattler have any glaring problems or quirks that prospective buyers should know about?

[Pit]

....that the Rattler in it's pistol configuration in a discrete bag is probably the most practical and useful rifle that the average person not looking for trouble could own, in plausible/contextual situations where a rifle may be better than a pistol, in a mostly urban environment.


This is a very good definition of the role of this weapon for general use.

I like shooting PCC. Same weapon controls as my work gun with cheaper ammo. However I am lost to find a role where I would opt for a longer pistol because my work pistol is not sufficient to finish the job. If I need a bigger boom stick it needs to be a "rifle" or shotgun because today is turning into an unpleasant day.

SouthNarc, I found disassembling the Sig brace, applying adhesive to the internal circumference of the rubber "butt stocks", reassemble and wait 24 hrs. for the adhesive to cure stops the spinning. Mines held for 20 months to date.

JW

[Pit]

53541

Thanks for pic. How much does this set up limit the support hand placement? My concern is there is limited area for getting ahold of this little pistol. I tend to reach out as far as is safe on the forearm. Thanks again!

JW

[Corse]

So yesterday I had a long talk/corona catch-up with one of the most respected guys in the industry who is an original product developer for Knight's, FN, Daniel Defense, and Magpul, and he too has had a "bag gun" fetish for a while. He's a good friend who I trust and has been training with me on and off for the better part of a decade.

We both think.....and this will probably be somewhat controversial....that the Rattler in it's pistol configuration in a discrete bag is probably the most practical and useful rifle that the average person not looking for trouble could own, in plausible/contextual situations where a rifle may be better than a pistol, in a mostly urban environment.

He ordered one right after we talked and will put his big brain on product support and development.

Why are you guys doing this? I already have 300blk guns, I don’t need another. I was supposed to be thinning the herd, and now I’m looking at rattlers.

I already have an gen1 MCX. I think with a 10” or shorter barrel I could get it to the 20” or under length for a backpack. Or I could spend the big bucks and try to find a rattler upper.

[Pit]

Why are you guys doing this? I already have 300blk guns, I don’t need another. I was supposed to be thinning the herd, and now I’m looking at rattlers.

I already have an gen1 MCX. I think with a 10” or shorter barrel I could get it to the 20” or under length for a backpack. Or I could spend the big bucks and try to find a rattler upper.

I think Sig made a 6.75" 300BO barrel for the Gen 1. My lowers a Gen 1. Of course Sig barrels are pricey.

I came across the slightly used Rattler upper prior to buying a MCX. I found a Gen 1 MCX pistol with an 11" 5.56 barrel. Got both for less than a Rattler. Right place / right time.

JW

[LittleLebowski]

LittleLebowski so would I be totally stupid to just buy an upper and assemble one of my lowers for the SR30 or should I just go and buy a full on SR30 pistola?

It really depends on your wallet and how much you want that ambi KAC lower.

[Grey]

It really depends on your wallet and how much you want that ambi KAC lower.

All my other lowers are ambi so I'm not terribly hung up on having a KAC lower. Hrmm, decisions decisions... I really wanted to get a 11.5 CQB upper too... BLEHHHH.

[SouthNarc]

I think the Rattler form factor is significant. I can hang it off a sling on my chest and actually drive, engage from the driver's compartment to the exterior, debuss and then make a two hundred yard body shot, bag the gun, and fade out on foot. And then check into a nice hotel. With a rifle on my back.

The other thing that's cool is that as a retired LEO I can carry this thing in a backpack coast to coast because it IS a pistol.

[SouthNarc]

Curious about this set-up. The MAC guy makes a 250 yard shot with his Rattler with one.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usKXy9wyCwI

[EPF]

I think the Rattler form factor is significant. I can hang it off a sling on my chest and actually drive, engage from the driver's compartment to the exterior, debuss and then make a two hundred yard body shot, bag the gun, and fade out on foot. And then check into a nice hotel. With a rifle on my back.

It really is unbelievably small and handy considering how shootable it is. It’s basically the same size as the MP5K but launches a real round. I haven’t geeked out on hardware tech like this in years.

[SouthNarc]

It really is unbelievably small and handy considering how shootable it is. It’s basically the same size as the MP5K but launches a real round. I haven’t geeked out on hardware tech like this in years.

Yup and the K is a chunky monkey compared to the Rattler, weight wise.

Yeah man I'm geeking out on them too. Obviously!

[EPF]

Curious about this set-up. The MAC guy makes a 250 yard shot with his Rattler with one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usKXy9wyCwI

Gee thanks 😊, I was just settled on an old t1 for the optic and then I saw how this solves the backup sight problem. So...ordered

[HCountyGuy]

Curious about this set-up. The MAC guy makes a 250 yard shot with his Rattler with one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usKXy9wyCwI

Man that setup looks similar to an MP5SD to me.


You guys are really making it hard to not want a Rattler.

[SouthNarc]

Gee thanks 😊, I was just settled on an old t1 for the optic and then I saw how this solves the backup sight problem. So...ordered


Fucking 250 yards dude.

Go to 15:52 in the video



https://youtu.be/j2VRsPBqItk

[EPF]

Im about to order the 1 MOA rmr to live on the rattler in that mount. Anyone see a reason to use the larger MOA RMR?

[SouthNarc]

Im about to order the 1 MOA rmr to live on the rattler in that mount. Anyone see a reason to use the larger MOA RMR?

I'd defer to GJM on that one.

[RevolverRob]

Gee thanks 😊, I was just settled on an old t1 for the optic and then I saw how this solves the backup sight problem. So...ordered

DAMNIT! That looks awesome.

This thread - has single handedly been the most expensive thread, for me, in P-F history.

Special Thanks to the following assholes for spending my money:

SouthNarc
Mike C
GJM
Grey
LittleLebowski
EPF
El Cid

___

Thanks to all you other assholes too.

[Grey]

DAMNIT! That looks awesome.

This thread - has single handedly been the most expensive thread, for me, in P-F history.

Special Thanks to the following assholes for spending my money:

SouthNarc
Mike C
GJM
Grey
LittleLebowski
EPF
El Cid

___

Thanks to all you other assholes too.It's always easier to spend someone else's money than your own hahaha.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[RevolverRob]

It's always easier to spend someone else's money than your own hahaha.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

I have three words for you:

Alchemy Custom Weaponry

___

Get 'er done, homie.

[OlongJohnson]

I think the Rattler form factor is significant. I can hang it off a sling on my chest and actually drive, engage from the driver's compartment to the exterior, debuss and then make a two hundred yard body shot, bag the gun, and fade out on foot. And then check into a nice hotel. With a rifle on my back.

The other thing that's cool is that as a retired LEO I can carry this thing in a backpack coast to coast because it IS a pistol.

In CA, home of The Original AWB(TM), any semi-auto pistol that feeds the magazine other than through the grip is an AW.

Just another reason to have a Fighlite SCR in .300 BLK that can be split in half and packed in a regular hard-sided suitcase more easily than a 1301 that's set up with all the good stuff.

[SouthNarc]

DAMNIT! That looks awesome.

This thread - has single handedly been the most expensive thread, for me, in P-F history.

Special Thanks to the following assholes for spending my money:

SouthNarc
Mike C
GJM
Grey
LittleLebowski
EPF
El Cid

___

Thanks to all you other assholes too.





You're quite welcome Rob!!

[SouthNarc]

In CA, home of The Original AWB(TM), any semi-auto pistol that feeds the magazine other than through the grip is an AW.

I was talking about America...


Point noted!

[Grey]

I have three words for you:

Alchemy Custom Weaponry

___

Get 'er done, homie.I ALMOST bought a carry they posted that was available. But I dont need a 45...

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[EPF]

DAMNIT! That looks awesome.

This thread - has single handedly been the most expensive thread, for me, in P-F history.

Special Thanks to the following assholes for spending my money:

SouthNarc
Mike C
GJM
Grey
LittleLebowski
EPF
El Cid

___

Thanks to all you other assholes too.

If it makes you feel any better I am irrationally jealous of your canebrake purchase. It’s probably a good thing that the Hanson Bro’s didn’t get back to me because I’d probably have a handful of suppressors on order by now 😂

[RevolverRob]

In CA, home of The Original AWB(TM), any semi-auto pistol that feeds the magazine other than through the grip is an AW.

Just another reason to have a Fighlite SCR in .300 BLK that can be split in half and packed in a regular hard-sided suitcase more easily than a 1301 that's set up with all the good stuff.

I think LEOSA supersedes the AWB as it applies to individuals traveling to California. But you know, better safe than sorry.

Here is a bit from California that also outlines some of their interpretations of how LEOSA applies - https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/firearms/forms/leosasummary.pdf

[RevolverRob]

If it makes you feel any better I am irrationally jealous of your canebrake purchase. It’s probably a good thing that the Hanson Bro’s didn’t get back to me because I’d probably have a handful of suppressors on order by now 😂

Well, if it makes you feel any better - since I can't have a silencer here in IL - it's basically just a cool looking Rattler as opposed to a fully functional one. :rolleyes:

It does give me the opportunity to spend an inordinate amount of time researching silencers though.

[EPF]

Well, if it makes you feel any better - since I can't have a silencer here in IL - it's basically just a cool looking Rattler as opposed to a fully functional one. :rolleyes:

It does give me the opportunity to spend an inordinate amount of time researching silencers though.

Sounds like it’s screaming for one of these 😎

https://www.sigsauer.com/store/handguard-sigmcx-rattler-aluminum-low-profile-300b-5-in-blk-mlok.html

[RevolverRob]

Sounds like it’s screaming for one of these 😎

https://www.sigsauer.com/store/handguard-sigmcx-rattler-aluminum-low-profile-300b-5-in-blk-mlok.html

Yea, I'm basically going to have it setup two ways

1) Canebrake Handguard + "Training Muzzle Device" with a full size flashlight for use as a house gun.

2) Rattler handguard + Cherry Bomb and Whistle Tip with a compact flashlight as my travel gun.

What sold me was shove the front pin out and pull off the handguard, letting me swap configurations in a few minutes. Add a couple of minutes to tighten the muzzle device and we're done.

Of course the trick will be sighting the gun in and checking for POI shifts in the different configurations. It shouldn't be a problem with a 25y zero (maybe a minor one with the muzzle device change), let's hope that's true.

[Mike C]

Yea, I'm basically going to have it setup two ways

1) Canebrake Handguard + "Training Muzzle Device" with a full size flashlight for use as a house gun.

2) Rattler handguard + Cherry Bomb and Whistle Tip with a compact flashlight as my travel gun.

What sold me was shove the front pin out and pull off the handguard, letting me swap configurations in a few minutes. Add a couple of minutes to tighten the muzzle device and we're done.

Of course the trick will be sighting the gun in and checking for POI shifts in the different configurations. It shouldn't be a problem with a 25y zero (maybe a minor one with the muzzle device change), let's hope that's true.

They really did an awesome job there with the handguard. I'm loving mine and I don't think you'll be unhappy Rob. Now... I just need to sell that APC so I can justify buying another one. When the wife flips I'll blame it on Doc, he said we need three.

[EPF]

I think the Rattler form factor is significant. I can hang it off a sling on my chest and actually drive, engage from the driver's compartment to the exterior, debuss and then make a two hundred yard body shot, bag the gun, and fade out on foot. And then check into a nice hotel. With a rifle on my back.
.

When you develop this into the Shivworks alumni “PDWs and Room Service” course I’m in because that sound like a hella fun EVO.

[OlongJohnson]

I think LEOSA supersedes the AWB as it applies to individuals traveling to California. But you know, better safe than sorry.

Here is a bit from California that also outlines some of their interpretations of how LEOSA applies - https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/firearms/forms/leosasummary.pdf

I'm pretty sure Dagga Boy has spoken about retired LEOs and maybe even active LEOs getting jammed up or attempted jammed up over weapons issues in CA. The message was (paraphrasing), "If they're making trouble for actual cops over this stuff, what do you think they'll do to you?"

[RevolverRob]

When you develop this into the Shivworks alumni “PDWs and Room Service” course I’m in because that sound like a hella fun EVO.

I was thinking about an hour ago, "Now we have to get Craig to add some level of PDW stuff to VCAST..."

Since he knows something about how the homies overseas are deploying these things - perhaps we can get a bit of (in)direct insight. And I know Craig is very good at evaluating MIL/LE things and thinking about how they might be applied in a non-MIL/LE applications.

[Rex G]

I am going to go broke, reading this thread. I was seriously thinking about trading my DDM4V7P, for credit on a rifle, and some of the posts in the several carbine and PDW threads pulled me back from making the trade. Before this is over, I may have bought a rifle, and one of the super-compact PDWs, while keeping the DDM4V7P.

I bought a Noveske Flaming Pig, to see if its blast-forward concept helps make shooting on a particular piece of family-owned land more socially acceptable. (Texas has so very little public land, where one can still legally shoot, other than sanctioned hunting.)

I am managing to (finally!) acquire small amounts of defensive 300 ammo, with various bullets weights, so I can test function, point-of-impact, and accuracy.

I am not so sure about LEOSA covering me, especially as a retiree, in carrying normal-capacity magazines and AR-based weapons into the peoples’ republiks.

[El Cid]

DAMNIT! That looks awesome.

This thread - has single handedly been the most expensive thread, for me, in P-F history.

Special Thanks to the following assholes for spending my money:

SouthNarc
Mike C
GJM
Grey
LittleLebowski
EPF
El Cid

___

Thanks to all you other assholes too.

Happy to help! Lol!

[OlongJohnson]

I am not so sure about LEOSA covering me, especially as a retiree, in carrying normal-capacity magazines and AR-based weapons into the peoples’ republiks.

Even if you actually are covered and they ultimately have to give up, they can still put you through the machine, as it costs the people doing it absolutely nothing. The process is the punishment. IANAL and, of course, this is not legal advice.

[Rex G]

Even if you actually are covered and they ultimately have to give up, they can still put you through the machine, as it costs the people doing it absolutely nothing. The process is the punishment. IANAL and, of course, this is not legal advice.

This is one significant reason that I brought only revolvers with me, the last time I carried out of state. My chief destination was in Ohio, but a side-trip into NY/NJ was contemplated.

[Velo Dog]

...the Rattler in it's pistol configuration in a discrete bag is probably the most practical and useful rifle that the average person not looking for trouble could own, in plausible/contextual situations where a rifle may be better than a pistol, in a mostly urban environment.

I had no real interest in the 300 BLK cartridge, pistol braced anything, or newer SIG products until this thread.

However, the Rattler seems to do what no other large handgun can do. What else can compete with its combination of power, range, accuracy, capacity, and shootability?

53553
Even ammo cost is reasonable when compared to cartridges like .50AE and .460 S&W Magnum.

This is a quote from the Revolvers forum

I've owned, shot and reloaded for my .30 carbine Blackhawk since I bought it as a youth (I'm 63 now). I stupidly sold my M1 carbine long ago because I just didn't shoot it any more after getting the Blackhawk. The ballistics of this round out of a handgun are incredible. It shot damn near flat to 100 yards out of the 7 1/2 inch barrel. As long as you wear ear protection there's no problem, and the recoil is minimal.
Another thing, there's something about the combination of the standard hardball loads small .30 caliber bullet nose area, 110 grain bullet weight and 1,400 fps velocity. These rounds would penetrate like nothing I've ever seen out of a handgun. I used to shoot clean through old car bodies from end to end, as long as you didn't hit the engine block. I would impress people by shooting a round right through a 14 inch diameter creosote saturated telephone pole like it was a 2 by 4. One day, a guy a the range was destroying an old flak vest with kevlar plates by shooting high power rifle rounds through it. The plates easily stopped any handgun round that guys tried on it. Until the plates ran into a 110 grain hardball round from the Blackhawk. The .30 carbine rounds went through the kevlar plates like butter........

The Rattler has limitations as a small rifle, but as a big pistol it has unique possibilities.

[Grey]

Found a SR-30 upper at a good price... do I buy it... AHHHHH!!!!!!!

[RevolverRob]

Found a SR-30 upper at a good price... do I buy it... AHHHHH!!!!!!!

Uhh...yea man.

[Mike C]

Uhh...yea man.

Now who's the one pushing people over the edge?

[GJM]

A few thoughts.

1) I like the APC9 Pro for shooting steel and the ease of feeding it, but the Rattler with 110 Barnes is my ideal PDW — my definition of a PDW being it fits in a GR1 and still allows me to carry all my other normal stuff. Craig gave me the push on the Rattler, and so far it has surpassed my expectations. The Rattler really grows on you as you live with it, as it is big and heavy enough to shoot well, but small enough that it conceals brilliantly.

2) the PDW threads continue to dominate the rifle sub forum, because the ability to carry something that launches supersonic 110 Barnes and that fits into your EDC pack is such a game changer in bringing power to your self defense set-up. That this Barnes launcher is classified as a pistol, with no special paperwork required is icing on the cake.

3) I just drove a vehicle a few hours up to Las Vegas and returned in another vehicle. No way would I tote a separate rifle case on that kind of trip, but the Rattler came along in my GR1 along with my other day trip essentials. Fitting into your regular day pack makes it work, and that means it is available. A really cool thing at home locked up in the safe isn’t all that useful.

4) Knights has the .300 upper going back to the factory, and they don’t want their SR-30 pistol lower back with it. YVK shot his new KAC 9.5 .300 upper yesterday, and it worked fine. My other recently purchased KAC SR-15 and SR-25 rifles work fine, so I chalk my issues up to stuff occasionally happens even with good manufacturers.

5) I think the TLR-7/8 as a combo hand stop and light is viable on the Rattler, because it keeps my support hand from getting too far forward.

6) I wouldn’t pick a 1 moa optic for the Rattler as I see most of its use at pistol distances. A larger dot is less wiggly and is easier for me to pick up quickly. While an RMR may be reliable compared to other pistol optics, I don’t believe it is reliable compared to a rifle optic. I would go with an Aimpoint micro, or similar sealed emitter form factor carbine optic, which will be more reliable, easier to change batteries, and usable in the widest range of conditions like low sun angles, rain and snow.

7) I haven’t figured out what product meets this spec, but I would like a very low profile light and laser that I could mount at 12 o’clock on the top rail of the Rattler without obscuring field of view through the optic.

8) While dry firing and handling the Rattler, the way the Sig brace moved around bugged me, but when live firing I never noticed a difference in how the Rattler recoiled based on how the brace moved around.

[RevolverRob]

Now who's the one pushing people over the edge?

Golden Rule of Gun Forums man -

"Always advise people to buy more guns."

[rob_s]

GJM have you tried one of these? I’m damn tempted.
https://www.surefire.com/xc2-a-irc-ultra-compact-infrared-led-handgun-illuminator-laser-sight.html

[Mike C]

GJM have you tried one of these? I’m damn tempted.
https://www.surefire.com/xc2-a-irc-ultra-compact-infrared-led-handgun-illuminator-laser-sight.html

I was looking at this for a 12 o'clock mount but couldn't find the height. Bezel height was mentioned but I don't know if that it to total heigh and if it will interfere with the Romeo 5 I have on a low mount. Don't we have a member or two with one of these?

[EPF]

A few thoughts.

6) I wouldn’t pick a 1 moa optic for the Rattler as I see most of its use at pistol distances. A larger dot is less wiggly and is easier for me to pick up quickly. While an RMR may be reliable compared to other pistol optics, I don’t believe it is reliable compared to a rifle optic. I would go with an Aimpoint micro, or similar sealed emitter form factor carbine optic, which will be more reliable, easier to change batteries, and usable in the widest range of conditions like low sun angles, rain and snow.

8) While dry firing and handling the Rattler, the way the Sig brace moved around bugged me, but when live firing I never noticed a difference in how the Rattler recoiled based on how the brace moved around.

1. What rmr would you recommend if you had to pick? I have zero experience with pistol optics. I’m going to experiment with the rmr and mount combo because I can’t figure out how to get backup sights and a light I can activate at the same time. I already have a T1 on it I can use if I don’t like the rmr.

2. Now that you say it, I’ve only shot the rattler twice but I also never noticed the brace

[SouthNarc]

A few thoughts.

2) the PDW threads continue to dominate the rifle sub forum, because the ability to carry something that launches supersonic 110 Barnes and that fits into your EDC pack is such a game changer in bringing power to your self defense set-up. That this Barnes launcher is classified as a pistol, with no special paperwork required is icing on the cake.

3) I just drove a vehicle a few hours up to Las Vegas and returned in another vehicle. No way would I tote a separate rifle case on that kind of trip, but the Rattler came along in my GR1 along with my other day trip essentials. Fitting into your regular day pack makes it work, and that means it is available. A really cool thing at home locked up in the safe isn’t all that useful.



That's where I'm at George. I just don't see anything else on the market that is essentially as turn-key as the Rattler. And like you it's common for me to fly into one place, rent a car, drop it off in another place, and then fly home. I'll be doing a run like that next week from MS to VT to NH to MS. I can put the Rattlker in with my sim guns in the Pelican /Storm 2720 hard case GR1 and run with it.



6) I wouldn’t pick a 1 moa optic for the Rattler as I see most of its use at pistol distances. A larger dot is less wiggly and is easier for me to pick up quickly. While an RMR may be reliable compared to other pistol optics, I don’t believe it is reliable compared to a rifle optic. I would go with an Aimpoint micro, or similar sealed emitter form factor carbine optic, which will be more reliable, easier to change batteries, and usable in the widest range of conditions like low sun angles, rain and snow.

7) I haven’t figured out what product meets this spec, but I would like a very low profile light and laser that I could mount at 12 o’clock on the top rail of the Rattler without obscuring field of view through the optic.


So this mount for T1/2...

https://www.anrdesignkydexholster.com/product/anvl-ukon-2-t1/

with this light laser combo..

https://www.surefire.com/illumination/weaponlights/handgun/xvl2-pistol-carbine-light-laser-module-system.html


Should do the trick!

[Wondering Beard]

That's where I'm at George. I just don't see anything else on the market that is essentially as turn-key as the Rattler.

How about the DDM4 PDW (https://danieldefense.com/ddm4-pdw.html)?

It's a bit longer overall but looks to have similar capabilities.

I have no experience with either, and I'm considering buying a 300blk pdw pretty much for the same reasons you have mentioned in your previous posts, but I am tall guy, with correspondingly long arms, and I wonder if the Rattler is not just too short for me, as well as wondering how good the DD offering is.

[SouthNarc]

How about the DDM4 PDW (https://danieldefense.com/ddm4-pdw.html)?

It's a bit longer overall but looks to have similar capabilities.

I have no experience with either, and I'm considering buying a 300blk pdw pretty much for the same reasons you have mentioned in your previous posts, but I am tall guy, with correspondingly long arms, and I wonder if the Rattler is not just too short for me, as well as wondering how good the DD offering is.

Without having hands on one I'd say it's probably a good choice but it's just to big for what I want to do with it.

[OlongJohnson]

How about the DDM4 PDW (https://danieldefense.com/ddm4-pdw.html)?

It's a bit longer overall but looks to have similar capabilities.

I have no experience with either, and I'm considering buying a 300blk pdw pretty much for the same reasons you have mentioned in your previous posts, but I am tall guy, with correspondingly long arms, and I wonder if the Rattler is not just too short for me, as well as wondering how good the DD offering is.

Has been discussed earlier in the thread.

My only issue would be the collapsing rather than folding stock makes the minimum OAL longer. Personally, I'd rather have a folder and a longer barrel, or the option of a can mounted in the carry gear, for the same length.

[Grey]

Uhh...yea man.Fuck it I'll go buy it after I get done with dinner.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[RevolverRob]

So this mount for T1/2...

https://www.anrdesignkydexholster.com/product/anvl-ukon-2-t1/

My only issue there is that they recommend running it as far forward as possible, taking up that extra real-estate on the already short Rattler receiver top. And it's fairly high.

Are folks running a high mount (1/3 or absolute co-witness) or low mounts with the Rattlers? Mike C GJM Pit


with this light laser combo..

https://www.surefire.com/illumination/weaponlights/handgun/xvl2-pistol-carbine-light-laser-module-system.html

Should do the trick!

I saw that and it's pretty trick. The XC2 Light-Laser is a little more compact (shorter at least).

[OlongJohnson]

I dug around the Surefire site earlier and concluded that the main (perhaps only) reason the IR-bearing combos were linked by Rob and Craig was that they had green lasers rather than the red laser of the XC2.

[Grey]

Ordered my KAC upper, time to go figure out what other shit I need... LOOKING AT YOU LAW FOLDER (which is OOS everywhere...). You guys are the worst group of Gunaholics Anonymous...

[El Cid]

Ordered my KAC upper, time to go figure out what other shit I need... LOOKING AT YOU LAW FOLDER (which is OOS everywhere...). You guys are the worst group of Gunaholics Anonymous...

I’ve had wives of friends and coworkers tell them not to talk to me. Lol!

[Grey]

I’ve had wives of friends and coworkers tell them not to talk to me. Lol!

LOL!

Well looks like my Radian lower is all set minus a grip...

I need to build my PWS Mod 2s...

[vandal]

Here’s my Rattler. Built on a AR pistol lower using the Sig MCX AR adapter. Scalarworks lower 1/3 mount with H2. Magpul BUIS. X300 at 12:00 with Unity Tactical switch shroud. Sig finger stop. SB Tac FS1913 brace. Black River Tactical Covert Comp Mini 7.62 linear comp. Reptilla grip.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200507/2b3d3a2ff1301ab14d66c5fcf34c0419.jpg

[Corse]

I think Sig made a 6.75" 300BO barrel for the Gen 1. My lowers a Gen 1. Of course Sig barrels are pricey.

I came across the slightly used Rattler upper prior to buying a MCX. I found a Gen 1 MCX pistol with an 11" 5.56 barrel. Got both for less than a Rattler. Right place / right time.

JW

It seems like these barrels are no longer available.

The shortest I can have my 300 blk barrel cut to is 10”, which puts OAL at 21” with a muzzle device capable of mounting the suppressor.

Too long?

If I could find an upper for a reasonable price I think that would be fine over the cost of a rattler or virtus 9” pistol. Honestly, I think I would like the 6.75” barrel the best.

[RevolverRob]

Ordered my KAC upper, time to go figure out what other shit I need... LOOKING AT YOU LAW FOLDER (which is OOS everywhere...). You guys are the worst group of Gunaholics Anonymous...

Happy to return the favor.


I’ve had wives of friends and coworkers tell them not to talk to me. Lol!

I think you need an APC45, man...what do you think Grey? :eek:

[El Cid]

Happy to return the favor.



I think you need an APC45, man...what do you think Grey? :eek:

Lol! If I got another it would be the FDE 9mm or the new 10mm.

[Grey]

Happy to return the favor.



I think you need an APC45, man...what do you think Grey? :eek:Shut your damn mouth Rob!!

Besides I would buy a 11.5 KAC upper first [emoji1787].
LittleLebowski the SR30 is 5/8x24 threads?

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[RevolverRob]

I dug around the Surefire site earlier and concluded that the main (perhaps only) reason the IR-bearing combos were linked by Rob and Craig was that they had green lasers rather than the red laser of the XC2.

OH...good catch.

I was thinking earlier, “Do I go red laser and green dot MRO. Or a Streamlight with a green laser?”

It just occurred to me, that I could simply run my laser as my backup sighting system. If my dot dies, just look through the tube at the projected dot.

Hmm, will take some experimentation.

[Mike C]

OH...good catch.

I was thinking earlier, “Do I go red laser and green dot MRO. Or a Streamlight with a green laser?”

It just occurred to me, that I could simply run my laser as my backup sighting system. If my dot dies, just look through the tube at the projected dot.

Hmm, will take some experimentation.

It's the reason I stripped the irons. I will say though that I do like the T-1/2 mount Craig posted with the built in irons. Not perfect but could do fine to 25y I imagine maybe further since the front sight is adjustable for elevation. Something like that ICW red dot and laser. You get three systems for sighting and if you spend the extra coin you can get IR slaved to visible. Everything on a package that can run to 200-250 yards in a sub 7.5-8lbs carbine/pistol that fits damn near anywhere is impressive to say the very least.

I'm geeking on this gun hard. I was looking at numbers today and without having run a chrono yet I believe 1785-1805 fps is about what type of velocity we should see on the 5.5" barrel with the 110gr Barnes. I hope to know Sunday for certain but if QuickLoad and the BC are about right and with an expansion threshold of 1300 fps on the Barnes that means we should see expansion close to 180-195 yards or there about.

vandal you don't find the sight height to be too tall?