HK USP 45 field pistol

[GJM]

Moderator Note: The posts leading to the creation to this thread can be found here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?16537-Prequel-to-45-Super-thread

I guess it is time to stop polluting the S&W 1076 thread, and start a USP 45 thread.

Here is the deal. When I moved to Alaska in 2002, I was carrying a four inch S&W 629 in the field for protection around bears and large animals. I was also frequently shooting a revolver as a primary handgun. The positive was six reliable shots of a proven, hard cast penetrating load. The negative was it weighed a lot, held relatively few cartridges, and frankly was not pleasant to shoot with full power ammo. I most often carried the wheel gun in a Blade Tech OWB kydex holster on a Wilderness belt, with a Galco 2x2x2 ammo holder, a Leatherman and a Surefire 6P. I wore this rig over my pants, waders, whatever. It was not concealed at all, which was't a factor. I was unable to wear this rig flying and transitioned the revolver to a shoulder holster in the aircraft.

I experimented with some smaller revolvers, most happily with a Bowen tuned four inch stainless Blackhawk .44 magnum. It was more comfortable to shoot with full power loads, as the gun rolled in your hand. After taking the Gunsite Backcountry course twice, I became convinced that a single action revolver may be great at many things, but as a fighting handgun (animals), the DA revolver offered too many advantages to not carry. When the Scandium 329 revolvers came out, I instantly got one for my wife and I. So did a bunch of other pilots. They were great to carry, but not great to shoot. I ultimately had a half dozen, between my wife and I, all tuned by Bowen. It got so bad, that during periodic function testing, I would shoot three rounds in my right hand, transfer the revolver to my left hand, and finish the last three shots. My wife basically said the only way she was shooting a whole cylinder was at a bear. She is a strong shooter, but would rather shoot a four inch S&W .500.

As I transitioned back into shooting semi auto pistols as primary, my wife increasingly shot a Glock. She asked why we shot thousands of rounds of 9 and .40, 18 rounds a year of .44 magnum, and were carrying a revolver. She started first carrying a Glock 20 and 29, and I followed suit. We assumed that just as a Glock 17 shot most all 9mm ammo, that the Glock 20 would shoot most all 10mm ammo reliably. We picked 10mm loads based on our assessment of the ability of the bullet to perform on a moose or bear. Those loads were often hard to get in quantity and very expensive. Through trial and error, we realized that many high performance 10mm loads would not function reliably in the Glock 20 and 29. My wife's solution was to use 200 XTP factory ammo, which did run. I tried a variety of other pistols, including the Glock 22 with a KKM barrel, and the S&W 1066/1076.

I was especially high on the 1066/1076, and it seemed to function with a range of the higher performance loads. The downside of the 1066/1076 was that they were expensive, harder to get, heavy, and not well supported for sights, parts, magazines and holsters. This spring, during my beginning of the season testing, I encountered the hard cast loads that I favored, would not function reliably in the 1066/1076.

Last winter, during the HK sale, and being a HK fan boy at heart, I bought a USP 45 on a lark, as a possible .45 Super launcher. My due diligence was nothing more than reading HK Pro and it being an HK. For different reasons, I didn't get to shoot the USP until early June. It functioned 100 percent reliably from round one, and has continued to function 100 percent reliably with about 600 rounds of Buffalo Bore .45 Super 230 FMJ-FP ammo and an assortment of .45 acp ball and JHP ammo. Besides functioning, it just feels like the pistol digests it without stress. That differs from some pistols, that just feel like they are unhappy shooting certain loads.

To support the USP, I of course got a second one. :) I also got a JM George, a Fricke Gideon, a Fricke Gideon that mounts on a Safariland QLS fork, and I have a Safariland retention holster on special order. I LOVE that I can shoot garden variety .45 through it, which is much less costly and more available than 10mm, and I can run .45 Super ammo in the field. Both types of ammo shoot close enough POI, that walk back drills to 75 yards with an eight inch plate are doable mixing ammo. I have Trijicon HD sights and an HK match trigger waiting to be installed in my USP #2. I really like double action in a field pistol that may be operated in cold, wet, unhappy circumstances. While I train to move the thumb safety with my presentation, I most often leave the thumb safety off in the holster.

The USP is small enough I can carry it concealed with the JM George. It is light enough that it doesn't bug me on ridge climbs. It holds enough cartridges, 12, that I feel like I have a chance with a sow and two cubs. The trigger guard is big, for use with gloves. An unintended benefit, is I know I am carrying a bigger HK than Darryl.

.44/.45 caliber ammo in the 250 grain at 1,050 fps range has been killing a lot of game for years. The .45 Super 230 FMJ-FP is just over 1,100 fps in the USP.

Here is my set-up:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/IMG_0268_zps1yb3d1go.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/IMG_0268_zps1yb3d1go.jpg.html)

[JDM]

Fantastic thread, G! I'll be reading with interest.

You're not interested in an LEM variant?

Also, does HK offer a version of the USP where the safety functions only as a safety, and does not decock the gun? Have you had any problems riding the safety and decocking under recoil?


When I first started carrying a gun everyday, it was a full size USP .45. I'd like a reason to get another one or two.

[GJM]

Fantastic thread, G! I'll be reading with interest.

You're not interested in an LEM variant?

Also, does HK offer a version of the USP where the safety functions only as a safety, and does not decock the gun? Have you had any problems riding the safety and decocking under recoil?


When I first started carrying a gun everyday, it was a full size USP .45. I'd like a reason to get another one or two.

Not interested at all in LEM for the way I use this pistol, as I would rather have DA on shot one, SA for the rest, and a thumb safety to use when I want.

I used to have the decocking problem with the HK45 and 45C, and went to variant 9 plates, before switching to LEM in those guns. Have never had the riding the safety/decocking issue with the USP. Perhaps the geometry is different, or perhaps it is now because I ride dominant thumb over the outside of my support thumb, which TLG taught me is Sig and HK slide stop friendly.

[JDM]

Ah! I do the same thing with my thumbs now, because SIGs. I believe Todd showed me that as well.

Perhaps it's time to revisit the USP!

Thanks buddy.

[YVK]

Not interested at all in LEM for the way I use this pistol...

Translation from the Alaskan: first shot out of basically unshootable 16 lbs DA into the dirt, for the hope that the bear will run away, after that a mag dump out of a decent SA that's easier to run fast than LEM.

[1slow]

Thanks for making this endeavor and thread.

[Default.mp3]

Also, does HK offer a version of the USP where the safety functions only as a safety, and does not decock the gun?

This is all you need to convert a variant 1/2 (DA/SA) to a variant 9/10 (psuedo-SAO, since it still fires in DA in a second-strike scenario or thumb decocking): http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/Detent-Plate-For-HK45-USP-Variant-5-6-9-10-200p1247.htm. Swapping the plate in my HK45 took about 90 seconds with a hammer and a multitool acting as an improvised punch, and that's with me being unfamiliar with how to do it and not watching any YouTube vids; I'd imagine the USP is just as easy.

Off-topic, but I've always found the full-sized USPs to be a very aesthetically pleasing gun, far more so than my P30LS. Too bad they lack the ambi features of their newer cousins in the P-series.

[CCT125US]

Nice write up. The USP 45 was the first handgun I ever purchased. I foolishly sold it a number of years later, and hadn't thought of it until just now. Thanks

[LSP552]

I've followed GJM's bear pistol threads with interest since I arrived on PF. The wife and I love Alaska and we are up there about every other year. Usually I'm carrying a Blackhawk with stout .45 Colt hard cast loads. I shoot the Blackhawk well but would really like to find a service type pistol for all the reasons mentioned above. The G20 seemed like the obvious choice, except for the reliability issues.

I'm not sure I'd trust a .40 S&W in that role. I think I also remember GJM reported problems with the G22 with KKM also. If I felt the .40 was adequate, I'd likely pick up a P226 (or maybe 320) in that caliber to run hard cast loaded to the max. My guess is the SIG would run those better than the G22, which has always been Glock's problem child. The SIG would be a good choice for me because I have lots of time with them.

I had never considered the .45 Super option. For the most part, I'm not an HK fan. LSP972 had tried in the past and I've put a fair number of rounds through his arsenal. I find the DA/SA HK trigger pretty sucky and my stepson has a .45c with a DA pull that is completely unmanageable. I don't like the LEM in general, but I might consider it on a field pistol.

[Beat Trash]

"An unintended benefit, is I know I am carrying a bigger HK than Darryl."

This should be reason enough...

I am very interested in where this concept goes for you.

[JHC]

Subscribed! Based on only a modest amount of borrowed HK shooting I liked the angular 2x4 - ish USP vs curvy roundness of more modern designs, for a solid locked in grip and return to same after reloading. Have you or will you benchmark it on common drills/tests?

[GJM]

Subscribed! Based on only a modest amount of borrowed HK shooting I liked the angular 2x4 - ish USP vs curvy roundness of more modern designs, for a solid locked in grip and return to same after reloading. Have you or will you benchmark it on common drills/tests?

The first day I shot it, which I reported in some thread that I have forgot, I shot seven yard bills drills (2.5-2.75), and arrays that I did with my 320 and CZ, at maybe 15 percent slower with the USP. My first DA shot is slower, my splits are slower and my reload is slower.

I almost don't care about benchmarking or shooting it much further on the timer, because I got the USP for reliability, not pure shooting speed performance, and the timer doesn't measure reliability and being able to launch a 257 power factor flat point. See, that is how HK guys roll. :)

[JHC]

The first day I shot it, which I reported in some thread that I have forgot, I shot seven yard bills drills (2.5-2.75), and arrays that I did with my 320 and CZ, at maybe 15 percent slower with the USP. My first DA shot is slower, my splits are slower and my reload is slower.

I almost don't care about benchmarking or shooting it much further on the timer, because I got the USP for reliability, not pure shooting speed performance, and the timer doesn't measure reliability and being able to launch a 257 power factor flat point. See, that is how HK guys roll. :)

Thanks for repeating. I think I did read that but I thought this will be a great thread for those to be summed in. I get the point of not chasing equal speed performance (2.5 is not shabby at all). It is cool to at least know how little degradation there actually is. Like when I was matching 629 vs G22/G31 with hard bullets as a field pistol. Time to put 3 on a 4x6 card at 7 and 10 yards was illuminating. The .44 disadvantage was gigantic. 9mm was faster still but the difference not that profound.

[1slow]

The first day I shot it, which I reported in some thread that I have forgot, I shot seven yard bills drills (2.5-2.75), and arrays that I did with my 320 and CZ, at maybe 15 percent slower with the USP. My first DA shot is slower, my splits are slower and my reload is slower.

I almost don't care about benchmarking or shooting it much further on the timer, because I got the USP for reliability, not pure shooting speed performance, and the timer doesn't measure reliability and being able to launch a 257 power factor flat point. See, that is how HK guys roll. :)

I think for times to be relevant they would have to be judged against another reliable handgun with the same, 230-250gr @ 1050-100 fps, power.

[GJM]

I think for times to be relevant they would have to be judged against another reliable handgun with the same, 230-250gr @ 1050-100 fps, power.

You just expressed in words what I have been thinking subconsciously. I won't trade shootability for reliability in this pistol, given its use.

No doubt, I would shoot a Glock 20 better, especially time to shot one and the reload. The 1076/1066 is pretty much a toss up with the USP In terms of performance. The thing that got me interested in the 1076/1066 was reliability, and when that didn't pan out, it was reliability that again got me to the USP. The alternatives are revolvers, and the USP beats them in terms of capacity and weight (and shoot ability for the lightweight Scandium that compares in weight to the USP).

[JodyH]

I almost don't care about benchmarking or shooting it much further on the timer, because I got the USP for reliability, not pure shooting speed performance, and the timer doesn't measure reliability <<< removed non-relevant info >>>. See, that is how HK guys roll. :)
I'm going to save this modified quote and use it out of context at some point in the future.
:cool:

[okie john]

Great thread. Definitely going to follow it closely.


Okie John

[GJM]

I'm going to save this modified quote and use it out of context at some point in the future.
:cool:

of course, the rest of the quote should be, that in many instances HK pistols in 9mm are like wearing combat boots to a black tie/dancing event.

[HCM]

George,

Given the compatablity of the USP 45 and 45 Super, how do you think a USP 40 would fare with the hit 40 cal hard castoads you previously tried in the Glock 22?

BTW - I previously had a 45 Expert and a 45 Tactical - the match trigger is nice and well worth the cost.

[LSP972]

... in many instances HK pistols in 9mm are like wearing combat boots to a black tie/dancing event.

I had to think about that one for a minute… but you're absolutely right.

.

[Malamute]

of course, the rest of the quote should be, that in many instances HK pistols in 9mm are like wearing combat boots to a black tie/dancing event.

You say that like its a bad thing?

Good thread, I've been watching the self loader field gun stuff for some time. I'm not ready to switch yet, but am watching with interest. The 4" 29 doesnt bother me to carry in the hills (and once in a while a spare), but I'm not closed to new ideas.

[GJM]

George,

Given the compatablity of the USP 45 and 45 Super, how do you think a USP 40 would fare with the hit 40 cal hard castoads you previously tried in the Glock 22?


I don't know. First, it hasn't been resolved to my satisfaction that hard cast is simpatico with the HK barrel rifling. Second, the .40 Double Tap 200 grain hard cast is listed, as I recall, at about 1,000 fps or just over. I think, all things considered in a similar sized pistol, I would take 230 grains at just over 1,100 fps rather than 200 grains at around or just over 1,000 fps in the .40. Not sure the difference in pressure for the .40 hard cast versus the .45 Super, and that would be something to look at.

Would there be any other advantages to .40 over .45 for the field gun? I am assuming more cartridges in the .40, but that is just a guess.


You say that like its a bad thing?

Good thread, I've been watching the self loader field gun stuff for some time. I'm not ready to switch yet, but am watching with interest. The 4" 29 doesnt bother me to carry in the hills (and once in a while a spare), but I'm not closed to new ideas.

I just wanted my second part on record in case Jody uses my own quote against me in the future. :) Joking aside, overbuilt is generally a good thing for tools used for serious.

Chasing a bird dog around, I spend a few hours a day out hiking, often in the hills. Usually have a shotgun with me, too. I really do appreciate a lighter weight handgun, as long as it doesn't come at the cost of reliability or shoot ability. I also frequently transition between in/near town and out, and while I have nothing against open carry in the field, I really do prefer being able to discreetly AIWB a full size, field handgun under a t shirt. I sent YVK a picture last night, of me standing on a river gravel bar 100 miles from anywhere, with the USP on under a tight-ish FR turtleneck. I think he commented that while he could see it was there, a Polish hooker wouldn't notice, or words to that effect. (Why that analogy, only he would be able to answer.)

[JHC]

George,

Given the compatablity of the USP 45 and 45 Super, how do you think a USP 40 would fare with the hit 40 cal hard castoads you previously tried in the Glock 22?

BTW - I previously had a 45 Expert and a 45 Tactical - the match trigger is nice and well worth the cost.


yeah baby. Somebody find out.

[HCM]

Re .40 USP barrels - Jarvis offers conventionally rifled USP barrels. I also recall LSP 972 talking about shooting lead in HK barrels with no ill effects.

[CCT125US]

I don't know. First, it hasn't been resolved to my satisfaction that hard cast is simpatico with the HK barrel rifling.

My USP had well over 20K of hard cast through it. The barrel was cleaned every 100 rounds or so. I used the "dip", and appropriate PPE. It was an issue, but workable.

[LSP972]

My USP had well over 20K of hard cast through it. The barrel was cleaned every 100 rounds or so. I used the "dip", and appropriate PPE. It was an issue, but workable.

This. You can indeed shoot lead in a polygonal bore, but there are caveats, as noted above.

.

[john c]

My USP had well over 20K of hard cast through it. The barrel was cleaned every 100 rounds or so. I used the "dip", and appropriate PPE. It was an issue, but workable.

What's the "dip"?

[imp1295]

I'm still thinking about it. I'm slow at times.

[John Hearne]

What's the "dip"?

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/3AmlpovmIKq37Lkck-AJJxQxEojbsq3gn4JmPmwtN9822mzTgApRN672eiikOD4YmyIQ q0yb4mKrjMO6sCErgA42jvDOGYd1CyrMHSZx1H6gSAFOGP3gXD NB_rxAVUKF=w506-h281

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[Jakus]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that you had at least one 10mm 1911. Where did those fit into your handgun journey from revolver to Glock to 1076 to USP? Was weight the main drawback to the platform?

I was under the impression that a high quality 1911 could be setup to shoot well with several cartridges that would seem to fit the bill, ie 10mm, 45 super, 460 Roland, etc.

[GJM]

I have one or two Delta Colt 1911's in 10mm. I just have never warmed to carrying a 1911 as a field handgun while wading in streams, moose hunting in bogs, being out in extreme cold, shooting with gloves, etc. Next year, I probably will shoot a STI in USPSA Limited, so my feelings might change.

I will say that my main JoJo's tuned Delta 10mm has never malfunctioned.

[MRW]

Great thread. Thanks for putting the time in to document the results of your testing. I've been following the various threads on semi-autos for backwoods carry. I'm currently in the lower 48 so I've been carrying 686-5 but have been looking at something lighter that holds more rounds like a Glock 20 or 29. The reliability issues with the heavier ammo have given me pause though. I do have a USP 45 sitting in the cabinet I picked up a while back. Looks like I probably can save myself some expense and still fit my needs with it. Thanks again.

[rauchman]

Excellent thread.

GJM, do you find the USP is getting beaten up more than normal shooting the 45 Super loads? Are you replacing parts/springs at a quicker interval?

Are the HK45's also rated for 45 super?

[1slow]

Not GJM, but HK MK23 and HK USP 45s can use .45 super in stock condition. hkpro goes into this a lot. HK45,HK45c, USPc evidently are not as suitable for Super.
American Handgunner 2002 Tactical Annual's USP article said 6000 rounds of .45 Super were run through a stock USP 45 without issue.
The S&W 1076 and HK USP .45 Super threads had some of this.

Would the moderators be willing to combine the all HK .45 Super together ?

[JDM]

Would the moderators be willing to combine the all HK .45 Super together ?

I'll work on this when I get in front of a computer a little later on.

[1slow]

Thanks!

[JDM]

The posts leading to the creation of this thread can be found here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?16537-Prequel-to-45-Super-thread

I could not figure out a way to insert the posts without making this thread ugly. Vbulletin places posts in chronological order when moving posts between threads, which would have put GJM's first post in this thread 34 posts after the beginning of the thread.

[okie john]

Robertson Trading Post has police trade-in (Roanoke, VA) USP 45's for under $600 with one mag.


Okie John

[Dagga Boy]

of course, the rest of the quote should be, that in many instances HK pistols in 9mm are like wearing combat boots to a black tie/dancing event.

Or flip flop's....:p

Just read this thread. Good information and the USP 45 makes sense in this role. It can handle it. I love my Ruger Alaskan (and all my other bear guns........which are an excuse to buy revolvers I don't need, but like). Realistically, for me this may be a new found role for my stainless USP .45. Great stuff and I think this makes far more sense than .40 or 10mm in their platforms.

[JHC]

GJM - can you qualify (deliberately avoided "quantify") the respective rapid fire handling characteristics of the USP shooting Supers and your other recent primary field pistols say 1076, G29 and G22? Not raw speed and splits necessarily; you already covered that pure speed performance is not the purpose here. Got that part.

I agree with the track here; a USP45 sounds like the best mousetrap for this role yet. But just as some carry deep penetrating .357 loads because the .44 is too much I'm curious how an experienced shooter assesses handling at speed between these.

Yeah the Super is throwing more oomph but it's a bigger fatter gun so maybe that evens that out some.

[GJM]

GJM - can you qualify (deliberately avoided "quantify") the respective rapid fire handling characteristics of the USP shooting Supers and your other recent primary field pistols say 1076, G29 and G22? Not raw speed and splits necessarily; you already covered that pure speed performance is not the purpose here. Got that part.

I agree with the track here; a USP45 sounds like the best mousetrap for this role yet. But just as some carry deep penetrating .357 loads because the .44 is too much I'm curious how an experienced shooter assesses handling at speed between these.

Yeah the Super is throwing more oomph but it's a bigger fatter gun so maybe that evens that out some.

In an early outing, I was shooting about 2.5 second Bill drills at 7 yards with regular .45 and about 2.75 with .45 Super. That is comparable with the 1076 and Glock 29, slower than a Glock 22. (Sig 320 about 2.0 seconds.) Yesterday, I shot some 230 Ranger out of my #2 USP before it goes back to HK for the match trigger. It is about .20 slower to shot one than my tweaked Sig 320. Pure splits are slower, but not too much on transitions. It is quite easy to shoot at distance. I will retest after I get the match trigger installed. Of course, if you figure in a stoppage, the USP is far ahead. :)

I almost tagged a porcupine at the front step yesterday afternoon with the USP and Super loads, but I ended up with a few extra seconds and grabbed the Benelli M2 and low brass #6.

[okie john]

What kind of groups are you getting with your USP 45? It's a standard USP, right?


Okie John

[okie john]

Delete: Double post.

[GJM]

What kind of groups are you getting with your USP 45? It's a standard USP, right?


Okie John

Probably haven't shot enough groups to answer the question to your satisfaction. Five shot groups on a 3x5 at 25 yards with ball and the Super ammo, when I was zeroing, which was sufficient for my purposes, and I didn't fiddle more.

[okie john]

Probably haven't shot enough groups to answer the question to your satisfaction. Five shot groups on a 3x5 at 25 yards with ball and the Super ammo, when I was zeroing, which was sufficient for my purposes, and I didn't fiddle more.

That's close enough.

Thanks,


Okie John

[JTQ]

GJM,

Since you have both this thread on the USP 45 and also the Beretta 92 love thread, would it be possible for you to wrap a measuring tape from the grip, around the trigger and back around the grip, in double action mode, to compare the grip/trigger reach dimensions of these two guns?

[GJM]

GJM,

Since you have both this thread on the USP 45 and also the Beretta 92 love thread, would it be possible for you to wrap a measuring tape from the grip, around the trigger and back around the grip, in double action mode, to compare the grip/trigger reach dimensions of these two guns?

I am working with just a piece of string, but I show 6.0 for the Brig Tac with the provided grips and 6 1/3 for the USP. I would trust the relative difference more than absolute measurement. (Under 6 for P2000 as a comp)

[JTQ]

Thanks.

[GJM]

We have multiple HK threads going, so I will put this info all here, rather than try to distribute to this, the USP Okie John and P2000 thread.

1) I got some Wolff 12 pound hammer springs in. I believe Gray uses a 12 pound spring in their carry trigger work, although I am not sure whether Wolff or HK. Everything I have read says the 12 pound springs are reliable as to ignition. The spring made a night and day difference to my P2000 DA/SA 9 and .40. Think the difference between a regular Beretta 92 trigger and with a D spring installed. I also put one in a USP 9 Tactical (more on that later), and it improved the DA. I elected to leave my two USP .45 pistols stock for now, as they are my AK field guns.

2) Another forum member did some leg work on the USP and accuracy. Here is the cliff notes version on the .45, and I assume it applies across the 9 and .40 pistols as well. The USP .45 is a 2 inch or better at 25 yards pistol, and extremely reliable. The Tactical models, with the O ring, are more accurate yet. The Expert has a fitted barrel, longer slide, and is a click up from the Tactical in accuracy. The Elite also has a fitted barrel, and similar accuracy as the Expert but a longer slide and, thus, sight radius. The Elite and Expert are high end custom 1911 level accurate. The Mark 23 is also crazy accurate and reliable. HK has some info on their web site as to the Mark 23 accuracy testing, and the groups are amazing. They also shot some tens of thousands of rounds of hot ammo through them with no spring changes or maintenance, all without issue. Think JM will make an AIWB for the Mark 23? :)

3) I got a USP 9 Tactical with the Metro tritium adjustable sights. It comes with the match trigger, which primarily offers improvement in the SA trigger, and mine has a darn good trigger. The Metro sights seem fine, with some black Sharpie applied to the rear white dots. HK must have been in a hurry installing the sights, as the adjustable Metro base is well left in the rear dovetail and right in the front dovetail. Bet this one shoots left as is! The 9 (and .40) is somewhat smaller than the .45 USP in girth.

4) Another forum member and I have had an ongoing conversation on .45 Super ammo. No evidence that the Buffalo Bore 230 FMJ-FP bullet is anything but a .45 cap bullet driven to higher velocity. No idea what that means for penetrating a bear skull. Need to shoot some stuff and see how the bullet does. The Underwood penetrator all copper load is hideously expensive but looks interesting. It is also available in other calibers like 9, .40, and regular .45 acp.

[BCL]

Good run down GJM. I use the 12lb Wolff hammer spring in my P30L(s) and USPs. I haven't had a light strike yet in about 2000 rounds of shooting between them.

I'm a huge fan of the USP, if HK had designed the original USP mag release to be the same size as the HK45C one, it would be damn near the perfect pistol for me. The match trigger should come stock on the USPs.

[okie john]

I'm more than willing to consolidate threads if the mods want to close my USP thread.


Okie John

[JHC]

Lehigh sells that penetrator ammo in addition to Underwood FWIW.

Garrett has added .45 LC loads to their line up of hard cast penetration oriented loadings; offering versions that are S&W/Colt safe and heavier loadings only for Redhawks etc. He is revolver oriented but maybe he could find his way to the ACP and Super one of these days.

His milder +P Colt load for all Rugers/Colts/S&W .45 LC guns throws a 265 grain hard cast flat point at around 1000 fps depending on the barrel length. It is not a SWC design; I don't see why it wouldn't adapt to the Super at least.

[GJM]

I'm more than willing to consolidate threads if the mods want to close my USP thread.


Okie John

I am good either way.


Lehigh sells that penetrator ammo in addition to Underwood FWIW.

Garrett has added .45 LC loads to their line up of hard cast penetration oriented loadings; offering versions that are S&W/Colt safe and heavier loadings only for Redhawks etc. He is revolver oriented but maybe he could find his way to the ACP and Super one of these days.

His milder +P Colt load for all Rugers/Colts/S&W .45 LC guns throws a 265 grain hard cast flat point at around 1000 fps depending on the barrel length. It is not a SWC design; I don't see why it wouldn't adapt to the Super at least.

I am considering getting a Jarvis barrel fitted to one .45 USP, and working up a hand loaded 250 +/- hard cast at 1,050.

[SLG]

I am good either way.



I am considering getting a Jarvis barrel fitted to one .45 USP, and working up a hand loaded 250 +/- hard cast at 1,050.

I forgot to tell you that HK told me that some hardcast lead would be fine to shoot through the usp. They suggested shooting a mag of ball through afterwards to knock out some of the remaining lead.

[GJM]

I forgot to tell you that HK told me that some hardcast lead would be fine to shoot through the usp. They suggested shooting a mag of ball through afterwards to knock out some of the remaining lead.

That is good to know, in terms of opening up the various commercially available, lead Super loads.

Given my aversion to cleaning guns, I wonder if a conventionally rifled Jarvis fitted barrel would be better for shooting a steady diet of hard cast? I could easily see getting a lead .45 acp load for practice.

[SLG]

That would probably make more sense.

[okie john]

I am considering getting a Jarvis barrel fitted to one .45 USP, and working up a hand loaded 250 +/- hard cast at 1,050.

Cast bullets shoot better in my USP 45 than jacketed do, at least so far. I also had good luck shooting cast in an OEM G17 barrel. The key is to use an oversized slug—in the G17 that was 0.358” instead of 0.356”. Lots of people size cast 45 slugs anywhere from 0.451” to 0.455”, so I’d go that route first. I’d start with a moderate charge of Unique and a 250-grain 0.451” bullet. Increase bullet diameter until any leading stops, then start to increase the charge until you get the velocity you want. Older loading manuals, especially anything from Lyman or the NRA, have 250-, 255-, and 260-grain cast bullet loads for the 45 ACP and 45 Auto Rim. Beware Speer #8, though—many of their loads are at least +P.


I forgot to tell you that HK told me that some hardcast lead would be fine to shoot through the usp. They suggested shooting a mag of ball through afterwards to knock out some of the remaining lead.

Shooting a mag of ball to clean up the lead can be problematic. It can raise pressures if the fouling is heavy. Even if its not, then it will smear what’s there into a very thin layer that can be more difficult to remove. To remove fouling, wrap a piece of a Chore Boy http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=8293302&SRCCODE=WEBGOOPA&scid=scplp709855&gclid=COmMid6F9MYCFUlqfgod4Q0L4g around a bore brush. A few passes should get all of it, especially with polygonal rifling.


Okie John

[Dagga Boy]

That is good to know, in terms of opening up the various commercially available, lead Super loads.

Given my aversion to cleaning guns, I wonder if a conventionally rifled Jarvis fitted barrel would be better for shooting a steady diet of hard cast? I could easily see getting a lead .45 acp load for practice.

I had an extended threaded Jarvis Barrel for my stainless USP that I used for a lot of years. I worked great for shooting the reloads my agency was buying for a lot of years. My SWAT guys only shot factory ammo when I was running the program, but I shot a ton of reloads while burning up the surplus practice ammo I budgeted for our patrol people that they didn't use.

[LSP972]

Shooting a mag of ball to clean up the lead can be problematic. It can raise pressures if the fouling is heavy.

This... big time. I cringe every time I hear this bit of "lore" repeated. If you think about it for a minute, its absolute nonsense.

The Chore-Boy trick works, but a BoreSnake is even easier; again, assuming light fouling. This is why hard-cast is so important in polygonal bores. But since we're talking about shooting rhino-rollers here, potential leading is definitely going to be something to watch closely for.

A conventionally-rifled barrel would remove that issue almost entirely.

.

[GJM]

Interestingly, Jarvis appears to make barrels for the USP 9 and .45, but not the .40. That is too bad, as a USP .40 with a Jarvis barrel would seem to be a good .40 hard cast launcher.


http://www.jarvis-custom.com/shop/heckler-koch-pistol-barrel/

[LSP552]

This... big time. I cringe every time I hear this bit of "lore" repeated. If you think about it for a minute, its absolute nonsense.

The Chore-Boy trick works, but a BoreSnake is even easier; again, assuming light fouling. This is why hard-cast is so important in polygonal bores. But since we're talking about shooting rhino-rollers here, potential leading is definitely going to be something to watch closely for.

A conventionally-rifled barrel would remove that issue almost entirely.

.

Hey, it worked for leaning wadcutter crud out of .357 mags....:D

[okie john]

A conventionally-rifled barrel would remove that issue almost entirely.

So would gas checks.


Okie John

[GJM]

I have been real low on .45 Super ammo, but just got more in, and decided to confirm zero at 25 yards with my stock USP .45 and Buffalo Bore 230 FMJ-FP .45 Super ammo. I shot fairly quickly, and this is typical of what I had remembered about how this gun/ammo combo shoots.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image.jpg1_zpsurwr3rug.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image.jpg1_zpsurwr3rug.jpg.html)

Okie John, I have a USP 9 Tactical with Mepro adjustable sights. I had to adjust the rear sight all the way down to get it hitting proper POI with AE 147 ball. Adjustable sights might be good for you, considering your issues with POI. The Meps are carry-able

[okie john]

Okie John, I have a USP 9 Tactical with Mepro adjustable sights. I had to adjust the rear sight all the way down to get it hitting proper POI with AE 147 ball. Adjustable sights might be good for you, considering your issues with POI. The Meps are carry-able

Working with Nyeti to address that right now. Details to follow after the package arrives.


Okie John

[LtDave]

Saw this ammo today. Nosler bonded tipped 230 gr @ 1050 fps. It may not even be +P:

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/nosler-defense-pistol-ammunition-39873-acp-bonded-tipped-230-1050-fps-rdbx-p-136600.html

[coldcase1984]

Interestingly, Jarvis appears to make barrels for the USP 9 and .45, but not the .40. That is too bad, as a USP .40 with a Jarvis barrel would seem to be a good .40 hard cast launcher.


http://www.jarvis-custom.com/shop/heckler-koch-pistol-barrel/

Shouldn't have hit the link! Saw they do have one for USP 40 Compact but not USP .45 Compact. I'd be in for a threaded .45C barrel...

[GJM]

Just back from the range. After JHC's gentle pestering, I decided I bet shoot the USP with .45 Super on the timer.

Since I was wearing my USP with Super ammo to the range, in a JM appendix holster under a t shirt, I decided I would start cold with a FAST. Caveats are, I haven't shot a FAST for a long time, and I generally live fire OWB. I also decided I better shoot it clean, by way of my approach. I was using Buffalo Bore 230 FMJ-FP which is 230 grains at about 1,120fps or 258 power factor ammo.

I shot it clean in 7.33 (2.08, .65, 3.06, .53, .50, .51). I have it on video, although I have minimal web connectivity now, and will have to try to upload it back in town. For comparison, later on in they session, I shot some 7 yard draws to the six inch circle, and with .45 ACP ammo. My splits were in the .25-.30 range, so significantly faster, although that was about 195 power factor ammo.

I then transitioned to my CZ for my regular practice session. All that recent HK heavy trigger practice definitely helped, because my first four shots to the one inch square at 7 yards went into one hole. I then shot a FAST with the CZ. No cover garment, so just open carry, but the point is to compare splits only. The FAST with the CZ Shadow was 3.66 (1.18, .23, 1.62, .20, .22, .21) with one body just out high. I have this on vide, too.

At the end, I shot the USP at 25 yards with Super ammo and 230 ball. The Super is perfect POI for my sights, but the 230 ACP ball hits 2 to 2.5 inches right at 25 yards. I also shot some arrays that I had been shooting with my CZ, and the USP with regular ACP ammo does surprisingly well, especially with transitions between targets which negates the CZ's ability to split so well on multiple shots to the same target.

[SLG]

Conversations with GJM convinced me to try a USP for my field uses. I called a buddy at HK and after listening to his explanation of the various models we decided that either the tactical or the expert would be best for my use. HK sent me one of each to try out, and I have been shooting them this past week. In case you don't know, as I certainly didn't, the expert and elite models have hand fitted barrels, and are not considered to be quite as reliable as the base model or the tactical (which is functionally the same as the base USP). Having said that, they are still extremely reliable guns. Mine has not bobbled once, with a variety of ammo, for what little that is worth.

As you might expect, the expert shot slightly better for me, consistently producing groups about a .5" smaller than the tactical. All groups were shot offhand, and so a rest might show a greater or lesser difference. This is inline with what HK told me to expect.

As for the "shoot the lead out of it with a mag of jacketed." I grew up with the same understanding as you, and actually wasn't sure if I should post that. However, I have no first hand experience in the matter, and the guy at HK who told me that is a long time, high level gun industry icon, who also has a ton of experience shooting lead through revolvers. So, I'm hard pressed to dismiss it out of hand. I do think that he was referring to shooting a small amount of lead, not a regular, high volume thing. Don't know if that would matter, and don't know if the HK rifling would affect things better than traditional rifling. Might be worth looking into.

[john c]

SLG;

What caliber are your USPs? The reason I ask is that the .45 USP Experts appear to be unavailable, and go for a significant premium on Gunbroker. I'd be extremely happy if HK has brought more into the country. Also, I read that the USP Tactical triggers are supposed to be "match" triggers, like the USP Expert. How do these triggers stack up against one another? I ask because I'm looking hard at a USP .45, and don't know if the Expert is worth the extra $$, or if I should settle on a Tactical.

[SLG]

Both my test guns are 45acp. Both guns have match trigger from the factory, both feel pretty identical to me. I like the expert, but I also like the idea of suppressing the tactical when I want to.

[GJM]

Before heading out flying this morning, since my USP was loaded with Super, I grabbed my USP 9 Tactical, and dry fired for a minute. I noticed that the pistol, which has a match trigger installed by HK, was intermittently following, when I would work the slide. I will need to call HK. This is concerning, given my use for the USP, and makes me feel like I would want to stick with the regular trigger, and not install the OEM match trigger in my USP 45 pistols. To SLG's point about theoretical reliability of the USP vs the Expert/Elite with a fitted barrel, I am also thinking theoretical greater reliability trumps theoretical greater accuracy for my use. Out flying, when landed on a ridge top,and out of the aircraft, I had a brown bear within 150 yards of me, which would be a bad time to have a less than absolutely reliable pistol.

[SLG]

Just got back from a marathon group shooting/ammo testing session with my WC 10mm and the USP Expert. Shooting a hundred rds of full power 10 and 45 acp +p and Super, for groups, is probably no the best way to wring the most accuracy. Oh well.

The short of it is, the USP didn't like any of the super I shot through it. One rd wouldn't even close all the way, and the other had too many malfunctions for me to consider it. It also wasn't stellar in the accuracy department. It also seemd to be straining the gun a bit, but I'm probably just over sensitive to that.

One rd stood out in both calibers (10 and 45). Lehigh Defense's Xtreme Penetrator was reliable (for the very limited number of rds I tested today), and was among the more accurate. I don't really know how it would do on game, but I imagine it will penetrate very well. More testing is needed.

[GJM]

1) I am hoping SLG provides more detail, both from this session, and his next ones. As I understand it, he had problems with Underwood hard cast .45 Super. He didn't shoot any Buffalo Bore 230 FMJ-FP, which is what I have been shooting and have yet to have a stoppage with in two USP pistols. Very interesting his experience with the Lehigh penetrator load, and I hope to try that in .45, .45 Super and .40.

2) The video from the last session was pretty crappy, so I shot some FAST runs today with .45 ACP and .45 Super ammo through the USP.

First, this is the .45 ACP run, 6.33 (1.98, .64, 2.68, .38, .34, .31):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jttVrNz8ES0


Then, to compare how the gun moves, here is a run with .45 Super. I was pushing it a little, and had one head out and two "overlay" shots on the body, (1.79, .66, .2.85, .52, .41, .46):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm3xVZOcpRE

Then just for comparison purposes, this is my one CZ FAST run yesterday. It was open carry, and one head out in 3.66 as I recall:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdSjsPUpIPg

[SLG]

GJM,

Not trying to be difficult...

As one of the guys allowed to test people on the FAST, I would point out that reporting scores that way is not as useful for the rest of us as it could be.

I would have reported the 45acp score as 6.33, clean. 45S as 8 - something, with one head out. CZ as 8.66, with one head out and without concealment. That method allows people to more easily and accurately compare the performance from run to run, as well as showing the correct score.

As I told you before, your recoil control with that 45 S is impressive.

[GJM]

SLG, I appreciate your sensitivity to what a FAST is, given your history with it.

I was using FAST as shorthand for 2 to the head, 4 to the body, since it is pretty understood. What I was doing was not a FAST, or intended to be, and I should probably call it the 2x4 drill in the future. (As an aside, I believe a FAST is when you stand up in a TLG or Ernest Langdon class, in front of a group of your peers, and perform, on demand, right then. Video just doesn't cut it in my book.)

What I was trying to do, was compare and contrast how the guns cycle, and I think the video and raw split times do that best. Adding four seconds, or whatever is the current penalty for lack of concealment, obscures the real differences. And to make actual scores meaningful, you would need to shoot a bunch of runs with each gun and load, none of which I was interested in.

I think the video nicely illustrates some things I have believed. There is a reason I game a CZ, but here in AK carry a HK USP with Super ammo. The CZ is way easier to shoot and manipulate. Just comparing 9mm to .45, at least between the CZ and USP, you better really believe in the big bullet theory to want to carry .45, given how much easier 9 is to shoot in those two platforms. Then when you go from .45 to .45 Super, it gets even harder to shoot at similar speeds.

[SLG]

GJM,

I get that, but raw splits dont mean much without hits on a target. Kind of like bill drills and el prez, they have to be shot clean to count. Maybe a bill drill with the 2 or 3 guns would be ultimately more informative, in regards to splits and controllability?

[GJM]

My #2 USP 45 just came back from HK, where they installed a match trigger and Trijicon HD sights. I literally took it out of the box, shot two magazines of .45 acp ball at two inch dots, and went back to 25 yards to shoot it with Buffalo Bore .45 Super 230 FMJ-FP ammo. I fired five rounds from 25, walked up and looked, then fired a second five round group from 25 yards. I had one flyer, that I felt, but this is the result of two five shot groups at 25:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpss9gmq36l.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpss9gmq36l.jpg.html)

This is way good enough for bear defense. Still yet to have a stoppage with either USP 45, with any of the .45 acp or .45 Super ammo I have tried. The match trigger greatly improves the trigger feel of the USP, and if it proves reliable, I will have it and HD sights put on #1.

[Luke]

That is some insane shooting. Have you just mastered the wobble zone and time the trigger just right or are you very steady?

[GJM]

That is some insane shooting. Have you just mastered the wobble zone and time the trigger just right or are you very steady?

I haven't mastered anything, this whole program is still in process/progress. I have not mastered the wobble zone, and I am not particularly steady. I don't even see especially well.

I put the sights more or less where I think they should be, and then just press the trigger without worrying about exact sight/target alignment. After I start the press, I don't stop until the shot breaks. If I do stop, I try to start the press over, because stopping/staging/timing does nothing good for me.

I am quite particular about my windage zero with fixed sights, and I plan on making several small adjustments with a new pistol or sights, to get POI right for my eyes, technique and ammo. For example, both USP #1 and #2 shoot my Super load POA/POI in windage and both shoot 230 Winchester ball about two inches right at 25 yards. This #2 USP required no adjustment and I consider that very unusual.

I have pressed the HK DA triggers enough lately, that I think I have a small strain in my trigger finger. I may have to shoot my CZ more to rest my finger.

[Dave Williams]

Local police supply store has turn in USP .45s for $495 quite tempting.

[coldcase1984]

Where's that store, Dave?

[Dave Williams]

Where's that store, Dave?

Atwells in Painesville Ohio.

[GJM]

To want a USP, I think you would really want to value very high round count durability, or the .45 Super capability, as many other .45 pistols have better ergonomics and shoot ability. As a reliable, stock .45 Super launcher, that also runs reliably with regular .acp, I know of nothing else that compares.

[john c]

To want a USP, I think you would really want to value very high round count durability, or the .45 Super capability, as many other .45 pistols have better ergonomics and shoot ability. As a reliable, stock .45 Super launcher, that also runs reliably with regular .acp, I know of nothing else that compares.

GJM;

Based on your comment above, would you recommend the HK45 over the USP? My understanding is that the HK45 is also spec'd for .45 Super out of the box.

I've shot the FS USP 45 a couple of times, and have not been impressed. I've personally come a long way as a shooter since then, and this thread has gotten my attention, as well as Nyeti's comments about LEM. A buddy of mine just gave me 3 FS USP .45 mags, and I took it as a sign that the gods want me to get a pistol to go with them. Would you recommend a USP or HK45, knowing what you know now about the platform? Or should I just skip it, and find a different .45 super launcher?

Thanks,

-John

[john c]

Local police supply store has turn in USP .45s for $495 quite tempting.

Dave;

How's the condition? Are they typical turn-ins? Better? Worse?

Thanks,

-John

[Dave Williams]

I
Dave;

How's the condition? Are they typical turn-ins? Better? Worse?

Thanks,

-John

They looked better than usual police turn in.

[SLG]

GJM;

Based on your comment above, would you recommend the HK45 over the USP? My understanding is that the HK45 is also spec'd for .45 Super out of the box.

I've shot the FS USP 45 a couple of times, and have not been impressed. I've personally come a long way as a shooter since then, and this thread has gotten my attention, as well as Nyeti's comments about LEM. A buddy of mine just gave me 3 FS USP .45 mags, and I took it as a sign that the gods want me to get a pistol to go with them. Would you recommend a USP or HK45, knowing what you know now about the platform? Or should I just skip it, and find a different .45 super launcher?

Thanks,

-John

Not GJM.

HK does not rate the HK45 for Super. They never tested it. Inside word is that it would probably do just fine, but that is conjecture.

[GJM]

What SLG said. Only caveat being that the USP has a dual recoil system that works with light and heavy loads (the HK45 does not have this same system). The match trigger that HK just installed in my USP 45 is marvelous -- way better than any I have felt on any HK45.

If I primarily wanted a .45, the HK45 has advantages. If your main interest in .45 Super, the USP has advantages.

[john c]

I must have been mistaken about the HK45. My understanding is that the HK45 has the same recoil spring assembly as the USPc 45, a spring and nylon buffer. The USPc is rated for .45 super, but it looks like the HK45 is not.

[BCL]

There was a "break my HK45" thread on HKPRO several years ago where Greg Bell shot some .45 Super rounds through his HK45. I can't recall how many he shot, but I remember there being a video and the gun didn't blow up...

[LSP972]

My understanding is that the HK45 has the same recoil spring assembly as the USPc 45, a spring and nylon buffer..


Its actually a delrin buffer, but yes, the HK45/HK45C system is the same as the USPc/P2000/P30. Dunno about "being rated" for .45 Super, but I suspect you could shoot a fair amount of those without any issue.

IMO, the big advantage of the HK45 is better ergos, and its a bit smaller: the USPf .45 is a honking BIG pistol. It also holds two more beans, so... advantages and disadvantages to each, as GJM stated.

.

[okie john]

IMO, the big advantage of the HK45 is better ergos, and its a bit smaller: the USPf .45 is a honking BIG pistol. It also holds two more beans, so... advantages and disadvantages to each, as GJM stated.

Funny thing is, the USP 45 feels bigger than it actually is. The first few times I picked mine up, I remember thinking of the Colt Walker. But if you put one on a table next to a G17, they're almost exactly the same length and height. The USP is a little bit thicker if you count the levers and it sits really high in your hand, which I think contributes to the feeling of it being big. I think a G21 is much more awkward.


Okie John

[LSP972]

I think a G21 is much more awkward.


Okie John

Except for trigger reach, I'll heartily agree with you. I can... just barely... get to the trigger on a big-frame Glock. The USPf .45 requires that I rotate my hand a bit, and therefore just feels "wrong" to me.

.

[Jeep]

Except for trigger reach, I'll heartily agree with you. I can... just barely... get to the trigger on a big-frame Glock. The USPf .45 requires that I rotate my hand a bit, and therefore just feels "wrong" to me.

.

The USP has always seem to me to be a highly accurate, amazingly engineered pistol with pretty lousy ergonomics. Maybe that is because I have smaller hands also, but to me it is a terrific pistol designed to be used by robots.

[LSP972]

The USP has always seem to me to be a highly accurate, amazingly engineered pistol with pretty lousy ergonomics. Maybe that is because I have smaller hands also, but to me it is a terrific pistol designed to be used by robots.

The USPf (full size) pistols are NOT small-hand-friendly; the .45 especially.

The Compacts, OTOH, and the P-series (P2000/P30) are another story.

.

[1slow]

I wear size 10/11 gloves. I have bony large hands. The P30, HK45 are more ergonomic but the front grip corners on a USP45 exactly match where my knuckles bend. Then again the GL21 fits me well too.
I like the USP 45/45 Super.

[SLG]

I have small hands and have no issue with the USP's or the large Glocks. Go figure.

[GJM]

I have small hands and have no issue with the USP's or the large Glocks. Go figure.

You don't need big hands for a USP, just a big attitude. :)

[JHC]

I wear size 10/11 gloves. I have bony large hands. The P30, HK45 are more ergonomic but the front grip corners on a USP45 exactly match where my knuckles bend. Then again the GL21 fits me well too.
I like the USP 45/45 Super.

IMO squarish 2x4 like grips lock into a hard grip better than sensuous curved types and return to "true north" more surely after a reload for example. I think they are more ergonomic in that respect than more modern declared ergo designs.

[SLG]

You don't need big hands for a USP, just a big attitude. :)

As with everything in life:-)

[CCT125US]

IMO squarish 2x4 like grips lock into a hard grip better than sensuous curved types and return to "true north" more surely after a reload for example. I think they are more ergonomic in that respect than more modern declared ergo designs.

That is a concise description. +1

[1slow]

IMO squarish 2x4 like grips lock into a hard grip better than sensuous curved types and return to "true north" more surely after a reload for example. I think they are more ergonomic in that respect than more modern declared ergo designs.

I agree, the corners and flats give a better index of hand vs grip placement.
Shooting control is not the same thing as feels good in the hand in the gun store. I find a related thing with knives and tools. A handle that gives a secure grip wet or dry in an emergency may not be the one you could use all day without blisters.

[GJM]

Robbie Leatham said the exact same thing about rounded versus straighter grips.

[Dagga Boy]

I agree, the corners and flats give a better index of hand vs grip placement.
Shooting control is not the same thing as feels good in the hand in the gun store. I find a related thing with knives and tools. A handle that gives a secure grip wet or dry in an emergency may not be the one you could use all day without blisters.

Outstanding analogy.

[1slow]

Outstanding analogy.

I had you, Strider and the DB in mind when I typed that. I may lose some skin but will not lose my grip on the DB while doing my "Tasmanian Devil with a spike" routine on a vertical log.

[Dagga Boy]

It reminded me of my relatives down in Panama. I was down there and had several Strider knives including a big MT that I would take on my jungle walks. My relatives thought they were horrible due to the handles. They said exactly what you did about blisters. They are used to literally having a machete in their hand all day and working for hours at a time with edged tools. They want a smooth grip that will give no hot spots. Compare that to needing a knife in a crisis like being upside down in a crashed aircraft...you want to be able to anchor the blade even if covered in hydraulic fluid and not lose it for a short burst of energy work, and be able to orient the blade by feel.

I liked the USP's as duty guns. They were easy to hang on to in various conditions and often deployed under stress and in a crisis. I prefer the more "ergonomic" handled HK's for daily carry against skin.

[GJM]

Is there a alternate thumb safety available for the USP that is a skosh larger?

I carry it hammer down, safety off, but my thumb confirms the safety is off during my presentation, and my optimal finger position for DA (first crease) doesn't comfortably allow my thumb to reach the thumb safety without some contorting of my hand.

[LtDave]

I used to carry a USP 45 V2 on duty. It was a good duty gun, but I eventually replaced it with a G21 Gen2. Well, after all this discussion, I thought I should pick up another USP 45. Found a LEM USP 45 on GunBroker that I'm sure was a duty gun at one point due to the wear. It is a '99 vintage with dead night sights. Took it out to the range and tested with a bunch of different loads. It shoots. It shoots real good. 1.25" with Wolf Polyformance 230 FMJ of all things in the x-ring and 1.0" with Geco FMJ, about 1" low. Had to take a little off the top of the front sight to bring the POI up, and also had to center up the rear. Love the LEM on this gun, it's better than the ones on my USPc .40 and USPc .45. I really have to concentrate to shoot groups with those two, this one made it easy. It shoots a bunch of factory JHP and reloads into 1.5" or better at 20 yards. Definitely a keeper.

[BCL]

Is there a alternate thumb safety available for the USP that is a skosh larger?

I carry it hammer down, safety off, but my thumb confirms the safety is off during my presentation, and my optimal finger position for DA (first crease) doesn't comfortably allow my thumb to reach the thumb safety without some contorting of my hand.

I'm unaware of one. From what I can understand and have seen, the size (width of thumb-safety) in descending order goes: USP full size, USPc, HK45/HK45c.

[GJM]

I used to carry a USP 45 V2 on duty. It was a good duty gun, but I eventually replaced it with a G21 Gen2. Well, after all this discussion, I thought I should pick up another USP 45. Found a LEM USP 45 on GunBroker that I'm sure was a duty gun at one point due to the wear. It is a '99 vintage with dead night sights. Took it out to the range and tested with a bunch of different loads. It shoots. It shoots real good. 1.25" with Wolf Polyformance 230 FMJ of all things in the x-ring and 1.0" with Geco FMJ, about 1" low. Had to take a little off the top of the front sight to bring the POI up, and also had to center up the rear. Love the LEM on this gun, it's better than the ones on my USPc .40 and USPc .45. I really have to concentrate to shoot groups with those two, this one made it easy. It shoots a bunch of factory JHP and reloads into 1.5" or better at 20 yards. Definitely a keeper.

Dave, I am glad it turned out well, as I feel partly responsible. Typical of your meticulous group shooting personality to actually go test the thing with different loads!

[LtDave]

Put about 40 different loads thru it over the past two days, including all the factory JHP's and most of the factory ball rounds on hand. Still have a bunch of known good handloads that need testing, but I need to assemble them. Probably another 20 to go.

[GJM]

Put about 40 different loads thru it over the past two days, including all the factory JHP's and most of the factory ball rounds on hand. Still have a bunch of known good handloads that need testing, but I need to assemble them. Probably another 20 to go.

You planning to test any Super loads?

If you kept notes, it would be interesting to see what you found with each of the loads tested.

[LtDave]

Probably no super loads. I keep group size and POI/POA for everything I test. The hottest stuff I've got is HST +P and some Speer 230 TMJFN +P. The HST ran 1.75", the Speer 2.25". POI was about the same and is probably now at POA since I adjusted the sights.

[okie john]

Put about 40 different loads thru it over the past two days, including all the factory JHP's and most of the factory ball rounds on hand. Still have a bunch of known good handloads that need testing, but I need to assemble them. Probably another 20 to go.

Sounds like your USP 45 shoots just like mine.

I'd be interested in knowing what those "known good" handloads are if you don't mind sharing.


Okie John

[LtDave]

Some handloads in .45 ACP that have proved accurate for me in several different pistols:
All with Win LP primers
185 Nosler, Montana Gold, or Zero JHP, 4.3 gr N310 1.200 OAL
200 Bayou/SNS coated SWC 4.5 WST 1.240 OAL
200 Bayou/SNS coated SWC 4.3 Clays 1.240 OAL
200 Bayou/SNS/Masterblaster coated SWC 4.3 N310 1.250 OAL
200 SNS coated SWC 4.3 Red Dot 1.240 OAL
230 Armscor RN or Magtech FMJ SWC 4.8 or 5.1 Solo 1000 1.255 OAL
230 Magnus or Armscor FMJ RN 4.9 Bullseye 1.260 OAL
230 Armscor FMJ RN 4.3 Clays 1.250 OAL
230 Magtech FMJ SWC 5.9 Universal 1.225 OAL

The Magtech bullet has the same profile of an H&G 68. The factory loads with this bullet also shoot well. Most of these loads were found on the net and may be .1 plus or minus from what was originally posted. These are loads that are thrown by my Little Dandy powder measure rotors.

[okie john]

Some handloads in .45 ACP that have proved accurate for me in several different pistols:
All with Win LP primers
185 Nosler, Montana Gold, or Zero JHP, 4.3 gr N310 1.200 OAL
200 Bayou/SNS coated SWC 4.5 WST 1.240 OAL
200 Bayou/SNS coated SWC 4.3 Clays 1.240 OAL
200 Bayou/SNS/Masterblaster coated SWC 4.3 N310 1.250 OAL
200 SNS coated SWC 4.3 Red Dot 1.240 OAL
230 Armscor RN or Magtech FMJ SWC 4.8 or 5.1 Solo 1000 1.255 OAL
230 Magnus or Armscor FMJ RN 4.9 Bullseye 1.260 OAL
230 Armscor FMJ RN 4.3 Clays 1.250 OAL
230 Magtech FMJ SWC 5.9 Universal 1.225 OAL

The Magtech bullet has the same profile of an H&G 68. The factory loads with this bullet also shoot well. Most of these loads were found on the net and may be .1 plus or minus from what was originally posted. These are loads that are thrown by my Little Dandy powder measure rotors.

Thank you, sir.


Okie John

[eyemahm]

Is there a alternate thumb safety available for the USP that is a skosh larger?

I carry it hammer down, safety off, but my thumb confirms the safety is off during my presentation, and my optimal finger position for DA (first crease) doesn't comfortably allow my thumb to reach the thumb safety without some contorting of my hand.

I'm not aware of one, either.

I carry a USP in the same configuration (hammer down, safety off), and none of my other pistols have safeties, so I recently decided to alleviate any concerns about the safety getting accidentally bumped on by removing it (switching out the detent plate to make the safety lever decocker only).

I assume you've considered that solution so am curious what your arguments would be for/against.

[EM_]

I, for one, am really appreciative of this thread and the thought, time, and money GJM has put into this process. Since I moved to bear country this issue has been a concern of mine. I was relying on a Model 29, but kept having the nagging feeling of the revo's disadvantages and was about to jump with both feet into a Glock 20. The USP in .45 super loadings seems like a very good solution.

I'll be looking into one as soon as our move to Bozeman is complete.

[okie john]

I, for one, am really appreciative of this thread and the thought, time, and money GJM has put into this process.

Same here. He asks all the questions that I'd ask, though not exactly as I'd ask them, which saves me a lot of money for T&E. On the other hand, he asks so many new questions that all the money I save gets reallocated to new projects, like finding ways to move to Alaska.


Okie John

[EM_]

I just went with Montana; also known as "Alaska lite".... ;)

[GJM]

After Alaska, Montana is certainly the lower 48 state most like Alaska, both in the geography and attitude of the people living there. I think Bozeman is one of the greatest places to live in Montana and the whole west.

Hiking near town, I frequently see black bears on the west side of the Bridgers. I think the grizzly bears primarily are south of town. Lots of bear spray and handguns observed on local trails.

[EM_]

Agreed...I find out this week if I get the transfer...

Fingers crossed. Sorry for the derail...

[GJM]

Just in from a quick range session with USP .45 #2, recently back from installation of a match trigger and HD sights at HK. A great thing about the USP, is you can practice with regular .acp ammo, and still use it with Super in the field.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image.jpg1_zpsei3ogwat.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image.jpg1_zpsei3ogwat.jpg.html)

The 3x5 was Buffalo Bore 230 FMJ-FP Super at 25 yards, with one called flyer from a rough press. Dot 3 is draws shoot DA then SA from 7 yards, as quickly as I thought I could make the hit. Dot 6 is DA draws from 7 yards with the Super ammo. Disregard the circled shots as they were from verifying zero at 100 with rifles yesterday.

The USP is very "field" accurate, and I have have yet to have a stoppage with any .acp cartridge or the BB 230 Super FMJ-FP (the only Super ammo I have tried). The DA trigger is heavy enough that it takes deliberate effort to fire shot one, which is just fine for myself use.

[john c]

GJM:

How much did the conversion to a match trigger run you? Also, have you considered a LEM setup? Apparently, the combination of a light LEM and match trigger is the best of both worlds. I'm interested in trying one out.

[BCL]

GJM:

How much did the conversion to a match trigger run you? Also, have you considered a LEM setup? Apparently, the combination of a light LEM and match trigger is the best of both worlds. I'm interested in trying one out.

Not GJM, but I've used both triggers (Match and LEM-Hybrid). I much prefer the match trigger as I don't like LEM. That being said, the LEM-Hybrid is by far the best LEM trigger I've ever shot.

I was quoted $60 for labor and $119 for the match trigger kit for HK to install, not counting taxes or return shipping.

I just install them myself, it's not that difficult with the TRS tool and a couple of punches. There are a couple of good videos on YouTube that help.

[GJM]

My experience is HK is often the least expensive for things like a match trigger kit. They just installed three triggers for me for not a lot of money.

Darryl has previously said the hybrid match LEM on the USP is the best OEM LEM trigger that exists. I have been resistant to trying one, as I really like DA/SA triggers. I had something happen this afternoon that may cause me to at least try one. On the way to check the float plane was tied up in the strong wind we are having, we came upon a bull porcupine. Don't like shooting things we don't plan to eat, but we have a "no porky" zone around our cabin, on account of their damage potential to our cabin and our bird dog.

I baled out of the truck after the porky, wearing my USP in a Fricke custom holster that mounts on my Safariland thigh rig. I shot the porky once, from a rear quartering angle, evaluated, and shot again. It sure seemed like the 45 Supper bullets were zipping right through a smallish target, as opposed to expanding like a JHP. I circled around to check on the porky, and put the USP on safe, hammer cocked, with the pistol in my hands. As I approached the porky, he was still alive. I went to put him out of his misery with a brain shot, and as I tried to do that, realized I had the safety on. Fixed that, and took the shot, decocked and holstered. Analysis showed the solid bullets were hardly noticeable, although the brain shot worked as expected.

My plan is to use the safety on the USP, from now forward, only as a decocker. Anyone know whether there is a variant that is decock only? So that is what has me open to trying the LEM in the USP.

[BCL]

My plan is to use the safety on the USP, from now forward, only as a decocker. Anyone know whether there is a variant that is decock only? So that is what has me open to trying the LEM in the USP.

The Variant 3 detent plate is the one you want:

http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/Detent-Plate-For-USP-HK45-HK45C-Variant-3-4-200p1172.htm

Regarding the LEM Match - it's the only one I would consider using. With a 14lb hammer spring (IIRC), I had a 4.5lb pull that was remarkably good. It didn't feel like an LEM trigger at all, which is why I think I liked it. I'll look around for the parts list if you are interested in trying it. Someone on M4C long ago put a parts list together.

[okie john]

The Variant 3 detent plate is the one you want:

http://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/Detent-Plate-For-USP-HK45-HK45C-Variant-3-4-200p1172.htm

Regarding the LEM Match - it's the only one I would consider using. With a 14lb hammer spring (IIRC), I had a 4.5lb pull that was remarkably good. It didn't feel like an LEM trigger at all, which is why I think I liked it. I'll look around for the parts list if you are interested in trying it. Someone on M4C long ago put a parts list together.

HKPro has a ton of info on this stuff. One of the few things they're actually good at doing.


Okie John

[GJM]

Perfect, that variant 3 will fix me right up.

If I go hybrid match LEM, I will just send the USP to HK and let them do it, based on how reasonable they were earlier this month. 4.5 may be lighter than I want for the first trigger pull given how I use this gun. I really don't object to the weight of the DA, just the size and location of the thumb safety lever.

[BCL]

Perfect, that variant 3 will fix me right up.

If I go hybrid match LEM, I will just send the USP to HK and let them do it, based on how reasonable they were earlier this month. 4.5 may be lighter than I want for the first trigger pull given how I use this gun. I really don't object to the weight of the DA, just the size and location of the thumb safety lever.

If you use the LEM hammer spring, it should up the trigger pull to about 5.5lbs or so. This is likely the way that it will come from the factory if HK does it. I was using the factory DA/SA hammer spring when I measured the 4.5lb pull.

[BCL]

HKPro has a ton of info on this stuff. One of the few things they're actually good at doing.


Okie John

That they are. I only mentioned the M4C post because the post had everything organized by part number.

I'm sure HKPro has all of that and more in their reference library section.

[GJM]

This afternoon, my wife and I did ten miles in the Polaris Ranger on a dusty path, to go hike across the tundra to a lake. Brown bear area, and she had her G20, and me the USP #2 and my Benelli. The handguns were in Safariland thigh rigs, and ended up coated with dust, that came up from the Ranger.

I cleaned pistols this evening, and looking at the USP, with its match trigger, I just didn't get a warm feeling about having a set screw controlling over travel on a pistol meant to be abused like the USP. After dinner, I decided to go do some testing of this USP, as it is relatively new to me. Shooting support hand, double action, once it seemed like the trigger was wicked heavy, and preventing the shot. I verified the safety was off, shot some right hand, and then had it happen again support hand. Apparently, the over travel screw was set, so that pressing support hand, kit was intermittently blocking the trigger from firing the pistol. I went inside, considered trying to adjust it, and decided to just remove the over travel "feature." I then fired 75 rounds of Winchester 230 ball .acp and some Buffalo Bore Super to confirm all is well. I can't even say I really notice the trigger being any worse without the over travel stop. Seems if you are that sensitive to a fine trigger, an HK hammer gun is not your choice anyway. I am frankly surprised HK would offer a match trigger with an over travel screw that can come loose and cause the pistol to not fire.

On my #1 USP, I think I am going to replace the OEM sights with HD, since they regulate, and leave the trigger stock. Both pistols will be getting variant 3/4 plates which are now ordered.

[LSP972]

I am frankly surprised HK would offer a match trigger with an over travel screw that can come loose and cause the pistol to not fire.



Because… game gun. See Gold Cup, Power Custom, etc., etc. You won't see anything like that on their service pistols… not from the factory anyway. Cletus, who puts one on his carry gun, doesn't count.

Frankly, I'm surprised that you're surprised.;)

.

[GJM]

The standard and LE model HK USP Tactical come from the factory with the match trigger. Same with the more gamey Expert and Elite.

[BCL]

GJM,

good point about the overtravel stop coming loose. I'll have to see what the trigger feels like with it removed after I get back home. Given that I have no issues with a P2000 trigger, I doubt I'll have any issues.

The real money maker of the match trigger is the nickel plated sear spring (which smooths the DA pull and makes the SA more crisp) and the catch, which shortens the reset. Given that the NPSP is $11 and the catch is not much more than that, I may go that route with any future USPs instead of installing the complete Match trigger kit (provided I can find the match catch for sale separately).

[Chuck Haggard]

I used to own three Match pistols, I don't think I ever saw those in the catalog at any point, but they were for sale obviously. Mine were stupid accurate.


I tried Triton .45 Supers in one of my guns, recoil was brisk, blast was .44magnum level. I had a legacy SureFire 6 volt light on that gun as it was my SWAT pistol at the time, recoil was so pronounced that the battery smashed inside the light and lost contact, temporarily killing the light.

[LSP972]

The standard and LE model HK USP Tactical come from the factory with the match trigger. Same with the more gamey Expert and Elite.

I know. I had a Combat Competition. The "Tactical" is one of those with a threaded barrel, and suppressor sights on some examples. Still "gamey", IMO.

.

[JBP55]

The standard and LE model HK USP Tactical come from the factory with the match trigger. Same with the more gamey Expert and Elite.

Does the match trigger come standard in the HK USP .45 CT?

[GJM]

I actually had an overtravel screw interfere with firing on some pistol enough years ago, that I have forgotten what it was. Think I would have learned better. Matt Mink told me that he removed overtravel screws from his CZ Shadows, as he likes the feel better without, and I noticed nothing different about the USP #2 after removing the overtravel screw, that would warrant compromising reliability.

Not sure what it is about porcupines. My wife and I just got back from flying three hours, out scouting, and when we got to the cabin, our bird dog went ballistic as we got to the front door. Having seen that trick before, we put her inside, looked, and sure enough there was a porky under the front porch. My wife and I spent 30 minutes trying to get it out, and finally I decided we needed to go to plan B. Since I was wearing my USP 45, I grabbed a P2000 .40 with 180 HST, thinking JHP would work better on a smallish target like a porky. I went down pronish, but rolled on my side, got a clear angle, and shot once in the head. That did it, and my wife found the HST bullet. It went through, exited the porky's head, went through a bit of wood under the deck, and was lying on the ground perfectly mushroomed. Not sure what did what, but I will try to post a picture later.

[GJM]

I went down pronish, but rolled on my side, got a clear angle, and shot once in the head. That did it, and my wife found the HST bullet. It went through, exited the porky's head, went through a bit of wood under the deck, and was lying on the ground perfectly mushroomed. Not sure what did what, but I will try to post a picture later.

not sure what it means, but here it is. Perhaps Andrew W can replicate with another porcupine and see if his result agrees with mine.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsmsm1t2an.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsmsm1t2an.jpg.html)

[GJM]

Received variant 3/4 plates from HKParts.net. This switches from DA/SA with a thumb safety and decocker to DA/SA with a decocker but no thumb safety. It was easy to switch out the plates. That is an excellent feature of the USP, USPC and HK45/C, that you can switch most variants easily.

[GJM]

Good weather today, after three days of wind, and planning to head out caribou/brown bear hunting later. Did a quick session with the USP 45. Here are my results, drawing from 6-10 yards. Never more than three shots fired in a string, emphasizing DA than SA. Draw, shoot two to a dot, reload and back to the dot, to make sure I wasn't cheating with my grip.

I won't win any USPSA contest with this pistol, but really, really satisfied as a field pistol and launcher for .45 Super. You may note a slight right deflection on hits. The pistol is zeroed for Super, and the .acp hits right of the Super zero.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image.jpg1_zpsyqmk1uja.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image.jpg1_zpsyqmk1uja.jpg.html)

[GJM]

As soon as my wife got to the range this afternoon, I went back to 100 yards and shot my USP with the Buffalo Bore 230 FMJ-FP Super ammo. Five shots from kneeling. I really think the upper left shot is two, based on close inspection, but I wouldn't swear to it in court.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image.jpg1_zpsty4hsusi.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image.jpg1_zpsty4hsusi.jpg.html)

[LSP552]

Good weather today, after three days of wind, and planning to head out caribou/brown bear hunting later. Did a quick session with the USP 45. Here are my results, drawing from 6-10 yards. Never more than three shots fired in a string, emphasizing DA than SA. Draw, shoot two to a dot, reload and back to the dot, to make sure I wasn't cheating with my grip.

I won't win any USPSA contest with this pistol, but really, really satisfied as a field pistol and launcher for .45 Super. You may note a slight right deflection on hits. The pistol is zeroed for Super, and the .acp hits right of the Super zero.



Beary Good!

[Dagga Boy]

As soon as my wife got to the range this afternoon, I went back to 100 yards and shot my USP with the Buffalo Bore 230 FMJ-FP Super ammo. Five shots from kneeling. I really think the upper left shot is two, based on close inspection, but I wouldn't swear to it in court.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image.jpg1_zpsty4hsusi.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image.jpg1_zpsty4hsusi.jpg.html)

Having seen how well you shoot from kneeling, I am going to give you the two in one hole.

[SLG]

Having seen how well you shoot from kneeling, I am going to give you the two in one hole.

Doesn't sound good to me.

[GJM]

Having seen how well you shoot from kneeling, I am going to give you the two in one hole.

I think there is a California joke, I heard at Gunsite, in there somewhere.

[Robert Mitchum]

This guy did his own trigger job on his USP45.
The Target is 12 rounds at 25 yards Bench Rest.
http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/5310/czcustom063.jpg

"The first thing I "had" to do to my HK USP 45 was trigger work. SA was pretty creepy and heavy. The DA in HK's will never be light, but can be improved.
You do not need to buy the Match Trigger Kit if you are mechanically handy. I reduced the SA sear height in my particular USP .012" and the difference is amazing. Then installed a Wolf reduced power hammer spring, 99% certain it was a 10 #'er to replace the stock 14 #'er. Never gonna' be like a 1911, but it can be excellent nontheless.
The only thing I would say is, disassembly is not for the faint of heart. There is website that shows how to detial strip".

[RONK]

I just recently read this thread and had a few question please?GJM,did you consider a Glock 21 for your choice?Does anyone have any experience with Buffalo Bore 45 ACP 255gr Hard Cast out of semi-autos?Thanks.
RONK

[GJM]

I just recently read this thread and had a few question please?GJM,did you consider a Glock 21 for your choice?Does anyone have any experience with Buffalo Bore 45 ACP 255gr Hard Cast out of semi-autos?Thanks.
RONK

I didn't really consider the 21 because:

1) the USP was ready for super right out of the box, and

2) I am an HK fan boy at heart.

[SLG]

I just recently read this thread and had a few question please?GJM,did you consider a Glock 21 for your choice?Does anyone have any experience with Buffalo Bore 45 ACP 255gr Hard Cast out of semi-autos?Thanks.
RONK

I had some feeding issues with that round and my USP Expert.

[GJM]

I don't have high confidence in wide meplat, hard cast lead cartridges, like the heavy Buffalo Bore or equivalent loads, functioning reliability in service pistols. I will take function first, every day, in this application.

[1slow]

I didn't really consider the 21 because:

1) the USP was ready for super right out of the box, and

2) I am an HK fan boy at heart.

For me GJM got me started on the USP45 path and I like it a lot. With .45 Super it replaces my GL20s.

I could not get GL20s to run with Buffalo Bore 180gr @ 1400fps, even after going to a 22 lb recoil spring. Slide cycled too fast to let rounds feed. I think GJM had similar experiences.

I do not think trying to Make a GL21 into a .45 Super is going to work even as well as the problematic GL20 with BB 10mm.

I carried GL21s for 8+ years and GL30s for 7+ years @ 10,000 rounds a year and am familiar with the pistols.

American Handgunner Tactical Annual 2002 had an article that refers to a USP 45 with 6,000 rounds of ,45 Super through it with no damage.

I have USP 45, USPT 45 Tactical and view them as match accurate combat pistols.

[JonInWA]

I've used Buffalo Bore's 230 gr hollow points as a carry load in my Gen 3 G21 as an all-around defensive cartridge for black bear, mountain lion, and human predators in the Pacific NW. It chambered and shot POA/POI decently enough-with the caveat that I've haven't shot much of it through the G21, just enough to verify functioning and POA/POI.

I plan on carrying this combination in a tactical thigh holster as a back-up (and more practical carry gun, albeit in a more concealable holster) to my Ruger Blackhawk (carried in a chest tanker-style rig) for hunting this fall in the Pacific NW.

Question: Any thoughts/consensus on an HK VP40 as a wilderness carry piece, with appropriate ammunition (and what would be considered "appropriate" against black bear/mountain lion in .40 these days)?

Best, Jon

[GJM]

I've used Buffalo Bore's 230 gr hollow points as a carry load in my Gen 3 G21 as an all-around defensive cartridge for black bear, mountain lion, and human predators in the Pacific NW. It chambered and shot POA/POI decently enough-with the caveat that I've haven't shot much of it through the G21, just enough to verify functioning and POA/POI.

I plan on carrying this combination in a tactical thigh holster as a back-up (and more practical carry gun, albeit in a more concealable holster) to my Ruger Blackhawk (carried in a chest tanker-style rig) for hunting this fall in the Pacific NW.

Question: Any thoughts/consensus on an HK VP40 as a wilderness carry piece, with appropriate ammunition (and what would be considered "appropriate" against black bear/mountain lion in .40 these days)?

Best, Jon

Even though I shoot a Glock better, I would trust an HK VP40, USP or similar HK, far more than any Glock 10/45 in terms of reliability.

[RONK]

Even though I shoot a Glock better, I would trust an HK VP40, USP or similar HK, far more than any Glock 10/45 in terms of reliability.

I was going to ask why you favored the HK USP over the Glock,you just answered it.Thanks all.
RONK

[GJM]

I chrono'd some ammo through my Carry Optics pistol earlier today, and at the same time decided to check velocity on Federal HST 230 grain +P, which is my non animal load, and also on the Buffalo Bore 230 FMJ-FP .45 Super ammo, whichever is my field load.

The HST was 891, 850, 848, 894 fps, for an average velocity of 870, or 200 power factor. I was surprised by the relatively wide spread in velocity, and relatively low average velocity given the USP is certainly a "full size" service pistol, and Federal lists the load as 950 fps at the muzzle.

I then shot the Buffalo Bore 230 FMJ-FP and it was 1070, 1070, 1082, 1071, for an average velocity of 1,071 fps, and power factor of 246. This is the spread in velocity I would have expected in HST ammo, and I was surprised the Buffalo Bore seemed so much more consistent. I am way more comfortable with 1,070 at the muzzle in terms of penetrating a bear or moose skull than 870 fps. Makes me wonder if I should be looking for another .45 acp JHP load besides HST for when I am not carrying FMJ-FP ammo?

[Dave Williams]

Wow I'm shocked by Federal results as well. We tested the standard velocity HST at a gel shoot at my dept and it was the star of the show out of a Glock 21.

How did the recoil/recovery with the Super load compare to the HST?

[GJM]

Wow I'm shocked by Federal results as well. We tested the standard velocity HST at a gel shoot at my dept and it was the star of the show out of a Glock 21.

How did the recoil/recovery with the Super load compare to the HST?

It felt proportionate to the difference in PF.

[GJM]

A friend just sent an email recommending the 220 grain Hornady Critical Duty load as a penetrating biased JHP. Thoughts?

[OlongJohnson]

There's a thread over in Ammo about how accurate the Hornady stuff typically is. Worth trying a box or two.

I really like the USP45F. I'm a big guy with big hands (have had to give up on really nice XXXL motorcycle gloves when they didn't stretch enough in break in), and its size works perfectly for me. Mk23 is for cartoons. The 9/40 frame is great, but the 45 is just a little better.

[Luke]

Olongjohnson has xxxl hands. Am I the only one who finds this funny.

[GJM]

Olongjohnson has xxxl hands. Am I the only one who finds this funny.

Must be a Trump supporter.

I know someone that has small hands and can shoot anything, wonder if with big hands Olong can shoot everything?

[OlongJohnson]

I just thought this was funny.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkwiQmGWK4c

I'd probably have trouble shooting an LCP, just like everybody else.

[1slow]

I was shooting a USPT with .45acp 230gr today. I really like these pistols. How is the LEM on these vs. P30, HK45. Reset, weight etc....

I am tempted to carry them instead of my 9mm P30 LEMs. I would either revert back to my 1911 ways with cocked and locked or go LEM.

Any thoughts ?

[BCL]

You can go LEM hybrid on the USP, which is the best LEM trigger ever.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

[LSP972]

I was shooting a USPT with .45acp 230gr today. I really like these pistols. How is the LEM on these vs. P30, HK45. Reset, weight etc....



Pull "weight" is dependent on which of the three springs- hammer spring, firing pin block spring, trigger return spring- you have installed. All sorts of different variations there.

Reset, OTOH, is the same on the USP/HK45/HK45 Compact… quite a bit less than the current P-series (P2000, P30) pistols.

My wife and I have P30, P2000, USP Compact, and HK45 Compact pistols; multiples of each, all LEMs. The bride is totally into the P30, whereas I prefer the USPc and HK45c. When I first began shooting the P2000/P30s on occasion, I would not let the trigger go out far enough to reset and end up double-clutching the thing… bad juju. The third time I went to Tom Givens' best overall two-day class, I was there mainly to support #1 grandson, so I shot the HK45c on Day One, and decided WTH, go with the Euro Pellet P30 the second day. Didn't choke on it, not once. Hmmm… so, beats me.

Personally, I think you're more concerned with caliber than trigger reset. The USPf (full size) .45 is a BIG pistol, easier for big hands to control; the HK45 full size has the much more ergonomic Spiderman grip and is a bit smaller overall, with better sights. Reset is the same on both. The 9mm and .40 P-series pistols have the longer reset.

Something else… the USP/HK45 guns have a "modular" thing going, allowing no less than nine different trigger action types (the LEM is one, called the V7; the rest are DA/SA/decocker/no decocker/left side/right side/etc.); the P30 and P2000 have only two trigger actions- LEM, or DA/SA with that bizzarely-located decocker button on the rear face of the slide.

It all can be pretty confusing at first, but its really not, once you get a handle on the different variations/different pistols. I'll leave it at that, but if you have any further questions, there are a dozen or so of us on here who have a lot of time on HKs and can help you to decide.

.

.

[GJM]

Had first animal encounter of the season in Alaska this afternoon, on a narrow trail with our bird dog, and I am pleased to report the USP and Buffalo Bore .45 Super works on a porcupine. Gosh that DA trigger seemed heavy after six weeks of shooting a Glock in Carry Optics.

[1slow]

Several years ago I went from 20+ years of carrying Glocks (GL21,30,19,17) to carrying HK P30 LEM V1 9mm. Pre 1990 I carried 1911 .45s mostly.
I have HK45 V1, HK45 LEM, HK45CT, HK P2000SK LEM, HK USP45, HK USPT45, HK USP45 Elite, HK MK23. I also have HK P30, P30L in LEM.

I am not so much concerned with caliber, with proper JHP all service calibers are OK for people I think. For animals I like GJM's USP 45 Super idea if I am not going .44 Mag and up.

I shoot the USPT 45s the best for accuracy, closest thing to a good single action pull carried cocked and locked. HK 45 is also very accurate for me. I probably need to do LEM on 1 USP45 and see if I still shoot it more accurately than the LEM P30. I also shoot the HK45 slightly more accurately than the P30.

I like the capacity of the 9mm P30 and have no complaints about the pistols. My hand size make the USP 45s comfortable to shoot and I like the boxy grip for recoil control. USP 45 vs. HK45 for some reason the thumb safety on the USP feels more convenient than on the HK45

I have gotten to really like the USP 45s. I may be revisiting my childhood with the .45. I need to do some testing with LEM USP 45 and see if it is the USP itself or the good single action on the USPT45. I also need to do the same with the HK45 LEM and a HK45cocked and locked.

All of these pistols are very good, I am just considering options.

[john c]

.

Something else… the USP/HK45 guns have a "modular" thing going, allowing no less than nine different trigger action types (the LEM is one, called the V7; the rest are DA/SA/decocker/no decocker/left side/right side/etc.); the P30 and P2000 have only two trigger actions- LEM, or DA/SA with that bizzarely-located decocker button on the rear face of the slide.

.

.

LSP, thanks for the info. I picked up a USP45 a while back to check out the whole HK thing. I specifically went for the USP for the modularity, not realizing that the HK45 has the same feature.

Is the LEM materially different between the USP45 and the HK45? I have the Elite, with a factory upgraded trigger, if it changes the comparison.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LSP972]

Is the LEM materially different between the USP45 and the HK45?

Nope; the parts are identical. Again, those three springs determine the difference in the pull weight; that's up to you to determine.

What IS radically different is the grip design/shape. The HK45 full size is much nicer, IMO, in addition to being a bit smaller; and don't forget there are two backstrap sizes that are easy to exchange.

.

[GJM]

When I was looking for a better penetrating JHP load for the USP, Ron Avery recommended the Hornady Critical Duty 220 +P load. I finally got a chance to shoot it in the USP today. Here are ten shots, one DA and nine SA at 25 yards. It hits the same POI as most of my .acp loads. In this pistol, my Buffalo Bore 230 FMJ FP Super loads hit 1.5 inches left at 25 yards, but this doesn't trouble me too much for my use as a bear gun.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpstopdcmqn.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpstopdcmqn.jpeg.html)

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpscxmfcvd7.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpscxmfcvd7.jpeg.html)

PS: I should also say, that I shot these off hand, pretty quickly, so I have no doubt that benched or shot at bullseye speed, the load is darn accurate.

[JHC]

That Critical Duty .45 load has posted some sick pure precision. Tam has some chrono data on some that had single digit variances. It's a hot smoker too.

[GJM]

I shot five rounds of the Critical Duty 220+P through #2 USP this afternoon. Offhand, 25 yards, one DA and four SA shots. Gun is identical to #1, variant 3, HD sights. This load shoots and feels great in the USP.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps91qc6xls.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps91qc6xls.jpeg.html)

[GJM]

Then I shot a few more pistols, contemplating how they might work with the Lehigh Xtreme penetrator loads.

First up was a variant 3 USP Compact 45. Recoil felt quite stout compared to the full size USP. Shooting Critical Duty through the Compact felt like Super ammo through the FS USP. Between the shootability difference and considering the Compact isn't GTG with Super ammo, I don't see any use for my purposes.

Next I shot a LEM P2000 .40. It was OK, but I much preferred the FS USP. Next a Gen 4 22, which I enjoyed shooting more than the P2000 or USP C. Finished up with a G4 19, confirming zero on some TCAP sights, and of course that is the easiest pistol to shoot of everything I shot today.,

[Chuck Haggard]

The Critical Duty bullets are semi pointed, I'd think about something with a larger hollow point and an edge that was more "grabby", like maybe the 200gr +P Gold Dot, 230gr GD, etc.

[GJM]

The Critical Duty bullets are semi pointed, I'd think about something with a larger hollow point and an edge that was more "grabby", like maybe the 200gr +P Gold Dot, 230gr GD, etc.

I understood the C Duty load to be one of the better penetrating JHP .45 loads?

[Chuck Haggard]

I understood the C Duty load to be one of the better penetrating JHP .45 loads?

It is, I'm speaking to the Jim Cirillo noted type stuff about pistol bullets glancing off of skulls....

[newyork]

Have you noticed a difference in performance between the USP45 and USP Tactical?

[JHC]

I understood the C Duty load to be one of the better penetrating JHP .45 loads?

The windshield tests of them on Hornady's site are what interested me for the "HULK SMASH" kind of role you are looking for them to fill. http://www.hornady.com/store/45-Auto-P-220-gr-Crit-Duty/

.357 Sig CD went even deeper. ;)

[JHC]

I shot five rounds of the Critical Duty 220+P through #2 USP this afternoon. Offhand, 25 yards, one DA and four SA shots. Gun is identical to #1, variant 3, HD sights. This load shoots and feels great in the USP.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps91qc6xls.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zps91qc6xls.jpeg.html)

What's that? Under 2"? With a DA shot. Nice.

[DacoRoman]

What's that? Under 2"? With a DA shot. Nice.

Wow! I love it!

[Dave Williams]

Local police supply store Atwells in Painesvill, OH had a police turn in USP .45 for $450 this morning. They also had a police turn in USP 45 compact for $495 which is the cheapest I've ever seen one of those. Quite tempting! Just an FYI

[GJM]

Local police supply store Atwells in Painesvill, OH had a police turn in USP .45 for $450 this morning. They also had a police turn in USP 45 compact for $495 which is the cheapest I've ever seen one of those. Quite tempting! Just an FYI

Dave, I am going to block you, if you keep this up. :)

[Chuck Haggard]

You fuckers are going to make me buy another USP45 if you keep this shit up. Years after I sold off my triple set of Match .45s.....

[BCL]

You fuckers are going to make me buy another USP45 if you keep this shit up. Years after I sold off my triple set of Match .45s.....

They are trying to set up a group buy for match 9 and 45s on the pro site right now. Not for anywhere near the $500 range though.

[Chuck Haggard]

They are trying to set up a group buy for match 9 and 45s on the pro site right now. Not for anywhere near the $500 range though.

I'm just thinking about a standard model now, although my Matchs were stupid accurate.

[11B10]

Must be a Trump supporter.

I know someone that has small hands and can shoot anything, wonder if with big hands Olong can shoot everything?





LOL

[LSP972]

I'm just thinking about a standard model now, although my Matchs were stupid accurate.

Hey, we're getting older. The "standard" pistols are plenty accurate; if you want to stay with Euro Pellet, score yourself a 9mm USP Compact and see how great it is to carry/shoot.

If you want to go back to man-bullets, the HK45C has an O-ring barrel that is every bit as accurate as your former match pistols. Either pistol with a flat magazine floorplate carries concealed just as good as a Grock; and with the LEM, much nicer to shoot, etc.

.

[Chuck Haggard]

Hey, we're getting older. The "standard" pistols are plenty accurate; if you want to stay with Euro Pellet, score yourself a 9mm USP Compact and see how great it is to carry/shoot.

If you want to go back to man-bullets, the HK45C has an O-ring barrel that is every bit as accurate as your former match pistols. Either pistol with a flat magazine floorplate carries concealed just as good as a Grock; and with the LEM, much nicer to shoot, etc.

.

I'm thinking more along the lines of I haven't owned a .45 in years, thinking about getting one, George's line of thinking makes sense to me ref a heavy duty .45acp......

My Match guns handled Super ammo just fine, even if recoil was stout enough to wreck the batteries in the gun I had a Sure-Fire light mounted on.

[GJM]

I'm thinking more along the lines of I haven't owned a .45 in years, thinking about getting one, George's line of thinking makes sense to me ref a heavy duty .45acp......

My Match guns handled Super ammo just fine, even if recoil was stout enough to wreck the batteries in the gun I had a Sure-Fire light mounted on.

Not sure if he mentioned it earlier in this thread, but SLG told me the regular USP was reputed to be a bit more reliable than the longer .45 USP models with fitted barrels. Probably inconsequential increments of difference in reliability, given how reliable the USP is.

Saw this on another forum, reference USP reliability:

--------------------

So recently some of you have followed my USP45 FTF thread. While my pistol is back to functioning flawlessly I wanted to create a separate thread about the conversation I had with the man who worked on my firearm.

Side note-
This man works at HK everyday so what he says counts. This is not some hearsay or something I heard from someone somewhere... Enjoy!

So after talking with him about why my handgun was experiencing FTF's (mag spring) I asked him "Which of the HK handguns do you see in for issues or repairs the least?"

His response: "The USP45 is a gun that we pretty rarely see, we very seldom have one come in. The HK45 is rare too... Most of the 45 caliber guns will power through any operator error such as limpwristing. The .40's power through most of it as well. The guns we see in here probably the most are the USP9's and P30L's in 9mm... Those guns with 115gr ammo are pretty unforgiving when it comes to limpwristing. The heavier loads 124 and 147 forgive a little more. If you're new to polymer and you want to completely eliminate limpwristing then buy one of those. It will teach a new shooter to lock their wrist right away. Mechanically all of our guns are sound. Usually if something breaks its due to a botched trigger job or someone trying to replace something their selves. We have special tools from HK to replace any part. We know instantly when someone tried to take needle nose pliers and do something themselves. They leave tiny scratches in areas we know where to look. Other than that just properly maintain your firearm and change the springs when recommended. The springs are the only thing that really wear out over time and we replace them all for $2-$5 per spring."

Now for the best thing he ever could have told me

"If you wanna hear something about how tough these guns are. We had a USP45 come in a few months ago. It was sent to us by Federal Ammunition Company. They wanted us to replace anything needed and evaluate the weapon. To be honest all of the parts on the gun looked original except we could tell they had put newer recoil springs in it. The gun was date coded in the 90's and looked like it had been shot A LOT. So me and the other guys got curious an gave Federal a call asking what the round count was... We gave the lady the serial # and a few keyboard strokes later she says

Are you guys sitting down?

297,000+

Then he says "yeah I can't remember the last 3 digits but I'll never forget the first three"

[LSP972]

I'm thinking more along the lines of I haven't owned a .45 in years, thinking about getting one, George's line of thinking makes sense to me ref a heavy duty .45acp......

My Match guns handled Super ammo just fine...

Okay... but why do you need it? Unless you're bear hunting or whatever (in Kansas???), 230gr+P HST is pretty much the best .45 cartridge to use for "defensive" purposes against two-legged targets; and the HK45C easily handles +P .45 ACP ammunition.

Of course, if you don't mind packing the USPf .45, then whatever. But that one is quite a bit larger and heavier than the HK45C.

Just sayin'...

.

[GJM]

Okay... but why do you need it?

.

15 yard penalty flag for the appeal to "what purpose."

Face it, 99.66 percent of us would be best served by two Glock 19 pistols, one kydex OWB and one kydex IWB holster, and a truck full of 9mm ammo. However, this is Pistol-Forum, and we just like different guns.

[LSP972]

"If you wanna hear something about how tough these guns are. We had a USP45 come in a few months ago. It was sent to us by Federal Ammunition Company. They wanted us to replace anything needed and evaluate the weapon. To be honest all of the parts on the gun looked original except we could tell they had put newer recoil springs in it. The gun was date coded in the 90's and looked like it had been shot A LOT. So me and the other guys got curious an gave Federal a call asking what the round count was... We gave the lady the serial # and a few keyboard strokes later she says

Are you guys sitting down?

297,000+



Right. Along with how I have seen Glocks hold up to lots of shooting/cleaning/neglect/etc., for MANY years, I think all the other thread posting about how the plastic/polymer will go bad over time is... questionable.

I still have my original G19, that I bought in 1992. It has well over 30K rounds through it, was carried for many years, is beat-up, been cleaned with everything from Hoppe's #9 to frigging brake cleaner, yet still works fine, etc., etc.

My #1 HK45C has over 15K rounds through it, has also been neglected at times, been cleaned with brake cleaner or whatever was handy. I replaced all the springs at about 12K rounds, but kept them for spares; they still work. I suspect you shoot as much or more with a few of these polymer-framed pistols as well... and they hold up fine, right?

.

[LSP972]

15 yard penalty flag for the appeal to "what purpose."

Face it, 99.66 percent of us would be best served by two Glock 19 pistols, one kydex OWB and one kydex IWB holster, and a truck full of 9mm ammo. However, this is Pistol-Forum, and we just like different guns.

Well, I believe your using the USPf with .45 Super ammunition while out in the semi-arctic is a bit better than a Euro Pellet Glock; just like dealing with a street thug or two with a .45 HST is usually better. In my opinion. ;)

.

[GJM]

Well, I believe your using the USPf with .45 Super ammunition while out in the semi-arctic is a bit better than a Euro Pellet Glock; just like dealing with a street thug or two with a .45 HST is usually better. In my opinion. ;)

.

Hey, I am the outlier, represented not by the 99.66 percent -- what Darryl would call a special snowflake. Speaking of which, that stinker owes me a call back, and I will continue to troll him in various threads, until he calls. Wanted to tell him that I broke down and bought not just one but two USP pistols, with the second being a USP 45 LEM.

[Chuck Haggard]

15 yard penalty flag for the appeal to "what purpose."

Face it, 99.66 percent of us would be best served by three Glock 19 pistols, one kydex OWB and one kydex IWB holster, and a truck full of 9mm ammo. However, this is Pistol-Forum, and we just like different guns.

FIFY

[Chuck Haggard]

Okay... but why do you need it? Unless you're bear hunting or whatever (in Kansas???), 230gr+P HST is pretty much the best .45 cartridge to use for "defensive" purposes against two-legged targets; and the HK45C easily handles +P .45 ACP ammunition.

Of course, if you don't mind packing the USPf .45, then whatever. But that one is quite a bit larger and heavier than the HK45C.

Just sayin'...

.

I like to hike, a lot. Looking forward to having more time to go different places. Not super interested in the Super anymore, +P is fine with me.

And because, reasons.....

[HCM]

Okay... but why do you need it? Unless you're bear hunting or whatever (in Kansas???),
.

Missouri Border trash.....;)

You'll need a pair of them.

[Dagga Boy]

A couple of things. As one of the first agencies to adopt the USP45F and having a very long exposure to them, I have found that they were remarkably reliable even when horribly abused. They also handle the hotter .45 loads without issue. I am planning on dedicating my stainless USP45 to the same role GJM is using.....although I may use it as an excuse for a MK23.
In regards to reliability over the longer barrel models....probably due to the o-ringed and fitted barrels on the longer guns. Like anything, you want more accuracy, you are going to pay somewhere. With that said, the Match and Expert guns are disturbingly accurate....like every bit as accurate as your top of the food chain custom 1911 with a fitted match barrel accurate.

For many years I felt Glock dominated the 9mm arena for reliability and as a service pistol, while HK was the best .45. I think the newer HK 9's are right up there now as well. I still do not believe anyone does a better .45, and if I went back to a uniform cop job tomorrow, I would likely take a HK45 as my primary pistol.

[Chuck Haggard]

Missouri Border trash.....;)

You'll need a pair of them.

The Glock 9mms are fine if we start getting border ruffians or bushwhackers again....

[coldcase1984]

This place is all about group think. That said, this is a pretty good group to be in for that reason. It's also Unber-Enabling to a Gun Hussy like myself.

My only HK is a USP 45C, that is damn near 20-years-old. Got it for my brother with the discount after doing MP5 Trigger Groups/USP Armorer School in '96 or '97. He decided he has too many guns in too many calibers a year or so back and just gave me the Compact.

I do an OD-BUG qual for every handgun I possess, and noticed the Compact shot at least twice as tight as my G21SF. Have carried it a few times in a DeSantis belt-slide, but this thread has me thinking several things.

1. Need more expensive mags; only gots three.

2. Must get Critical Duty .45s as our agency just went with CDs for our Glock .40s, and it appears to be quite accurate.

3. Need an AIWB ASAP because I like that much better on weekends.

4. Need to find my Armorer's Book so I can experiment with LEM, and replace springs (probably not needed as I doubt this pistol has been fired more than 200 times).

5. Need a threaded barrel because I think this would be a groovy pistol to hush.

6. Probably need more HKs!

:cool::mad:;)

[GJM]

I have a JM George for my USPC 45 that works great, although perhaps I am biased.

[GJM]

This reminds me that I have some suppressors enroute, thanks to LL and Hansohn Brothers. What would be the right suppressor for a USP45 T, are they fun to shoot suppressed, and what suppressor is appropriate for that?

[Dagga Boy]

This reminds me that I have some suppressors enroute, thanks to LL and Hansohn Brothers. What would be the right suppressor for a USP45 T, are they fun to shoot suppressed, and what suppressor is appropriate for that?

I have shot both the Mk.23 with the issued KAC cans and USP45T's with a couple different cans. It is one of the best suppressor platforms out there as they were sort of designed from the ground up around being suppressed.

[GJM]

I have shot both the Mk.23 with the issued KAC cans and USP45T's with a couple different cans. It is one of the best suppressor platforms out there as they were sort of designed from the ground up around being suppressed.

how would this work?

https://silencerco.com/silencers/hybrid/

[OlongJohnson]

I have shot both the Mk.23 with the issued KAC cans and USP45T's with a couple different cans. It is one of the best suppressor platforms out there as they were sort of designed from the ground up around being suppressed.

Best deal going for a threaded barrel for the USP45F.

http://www.midwestgunworks.com/page/mgwi/prod/hk-usp-barrels/217702

Should work fine, but if you want the full program, you'll need the recoil assembly, too. And probably sights if you go round.

[GJM]

Best deal going for a threaded barrel for the USP45F.

http://www.midwestgunworks.com/page/mgwi/prod/hk-usp-barrels/217702

Should work fine, but if you want the full program, you'll need the recoil assembly, too. And probably sights if you go round.

sounds like the economical route would be to just buy a USP45T. :)

[coldcase1984]

I immediately checked, OJ, but they don't have any threaded .45 Compact barrels; what a great price!

GJM, I'm looking hard at getting a Hybrid because of the ability to use it on my pistols and Guide Gun, which I'm fixing to SBR and thread to get rid of those stinking ports! I like the idea of 405 grainers at 1,050 FPS...and Pffft!

[JHC]

This place is all about group think.

That is not accurate. I have been assimilated to the Borg Collective some 15+ years. HKs have no . . . minimal . . . only some pull at me.

[OlongJohnson]

sounds like the economical route would be to just buy a USP45T. :)

Barrel plus recoil assembly plus sights...might as well buy another gun!

[Dagga Boy]

Thanks enablers....bought a barrel. Just FYI, typically a bit steep on shipping. Ends up being 170 and change. I ll let you guys know when I get it if it comes with o rings.

[GJM]

USP full size 40 arrived. I am surprised how much smaller it is in several dimensions than the USP 45 full size.

I set it up with a variant 3 plate to start, although I am considering LEM for it. Have a 12 pound Wolff hammer spring in, which makes for a decent, but heavy, DA trigger. I can't dry fire this or my USP 45 too much or it strains my finger at the first joint of my trigger finger. Not kidding.

Look forward to shooting it against my USP 45.

[JDB]

I set it up with a variant 3 plate to start, although I am considering LEM for it. Have a 12 pound Wolff hammer spring in, which makes for a decent, but heavy, DA trigger. I can't dry fire this or my USP 45 too much or it strains my finger at the first joint of my trigger finger. Not kidding.

Look forward to shooting it against my USP 45.

Whew! I thought I was the only one. I set out to master DA/SA last year, so purchased a second P30, this one V3 (other a LEM). 2 weeks later, my finger was sore. It stayed that way for 6 months...even though I dropped the DA pull weight down around 10 lbs.

I still like DA/SA, but figure for me, LEM is the better way to go long term. DA/SA takes consistent, regular practice for me to maintain proficiency with...but then my finger gets sore.
The V3 P30 got converted to a V0...DA/SA with a decocker to shoot LEM.

[GJM]

Look at the difference in size between a USP full size .40 and .45 magazine.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpssyifhq0b.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpssyifhq0b.jpeg.html)

[okie john]

Look at the difference in size between a USP full size .40 and .45 magazine.

The difference in width makes an impression, too. Picking up a USP 45 magazine after handling a G17 or VP9 mag feels like you're grabbing a file cabinet.


Okie John

[GJM]

The difference in width makes an impression, too. Picking up a USP 45 magazine after handling a G17 or VP9 mag feels like you're grabbing a file cabinet.


Okie John

you got that right:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsyyje2lme.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpsyyje2lme.jpeg.html)

[Dagga Boy]

Got my barrel. On a good note, it came with an O ring. Now.....trigger decisions.

[JTQ]

What is the reputation of the polymer mags used in the full size 9 & 40 USP's? I'd expect a quality product from HK, but they didn't see fit to use those mags in any other versions of there guns which makes me wonder about them.

[OlongJohnson]

Rock solid. The translucent ones for use with the jet funnel are not recommended as fully mechanically bomb-proof by HK, but the rest are golden.

[GJM]

I just told Darryl that I want the V14 trigger. That is LEM first press, SA all shots after, and auto decocking.

[okie john]

What is the reputation of the polymer mags used in the full size 9 & 40 USP's? I'd expect a quality product from HK, but they didn't see fit to use those mags in any other versions of there guns which makes me wonder about them.

They went to steel mags for the USPc for size reasons and never went back. That said, they sell boatloads of USPs on military contracts all over the world, so I wouldn't sweat them too much. HK does a lot of things right, especially mags.


Okie John

[Bergeron]

Thanks to all who are contributing to this thread, it is informational, educational and entertaining.

A couple of the earlier comments caught my eye. My first centerfire handgun was a USPf that I strongly appreciated.

Is it possible to have a USP V1 (safety plus decocker) that would decock into LEM? That would be very interesting.

[GJM]

This evening, I got to shoot two new to me HK pistols, for the first time.

First, I shot a lightly used USP 45 with a LEM trigger. When I first took it out of the shipping container, the trigger seemed very heavy. I switched hammer springs for a Wolff 12 pound and that made the LEM trigger very acceptable. I didn't get a chance to shoot .45 Super through it, but I did shoot 60 rounds of Speer 230 TMJ. Not surprisingly, it was accurate and reliable. I did note that with the decocker/safety missing on the LEM model, I need to be careful with my thumb to get slide lock back. Sights were regulated like my two other USP 45 pistols -- drive the dot. I plan to install HD sights next week, when they arrive.

Next, I shot my new USP DA/SA .40 full size. It also functioned properly and was accurate. Sights were regulated closer to tip of the front sight (I was using Ranger 180 FMJ and 180 HST). Subjectively, I thought the .40 USP full size recoiled more than the .45 full size. I believe a contributing factor, besides the different recoil characteristics of .40 compared to .45, is the grip is quite a bit shorter on the USP .40. This made me have to work harder to hang onto the pistol, and if not attentive, my grip occasionally separated in recoil. As I finished up with the .40, I shot my Glock 23 with the same ammo, and I was surprised that the Glock 23 seemed to have significantly less recoil than the USP.

I have worked hard to manage the DA/SA USP trigger, but to be candid, the DA trigger is heavy enough that it kind of sucks. I am going to give this USP 45 LEM a good workout, to see if it works better for me in the field pistol role.

[BCL]

Without knowing what area of the country your various HKs are, do you feel that the USP40 recoils more than your P2000 .40?

[GJM]

Without knowing what area of the country your various HKs are, do you feel that the USP40 recoils more than your P2000 .40?


Good question. I robbed the 12 pound Wolff out of a P2000.40, although they are back in town now. Need to shoot the P2000 and USP side by side. I do think these will help:


https://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/-USP-Full-Size-9mm-40-Cal-Floor-Plate-Extended-265p2478.htm


I am also considering the hybrid match LEM for the .40, and besides that trigger, no safety lever should allow me to get more meat on the grip.

[Luke]

Hkpro says no match hybrid for P2000, how are you doing it? I'm sure there's a way

[GJM]

Hkpro says no match hybrid for P2000, how are you doing it? I'm sure there's a way

Different pistol -- match hybrid for USP FS .40.

[okie john]

Sights were regulated like my two other USP 45 pistols -- drive the dot. I plan to install HD sights next week, when they arrive.

Will be very interested to hear about POI with these.


Okie John

[BCL]

Different pistol -- match hybrid for USP FS .40.

This reminds me - I need to call HK and see if I can by the match catch without buying an entire match trigger kit. If so, the USP40 that I'm going to convert to LEM will get the match hybrid as well.

[GJM]

I did some more shooting this morning with the DA/SA USP .40 and LEM USP .45.

For pure technical shooting, I still think the HK USP SA trigger is better than the LEM. However the cost of that SA is a truly lousy DA trigger, some more administrative complexity, and the presence of a safety/decocking lever. For my use as a woods gun, today I am now leaning towards LEM as it turns the USP into essentially a high cap, lighter weight DA revolver, or long travel Glock, depending upon your perspective.

[LSP552]

If you are doing the .40 cal thing, why not the P226? Just wondering, kinda thinking about picking up a 226 in .40 just for hard cast reloads as a woods gun.

[BCL]

I did some more shooting this morning with the DA/SA USP .40 and LEM USP .45.

For pure technical shooting, I still think the HK USP SA trigger is better than the LEM. However the cost of that SA is a truly lousy DA trigger, some more administrative complexity, and the presence of a safety/decocking lever. For my use as a woods gun, today I am now leaning towards LEM as it turns the USP into essentially a high cap, lighter weight DA revolver, or long travel Glock, depending upon your perspective.

I did some messing around with my USP40 today and installed an LEM kit. With the old TRS (I think it was the match one), Wolff 12lb hammer spring and nickel plated sear spring, the trigger was super nice, but only averaged 4lb 5oz, which is a little on the light side.

So, instead of doing the easy job of installing the factory hammer spring, I decided to install the heavier TRS...which took about an hour, even with the HK TRS tool, since I go full potato every now and then. Once I got it all back together, I measured the trigger pull at an average of 5lb 5oz. I'm glad I went the TRS route with the 12lb hammer spring, since the trigger has a nice rolling break with no perceptible wall.

Had I gone the other route, it would have been about the same weight, but it would have been a really light take up with a wall at the end, which is harder for me to shoot well. Hopefully I'll be able to take it out next weekend and see how it shoots. Dry firing at home, I am able to row through the entire travel of the trigger at almost full speed without the sights moving, so I'm optimistic about the change.

[GJM]

If you are doing the .40 cal thing, why not the P226? Just wondering, kinda thinking about picking up a 226 in .40 just for hard cast reloads as a woods gun.

I haven't shot enough hard cast through my 226 and 229 .40 pistols to be confident in their function. I really like the Sig P series pistols. The HK USP is appealing because it is lighter, launches .45 Super without modification, and I think it is more impervious to getting dunked and generally abused. Here are some .226 .40 pics from a few winters ago.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/sig1_zpsd4cf5b9b.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/sig1_zpsd4cf5b9b.jpg.html)

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/sig2_zps700efb1d.jpg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/sig2_zps700efb1d.jpg.html)


I did some messing around with my USP40 today and installed an LEM kit. With the old TRS (I think it was the match one), Wolff 12lb hammer spring and nickel plated sear spring, the trigger was super nice, but only averaged 4lb 5oz, which is a little on the light side.

So, instead of doing the easy job of installing the factory hammer spring, I decided to install the heavier TRS...which took about an hour, even with the HK TRS tool, since I go full potato every now and then. Once I got it all back together, I measured the trigger pull at an average of 5lb 5oz. I'm glad I went the TRS route with the 12lb hammer spring, since the trigger has a nice rolling break with no perceptible wall.

Had I gone the other route, it would have been about the same weight, but it would have been a really light take up with a wall at the end, which is harder for me to shoot well. Hopefully I'll be able to take it out next weekend and see how it shoots. Dry firing at home, I am able to row through the entire travel of the trigger at almost full speed without the sights moving, so I'm optimistic about the change.

Keep us posted how this works out. I plan to send my USP .40 and one DA/SA USP 45 to HK next week for LEM. Think I should request the match LEM hybrid or something else?

[BCL]

I haven't shot enough hard cast through my 226 and 229 .40 pistols to be confident in their function. I really like the Sig P series pistols. Here are some .226 .40 pics from a few winters ago.

Keep us posted how this works out. I plan to send my USP .40 and one DA/SA USP 45 to HK next week for LEM. Think I should request the match LEM hybrid or something else?

With all of that snow in the rear sight, it seems like it would be difficult to shoot accurately.

I would go match hybrid LEM, I've had it in USPs before and it was quite excellent...for LEM.

[GJM]

With all of that snow in the rear sight, it seems like it would be difficult to shoot accurately.

I would go match hybrid LEM, I've had it in USPs before and it was quite excellent...for LEM.

Note laser grips! :)

[BCL]

Note laser grips! :)

Fair enough! That is one definite benefit of the Sig P series pistols compared to anything HK.

[LSP552]

I haven't shot enough hard cast through my 226 and 229 .40 pistols to be confident in their function. I really like the Sig P series pistols. The HK USP is appealing because it is lighter, launches .45 Super without modification, and I think it is more impervious to getting dunked and generally abused. Here are some .226 .40 pics from a few winters ago.

It's not the same, but I have shot a lot of hard cast in 9mm through 226s back in the past without issue. No doupt the .45 Super would be better than the .40, and the HK probably requires less care if it gets dunked.

I was just thinking the comparison in .40 might not show that big a difference.

[GJM]

Just in from shooting the USP 45 LEM out in the rain and wind. Box of Speer 230 TMJ shot briskly from 7-25 yards. Not going to win a competition, but probably just fine for my use of a field pistol.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpsl7p3gck1.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpsl7p3gck1.jpeg.html)

[JHC]

I'm guessing that Lawman ACP load with the 230 gr flat point would penetrate pretty well. A +p "Highway Master" version would be pretty nice

[GJM]

I'm guessing that Lawman ACP load with the 230 gr flat point would penetrate pretty well. A +p "Highway Master" version would be pretty nice

We need to get someone to do some penetration testing with that load and see how the TMJ constructions holds together.

[GJM]

So, I called HK today and spoke to customer service, to get an RMA for my two USP pistols getting the hybrid LEM match trigger. As the call started, I said "I have been discussing the best LEM set-up with Darryl Bolke." Complete silence, so I repeated myself. Guy says "I don't believe I know Darryl Bolke." I was stunned. I considered hanging up and trying to get a more clued in CS guy, but I already had given my name. I muddled through the process, but I am frankly worried HK CS may have gone in the toilet again.

[JHC]

We need to get someone to do some penetration testing with that load and see how the TMJ constructions holds together.

I should take the advice offered here and go to a local Mex market and order a few whole pig heads. The biggest they can get. ;)

[JTQ]

For the USP .40 lover's, Top Gun Supply $599 (seems like deja vu, but couldn't find a previous post on this) http://www.topgunsupply.com/h-k-usp-.40-da-sa-standard-sights.html?ct=t(6_22_2016)&mc_cid=04cd4b232a&mc_eid=a6b3a0d9f8

[LSP552]

For the USP .40 lover's, Top Gun Supply $599 (seems like deja vu, but couldn't find a previous post on this) http://www.topgunsupply.com/h-k-usp-.40-da-sa-standard-sights.html?ct=t(6_22_2016)&mc_cid=04cd4b232a&mc_eid=a6b3a0d9f8

I saw that. I'd buy one if it was in .45 just to channel my inner GJM.

[GJM]

It is bad enough when your friends troll you, but now even my wife is in on it, judging by the shirt she just got me:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpsjazcoefc.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpsjazcoefc.jpeg.html)

Do you think anyone would take it seriously, if I got the same shirt for YVK, but substituted "Tanfoglio" for HK?

[BCL]

It is bad enough when your friends troll you, but now even my wife is in on it, judging by the shirt she just got me:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpsjazcoefc.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpsjazcoefc.jpeg.html)

Do you think anyone would take it seriously, if I got the same shirt for YVK, but substituted "Tanfoglio" for HK?

I'd put something on there like "there is no substitute for reliability."

[taadski]

It is bad enough when your friends troll you, but now even my wife is in on it, judging by the shirt she just got me:

Do you think anyone would take it seriously, if I got the same shirt for YVK, but substituted "Tanfoglio" for HK?


Your wife loves Alaska and HK in particular because she knows that every time you switch back to the LEM, she starts spanking you on all your daily drills. :p If she loved you, she'd buy you one of these:


http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo324/taadski/Mobile%20Uploads/FullSizeRender_zpsfa4ji4cj.jpg


Although, admittedly, the HK one goes with your yoga pants better. ;)

[LOKNLOD]

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo324/taadski/Mobile%20Uploads/FullSizeRender_zpsfa4ji4cj.jpg



Makes sense, it's harder to fix a malf when you're all stressed out.

"Stress inoculation: it's not a bug, it's a feature!"

[GJM]

Now back to the regularly scheduled HK programming -- I recently bought a like new USP 45, as it came with an additional OEM threaded barrel and Mepro tritium adjustable sights.

https://www.hkparts.net/shop/pc/USP-Tactical-Night-Sight-Set-Fully-Adjustable-200p1721.htm

Just shot the pistol, and was pleased that when regulated for tip of the front sight at 25 yards, they were nice and low. They are also relatively edge free and fit in my various USP holsters (Blade Tech, George, Fricke). For a fastidious person, like Okie John, who wants a perfect zero for hunting or shooting precision, I think these sights are an obvious choice.