Let's talk PDW's

[RevolverRob]

At least you’ve got that, my poor ass is the one who’s going to likely be assembling a PSA gun. The Dirt Squirrel referenced in an earlier video looks fun.


So I’m getting the idea that the consensus around here is that unless I’m planning to run a can that I oughtn’t bother with 300BLK. Why is that? Is it because of the shorter barrel and the likelihood of it being dangerously loud?

Not dangerous. Just unpleasant/not fun/tooth rattly loud.

Also, some silencer manufacturers will not warranty a can used on a sub-7” .300BLK depending in ammo. Also, apparently sub-8” .300BLKs may be more marginal running subsonic ammo and especially with a can on the end.

So, if you choose a .300BLK - be aware you’ll probably need to double-up on ears and you may have to tune it to run subsonic ammo in particular.

Oh and also that the sub-8” guns may have a smaller range of effective ammo types (i.e., only one or two rounds that are good performers).

—

So all of those caveats in place - an 8” .300BLK with a LAW folder will get you to around 18” folded up and not have the issues a 5.5” Rattler might have.

Craig hit - the Rattler is kind of niche weapon, but if you’re in that niche, you’re going to like it. I don’t think I’m in that niche. I also don’t think I want to be limited to a couple of choices for terminally effective anti-personnel ammo. I’m leaning the other way from a 5-8” barrel in a PCC, I know virtually every decent hollowpoint will get me 15-18” of penetration, full expansion, and minimal fragmentation. Lighter bullets (e.g. <115 grain) at +P and +P+ velocities might be overdriven, but any current “list” duty/carry ammo should be as near to 100% as it is possible to get in the world of terminal ballistics.

[Clusterfrack]

At least you’ve got that, my poor ass is the one who’s going to likely be assembling a PSA gun. The Dirt Squirrel referenced in an earlier video looks fun.


So I’m getting the idea that the consensus around here is that unless I’m planning to run a can that I oughtn’t bother with 300BLK. Why is that? Is it because of the shorter barrel and the likelihood of it being dangerously loud?

That’s not my opinion. If I am going to have a suppressor on an AR, it will be 5.56, and 10.5-11.5” or longer. But that’s a fairly large gun. The attraction of a 7.5” 300BLK pistol is that it’s small and is a real rifle caliber. If I have to use it defensively, it might have to be without earpro, which would suck.

[LittleLebowski]

That’s not my opinion. If I am going to have a suppressor on an AR, it will be 5.56, and 10.5-11.5” or longer. But that’s a fairly large gun. The attraction of a 7.5” 300BLK pistol is that it’s small and is a real rifle caliber. If I have to use it defensively, it might have to be without earpro, which would suck.

Wolf SD-9, Vox K, or a Omega 9k. I’m really, really not kidding about the PF discount from Hansohn Brothers, PM him, and see.

[HCM]

How many pages ago did we decide that I’m a dirty poor for using a Scorpion Evo and when is Kevin delivering my LAW folder for my .300BO?

We decided that in the chainsaw thread, then withdrew the “dirty” part in the bidet thread.

[Velo Dog]

That's a fairly large bag you're going to need to pack it.

The Mk18 isn't really a PDW.

A Mk18 with a LAW folder barely fits into the working definition that many of us have agreed upon in the thread....and that's 5" shorter than the X95 you're looking at.

I think that means that 20 inches overall is the maximum acceptable length with the stock folded.

The SIG Rattler is 16" folded.

A quick Google search showed many briefcases 16-18 inches wide.52012

[Grey]

Wolf SD-9, Vox K, or a Omega 9k. I’m really, really not kidding about the PF discount from Hansohn Brothers, PM him, and see.

Do I really need 3 cans in jail with HB? Maybe I'll order another one if they manage to find me some Dead Air mounts... I'm still trying to get a damn Q brake for my Vox S. Have the can part, need the barrel part...

[Clusterfrack]

Wolf SD-9, Vox K, or a Omega 9k. I’m really, really not kidding about the PF discount from Hansohn Brothers, PM him, and see.

If I needed another can, I’d definitely take advantage!

[StraitR]

Not dangerous. Just unpleasant/not fun/tooth rattly loud.

Also, some silencer manufacturers will not warranty a can used on a sub-7” .300BLK depending in ammo. Also, apparently sub-8” .300BLKs may be more marginal running subsonic ammo and especially with a can on the end.

So, if you choose a .300BLK - be aware you’ll probably need to double-up on ears and you may have to tune it to run subsonic ammo in particular.

Oh and also that the sub-8” guns may have a smaller range of effective ammo types (i.e., only one or two rounds that are good performers).

—

So all of those caveats in place - an 8” .300BLK with a LAW folder will get you to around 18” folded up and not have the issues a 5.5” Rattler might have.

Craig hit - the Rattler is kind of niche weapon, but if you’re in that niche, you’re going to like it. I don’t think I’m in that niche. I also don’t think I want to be limited to a couple of choices for terminally effective anti-personnel ammo. I’m leaning the other way from a 5-8” barrel in a PCC, I know virtually every decent hollowpoint will get me 15-18” of penetration, full expansion, and minimal fragmentation. Lighter bullets (e.g. <115 grain) at +P and +P+ velocities might be overdriven, but any current “list” duty/carry ammo should be as near to 100% as it is possible to get in the world of terminal ballistics.

ETA: It dawned on me after posting that you were likely talking about "marginal" performance as it pertained to reliability with subs, not ballistics.


Looking at the delta between 16", 10.5", 9", and 8" barrel data for Hornady Sub-X 190gr, I can't see another inch or so making much more of a difference. I won't say the 5.5" Rattler wouldn't suffer some, but clearly the 7.5" and 7" offerings wouldn't be much different than the 8" here.

52013

Here is the Sub-X bullet and gel using a 9" KAC. With the 8" only dropping 9fps, it's probably fair to say a 7-7.5" barrel would get nearly all of this performance.

52015

Link to data... https://www.hornadyle.com/rifle-ammunition/190-gr-sub-x-tap#!/

[LittleLebowski]

If I needed another can, I’d definitely take advantage!

Stop talking crazy. Of course you need a short .30 can.

[LittleLebowski]

Do I really need 3 cans in jail with HB? Maybe I'll order another one if they manage to find me some Dead Air mounts... I'm still trying to get a damn Q brake for my Vox S. Have the can part, need the barrel part...

The Griffin stuff is awesome and Hansohn has it for a great price.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

https://www.recovertactical.com/product/recover-tactical-20-20-stabilizer-kit-for-glock-also-umarex-cybergun/

I preordered one of these... it left Israel on the 31st & will get here eventually I suppose.

Interesting. I don't know anything about these and my only recollection of Recover was that I once made a joke here about how their 1911 chassis gave all the advantages of the 2011, only in a proven single-stack format and without the tolerance issues of a modular grip frame, and the potential evolution of that design.

But what this DOES make me think of is the B&T USW chassis. I had thought there was only a G17 version but behold:

https://www.bt-ag.ch/shop/eng/bt-usw/bt-usw-g20-convertion-kit-for-glock-2021-bt-430220

They make one for the G20 also. Okay, this is now my vote. Fixed mount for your red dot, etc, etc, etc.

Again I get that this may not work well with US laws but for my money, this is the way to do a pistol-calibre PDW.

[Grey]

The Griffin stuff is awesome and Hansohn has it for a great price.

Damn the plan A is out of stock though... hrmm, time to go do some digging around.

[StraitR]

The Griffin stuff is awesome and Hansohn has it for a great price.

I can't stop sending them money for Omega bling and Cherry Bombs.

[RevolverRob]

ETA: It dawned on me after posting that you were likely talking about "marginal" performance as it pertained to reliability with subs, not ballistics.


Looking at the delta between 16", 10.5", 9", and 8" barrel data for Hornady Sub-X 190gr, I can't see another inch or so making much more of a difference. I won't say the 5.5" Rattler wouldn't suffer some, but clearly the 7.5" and 7" offerings wouldn't be much different than the 8" here.

52013

Here is the Sub-X bullet and gel using a 9" KAC. With the 8" only dropping 9fps, it's probably fair to say a 7-7.5" barrel would get nearly all of this performance.

52015

Link to data... https://www.hornadyle.com/rifle-ammunition/190-gr-sub-x-tap#!/

Yes marginal reliability.

That said, I mean those 190 subs perform basically like a big pistol bullet. 17.5” of penetration, expansion to ~0.5”, yes it looks like it tumbled and left a bigger wound tract, but overall, I’d expect similar performance from an 8” barrel from a 230-grain HST...the wound tract won’t be quite as large, but expansion will be better (pretty consistent .8” expansion for .45 HST from 5” barrels).

That just reinforces for me that supersonics are the way to go at least for .300BLK. Which basically means what? The 110-grain A-Max?

[Grey]

I can't stop sending them money for Omega bling and Cherry Bombs.

Stop buying all the damn 1/2x28 cherry bombs! :D

[StraitR]

Stop buying all the damn 1/2x28 cherry bombs! :D

Hey, that wasn't me this time! I bought 5/8x24. ;)


@Hansohn Brothers (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=12052) what's a brother gotta do to get a Whistle Tip? I'm a creature of habit and don't like shopping elsewhere.

[StraitR]

Yes marginal reliability.

That said, I mean those 190 subs perform basically like a big pistol bullet. 17.5” of penetration, expansion to ~0.5”, yes it looks like it tumbled and left a bigger wound tract, but overall, I’d expect similar performance from an 8” barrel from a 230-grain HST...the wound tract won’t be quite as large, but expansion will be better (pretty consistent .8” expansion for .45 HST from 5” barrels).

That just reinforces for me that supersonics are the way to go at least for .300BLK. Which basically means what? The 110-grain A-Max?


I've seen some good reports of the 110 A-Max. Seems a 110gr projectile meant to be a varmint bullet out of a .308 actually performs pretty well at 300blk velocities. I'll see if I can dig some info up. It will likely be in paper form, as Hornady has removed the 110 A-Max 300blk from their LE line (and subsequently their website). Commercial website doesn't go into the same detail.

I'd probably say the supersonic go-to, other than loadings that use the Barnes 110gr TSX, is the Hornady equivalent 110gr GMX (https://www.hornadyle.com/rifle-ammunition/110-gr-gmx-tap#!/).

The two commercial 110gr GMX SKUs are 80879 (Custom) (https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/300-blackout-110-gr-gmx-custom#!/) or 80874 (Full Boar) (https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/300-blackout-110-gr-gmx-full-boar#!/).

ETA: Cleaned up, added links.

[OlongJohnson]

But what this DOES make me think of is the B&T USW chassis. I had thought there was only a G17 version but behold:

https://www.bt-ag.ch/shop/eng/bt-usw/bt-usw-g20-convertion-kit-for-glock-2021-bt-430220

They make one for the G20 also. Okay, this is now my vote. Fixed mount for your red dot, etc, etc, etc.

Again I get that this may not work well with US laws but for my money, this is the way to do a pistol-calibre PDW.

In stock with at least one US retailer.

https://www.eurooptic.com/B-T-USW-G20-Conversion-Kit-for-Glock-40-20-21-with-rail-BT-430220.aspx

[Clusterfrack]

Stop talking crazy. Of course you need a short .30 can.

The TBAC Ultra 5 is pretty sweet...

https://hansohnbrothers.com/shop/thunder-beast/silencers/30-caliber/ultra-5-30/

But... I’m on a 12 step program, and haven’t bought a suppressor for over a year... I’ve got a problem. I know.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200415/99d22a5f9bf1b9088759ba498e8eca59.jpg

[Mike C]

The TBAC Ultra 5 is pretty sweet...

https://hansohnbrothers.com/shop/thunder-beast/silencers/30-caliber/ultra-5-30/

But... I’m on a 12 step program, and haven’t bought a suppressor for over a year... I’ve got a problem. I know.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200415/99d22a5f9bf1b9088759ba498e8eca59.jpg

No, no, no, you've got that all wrong. You have a problem because you haven't bought one in over a year.

[Clusterfrack]

Currently trying to work out at trade of 2 PX4CC's for a DD MK18 pistol, probably not going to happen but it doesn't hurt to try. So as I researching the MK18 its overall length is 28 5/8" which leads me to the IWI site looking at the X95. It's 26.125" Obviously there's no way to put a folding brace on it but I got me thinking if the X95 would be a candidate for a PDW?

Mike

Been meaning to respond to this. The Tavor is compact for a 16” rifle, but it’s not small enough or light enough for the PDW role, IMO. For a 600 yd rifle, it’s hard to beat for the size.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200415/400aafe70ce1881ea788720b4d057cfe.jpg

[OlongJohnson]

Do you do OK with plugs and muffs on that 7.5, or do you really wish it had an Omega 9K threaded on?

[Clusterfrack]

Do you do OK with plugs and muffs on that 7.5, or do you really wish it had an Omega 9K threaded on?

Outside, plugs or muffs. No problem. It’s not that blasty. If it were any longer, I might go with my 11.5” 5.56 & Omega. But, yes... I do wish it had a 4.5” can.

And duck the lot of you for encouraging this.

[OlongJohnson]

52024

[Velo Dog]

That just reinforces for me that supersonics are the way to go at least for .300BLK. Which basically means what? The 110-grain A-Max?

Brass Fetcher ballistic testing of Hornady 110gr V-Max
http://www.silencertalk.com/300AAC/300%20AAC%20Blackout%20test%20results%2006OCT2010. pdf

[StraitR]

Brass Fetcher ballistic testing of Hornady 110gr V-Max
http://www.silencertalk.com/300AAC/300%20AAC%20Blackout%20test%20results%2006OCT2010. pdf

For a projectile originally designed as a light .308win option for varmints, it's a different animal at 300blk velocities, and performs surprisingly well.

Nice find.

[rob_s]

A couple of us have been trying to get the ballistics discussion going in an offshoot thread so as not to have to wade through all the pages of stuff here. In case anyone is interested.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?41537-Has-anyone-seen-ammunition-testing-done-with-very-short-barrel-5-56

[EPF]

Hard to say without fingering it, but the SB version of the rattler folder looks significantly less likely to rotate. Anyone try one?

52030

[KevinB]

At least you’ve got that, my poor ass is the one who’s going to likely be assembling a PSA gun. The Dirt Squirrel referenced in an earlier video looks fun.


So I’m getting the idea that the consensus around here is that unless I’m planning to run a can that I oughtn’t bother with 300BLK. Why is that? Is it because of the shorter barrel and the likelihood of it being dangerously loud?

Anything short is loud.

[Casual Friday]

What did you end up with? I may not be far behind you...

Faxon, then I got the out of stock email so now I'm gonna look around at some other options.

[SouthNarc]

Anything short is loud.


Hey don't get personal!:D

[rob_s]

At least you’ve got that, my poor ass is the one who’s going to likely be assembling a PSA gun. The Dirt Squirrel referenced in an earlier video looks fun.

this is one of those places where their variety of options just gets wholly ridiculous. I actually went there yesterday thinking that if nothing else I could buy a short 300wtf upper to stick on one of my SBRs, and pistol-hippie the thing later on if I liked it. With filtering applied I came up with 15 items of interest, I think, only one of which appears to be in-stock at the moment but which is "on sale" for $110 off ($290 vs list of $400) (https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-8-5-pistol-length-300aac-blackout-1-8-phosphate-7-lightweight-m-lok-upper-with-bcg-ch-5165449132.html).
https://palmettostatearmory.com/ar-15/barreled-upper-assemblies.html?caliber_multi=2029&upper_barrel_length=1400%2C1399%2C2754%2C1401&upper_barrel_profile=1365&upper_rail_length=1717

Figuring out what's what on that list is a mishmosh mess. There are 8 differnt 7.5" barreled uppers there. Eventually they start to make sense if you look at them listed out...
https://palmettostatearmory.com/ar-15/barreled-upper-assemblies.html?caliber_multi=2029&upper_barrel_length=1400%2C1399&upper_barrel_profile=1365&upper_rail_length=1717


PSA 7.5" PHOSPHATE 300AAC BLACKOUT 1/8 2A ARMAMENT M-LOK UPPER - WITH BCG & CH - 516447607

PSA 7.5" PISTOL-LENGTH 300AAC BLACKOUT 1/7 NITRIDE 7" LIGHTWEIGHT M-LOK UPPER WITH BCG & CH - 5165449727
PSA 7.5" PISTOL-LENGTH 300AAC BLACKOUT 1/8 NITRIDE 7" LIGHTWEIGHT M-LOK UPPER WITH BCG & CH - 516447503

PSA 7.5" PISTOL-LENGTH 300AAC BLACKOUT 1/7 PHOSPHATE 7" LIGHTWEIGHT M-LOK UPPER WITH BCG & CH
PSA 7.5" PISTOL-LENGTH 300AAC BLACKOUT 1/8 PHOSPHATE 7" M-LOK UPPER WITH BCG & CH - 5165447965

PSA 7.5" PISTOL-LENGTH 300AAC BLACKOUT 1/8 PHOSPHATE 7" LIGHTWEIGHT M-LOK UPPER WITH BCG & CH - 5165449636
PSA 7.5" 300 BLACKOUT 1:8 PHOSPHATE 7" LIGHTWEIGHT M-LOK UPPER WITH BCG & CH


BLEM PSA 7.5" PISTOL-LENGTH 300AAC BLACKOUT 1/8 PHOSPHATE 7" M-LOK UPPER WITH BCG & CH - 5165447965B

[LittleLebowski]

My PSA 8.5” upper runs suppressed and unsuppressed. I’ve never taken it to a class or anything, but I’m sort of impressed that I have never had to tune it.

[HCountyGuy]

There’s a PSA 8.5” SS barrel with a Sig Romeo 5, PDW brace and non-trash handguard with a hand stop on the local trader for $800. I’m tempted, but also have seen some similarly built Aeros come through recently at a similar price (and quickly sold).

[Pit]

Hard to say without fingering it, but the SB version of the rattler folder looks significantly less likely to rotate. Anyone try one?

52030

I have used both the SB 1913 and Sig Pivoting Contour Folding Brace (PCB)

The SB 1913 brace does not rotate which is a positive. However, the attachment to the pistol is not as robust as the Sig version. Additionally the composite rail extending back to the forearm brace flexes more than the Sig

The Sig PCB forearm brace does rotate. This is a draw back in my eyes. The attachment assembly and rail are more robust.

While it is a remote possibility, I may be engage at close quarters with this weapon. I chose the Sig PCB as I believe it will perform better if I use the weapon to strike an adversary. Plus I feel it has a better chance of staying attached performing retention techniques.

Here's two poor quality photos of the attachment areas for the PCB (larger photo) and the SB1913 I copied from the WEB. The Sig is very stout. As for the rotation, I took mine apart, glued on side down and reassembled. Hasn't moved yet.

JW

[Clusterfrack]

this is one of those places where their variety of options just gets wholly ridiculous. I actually went there yesterday thinking that if nothing else I could buy a short 300wtf upper to stick on one of my SBRs, and pistol-hippie the thing later on if I liked it. With filtering applied I came up with 15 items of interest, I think, only one of which appears to be in-stock at the moment but which is "on sale" for $110 off ($290 vs list of $400) (https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-8-5-pistol-length-300aac-blackout-1-8-phosphate-7-lightweight-m-lok-upper-with-bcg-ch-5165449132.html).
https://palmettostatearmory.com/ar-15/barreled-upper-assemblies.html?caliber_multi=2029&upper_barrel_length=1400%2C1399%2C2754%2C1401&upper_barrel_profile=1365&upper_rail_length=1717

Figuring out what's what on that list is a mishmosh mess. There are 8 differnt 7.5" barreled uppers there. Eventually they start to make sense if you look at them listed out...
https://palmettostatearmory.com/ar-15/barreled-upper-assemblies.html?caliber_multi=2029&upper_barrel_length=1400%2C1399&upper_barrel_profile=1365&upper_rail_length=1717


PSA 7.5" PHOSPHATE 300AAC BLACKOUT 1/8 2A ARMAMENT M-LOK UPPER - WITH BCG & CH - 516447607

PSA 7.5" PISTOL-LENGTH 300AAC BLACKOUT 1/7 NITRIDE 7" LIGHTWEIGHT M-LOK UPPER WITH BCG & CH - 5165449727
PSA 7.5" PISTOL-LENGTH 300AAC BLACKOUT 1/8 NITRIDE 7" LIGHTWEIGHT M-LOK UPPER WITH BCG & CH - 516447503

PSA 7.5" PISTOL-LENGTH 300AAC BLACKOUT 1/7 PHOSPHATE 7" LIGHTWEIGHT M-LOK UPPER WITH BCG & CH
PSA 7.5" PISTOL-LENGTH 300AAC BLACKOUT 1/8 PHOSPHATE 7" M-LOK UPPER WITH BCG & CH - 5165447965

PSA 7.5" PISTOL-LENGTH 300AAC BLACKOUT 1/8 PHOSPHATE 7" LIGHTWEIGHT M-LOK UPPER WITH BCG & CH - 5165449636
PSA 7.5" 300 BLACKOUT 1:8 PHOSPHATE 7" LIGHTWEIGHT M-LOK UPPER WITH BCG & CH


BLEM PSA 7.5" PISTOL-LENGTH 300AAC BLACKOUT 1/8 PHOSPHATE 7" M-LOK UPPER WITH BCG & CH - 5165447965B

This is the one I have. I threw away the handguard, and used a BCM BGG and CH.


https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-7-5-300-blackout-1-8-phosphate-7-lightweight-m-lok-upper-with-bcg-ch.html

[GJM]

To my ears, an unsuppressed eight inch .300 with Barnes 110 sounds like a sixteen inch 5.56. Anyone have relative decibels?

[Clusterfrack]

To my ears, an unsuppressed eight inch .300 with Barnes 110 sounds like a sixteen inch 5.56. Anyone have relative decibels?

No, but I agree. My buddy commented on that as well.

[Pit]

Everyone ignores me and the Rattler as soon as one of the SRT guys lets go with one round of 5.56 from their 10.5 BMC carbines. Those thing flat bark.

JW

[ranger]

I have avoided 300BO for a very long time but this thread is determined to drag me into yet another caliber to load.

[rob_s]

re: 300blk >9" barrels and twist rates...

Are there guidelines on the relationship between twist rate and bullet weight?

[GJM]

I have avoided 300BO for a very long time but this thread is determined to drag me into yet another caliber to load.

As a non LE/mil user, while I use 5.56 for training, I think .300 BLK is incredibly useful because of how it performs out of a short barrel, which gives you a very compact thing that launches .30 caliber Barnes projectiles at a velocity likely to expand at reasonable engagement distances. That it might do double duty and penetrate a bear’s skull is icing on the cake.

[EPF]

I just ordered half a case of the Barnes 110 TX stuff recommended earlier. Any recommendations for cheaper general training ammo out of the 5.5 inch rattler?

[LittleLebowski]

To my ears, an unsuppressed eight inch .300 with Barnes 110 sounds like a sixteen inch 5.56. Anyone have relative decibels?

Hansohn Brothers

[Pit]

I just ordered half a case of the Barnes 110 TX stuff recommended earlier. Any recommendations for cheaper general training ammo out of the 5.5 inch rattler?

I picked up a case of Magtech 123gr ball. It functions fine in my Rattler but it is not very accurate. I lucked into a couple of hundred Hornady 110 V Max rounds at a great price. They are accurate. I saw your earlier post on those for social use. Interesting. I'm using the GMX round.

I don't reload nor does my reloading buddy. He's not interested in doing 300 for me. I keep hoping the 300 blkout will gain in popularity but with the Mil looking at other calibers (6.8 etc), this is probably not the case.

JW

[EPF]

I picked up a case of Magtech 123gr ball. It functions fine in my Rattler but it is not very accurate. I lucked into a couple of hundred Hornady 110 V Max rounds at a great price. They are accurate. I saw your earlier post on those for social use. Interesting. I'm using the GMX round.

I don't reload nor does my reloading buddy. He's not interested in doing 300 for me. I keep hoping the 300 blkout will gain in popularity but with the Mil looking at other calibers (6.8 etc), this is probably not the case.

JW

Thanks. Your posts have been extremely helpful on the rattler front. Reloading is cool but it’s not for me so I’m stuck with factory options. I guess I should have asked if there were any ammo characteristics to stay away from when choosing a cheaper training alternative.

[StraitR]

this is one of those places where their variety of options just gets wholly ridiculous. I actually went there yesterday thinking that if nothing else I could buy a short 300wtf upper to stick on one of my SBRs, and pistol-hippie the thing later on if I liked it. With filtering applied I came up with 15 items of interest, I think, only one of which appears to be in-stock at the moment but which is "on sale" for $110 off ($290 vs list of $400) (https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-8-5-pistol-length-300aac-blackout-1-8-phosphate-7-lightweight-m-lok-upper-with-bcg-ch-5165449132.html).
https://palmettostatearmory.com/ar-15/barreled-upper-assemblies.html?caliber_multi=2029&upper_barrel_length=1400%2C1399%2C2754%2C1401&upper_barrel_profile=1365&upper_rail_length=1717

Figuring out what's what on that list is a mishmosh mess. There are 8 differnt 7.5" barreled uppers there. Eventually they start to make sense if you look at them listed out...
https://palmettostatearmory.com/ar-15/barreled-upper-assemblies.html?caliber_multi=2029&upper_barrel_length=1400%2C1399&upper_barrel_profile=1365&upper_rail_length=1717


PSA 7.5" PHOSPHATE 300AAC BLACKOUT 1/8 2A ARMAMENT M-LOK UPPER - WITH BCG & CH - 516447607

PSA 7.5" PISTOL-LENGTH 300AAC BLACKOUT 1/7 NITRIDE 7" LIGHTWEIGHT M-LOK UPPER WITH BCG & CH - 5165449727
PSA 7.5" PISTOL-LENGTH 300AAC BLACKOUT 1/8 NITRIDE 7" LIGHTWEIGHT M-LOK UPPER WITH BCG & CH - 516447503

PSA 7.5" PISTOL-LENGTH 300AAC BLACKOUT 1/7 PHOSPHATE 7" LIGHTWEIGHT M-LOK UPPER WITH BCG & CH
PSA 7.5" PISTOL-LENGTH 300AAC BLACKOUT 1/8 PHOSPHATE 7" M-LOK UPPER WITH BCG & CH - 5165447965

PSA 7.5" PISTOL-LENGTH 300AAC BLACKOUT 1/8 PHOSPHATE 7" LIGHTWEIGHT M-LOK UPPER WITH BCG & CH - 5165449636
PSA 7.5" 300 BLACKOUT 1:8 PHOSPHATE 7" LIGHTWEIGHT M-LOK UPPER WITH BCG & CH


BLEM PSA 7.5" PISTOL-LENGTH 300AAC BLACKOUT 1/8 PHOSPHATE 7" M-LOK UPPER WITH BCG & CH - 5165447965B

Aero has some options...

https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m4e1-threaded-complete-upper-8in-300blk-atlas-sone

https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m4e1-threaded-8in-300-blackout-complete-upper-atlas-rone

[OlongJohnson]

I just ordered half a case of the Barnes 110 TX stuff recommended earlier. Any recommendations for cheaper general training ammo out of the 5.5 inch rattler?

BLK is a cartridge where the component costs may actually pay for reloading with less than a Dillon or equivalent. Seems like most BLK factory ammo is near a buck a round or so. You can pick up appropriate bullets in the $0.25 range, and Starline has brass that is widely regarded as among the best and most durable (for reloading additional cycles). Powder and primers don't add much.

[rob_s]

Aero has some options...

https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m4e1-threaded-complete-upper-8in-300blk-atlas-sone

https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m4e1-threaded-8in-300-blackout-complete-upper-atlas-rone

that's pretty funny. when you posted the first one I was going to ask if anyone knew if a light and sight would fit on the front rail section, and then you added the second with the continuous rail, haha. :cool:

[EPF]

BLK is a cartridge where the component costs may actually pay for reloading with less than a Dillon or equivalent. Seems like most BLK factory ammo is near a buck a round or so. You can pick up appropriate bullets in the $0.25 range, and Starline has brass that is widely regarded as among the best and most durable (for reloading additional cycles). Powder and primers don't add much.

I think reloading is cool and makes sense in .300 BLK but it’s just not for me.

[StraitR]

that's pretty funny. when you posted the first one I was going to ask if anyone knew if a light and sight would fit on the front rail section, and then you added the second with the continuous rail, haha. :cool:

Haha. I actually posted the wrong model first, meaning to add the continuous rail model. Hitting the link, and seeing my mistake, I added the second one and "options". :D

[rob_s]

Haha. I actually posted the wrong model first, meaning to add the continuous rail model. Hitting the link, and seeing my mistake, I added the second one and "options". :D

Problem is, they are probably still 2x the price of the PSA once you add a BCG and CH.

[StraitR]

Problem is, they are probably still 2x the price of the PSA once you add a BCG and CH.

I don't count the CH, because it would like be GI and replaced anyway, but yeah at good BCM BCG will set you back $190.

I'll donate a GI CH if it makes a difference. ;)

My only issue with the Aero upper is the rail design. No idea why they don't do Mlok on all flats, when that useless two-hole design has to take longer (aka cost more) to manufacture.

[Velo Dog]

I think that means that 20 inches overall is the maximum acceptable length with the stock folded.

The SIG Rattler is 16" folded.

A quick Google search showed many briefcases 16-18 inches wide.

Not trying to take the PDW thread in a different direction, but simply as a point of comparison, a Model S&W500 with an 8.38" barrel has a 15" overall length and weighs 69.1 ounces.
52050

[rob_s]

I think this is the one I want, being that I don't know anything
PSA 7.5" PISTOL-LENGTH 300AAC BLACKOUT 1/7 NITRIDE 7" LIGHTWEIGHT M-LOK UPPER WITH BCG & CH - 5165449727 (https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-7-5-pistol-length-300aac-blackout-1-8-nitride-7-lightweight-m-lok-upper-with-bcg-ch-5165449727.html)

https://palmettostatearmory.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/thumbnail/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/5/1/5165449727.jpg

[rob_s]

i wish I could remember what upper Silvers sent me for testing the 300blk back when it first rolled out. I put about 1k rounds of pre-production 300blk ammo through that upper, a lot of it through an AAC SDN6 when they first came out at a Pat Rogers class. Ammo even came in a white box, IIRC.

[rob_s]

i wish I could remember what upper Silvers sent me for testing the 300blk back when it first rolled out. I put about 1k rounds of pre-production 300blk ammo through that upper, a lot of it through an AAC SDN6 when they first came out at a Pat Rogers class. Ammo even came in a white box, IIRC.

looks like it must have been a 9.5" given the 10.5" and 11.5" known barrel lengths in the first photo (and the trip down memory road looking for this photo has been entertaining! I had no idea it had been a decade since I did my testing with the 300 BLK but it was a 2010 EAG course where I ran this upper!)

52057


52058


eta: here's a fun one!
52059

[Doc_Glock]

Aero has some options...

https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m4e1-threaded-complete-upper-8in-300blk-atlas-sone

https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/m4e1-threaded-8in-300-blackout-complete-upper-atlas-rone

That is essentially the upper I use for 300BLK. Zero functional problems. I did run it with a suppressor and bent a parts kit bolt catch. I don't know if it was cheap parts or to high a bolt speed. After replacing the bolt catch and adding a heavier buffer I have had no further problems. Either way I don't hold the upper responsible.

[El Cid]

looks like it must have been a 9.5" given the 10.5" and 11.5" known barrel lengths in the first photo (and the trip down memory road looking for this photo has been entertaining! I had no idea it had been a decade since I did my testing with the 300 BLK but it was a 2010 EAG course where I ran this upper!)

52057


52058


eta: here's a fun one!
52059
Is that a white or silver Aimpoint??

[Sal Picante]

Seems like the whole point of the 9mm PDW is to be able to shoot better than with your pistol. If you can not shoot significantly better with it, you might as well just have your pistol or a second pistol in your pack.

This was very well stated.

(Especially since I'm a retard with a rifle...)

[rob_s]

Found it! (https://www.brownells.com/firearms/handguns/semi-auto/scr-pistol-300-blk-m-lok-7-25--prod116841.aspx)

https://cdn-us-ec.yottaa.net/5733cd75312e585860006582/www.brownells.com/v~4b.79/userdocs/products/p_100026295_4.jpg?yocs=k_

[GJM]

I did some shooting this afternoon that is relevant to this thread. I was on a 300 yard range, and put one B8 at 100 yards and another at 200 yards. Caveats are I don’t consider myself particularly proficient at shooting groups with a rifle, and I was in a hurry to test a number of things in the time I had available. All my groups were five rounds.

First thing I shot was my APC9 Pro, which has a 2 moa T2. I was using Gold Dot 124+P and 24 round OEM Glock magazines. Zero was on at 25 yards, as it is how I zero my PCCs and shotguns. Here is a test group I shot from sitting at 25 yards.

52084

Next I shot at 100 yards, monopoding off the Glock magazine. I was surprised to see my rounds were a few inches high and left at 100, which didn’t jive with my expectation. I repeated a group at 100 yards, and the rounds were right where I expected, which suggests the APC was sensitive to the Glock mag resting on a hard surface. Here is the group from sitting.

52085

Next I shot a relatively new 16 inch SR-15 at 100 yards. It had an Aimpoint Pro and I was using military ball. Not a PDW but it was interesting to benchmark how it felt shooting. Here it was at 100 yards as I was working on a zero.

52086

I shot it at 200 yards, and was wishing I had a LPV. It shot about a six inch group, and I am not sure how much of that was me, the non magnified optic or the ball ammo. I was whacking a ram at 300 yards at will with it, by holding right at the top of the ram.

Next I shot my AAC eight inch .300 BLK at 100 yards. Here is the group and the “pistol.”

52087

52088

Next I shot it at 200 yards. You can see how the rounds drop at that distance — a quick wag is to add 100 yards to your 5.56 trajectory to approximate .300 BLK in the 50-250 envelope. I was able to hit the ram at 300 by holding well over its back. I really liked shooting the .300, and under the covered roof, it sounded similar or less concussive than the 16 inch 5.56. Here is the 200 yard .300 group.

52089

Next I shot my 16 inch SR-25 with 175 grain Federal at 200 yards. I am still working on a zero with that load, but this is what I got. The SR25 feels like a howitzer compared to carrying the eight inch AAC.

52090

Finally, since we are comparing PDW performance to pistols, I shot my iron sighted P2000 with Gold Dot at 100 yards. It has HD sights, and I struggled with elevation, as I had to cover the target, but the windage is pretty darn good, and it would impress someone standing at 100 yards.

52091

All in all, it was a pretty fun session. The APC9 Pro was good to 100, but at 200 the holdover was brutal. The .300 eight inch AAC was a joy to shoot, and I think the 110 Barnes is an optimal combination of ballistics, and from what I have read, terminal ballistics.

[Caballoflaco]

Do you guys with .300 blackout and 5.56 guns use a different brand or color of magazine to differentiate caliber?

[Clusterfrack]

Do you guys with .300 blackout and .556 guns use a different brand or color of magazine to differentiate caliber?

I'm using 300 BLK specific magazines from Magpul and Lancer. They are identified by some differences in color and texture. I label them with silver pen. I've also verified that none of my 300BLK loads will chamber in a 5.56 AR.

I tried shooting 300 BLK in some older Gen2 5.56 PMags, and had feed issues and the dreaded 2nd round tip-up (which jams the mag). The 5.56 Lancers seem to work ok with 300BLK, but I've moved to dedicated mags.

[GJM]

Do you guys with .300 blackout and 5.56 guns use a different brand or color of magazine to differentiate caliber?

52100

[El Cid]

Do you guys with .300 blackout and 5.56 guns use a different brand or color of magazine to differentiate caliber?

Colored duct tape.

[LittleLebowski]

Do you guys with .300 blackout and 5.56 guns use a different brand or color of magazine to differentiate caliber?

I take those rubber bands used on produce (like broccoli) and slap them on .300BO mags.

[Clusterfrack]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200416/695c48cd1928d2cf83fdf4a96fa10a28.jpeg

[OlongJohnson]

If this guy I know who might be thinking about a .300 BLK pistol was waffling between an 8-in Wilson Combat barrel and an 8.5-inch Noveske barrel that comes with a headspaced bolt, are there any strong preferences I could pass along to him? Both are stainless. The dude told me that the Wilson barrel is a lighter profile; that and the shorter length will work a little nicer if he one day hangs a can off the end. The Wilson would mean picking up an ARP BCG complete with Mr. Beene's 9310 "superbolt."

[Grey]

If this guy I know who might be thinking about a .300 BLK pistol was waffling between an 8-in Wilson Combat barrel and an 8.5-inch Noveske barrel that comes with a headspaced bolt, are there any strong preferences I could pass along to him? Both are stainless. The dude told me that the Wilson barrel is a lighter profile; that and the shorter length will work a little nicer if he one day hangs a can off the end. The Wilson would mean picking up an ARP BCG complete with Mr. Beene's 9310 "superbolt."Id go noveske all day between those two options.

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[GearFondler]

Found it! (https://www.brownells.com/firearms/handguns/semi-auto/scr-pistol-300-blk-m-lok-7-25--prod116841.aspx)

https://cdn-us-ec.yottaa.net/5733cd75312e585860006582/www.brownells.com/v~4b.79/userdocs/products/p_100026295_4.jpg?yocs=k_Struggling to decide if that's the dumbest or the coolest gun ever... Perchance it is both?

[rob_s]

Is that a white or silver Aimpoint??

Silver.

IIRC from the first shot where they introduced the mini Aimpoint they had the silver ones at the sport-side booth and black only at the tactical-side booth. I think the silver were meant for archery or something? They wound up not being very popular and at the end you could get them for much cheaper.

I don’t have it anymore.

[rob_s]

Do you guys with .300 blackout and 5.56 guns use a different brand or color of magazine to differentiate caliber?

As shown above, I was one of the early testers of 300blk and I experienced a lot of issues with the early versions of the Ammo in standard AR mags. Hence the 300blk-marked Remington mag shown in the pic above, which I received after I bitched about the problem. You can also see, however, in the pics that my mag in the gun has brown tape around it, which was my way of marking the 300-loaded mags.

[El Cid]

Struggling to decide if that's the dumbest or the coolest gun ever... Perchance it is both?

And it's a safe bet that somewhere out there is a company making holsters for it... lol!


Silver.

IIRC from the first shot where they introduced the mini Aimpoint they had the silver ones at the sport-side booth and black only at the tactical-side booth. I think the silver were meant for archery or something? They wound up not being very popular and at the end you could get them for much cheaper.

I don’t have it anymore.

Pretty cool. Thanks!

[Corse]

If this guy I know who might be thinking about a .300 BLK pistol was waffling between an 8-in Wilson Combat barrel and an 8.5-inch Noveske barrel that comes with a headspaced bolt, are there any strong preferences I could pass along to him? Both are stainless. The dude told me that the Wilson barrel is a lighter profile; that and the shorter length will work a little nicer if he one day hangs a can off the end. The Wilson would mean picking up an ARP BCG complete with Mr. Beene's 9310 "superbolt."

I had excellent accuracy with a 16” Wilson barrel when I first tried 300 blk.

[Corse]

Silver.

IIRC from the first shot where they introduced the mini Aimpoint they had the silver ones at the sport-side booth and black only at the tactical-side booth. I think the silver were meant for archery or something? They wound up not being very popular and at the end you could get them for much cheaper.

I don’t have it anymore.

I bought one super cheap a long time ago also. Still have it and I put one of those rubber covers on it.

[rob_s]

Did we ever settle the "best can for a 300blk upper <8in" discussion?

[Mike C]

Did we ever settle the "best can for a 300blk upper <8in" discussion?

The Omega 9k will handle subs and supers without issue and is very short at 4.7 ish inches. Also light, less than 1/2 pound IIRC. I ran one for a year straight shooting a variety of subs and supers but mostly supers. No issues at all what so ever.

[rob_s]

The Omega 9k will handle subs and supers without issue and is very short at 4.7 ish inches. Also light, less than 1/2 pound IIRC. I ran one for a year straight shooting a variety of subs and supers but mostly supers. No issues at all what so ever.

Ideally I'd love to find something that can handle up to .308 out of a bolt gun but also be as small/light as possible to go on a 300blk PDW (which should then theoretically mean it'd work on everything in between, which for me is .223 and 7.62x39).

[Default.mp3]

Ideally I'd love to find something that can handle up to .308 out of a bolt gun but also be as small/light as possible to go on a 300blk PDW (which should then theoretically mean it'd work on everything in between, which for me is .223 and 7.62x39).Maybe something like the Rugged Radiant762 or Micro30? I bring up Rugged over Dead Air only because of the modularity aspect, which I would think you would be interested in given the wide range of use cases you're looking at.

[BobM]

Ideally I'd love to find something that can handle up to .308 out of a bolt gun but also be as small/light as possible to go on a 300blk PDW (which should then theoretically mean it'd work on everything in between, which for me is .223 and 7.62x39).
That’s what I’m looking for also. It might be more effective to end up with two suppressors.

[WobblyPossum]

Ideally I'd love to find something that can handle up to .308 out of a bolt gun but also be as small/light as possible to go on a 300blk PDW (which should then theoretically mean it'd work on everything in between, which for me is .223 and 7.62x39).

The Energetic Arms Vox K has no barrel length restrictions. It’s listed as 9.9oz and 4.4” long using the direct thread end cap. It’s one of the suppressors threaded to accept all sorts of popular industry attachment methods.

[Bratch]

Silver.

IIRC from the first shot where they introduced the mini Aimpoint they had the silver ones at the sport-side booth and black only at the tactical-side booth. I think the silver were meant for archery or something? They wound up not being very popular and at the end you could get them for much cheaper.

I don’t have it anymore.

It was the R1 same as the H1 but in silver instead of black. I picked up two when they were closing them out years ago and I wish I would have bought a few more. There is one on top of my Scorpion Micro somewhere in this thread.


https://www.aimpoint.com/product/aimpointr-micro-r-1/

[StraitR]

Do you guys with .300 blackout and 5.56 guns use a different brand or color of magazine to differentiate caliber?


I'm using 300 BLK specific magazines from Magpul and Lancer. They are identified by some differences in color and texture. I label them with silver pen. I've also verified that none of my 300BLK loads will chamber in a 5.56 AR.

I tried shooting 300 BLK in some older Gen2 5.56 PMags, and had feed issues and the dreaded 2nd round tip-up (which jams the mag). The 5.56 Lancers seem to work ok with 300BLK, but I've moved to dedicated mags.

I've been patiently waiting for the Lancer 20rd and 30rd smoke colored mags to come back in-stock at the few places I like to shop.

Both are back in stock at Primary arms. $16.30 for either 20rd or 30rd. I picked up a few of each

PF affiliate links...

20rd.... https://www.primaryarms.com/lancer-systems-l5-awm-20-round-300-blk-ar-15-magazine-translucent-smoke

30rd.... https://www.primaryarms.com/lancer-l5awm-30rnd-300blk-magazine-smoke-999-000-4280-01

[Mike C]

Ideally I'd love to find something that can handle up to .308 out of a bolt gun but also be as small/light as possible to go on a 300blk PDW (which should then theoretically mean it'd work on everything in between, which for me is .223 and 7.62x39).

Only thing I can think of presently that I would be willing to plunk money down on right now might be the Omega 36M, (multi-caliber any ways). Even though I have no experience with it I have an Omega 9k and the Omega30 and both sound great and have worked really well, I just really hate the ASR. I only say Omega36M because it would probably fit the bill for most of what you are wanting. It's 4.9" with direct thread in the short config but still has lots of mounting options. You could run it on just about anything you'd want, 9mm, 300 B.O., up to .338 LM and everything in between, (so your AK for sure). Three different mounting options but the best are the KEYMO mount or Plan B. You can order it with those mounts from a few different vendors just the way you'd want it.


ETA: DanM brought up a good point about the Vox K. Which looks awesome. It would fit the bill if you don't need the ability to run 9mm from the can.


Maybe something like the Rugged Radiant762 or Micro30? I bring up Rugged over Dead Air only because of the modularity aspect, which I would think you would be interested in given the wide range of use cases you're looking at.

Modularity is not all it's cracked up to be. I've got a Micro30 and it's a neat can. But it's only ever shot in the short config. Everyone I know with a modular can literally only ever shoots it in the short config. I like the can and I'd own more of them if there were more options for the mounting system but the modularity isn't even a consideration any more. I just want the can to be 5-5.5" or less in length and more now than ever I want mounting options.

[El Cid]

Ideally I'd love to find something that can handle up to .308 out of a bolt gun but also be as small/light as possible to go on a 300blk PDW (which should then theoretically mean it'd work on everything in between, which for me is .223 and 7.62x39).



That’s what I’m looking for also. It might be more effective to end up with two suppressors.

I'm very interested in snagging a Trash Panda one of these days. It's Titanium, has no bbl restrictions, and comes with two muzzle devices (one for .308 and one for .223) which saves a couple hundred or more compared to some other makers. I've seen it advertised for around $900.
https://www.liveqordie.com/products/trash-panda-by-q/

I was able to shoot my 8.5" 300BLK with the Omega 9K recently. It wasn't horribly loud - though too loud to use without ear pro IMO. I'm probably going to leave it on the APC9 and leave the Hybrid on the 300BLK. if I get a Trash Panda one day I'll test it on the 300BLK to see if I can make better use of it than the Hybrid. It's all about finding a balance between length and weight so the gun isn't too nose heavy. Thankfully I don't have to carry it up the Hindu Kush - just from the house to the car / range / etc.

[BobM]

It was the R1 same as the H1 but in silver instead of black. I picked up two when they were closing them out years ago and I wish I would have bought a few more. There is one on top of my Scorpion Micro somewhere in this thread.


https://www.aimpoint.com/product/aimpointr-micro-r-1/

I got one when Midway was closing them out. I too wish I’d bought a couple more. It’s now covered with an OD Tango Down cover.

[rob_s]

Only thing I can think of presently that I would be willing to plunk money down on right now might be the Omega 36M, (multi-caliber any ways). Even though I have no experience with it I have an Omega 9k and the Omega30 and both sound great and have worked really well, I just really hate the ASR. I only say Omega36M because it would probably fit the bill for most of what you are wanting. It's 4.9" with direct thread in the short config but still has lots of mounting options. You could run it on just about anything you'd want, 9mm, 300 B.O., up to .338 LM and everything in between, (so your AK for sure). Three different mounting options but the best are the KEYMO mount or Plan B. You can order it with those mounts from a few different vendors just the way you'd want it.


ETA: DanM brought up a good point about the Vox K. Which looks awesome. It's would fit the bill if you don't need the ability to run 9mm from the can.



Modularity is not all it's cracked up to be. I've got a Micro30 and it's a neat can. But it's only ever shot in the short config. Everyone I know with a modular can literally only ever shoots it in the short config. I like the can and I'd own more of them if there were more options for the mounting system but the modularity isn't even a consideration any more. I just want the can to be 5-5.5" or less in length.

I don't "need" to shoot 9mm from it, I already have a 9mm can on my PCC, but it wouldn't hurt particularly if it was able to be shot on a pistol.

My thinking has always been that I want one can that lives on my dedicated suppressed "home defense" AR in the safe, but when I want to go shoot other guns I can just take it off and move it over. I don't really want to be changing end-caps (not sure if I mid adding extensions, having never done it), but ideally I'd like to unscrew it from the HD gun, screw it on to the FH/Brake on a different gun, and go shoot. Bugging out for a hurricane and want to take my PDW? Great, unscrew from SBR, screw on to PDW, put in bag, chamber round (sorry! :P ) and move on.

I realize I'm not going to get "ideal" in any application by doing this. But ok across all of the applications is my version of "ideal" in this case. I'd want to be able to have it attached via a brake mount to the HD 5.56 AR, have compatible FH mounts on all other 5.56 ARs and the AK, a .30 brake mount on the PDW in 300 blk, and a .30 cal FH mount on the .308 "practical rifle", and maybe the SR25 I'm going to buy when I win the lotto ;)

So basically I want/need .30 cal brake and FH in a variety of threads, 5.56 brakes and FH in just one thread, and a can that (spitballing here) doesn't add more than 4-5" past the end of the muzzle device (4-6" OAL?) and weighs in under 10 oz (under 8 would be better, i think, based on no idea if that's even a thing). Durability is less of an issue because it's going to get used rarely at most. Which again is why I want one so-so can rather than 6 ideal cans.

[TGS]

What options do we have for .458 SOCOM and .50 Beowulf in the 4.5"-7.5" range?

[Bart Carter]

PF affiliate links...

Quick tutorial on using PF affiliate links?

Does this get PF some profit sharing? I'm all for that. :)

Should have thought of this long ago.

[Bart Carter]

...I was able to shoot my 8.5" 300BLK with the Omega 9K recently. It wasn't horribly loud - though too loud to use without ear pro IMO...

Subsonic was too loud? I thought that was supposed to be quieter than 9mm.

[StraitR]

Quick tutorial on using PF affiliate links?

Does this get PF some profit sharing? I'm all for that. :)

Should have thought of this long ago.

Correct. Use the links to PF affiliates in the tool bar at the top of the page, and PF gets a small kick back.

52141

[DiscipulusArmorum]

I don't "need" to shoot 9mm from it, I already have a 9mm can on my PCC, but it wouldn't hurt particularly if it was able to be shot on a pistol.

My thinking has always been that I want one can that lives on my dedicated suppressed "home defense" AR in the safe, but when I want to go shoot other guns I can just take it off and move it over. I don't really want to be changing end-caps (not sure if I mid adding extensions, having never done it), but ideally I'd like to unscrew it from the HD gun, screw it on to the FH/Brake on a different gun, and go shoot. Bugging out for a hurricane and want to take my PDW? Great, unscrew from SBR, screw on to PDW, put in bag, chamber round (sorry! :P ) and move on.

I realize I'm not going to get "ideal" in any application by doing this. But ok across all of the applications is my version of "ideal" in this case. I'd want to be able to have it attached via a brake mount to the HD 5.56 AR, have compatible FH mounts on all other 5.56 ARs and the AK, a .30 brake mount on the PDW in 300 blk, and a .30 cal FH mount on the .308 "practical rifle", and maybe the SR25 I'm going to buy when I win the lotto ;)

So basically I want/need .30 cal brake and FH in a variety of threads, 5.56 brakes and FH in just one thread, and a can that (spitballing here) doesn't add more than 4-5" past the end of the muzzle device (4-6" OAL?) and weighs in under 10 oz (under 8 would be better, i think, based on no idea if that's even a thing). Durability is less of an issue because it's going to get used rarely at most. Which again is why I want one so-so can rather than 6 ideal cans.

Resonator K? (https://yhm.net/the-resonator-k-30-cal.html) There's also the R9 (https://yhm.net/r9-9mm.html) that's supposed to be out this Summer, but that's geared toward 9mm applications and has more stringent barrel restrictions than the dedicated rifle cans.

[Mike C]

I don't "need" to shoot 9mm from it, I already have a 9mm can on my PCC, but it wouldn't hurt particularly if it was able to be shot on a pistol.

My thinking has always been that I want one can that lives on my dedicated suppressed "home defense" AR in the safe, but when I want to go shoot other guns I can just take it off and move it over. I don't really want to be changing end-caps (not sure if I mid adding extensions, having never done it), but ideally I'd like to unscrew it from the HD gun, screw it on to the FH/Brake on a different gun, and go shoot. Bugging out for a hurricane and want to take my PDW? Great, unscrew from SBR, screw on to PDW, put in bag, chamber round (sorry! :P ) and move on.

I realize I'm not going to get "ideal" in any application by doing this. But ok across all of the applications is my version of "ideal" in this case. I'd want to be able to have it attached via a brake mount to the HD 5.56 AR, have compatible FH mounts on all other 5.56 ARs and the AK, a .30 brake mount on the PDW in 300 blk, and a .30 cal FH mount on the .308 "practical rifle", and maybe the SR25 I'm going to buy when I win the lotto ;)

So basically I want/need .30 cal brake and FH in a variety of threads, 5.56 brakes and FH in just one thread, and a can that (spitballing here) doesn't add more than 4-5" past the end of the muzzle device (4-6" OAL?) and weighs in under 10 oz (under 8 would be better, i think, based on no idea if that's even a thing). Durability is less of an issue because it's going to get used rarely at most. Which again is why I want one so-so can rather than 6 ideal cans.

I think what you've outline is spot on and practical enough that one can could do it. I don't care about getting all the decibel reduction in the world any more just a decent amount but with mounting simplicity. It sounds like we're heading in the same direction. I'm sick of multiple silencers and FH/Breaks changing end caps and crap like that. I want 1-2 cans max that do everything I need without having to change a bunch of crap around all the time. The thing that appeals to me about the Omega 36M is Cherry bomb breaks for everything, PPC 9mm, 300 B.O. (if I end up with another upper in this caliber), 5.56 and .308 for Bolt gun or SR25, (I too love the newer ones). Plus the 36M can go on pistol if really desired. All this with just two attachments. Weight is not exactly where you or I would want and while I agree that the 8oz would really be ideal the 36M isn't that far off. Only real downside for me is I hate breaks unless it's on a bolt gun, sadly I would really want a FH and I don't think Q makes one. As of right now though I think this is something I am willing to live with though because I own nothing less than 14.5" in 5.56 anymore so it would probably be alright. If for some reason I went shorter than that it'd likely by 300 B.O. so no biggie. If you find something better than the 36M please let me know because I think we are essentially looking for the same thing.

I'd just buy the VOX K if I didn't need 9mm capability.

[rob_s]

Resonator K? (https://yhm.net/the-resonator-k-30-cal.html)

that one is on the top of my list currently. I'm not a super-big fan of the YHM mounting system (I have one of their 9mm rifle cans) but I thin I'd be willing to deal with it.

[rayrevolver]

Subsonic was too loud? I thought that was supposed to be quieter than 9mm.

My 9" 300BLK AR + 9.25" Ti Suppressor + Subs is too loud for me to shoot without earpro. The port pop is loud. Not ears ringing loud but loud enough that I have only shot it 2 rounds without ears and said thats enough.

Stand a few feet away? Especially behind the shooter, it sounds like a nail gun. Its damn quiet!

From the shooters perspective, a suppressed MP5 is quieter. All ARs suffer from port pop. Doesn't matter if the muzzle is 120db, the port pop is going to be something higher.

Watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5swUPaY7fyQ

[El Cid]

Subsonic was too loud? I thought that was supposed to be quieter than 9mm.

With the Omega 9K it was unpleasant to my ear. With the much larger Hybrid it was tolerable.

Attached screen shots from the Capitol Armory video on the 9K.

52144521455214652147

[OlongJohnson]

Struggling to decide if that's the dumbest or the coolest gun ever... Perchance it is both?

The rifle version seems to be a really good California option.

[Rex G]

Not trying to take the PDW thread in a different direction, but simply as a point of comparison, a Model S&W500 with an 8.38" barrel has a 15" overall length and weighs 69.1 ounces.
52050

All it needs is a brace. :)

That is a smile-y, but I was not completely joking. Once upon a time, I saw a photo of a stocked version of an S&W revolver, made for the UK market. The stock made it UK-legal, in its time, though it has, I think, passed into being illegal in the UK, with subsequent legal changes, and would be an NFA item in the USA.

Edited to add: The Daniel Defense DDM4V7P, an AR pistol, which I bought, largely, to be truck/RV-legal while driving in jurisdictions that frown upon loaded long guns inside vehicles, has yet to usurp that role from my non-stocked, non-braced 4” to 6” .357 Ruger revolvers.

[DiscipulusArmorum]

that one is on the top of my list currently. I'm not a super-big fan of the YHM mounting system (I have one of their 9mm rifle cans) but I thin I'd be willing to deal with it.

I don't know much about it first hand (month 9 waiting for my Turbo K to clear), but YHM's recently designed cans are supposed to be compatible with a wide variety of mounting systems, e.g. Griffin Plan A, Q Plan B, Dead Air KeyMo, Silencerco ASR, maybe others I'm not thinking of.

[Clusterfrack]

Just returned from a morning of long-range rifle shooting (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?118-Long-Guns-Photo-Gallery&p=1030761&viewfull=1#post1030761) at an undisclosed location in the Oregon coast range. Unlike my favorite spots in the high desert, the coast range areas have more people doing various activities, and some of these individuals are close cousins of Florida Man. I never go alone. Our group always has a security and comms plan, and a spotter to make sure folks aren't wandering into our line of fire or sneaking up on us.

This morning we saw and heard no one, until--as we were packing up and getting ready to retrieve our steel targets--a beat up Hyundai SUV rattled past and headed down toward our target line. As we followed their progress, it became clear that they were headed for our 810yd target, which was visible from the road. So, we took both vehicles and followed. Then my buddy continued on to see what the two people were up to, while I parked at an overwatch position 225yds away, and above. I was glad to be carrying my 300BLK PDW, which made it very easy to exit the vehicle to observe. My buddy saw that in the the car was a mostly toothless older couple with a bunch of junk in back. They told him they were looking for brass, but obviously wanted to steal our target. I'm not sure they even saw that I was on the hill until they drove past.

Anyway, I'm really liking the rifle caliber PDW.

[GJM]

Atlanta Arms .300 BLK 110 VMAX:

https://atlantaarms.com/products/elite-300-blackout-110gr-v-max.html

[HCountyGuy]

Atlanta Arms .300 BLK 110 VMAX:

https://atlantaarms.com/products/elite-300-blackout-110gr-v-max.html

Holy shit I never knew these guys were right up the road. Good suggestion on the ammo!

[Bart Carter]

Subsonic was too loud? I thought that was supposed to be quieter than 9mm.

Well, that changes some plans for me. :mad:

Are there any workarounds? Adjustable gas, different buffers, etc.?

[ccmdfd]

Subsonic was too loud? I thought that was supposed to be quieter than 9mm.

I'm with El Cid on this one. I have the same can as and same barrel length and shooting subs is still loud. Mind you it's much quieter than 556, especially with that barrel length. But it's still a need ear protection situation.

Maybe a longer barrel or longer can would make a difference.

I've never heard someone say it's quieter than sub 9mm's.

cc

[ranger]

Atlanta Arms .300 BLK 110 VMAX:

https://atlantaarms.com/products/elite-300-blackout-110gr-v-max.html

"110 VMAX" loaded with "125BT"? I worry when reloading companies make a mistake in their ad copy like that

[rob_s]

I'm with El Cid on this one. I have the same can as and same barrel length and shooting subs is still loud. Mind you it's much quieter than 556, especially with that barrel length. But it's still a need ear protection situation.

Maybe a longer barrel or longer can would make a difference.

I've never heard someone say it's quieter than sub 9mm's.

cc

Ten years ago subs in a 9” barrel with sdn6 can was quiet enough to shoot without ears. I wish I could get my video of it out of Photobucket jail...

But a 9” barrel plus sdn6 doesn’t really a pdw make.

Personally I’m ok with having to wear ears for the range if it gets me less damage in an actual “real world” application as well as perhaps attracts slightly less attention.

[Doc_Glock]

My 8” with Gemtech 300-GMT did not ring my ears with subs. That I recall anyway. Maybe I am too far gone? Still wore ear pro for this mag dump.


https://youtu.be/hNMRg1Y6X3s

But I don’t see much reason to ever shoot subs defensively.

[ccmdfd]

Personally I’m ok with having to wear ears for the range if it gets me less damage in an actual “real world” application as well as perhaps attracts slightly less attention.

Good point.

If the goal is entirely to be able to shoot without any hearing protection and have absolutely no hearing damage, then an eight and a half inch barrel with an Omega 9k shooting Subs is not the answer. However, again, it's still much better than shooting without the Can, shooting SuperSonics, and much much better than 5 5 6 at that barrel length. So it would be better for you hearing than any of the above.

[El Cid]

Well, that changes some plans for me. :mad:

Are there any workarounds? Adjustable gas, different buffers, etc.?

I'm not sure how those would affect noise at the muzzle. Most firearms are loud, even with cans. The only ones that I am comfortable shooting without ear pro are my 22LR's. My 10/22 with GemTech MIST-22 is as loud as the stapler on your desk with subs.

[El Cid]

Personally I’m ok with having to wear ears for the range if it gets me less damage in an actual “real world” application as well as perhaps attracts slightly less attention.

That's one of the principle reasons I have suppressors. My HD rifle and pistol both wear them 24/7. I still keep electronic ears in my nightstand, but if I don't have time to get them at least the report will be significantly diminished with all the benefits that brings.

[Clusterfrack]

Well, that changes some plans for me. :mad:

Are there any workarounds? Adjustable gas, different buffers, etc.?

My 7.5" with subs and an AAC Ti-Rant 9mm suppressor is quiet enough to shoot without ear pro. The can is long--especially with the added 1/2" for the thread adaptor, but it's very light. This combo runs well with a C-buffer.

I am gun-shy of adjustable gas systems in DI guns. Problems with these can creep in as the gun gets used. If a gun won't run right without fine-tuning the gas system, it may not be reliable long-term, or with a variety of ammo.

[EPF]

"110 VMAX" loaded with "125BT"? I worry when reloading companies make a mistake in their ad copy like that

I guess I’m going to find out :). I ordered a 400 round “case” this morning because my Barnes order from Brownells was unceremoniously cut to 200 rounds on the order confirmation.

[ranger]

I have avoided 300BO for a very long time but this thread is determined to drag me into yet another caliber to load.

Just won a jig that works with a Harbor Freight 2inch cut off saw to make 300B0 brass. It is a plot...When PSA 300BO uppers go back to pre-panic pricing I guess I will have to get a 300BO pistol upper

PS - picked up about 50 pieces of 300BO brass at range too

[HCountyGuy]

I went and bought this on the local trader.

I hate you enablers...

52384

[StraitR]

Zeroed the PDW with some Hornady 110gr GMX and 190gr Sub-X. Also shot some Fiocchi 150gr FMJ. The DDM4 PDW comes with two springs, one lighter, one heavier. It ships with the softer spring installed, so I left it that way. Limited time and ammo prevented me from testing the second spring. Cliff notes...

- Shooting suppressed, the gun functioned perfectly with all three ammo types, and locked back with both supers and the 190gr Sub-X. Ejection was from 3:00-5:00, depending on the load. Each load made a tidy independent pile. It appears DD did their homework on the gas management and overall tuning on this little PDW. This is my first DD rifle, but I'll likely pick up a 5.56 DDM4 V-something later this year.

- Zeroed 110gr GMX at 50 yards. POA/POI shift between the three loads was less than I anticipated. Sub-X prints roughly 2.5" high and the Fiocchi 150gr FMJ about an inch high.

- I'm pleased by the accuracy of the 110gr GMX, which will be my go-to supersonic load. The 190gr Sub-X shot well enough, and the Fiocchi 150gr FMJ leaves a lot to be desired, but is perfectly serviceable for plinking. I would have liked to shoot more Sub-X to see if I could tighten things up, but I only brought one box, and it happened to be the box I used to top of some mags left at home.

- My Lancer 300blk mags appear to be lost in the postal system, so I used some standard 5.56 20rd Colt and Magpul Pmag Gen 3 magazines. No issues.

- SF thumbscrew mount for Mini-Scout loosened up by the end of the session. No surprise. I dislike them for this reason, but it accomplishes what I want/need (easily removable) for a WML on a PDW.

- I continue to like the Q Plan B + Cherry Bomb setup. Boring out the SiCo 5.56mm flat endcap to .405 has allowed me to move it from gun to gun easily without worry. Tested POA/POI shift with previously zeroed 5.56 Noveske showed no shift, surprisingly. I'll take it.

- I tried the 190gr Sub-X without ear pro. I wouldn't make a habit out of it, but it wasn't painful. Definitely less port pop at than a 16" 5.56 gun. I use my buddies property to shoot, and his kid was napping, so I didn't try shooting anything without the suppressor to see how "blasty" it is. I was also on limited time.

- All in all, I'm really happy with the purchase. Once I policed up brass, pulled targets, and took some pics, the suppressor had cooled so I stoked up another mag of 110 GMX and stuffed it back in the Head tennis racquet bag. This little PDW will do exactly what I want it to do, and much like @Clusterfrack (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=7807) I plan to find all kinds of uses for it.


https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49794002736_263431d9a1_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49794677041_4a7f5c2e34_c.jpg

[GJM]

StraitR, love to see posts in this thread with shooting! What do you think of that collapsing brace?

I recently bought a BCM .300 BLK upper, to go on a BCM lower with a Law folder. Haven’t installed the Law yet, but I was taken with how lightweight the BCM pistol felt. In the spirit of lightweight, I threw on a 2.5 SRO, and headed to the range. It weighs 5.67 pounds with the SRO and empty magazine, and feels very handy. Here is what it looks like:

52409

I have been trying to ration my 110 Barnes, so I did preliminary zeroing and some range work with the Hornady 110 V-MAX supersonic load. I had a Gen 3 Magpul 30 round 5.56 magazine with me, and loaded it up. The first thing I noticed was that the Magpul magazine did not want to seat in the BCM lower. (Closer inspection showed the rib on the magazine that limits insertion was not compatible with the BCM magwell dimension. GI 20 and 30 rounds magazines worked, Lancer .300 BLK magazines worked, and the Magpul .300 BLK magazine seated, but not as well as GI and Lancer magazines.)

Since I was on a pistol bay, I set the zero at 2.5 inches low at 25 yards, with a plan to confirm a 100 yard zero later on the rifle range. In the spirit of Clint Smith’s distance envelope from his Urban Rifle class, I decided to shoot an array at pistol distances. I was very curious how the .300 would compare to the APC9 Pro at pistol distances.

Before shooting the .300, I ran the array with a 5.56 16 inch SR-15 and an Eotech EXPS, to get some benchmark data. Before I forget, I really like shooting the Eotech. After running it once, my wife was like “you are killing my ears, let me go over by the truck.” When I shot it with the .300 BLK, my wife said it was WAY quieter, and she thought is sounded closer to a 9mm PCC than a 5.56. He is some video of two runs, followed by two runs at the same two distances with my P2000.


https://youtu.be/MPLY2fZ9UBU

Later, I confirmed a zero at 100 yards with 110 Barnes. As I may have mentioned previously, with this load, I am dead on at 50 and 100 yards, unlike 5.56 where I would be about two inches high at 100 with a 50 yard zero. I was using the 2.5 moa SRO, and it was very acceptable at 100 yards. Up close it felt much easier to shoot than a T1.

52410

While Jeff Cooper was not an AR-15 fan, I think the .300 BLK pistol is perhaps today’s version of Jeff’s thumper. The .300 BLK shoots close enough to the APC9 Pro, that having .30 cal 110 Barnes bullets traveling at near AK-47 velocity, this thing is a no brainer.

[StraitR]

StraitR, love to see posts in this thread with shooting! What do you think of that collapsing brace?

Nice shooting. You definitely picked up some speed with the PDW. I only had enough time to zero mine and collect some holds with a couple loads, but I have no doubt I can run the PDW faster and more accurately than I can a pistol (G19 w/RMR).

Hoping to find time for more shooting in the coming weeks, but I found the brace surprisingly comfortable in use That said, prior to shooting, and for the sole purpose of comfort, I've switched T-2 mounts back and forth a few times between an absolute co-witness LT751 and a lower 1/3rd Geissele. As much as I prefer the more heads-up position using a lower 1/3rd, I find the cheek weld more comfortable with the absolute co-witness mount.

I chose to zero at 50yards, because as you pointed out, with a near zero of 50y the far zero is really close to 100y with 300blk. I didn't have time to walk back and confirm at 100 today, but I'll drop a screenshot below from Strelok Pro with the 110gr GMX. Until I can confirm with a Labradar, I had to guestimate muzzle velocity for the 7" barrel (based on some other data I've seen in various places). The difference is .5" at 100y, a difference that can't be seen at my skill/vision level with a 2moa dot.

With the T-2/LT751, 5 slot Mlok rail section (aluminum), BCM Mlok QD sling mount, M300 light/SR07 tape switch, Cherry Bomb muzzle device, and empty 20rd Colt mag, mine weighs 6.53lbs according to my wife's food scale (shhhhh). If not going in the GR1, I'll likely tote it around (vehicle born) in the tennis racquet bag with suppressor attached, so add about 13oz to that in those instances.

As for magazines, the 20rd M3 Pmag functioned fine, but is definitely harder to insert than the 20rd GI Colt mag on a closed bolt. For that reason, I only load 18 rounds in the P-mag, but a topped off Colt mag inserts with less effort (closed bolt). I did notice, although it didn't seem to have an effect, that the 110gr GMX projectiles toe a little bit in the P-Mag, and did not exhibit the same in the Colt mag. I attribute this to those little nubs found inside the P-mags, the same bits that were addressed for the 300blk 30rd version. The DD PDW came with a 30rd 300blk Pmag, but I didn't try it. I have some 20rd and 30rd Lancer 300blk mags on the way, but USPS tracking shows the "moving within the USPS network" message that goes up when the location is unknown. Hopefully they turn up Soon™.

I too am an instant fan of the little PDW, and happy to have the .30cal ballistics within reasonable distances I imagine for this gun.

110gr GMX - Two groups of five - 50y

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49795614898_d2d4a6edf4_c.jpg

190gr Sub-X - 50y - In my last post, I noted a 2.5" high shift. Looking at it again in the pic, I'm thinking it's less.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49796465732_40dabcc638_z.jpg

Hornady 110gr GMX - 50y Zero - 2090fps at muzzle - 78 degrees

52414

[rca90gsx]

GJM,

Nice job running the .300! What are the bbl and handguard specs on that BCM upper? I'm thinking of putting something like this together maybe using the KAK Mr. Blond bbl as a starting point. Just weighing options on bbl and handguard length.

StraitR,

Really nice setup and shooting as well! Looks fantastic!

Thank you!


StraitR, love to see posts in this thread with shooting! What do you think of that collapsing brace?

I recently bought a BCM .300 BLK upper, to go on a BCM lower with a Law folder. Haven’t installed the Law yet, but I was taken with how lightweight the BCM pistol felt. In the spirit of lightweight, I threw on a 2.5 SRO, and headed to the range. It weighs 5.67 pounds with the SRO and empty magazine, and feels very handy. Here is what it looks like:

52409

I have been trying to ration my 110 Barnes, so I did preliminary zeroing and some range work with the Hornady 110 V-MAX supersonic load. I had a Gen 3 Magpul 30 round 5.56 magazine with me, and loaded it up. The first thing I noticed was that the Magpul magazine did not want to seat in the BCM lower. (Closer inspection showed the rib on the magazine that limits insertion was not compatible with the BCM magwell dimension. GI 20 and 30 rounds magazines worked, Lancer .300 BLK magazines worked, and the Magpul .300 BLK magazine seated, but not as well as GI and Lancer magazines.)

Since I was on a pistol bay, I set the zero at 2.5 inches low at 25 yards, with a plan to confirm a 100 yard zero later on the rifle range. In the spirit of Clint Smith’s distance envelope from his Urban Rifle class, I decided to shoot an array at pistol distances. I was very curious how the .300 would compare to the APC9 Pro at pistol distances.

Before shooting the .300, I ran the array with a 5.56 16 inch SR-15 and an Eotech EXPS, to get some benchmark data. Before I forget, I really like shooting the Eotech. After running it once, my wife was like “you are killing my ears, let me go over by the truck.” When I shot it with the .300 BLK, my wife said it was WAY quieter, and she thought is sounded closer to a 9mm PCC than a 5.56. He is some video of two runs, followed by two runs at the same two distances with my P2000.


https://youtu.be/MPLY2fZ9UBU

Later, I confirmed a zero at 100 yards with 110 Barnes. As I may have mentioned previously, with this load, I am dead on at 50 and 100 yards, unlike 5.56 where I would be about two inches high at 100 with a 50 yard zero. I was using the 2.5 moa SRO, and it was very acceptable at 100 yards. Up close it felt much easier to shoot than a T1.

52410

While Jeff Cooper was not an AR-15 fan, I think the .300 BLK pistol is perhaps today’s version of Jeff’s thumper. The .300 BLK shoots close enough to the APC9 Pro, that having .30 cal 110 Barnes bullets traveling at near AK-47 velocity, this thing is a no brainer.

[GJM]

GJM,

Nice job running the .300! What are the bbl and handguard specs on that BCM upper? I'm thinking of putting something like this together maybe using the KAK Mr. Blond bbl as a starting point. Just weighing options on bbl and handguard length.

StraitR,

Really nice setup and shooting as well! Looks fantastic!

Thank you!

https://bravocompanyusa.com/bcm-mk2-standard-9-300-blackout-upper-receiver-group-w-mcmr-8-handguard/

[EPF]

Is there a visible laser reliable enough to use on a “PDW” style weapon? A long time ago Pat Rogers answered a question in class about backup irons on a rifle by mentioning the future possibility of a visible laser as backup to a dot. I’ve always kept that idea in the back of my mind.

I don’t plan to skip irons but, in theory, a visible laser could be very useful on an ultra compact PDW that may need to be employed in extreme close quarters. Particularly from non standard shooting positions or with a stock folded. Bore sight offset could also be a problem with some of the laser/light combo pistol lasers on the market.

Rail space is at a premium with these tiny guns so I suppose that’s a limiting factor as well with a light and the ability to obtain your master grip. I know several people here, including Todd, favored lasers on handguns in certain situations, but few if any of our skilled shooters and those who still carry handguns into harms way seem to view them as a requirement.

Does something small, powerful, and reliable enough for that application exist?

[rob_s]

Is there a visible laser reliable enough to use on a “PDW” style weapon? A long time ago Pat Rogers answered a question in class about backup irons on a rifle by mentioning the future possibility of a visible laser as backup to a dot. I’ve always kept that idea in the back of my mind.

I don’t plan to skip irons but, in theory, a visible laser could be very useful on an ultra compact PDW that may need to be employed in extreme close quarters. Particularly from non standard shooting positions or with a stock folded. Bore sight offset could also be a problem with some of the laser/light combo pistol lasers on the market.

Rail space is at a premium with these tiny guns so I suppose that’s a limiting factor as well with a light and the ability to obtain your master grip. I know several people here, including Todd, favored lasers on handguns in certain situations, but few if any of our skilled shooters and those who still carry handguns into harms way seem to view them as a requirement.

Does something small, powerful, and reliable enough for that application exist?

I put one of these at 12 o'clock on my PCC. Can't comment on long-term durability but I like it. May not be considered bright by the "all the lumens" MOAR world but for anyone that remembers starting out with a Surefire 6P this thing sure seems bright to me.
https://www.streamlight.com/en/products/detail/index/tlr-8-a-g

[Mike C]

EPF Surefire has light and laser offerings, (X400 Ultra) that I am pretty certain are reliable enough. Visibly lasers being almost a requirement? Maybe IR for certain users but visible lasers are a two way street and can be a liability as well as an asset. For a PDW and it's roll I can see a light laser combo being used as secondary aiming in lieu of BUIS if one needed a light but didn't necessary want to clutter forward hand space with a light/laser and BUIS.

[EPF]

EPF Surefire has light and laser offerings, (X400 Ultra) that I am pretty certain are reliable enough. Visibly lasers being almost a requirement? Maybe IR for certain users but visible lasers are a two way street and can be a liability as well as an asset. For a PDW and it's roll I can see a light laser combo being used as secondary aiming in lieu of BUIS if one needed a light but didn't necessary want to clutter forward hand space with a light/laser and BUIS.

Thanks. I definitely don’t see people who have experience with pistol lasers viewing them as a requirement which is why I am wondering if the juice is worth the squeeze. I can’t remember where I read it, but someone said there are issues with the combo pistol lights on carbines due to offset. Have you had any issues with the offset of the x400?

[GJM]

Thanks. I definitely don’t see people who have experience with pistol lasers viewing them as a requirement which is why I am wondering if the juice is worth the squeeze. I can’t remember where I read it, but someone said there are issues with the combo pistol lights on carbines due to offset. Have you had any issues with the offset of the x400?

I am also experimenting with a TLR-8, mounted at 12 o’clock, on top of the rail. I don’t like the offset at 9/3, but at 12, the laser is close to the red dot.

[rob_s]

Thanks. I definitely don’t see people who have experience with pistol lasers viewing them as a requirement which is why I am wondering if the juice is worth the squeeze. I can’t remember where I read it, but someone said there are issues with the combo pistol lights on carbines due to offset. Have you had any issues with the offset of the x400?

Surefire has been threatening to release this thing for something like 2 years, which would theoretically address the offset issue to some degree.
Surefire XH55G Ultra Masterfire Rapid Deployment Weapon Light LED with Green Laser (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1019881086)


ETA:
I still might grab one of these to monkey with, I'm just not clear on the switching...
SureFire XC2 Weaponlight Ultra Compact LED Handgun Light (https://www.amazon.com/SureFire-Weaponlight-Energizer-Batteries-Lumintrail/dp/B07BGBMQH9)


My solution on the PCC is to zero with an offset at 25 yards, hoping that means a pretty "flat" offset at least from muzzle to 25.

[GJM]

Weighs 6.11 pounds. TLR-8.

52421

[LittleLebowski]

The much higher pressure of 5.56 makes even .300BO supers sound quiet comparatively speaking.

[LittleLebowski]

Weighs 6.11 pounds. TLR-8.


Needs a short .300BO super-capable can.

https://hansohnbrothers.com/shop/dead-air-armament/silencers/handgun-subgun/wolfman/

https://hansohnbrothers.com/shop/dead-air-armament/silencers/30-caliber/nomad-30/

https://hansohnbrothers.com/shop/rex-silentium/silencers/handgun-subgun/rex-silentium-mg7-358-9mm/

[ranger]

I went and bought this on the local trader.

I hate you enablers...

52384

I missed that one on ODT

[El Cid]

Is there a visible laser reliable enough to use on a “PDW” style weapon? A long time ago Pat Rogers answered a question in class about backup irons on a rifle by mentioning the future possibility of a visible laser as backup to a dot. I’ve always kept that idea in the back of my mind.

I don’t plan to skip irons but, in theory, a visible laser could be very useful on an ultra compact PDW that may need to be employed in extreme close quarters. Particularly from non standard shooting positions or with a stock folded. Bore sight offset could also be a problem with some of the laser/light combo pistol lasers on the market.

Rail space is at a premium with these tiny guns so I suppose that’s a limiting factor as well with a light and the ability to obtain your master grip. I know several people here, including Todd, favored lasers on handguns in certain situations, but few if any of our skilled shooters and those who still carry handguns into harms way seem to view them as a requirement.

Does something small, powerful, and reliable enough for that application exist?

Some years ago I experimented with that concept. I had snagged a CQBL-1 for a price I couldn’t resist. Since it was so compact I tried it in place of BUIS. For work inside a structure it was good. But outside, especially on a sunny day it was nearly impossible to find the dot past 15 or 20 yards. And of course with BUIS a good shooter can make hits past 500. A laser will only allow that at night using NODS and an IR laser.

https://i.imgur.com/cLovAl2_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

https://i.imgur.com/wE7ZbOd_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium



I am hoping SF releases the XR2 they’ve been teasing us with for a couple years. It has a green laser which is much easier to see outdoors and when upside down at 12 o’clock the laser is close to the bore.



Surefire has been threatening to release this thing for something like 2 years, which would theoretically address the offset issue to some degree.
Surefire XH55G Ultra Masterfire Rapid Deployment Weapon Light LED with Green Laser (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1019881086)


ETA:
I still might grab one of these to monkey with, I'm just not clear on the switching...
SureFire XC2 Weaponlight Ultra Compact LED Handgun Light (https://www.amazon.com/SureFire-Weaponlight-Energizer-Batteries-Lumintrail/dp/B07BGBMQH9)


My solution on the PCC is to zero with an offset at 25 yards, hoping that means a pretty "flat" offset at least from muzzle to 25.

I saw an XH55G in person a couple years ago at a class. I was very impressed but as with so many things lately it hasn’t made it to market. If my memory serves it was longer than an X300u and would not fit most holsters for the U. But for long guns it would be a great compliment.

[GJM]

While maybe not face shooter tough, a TLR-8G seems a size, weight, function and price effective solution — especially if mounted at 12 o’clock.

[EPF]

Some years ago I experimented with that concept. I had snagged a CQBL-1 for a price I couldn’t resist. Since it was so compact I tried it in place of BUIS. For work inside a structure it was good. But outside, especially on a sunny day it was nearly impossible to find the dot past 15 or 20 yards. And of course with BUIS a good shooter can make hits past 500. A laser will only allow that at night using NODS and an IR laser.

https://i.imgur.com/cLovAl2_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

https://i.imgur.com/wE7ZbOd_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium



I am hoping SF releases the XR2 they’ve been teasing us with for a couple years. It has a green laser which is much easier to see outdoors and when upside down at 12 o’clock the laser is close to the bore.




I saw an XH55G in person a couple years ago at a class. I was very impressed but as with so many things lately it hasn’t made it to market. If my memory serves it was longer than an X300u and would not fit most holsters for the U. But for long guns it would be a great compliment.

Thanks for the info. For how I would use a PDW and a laser in this context I’d be happy with consistent visibility at 25 in all light conditions. 50 would be perfect for my uses of the laser I think.

[EPF]

While maybe not face shooter tough, a TLR-8G seems a size, weight, function and price effective solution — especially if mounted at 12 o’clock.

Does the 8G obscure the dot at all? It looks taller than the 8/7

[El Cid]

Thanks for the info. For how I would use a PDW and a laser in this context I’d be happy with consistent visibility at 25 in all light conditions. 50 would be perfect for my uses of the laser I think.

I’d still recommend green for the laser. It’s significantly easier to see under all conditions. And as GJM has mentioned before it makes it easy to differentiate between your red dot and the laser.

[rob_s]

Does the 8G obscure the dot at all? It looks taller than the 8/7

From my thread on the pcc (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?37271-quickest-cheapest-route-to-USPSA-PCC-from-where-I-am-now/page2&highlight=Holosun)


Holosun with tlr8

52441

[Doc_Glock]

Finally got around to weighing this one. 7.2lbs with suppressor.
52442

I form 1’d this lower just before the brace and “pistol” thing became a thing. Now I kind of want a braces pistol lower to go along with it.

I am glad 300BLK has become more mainstream. At least in this thread. I need to get a bunch of good 110 grain ammo. Zero it and start to use it more.

The TLR-8 with green laser seems a great solution for light and laser in a tidy package.

Aero Precision X15 Lower H3 buffer.
Larue MBT-2S trigger 4#
AERO M4E1 300 BLK 8” upper with 12” handguard
Gemtech GMT-300BLK suppressor
Aimpoint Micro H1 2 MOA
DD fixed BUIS
Streamlight TLR-1

[HCountyGuy]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hollywood_Stuntz_gang_assault


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dqIPRYTWWA

Reading how that biker group was effectively shutting down areas for their stunts made me think of this incident from last month:

https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/wild-video-shows-drivers-doing-donuts-i-285-shutting-down-traffic/4DBJZWE6JFDHJDNBZIY3JLCHOE/

No violence transpired that I’m aware of. There were reports of an additional, similar incident just off of or very close to I-20 near my current city, but I can’t find anything in the media about it. Whenever the wife, kid and myself venture down to see my folks we pass through the area of 285 indicated in the linked story. Can’t say I’d really know what to do since it’s not very feasible to turn around where it occurred. But it gives me things to consider.

[CleverNickname]

Is there a visible laser reliable enough to use on a “PDW” style weapon?

I've got a Crimson Trace CMR-206 green laser mounted at 12 o'clock on my USPSA 9mm PCC. I've not actually shot the gun with the laser mounted yet, what with coronavirus and my SBR form 1 not being approved yet, but other USPSA PCC shooters I know use the CMR-206 and they seem happy with it.

https://i.imgur.com/jdToQLzl.png

[rob_s]

From my thread on the pcc (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?37271-quickest-cheapest-route-to-USPSA-PCC-from-where-I-am-now/page2&highlight=Holosun)


Holosun with tlr8

52441

Just a follow-on point here...

I suspect, it haven’t tested my suspicion, that a “micro” tube optic (T1-style) in a lower 1/3 cowitness mount would appear to be far less obscured. The combination of the absolute-height mounting of the Holosun and the larger picture frame may make my setup one of the worst possible combinations.

For me, on a PDW the point of the laser would be almost entirely for up-close, possibly one-handed/folded/stock shooting, while the optic of choice would be for “braced last shooting. That plus the overall goal of compact plus lightweight has me thinking the micro tube sight is probably the best bet here.

[Doc_Glock]

Get it while you can $1.35 is the best I have seen.

https://www.targetsportsusa.com/barnes-vor-tx-300-aac-blackout-ammo-110-gr-tipped-tac-tx-fblf-21548-p-4401.aspx

[OlongJohnson]

Guess I need to get serious about picking out some upper parts now.

[Corse]

Get it while you can $1.35 is the best I have seen.

https://www.targetsportsusa.com/barnes-vor-tx-300-aac-blackout-ammo-110-gr-tipped-tac-tx-fblf-21548-p-4401.aspx

Ordered a case.

It’s all gone.

[Doc_Glock]

Ordered a case.

It’s all gone.

Three 20 round boxes still showing...

Edit: now all gone.

[GJM]

52518

52519

[Mike C]

GJM I hope the Sig proves to be reliable for you. Any chance we could get a photo next to the apc with both the braces folded for size comparison? I’m not interested in the Sig per se but am curious how they stack up weight and size wise.

[Rex G]

I just put a youth-length stock on my Winchester ‘94 AE Trapper 16” carbine, resulting in a package very little longer than my 10-point-something-inch Daniel Defense DDM4V7P, with its LAW folder extended. LAW folders surely do result in a chunky package, when folded. For that matter, a Winchester Trapper is noticeably less-wide, comparatively, even when an AR-based weapon does not have its buffer tube folded.

Winchester Trapper carbines, in the PDW business since the Nineties. The Eighteen-Nineties. :)

[Velo Dog]

Henry Mare's Leg is ~2 ft in overall length and weighs 5.79 pounds.

https://www.henryusa.com/rifles/mares-leg/

52536

[GJM]

I picked my Sig Rattler up this morning. It came as a package with a Romeo 4T, for about the same dollars as a black Rattler with no optic. I also retrieved my 8 inch .300 BLK AR after the Law adapter was installed. Here is a picture of the AR, APC9 Pro and the Rattler.

52533

First, I measured wrong and the eight inch AR with the Law adapter is shorter than I thought. It just barely squeezes in the GR1, and if you angle it just right, you can zip the pack. Would seem to limit the utility of the pack, as the AR fills most of it.

52534

By comparison, the Rattler is much smaller, and very close to APC9 Pro size. So close, I am not sure you would notice the difference. The APC9 weighs 5.6 pounds with optic, BUIS and TLR-8. The Rattler weighs 5.95 pounds with the Romeo 4T, but no light and BUIS installed yet. Here is the Rattler in the GR1.

52535

As a general rule, buying a Gen 1 Sig anything doesn’t end well, and I had held off on the Rattler after suffering through P320 and MPX teething pains. SouthNarc pushed me over the decision point on the Rattler, and so I have one.

Unboxing, my impression was this thing is SMALL. The brace was nice, the color was nice, and the trigger was a clean single stage that seemed appropriate for defensive use. Headed to the range to shoot pistols, and spent sometime at the end with the Rattler. Used just four rounds to get the Romeo 4T close to a rough zero. My first impression was that the Rattler was not nearly as loud as I was expecting, and it was very controllable. Here are all the rounds I fired with it, after my four rounds to rough zero it.


https://youtu.be/h4pWjqA0yZU

If the Rattler proves reliable, given how small it is and how controllable it is to shoot, I don’t get the argument for a semi auto 9mm like the APC9 Pro or SP5K.

[OlongJohnson]

Planning out an upper.

I have BCM handguards on everything, but they have a 1.3-in. ID, whereas the can I would use is a 1.5-in. OD. So if I go with a BCM 7-in. handguard, I need to go with a minimum 8-in. barrel or mill a little off the end of the handguard. Checked Geissele and ALG, and they are both too small on the ID to tuck the can inside at all.

If I go with an alternate handguard that has a larger ID that could slightly overlap the can, I could go with a 7.5- or even 7-in. barrel.

Anyone have suggestions of other handguards they like that have a >1.5-in. ID and aren't crazy expensive?

[Mike C]

GJM, thank you for the photos and holy crap the Sig is small. I agree with you at the size and weight it really is hard to argue for 9mm. Though my own lens I shot 300 B.O. for over a year and love if for anything 250 and in. 300y for the longer barrels. The capability it brings in that deployment envelope is fantastic I just got sick of trying to find ammo for it after things slowed down with the cartridge. Same for components drying up. If I wasn't so irritated about the continued lack of sufficient production to drive costs down/demand I'd buy in again. I do believe that another member here mentioned a Russian company will be producing and importing ammo for 300 B.O. this year. If it is at or neat 5.56 costs it's definitely worth it. In my mind if it sits at 308 costs I have a hard time justifying because the niche need is really narrow. I like to shoot in volume as I know you do. Given the short barrel length how do you find the report and concussion of 300 out of the Sig? Sorry if you've answered this already. Can you see enough volume being shot in a session to be satisfied or is it still in the shot little carried a lot realm? My experience with 300 is only in the 16" and 8.5" barrel lengths and I find the 8.5" length barrels to not be any worse that a 14.5-16" 5.56mm carbine. Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

[Clusterfrack]

Or you could use a thinner can, if you're only going to suppress subsonics. My AAC Ti-Rant 9 fits inside the longer 10" ALG handguard I use for that purpose. Normally the unsuppressed PDW wears an ALR 8" handguard.


Planning out an upper.

I have BCM handguards on everything, but they have a 1.3-in. ID, whereas the can I would use is a 1.5-in. OD. So if I go with a BCM 7-in. handguard, I need to go with a minimum 8-in. barrel or mill a little off the end of the handguard. Checked Geissele and ALG, and they are both too small on the ID to tuck the can inside at all.

If I go with an alternate handguard that has a larger ID that could slightly overlap the can, I could go with a 7.5- or even 7-in. barrel.

Anyone have suggestions of other handguards they like that have a >1.5-in. ID and aren't crazy expensive?

[texasaggie2005]

Planning out an upper.

I have BCM handguards on everything, but they have a 1.3-in. ID, whereas the can I would use is a 1.5-in. OD. So if I go with a BCM 7-in. handguard, I need to go with a minimum 8-in. barrel or mill a little off the end of the handguard. Checked Geissele and ALG, and they are both too small on the ID to tuck the can inside at all.

If I go with an alternate handguard that has a larger ID that could slightly overlap the can, I could go with a 7.5- or even 7-in. barrel.

Anyone have suggestions of other handguards they like that have a >1.5-in. ID and aren't crazy expensive?

https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/ar15-enhanced-mlok-handguards

[PearTree]

Planning out an upper.

I have BCM handguards on everything, but they have a 1.3-in. ID, whereas the can I would use is a 1.5-in. OD. So if I go with a BCM 7-in. handguard, I need to go with a minimum 8-in. barrel or mill a little off the end of the handguard. Checked Geissele and ALG, and they are both too small on the ID to tuck the can inside at all.

If I go with an alternate handguard that has a larger ID that could slightly overlap the can, I could go with a 7.5- or even 7-in. barrel.

Anyone have suggestions of other handguards they like that have a >1.5-in. ID and aren't crazy expensive?

Midwest Industries has a suppressor compatible line of rails, I believe they are 1.75 internal diameter. No experience with these particular rails but have used other Midwest rails in the past.

https://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/AR15-SP-Handguard-M-Lok-s/329.htm

[Pit]

GJM

Congrats on the Rattler. They do the job they are designed for quite well. Sorta like a J frame fills it's role very well.

What finger/hand stop are you using on the Rattler? Do you pull into your shoulder with the support hand?
Are you running an after market pistol grip or has Sig change them again?

Good luck with the Rattler.

JW

[DpdG]

Midwest Industries has a suppressor compatible line of rails, I believe they are 1.75 internal diameter. No experience with these particular rails but have used other Midwest rails in the past.

https://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/AR15-SP-Handguard-M-Lok-s/329.htm

I’ve installed that handguard- went together with no issues other than it does require clocking the barrel nut. Otherwise pretty slick and has a decent anti-rotation/retention method. It does not require glue like the old Gen III MI stuff.

[Xhado]

Looks like Agency Arms TP9 triggers are on the way

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_P7WgZlIk9/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

[Rex G]

Henry Mare's Leg is ~2 ft in overall length and weighs 5.79 pounds.

https://www.henryusa.com/rifles/mares-leg/

52536

A Mare’s Leg looks like it would be fun, but a lever rifle is run most efficiently with the stock shouldered. A slide-action can be run relatively more efficiently without being shouldered. With a butt-less pump gun, it is as if one pantomimes the butt portion of the stock, and does the push-pull technique to keep everything steady, for the shot.

An interesting legal tidbit, regarding short-barreled Trapper carbines, is that some of them have Curio & Relic status, and have 14” barrels. These are rare, and, are doubly desirable because they are not NFA items.

This link will implode, after the rifle sells:

https://www.collectorsfirearms.com/winchester-1892-trapper-model-44-40-w10379/

Yes, I do wish I had $6K to play with.

[GJM]

GJM

Congrats on the Rattler. They do the job they are designed for quite well. Sorta like a J frame fills it's role very well.

What finger/hand stop are you using on the Rattler? Do you pull into your shoulder with the support hand?
Are you running an after market pistol grip or has Sig change them again?

Good luck with the Rattler.

JW

I will have to look at the hand guard to see who makes it, I pulled it off a SP5. Pistol grip is what came on it. No idea about pulling, just shot it the few rounds that were on video, so haven’t started working on specific Rattler technique. It was surprisingly controllable.

MikeC, the concussion didn’t seem any worse than an eight inch BCM or AAC upper. The Honey Badger was much worse to shoot.

[El Cid]

I will have to look at the hand guard to see who makes it, I pulled it off a SP5. Pistol grip is what came on it. No idea about pulling, just shot it the few rounds that were on video, so haven’t started working on specific Rattler technique. It was surprisingly controllable.

MikeC, the concussion didn’t seem any worse than an eight inch BCM or AAC upper. The Honey Badger was much worse to shoot.

Maybe I missed it. Did you go with the 5.56 or 300BLK Rattler?

[GJM]

Maybe I missed it. Did you go with the 5.56 or 300BLK Rattler?

.300

[El Cid]

.300

Excellent.

I’ve avoided most things Sig for a while now. If you can’t break it then I may need to find one. Which reminds me... I’ll give you $100 for the used TP9! Lol! ;)

[rca90gsx]

I was looking at the aero rails posted a couple of posts back, or ALG rail to in the future use an Omega 9k in, with 8" barrel. Just in plannong stages, so short 7" rail to start with for standard flash hider or forward blast type muzzle device.


Or you could use a thinner can, if you're only going to suppress subsonics. My AAC Ti-Rant 9 fits inside the longer 10" ALG handguard I use for that purpose. Normally the unsuppressed PDW wears an ALR 8" handguard.

[Trigger]

Atlanta Arms .300 BLK 110 VMAX:

https://atlantaarms.com/products/elite-300-blackout-110gr-v-max.html

I’m late to the ammo discussion. These prices really encourage reloading. The Hornady 110 VMax is currently $.25 per bullet. But I just picked up 1000 Speer 125TNT for $150 shipped, or $.15 per bullet (Red River Reloading). Given the price of powder and primers, I can reload this for about $.25 per round. I have lots of 300BLK brass already. Much cheaper than factory at $1 - $1.25 per round.

On the magazine discussion, I really like the Lancers for 300BLK, especially the 20 rounders. I think for a compact SBR/PDW size weapon, the 20 round mag is optimum. I wrap color coded 3M electrical tape around the mag to designate what caliber or rifle it is meant for.

For the suppressor discussion, consider the muzzle device when you are picking a can. Since you will be moving one or two cans among many rifles, you need to be happy with both the can and the brake/mount. I use TBAC cans, and I’m happy with their brakes. I have probably 6 brakes to go with the two QD cans.

[YVK]

I've got a Crimson Trace CMR-206 green laser mounted at 12 o'clock on my USPSA 9mm PCC. I've not actually shot the gun with the laser mounted yet, what with coronavirus and my SBR form 1 not being approved yet, but other USPSA PCC shooters I know use the CMR-206 and they seem happy with it.

https://i.imgur.com/jdToQLzl.png

I have a 203 on a top rail of my PCC. It is a predecessor of 206, same green laser unit.

I had a comic relief moment during my last 3G match. The stage was rifle/PCC, that's 3 optic sights for me to verify. I guess three is too much to remember so I forgot to turn on the Eotech on that PCC. When time came to shoot that thing, and all of shooting was on the move, and I realized that optic was off, I decided to try and go through it with a laser until there was some natural pause. Dumb move but thought me something. The laser washed out like my hands in the covid19 handwashing era. First array was a plate rack at about 10, I could barely see it. The rest was as bad.
So far I have been able to utilize that laser effectively in competition.

[entropy]

Damn. This thread took off like a fat kid running for 31 Flavors.

I’ll have to toss mine in weeks late and thousands short...

[rob_s]

Planning out an upper.

I have BCM handguards on everything, but they have a 1.3-in. ID, whereas the can I would use is a 1.5-in. OD. So if I go with a BCM 7-in. handguard, I need to go with a minimum 8-in. barrel or mill a little off the end of the handguard. Checked Geissele and ALG, and they are both too small on the ID to tuck the can inside at all.

If I go with an alternate handguard that has a larger ID that could slightly overlap the can, I could go with a 7.5- or even 7-in. barrel.

Anyone have suggestions of other handguards they like that have a >1.5-in. ID and aren't crazy expensive?

What barrel are you planning on? It looks like BCM only goes down to 9” in 300?

https://bravocompanyusa.com/300-blackout-barrels/

[OlongJohnson]

Been looking at Wilson Combat or KAK for 8-inch or maybe Faxon or PSA for 7.5-inch. Going up a tier in price, Seekins and McGowen seem to have good 8-inch options.

Looked at the Aero and Midwest Industries handguard mounts some. I'm liking the Seekins mount better than either of them, and online pricing is in the ballpark of others I've considered (BCM):

https://www.seekinsprecision.com/product/handguards/mcsr-rail.html


Faxon or PSA barrels take the whole thing down a notch in budget, making it almost cheap and cheerful. However, that length is also the source of the requirement to tuck the can, which has me looking at a rail system equal in price to the more expensive of these barrels. To be honest about my shooting abilities, unless I happen to get a bad one, they'll probably both be fine and hold up for many times the number of rounds that I'll ever put through this upper. But the PSA is out of stock and I've already been through an overall underwhelming experience with Faxon. The first barrel I bought from them was replaced due to poor machining after a four month delay and having to post a complaint thread here at P-F to get any kind of response, and the replacement is only just good enough and fixable - it's still the ugliest crown on any AR barrel I own. I have a long history of "the bad one" finding its way to my order on just about anything, but when the hand-selected replacement still isn't awesome, it says something about the overall population.

If I go with an 8-inch barrel, it's BCM handguard all the way, and just decide whether QRF or MLOK.

I have some consignment checks coming from the LGS, so budget isn't really the issue, except that it is always part of the optimization matrix. I want to be smart about it and have good value. In this case, that means pay a good price for what I get and keep the quality above a threshold of problems or obvious shortcomings. I like equipment to be good enough that if I suck, I can be confident it's me and not the gear. And if I'm honest about it, the differences in price I'm contemplating aren't much against the overall nut of the upper in a new caliber, dies, etc.

There's so much marketing hype out there, it's really difficult to figure out where the real value is and how much is just people cheering for what they happened to choose or the brand reputation. Outside people with credible competition results, there's almost no way to assess the qualifications or experience of people providing their opinions on the net, but people with credible competition results are playing a different game than I am, so they're not necessarily helpful for this one.

[El Cid]

What barrel are you planning on? It looks like BCM only goes down to 9” in 300?

https://bravocompanyusa.com/300-blackout-barrels/

Obviously not OJ, but I'd be comfortable with these makers/vendors.

Sub 9” bbls:

Noveske: https://dsgarms.com/upper-receiver-parts-nov07000031

Aero Precision (same company as Ballistic Advantage)
7.5” https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/7-5-300-blackout-ss-hanson-barrel-pistol-length-w-089-gas-port-pinned-gas-block (out of stock)

8” https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/300-blackout-8-cmv-barrel

8.3” https://www.ballisticadvantage.com/8-3-inch-300-blackout-hanson-pistol-performance-barrel.html

8.3” https://www.ballisticadvantage.com/8-inch-300-blackout-pistol-cmv-performance-barrel.html

8” https://www.ballisticadvantage.com/8-inch-300-blackout-pistol-cmv-modern-barrel.html

6” https://www.ballisticadvantage.com/6-inch-300-blackout-pistol-cmv-modern-barrel.html

V Seven:
5.5” https://www.rainierarms.com/v-seven-300-aac-blackout-barrel-5-5/?ssid=5ea04e291e0a2

6.5” https://www.rainierarms.com/v7-300-aac-blackout-barrel-6-5/?ssid=5ea04df193464

KAK (melonited) as mentioned by OlongJohnson
8.5” https://www.rainierarms.com/kak-value-line-300-blackout-pistol-melonite-barrel/?ssid=5ea04df21a9da (out of stock)

[rob_s]

Been looking at Wilson Combat or KAK for 8-inch or maybe Faxon or PSA for 7.5-inch.

Well now, that's interesting
https://faxonfirearms.com/faxon-7-5-gunner-profile-ar15-barrel-300-blk-nitride/

[OlongJohnson]

Yeah, but... (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?40912-Faxon-Firearms-quality-and-customer-service)

Ballistic Advantage is owned by Aero Precision. I would need to be convinced that there's any difference between their parts more meaningful than the engraved logo. I think of them as being in the same tier as Faxon; you will probably get serviceable parts, but the chance of quality issues is not as low as with a tier up.

Noveske is ~2x the price of others under discussion. A good enough price on their "Diplomat" length including a headspaced bolt could be attractive, but I don't see those in distribution.


--------------------------

I still don't know whether George's GR1 (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?41496-Let-s-talk-PDW-s&p=1033812&viewfull=1#post1033812) is a 21L or 26L. Would be useful information.

At 6'4", I'd be looking at the 26L. Would be nice to know if that is what GJM shows, or if I'd have another 2 inches in that bag.

[WobblyPossum]

I am really interested in hearing GJM’s thoughts as he continues to work with his Rattler. Whatever I end up with one day will likely be a toy for me, whether it be the APC9, Angstadt MDP9, etc, but I would still like for my toys to have the capability to be pressed into a real functional use. When GJM says that there might not be a point to owning something like the APC9 with things like the Rattler available, that gives me pause.

[Beat Trash]

I’m also interested in GJM’s thoughts as he spends more time with the Rattler. Especially any time he spends without a suppressor. To me, it would be a niche gun, much in the same way that a J-Frame was to me.

[HeavyDuty]

Yeah, but... (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?40912-Faxon-Firearms-quality-and-customer-service)

Ballistic Advantage is owned by Aero Precision. I would need to be convinced that there's any difference between their parts more meaningful than the engraved logo. I think of them as being in the same tier as Faxon; you will probably get serviceable parts, but the chance of quality issues is not as low as with a tier up.

Noveske is ~2x the price of others under discussion. A good enough price on their "Diplomat" length including a headspaced bolt could be attractive, but I don't see those in distribution.


--------------------------

I still don't know whether George's GR1 (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?41496-Let-s-talk-PDW-s&p=1033812&viewfull=1#post1033812) is a 21L or 26L. Would be useful information.

At 6'4", I'd be looking at the 26L. Would be nice to know if that is what GJM shows, or if I'd have another 2 inches in that bag.

Did BA get sold? Years ago he was a small shop, and I had him make me a couple of specialty .22LR AR barrels. Nice guy. Great quality.

[OlongJohnson]

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Ballistic Advantage | Aero Precisionwww.aeroprecisionusa.com › blog › post › ballistic-adv...
Jan 2, 2014 - As of December 5, 2014, Ballistic Advantage will operate as a majority owned subsidiary of Aero Precision. This partnership is a key component ...



Q. Do you make your own components in house?
A. We manufacture most parts in house, including upper receivers, lower receivers, handguards, scope mounts, and various other pieces. Our barrels are manufactured at our partner company Ballistic Advantage. (https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/faq)

[RevolverRob]

Looks like Agency Arms TP9 triggers are on the way

https://www.instagram.com/p/B_P7WgZlIk9/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Here I was thinking I was gonna get out of buying GJM's TP9.

Mike C - did you get the CSM trigger in yet?

[Grey]

Here I was thinking I was gonna get out of buying GJM's TP9.

Mike C - did you get the CSM trigger in yet?MikeC be dumping his TP9.

#APC9Kmasterrace (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=APC9Kmasterrace)

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk

[Tokarev]

I haven't gone through all 1100+ responses so forgive me if this one has been mentioned.

I have always liked the original PDW (M1 Carbine) and recently heard that Inland Mfg is making what's called the Advisor. This is their version of the bygone Enforcer pistol. Being based on an M1A1 stock, it doesn't look as homemade as the old Universal.

It would be kind of neat to buy an Advisor and pay the tax to make an SBR out of it. Or put a brace on there although it would be pretty hard finding a brace that would fit and didn't look like a complete hack job.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200422/eea930eab1077c2a65ea6aefe92c6f5a.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200422/8fad789e2fcdc099fde505371c99340c.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200422/9efdc258b2dc4143aa6791a95a2522ab.jpg

Ammo might be somewhat of a challenge. There are several places making soft point ammo but my guess is these bullets are more of less equivalent to FMJ and are probably only made so people can hunt in states that might not allow FMJ on game. Speer seems to have discontinued the Gold Dot but Hornady has a 110gr FTX that might be a good SD bullet.

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

[Mike C]

Here I was thinking I was gonna get out of buying GJM's TP9.

Mike C - did you get the CSM trigger in yet?

I decided not to mess with it and just sell the TP9. While I'm not completely incompetent with breaking stuff apart, (with exception of H&K's) I'm just past the point of wanting to mess with it. I want an out of the box solution. The APC9K basically does it for me for what I am wanting which is primarily a fun gun and travel companion I can easily lock up, stow or carry in a bag for transfer. It just sucks because I got rid of all my full sized Glocks for the "master race" G48/43X and now I want another G19 or G26 to pair with the APC for mag commonality despite being more than pleased with the single stacks.

Right now I am debating about getting on the 300 B.O. train yet again by following the Jones', AKA GJM, AKA worse enabler in PF history and just buy a Rattler. Better sense is stopping me at the moment but also the thought of knowing my luck. Seriously, most likely it would show up at my FFL bite me and then decide not to work. Hence me sticking with the APC for now. Well that and the Form 1 electronic filing came back in less than a month so there's that. I just need telescoping stock now, if only they'd arrive from the land of unobtainium. #1stworldproblems (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=1stworldproblems)

[LittleLebowski]

Did you guys buy all of the Rattlers at Brownells? :D

Out of stock. https://www.brownells.com/firearms/handguns/semi-auto/mcx-pistols-prod117004.aspx

[EPF]

I picked my Sig Rattler up this morning. It came as a package with a Romeo 4T, for about the same dollars as a black Rattler with no optic. I also retrieved my 8 inch .300 BLK AR after the Law adapter was installed. Here is a picture of the AR, APC9 Pro and the Rattler.

52533

First, I measured wrong and the eight inch AR with the Law adapter is shorter than I thought. It just barely squeezes in the GR1, and if you angle it just right, you can zip the pack. Would seem to limit the utility of the pack, as the AR fills most of it.

52534

By comparison, the Rattler is much smaller, and very close to APC9 Pro size. So close, I am not sure you would notice the difference. The APC9 weighs 5.6 pounds with optic, BUIS and TLR-8. The Rattler weighs 5.95 pounds with the Romeo 4T, but no light and BUIS installed yet. Here is the Rattler in the GR1.

52535

As a general rule, buying a Gen 1 Sig anything doesn’t end well, and I had held off on the Rattler after suffering through P320 and MPX teething pains. SouthNarc pushed me over the decision point on the Rattler, and so I have one.

Unboxing, my impression was this thing is SMALL. The brace was nice, the color was nice, and the trigger was a clean single stage that seemed appropriate for defensive use. Headed to the range to shoot pistols, and spent sometime at the end with the Rattler. Used just four rounds to get the Romeo 4T close to a rough zero. My first impression was that the Rattler was not nearly as loud as I was expecting, and it was very controllable. Here are all the rounds I fired with it, after my four rounds to rough zero it.


https://youtu.be/h4pWjqA0yZU

If the Rattler proves reliable, given how small it is and how controllable it is to shoot, I don’t get the argument for a semi auto 9mm like the APC9 Pro or SP5K.

Thanks for the detailed update! Between the FEDEX delays on pickup and the delay for in processing with the rush at my local shop I can’t pickup my rattler till next Tuesday. I’m breaking quarantine lockdown to do some shooting the next two Mondays so hopefully I can get some useful data.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts after you shake it out more.

[OlongJohnson]

Well now, that's interesting
https://faxonfirearms.com/faxon-7-5-gunner-profile-ar15-barrel-300-blk-nitride/

I'd been failing to pay attention to the details. Forgot that profile takes a 5/8" gas block.

[STI]

I'd been failing to pay attention to the details. Forgot that profile takes a 5/8" gas block.

Says .750 gas block and looks like it too. It’s 5/8-24 muzzle device threads though, maybe that’s what you read

[RevolverRob]

Wait - Did we determine - does the Rattler run with subsonics? And does it run suppressed with subs?

[OlongJohnson]

Says .750 gas block and looks like it too. It’s 5/8-24 muzzle device threads though, maybe that’s what you read

Ah, you're right. I was screwed up by a retailer web site that had pasted the generic Gunner profile description applicable to 5.56/Wylde barrels, and I remembered that from when I was looking at them last fall. No wonder I was able to look at the Faxon and its for the last three days and not notice this detail being off!

[Wondering Beard]

I haven't gone through all 1100+ responses so forgive me if this one has been mentioned.

I have always liked the original PDW (M1 Carbine) and recently heard that Inland Mfg is making what's called the Advisor. This is their version of the bygone Enforcer pistol. Being based on an M1A1 stock, it doesn't look as homemade as the old Universal.

It would be kind of neat to buy an Advisor and pay the tax to make an SBR out of it. Or put a brace on there although it would be pretty hard finding a brace that would fit and didn't look like a complete hack job.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200422/eea930eab1077c2a65ea6aefe92c6f5a.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200422/8fad789e2fcdc099fde505371c99340c.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200422/9efdc258b2dc4143aa6791a95a2522ab.jpg

Ammo might be somewhat of a challenge. There are several places making soft point ammo but my guess is these bullets are more of less equivalent to FMJ and are probably only made so people can hunt in states that might not allow FMJ on game. Speer seems to have discontinued the Gold Dot but Hornady has a 110gr FTX that might be a good SD bullet.

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

That would be interesting and it got me to wonder about something: 300 BLK ballistics.

I often hear the 300 BLK compared to the 7.62x39, but when it is being shot out of a real short PDW like barrel like the Rattler, don't we basically have 110gr bullets right around 2000fps, if not a little less?
If so, we then have a 110gr, 30 cal. bullet going at or near mach2, and that's .30 carbine ballistics, isn't it?

I remember Jim Cirillo saying that the .30 carbine was extremely effective in his shootings and the modern 110gr 300 BLK bullets should be much more effective.

So depending on barrel length, we have a round that can act like anything between 7.62x39 and .30 Carbine? If so, that makes the caliber that much more interesting, to me at least.

[Velo Dog]

I have always liked the original PDW (M1 Carbine) and recently heard that Inland Mfg is making what's called the Advisor. This is their version of the bygone Enforcer pistol.

Here is some information on the older "Enforcer" pistols. The smaller guns had a 9.5" barrel with a 17" overall length and weighed 4 pounds.
http://www.m1carbinesinc.com/carbine_ijenforcer.html

52582

[Pit]

GJM

Here's a pic (SIG web page) of the Rattler grip Sig started putting out some time ago. Made a point of advertising it was made just for the Rattler and it's mission. I have not seen one in person but it looks too small to me. FYI

I agree the Rattler in 300 blk is very controllable. On the range @ 25 yds is an overhead area. The bark becomes more pronounced here with the standard 3 prong flash suppressor. This is where the KX-5 style flash suppressor comes into its own by directing the blast outward.

JW

[Tokarev]

That would be interesting and it got me to wonder about something: 300 BLK ballistics.

I often hear the 300 BLK compared to the 7.62x39, but when it is being shot out of a real short PDW like barrel like the Rattler, don't we basically have 110gr bullets right around 2000fps, if not a little less?
If so, we then have a 110gr, 30 cal. bullet going at or near mach2, and that's .30 carbine ballistics, isn't it?

I remember Jim Cirillo saying that the .30 carbine was extremely effective in his shootings and the modern 110gr 300 BLK bullets should be much more effective.

So depending on barrel length, we have a round that can act like anything between 7.62x39 and .30 Carbine? If so, that makes the caliber that much more interesting, to me at least.Muzzle velocity is probably pretty close. Or similar at least. The M1 is rated at 2,000 fps from an 18" barrel. I assume it will be something like 1600 from a 12" tube. Even if M.V. start out close the Carbine suffers very poor ballistic coefficient.

But for PDW type stuff does the B.C. even matter? Academically it does but probably not much in practice.

Something like this might be a good round for the little 30:

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=426

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

[GJM]

Since the Rattler appears to be a keeper, I switched the Romeo 4T for a T2. Threw both optics on, to rough zero the T2 by making the two dots coincident. Took one adjustment to get the T2 zeroed at 50 yards with 110 Barnes.

Here are three rounds of Barnes, resting on the magazine, at 50 yards:

52584

Then I shot five rounds from sitting at 50 yards:

52585


Be careful not to crawl the charging handle, or it will give you a reminder whack on your lip!

I didn’t have time to shoot groups at 100 and 200, so that will have to wait for another day.

[GJM]

Reflecting on shooting this, this is basically a big pistol that shoots Barnes rifle bullets, optimized for a realistic personal defense distance envelope. I think I am going to add a bit of MLOK rail with a light and call it good.

52591

[LittleLebowski]

Reflecting on shooting this, this is basically a big pistol that shoots Barnes rifle bullets, optimized for a realistic personal defense distance envelope. I think I am going to add a bit of MLOK rail with a light and call it good.


No light? I’d consider something small, I’ve found that I often grab a light and handy rifle for the inevitable “what is the dog barking at” disturbances at night.

https://olightworld.com/led-flashlights/safety-and-self-defense/olight-pl-mini-2-valkyrie-ti

[Wondering Beard]

Muzzle velocity is probably pretty close. Or similar at least. The M1 is rated at 2,000 fps from an 18" barrel. I assume it will be something like 1600 from a 12" tube. Even if M.V. start out close the Carbine suffers very poor ballistic coefficient.

But for PDW type stuff does the B.C. even matter? Academically it does but probably not much in practice.

Something like this might be a good round for the little 30:

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=426

Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

That looks good, maybe a bit overpenetrative though?

Thing is you probably can get a 300 BLK in a real short barrel (under 9") to have the ballistics of a 30 Carbine out of an 18" barrel. Considering the distances at which the PDWs we're talking about are likely to get used, BC is probably not that important, I agree. I think that it's bullet design, especially to meet FBI/barrier blind standards, that matters more.

[rca90gsx]

So, while we are all reflecting on these 300 setups, how truly tolerable is the noise/concussion on the short barrel serups? I've read in the thread some are teeth rattling etc... I've also read that they are comparable to a 16" 5.56 carbine from perception. I appreciate all rhe input in this thread!


Reflecting on shooting this, this is basically a big pistol that shoots Barnes rifle bullets, optimized for a realistic personal defense distance envelope. I think I am going to add a bit of MLOK rail with a light and call it good.

52591

[Duces Tecum]

Reflecting on shooting this, this is basically a big pistol that shoots Barnes rifle bullets, optimized for a realistic personal defense distance envelope. I think I am going to add a bit of MLOK rail with a light and call it good.

The .300 BLK shoots the Remington 125 gr at a muzzle velocity of 2215 fps (unknown barrel length).
Muzzle velocity of the Federal 9mm 124 gr HST is 1135 fps (unknown barrel length).

Big pistol indeed.

References:
http://www.ballistics101.com/300aac_blackout.php
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mm

[HeavyDuty]

Reflecting on shooting this, this is basically a big pistol that shoots Barnes rifle bullets, optimized for a realistic personal defense distance envelope. I think I am going to add a bit of MLOK rail with a light and call it good.

52591

An old school 20 rounder? Do like.

[Xhado]

The .300 BLK shoots the Remington 125 gr at a muzzle velocity of 2215 fps (unknown barrel length).
Muzzle velocity of the Federal 9mm 124 gr HST is 1135 fps (unknown barrel length).

Big pistol indeed.

References:
http://www.ballistics101.com/300aac_blackout.php
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mm

Those 300Blk numbers are most likely with a 8"-9" barrel.

The 5.5" most likely pushes out a 125gr projectile out around 1800 fps.

[GJM]

Observing me shoot, my wife thinks the 8 inch .300 BLK is well quieter than a 16 inch 5.56, and the Rattler is slightly barkier than the 8 inch. Of course the Rattler is so small, I have room to throw a set of Sordin amplified ear pro in my pack.

[Velo Dog]

Big pistol indeed.

Comparing short barrel 300 BLK to pistol cartridges like 327 Federal Magnum and 7.62x25mm Tokarev is also interesting.

300 AAC Blackout makes for a VERY powerful "pistol".

[OlongJohnson]

The .300 BLK shoots the Remington 125 gr at a muzzle velocity of 2215 fps (unknown barrel length).
Muzzle velocity of the Federal 9mm 124 gr HST is 1135 fps (unknown barrel length).

Big pistol indeed.

References:
http://www.ballistics101.com/300aac_blackout.php
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mm

I've been thinking it's basically a .357 Magnum, maybe a little more, like .360 DW or .357 Max, with more aerodynamic projectiles loaded in cartridges that feed from common and inexpensive magazines.

Also realized that the whole braced pistol thing works just as well with a Contender, if you get the Choate M4 adaptor. So you can have a braced 14-in. .44 Magnum, if you think you might be OK with having your face that close to the muzzle of a .44 Magnum when it's fired. Might have interesting possibilities against squirrels with an HM2 barrel. But there's another thread for those ideas.

[Pit]

Reflecting on shooting this, this is basically a big pistol that shoots Barnes rifle bullets, optimized for a realistic personal defense distance envelope. I think I am going to add a bit of MLOK rail with a light and call it good.

52591

I've kept mine w/o a light. I've found thru presentation training repetitions, the more I put on the Rattler the more likely I was to snag something. I had to change up the sleeve I use to make sure the front sight, which I leave up, doesn't snag or slow me down. There's already enough going such as keeping eyes on the threat, unzipping bag, getting a good grasp on pistol grip, unfolding the brace, etc. that I'm trying to eliminate anything that isn't 100% necessary. A weapon light is a nice to have not a must have based on my experience.

JW

[Tokarev]

Comparing short barrel 300 BLK to pistol cartridges like 327 Federal Magnum and 7.62x25mm Tokarev is also interesting.

300 AAC Blackout makes for a VERY powerful "pistol".

327 Fed Mag throws a 100gr bullet to almost 1500 FPS from a snubbie revolver so it appears to do what the 30 Carbine does from a 12" barrel.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2019/5/30/the-underappreciated-32-magnums/

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2016/1/14/review-inland-mfgs-advisor-m1-pistol/

[El Cid]

For those with a Sig Rattler... what if any parts are common to AR’s? Would it require spares that are proprietary? Do Geissele triggers work?

[mmc45414]

Observing me shoot, my wife thinks the 8 inch .300 BLK is well quieter than a 16 inch 5.56

300 AAC Blackout makes for a VERY powerful "pistol".

I've been thinking it's basically a .357 Magnum, maybe a little more, like .360 DW or .357 Max, with more aerodynamic projectiles loaded in cartridges that feed from common and inexpensive magazines.

IMO much of the appeal of 300BO is it is a rifle cartridge that runs on pistol powders. More performance in short barrels, more complete combustion in longer barrels.

[OlongJohnson]

That works because the bullet is nearly the same diameter as the case, so the dynamics are like those of a pistol. I'd go so far as to say it's closer to being a pistol round than a rifle round. The contained combustion volume increases very rapidly relative to the fairly small case volume, which is why the faster burn rates of pistol powders are needed to maintain pressure on the bullet as it moves down the barrel. And the total mass of gas that can be produced by the modest powder charge mass is limited, so the return on a longer barrel is less.

Another reason for the greater performance in short barrels is that the larger diameter of the bullet means that for a given pressure, the force accelerating the bullet is greater. For a .308 diameter, the area is ~90 percent greater than for a .224 diameter. So more work is done (energy transferred) to the bullet in a shorter distance. Maintain the same pressure profile on the back of the bullet at each longitudinal point as it travels the length of the barrel, and you will impart ~90 percent more energy to the .308 bullet. (Simplifying the example by ignoring friction.)

At the other end of the spectrum, a .243 Win can use some of the same powders that work in big belted magnums, because the relationship of case volume to contained volume as the bullet moves is very similar. And they tend to be notably less blasty and gain more performance with a barrel at the longer end of the spectrum.

Personally, I didn't really see the point of .300 BLK as a rifle round. But this thread got me thinking about it as a pistol round, and for that, it's pretty cool.

A similar argument could be made about .350 Legend. It's straight wall, and uses the same powders as .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum. But it burns roughly the same mass of powder as a .44 Magnum while filling a .357 bore; I suspect a 20-in barrel is likely ballistically close to optimum. Should be quite amenable to handy 16- and 18-in barrels and even SBRs.

[Pit]

For those with a Sig Rattler... what if any parts are common to AR’s? Would it require spares that are proprietary? Do Geissele triggers work?

This is my understanding.

Compatible:
Muzzle device with SIG supplied adapter
Sights
Grip
Safety selector

Trigger are compatible if you remove the SIG firing pin safety.

JW

[EPF]

I've kept mine w/o a light. I've found thru presentation training repetitions, the more I put on the Rattler the more likely I was to snag something. I had to change up the sleeve I use to make sure the front sight, which I leave up, doesn't snag or slow me down. There's already enough going such as keeping eyes on the threat, unzipping bag, getting a good grasp on pistol grip, unfolding the brace, etc. that I'm trying to eliminate anything that isn't 100% necessary. A weapon light is a nice to have not a must have based on my experience.

JW



Interesting. For your purposes it really is similar to a pistol in that priority is a “speed draw” fast presentation to first shots against a close quarter immediate threat. Except with a rifle round.

The more I think about it the more I think that yes, it’s a niche weapon for an armed professional because an armed professional has a lot of long weapon options whether .mil or .gov/police. It seems like the rattler actually fills a larger percentage of the long gun roles in a civ capacity where concealment, portability, and discretion are more often top priority than to most armed professionals not similarly constrained. It’s a lot of capability for the size, the ultimate “bag gun” maybe?

Assuming any social use of a long gun by a law abiding citizen to be a “niche” from the jump, I’d say an extremely compact, reasonably controllable, highly concealable “long gun” launching a powerful rifle round to 100yrd might actually fill a much higher % of an average civilians need that the % of cops or commandos who could more easily move about with a traditional carbine.

I don’t think anyone would choose a “bag gun” to fight with all things being equal.

[Velo Dog]

327 Fed Mag throws a 100gr bullet to almost 1500 FPS from a snubbie revolver so it appears to do what the 30 Carbine does from a 12" barrel.
The 327 Fed Mag appears to perfectly match 30 carbine velocities from longer barrels.
http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/327mag.html

The 7.5x27mm FK Brno is another PDW cartridge that the 300 BLK compares to favorably.

In this video the 7.5 FK is compared to 9x19mm against body armor and against loaded AK magazines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nc-VGgg6Ec

[HeavyDuty]

I've been thinking it's basically a .357 Magnum, maybe a little more, like .360 DW or .357 Max, with more aerodynamic projectiles loaded in cartridges that feed from common and inexpensive magazines.

Also realized that the whole braced pistol thing works just as well with a Contender, if you get the Choate M4 adaptor. So you can have a braced 14-in. .44 Magnum, if you think you might be OK with having your face that close to the muzzle of a .44 Magnum when it's fired. Might have interesting possibilities against squirrels with an HM2 barrel. But there's another thread for those ideas.

I’ve had a thing for stocked Contenders since I was a teen in the late 70s - the Gander Mountain store in Wilmot, WI (the *real* GM) always had a display of them. Some day I will scratch the itch. But, as you said - that’s out of scope for this thread.

[Corse]

It doesn’t seem like any of those pistol rounds come anywhere close to a 300 blk at similar barrel lengths, especially at the same bullet weights for the smaller calibers (327, 7.5 weird, etc).

[OlongJohnson]

Check the .357.

http://ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html

That 110gr Corbon JHP has to be downloaded; there are multiple reasons to do so in a .357. But if it was loaded at the same pressures as the 125 gr stuff, it would be cooking right along.

Hodgdon's load data has 110gr at almost 2100 FPS from a 10-in barrel and 2400 FPS from an 18.5-in barrel at ~37 ksi with 296/110 powder.

For .300 BLK, they show 110 V-Max at 2300 FPS from a 16-in barrel with ~36 ksi. They also get there with 296/110, but pressure is 48.4 ksi.

Maximum powder charges for each overlap the same ranges.

.327 Fed Mag gets close to rifle pressure, hence its impressive short-barrel performance, but it's also a blasty little beast in those loads and barrels. It doesn't have as much powder to burn as .300 BLK or .357 Mag, though, so it's not going to be able to achieve the same maximum energy levels, even with a longer barrel. In my ballistic rabbit-holing .327 Fed Mag as a possible Contender cartridge, I ended up going from .327 Fed Mag to .30 Carbine to .30-30, at least for a rifle-length barrel. The ol' reliable .30-30 doesn't perform that well in a pistol-length barrel, which has driven the development of things like .30 Herret, with less case volume but higher max pressure in search of consistency with performance.

SAAMI piezo pressures are
.357 Mag 35 ksi
.327 Fed Mag 45 ksi
.300 BLK 55 ksi

The .300 BLK isn't magic, it just occupies and interesting little niche of physics.

[Velo Dog]

It doesn’t seem like any of those pistol rounds come anywhere close to a 300 blk at similar barrel lengths, especially at the same bullet weights for the smaller calibers (327, 7.5 weird, etc).

The .38 Casull from a 6" barrel appears to closely match 300 BLK from the 5.5" SIG Rattler.

124-grain bullet @1800 fps
147-grain bullet @1650 fps

[nalesq]

Can anyone comment on how blasty .300 BLK out of something like a Rattler is compared to 7.62x39mm out of a similarly short barreled AK?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[RevolverRob]

.300Blk does what it was designed to do well. Act like a 7.62x39 between 0-300y, use standard .308” bullets, fit in an AR15 magazine, and work in a rebarreled AR15 receiver.

To me - the gap between .300blk and a pistol round is pretty big at supersonic velocity. At subsonic velocity it appears the gap shrinks a lot - particularly when we compare .300blk and .45ACP.

9mm is kind of weak sauce across the board compared to a .300. And it only gains over a .45 in terms of capacity and shootability.

[Tokarev]

.300Blk does what it was designed to do well. Act like a 7.62x39 between 0-300y, use standard .308” bullets, fit in an AR15 magazine, and work in a rebarreled AR15 receiver.

My personal current favorite is a cartridge called the 277 Wolverine. It is a similar concept to the 300 Blackout but started life as a supersonic cartridge rather than a subsonic one.

The 277 is basically a 223 chopped off and necked up to accept a .277" bullet. Being a slightly longer case than 300, it has more powder capacity and will push a 90gr Speer TNT or Gold Dot to 2,600+ FPS depending on barrel length.

Being a slightly smaller bullet, the 277 stacks fine in common AR mags. No need to shave ribs from the inside of mags or use the tweaked mags from Magpul or D&H. I have yet to find a mag 277 won't stack in to include GI, Troy, Lancer or Magpul.

Even though the 277 is more of a "rifle" cartridge it can still be loaded for suppressed use. I have been able to load common 150gr bullets and get reliability while suppressed although heavier bullets work better.

The problem with the 277 is that it is a wildcat. Starline and Hornady both make brass and brass is easily cut from 223 cases. Lee Precision and Hornady make dies and bullets are easy to find. But there is no pressure tested loading data nor factory ammo. There are some places selling new commercial loaded bullets and brass but that's not really the same as factory ammo.

Anyway, here's what wikipedia has on the cartridge:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/.277_Wolverine

I think, had the cartridge been introduced before the 300, or before the 300 had become as popular, it would have caught on pretty well. As it sits now, not much is likely to happen without a major company taking some interest.


Sent from my SM-A505U using Tapatalk

[rob_s]

What’s the opinion on Maxim Defense?


https://youtu.be/aBoIk-BB9aw

[Tokarev]

What’s the opinion on Maxim Defense?


https://youtu.be/aBoIk-BB9awHas anyone created a reliable 7.62x39 AR mag?

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[rob_s]

Has anyone created a reliable 7.62x39 AR mag?

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I dunno. i was more using the video as click-bait. They make their guns in a variety of calibers.

[rob_s]

Right out of the gate this (https://www.maximdefense.com/terms-and-conditions/)would seem to be pretty off-putting re: Maxim...

TERMS AND CONDITIONS
SILENCERS:
IMPORTANT INFORMATION regarding silencers (cans, suppressors, etc.) on any Maxim Defense firearm:Maxim Defense Industries manufactures firearms to the highest standards in the industry and warrants our products against manufacturer defects for the lifetime of the original owner purchase.
Any aftermarket (Non-Maxim parts and components) modifications that alter the original manufacturer configuration of the product (Firearm, Upper or Accessories) void the manufacturer warranty. This includes removing and replacing the HATEBRAKE with a Suppressor.Maxim Defense does not warrant, assume any liability or responsibility for damages incurred, or injury resulting from, firing a Maxim Defense firearm with a suppressor.

[Tokarev]

Here's a PDW conversion kit from Troy. It looks more or less like the Maxim stock.

https://troyind.com/products/pdw-stock-kit-blk

I have used the Troy and it looks cool but it is somewhat uncomfortable. Not as forgiving with head placement and cheek weld as a BCM Gunfighter, Colt M4 waffle, VLTOR, etc. But it is slightly shorter than any of these if maximum shortness is a requirement.

Troy also has a similar design in their Tomahawk stock although it is a bit longer than the PDW.

https://troyind.com/products/stock-tomahawk-556-blk

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[Default.mp3]

What’s the opinion on Maxim Defense?


https://youtu.be/aBoIk-BB9awSteve Fisher seems to be a fan of them, preferring them over the Q Honey Badger and Sig Rattler.

[rob_s]

Any benefit to a Forward Assist on a PDW? and detriment to not having one?

I think I have a slick-side upper sitting around and I'm considering grabbing one of those Faxxon 7.5" barrels and some sort of cheap handguard to throw on it.

[SouthNarc]

Here's a video where the MAC guy shoots the Rattler out to 250 yards. It's kinda long but it's a pretty good overview of the little gun compared to the DD PDW.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2VRsPBqItk&t=471s

[rob_s]

Here's a video where the MAC guy shoots the Rattler out to 250 yards. It's kinda long but it's a pretty good overview of the little gun compared to the DD PDW.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2VRsPBqItk&t=471s

Probably (maybe?) a discussion for a different thread, but with all the talk about "blasty", does anyone know if the claims about the OSS suppressors are true regarding re-directing the sound?

might not be super applicable here since the shortest/lightest/ 7.62 can they appear to make looks like it's just under a pound and over 7" long, meaning it might not be ideal for a PDW anyway...

[mmc45414]

That works because the bullet is nearly the same diameter as the case, so the dynamics are like those of a pistol. I'd go so far as to say it's closer to being a pistol round than a rifle round.
So it is 357mag necked to .308, turns out there is such a thing as "30 X 357 Max".




Personally, I didn't really see the point of .300 BLK as a rifle round. But this thread got me thinking about it as a pistol round, and for that, it's pretty cool.
I sorta backed into the idea as a result of ruining some nice LC cases (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?37675-What-Bulk-Bullet-For-300BO&p=907402&viewfull=1#post907402). I was also AR Pistol/PDW curious, about the same time that PSA was selling uppers and lowers for about the same cost as a big bar tab, so mine is just a bunch of cheap stuff. It was more of a curiosity, but now that I have it I kind of dig it more than I expected. Here it is wearing the identical .223 upper, I bought both because I want to practice with a bunch of reloads on hand (that I wish I had done differently) and it was only $179. But gawd is it Obnoxious (with a capital O). And it is probably not much more powerful than a 32ACP, but I bought it for the cheap trigger time and I have the 300BO twin.
52613


A similar argument could be made about .350 Legend. It's straight wall, and uses the same powders as .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum. But it burns roughly the same mass of powder as a .44 Magnum while filling a .357 bore; I suspect a 20-in barrel is likely ballistically close to optimum. Should be quite amenable to handy 16- and 18-in barrels and even SBRs.
As I mentioned in the linked thread, I also bought the little Ruger American, and it is one mellow little thing to plink with, that might be an interesting suppressed SBR (or pinned), and if I ever get back to doing much Ohio deer hunting again I would probably pair it up with one in 350 Legend. But now that I am setup to load 300BO I will at least get a carbine upper in it.

[Velo Dog]

A loud gun can be comforting.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJCg9CCAJyI

[Grey]

A loud gun can be comforting.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJCg9CCAJyI

While I have never been in a shooting of any kind, I just can't believe this is line of thinking in the slightest... Someone explain to me why this makes sense please?

[rob_s]

A loud gun can be comforting.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJCg9CCAJyI

He carries a suppressed .22 in a backpack every day but we're supposed to accept his opinion on everything else? :confused:

This seems like one of those guys that wants to say "controversial" shit just to get clicks.

If only any of it was actually controversial...

[GJM]

A place I definitely prefer loud is around bears and other wild animals.

[WobblyPossum]

I’m pretty sure a suppressed 5.56 SBR would still be loud as shit in a bedroom or hallway. The other guy is going to know you’re shooting at him. I’d rather save my hearing and that of my loved ones.

[OlongJohnson]

Here's a PDW conversion kit from Troy. It looks more or less like the Maxim stock.

https://troyind.com/products/pdw-stock-kit-blk

I have used the Troy and it looks cool but it is somewhat uncomfortable. Not as forgiving with head placement and cheek weld as a BCM Gunfighter, Colt M4 waffle, VLTOR, etc. But it is slightly shorter than any of these if maximum shortness is a requirement.

Troy also has a similar design in their Tomahawk stock although it is a bit longer than the PDW.

https://troyind.com/products/stock-tomahawk-556-blk

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The objections to that for me are twofold:


Collapsed, it's longer than a folder on a conventional carbine RE.

Troy's marketing language states that it's intended for a carbine, so you have to be in the SBR game to use it with a PDW-length barrel, limiting its utility as a travel gun.




So it is 357mag necked to .308, turns out there is such a thing as "30 X 357 Max".

"Simpsons Contender guys did it." (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?156786-30-357-or-300-rimmed-BLK&p=1755450&viewfull=1#post1755450)

[oregon45]

"Simpsons Contender guys did it." (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?156786-30-357-or-300-rimmed-BLK&p=1755450&viewfull=1#post1755450)

Contender guys did most all of this back in the 1970s and 80s using 223 and 221 Fireball brass in Contenders and Remington XP100's. Elgin Gates' Gun Digest Book of Metallic Silhouette Shooting, Volume 1 (1979) contains extensive information about those developments. The only novel thing going on today is the effort to fit everything into an AR-15 magazine.

[mmc45414]

A place I definitely prefer loud is around bears and other wild animals.
I think might have been asked and answered, but when you are tromping around with a 300BO are you loading supers or subs? Solids or softs?

[GJM]

How about two separate new PDW threads — drills/shooting reports and the logistics of carrying/protecting/caring for the PDW?

[shane45]

I handled the Maxim, Rattler and Honeybadger. The Maxim seemed to have far better build quality than the other two. It also felt like it would stand up to abuse much better. The significant proprietary nature of the SIG gives me long term concerns. Having been researching for a while I think out of those three I would go with the Maxim. I believe they had an issue with the early releases in 300 Blk that was minor but needed to be addressed. Although the info about warranty is potentially concerning. But the other option that keeps my attention is the Bren 2 8" 762X39. On the suppressoor for home defence, I respectfully disagree with Lovell. But I havent found Lovell to be making statements for the sake of controversy, he just holds to his viewpoint regardless of its "popularity".

[OlongJohnson]

Contender guys did most all of this back in the 1970s and 80s using 223 and 221 Fireball brass in Contenders and Remington XP100's. Elgin Gates' Gun Digest Book of Metallic Silhouette Shooting, Volume 1 (1979) contains extensive information about those developments. The only novel thing going on today is the effort to fit everything into an AR-15 magazine.

Agreed. Thinking about it a bit more, the .30-357 Max is actually attractive vs. a .30 Herrett in a Contender. Both rimmed cartridges. .357 Max SAAMI pressure is 40 ksi, .30-30 SAAMI pressure is 42 ksi, so basically the same. .357 Max has a smaller case head, though, so should make less breech thrust for the pressure. And if you can make it just by running it into a .300 BLK die, that's easier.

------------------
Amazon's automated ad creation is winning today.

52616

[Corse]

The 277 wolverine is interesting as a supersonic PDW round. It looks to be about 90% of the performance of a 6.8. For sub sonic the 300 blk seems to have quite an advantage, of course it took a while to get any decent subsonic bullets.

I don’t see the rimmed pistol rounds and bottle necked rimless cartridges competing with 300 in a PDW. Maybe is a lever action. Besides magazine feeding issues for those pistol cartridges, the use of rifle projectiles at rifle velocities (bc, designed expansion envelope) is a big plus for the 300.

[rca90gsx]

Sounds like a solid plan to more easily stay on more of a focused topic.


How about two separate new PDW threads — drills/shooting reports and the logistics of carrying/protecting/caring for the PDW?

[HCM]

A place I definitely prefer loud is around bears and other wild animals.

https://ia800301.us.archive.org/15/items/Mindwebs_230/Mindwebs-820804__TheGunWithoutABang.mp3

[Tokarev]

The 277 wolverine is interesting as a supersonic PDW round. It looks to be about 90% of the performance of a 6.8. For sub sonic the 300 blk seems to have quite an advantage, of course it took a while to get any decent subsonic bullets.

90% is probably about right. Some will argue that the 10% reduction is a big deal although I'll counter with the ability to use common AR mags that either offer a full 30 round capacity or do so without an increased length.

The subsonic realm isn't really where the 277 was designed to live since the 300 already has that pretty well sewn up. With that said, the Wolverine does okay here. Ideally a shooter would use bullets in the 160+ grain range but these aren't common in caliber .270. Woodleigh makes a heavy bullet but it is expensive. Berger makes a long and heavy .270 bullet but it won't seat in a Wolverine case.

6.8 SPC doesn't suppress well because the case really isn't made to seat longer/heavier bullets.



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[Velo Dog]

A loud gun can be comforting.

"However, the authoritative FBI reconstruction film Firefight from the 1980s, includes Mireles discussing the popping sounds of other agents’ .38s and 9mms as sounding distinct from the louder reports of McNeill’s .357 Magnum rounds, and what he called the psychologically devastating Ka-Booms of Platt’s .223 rifle."

https://americanhandgunner.com/the-ayoob-files/25-years-after-the-fbi-firefight-the-late-emerging/

[vandal]

Pit What is the sleeve you are using? I'd like to find something that...


Velcros onto the back panel of the bag
Stays open for re-insertion
Keeps the gun from bouncing/shifting in the bag
Can support the weight of the Rattler so the bottom of the bag doesn't have to support the weight (maybe this is an unnecessary criteria)


I used to have a Blackhawk/CQD "weapon catch" that could be ideal if there were a solid way to attach it.

On the light issue I briefly tried a small Modlite on an offset mount but the hanging up was definitely a thing. Went back to an X300 at 12:00 with the now-discontinued Unity Tactical x300 switch shroud.


I've kept mine w/o a light. I've found thru presentation training repetitions, the more I put on the Rattler the more likely I was to snag something. I had to change up the sleeve I use to make sure the front sight, which I leave up, doesn't snag or slow me down. There's already enough going such as keeping eyes on the threat, unzipping bag, getting a good grasp on pistol grip, unfolding the brace, etc. that I'm trying to eliminate anything that isn't 100% necessary. A weapon light is a nice to have not a must have based on my experience.

JW

[Tokarev]

Here's some info on the DD PDW:

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2020/4/22/range-tested-daniel-defense-ddm4-pdw/

[Pit]

Pit What is the sleeve you are using? I'd like to find something that...


Velcros onto the back panel of the bag
Stays open for re-insertion
Keeps the gun from bouncing/shifting in the bag
Can support the weight of the Rattler so the bottom of the bag doesn't have to support the weight (maybe this is an unnecessary criteria)


I used to have a Blackhawk/CQD "weapon catch" that could be ideal if there were a solid way to attach it.

On the light issue I briefly tried a small Modlite on an offset mount but the hanging up was definitely a thing. Went back to an X300 at 12:00 with the now-discontinued Unity Tactical x300 switch shroud.


I'm using the Vertx MPH full size pouch. I took the different sections and made a sleeve the forearm slides into. This and a 30rd magazine bottomed out in the bag keeps the Rattler at a good angle for presentation. Not ideal and the search continues.

[RevolverRob]

Damnit - Rainier Arms had a Canebrake in stock yesterday, I called them this morning to put it on Layaway and it had sold. :mad: I know there are a few in stock out there, but I intended to use layaway on one, since it'll be probably July before I get back to my FFL in Tejas.

I've decided to go for the Canebrake version of the Rattler. I'm basically planning on setting it up:

Faux-Can/Long Handguard for home

No-Faux/Short Handguard for travel

The ability to swap handguards in seconds will allow me a lot of leeway in that regard. I think it's something Sig really got right with the Gen2 MCX design. When I get out of Chiraq - I'll ditch the faux-can for a real can. Bob's your uncle - I've got my suppressed house gun/travel gun all in-one.

[TGS]

While I have never been in a shooting of any kind, I just can't believe this is line of thinking in the slightest... Someone explain to me why this makes sense please?

I think it's pretty well accepted common belief that blasts (not just loud noise, but concussive shit that makes your eyeballs feel a pressure differential) have a psychological impact. It's up to the discipline and commitment of your adversary as to whether it will contribute to a psychological stop, but it certainly has merit.

I'm with DanM though. I'm going to use a suppressor if available. I have full faith that Trophy Bonded Bear Claw will get the job done on its own without needing concussive blast to back it up. Tactical teams across the US have been steadily moving toward suppressors, and I haven't heard of them seeing less stops when shooting people. Therefore, I will take the advantages that a suppressor gives.

As for blast, has anyone here shot a 5.56 shorty in a hallway type setting with a blast forward device (linear comp, diffuser, whatever you want to call it)?

[CleverNickname]

I'm interested in converting one of my SBR'ed AR15 lowers (that currently sports a 5.56mm upper) into a 300 BLK Rattler-ish thing, which means a folding stock. I don't particularly want to get a 5.5" Rattler conversion kit+upper since they're fairly expensive at ~$1800, and they seem to be out of stock pretty much everywhere anyways. The LAW folder disgusts me for reasons I can't quite put to words. Are there any other options for a ~6" 300 BLK AR15 with a true folding stock or am I SOL? A BRN-180S in 300 BLK is sort of what I'm looking for.

[TGS]

I'm interested in converting one of my SBR'ed AR15 lowers (that currently sports a 5.56mm upper) into a 300 BLK Rattler-ish thing, which means a folding stock. I don't particularly want to get a 5.5" Rattler conversion kit+upper since they're fairly expensive at ~$1800, and they seem to be out of stock pretty much everywhere anyways. The LAW folder disgusts me for reasons I can't quite put to words. Are there any other options for a ~6" 300 BLK AR15 with a true folding stock or am I SOL? A BRN-180S in 300 BLK is sort of what I'm looking for.

Is the folding stock a hard go/no-go item?

If not, have you looked at the PDW collapsible stocks available?

Otherwise I think you're SOL. I'd just spend the money on a Rattler if I were you.

[shane45]

Damnit - Rainier Arms had a Canebrake in stock yesterday, I called them this morning to put it on Layaway and it had sold. :mad: I know there are a few in stock out there, but I intended to use layaway on one, since it'll be probably July before I get back to my FFL in Tejas.

I've decided to go for the Canebrake version of the Rattler. I'm basically planning on setting it up:

Faux-Can/Long Handguard for home

No-Faux/Short Handguard for travel

The ability to swap handguards in seconds will allow me a lot of leeway in that regard. I think it's something Sig really got right with the Gen2 MCX design. When I get out of Chiraq - I'll ditch the faux-can for a real can. Bob's your uncle - I've got my suppressed house gun/travel gun all in-one.

I'm sure you knew this and please fact check me but I think the canabrake does not have the switchable gas block. It either needs the fake can or a real one to run. Also double check what handgiards can be had. There were some limitations there too when I looked into it..

[El Cid]

I'm interested in converting one of my SBR'ed AR15 lowers (that currently sports a 5.56mm upper) into a 300 BLK Rattler-ish thing, which means a folding stock. I don't particularly want to get a 5.5" Rattler conversion kit+upper since they're fairly expensive at ~$1800, and they seem to be out of stock pretty much everywhere anyways. The LAW folder disgusts me for reasons I can't quite put to words. Are there any other options for a ~6" 300 BLK AR15 with a true folding stock or am I SOL? A BRN-180S in 300 BLK is sort of what I'm looking for.

The Robarm micro is one option but just based on what I’ve read in this thread I’d avoid it. Another really quality option would be the B&T APC300. They have one with an 8” bbl. but they are expensive.