HK USP 45 field pistol

[KneeShot]

3 main objectives of test/comparison. 1-Verify function w/ BB 45 Super 230gn FMJ-FN, 2-Compare different LEM springs, 3-Feel out the USP45FS LEM handling "mechanics" of recoil recovery and trigger prep/press.

USP Purchased a few years ago brand new. Maybe 100 rounds through it. This week - Ordered the Universal LEM Kit from HK web shop, installed myself...well my wife helped push the hammer axle through as I lined up the hammer, cocking piece and hammer rebound spring. I gave in and asked for help after repeatedly hitting myself in the eye with the small pin and spring that the trigger bar presses down on. You tube was HUGE.

Spring Combo Comparisons:
1. Light TRS / Heavy LEM HS
2. Light TRS / Light HS (blue)
3. Heavy TRS / Light HS (blue) "TGS"?
4. Heavy TRS / Heavy LEM HS

Skills Test, repeated for each spring combination. Used 3 CSAT TPI standards modifying Drill 3. All conducted at 7yds. Target used was a standard IPSC/USPSA w/ rectangle A zone.
Drills 1 & 2 used NATO 230gn Ball. Drill 3 used the BB 45 Super. All drills were perfromed from the CSAT ready position w/ elbows touching ribs and muzzle slightly elevated.
Total Ammo Count was 64 NATO and 100 BB 45 Super.

Drill 1 - Repeated x 6 - Press out, 1 hit / 1 target. CSAT standard is 1sec, my last G17 run was .73 cold.
Drill 2 - Repeated x 5 - Press out, 2 hit / 1 target. CSAT TPI standard is 1.5sec, my last G17 run was 1.49 cold.
Drill 3 - Repeated x 5 - 5 hits to body. (modified) CSAT TPI standard is 5 to body and 1 to head in 3sec, my last G17 run was 2.90 cold.

Mulligan Math averaging and scoring;
-Dropped the slowest avg score. Drill 1 avg 5/6, Drill 2 avg 4/5 and Drill 3 avg 4/5
-Out of 164 rounds, 7 of them counted as out of the A-Zone, a few barely and the rest less than an inch, all left or low.
-Drills 2 and 3 only scored and averaged the split(s), omiiting the 1st shot. The press out/1st shot results revealed on Drill 1.

Results:

Light TRS / Heavy LEM HS
.95 - Drill 1
.62 - Drill 2
.56 - Drill 3

Light TRS / Light HS (blue)
.94 - Drill 1
.59 - Drill 2
.50 - Drill 3

Heavy TRS / Light HS (blue)
.94 - Drill 1
.46 - Drill 2
.81 - Drill 3

Heavy TRS / Heavy LEM HS
.95 - Drill 1
.51 - Drill 2
.53 - Drill 3


Drill 1 fastest time was .87 w/Heavy TRS/Light HS
Drill 2 fastest time was 1.35 (.88, .47) w/ Heavy TRS/Light HS
Drill 3 fastest time was 2.72 w/ Light TRS/Light HS

Conclusion -
LEM USP 45 FS w/ BB .45 Super will work for my intended purpose of an Alaska Field Pistol (supplements the Ruger 44mag SRH). For that purpose based on my mulligan scoring and averaging - I believe that any of the spring combo's will work as there was not to great of a disparity inbetween performance and split times. One variable that definitely became a testing factor was that the slide stop notched a hole in the base of my support thumb/palm crease. Another variable was that the second box of 50 BB Super rounds felt alot "heftier" imcomparison to the 1st box, which may have been amplified by the broken skin on my support hand. The second box of BB and broken skin started with the Heavy TRS so I'm not 100% sure it got a fair shake out. BB boxes of 50 had different lot numbers and labeling.
If I wanted to repeat the test I would use standard .45 ACP for every drill and grind down that damn slide stop.

I did like the pull characteristics of the Heavy TRS/Light HS but the numbers point me to the Light LEM.

Moving forward I will have the Triji HD's installed and most likely use the Light LEM combo and possibly order the parts fot the LEM/Match Hybrid.........also curious about the DA/SA Match set up w/ decocker only.

How light has anyone gotten the DA/SA Match set up? I do have a LTT Elite and many years behind a B92 :)

Hopefully this virus lifestyle dissapates and the BJJ gym opens backup so Iam not spending time and money on HK!

Jeremy

[deputyG23]

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Just picked this HK45 up from a co-worker.
Appears to be unfired by the buyer.
This would make a nice “field pistol” here in the Virginia woods.
Looking forward to range time hopefully this weekend with GI type ball reloads and will snag a case of Ranger T when Atlantic Tactical has another sale...

[Salamander]

Just an excuse to post a pretty picture:

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USP 45 near the summit of Black Lassic Mountain on Monday/Memorial Day.

[entropy]

A bit of archeology here....

GJM, are you still running this for field use?

I spent a few months trying to become “one with the red dot” I had mounted on my USP. No luck. I finally ditched it and went back to the factory fixed sights. I’ve run it that way since basically last summer. Looking at giving Dawson a call and getting set up with some FO for my aging eyeballs.

I’ve been very happy with USP. Like it’s USPc counterparts, it has simply run and run without a single bobble. I mounted a Safariland paddle on the Gideon for vehicle use (it sits higher and is comfortable for long drives when I want something more substantial than a snub, yet don’t want the unattended security issues of a long gun). Field use I’m still running the Gideon with the QLS fork or the Safariland with the hood on a Stormrider belt. Very robust setup.

[GJM]

A bit of archeology here....

GJM, are you still running this for field use?

I spent a few months trying to become “one with the red dot” I had mounted on my USP. No luck. I finally ditched it and went back to the factory fixed sights. I’ve run it that way since basically last summer. Looking at giving Dawson a call and getting set up with some FO for my aging eyeballs.

I’ve been very happy with USP. Like it’s USPc counterparts, it has simply run and run without a single bobble. I mounted a Safariland paddle on the Gideon for vehicle use (it sits higher and is comfortable for long drives when I want something more substantial than a snub, yet don’t want the unattended security issues of a long gun). Field use I’m still running the Gideon with the QLS fork or the Safariland with the hood on a Stormrider belt. Very robust setup.

When in Alaska, I have been using the USP FS 45 or HK45C with Underwood Lehigh Super penetrator loads. In lower 48, been carrying a 9mm more with Underwood Lehigh.

[ECVMatt]

Just an excuse to post a pretty picture: USP 45 near the summit of Black Lassic Mountain on Monday/Memorial Day.

Salamander, what sights are you running on that one?

Thanks,

Matt

[entropy]

GJM:

Appreciate the reply.

[fatdog]

When in Alaska, I have been using the USP FS 45 or HK45C with Underwood Lehigh Super penetrator loads. In lower 48, been carrying a 9mm more with Underwood Lehigh.

GJM, I am taking this as "what it takes to punch a big bruin's noggin" and the relative size, skull density, etc. of predators in AK vs the lower 48?

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

[JHC]

GJM, I am taking this as "what it takes to punch a big bruin's noggin" and the relative size, skull density, etc. of predators in AK vs the lower 48?

Thanks for your thoughts on this.

A hard 9 would be fine for both; I just can't get GJM to field test it in AK. ;)

[Salamander]

Salamander, what sights are you running on that one?

Thanks,

Matt

Tall Meprolights off the HK website... pretty sure they're the "high profile adjustable target sights" that are standard on the USP Tactical. They're the tritium version of the tall black target sights on my USP Elite, and I really like those for accuracy so decided to give these a try. So far no issues holding zero after up to several days off trail in the backcountry. At this writing they're apparently even in stock.

https://us.hkwebshop.com/hkstorefront/hk/en/Handgun-Parts/Sights/USP-Full-Size-Meprolight-Tritum-ADJ-sights/p/701101

[Forte Smitten Wesson]

I just got through reading this entire thread from beginning to end (don't worry, it took me over a week to do so) and decided to join the forum and take part in the discussion.

I've wanted an H&K USP45 Elite for a few years now, not because I need one for Wilderness Carry nor because intend to takeup Competition Shooting, but merely because I wanted one and that's all the reason any free man needs to own a firearm, so having finally found myself with enough money to purchase one, I took the plunge. Surprisingly, in spite of the arbitrary insanity that is pandemic pricing on firearms, I actually managed to find a good deal on a brand new USP45 Elite at just over $1000 BNiB.

In addition to my appreciation for the rugged reliability of the USP platform, I also appreciate the aesthetics of the USP45 Elite, which strikes me as a modern take on the aesthetic design of the Walther PP with the way that the slide tapers off towards the end.
Furthermore, although I currently have no intention of taking a hike in Grizzly country, the utility of being able to fire .45 Super sans modifications was a selling point to me as well, simply because I enjoy shooting powerful handguns, and should I ever find myself taking a hike deep into the woods yet can't carry a Shotgun with Brenneke slugs, it's nice knowing that I have something lightweight yet powerful enough to get the job done should I need to fend off a Bear or Bigfoot. :D

Curiously, it appears that H&K has revised the USP Operator's Manual to omit any mention of overpressure loads, now simply making the vague, nondescriptive statement that the USP can safely fire any high quality factory loaded ammunition. No references to +P or +P+ loads are mentioned in the Operator's Manual of my CB (2021) Date Coded USP45 Elite, although I presume that this change was made merely for the sake of legal liability in the instance in which someone actually manages to damage the USP or themselves by firing extreme hot handloads.

I would post some pics of my USP45 Elite, but being new to this forum, I haven't quite discovered how to upload/share images just yet, and the interface is just different enough from other forums I'm familiar with that it isn't obvious to me how to proceed. Just as well, my USP is just a standard Elite model without any internal or external modifications, so just about any old pic of a USP45 Elite would suffice.

[entropy]

Welcome. Appreciate the comments. Yep, pics not the most intuitive but easy once you figure it out.

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[Forte Smitten Wesson]

Thanks, it turned out the issue was that my account hadn't been approved yet at the time, so the option to upload pics wasn't present.

Anyway, here's my USP45 Elite...

[GJM]

Heading around grizzly bears the next few days, so I dragged an HK45C out to the range for some refam. Awesome pistol, but I shoot a dot equipped mid size like the G45/320 Compact/M&P so much better, that one would really need to believe in .45 to carry it. I plan to bring a 9mm with a dot and Lehigh Penetrator ammo along, and leave the 45C at home.

[Maca]

I shot my Glock 45 with a dot side by side with my HK 45c with trijicon FO sights, and the performance difference is significant.

Everything is faster and easier with the Glock. No flyers, no drama, less effort.

Love the 45c... but back in the safe it goes.

[03RN]

Heading around grizzly bears the next few days, so I dragged an HK45C out to the range for some refam. Awesome pistol, but I shoot a dot equipped mid size like the G45/320 Compact/M&P so much better, that one would really need to believe in .45 to carry it. I plan to bring a 9mm with a dot and Lehigh Penetrator ammo along, and leave the 45C at home.

I've had 9mm stop in a deers shoulder.

Yes, I believe in the .45
73643

[GJM]

I've had 9mm stop in a deers shoulder.

Yes, I believe in the .45
73643

One difference is I assume you were hunting, and I am not. Hunting game and bears is different than defending against animals. My plan is to fire one warning shot, followed by one shot anywhere into the body. At that point, if the bear is still coming, with my handguns I need to penetrate the brain to reliably stop an attack. I am loaded with 1,250 fps Penetrator ammo, and a red dot makes my job placing a bullet into the brain easier.

[03RN]

One difference is I assume you were hunting, and I am not. Hunting game and bears is different than defending against animals. My plan is to fire one warning shot, followed by one shot anywhere into the body. At that point, if the bear is still coming, with my handguns I need to penetrate the brain to reliably stop an attack. I am loaded with 1,250 fps Penetrator ammo, and a red dot makes my job placing a bullet into the brain easier.

That was a hunting scenario.

I've also had a 147gr fp hit dead center in a Fisher cat skull and deflect enough to circle around, follow the spine, then exit the tail.

[GJM]

That was a hunting scenario.

I've also had a 147gr fp hit dead center in a Fisher cat skull and deflect enough to circle around, follow the spine, then exit the tail.

Bullets do funny things. I once shot a Cape buffalo in the chest with a 500 grain solid out of a .460 G&A. It lifted the Buffalo up and pushed him backwards, but the bullet deformed and didn't penetrate his chest. Pick your poison and prepare to keep shooting!

[03RN]

Bullets do funny things. I once shot a Cape buffalo in the chest with a 500 grain solid out of a .460 G&A. It lifted the Buffalo up and pushed him backwards, but the bullet deformed and didn't penetrate his chest. Pick your poison and prepare to keep shooting!

I call it magic bullet syndrome.

[Doc_Glock]

Heading around grizzly bears the next few days, so I dragged an HK45C out to the range for some refam. Awesome pistol, but I shoot a dot equipped mid size like the G45/320 Compact/M&P so much better, that one would really need to believe in .45 to carry it. I plan to bring a 9mm with a dot and Lehigh Penetrator ammo along, and leave the 45C at home.

Wow. That is really an eye opener. So the HK 45 super field pistol is dead to you.

[JRB]

Heading around grizzly bears the next few days, so I dragged an HK45C out to the range for some refam. Awesome pistol, but I shoot a dot equipped mid size like the G45/320 Compact/M&P so much better, that one would really need to believe in .45 to carry it. I plan to bring a 9mm with a dot and Lehigh Penetrator ammo along, and leave the 45C at home.

I'm curious about a few details in your thought process there.
How much of that is the G45/P320, and how much of that is the red dot advantage?

If a slide milling could be done on an HK45C to suit, say, a Holosun 509, would that change your mind?

[GJM]

I'm curious about a few details in your thought process there.
How much of that is the G45/P320, and how much of that is the red dot advantage?

If a slide milling could be done on an HK45C to suit, say, a Holosun 509, would that change your mind?

I believe in bullet placement ahead of caliber, so much of it is the dot. I would love to have a USP FS 45 with an Acro and do some side by side with the competition.

[Forte Smitten Wesson]

Now I've heard everything... Carrying a 9mm into Grizzly Bear territory? You're a very brave man.

Yeah, I know that a lot of folks are saying that certain 9mm loads are adequate for Bear Defense these days, but personally I wouldn't be willing to put that to the test and would rather carry something with a lot more oomph that I could be absolutely certain would stop a bear. Stop, as in, not just kill it, but actually stop it dead in its tracks from a full charge.

Ah, but then again, if I were going into Grizzly country, then I would be slinging my Mossberg 590 Shockwave 12 Gauge loaded with Brenneke Black Magic Magnum Slugs, unless of course I couldn't and needed a pistol, then I would much sooner opt for the H&K USP45 than any 9mm, regardless of what kind of Lehigh Extreme Penetrator +P+ loads can supposedly do to a Grizzly.

[JRB]

Now I've heard everything... Carrying a 9mm into Grizzly Bear territory? You're a very brave man.

Yeah, I know that a lot of folks are saying that certain 9mm loads are adequate for Bear Defense these days, but personally I wouldn't be willing to put that to the test and would rather carry something with a lot more oomph that I could be absolutely certain would stop a bear. Stop, as in, not just kill it, but actually stop it dead in its tracks from a full charge.

Ah, but then again, if I were going into Grizzly country, then I would be slinging my Mossberg 590 Shockwave 12 Gauge loaded with Brenneke Black Magic Magnum Slugs, unless of course I couldn't and needed a pistol, then I would much sooner opt for the H&K USP45 than any 9mm, regardless of what kind of Lehigh Extreme Penetrator +P+ loads can supposedly do to a Grizzly.

GJM's spent a LOT of time in Alaska, often carrying a Benelli full of Brennekes, judging by the pictures he's shared. Understand that he is anything but a layman when it comes to brown bear defense, and it's his considerable experience in that arena as well as in pistol shooting with a red dot that makes his conclusion here noteworthy and remarkable.

Simple physics tells us that no handgun will physically stop a charging brown bear. Nor virtually anything short of a Gustav for that matter. It's effective CNS hits that stop creatures.
If he says a red dot on a well-sorted 9mm with well chosen loads designed for penetration can make that happen better than .45 Supers in an older HK with iron sights, I believe him.

[GJM]

In terms of pure bullet performance, a .44 magnum or larger revolver with wide meplat hard cast loads will run circles around any service pistol. As we have discussed, despite the difference in pure penetration, there are many reasons why an informed person might carry a service pistol over the more powerful revolver.

Once you get to a service pistol, I am not sure the difference between 9, 40, 45 and 10 is meaningful for bear defense, assuming you have a bullet that can penetrate the brain. It really gets down to what you have, what you can shoot reasonably well, and what you believe in. I fully believe in a Benelli or 1301 with Brenneke slugs, everything else handgun wise, it is pick your poison. If 10mm or 45 Super makes you feel better, by all means carry it. If I could easily drop an Acro on a USP FS 45, I would lean towards carrying that. No red dot is what makes it hard for me to decide.

[Forte Smitten Wesson]

Clearly GJM has much experience on the matter, and I wasn't arguing with his decision, merely stating that I wouldn't be confident enough to carry a 9mm into Grizzly Bear territory, but then again, I've never once set foot in Grizzly country, (biggest bears around here are Black Bears) and I probably never will.

I get it though, if I were lugging around a 12 Gauge all day long and after awhile had reached the conclusion that I could easily get away with carrying a 9mm either due to lack of bear sightings or simple observation that Grizzlies are far less resilient than they're commonly believed to be, then maybe I wouldn't carry a big, heavy Shotgun or even a USP45 either. But as someone who has never been face-to-face with a Grizzly before yet is well aware of what they can do, I'd feel much more comfortable carrying the absolute biggest, most powerful firearm that I possibly could, which would be either my 590 Shockwave, or failing that, my USP45 Elite.

If GJM is confident in carrying a 9mm into bear country based on years of personal experience and is certain that the 9mm load he's carrying will stop a Grizzly, then I won't argue with that, but I won't be following his example either. I just don't have the experience, the confidence, or the nerve to square off with a Grizzly, while armed only with a 9mm pistol.

[RJ]

One difference is I assume you were hunting, and I am not. Hunting game and bears is different than defending against animals. My plan is to fire one warning shot, followed by one shot anywhere into the body. At that point, if the bear is still coming, with my handguns I need to penetrate the brain to reliably stop an attack. I am loaded with 1,250 fps Penetrator ammo, and a red dot makes my job placing a bullet into the brain easier.

Astro and I will be behind you and Mrs. GJM. :)


Bullets do funny things. I once shot a Cape buffalo in the chest with a 500 grain solid out of a .460 G&A. It lifted the Buffalo up and pushed him backwards, but the bullet deformed and didn't penetrate his chest.

Smokes! What happened next?

[GJM]

Astro and I will be behind you and Mrs. GJM. :)



Smokes! What happened next?

The buffalo ran off into thick cover and a fair amount of drama ensued before the buffalo died. The cool thing is it was all on video, or what we called video thirty years ago.

[GJM]

Clearly GJM has much experience on the matter, and I wasn't arguing with his decision, merely stating that I wouldn't be confident enough to carry a 9mm into Grizzly Bear territory, but then again, I've never once set foot in Grizzly country, (biggest bears around here are Black Bears) and I probably never will.

I get it though, if I were lugging around a 12 Gauge all day long and after awhile had reached the conclusion that I could easily get away with carrying a 9mm either due to lack of bear sightings or simple observation that Grizzlies are far less resilient than they're commonly believed to be, then maybe I wouldn't carry a big, heavy Shotgun or even a USP45 either. But as someone who has never been face-to-face with a Grizzly before yet is well aware of what they can do, I'd feel much more comfortable carrying the absolute biggest, most powerful firearm that I possibly could, which would be either my 590 Shockwave, or failing that, my USP45 Elite.

If GJM is confident in carrying a 9mm into bear country based on years of personal experience and is certain that the 9mm load he's carrying will stop a Grizzly, then I won't argue with that, but I won't be following his example either. I just don't have the experience, the confidence, or the nerve to square off with a Grizzly, while armed only with a 9mm pistol.

I think this post crossed with my reply above, but we both seem to have an appreciation for the power of large bears.

[Lost River]

Now I've heard everything... Carrying a 9mm into Grizzly Bear territory? You're a very brave man.

Yeah, I know that a lot of folks are saying that certain 9mm loads are adequate for Bear Defense these days, but personally I wouldn't be willing to put that to the test and would rather carry something with a lot more oomph that I could be absolutely certain would stop a bear. Stop, as in, not just kill it, but actually stop it dead in its tracks from a full charge.

Ah, but then again, if I were going into Grizzly country, then I would be slinging my Mossberg 590 Shockwave 12 Gauge loaded with Brenneke Black Magic Magnum Slugs, unless of course I couldn't and needed a pistol, then I would much sooner opt for the H&K USP45 than any 9mm, regardless of what kind of Lehigh Extreme Penetrator +P+ loads can supposedly do to a Grizzly.

I spend a fair amount of time recreationally in bear/wolf/lion country.

In running around Livingston, Big Timber, Ennis, Helena, Billings and others just off the top of my head, (I will be around Wolf Creek tomorrow) just this spring/early summer, I have never seen a hiker/backpacker packing a pistol gripped shotgun. That's just on the MT side. Same goes for ID.



Since I don't feel like taking a bunch of different guns, I opted to bring two. A 4" Model 29 with 305 grain hardcast pushed by H110, and the S&W 4563 PC .45ACP. It will serve both as a lightweight hiking gun and CCW piece.

[Forte Smitten Wesson]

Fortunately, my decisions on what to carry aren't based strictly upon that which others choose to carry, and being one who unfortunately cannot go out and purchase whatever on a whim, I most often have to make due with what I have, and since the 590 Shockwave is the most powerful firearm that I own which I can conceivably carry and make ready quickly, it would be my first choice of carry in Grizzly Bear territory.

That being said, I find it somewhat strange that more folks don't carry firearms like the Mossberg 590 Shockwave or Remington Tac-14 in the wilderness when 12 Gauge Shotguns are so versatile and can be loaded to deal with just about anything one might encounter in the wild, and the more compact size of the firearm would seem to lend itself better towards carry, not to mention make ready and fire more quickly in the event of an attack.
But then again, as previously stated, I have never been in Grizzly country, and the biggest bears around here are the smaller, less aggressive, and more easily stopped Black Bear, so I've never felt the need to carry my Shockwave anywhere, it was purchased for Home Defense as well as the fact that I just plain wanted one.

[GJM]

I spend a fair amount of time recreationally in bear/wolf/lion country.

In running around Livingston, Big Timber, Ennis, Helena, Billings and others just off the top of my head, (I will be around Wolf Creek tomorrow) just this spring/early summer, I have never seen a hiker/backpacker packing a pistol gripped shotgun. That's just on the MT side. Same goes for ID.



Since I don't feel like taking a bunch of different guns, I opted to bring two. A 4" Model 29 with 305 grain hardcast pushed by H110, and the S&W 4563 PC .45ACP. It will serve both as a lightweight hiking gun and CCW piece.


Fortunately, my decisions on what to carry aren't based strictly upon that which others choose to carry, and being one who unfortunately cannot go out and purchase whatever on a whim, I most often have to make due with what I have, and since the 590 Shockwave is the most powerful firearm that I own which I can conceivably carry and make ready quickly, it would be my first choice of carry in Grizzly Bear territory.

That being said, I find it somewhat strange that more folks don't carry firearms like the Mossberg 590 Shockwave or Remington Tac-14 in the wilderness when 12 Gauge Shotguns are so versatile and can be loaded to deal with just about anything one might encounter in the wild, and the more compact size of the firearm would seem to lend itself better towards carry, not to mention make ready and fire more quickly in the event of an attack.
But then again, as previously stated, I have never been in Grizzly country, and the biggest bears around here are the smaller, less aggressive, and more easily stopped Black Bear, so I've never felt the need to carry my Shockwave anywhere, it was purchased for Home Defense as well as the fact that I just plain wanted one.

In Alaska, the norm is for someone out and about in bear country to have a shotgun and slugs. Almost odd to see no long gun. In the lower 48, I don’t recall ever seeing a person hiking or recreating with a defensive shotgun in their hands.

[BillSWPA]

Fortunately, my decisions on what to carry aren't based strictly upon that which others choose to carry, and being one who unfortunately cannot go out and purchase whatever on a whim, I most often have to make due with what I have, and since the 590 Shockwave is the most powerful firearm that I own which I can conceivably carry and make ready quickly, it would be my first choice of carry in Grizzly Bear territory.

That being said, I find it somewhat strange that more folks don't carry firearms like the Mossberg 590 Shockwave or Remington Tac-14 in the wilderness when 12 Gauge Shotguns are so versatile and can be loaded to deal with just about anything one might encounter in the wild, and the more compact size of the firearm would seem to lend itself better towards carry, not to mention make ready and fire more quickly in the event of an attack.
But then again, as previously stated, I have never been in Grizzly country, and the biggest bears around here are the smaller, less aggressive, and more easily stopped Black Bear, so I've never felt the need to carry my Shockwave anywhere, it was purchased for Home Defense as well as the fact that I just plain wanted one.

How accurately can you shoot the shockwave as compared to a conventional handgun or shotgun?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lost River]

In Alaska, the norm is for someone out and about in bear country to have a shotgun and slugs. Almost odd to see no long gun. In the lower 48, I don’t recall ever seeing a person hiking or recreating with a defensive shotgun in their hands.

As you know in and around places like Bozo and Missoula, it is an entirely different breed of people. I Wholeheartedly endorse shotguns. Its the pistol grip only, short barrel shotguns that I don't care for. Trying to shoot slugs through one quickly at a fast moving target when you yourself are likely to be on uneven ground is not something I would want to rely on. I would much rather have a stock on my gun, even a youth stock.

I have seen a few people at ranges with the shockwave style guns, and their skill at arms with such guns is dismal, and that is while shooting at a stationary piece of cardboard..

[Lost River]

Fortunately, my decisions on what to carry aren't based strictly upon that which others choose to carry, and being one who unfortunately cannot go out and purchase whatever on a whim, I most often have to make due with what I have, and since the 590 Shockwave is the most powerful firearm that I own which I can conceivably carry and make ready quickly, it would be my first choice of carry in Grizzly Bear territory.

That being said, I find it somewhat strange that more folks don't carry firearms like the Mossberg 590 Shockwave or Remington Tac-14 in the wilderness when 12 Gauge Shotguns are so versatile and can be loaded to deal with just about anything one might encounter in the wild, and the more compact size of the firearm would seem to lend itself better towards carry, not to mention make ready and fire more quickly in the event of an attack.
But then again, as previously stated, I have never been in Grizzly country, and the biggest bears around here are the smaller, less aggressive, and more easily stopped Black Bear, so I've never felt the need to carry my Shockwave anywhere, it was purchased for Home Defense as well as the fact that I just plain wanted one.

People generally don't carry long guns in the lower 48 (outside of hunting season) simply for the fact that it is not practical. Most of the time you are hiking and backpacking. There are not grizzly bears around every corner. There however can be lots of elevation gains, lots of miles to cover and weight adds up. If I am going to be going on a long hike, or a hike up a steep grade, I ditch stuff that weighs a lot on my pack that is not important. There is a saying, "ounces equal pounds, pounds equal pain".

If I was going into an area that had a known problem, that would be one thing. I would likely take extra precaution. But for general purpose use in Grizzly country, I find a good handgun and a slower friend sufficient.

[OlongJohnson]

But for general purpose use in Grizzly country, I find a good handgun and a slower friend sufficient.

Which I guess means you'll be hiking in a group of at least three.

[Forte Smitten Wesson]

How accurately can you shoot the shockwave as compared to a conventional handgun or shotgun?

Obviously not quite as well, but suffice to say, good enough that I'd be willing to trust my life to it.


As you know in and around places like Bozo and Missoula, it is an entirely different breed of people. I Wholeheartedly endorse shotguns. Its the pistol grip only, short barrel shotguns that I don't care for. Trying to shoot slugs through one quickly at a fast moving target when you yourself are likely to be on uneven ground is not something I would want to rely on. I would much rather have a stock on my gun, even a youth stock.

I have seen a few people at ranges with the shockwave style guns, and their skill at arms with such guns is dismal, and that is while shooting at a stationary piece of cardboard..

Most folks shoot the Shockwave from the hip, which obviously isn't beneficial towards accuracy, ergo their accuracy with it is unimpressive. However, I doubt that most folks who buy the Shockwave do so with any intention of using it in a defensive role, but rather for recreation or the obvious cool factor, most likely with preconceptions that decent accuracy was impossible without a stock, so they never even bothered seeking methods of how to aim/shoot it accurately.

Still, I'm surprised that they haven't found a niche as wilderness defense firearms, particularly among former military/law enforcement personnel who were familiar with the use/operation of similar short-barreled shotguns in similar configurations. Granted that military/police most often trained to use them in close quarters where full-length shotguns weren't good for maneuverability and that they were most likely primarily used for breaching, but even so, I figured that they might recognize them for the potential in the field. Apparently not though.

[OlongJohnson]

Once you get to a service pistol, I am not sure the difference between 9, 40, 45 and 10 is meaningful for bear defense, assuming you have a bullet that can penetrate the brain. It really gets down to what you have, what you can shoot reasonably well, and what you believe in. I fully believe in a Benelli or 1301 with Brenneke slugs, everything else handgun wise, it is pick your poison. If 10mm or 45 Super makes you feel better, by all means carry it. If I could easily drop an Acro on a USP FS 45, I would lean towards carrying that. No red dot is what makes it hard for me to decide.

I wonder about the penetration. In a test skull, well lined up, it appears the Lehigh bullets will get through. But if the shot is less well-centered and the bullet strikes away from center and hits bone at more of an oblique angle, it seems to me that a bullet with twice the mass and similar velocity would be less likely to be deflected by the bone. Heavier tends to be better at continuing in the direction it's going and smashing things that are in the way.

I obviously have zero experience to try to judge how that consideration weighs out against the likelihood of improved marksmanship with a 9mm.

I could probably dig it out of another thread, but what dot are you using for outdoors? I seem to remember you posting a few years back where you tried an open-emitter dot outdoors and either condensation or a water droplet dispersed the light at the emitter so there was no dot on the lens.

[GJM]

I wonder about the penetration. In a test skull, well lined up, it appears the Lehigh bullets will get through. But if the shot is less well-centered and the bullet strikes away from center and hits bone at more of an oblique angle, it seems to me that a bullet with twice the mass and similar velocity would be less likely to be deflected by the bone. Heavier tends to be better at continuing in the direction it's going and smashing things that are in the way.

I obviously have zero experience to try to judge how that consideration weighs out against the likelihood of improved marksmanship with a 9mm.

I could probably dig it out of another thread, but what dot are you using for outdoors? I seem to remember you posting a few years back where you tried an open-emitter dot outdoors and either condensation or a water droplet dispersed the light at the emitter so there was no dot on the lens.

Acro or 509T for field use.

Fortunately, most bear attacks are stopped without having to penetrate the brain, or the stats would look much different.

[Lost River]

Obviously not quite as well, but suffice to say, good enough that I'd be willing to trust my life to it.



Most folks shoot the Shockwave from the hip, which obviously isn't beneficial towards accuracy, ergo their accuracy with it is unimpressive. However, I doubt that most folks who buy the Shockwave do so with any intention of using it in a defensive role, but rather for recreation or the obvious cool factor, most likely with preconceptions that decent accuracy was impossible without a stock, so they never even bothered seeking methods of how to aim/shoot it accurately.

Still, I'm surprised that they haven't found a niche as wilderness defense firearms, particularly among former military/law enforcement personnel who were familiar with the use/operation of similar short-barreled shotguns in similar configurations. Granted that military/police most often trained to use them in close quarters where full-length shotguns weren't good for maneuverability and that they were most likely primarily used for breaching, but even so, I figured that they might recognize them for the potential in the field. Apparently not though.

This is based on your experience?

[Lost River]

Which I guess means you'll be hiking in a group of at least three.

Well played sir!

There was a little back and forth about this.
I mentioned tying her shoes for her.
She said she can haul ass barefoot.
I said, that settled it, I was bringing a suppressed .22.
She honestly had no idea where that joke was going.
She said she didn't think the .22 was a good choice for a bear.
I told her I agreed, but its a great choice for your kneecap!
I could hear her gasp on the other end of the phone. :eek:

:cool:

The others in the group were laughing pretty hard!

[BillSWPA]

Obviously not quite as well, but suffice to say, good enough that I'd be willing to trust my life to it.



Most folks shoot the Shockwave from the hip, which obviously isn't beneficial towards accuracy, ergo their accuracy with it is unimpressive. However, I doubt that most folks who buy the Shockwave do so with any intention of using it in a defensive role, but rather for recreation or the obvious cool factor, most likely with preconceptions that decent accuracy was impossible without a stock, so they never even bothered seeking methods of how to aim/shoot it accurately.

Still, I'm surprised that they haven't found a niche as wilderness defense firearms, particularly among former military/law enforcement personnel who were familiar with the use/operation of similar short-barreled shotguns in similar configurations. Granted that military/police most often trained to use them in close quarters where full-length shotguns weren't good for maneuverability and that they were most likely primarily used for breaching, but even so, I figured that they might recognize them for the potential in the field. Apparently not though.

I am aware of some police departments that issued pistol grip shotguns to certain types of officers, but am not aware of any such officers who liked or would have chosen those guns.

[03RN]

As you know in and around places like Bozo and Missoula, it is an entirely different breed of people. I Wholeheartedly endorse shotguns. Its the pistol grip only, short barrel shotguns that I don't care for. Trying to shoot slugs through one quickly at a fast moving target when you yourself are likely to be on uneven ground is not something I would want to rely on. I would much rather have a stock on my gun, even a youth stock.

I have seen a few people at ranges with the shockwave style guns, and their skill at arms with such guns is dismal, and that is while shooting at a stationary piece of cardboard..

I've done a lot of hunting, shooting and hiking with mine. It fits nicely on the side of my osprey Atmos pack.

https://youtu.be/UevW_PJ3iHs

https://youtu.be/fN0ZUVGpmUQ
74379

[Duelist]

I've done a lot of hunting, shooting and hiking with mine. It fits nicely on the side of my osprey Atmos pack.

https://youtu.be/UevW_PJ3iHs

https://youtu.be/fN0ZUVGpmUQ
74379

Interesting soundtrack to the car shooting. ;)

[03RN]

Interesting soundtrack to the car shooting. ;)

:cool:

https://youtu.be/xOFkabebEAs

[Clusterfrack]

03RN, that’s impressive shooting with the Shockwave. Full power buckshot or low recoil? How much of your skill with this weapon depends on you being a monster?

[03RN]

03RN, that’s impressive shooting with the Shockwave. Full power buckshot or low recoil? How much of your skill with this weapon depends on you being a monster?

I think all that shooting above was with bulk birdshot.

This is with 3” mag buckshot, though I typically use low recoil buck/slugs in it.

https://youtu.be/YX_AliZv0j4

I can't really say how much muscle is needed, just that Im comfortable with it.

[JHC]

I wonder about the penetration. In a test skull, well lined up, it appears the Lehigh bullets will get through. But if the shot is less well-centered and the bullet strikes away from center and hits bone at more of an oblique angle, it seems to me that a bullet with twice the mass and similar velocity would be less likely to be deflected by the bone. Heavier tends to be better at continuing in the direction it's going and smashing things that are in the way.

I obviously have zero experience to try to judge how that consideration weighs out against the likelihood of improved marksmanship with a 9mm.

I could probably dig it out of another thread, but what dot are you using for outdoors? I seem to remember you posting a few years back where you tried an open-emitter dot outdoors and either condensation or a water droplet dispersed the light at the emitter so there was no dot on the lens.


Many years ago, long before PF I found a fascinating blog written by a long time AK hunter who got fairly well mauled once and was saved by hunting partners shooting the brownie. He made quite a study of bear defense and spoke in some detail of testing Alaska Troopers did on whole brown/grizzly bear heads they had the DNR freeze and save for them (from a variety of causes of death of the bear, road kills for example).

The Troopers were evaluating service calibers and heavier revolvers. What he reported as to the Troopers' findings was that if the skull was hit solid, all the service pistols penetrated the skulls. That was 9mm, .40 and .45 at the time as I recall. He also reported they found that on a less than solid glancing hit, .44 magnum slugs should be expected to deflect and fail also.

I've looked and looked for years since for that blog to no avail sadly so it's just a story now. "Is that a true story?" "It's true that its a story." (Sheriff Ed Tom Bell ;) )

In any case, I take it the AK Troopers subsequently chose the .40 Glocks.

[OlongJohnson]

Also wonder about the effects of ammo selection. Old-school non-bonded, bonded, something like the Lehigh might perform differently.

[GJM]

Many years ago, long before PF I found a fascinating blog written by a long time AK hunter who got fairly well mauled once and was saved by hunting partners shooting the brownie. He made quite a study of bear defense and spoke in some detail of testing Alaska Troopers did on whole brown/grizzly bear heads they had the DNR freeze and save for them (from a variety of causes of death of the bear, road kills for example).

The Troopers were evaluating service calibers and heavier revolvers. What he reported as to the Troopers' findings was that if the skull was hit solid, all the service pistols penetrated the skulls. That was 9mm, .40 and .45 at the time as I recall. He also reported they found that on a less than solid glancing hit, .44 magnum slugs should be expected to deflect and fail also.

I've looked and looked for years since for that blog to no avail sadly so it's just a story now. "Is that a true story?" "It's true that its a story." (Sheriff Ed Tom Bell ;) )

In any case, I take it the AK Troopers subsequently chose the .40 Glocks.

We have discussed this, and it is too bad we haven't been able to find that information again. I suspect the selection of the .40 then had more to do with it being the common police cartridge than bear skill penetration.

Back to the Shockwave, impressive performance on the video, but a reason handguns, and I emphasize "hand," do well in bear attacks is due to their ability to be shot one hand. The Shockwave becomes a no-go for me for that reason, although the semi auto model would be more interesting. Really hard to beat a 1301 or M2 with a micro and Brenneke slugs backed up by a handgun.

[JHC]

We have discussed this, and it is too bad we haven't been able to find that information again. I suspect the selection of the .40 then had more to do with it being the common police cartridge than bear skill penetration.

Back to the Shockwave, impressive performance on the video, but a reason handguns, and I emphasize "hand," do well in bear attacks is due to their ability to be shot one hand. The Shockwave becomes a no-go for me for that reason, although the semi auto model would be more interesting. Really hard to beat a 1301 or M2 with a micro and Brenneke slugs backed up by a handgun.

Yep yep re the choice of the .40, but why not given it was no great handicap should a Trooper have to use one to dispatch a bear.

One of your ESSENTIAL points re the choice of a defensive handgun be it in town or in the field and esp in the AK field - is the absolute familiarity and skill to use said handgun in the gravest extreme fighting for your life.

You've made that point better than any - why spend big volumes of training time and ammo with one type of handgun, then choose something totally different that one might only occasionally shoot in lower volumes to protect yourself in the wild lands.

For example in the train up for my AK visit which involved just a small amount of hiking I put my Glocks through the paces vs my 4" Model 629. Shot the scenarios on the timer. I came to the same conclusion and packed a G22 with hard boolits up there.

[MistWolf]

:cool:

https://youtu.be/xOFkabebEAs

“Awe, c’mon fellas! I said time out! I gotta reload!”

[GJM]

With plans to hike near Red Lodge, MT this weekend, I looked long and hard at the USP FS before leaving on the trip. Went cold turkey and took a Glock 9mm and the Underwoods. 2,500 feet up and back down to get on a gorgeous plateau at 10,000 feet today. No bears spotted!

74523

[MickAK]

Back to the Shockwave, impressive performance on the video, but a reason handguns, and I emphasize "hand," do well in bear attacks is due to their ability to be shot one hand.

I think this is something that's difficult to explain to people that don't spend a lot of time going through thick brush.

There's just not a way to have a long gun ready for hours and hours of strenuous work doing that. You are going to get tired and you are going to sling it to your pack, or you are going to get sick of it snagging every 5 feet and sling it to your pack and cover it. Or you are going to fall on your face because you have both hands on a long gun at low ready when you slip and need to grab something. Or you're going to lean it against a tree to defecate. I suppose it's possible to go through Alaskan wilderness bowed up with a compact shotgun at the ready at all times but it doesn't sound like very much fun to me.

Bears I can see don't really scare me. It's the bear I can't see 20 feet away in the brush that just started clacking his teeth that scares me.

[Bergeron]

With plans to hike near Red Lodge, MT this weekend, I looked long and hard at the USP FS before leaving on the trip. Went cold turkey and took a Glock 9mm and the Underwoods. 2,500 feet up and back down to get on a gorgeous plateau at 10,000 feet today. No bears spotted!

74523

The swamps and marshes have their beauty, but your pictures of the Western and Alaskan wildernesses frequently leave me slack-jawed in admiration.

I'm still interested in bigger-bored semi-autos, but I am always interested to learn of useful success with specialized loadings in 9mm.

[Buckeye63]

74525

I catch myself strapping on my Gen 3 23 loaded with 180gr Whitebox JHP when I head out in the woods more often lately.. nuthin but Black Bears and meth heads are my only worries in the woods …

[fatdog]

Just envious you got to hike into the Beartooth range. My western trip for this year got canceled.

[OlongJohnson]

Just envious you got to hike into the Beartooth range. My western trip for this year got canceled.

Suspicious outline there on the left side of the backpack...

GJM does what he wants.

74529

[Irelander]

Just envious you got to hike into the Beartooth range. My western trip for this year got canceled.

Likewise. The last time I was in the Beartooth was back in 2010. We fell in love with Red Lodge. The mountains have been calling ever since. Need to get back there sometime soon or I'll go crazy. Guess I'll need to source a USP45 FS for the trip.


*heads off to Gunbroker

[Caballoflaco]

This popped up on my YouTube feed today. It’s from Active Self protection a couple of years ago and shows a dude still mobile and who made it 70 yards after taking 4 hits (at least one was lethal since he died) from a .44 mag. Just some more real world data that shot placement trumps everything and .44 doesn’t even have the power to knock down a human sized mammal if structure or cpu isn’t hit.


https://youtu.be/VC4c5OEKVWs

[Gun Mutt]

Guess I'll need to source a USP45 FS for the trip.
*heads off to Gunbroker
Or mebbe some Lehigh ammo for one of the 9mm's you already own?

Jeebus, I don't know what's wrong with me, I can't believe those words came outta my keyboard. I'm sorry, All...I know this isn't what we do here when someone wants a new pistola. It's probably just the propathol, I had a procedure this morning and I'm still not all the way back. Forget I said anything.

[OlongJohnson]

Or mebbe some Lehigh ammo for one of the 9mm's you already own?

Why not both?

[JoeSixPack]

Unfortunately, Red Lodge made the news (https://www.eastidahonews.com/2021/07/missing-montana-hiker-believed-to-have-died-in-accident/)earlier this month in the form of a missing female hiker who is presumed dead. Be safe out there.

[03RN]

This popped up on my YouTube feed today. It’s from Active Self protection a couple of years ago and shows a dude still mobile and who made it 70 yards after taking 4 hits (at least one was lethal since he died) from a .44 mag. Just some more real world data that shot placement trumps everything and .44 doesn’t even have the power to knock down a human sized mammal if structure or cpu isn’t hit.


https://youtu.be/VC4c5OEKVWs

I've had deer and men run/fight after 12g/.308.

[JonInWA]

Thanks in large part to this forum, both this thread and particularly GJM's other thread on Underwood Lehigh cartridges, I feel very comfortable in using my Gen4 Glock G22 with .40 Underwood Lehigh's; and similarly with my Gen 3 G21 with .45 ACP Underwood Lehighs when on hunting trips or wilderness hikes. On shorter hikes with my wife, I'm likely to use my HK VP40 with the Underwood Lehighs, simply because the VP would be easy for my wife to use if necessary.

I will admit that a HK USP/HK45 is somewhat on my desirability radar acquisition list, but I'm pretty well covered as things are-they'd be a "want" as opposed to a "need."

Best, Jon

[Borderland]

I think this is something that's difficult to explain to people that don't spend a lot of time going through thick brush.

There's just not a way to have a long gun ready for hours and hours of strenuous work doing that. You are going to get tired and you are going to sling it to your pack, or you are going to get sick of it snagging every 5 feet and sling it to your pack and cover it. Or you are going to fall on your face because you have both hands on a long gun at low ready when you slip and need to grab something. Or you're going to lean it against a tree to defecate. I suppose it's possible to go through Alaskan wilderness bowed up with a compact shotgun at the ready at all times but it doesn't sound like very much fun to me.

Bears I can see don't really scare me. It's the bear I can't see 20 feet away in the brush that just started clacking his teeth that scares me.

You would probably carry a shotgun only one time on a wilderness hike. My choice would be something polymer that was rated for 45 +P+ like the HK45 or USP 45.

I know a guy who used to live in Anchorage. He hiked and fished a lot. He has a 6" Colt Anaconda he carried and he said it was a PIA because it was so damn heavy. I shot it a few times and I don't think I would want to pack it either. About 4 lbs loaded.

[GJM]

You would probably carry a shotgun only one time on a wilderness hike. My choice would be something polymer that was rated for 45 +P+ like the HK45 or USP 45.

I know a guy who used to live in Anchorage. He hiked and fished a lot. He has a 6" Colt Anaconda he carried and he said it was a PIA because it was so damn heavy. I shot it a few times and I don't think I would want to pack it either. About 4 lbs loaded.

I carry a shotgun on nearly every hike I am on in remote Alaska. As Clint says, it is supposed to be comforting not comfortable.

[Clusterfrack]

I carry a shotgun on nearly every hike I am on in remote Alaska. As Clint says, it is supposed to be comforting not comfortable.

On our latest AK trip, I carried a 1301 on some of our hikes. A lot were steep and long enough that I took a G20 instead. And--I totally get what MickAK is saying about heavy brush and an awkward long gun. There's no one best solution.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210720/b52477f1744d4338868a582f940b0b0f.jpg

[MickAK]

I carry a shotgun on nearly every hike I am on in remote Alaska. As Clint says, it is supposed to be comforting not comfortable.

Yeah, but you make plans on how to deal with getting attacked by 3 bears at once so....

A lot of it depends on what you're doing and where, and when. I am usually backpacking in temperate rainforest off-trail and if I have a long gun it's for meat, blacktail/other small animals. I know those bears and their habits. I'm comfortable there. The handgun is as much for sketchy people as it is for bears.

I wouldn't walk around the West end of Kodiak or Unimak in October/November during hyperphagia without a long gun in an appropriate caliber because I am the farthest thing from comfortable at that time. I don't know those bears the same way and there's less to eat.

I suppose everyone's comfortable until they get ate.

[GJM]

From my perspective, there is a world of difference between a service pistol with penetrating ammo and a semi auto shotgun with a dot and full tube of Brenneke slugs. The pistol is about bluffing and then finesse, where the Brenneke is about bringing definitive power to the fight. In any event, I have convinced myself I get a better workout with another 8 pounds in my hands. :)

[BobM]

Thanks in large part to this forum, both this thread and particularly GJM's other thread on Underwood Lehigh cartridges, I feel very comfortable in using my Gen4 Glock G22 with .40 Underwood Lehigh's; and similarly with my Gen 3 G21 with .45 ACP Underwood Lehighs when on hunting trips or wilderness hikes. On shorter hikes with my wife, I'm likely to use my HK VP40 with the Underwood Lehighs, simply because the VP would be easy for my wife to use if necessary.

I will admit that a HK USP/HK45 is somewhat on my desirability radar acquisition list, but I'm pretty well covered as things are-they'd be a "want" as opposed to a "need."

Best, Jon

Agreed. Earlier in the thread I was hot to get a USP45 for when I get to travel west next year or so. Now I’ll be happy to get some Underwood ammunition for the M&P40s I already have and shoot regularly.

[Forte Smitten Wesson]

I just found this old advertisement that I figured that I'd share due to it's relevance towards my last few posts in this thread...

As previously stated, if you feel comfortable carrying a 9mm or whatever, then that's cool, and I could see why an expert may choose such a thing, especially if they have gone on numerous trips without even seeing a bear. No sense in lugging around a big heavy shotgun or pistol if you can get by with a 9mm, especially if you may never even run into a bear at all.

[Gray Ghost]

Of possible interest, my EDC is a USP45 Full Size with LEM conversion. When afield, however, I usually carry either my Glock 20 Gen4 or my 4" pre-lock, Magna-ported, S&W 629. I am heading to the Idaho panhandle for six days of archery elk hunting in September. I was planning on carrying the G20.

Buffalo bore has a 255 grain hard cast 45 Super load that they advertise at 1075 fps. Might be worth considering.

ETA: For direct comparison, they advertise their 21C 10mm load as a 220grain hard cast bullet at 1140 fps from a G20. Probably not much practical difference between them.

[Gray Ghost]

From my perspective, there is a world of difference between a service pistol with penetrating ammo and a semi auto shotgun with a dot and full tube of Brenneke slugs. The pistol is about bluffing and then finesse, where the Brenneke is about bringing definitive power to the fight. In any event, I have convinced myself I get a better workout with another 8 pounds in my hands. :)

I was going hunting for a brown bear, I would just bring my Ruger Safari Magnum in .416 Rigby. Do you think the 12 ga. with the Brennekes is better up close? I guess it shoots faster and holds more rounds.

[GJM]

I was going hunting for a brown bear, I would just bring my Ruger Safari Magnum in .416 Rigby. Do you think the 12 ga. with the Brennekes is better up close? I guess it shoots faster and holds more rounds.

I have multiples of both calibers, and think a .375 H&H is a better hunting cartridge for grizzly than a .416 Rigby. However, this isn't about hunting it is about bear defense. While I have shot a grizzly in self defense with a .375 H&H, I would take a Beretta/Benelli with Brenneke slugs every time for defense, over a bolt gun.

[Gray Ghost]

I have multiples of both calibers, and think a .375 H&H is a better hunting cartridge for grizzly than a .416 Rigby. However, this isn't about hunting it is about bear defense. While I have shot a grizzly in self defense with a .375 H&H, I would take a Beretta/Benelli with Brenneke slugs every time for defense, over a bolt gun.

That is very interesting. I have a Winchester 70 Safari Express chambered in .375 H&H. I love that thing. It would not have occurred to me to choose it for brown bear. Why do you like it better than a .416 Rigby for that application?

How did the .375 perform on the bear? What load were you using? I shot a very large waterbuck with mine using a 260 grain Nosler Partition hand load. It was a quartering away shot and I got the liver and at least one lung. The thing ran over 100 yards before collapsing. Stuff happens.

And I take from your comment that the semi-auto action is the trump factor for close quarters bear defense. I can't argue with that.

[GJM]

That is very interesting. I have a Winchester 70 Safari Express chambered in .375 H&H. I love that thing. It would not have occurred to me to choose it for brown bear. Why do you like it better than a .416 Rigby for that application?

How did the .375 perform on the bear? What load were you using? I shot a very large waterbuck with mine using a 260 grain Nosler Partition hand load. It was a quartering away shot and I got the liver and at least one lung. The thing ran over 100 yards before collapsing. Stuff happens.

And I take from your comment that the semi-auto action is the trump factor for close quarters bear defense. I can't argue with that.

Unlike Cape buffalo, elephant and the other thick skinned African animals that the Rigby was developed for, a grizzly bear is considered thin skinned, and a 300 grain .375 bullet has enough diameter and mass to put a hurt on a bear, while recoiling enough less than a 400 grain Rigby load to allow faster follow up shots. I used a 300 grain Trophy Bonded bullet on grizzly.

For perspective, I have shot multiple buffalo and an elephant with a .416 Rigby, and multiple buffalo, a lion, leopard and many plains game with .375 H&H.

[MickAK]

74950

A shotgun is certainly more reassuring on occasion.

[GJM]

Arrived back in Alaska this afternoon, opened the gun safe and saw two USP FS 45 and a FS 40, loaded with Underwood Lehigh ammo, sitting in JM AIWB holsters. Had a nice warm feeling, and then remembered I was running a 9mm, at least for now.

Headed out for a hike across the road from our cabin, and 100 yards down the trail ran into this.

75032

And, just before the turn around point, encountered this.

75033

I generally don’t carry a shotgun hiking in the neighborhood in town, but apparently bears are also enjoying the local trails.

[GJM]

My wife isn’t set up with a sealed emitter dot gun and holster yet, so she has been carrying her HK45C with penetrator ammo.

75239

[GJM]

Between slides, frames and optics, I have a number of configurations, but they all use these up here.

75267

[GJM]

Duplicate

[Rack]

Are all of the HK mags now made of plastic? Didn't they used to be steel? I looked at a USP the other day in a shop and they were plastic.

[Ndbbm]

Are all of the HK mags now made of plastic? Didn't they used to be steel? I looked at a USP the other day in a shop and they were plastic.

The usp series (full size 9mm and 40 cal) uses a plastic magazine (I assume there’s more metal under the plastic than just the feed lips but not positive. Everything else I can think of uses a metal magazines.

Jason

[HCM]

The usp series (full size 9mm and 40 cal) uses a plastic magazine (I assume there’s more metal under the plastic than just the feed lips but not positive. Everything else I can think of uses a metal magazines.

Jason

No, the original 9/40 USP mags are all plastic.

[JAH 3rd]

My USP 45 mags are metal, but its been years since I ordered any. Don't know if they have changed.

[KevH]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElGMvuTC54E

All 45 ACP mags are metal.

The USP 40 and 9 (full size) mags are plastic. Some have partial metal inserts and others (like the new 18 rounders) have full metal inserts.

The USP Compact, P2000, P30 and VP9 mags are all metal.

[1slow]

To the best of my knowledge:

USP 45, USPC45, HK45, HK45C , P30 series, P2000 series, Mark23, VP9, USP9 & 40 compact, P7 series are steel.

USP9, USP40 , The black plastic mags have steel liners, the white plastic mags do not have a full metal liner.

[1More]

So, to make a long story short, due to a lack of holsters, I’ll be taking my 226 loaded with BB Outdoorsman 147 +P hardcast as my carry gun for an upcoming week long trip to Alaska. I proofed the loads with the guns a little later than I wanted, and every holster for the USP 45 is special order. I am happy that I was able to get a Kenai Chest rig for my P226 (old Cerakote version of the Scorpion). I held off ordering holsters as I wanted to vet the rounds and my strong hand (post carpal tunnel surgery). I had decided on a primary and secondary preparation strategy, hence why I had the USP ready with the 226 as the backup. By the time I was able to get on the range and run everything to my satisfaction, it was too late to source decent holsters for the USP 45. The USP was a relatively recent purchase as primary gun for this trip (selected over a G20 and Model 29 for reasons discussed in this thread). I’m not distraught; I have multiple thousands of rounds through this P226 and magazines. The gun is solid, shoots straight, and is relatively quick for me. The night sights will be replaced soon as half-life fade is setting in, but are fine for now and I like stock sig irons. As has been pointed out in this thread, this gun’s purpose is not hunting, it’s to give me a fighting chance in an emergency. Reliability, penetration, and shootability were my priorities. I considered my Gen5 G17 or G34 but chose the 226 as I preferred the DA/SA gun for this purpose, reliability is a wash between them and I’ve been working with the 226 more over the past few months. If I started with the G17 as my alternate and it had run fine with the BB ammo, I’d be as happy running it. In hindsight, preferring the Glock might have made sense since I was worried about hand strength after the surgery. As it is, I haven't had any issues running a double action trigger since I've gotten back on the gun. At a certain point though, one has to make the call on the best of the equipment they have at hand and that's where I'm at(I've seen guys in other professions go into analysis paralysis of their gear when what they needed to do was lace up their boots and get moving). My thanks to everyone who's built this mega thread and the experience they've shared, notably GJM.

PS: Yes, first post. I've been a Ninja watcher for years...I had a life;)

[MickAK]

So, to make a long story short, due to a lack of holsters, I’ll be taking my 226 loaded with BB Outdoorsman 147 +P hardcast as my carry gun for an upcoming week long trip to Alaska. I proofed the loads with the guns a little later than I wanted, and every holster for the USP 45 is special order. I am happy that I was able to get a Kenai Chest rig for my P226 (old Cerakote version of the Scorpion). I held off ordering holsters as I wanted to vet the rounds and my strong hand (post carpal tunnel surgery). I had decided on a primary and secondary preparation strategy, hence why I had the USP ready with the 226 as the backup. By the time I was able to get on the range and run everything to my satisfaction, it was too late to source decent holsters for the USP 45. The USP was a relatively recent purchase as primary gun for this trip (selected over a G20 and Model 29 for reasons discussed in this thread). I’m not distraught; I have multiple thousands of rounds through this P226 and magazines. The gun is solid, shoots straight, and is relatively quick for me. The night sights will be replaced soon as half-life fade is setting in, but are fine for now and I like stock sig irons. As has been pointed out in this thread, this gun’s purpose is not hunting, it’s to give me a fighting chance in an emergency. Reliability, penetration, and shootability were my priorities. I considered my Gen5 G17 or G34 but chose the 226 as I preferred the DA/SA gun for this purpose, reliability is a wash between them and I’ve been working with the 226 more over the past few months. If I started with the G17 as my alternate and it had run fine with the BB ammo, I’d be as happy running it. In hindsight, preferring the Glock might have made sense since I was worried about hand strength after the surgery. As it is, I haven't had any issues running a double action trigger since I've gotten back on the gun. At a certain point though, one has to make the call on the best of the equipment they have at hand and that's where I'm at(I've seen guys in other professions go into analysis paralysis of their gear when what they needed to do was lace up their boots and get moving). My thanks to everyone who's built this mega thread and the experience they've shared, notably GJM.

PS: Yes, first post. I've been a Ninja watcher for years...I had a life;)

How many rounds of the BB hardcast do you have through the 226?

[1More]

How many rounds of the BB hardcast do you have through the 226?

Probably not enough to make the internet happy. That said, I made a judgment call based on this gun, how it runs in general and with similar ammunition, Buffalo Bore’s reliability, and functional indicators shooting with the lot of ammo on hand. That gave me an idea of ‘x’ number of rounds that would indicate it was okay to rely on this ammunition and gun. I don’t know anyone else’s gun, mags, or ammo lots so I don’t want to say 500, 5000, or any other number. I will end by saying it didn’t take much to realize this was a good combination because I had a lot of time on this specific gun itself. If this was a ‘new to me’ gun, ‘x’ would have been a lot more than it was.

[GJM]

Unfortunately, there are a bunch of Alaskans that subscribe to fill the magazine and use wherever is left in the box to test reliability!

[rjohnson4405]

To add another data point, going on a hike to Colorado and unlikely to have a bear problem, but that isn't stopping me.

Bought some Buffalo Bore 45 Super 230 grain 1100fps flat points which ran great in HK45C. Also bought their 45 ACP +P Woodsman 255 grain ammo as backup in case the super didn't work, but I'll be carrying 19 rounds of the 45 Super when I go up the mountain.

I shot 20 rounds of the 45 Super in 4 different magazines. All functioned and the slide held open on the last round. So, obviously not a lot, but I don' think I'm likely to get more chances than that.

[Nick B]

So, to make a long story short, due to a lack of holsters, I’ll be taking my 226 loaded with BB Outdoorsman 147 +P hardcast as my carry gun for an upcoming week long trip to Alaska. I proofed the loads with the guns a little later than I wanted, and every holster for the USP 45 is special order. I am happy that I was able to get a Kenai Chest rig for my P226 (old Cerakote version of the Scorpion). I held off ordering holsters as I wanted to vet the rounds and my strong hand (post carpal tunnel surgery). I had decided on a primary and secondary preparation strategy, hence why I had the USP ready with the 226 as the backup. By the time I was able to get on the range and run everything to my satisfaction, it was too late to source decent holsters for the USP 45. The USP was a relatively recent purchase as primary gun for this trip (selected over a G20 and Model 29 for reasons discussed in this thread). I’m not distraught; I have multiple thousands of rounds through this P226 and magazines. The gun is solid, shoots straight, and is relatively quick for me. The night sights will be replaced soon as half-life fade is setting in, but are fine for now and I like stock sig irons. As has been pointed out in this thread, this gun’s purpose is not hunting, it’s to give me a fighting chance in an emergency. Reliability, penetration, and shootability were my priorities. I considered my Gen5 G17 or G34 but chose the 226 as I preferred the DA/SA gun for this purpose, reliability is a wash between them and I’ve been working with the 226 more over the past few months. If I started with the G17 as my alternate and it had run fine with the BB ammo, I’d be as happy running it. In hindsight, preferring the Glock might have made sense since I was worried about hand strength after the surgery. As it is, I haven't had any issues running a double action trigger since I've gotten back on the gun. At a certain point though, one has to make the call on the best of the equipment they have at hand and that's where I'm at(I've seen guys in other professions go into analysis paralysis of their gear when what they needed to do was lace up their boots and get moving). My thanks to everyone who's built this mega thread and the experience they've shared, notably GJM.

PS: Yes, first post. I've been a Ninja watcher for years...I had a life;)
Not sure when you are leaving on your trip but wanted to say that Midway has in stock a Galco Fletch belt holster for the USP45.

[1More]

Not sure when you are leaving on your trip but wanted to say that Midway has in stock a Galco Fletch belt holster for the USP45.

Thanks, that’s a good catch. That said, I’m already in Alaska living with my choices on and the USP is sleeping soundly back home. I’ll look at the Galco in addition to a couple of other options. Somewhat on topic, does anyone have experience with the light rail adapters for the USP 45? Favorable or negative impressions? I haven’t used them, but my working thesis is they wouldn’t hold up or be good from a reliability perspective with standard or +p ammo.

[1slow]

GG&G pictinny light rail adapter has kept zero with Surefire X400 on USPT 45.

[entropy]

The GG&G is the way to go. I have had one on a USPc for over 10 years. Very solid.

Somewhere in the galactic expanse of this great thread, there is some holster discussion. You may want to contact Dale Fricke as he set me up with an exact kydex rig that GJM discussed here. Also, since you’re operating in “the days of equipment gone by” you may want to prowl flea-bay. In addition to the Fricke rig, I wanted a retention type holster as well. I ended up finding a Safariland (6280?...their number system is comparable to the S&W auto system!) for fairly cheap there. None of the HK stuff is “in vogue” anymore and obviously requires shopping skills.

I’ve been busy with work past few months and away from the woods and critters, but this thread is always a welcome read.

[entropy]

Title says all. Wondering if anyone has done loadwork here on it.

Will be for USP 45FS.

Thanks

[CDH]

Have never loaded any but have shot plenty of the factory loads. All shot from USP45 and all shot at pigs. That is one more pig killing bullet. Not sure what your intended use is but the factory setup seems real good.

[GJM]

Have never loaded any but have shot plenty of the factory loads. All shot from USP45 and all shot at pigs. That is one more pig killing bullet. Not sure what your intended use is but the factory setup seems real good.

Would love to hear more about your experiences with the Lehigh and USP, either here or in the main USP field pistol thread.

[okie john]

Would love to hear more about your experiences with the Lehigh and USP, either here or in the main USP field pistol thread.

This.


Okie John

[entropy]

The bullets themselves are available, and I have several different suggested powders to try. It should be a fairly straight forward, quick process. I’m not developing a precision rifle load. For the same price as two 20rd factory boxes, I can load approximately 100 of my own. It’s a no brainer.


Well...speaking of “no brain”....

It seems the item I was looking at as “in stock” at Graf’s was the wrong bullet. The in stock item is .452. Not what I need...

[CDH]

USP field pistol thread is what solidified my decision on this pistol. Serves a niche role for me. We do “run and gun” with feral pigs. What may start out on dirt road or 4-wheeler path can instantly turn into a chase through thick swamp. Most of this occurs at night. Long guns are cumbersome in this scenario. That drove me towards chest mounted pistol. Caliber selection and shootability considerations led to a 45 Super capable handgun. At that point the USP was the clear winner for me as I have many many rounds through other HK pistols. Lucked up and traded into an almost new USP45. Vetted it with ball and hst ammo. Ran across the Underwood/Lehigh round and gave it a try. It’s accurate. First try on a pig was impressive. On the run front right shoulder head hit the dirt squealed once and blood squirting out the hole. Never moved again. Shot from about 25 yds. This is a fairly common scenario. Results have varied from DRT to ran 15-20yds. All squeal and BLEED!! My cohorts in crime still carry AR variants but they don’t perform any better with the exception of magazine capacity.

Sports a streamlight wml and rides in a hill people chest bag.

For the purpose it serves I cannot imagine a better solution.

I’ve never tried 45 Super in it because the extreme penetrator round has proven very capable of disposing of pigs.

[03RN]

I always figured the extreme penetrators run lighter than standard weight.

Eg, 160-180 for .45.

With the same weight is there much performance difference with 200gr swc?

[GJM]

Who can mill a USP FS for an Acro?

[Baldanders]

Would love to hear more about your experiences with the Lehigh and USP, either here or in the main USP field pistol thread.

I've been wanting to hear about the performance of the Lehigh solids in hunting applications for a while.

Another +1 to the hive mind chorus.

[Baldanders]

With the same weight is there much performance difference with 200gr swc?

And there's the question on my mind as well, do the various Leigh designs offer clear advantages over existing SWC/WC designs?

[entropy]

Who can mill a USP FS for an Acro?

My understanding is that is is a difficult proposition. Issue is the thickness of the slide at the area of the firing pin safety plunger. Once the plunger rises to the position that allows moment of the firing pin, there is little clearance to the top surface of the slide. If sufficient material was removed from the top of the slide to mount a RDS, the plunger “raceway” would be exposed.

I did a bit of research back when I first got mine on this, and ended up trying a MGW plate that simply fit the rear sight dovetail and sat on the upper slide surface. A bit cumbersome, took away the rear sight, and in the end I scrapped the whole idea.

Maybe someone has stepped in with a solution. I’d be interested too. In the meantime, I’m just rocking the Meps.

[OlongJohnson]

I'd be interested in learning if something could be done to work with the USP 45 Expert's inset sight milling. Or maybe just use it as a paradigm for other milling.

[entropy]

Back to loading...

Looking at Cutting Edge monolithic solids...

Anyone mess with these?

[GJM]

What would you all think of moving these posts to the main USP thread, so we don't lose this information?

[Super77]

What would you all think of moving these posts to the main USP thread, so we don't lose this information?

Do it

[entropy]

I’m fine with moving them.

FWIW, after doing some basic research, I’m going to call Cutting Edge in the morning, talk to tech, and most likely order a few boxes up to experiment with. They appear to have a better rep that the Lehigh’s do. I need to run a few questions past them on poly rifling before I drop my cc with an order.

They also have some nice looking ideas for .300BO too...

[OlongJohnson]

I’m fine with moving them.

FWIW, after doing some basic research, I’m going to call Cutting Edge in the morning, talk to tech, and most likely order a few boxes up to experiment with. They appear to have a better rep that the Lehigh’s do. I need to run a few questions past them on poly rifling before I drop my cc with an order.

They also have some nice looking ideas for .300BO too...

If I recall, George changed from truncated cone flat points to Lehigh based on worries about absolute reliability of feeding. Although my recollection is he had no issues with feeding, it was only a worry and a theoretical reduction of risk due to the more standard profile of the Lehigh. The TC bullets have a wider flat point, which should be great for terminal effect, but goes in the wrong direction on the feeding reliability question. Would definitely use in a revolver.

[entropy]

I will talk to tech and see what they say. I can see feeding being more of an issue in 1911 platforms.

[CakeEater]

Who can mill a USP FS for an Acro?

George, looks like the guys in the P30 with RDS/PMO thread answered your question. I believe L&M (Mark) was the previously recommended shop but they’re out of business. Wright Armory has three options for the USP/P30/P2000 ranging from $395 to $575.

https://wrightarmory.com/pistol/

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?38874-P30-with-RDS-PMO

[MickAK]

Although my recollection is he had no issues with feeding, it was only a worry and a theoretical reduction of risk due to the more standard profile of the Lehigh. The TC bullets have a wider flat point, which should be great for terminal effect, but goes in the wrong direction on the feeding reliability question. Would definitely use in a revolver.

Multiple stoppages in his wife's G29 was what prompted the switch I believe. It caused me a good bit of concern as that was what my magazine was loaded with at the time. I think there's a thread in the ammunition subforum about it but it was a few years ago.

The Lehigh design seems to be inherently more reliable than any other choice and testing as well as anecdotes from others seem to bear that out. Reading reports on successful and unsuccessful use of field pistols seem to indicate that getting the pistol out and putting bullets in the bear trumps all other concerns. There's limited data of course, but that's what it shows.

I've noticed that many of the reports of stoppages with hot TC bullets come from more skilled shooters. Whether better recoil control is a factor or they just do more testing I don't know.

[GJM]

I tried wide meplat loads from a number of the boutique loaders, including Buffalo Bore, Underwood, and Corbon, and couldn’t get them to run reliably in multiple copies of the Glock 20, 29, 22 with a KKM barrel, and third Gen S&W 10mm autos. I was able to make Buffalo Bore FMJ is Super run in USP and HK45C pistols. The Underwood Lehigh has run in every pistol I have tried in 9, 40, 10, 45 and 45 Super. The combination of a FMJ bullet profile and modest velocities seems to be the ticket to reliability.

[GJM]

I am leaning towards sending Wright Armory a USP FS 45 slide for an Acro and BUIS installation. Thinking about that, I brought a USP FS to the range today for some refam. First, I shot the Underwood Lehigh Penetrator ammo at about 20 yards to verify zero. Zero was fine, although I had forgot the Trijicon HD sights are closer to drive the dot than tip of the front sight.

75601

We had set up an array for our regular practice, and I decided to shoot it with the USP FS with the Penetrator ammo, and then repeat with a Glock 45 with an optic, to compare performance. He is a short video with the two runs, starting with the USP. You can see the Penetrator ammo is a bit blasty.

Here is


https://youtu.be/_yC2sSPFkdg

Accuracy was comparable between the two, but my Glock run was about 4 seconds and my USP run was about 5.75 seconds or about .25 per shot. Some of that is irons vs an optic, but most of it is the HK trigger and the recoil of the Super ammo. Something I think about is that bear defense is not a match, and the marksmanship challenge gets easier with every shot.

[GJM]

Before I forget, I have a Safariland 6004 SLS holster for an HK45 with an X series light, and the USP without a light fits in there perfectly.

75602

[GJM]

A screenshot from the USP with the Super penetration ammo.

75604

[11B10]

No, the original 9/40 USP mags are all plastic.



Please forgive my late arrival here, accompanied by my ever - present thread drift. After reading the previous posts, I do have a semi-relevant question. I have owned 2 H&K P30SK's and currently own a VP9SK that was purchased in March 2021 and have never seen an H&K plastic magazine. Is it just the USP's that have plastic magazines?

[CakeEater]

Please forgive my late arrival here, accompanied by my ever - present thread drift. After reading the previous posts, I do have a semi-relevant question. I have owned 2 H&K P30SK's and currently own a VP9SK that was purchased in March 2021 and have never seen an H&K plastic magazine. Is it just the USP's that have plastic magazines?

I believe it was addressed in another thread but 9mm and 40SW USPs came with plastic mags (w/metal inserts) and the USP45 & 45c came with metal mags.

[MickAK]

A screenshot from the USP with the Super penetration ammo.

75604

I like that muzzle flash. I'd like to know more about incidents where a warning shot provoked a charge. I have a theory that muzzle flash helps avoid that. I haven't seen a warning shot provoke a charge but I've seen them have no effect or send the bear running in the wrong direction entirely.

[GJM]

I like that muzzle flash. I'd like to know more about incidents where a warning shot provoked a charge. I have a theory that muzzle flash helps avoid that. I haven't seen a warning shot provoke a charge but I've seen them have no effect or send the bear running in the wrong direction entirely.

I had a PH in Zimbabwe that was convinced the muzzle blast from a full auto FN FAL had turned charging leopards.

[HCM]

Please forgive my late arrival here, accompanied by my ever - present thread drift. After reading the previous posts, I do have a semi-relevant question. I have owned 2 H&K P30SK's and currently own a VP9SK that was purchased in March 2021 and have never seen an H&K plastic magazine. Is it just the USP's that have plastic magazines?

Its just the original USP Full size in 9&40. They came with polymer magazines. Those two models continue to use the polymer mags. They are all polymer, not metal lined as mentioned above. You can literally see it in the German translucent USP mags.

All subsequent HK polymer pistols including the USP 45 AND USP Compact use metal magazines.

Glock started with all polymer mags then went to metal lined. I belive partial metal lined first then the fully metal lined.

[OlongJohnson]

There is an optional "Jet Funnel" mag for the USP9 FS that is metal lined polymer. On HKPro, they are discussed as the most durable/reliable/bombproof HK mags ever made, which would be saying something if true.

[1slow]

In the HK USP9mm mag I just took apart, the feed lips and the back part and sides of the inside of the mag have metal lining.

I believe this to be the case with the .40 as well.

My understanding is that the translucent white mags do not have as much metal reinforcement and are not recommended for duty.

[HCM]

I had a PH in Zimbabwe that was convinced the muzzle blast from a full auto FN FAL had turned charging leopards.

https://www.sffaudio.com/mindwebs-the-gun-without-a-bang-by-robert-sheckley/comment-page-1/

[HCM]

In the HK USP9mm mag I just took apart, the feed lips and the back part and sides of the inside of the mag have metal lining.

I believe this to be the case with the .40 as well.

My understanding is that the translucent white mags do not have as much metal reinforcement and are not recommended for duty.

That may be a change. The last full size USP 40 I had was around the time if the 94 AWB.

If it was a successful design HK wouldn’t have gone all metal in subsequent designs.

[1slow]

I have several full size USP 45s with Lem/Match triggers. All were bought used and are in good shape.

Recently 1 USP 45 has been giving me light primer strikes with some Hungarian Brass case 230gr JHP. As in 10 rounds out of a 100 rounds.
I bought a bunch for practice @ $10.99 a box before the ammo scare. It has been accurate and reliable in 6+ other HK USP 45s.

Other ammo has worked fine in the USP45 that light strikes the Hungarian ammo.

I suspect firing pin, either dirt in the channel , not enough protrusion or mainspring is weak.


To trouble shoot I will swap upper and lower with a USP 45 that does not have problems.

If the light primer strike upper works on a known good pistol lower, I would think the problem is in the light primer strike lower. Weak mainspring maybe.

If the light primer strike lower works on a known good pistol upper, I would think the problem is in the light primer strike upper. Maybe firing pin, either dirt in the channel , not enough protrusion.

Am I missing something ?

Thanks.

[entropy]

Depending on age and serial number, could be fractured firing pin.

Easy enough to remove and check when you clean the channel.

What’s the date code?

[1slow]

AD (2003) is the date code.
Thanks.

[entropy]

Yep. Modified pins around 2005-on. You may want to check it. The slide is straight forward to disassemble. Roll pins. Lots of online vids to guide.

[1slow]

Thanks, will get pins. I may change out all my pre 2005 as a precaution, or is this a good idea ?

[Bergeron]

I broke a firing pin on a pre-2005 USP9F. I'd go ahead and get latest firing pins.

[1slow]

Do I need to change just the firing pin or all of these, redesigned firing pin, firing pin block, and firing pin block spring ?


• 2005 (AF): Redesigned firing pin, firing pin block, and firing pin block spring

Thanks.

--------------------------------------
Changes made to the USP series over the years:
• 1993 (KD): Original USP .40 and 9mm. USP40 came out first
• 1994 (KE): Reduced the slide weight by 1.1 oz
• 1994-95 (KE-KF): Changed to a polygonal rifled barrel (Prior barrels were standard land and groove)
• 1994-95 (KE-KF): Changed trigger transfer bar
• 1994-95 (KE-KF): Changed recoil guide rod to a "captured spring version"
• 1995 (KF): Changed trigger mechanism
• 1995 (KF): Changed frame to allow new-design hammer axle and LEM conversion
• 1995 (KF): Changed hammer strut
• 1995 (KF): Changed one-piece catch to two-piece catch
• 1995-96 (KF-KG): Added rubber spur to hammer
• 1995-96 (KF-KG): Changed angle on slide lock
• 2000 (AA): Added locking feature to hammer strut support (lanyard safety)
• 2001 (AB): Converted captive recoil spring retainer from c-clip to machined end on USP Compacts (not USPf)
• 2005 (AF): Redesigned firing pin, firing pin block, and firing pin block spring
• 2005 (AF): Changed to longer catch and new hammer with the cut-out for the new catch
--------------------------------------------------

[entropy]

I believe it’s the block, the pin, and the spring. The issue was the original firing pin had a machined cutout for the firing pin block that had 90deg angles cut on it. You’d think that superior German engineering brain would have caught that potential fail point...🤷*♂️. New pin has a radius cut and a matching block along with a new spring. Thanks for jogging the memory...

It’s a pretty simple fix. FWIW, I have not had another breakage since 2006 in any USP variant, and I have put thousands and thousands (more like tens of thousands) of rounds thru 3 different guns.

[1slow]

Thanks.

I ordered all 3 parts: FP, FPB, and FPBS.

I also ordered a new style hammer strut. See below reference.
-----------------------------
Some more LEM on pre AF USP data:
FROM HKPRO FORUM
LEM ON PRE 2005 USP PISTOLS

Your hammer strut is different from the 1994 era, get a current version. It can cause some irregular firing issues mixing an up to date LEM kit with the early hammer strut.
Bill

[MickAK]

https://www.alaskapublic.org/2021/09/01/sitka-bear-attack-survivor-credits-partners-quick-shot-with-saving-his-life/

This is a pretty good example of why a smaller caliber pistol in a chest rig beats a slung shotgun.

[entropy]

...some testicular fortitude goin’ on right there....

[GJM]

https://www.alaskapublic.org/2021/09/01/sitka-bear-attack-survivor-credits-partners-quick-shot-with-saving-his-life/

This is a pretty good example of why a smaller caliber pistol in a chest rig beats a slung shotgun.

Great outcome! I am in favor of a shotgun in your hands and a pistol on your person. :p

[MickAK]

Great outcome! I am in favor of a shotgun in your hands and a pistol on your person. :p

I would have a really tough time hiking along a salmon stream on Chichagof with a shotgun in my hands, but it would certainly make me feel better if I could. That's pretty thick country.

[OlongJohnson]

It's not USP ammo, but Bud's has Brenneke KOs back in stock as of today:

https://www.budsgunshop.com/product_info.php?products_id=713073185

[MGW]

I was talking to a friend yesterday about field guns. The best option I could come up with after considering everything is an HK45C. It carries easy, is super reliable, lots of ammo options, built like a tank, won’t rust easily. My only complaints the DA trigger isn’t that great and the safety is less than optimal for SAO carry. I think I’m going to find another one and go down the LEM rabbit hole again.

[GJM]

I was talking to a friend yesterday about field guns. The best option I could come up with after considering everything is an HK45C. It carries easy, is super reliable, lots of ammo options, built like a tank, won’t rust easily. My only complaints the DA trigger isn’t that great and the safety is less than optimal for SAO carry. I think I’m going to find another one and go down the LEM rabbit hole again.

Between my wife and I, I think we have eight, so obviously we like them. All have been converted to LEM. We use the Underwood Lehigh 45+P or 45 Super Penetrator load in them, or Hornady Critical Duty for a soft point load. I feel like the ten round magazines make them easier to shoot well, at the cost of being less concealable. They fit into P30 ALS and most other holsters. With a threaded barrel, you can get more velocity, while staying pretty compact in size.

[GJM]

After a summer of wandering around bears in he west and Alaska, I wanted to update some equipment notes and also provide my latest thoughts on the field pistol concept.

First, here is what I want a field pistol to be capable of doing. It should work for general defense on the way to the trail. It should give you a reasonable ability to deter an attack by a bear, wolf or other animal in the field. Ideally, it would allow you to reach out and shoot a coyote sized target to 100 yards or a little more. It should work in inclement weather, and be conducive to carry in concealed and open holsters. Think AIWB, Safariland ALS, Kenai chest rig, Hill People chest pack. It should be able to launch a bullet that has a reasonable chance of penetrating the skull of a bear. More capacity is a plus.

Here is how I plan to use a field pistol in the event of a bear attack. Assuming time available, shot one is a warning shot, on the theory that a shot that turns an animal is your most effective shot. Shot two is anywhere center of bear, indicating to the bear that you are not an easy target, and that you have the ability to inflict pain. Assuming shots one and two are ineffective, I would plan to try to penetrate the brain. I value reliability the most, since a stoppage takes away your options. After reliability, being able to quickly place an accurate shot and having something penetrative are both important. Fortunately most attacks stop before you have to penetrate the brain, which is why handguns work so well in bear attacks.

Now some equipment notes. I recently had my Gen 4 Glock 20 at the range. It shoots .40 S&W power level 10mm loads like 180/200 XTP reliably. However, shooting Underwood Lehigh Penetrator, I had a stoppage in my first 15 rounds, where the slide locked back with cartridges in the magazine. This is literally the first Underwood Lehigh stoppage I have had in any platform, in any caliber. Every time I give Glock 10mm pistols another try, I am disappointed, and I think I am going to make them all go down the road.

I recently shot two HK45C pistols with .45 Super Underwood Lehigh Penetrator 45 Super ammo and Hornady Critical Duty. As always, they just run. However, I find the HK45C significantly harder to shoot than the USP FS 45 with Super ammo. The USP FS, in the form of the match hybrid LEM trigger, is the best trigger I have felt in any HK hammer gun. One thing I have noticed is that the magazines in the USP FS 45 are shorter front to back than the HK45C. With Hornady Critical Duty +P ammo in the USP FS, the cartridges seem a bit long, and by hand I worry that their length could cause a reliability issue. Winchester 230 +P Ranger, for example, is not as long and seems fine. TH Underwood Lehigh also also good.

I understand that bear defense is not a match, and that the shooting gets easier with every shot. However, I spend so much time training with a red dot, I am just more comfortable with a dot. I hope to explore Wright Armory installing an Acro on a USP FS after Default gets his latest project completed by them. For now, I have been carrying a Glock 19 with an Acro and Penetrator loads, with the USP FS and iron sights as plan B. I also plan to try a Gen 5 23 MOS with an Acro and Penetrator ammo, to evaluate how that does.

Best practice is always a semi auto shotgun in your hands h Brenneke slugs. The handgun backs up the shotgun.

[Lester Polfus]

Now some equipment notes. I recently had my Gen 4 Glock 20 at the range. It shoots .40 S&W power level 10mm loads like 180/200 XTP reliably. However, shooting Underwood Lehigh Penetrator, I had a stoppage in my first 15 rounds, where the slide locked back with cartridges in the magazine. This is literally the first Underwood Lehigh stoppage I have had in any platform, in any caliber. Every time I give Glock 10mm pistols another try, I am disappointed, and I think I am going to make them all go down the road.



For me, the Glock 20 is like the girl that looks great and sounds great on paper, that I've dated and broken up with three times, and a couple of my buddies dated with similar disastrous endings.

At some point I had to just tell myself "it isn't going to be different if I try it again."

[Clusterfrack]

GJM, adding a 24# recoil spring, heavy mag springs, and mag shims is the only way I've been able to eliminate malfunctions with full power loads of any bullet profile in my G20.

[MickAK]

Now some equipment notes. I recently had my Gen 4 Glock 20 at the range. It shoots .40 S&W power level 10mm loads like 180/200 XTP reliably. However, shooting Underwood Lehigh Penetrator, I had a stoppage in my first 15 rounds, where the slide locked back with cartridges in the magazine. This is literally the first Underwood Lehigh stoppage I have had in any platform, in any caliber.

Out of curiosity did that particular mag run reliably with other ammo or did you get around to that?

[GJM]

Out of curiosity did that particular mag run reliably with other ammo or did you get around to that?

Yes it did.

[fatdog]

....It should be able to launch a bullet that has a reasonable chance of penetrating the skull of a bear. More capacity is a plus......value reliability the most, since a stoppage takes away your options. After reliability, being able to quickly place an accurate shot and having something penetrative are both important. .....For now, I have been carrying a Glock 19 with an Acro and Penetrator loads, with the USP FS and iron sights as plan B....... I also plan to try a Gen 5 23 MOS with an Acro and Penetrator ammo, to evaluate how that does.

I will follow your 23.5 experiments with great interest since that gun is already in my safe.

Back about post 1147 in this thread I chronicled my struggle with speed and accuracy tying to use the .45 Super Leigh's in my USP45. I lost confidence that it was the right gun for me on that Rocky Mtn. wilderness trip in 2019.

Ended up running my USP/c in .357 Sig for the jaunt, with the Underwood version of the penetrators in .357 Sig. Turned out I was able to shoot much better groups at speed (see 1168). Gained some confidence in reliability after running 120 rounds of it through the gun without any problems. I found the Underwood fodder to be pushing that 125gr Lehigh penetrator at about 1425fps out of that USP/c which must certainly be good enough on that penetration count.

I did not get to head West this year but hope to next year. I dumped my USP’s and went back to mostly shooting Glocks or 1911’s. I am thinking my Glock 23.5 or my Glock 32.4 will be the companion depending on how the Underwood loading of the Lehigh penetrators preform in those guns wrt reliability and accuracy.

[fatdog]

...Now some equipment notes. I recently had my Gen 4 Glock 20 at the range. ...had a stoppage in my first 15 rounds, ....I am disappointed, and I think I am going to make them all go down the road.

This is also disappointing but not surprising based on the comments in the past about the 10mm Glocks from you, Clusterfrack, and others here. I think over the winter I am inclined to test a G21 with the Lehigh Penetrators in .45 ACP +P guise and see what reliablity/accuracy that produces since I am back to being a Glock type person (other than range toys or competition guns) for all things hicap in all calibers at the moment.

[GJM]

This is also disappointing but not surprising based on the comments in the past about the 10mm Glocks from you, Clusterfrack, and others here. I think over the winter I am inclined to test a G21 with the Lehigh Penetrators in .45 ACP +P guise and see what reliablity/accuracy that produces since I am back to being a Glock type person (other than range toys or competition guns) for all things hicap in all calibers at the moment.

Here are some possible choices:

76648

The 45 +P seems a bit light in velocity for penetrating a skull — 1,200 or 1,250 maybe better?

[JonInWA]

I went with your recommendation for .40; the 140 gr Underwood Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator; however, in .45 ACP, I went with the 120 gr Xtreme Defender @ 1420 fps. Comments (Here in the Pacific NW, my concern is black bear/mountain lion/cougar)?

Best, Jon

[GJM]

I went with your recommendation for .40; the 140 gr Underwood Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator; however, in .45 ACP, I went with the 120 gr Xtreme Defender @ 1420 fps. Comments (Here in the Pacific NW, my concern is black bear/mountain lion/cougar)?

Best, Jon

I ain’t Doc, but I would be inclined to consider this load for your use:

https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/handgun/45-auto-p-220-gr-flexlock-critical-duty#!/

[BobM]

Here are some possible choices:

76648

The 45 +P seems a bit light in velocity for penetrating a skull — 1,200 or 1,250 maybe better?

I thought you mentioned that in the lower 48 that the 45 +P would be sufficient? I thought that then might allow the use of a non HK 45 pistol. If you think the 40 is good enough for the West with Underwood ammo, that would keep me from having to buy another pistol. Next year I hope to be traveling out that way.

[JonInWA]

I ain’t Doc, but I would be inclined to consider this load for your use:

https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/handgun/45-auto-p-220-gr-flexlock-critical-duty#!/

Thanks, George. Just happen to have some already loaded up in some of my G21 magazines, as it's an approved duty round (I use Speer Gold Dot 230 gr and Remington Golden Saber 230 gr as well).

Insight/recommendation appreciated.

Best, Jon

[GJM]

I thought you mentioned that in the lower 48 that the 45 +P would be sufficient? I thought that then might allow the use of a non HK 45 pistol. If you think the 40 is good enough for the West with Underwood ammo, that would keep me from having to buy another pistol. Next year I hope to be traveling out that way.

My opinions are just that, and should be considered informed speculation at best. I have shot grizzly bears with .375 H&H, .338 WM and .45-70, and not with handguns. I have only shot caribou, deer and hogs with handguns.

I would pick the handgun that you believe is reliable and that you shoot well. If that was a 45 that you loaded with +P, no problem. If I had a vetted pistol that shot Penetrator ammo in the 1,200-1,250 fps range, that would make me even happier. I prefer a red dot, and a MOS solution makes that easy. .40 seems marginally better than 9 in the field pistol role, but I want to see how my performance is with .40, before I decide.

[MGW]

GJM I haven’t had time to reread this thread. What are your thoughts on the USP45c in the same role? I like the texture and trigger on the USP line a lot better but not sure about reliability with hotter 45 rounds.

[GJM]

GJM I haven’t had time to reread this thread. What are your thoughts on the USP45c in the same role? I like the texture and trigger on the USP line a lot better but not sure about reliability with hotter 45 rounds.

The USP c was not reliable with Super, but the HK45C was.

[SwampDweller]

The USP c was not reliable with Super, but the HK45C was.

Has the Glock 23 Gen 5 MOS retired your USP 45s from carry?

[Lost River]

I just got my USP 45 FS back from the US factory where they converted it to a hybrid match LEM configuration, and did some other things. The parts were not bad but OOOFFF!!!

They charged me $160 an hour to swap the parts out :eek:

Note to self: Buy the parts and swap them out myself! F Me!

I don't mind paying a bit more for genuine HK springs and what not, buy sheeesh that labor bill!

I should be an HK mechanic.


On a brighter note,

The match LEM is AMAZING as compared to the old DA/SA trigger, which the DA was exceptionally heavy.

I am very excited to put the new trigger through its paces.

[entropy]

You’re gonna love it!

[TheNewbie]

Would you all feel comfortable carrying a Match Lem as “self defense” gun? Either with or without the safety.


I’ve shot plenty of rounds through HKs but never a match LEM.

[Default.mp3]

Would you all feel comfortable carrying a Match Lem as “self defense” gun? Either with or without the safety.


I’ve shot plenty of rounds through HKs but never a match LEM.I don't see why not, even without a safety. The theory behind the LEM is that it is trigger pull length and not weight that makes it safe.

[1slow]

Would you all feel comfortable carrying a Match Lem as “self defense” gun? Either with or without the safety.


I’ve shot plenty of rounds through HKs but never a match LEM.


Yes.
Past year + I have been CCW USP 45s LEM and Match/LEM and shooting them every week.
Read GJM and Darryl Bolke on LEM and Match/LEM.

[TheNewbie]

Yes.
Past year + I have been CCW USP 45s LEM and Match/LEM and shooting them every week.
Read GJM and Darryl Bolke on LEM and Match/LEM.

The LEM certainly is a great option safety wise. Almost too good for me in the V2 form.


Good that there is an even better LEM option that is safe for carry.

[GJM]

Has the Glock 23 Gen 5 MOS retired your USP 45s from carry?

Yes for most field carry because of the dot, but nothing on earth truly replaces a USP FS with Super ammo.

[SwampDweller]

Yes for most field carry because of the dot, but nothing on earth truly replaces a USP FS with Super ammo.
Isn't there a way to put a dot on the USP? Pretty sure I've seen it before

[M1Garand]

LGS is sending a dozen USPT slides to Rowland for conversion to 460. It will be interesting to see how they turn out, I may have to get one.

[paul105]

LGS is sending a dozen USPT slides to Rowland for conversion to 460. It will be interesting to see how they turn out, I may have to get one.

I have a USP FS that was converted to 460 Rowland by Rowland. Init ially I had function problems. Problem solved with a call to Rowland who provided extra power magazine springs. Would suggest you LGS order the mag springs with conversion order.

FWIW,

Paul

[NuJudge]

Isn't there a way to put a dot on the USP? Pretty sure I've seen it before

Two ways: I have seen slides that are milled, and you buy the appropriate plate for the dot footprint, or you buy a plate that replaces the rear sight.

https://hkparts.net/product/red-dot-pistol-mount-hk-usp-full-size-p18898.htm/

[GJM]

For me, the best part of the USP FS .45 is all the HK goodness, and changing mag springs and doing that level of modification (.460) makes it a different firearm.

[Lester Polfus]

For me, the best part of the USP FS .45 is all the HK goodness, and changing mag springs and doing that level of modification (.460) makes it a different firearm.

Concur. If I ever move away from the GP100 to another semi-auto as a field gun, I want it to be one where I take it out of the box, shove ammo in the bottom and make bullets come out of the front going really fast. I dicked around with springs and such with Glock 20s for way too long.

Ain't nobody got time for that.

[paul105]

Two ways: I have seen slides that are milled, and you buy the appropriate plate for the dot footprint, or you buy a plate that replaces the rear sight.

https://hkparts.net/product/red-dot-pistol-mount-hk-usp-full-size-p18898.htm/-


Here is an example of Trijicon's verison of plate that replaces the rear sight on a Glock M20. Makes for a decent mount but you loose open sight capability.
.
.
https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/large/old%20glock%20brake%20rmr%20cc%20othumbnail_IMG_56 192.jpg
.
FWIW,

Paul

[GJM]

Once you get a dot on the USP, the next problem is a suitable holster for field use that protects the optic.

[TheNewbie]

GJM

Outside of .45 Super, what is the reliability of the .45 USPc like compared to the HK45c and full-size USP?

[GJM]

GJM

Outside of .45 Super, what is the reliability of the .45 USPc like compared to the HK45c and full-size USP?

USP Compacts have been very reliable for me, on par with other HK pistols, except with Super loads.

[TC215]

GJM

Outside of .45 Super, what is the reliability of the .45 USPc like compared to the HK45c and full-size USP?

Not GJM, but the PD I worked for issued full-size USP .45’s and USPc .45’s for about 16 years. The compacts were just as reliable as their big brothers.

[TheNewbie]

Not GJM, but the PD I worked for issued full-size USP .45’s and USPc .45’s for about 16 years. The compacts were just as reliable as their big brothers.

What duty holsters did you guys use?


I was using the wayback machine today to stroll down memory lane of Safariland’s old website. Cool holsters and all, but I forgot how much better their site use to be. Not even a comparison in my opinion.

[TC215]

What duty holsters did you guys use?


I was using the wayback machine today to stroll down memory lane of Safariland’s old website. Cool holsters and all, but I forgot how much better their site use to be. Not even a comparison in my opinion.

Patrol primarily issued Gould & Goodrich Level III holsters. There were a few Safariland 070’s around. I ended up with a nylon 070 when I went to drug interdiction, and preferred it to the G&G.

Detectives got Serpa’s for the compacts. :rolleyes:

[TheNewbie]

Patrol primarily issued Gould & Goodrich Level III holsters. There were a few Safariland 070’s around. I ended up with a nylon 070 when I went to drug interdiction, and preferred it to the G&G.

Detectives got Serpa’s for the compacts. :rolleyes:

I carried a USP compact 9 in a serpa long ago. It’s one of my many stupid things that I had to do before I knew better. Oh I should have known better but I younger and hopefully dumber then than now. :p

[TheNewbie]

Does the USP compact have a smaller magazine release than that on the HK45 compact?


The large paddles on the P30 and HK45 almost seem too large to me. I think the P2000 also has a smaller release.

[jh9]

I think the P2000 also has a smaller release.

It does. The HK45c magazine release is larger. It's a common-ish part to be replaced. I did on both of my P2000s.

HK reuses a lot of parts between models. I don't know if the smaller P2000 release is also used by the USPc. I would assume so.

[entropy]

HK holsters are hard to find these days. I have a couple (one IWB, one OWB) that Mark Garrity made me back in the day, along with a couple of kydex rigs from CompTac. Along with those, a collection of various Hume, G&G and DeSantis offerings. The USP FS45 was an even more difficult nut to crack. When GJM “influenced” me to pick one up as a woods gun, I had a heck of a time. I was 20 years too late. Lol. I ended up with a Dale Fricke as well as an older Safariland model (# escapes me but has a hood) that I put QD attachments on for a Stormrider Gear belt. I picked up the Safariland off eBay.

It’s still my opinion that the USP/USPc pistols are some of the most robust, reliable semi autos ever made. They just run. And run...

[OlongJohnson]

Does the USP compact have a smaller magazine release than that on the HK45 compact?


The large paddles on the P30 and HK45 almost seem too large to me. I think the P2000 also has a smaller release.

HK45c release needs to be modified slightly when installed on the various USPs, or the tab that retains the mags won't seat all the way and you can get partial engagement of the notch on the mags that holds them in. This wears the notch on the mags and over time they can begin to drop while firing. Which will get you kilt in the streets. That said, it's an easy modification to do, and it's easy to check and verify that you have full engagement of the notch.

The paddles are just plastic, so it's easy to sand them down to whatever size and shape you want them to be. Much easier than sanding the smaller paddles on other guns to make them bigger.

[jh9]

That said, it's an easy modification to do, and it's easy to check and verify that you have full engagement of the notch.

I haven't experienced any issues (yet) with the 45c mag release in a P2000, and given the overall similarity between the 2 I assume no mod is needed... but I could stand to hear more. If nothing else in case I luck into one of the dozen or so USPc 9mms HK can be bothered to make this year.

[OlongJohnson]

I haven't experienced any issues (yet) with the 45c mag release in a P2000, and given the overall similarity between the 2 I assume no mod is needed... but I could stand to hear more. If nothing else in case I luck into one of the dozen or so USPc 9mms HK can be bothered to make this year.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?38090-Went-to-the-USP-45-for-CCW-carry-(after-seriously-considering-the-1911)-Anyone-else&p=929914&viewfull=1#post929914

[entropy]

I haven't experienced any issues (yet) with the 45c mag release in a P2000, and given the overall similarity between the 2 I assume no mod is needed... but I could stand to hear more. If nothing else in case I luck into one of the dozen or so USPc 9mms HK can be bothered to make this year.

86998

[backtrail540]

Want your usp to have wear an acro? Lander's can do that now...

https://www.landersweaponsystems.com/product-page/hk-usp-acro-mps-optic-cut

[GJM]

This afternoon, part way through our practice session out at our remote cabin, I shot a USPSA style array with the USP FS and Super ammo. I was into it, gripping and pressing with all I had, feeling a tad studly. I looked at my wife, and she said "gosh, if the bear charges I really hope you have the 19 with a dot and comp, loaded with penetrative ammo, because that USP is like a revolver." Deflated.

[YVK]

Put a comp on that USP.

[Oldherkpilot]

This afternoon, part way through our practice session out at our remote cabin, I shot a USPSA style array with the USP FS and Super ammo. I was into it, gripping and pressing with all I had, feeling a tad studly. I looked at my wife, and she said "gosh, if the bear charges I really hope you have the 19 with a dot and comp, loaded with penetrative ammo, because that USP is like a revolver." Deflated.

Remember this when it's time run or fight the bear. Oh, and make sure you can outrun the wife.😁

[fatdog]

It goes without saying, but I would take an accurate and fast 9mm Lehigh penetrator over a slower and less accurate Lehigh in Super any day, every day. I wouldn’t loose any sleep about carrying your 9mm in those mountains.

GJM's comment above took me back to summer 2019 in this thread (#1149) and how deflated I became about my inability to perform well with the USP 45 and the super ammo. I don't think any amount of practice would raise my performance to come close to what I can do with those very hot 9mm penetrators.

[Chuck Haggard]

GJM, adding a 24# recoil spring, heavy mag springs, and mag shims is the only way I've been able to eliminate malfunctions with full power loads of any bullet profile in my G20.

This is the type of drama we had with the gen 3 Glock 22s as duty guns. Excessive slide velocity is a thing.

[taadski]

Remember this when it's time run or fight the bear. Oh, and make sure you can outrun the wife.😁

Smart money is on Charlie all day long. 🤣

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

Is it true the USP 45 is the size of Desert Eagle? I found pic of Mark 23 which is about right on but the USP 45 is a good bit smaller right?

[OlongJohnson]

Is it true the USP 45 is the size of Desert Eagle? I found pic of Mark 23 which is about right on but the USP 45 is a good bit smaller right?

LOL No. It's for big hands, but nothing like the Deagle.

[Bergeron]

Want your usp to have wear an acro? Lander's can do that now...

https://www.landersweaponsystems.com/product-page/hk-usp-acro-mps-optic-cut

Wow, that is so good that it hurts to see. I have some vague awareness that the USP9 has a lightened slide as compared to the 40 and 45 variants that complicates optics mounting, but I didn't see anything at the link that was caliber-specific.

My new (to me) full rail Springfield is my current obsession, and I hope to fix it up into a 45 Super and perhaps eventually 460 Rowland field pistol. I reeallly want to see about a "big 9", and I've been casting about for the right platform, and this might be pushing me over the edge back into the USP.

I never should have let that first USP9 go.

[Oldherkpilot]

Smart money is on Charlie all day long. 🤣

As the man once said, "a man's got to know his limitations." 😊 Same guy had a decent bear gun, too.

[GJM]

I did have some field gun action yesterday, out at the cabin, when we looked out and a porcupine was waddling towards Astro, who was down on the lake shore watching for birds. I grabbed the 14 inch Benelli and went drag-assing out in my Crocs. The Brenneke may have been overkill.

91049

91050

A bear caused some mischief at a cabin a few hundred yards down the lake last night, so heads are in a swivel.

[Velo Dog]

9mm Glocks are common "field pistols" from Alaska to Africa.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?53403-Revolver-equivalent-of-the-quot-field-pistol-quot

This wins style points, however.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9gfAgsyaRw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9gfAgsyaRw

https://www.460rowland.com/shop/460-rowland-complete-guns/fnx-tactical/
92051

[Velo Dog]

Update: Handgun or Pistol Against Bear Attack: 93 cases, 97% Effective

https://www.ammoland.com/2020/03/update-handgun-or-pistol-against-bear-attack-93-cases-97-effective/#axzz7TBI0ctQW

"We have found one case where .45 Super pistol was used to defend against a bear. It was successful.

1. 6 Oct. 2017, Wyoming: .45 Super Stops Grizzly Bear Charge

The hunters jumped up and separated. The bear momentarily halted. Kelley fired a warning shot from his .45 Super. The bear moved away a little, behind some fire killed trees and brush, then came in again, fast. Kelly fired again, and the bear went down, rolled down slope and came to a halt, motionless."

http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2017/11/wy-45-super-stops-grizzly-bear-charge.html

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

Update: Handgun or Pistol Against Bear Attack: 93 cases, 97% Effective

https://www.ammoland.com/2020/03/update-handgun-or-pistol-against-bear-attack-93-cases-97-effective/#axzz7TBI0ctQW

"We have found one case where .45 Super pistol was used to defend against a bear. It was successful.

1. 6 Oct. 2017, Wyoming: .45 Super Stops Grizzly Bear Charge

The hunters jumped up and separated. The bear momentarily halted. Kelley fired a warning shot from his .45 Super. The bear moved away a little, behind some fire killed trees and brush, then came in again, fast. Kelly fired again, and the bear went down, rolled down slope and came to a halt, motionless."

http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2017/11/wy-45-super-stops-grizzly-bear-charge.html

Interesting excerpt... Read more: https://www.ammoland.com/2020/03/update-handgun-or-pistol-against-bear-attack-93-cases-97-effective/#ixzz7c2pBwYYF
Under Creative Commons License: Attribution (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0)
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He used a 9 mm semiautomatic pistol. Lewis said such a low-caliber gun ordinarily doesn’t pack enough punch to kill a bear. But Brenner loaded the pistol with full-metal-jacket bullets that penetrated to the bear’s vital organs, he said.

[entropy]

Finally sitting down and loading a spread of the Lehigh 200gr. I’ll do some redneck testing and report back.

[03RN]

Finally sitting down and loading a spread of the Lehigh 200gr. I’ll do some redneck testing and report back.

What's your plan? Velocity wise?

[entropy]

What's your plan? Velocity wise?

I had the load data copied from Lehigh. It’s somewhere on the bench. IIRC, it’s in the +P+ .45acp range. One of those projects I had on the short list, but ended up being buried.

[entropy]

Had to go to page 146 to resuscitate this one from the cryo tube...

Times change, life changes, priorities and needs change... Found myself recently in a two day defensive shotgun course. Never took a shotgun course. Learned a bunch. Learned about large bottles of ibuprofen too. Ran my USP .45 as secondary in the class. It had been collecting some dust in the safe along with the USPc .40 LEM that got me going down the HK road years ago. I forgot what a robust, solid platform it truly is. Cold hands, wet hands, pump shotgun cramped hands...it didn’t matter. It ran flawlessly and performed. It shot so soft I was actually looking forward to transition drills to give my paws a break. Time for a serious revisit.

[paul105]

Recently set mine up for suppressor use. Jarvis threaded barrel and suppressor height sights (HK adj night sights). Shown with short version of the the Rugged Obsidian 45.
.
https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/SK%20USP%20short%20NO%20SER%20NO%20suppressor%20th umbnail_IMG_62493.jpg
.
https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/HK%20USP%20new%20sight%20thumbnail_IMG_5665.jpg
.
The sights are a plus the suppressor is sort of a novelty (not used much).

Paul

[entropy]

Nice. Support stuff for them still a hunting expedition however. I wish Safariland would fire up the ALS mould for them...

[SwampDweller]

I am wanting to get Dawson sights for my USP 45's. I can't remember what sizes I got for my other pistols and can't find notes.

Does anyone have any recommendations on rear and front measurements for Dawson sights on a full size USP 45 that is a good mix between precision and sight acquisition?

[entropy]

I am wanting to get Dawson sights for my USP 45's. I can't remember what sizes I got for my other pistols and can't find notes.

Does anyone have any recommendations on rear and front measurements for Dawson sights on a full size USP 45 that is a good mix between precision and sight acquisition?

Not sure on the Dawson’s, but I have been tossing these around for mine.

https://lga-systems.com/products/fiber-optic-sights-for-h-k-usp

[SwampDweller]

Not sure on the Dawson’s, but I have been tossing these around for mine.

https://lga-systems.com/products/fiber-optic-sights-for-h-k-usp

Those dimensions seem about like what I'd be looking for in Dawsons. Slightly thinner front, slightly wider rear. Maybe I'll give these a shot.

[Coal Train]

Not sure on the Dawson’s, but I have been tossing these around for mine.

https://lga-systems.com/products/fiber-optic-sights-for-h-k-usp
I have been considering these as well. With a proper sight installation tool, is changing the sights on an HK USP as straightforward as changing Glock, Beretta, or any other dovetailed sights?

Or does it quickly become German?

[jeep45238]

I have been considering these as well. With a proper sight installation tool, is changing the sights on an HK USP as straightforward as changing Glock, Beretta, or any other dovetailed sights?

Or does it quickly become German?

Easier - it's not a tapered dovetail, so you can install/remove from either side.

[CakeEater]

Finally sitting down and loading a spread of the Lehigh 200gr. I’ll do some redneck testing and report back.

Entropy, how did testing go? I’m looking at a couple options for hogs, deer, and field carry. Thanks in advance!

[entropy]

Entropy, how did testing go? I’m looking at a couple options for hogs, deer, and field carry. Thanks in advance!


I’ll dig the results out, but they were less than “meh”. I was unable to get the accuracy I was looking for (comparable to HST or hardball) out of them. I used the recommended powder (can’t recall what it was) but never found the sweet spot.

[seagiant]

Hi,
Well decided to put in a new rear sight on the old War Horse.

Had a night sight on from 20 years ago and of course the "Lite", long gone.

Did not want more night sights just something plain and rugged and came across these MMC Sights.

Liked the concept as they are adjustable but seem rugged.

Sights were easy to order and shipped promptly with a hand written note from the company Owner.

I ordered the two white dots, but in use they are not really needed as the protective side Wings lead your eyes to the front sight.

Have not shot it yet but think I'm going to be happy!

https://www.sightsinc.com/

[ChknLivrNWsky]

Hey fellas,

I admit I didn't get a chance to read through all 100+ pages of this thread yet. I've been researching this whole field gun topic, and am looking to get a USP 45 for a hiking/bear gun.

Is there any reason NOT to get the USP 45 Tactical or USP 45 Expert over the standard USP 45?

I understand that the Tactical and Expert are a little more expensive, but I may have an opportunity to pick up one of the above for a similar price to what a plain USP 45 would cost.

From what I was able to find, they can still handle 45 Super. Any potential issues with the O-ring fitted barrels?

Thanks

[Artemas2]

Hey fellas,

I admit I didn't get a chance to read through all 100+ pages of this thread yet. I've been researching this whole field gun topic, and am looking to get a USP 45 for a hiking/bear gun.

Is there any reason NOT to get the USP 45 Tactical or USP 45 Expert over the standard USP 45?

I understand that the Tactical and Expert are a little more expensive, but I may have an opportunity to pick up one of the above for a similar price to what a plain USP 45 would cost.

From what I was able to find, they can still handle 45 Super. Any potential issues with the O-ring fitted barrels?

Thanks

following the answer with interest.

I have been watching various denominations of USP selling in the $600-$800 range for the last month wondering if I should grab one or not.

[CakeEater]

BLUF: Get the better deal if you can. Adding things later to make a Tactical doesn’t make financial sense if you can get it for the price of a “base” USP45.

The Tactical gets you a slightly longer barrel (if you don’t use a can/no problem), “better” sights, and a better trigger (potentially depending on when it was made).

I believe more experienced PF members WRT the Field Pistol will come along shortly. I’ve collected several USP45s, HK45s, and an Elite but if I could’ve picked up a Tactical or Expert for the same price, I would’ve absolutely pulled the trigger. I love them all and think you will as well. Worst case scenario, you’ll be able to unload the “deal” at a profit.



Hey fellas,

I admit I didn't get a chance to read through all 100+ pages of this thread yet. I've been researching this whole field gun topic, and am looking to get a USP 45 for a hiking/bear gun.

Is there any reason NOT to get the USP 45 Tactical or USP 45 Expert over the standard USP 45?

I understand that the Tactical and Expert are a little more expensive, but I may have an opportunity to pick up one of the above for a similar price to what a plain USP 45 would cost.

From what I was able to find, they can still handle 45 Super. Any potential issues with the O-ring fitted barrels?

Thanks

[entropy]

Interesting and timely as I’ve chucked the idea of picking up a Tisas 1911 for carry and am back on the HK wagon again. My opinion to your question: although the Expert and Match are factory tweaked a bit, you likely won’t be able to see the difference in performance over the standard USP 45FS. Mine is more accurate than I’m able to shoot. Holsters and support gear are difficult enough to come by for the standard models. The Match and Expert exponentially so. My USP 45 is my field/woods gun. I think (my opinion/your gun/your money) that the additional cost above the basic model would be better spent on a LEM kit, some basic HK tools, and/or a few more of those Teutoniclly priced magazines. Again my opinion. I don’t ever buy a gun with resale in mind. I buy it for what I think best suits my needs. In this case it’s a rugged-as-I-can-get field gun.

All that aside, I took both the USP 45 and USPc .40 to the range last week. I had not shot the compact in quite a while. I forgot what I was missing. The LEM has its quirks, but it was like I never left it for that cheap Austrian 9mm hooker. Lol. Both the .40 and the .45 are set up identical...LEM medium, tritium factory sights, and no lights. It’s my happy place. I’ve posted this before (others have as well) but both/either of those two guns will forever be in my possession and will what I will reach for if I need something that is 100%.. 200% of the time.

I’m sure someone will be by soon to say just the opposite! Lol

[1slow]

First of all, GJM is an expert in the HK USP 45 Field Pistol area. I pay a lot of attention to his and Darryl Bolke’s opinions on HK USP and LEM.



I think the USP full size standard is a great place to start. My favorite Pistols are HK USP Full size series pistols !

I have P30s, HK45s, USP45, USP9. Large bony hands.

When I grip USP with forearm in line with pistol, centered in web of hand, my finger joints bend exactly where the front grip frame corners are. This is very hand size and shape specific.
This locks the USP in better for me than P30 or HK45. It takes a lot more force to move the boxy USP grip in my hand than more rounded P30, HK45 grips.

I may be in the minority.


I have / had HK USP 45s : several Elite, Expert , Tactical, Standard full size.

Daily CCW currently since Covid started is HK USP45 full size LEM. 5'11" 212 lbs, 20 pounds overweight. XL hands.
If I thought there was a practical advantage in the Tactical or Exoert , I would carry it.
I like either cocked and locked or LEM.
LEM works better with my arthritis. YMMV.

Favorite set up is LEM / Match Hybrid Trigger in any of the USPs.

I do not like the Elite, long, unwieldly.

I very much like the Tactical and the Expert. Slightly favor the Tactical. Both are about 1911 full size length.
Both supposedly shoot better than the standard, but short of a rest or a very good day it is hard for me to work to that standard. The match trigger in the Tactical and Exoert probably gain you more than the mechanical increase in accuracy.

Tactical and the Expert are long for AIWB comfort for me.

If you are thinking suppressor, USPT 45 is the answer.

Until you can shoot on demand groups <3'' at 25 yards I think the standard is fine. I routinely do 25 yard head shots.
I have seen 50 yard 6''x6'' plates shot with the USPT45.

I have shot MGM BCC steel at 50 and 100 yards with all of them. I am not good enough to tell much difference between Standard, Tactical, Expert.

[GJM]

Hey fellas,

I admit I didn't get a chance to read through all 100+ pages of this thread yet. I've been researching this whole field gun topic, and am looking to get a USP 45 for a hiking/bear gun.

Is there any reason NOT to get the USP 45 Tactical or USP 45 Expert over the standard USP 45?

I understand that the Tactical and Expert are a little more expensive, but I may have an opportunity to pick up one of the above for a similar price to what a plain USP 45 would cost.

From what I was able to find, they can still handle 45 Super. Any potential issues with the O-ring fitted barrels?

Thanks

The main reason to get a regular USP is if you might carry it appendix, the other pistols are pretty long down there! While I have Experts in 9mm, I have just one Tactical in .45, with the rest all being the FS.

[1slow]

The main reason to get a regular USP is if you might carry it appendix, the other pistols are pretty long down there! While I have Experts in 9mm, I have just one Tactical in .45, with the rest all being the FS.

I agree entirely, carried Tactical all day AIWB. Hopefully never again.

[JAH 3rd]

I have the standard USP 45 and had a USP 45 Expert. The Expert, for me, didn't click. The 6" barrel made that pistol cumbersome. As far as the O-ring goes, with the pistol completely empty of ammo, I could release the slide and slowly move it forward by hand into battery. You can feel the O-ring engage the slide. And one should feel this as it is a point of lockup.

As far as which USP variant to get, I would look as the pistol's mission, which in this case is a hiking/bear gun. Look at how you are going to carry the pistol, open or concealed. Then look at what equipment is available for your choice of carry. HK magazines are around $45 more or less. Lastly, the USP 45 is a large, service pistol. If you get a chance to shoot one, do it. That will be a point of reference too. Finally, I wish the grip texture was a bit more grippy. It looks like it should be, but I much prefer the grip texture of the M&P 2.0 or Glock gen 4/5. Good luck on making your choice and let us know what you decide purchase.

[entropy]

I tolerate carrying a SP101 AWIB. I tried really hard to like carrying a G19 AWIB, but never quite got there. I cannot fathom sticking an artillery piece like an USP down there with the boys. My hat is off to you...

[GJM]

I now recall someone from HK telling a former forum member that the USP FS was theoretically more reliable than the more fitted longer models, like the Expert, due to the longer ones being more "fitted." How much of a reliability difference is unknown.

USP FS isn't bad AIWB for me.

[entropy]

I now recall someone from HK telling a former forum member that the USP FS was theoretically more reliable than the more fitted longer models, like the Expert, due to the longer ones being more "fitted." How much of a reliability difference is unknown.

USP FS isn't bad AIWB for me.

I’m still recovering from the neighbors 110lb Lab launching himself square into my nether regions a couple weeks back. The thought of somehow getting pinched between a chair seat and a HK muzzle makes my lower abdomen ache just thinking about it. Lol

[1slow]

When I was a teen , a tall lean older gentleman, 50 ish, told me why he was carrying a 4 1/2“ revolver rather than 7.5” AIWB.

He said he sat down on one of the bent wood chairs they had in the drug store cafe, pinning one of his testicles between the barrel end and the chair.

He said “ I got up a damn sight faster than I sat down.” Ouch !


I find the HK USP full size to be fine AIWB all day including driving. The Tactical and Expert are doable but not comfortable for me.

I do not wear low rise pants. 5’ 11” , 210 lb.

[JAH 3rd]

On my USP 45 standard size where the hood of the barrel mates up to the breechface is machined smooth, no protrusions. On the Elite 6" barrel there are two fitting pads (?). I wonder if these pads are there to allow the barrel to be hand fit to a closer tolerance. I've provided a link so you can see what I'm talking about. Inquiring minds want to know.


https://hkparts.net/all-parts/h-k-hk-usp-elite-45-acp-barrel-black/

[ChknLivrNWsky]

Thanks all for the replies. I meant to reply sooner but was recovering from surgery.

I have had HK's in the past (P2000 LEM V2, VP9's). I also had one USP 45 Elite I bought at one point in CA. I did not put much rounds through the Elite before selling it. I liked it a lot, but was moving out of CA and selling some things off and it made sense to sell all the handguns to someone else in CA vs bringing them along.

Anyway, I'm thinking something from HPG would work for carrying this. I normally AIWB carry a G19 and that's probably about as large as I can go before it looks too obvious that I'm carrying.

Is V1 still the preferred variant for a field USP45? I like LEM in theory and liked it when all I shot was the P2000. However I'm issued a G19 and since have switched to just carrying and shooting Glocks. That said, shooting a SA (Staccato CS) and Glock back to back doesn't screw with me as bad as what going from LEM to Glock and back would do. So I don't think shooting the SA/DA from time to time would be as bad.

I hope this was coherent, I'm still taking some meds

[CakeEater]

Thanks all for the replies. I meant to reply sooner but was recovering from surgery.

I have had HK's in the past (P2000 LEM V2, VP9's). I also had one USP 45 Elite I bought at one point in CA. I did not put much rounds through the Elite before selling it. I liked it a lot, but was moving out of CA and selling some things off and it made sense to sell all the handguns to someone else in CA vs bringing them along.

I was stationed in Cali and felt the same way, leave/sell the items to those left behind.

Anyway, I'm thinking something from HPG would work for carrying this. I normally AIWB carry a G19 and that's probably about as large as I can go before it looks too obvious that I'm carrying.

I’ve been running a P30L in a FHF Chest Rig. I’ll have to see how a HK45 and USP fit and Report back.

Is V1 still the preferred variant for a field USP45? I like LEM in theory and liked it when all I shot was the P2000. However I'm issued a G19 and since have switched to just carrying and shooting Glocks. That said, shooting a SA (Staccato CS) and Glock back to back doesn't screw with me as bad as what going from LEM to Glock and back would do. So I don't think shooting the SA/DA from time to time would be as bad. Ok

Unlike the P30/P2000, the beauty of the USP series is you can have it your way and switch to your liking. I’m waiting for the GrayGuns trigger to switch to a Match LEM.

I hope this was coherent, I'm still taking some meds

It’s the only way to fly! I remember after getting my wisdom teeth pulled fresh in the Marine Corps, I got Vicodin for the first time. I was reading a book and saw the words coming off the page. Best wishes for a full and speedy recovery!!!!

[GJM]

Thanks all for the replies. I meant to reply sooner but was recovering from surgery.

I have had HK's in the past (P2000 LEM V2, VP9's). I also had one USP 45 Elite I bought at one point in CA. I did not put much rounds through the Elite before selling it. I liked it a lot, but was moving out of CA and selling some things off and it made sense to sell all the handguns to someone else in CA vs bringing them along.

Anyway, I'm thinking something from HPG would work for carrying this. I normally AIWB carry a G19 and that's probably about as large as I can go before it looks too obvious that I'm carrying.

Is V1 still the preferred variant for a field USP45? I like LEM in theory and liked it when all I shot was the P2000. However I'm issued a G19 and since have switched to just carrying and shooting Glocks. That said, shooting a SA (Staccato CS) and Glock back to back doesn't screw with me as bad as what going from LEM to Glock and back would do. So I don't think shooting the SA/DA from time to time would be as bad.

I hope this was coherent, I'm still taking some meds

I like the match hybrid LEM trigger or DA/SA with the lever acting as a decocker only, not as a thumb safety.

[entropy]

I’ll toss my vote in for medium LEM. I shot this for over 15 years before going Glock. That was short lived. Back on the LEM. I would never go DA/SA again.

[GJM]

I’ll toss my vote in for medium LEM. I shot this for over 15 years before going Glock. That was short lived. Back on the LEM. I would never go DA/SA again.

I was pretty convinced match hybrid LEM was THE answer for the USP FS. Last spring, when I got the Lipsey's LTT USP with the optic, I went to the range with that pistol, and a lower with the match hybrid LEM from another pistol. I shot both, mostly as a formality, to confirm my preference for the LEM. Completely surprised myself by shooting the DA/SA better -- the timer and targets don't lie.

[1slow]

Do you feel the match/ hybrid LEM has any advantages over DA, SA. Perhaps cold hands, gloves , administrative ?

[GJM]

Do you feel the match/ hybrid LEM has any advantages over DA, SA. Perhaps cold hands, gloves , administrative ?

Definitely over a variant with a thumb safety, but with decock only, it gets down to personal preference. If you can deal with the heavy DA pull, the SA is easier for me than LEM. The first season with a USP in AK, I tweaked the tendon in my trigger finger from (excessive) dry fire practice in DA!

[entropy]

Different strokes for different folks...literally in this case. The familiarity on the LEM for me is what does it. I was forced to learn the quirkiness of that trigger and after a while embraced it. Wet hands, cold hands, tired hands...it feels the same way each time on every shot. For my needs, that is worth whatever sacrifice is made over other triggers and platforms.

[1slow]

i went LEM and LEM /MATCH Hybrid.

Thumb arthritis compromises hard shooting grip in holster with thumb on lever . This limits cocked & locked. I loathe HK DA and possible strain on finger in high use.

Hence LEM of some sort.

[1slow]

Different strokes for different folks...literally in this case. The familiarity on the LEM for me is what does it. I was forced to learn the quirkiness of that trigger and after a while embraced it. Wet hands, cold hands, tired hands...it feels the same way each time on every shot. For my needs, that is worth whatever sacrifice is made over other triggers and platforms.

THIS !!!

[ChknLivrNWsky]

It’s the only way to fly! I remember after getting my wisdom teeth pulled fresh in the Marine Corps, I got Vicodin for the first time. I was reading a book and saw the words coming off the page. Best wishes for a full and speedy recovery!!!!

Thank you!


I like the match hybrid LEM trigger or DA/SA with the lever acting as a decocker only, not as a thumb safety.

I'll look into what it takes to convert it to decocker only. What gives me pause about the V1 is accidentally decocking the hammer when disengaging the safety.

[GJM]

The great thing about the USP is, you can configure it to whatever variant best fits your needs. Don't let that entropy guy fool you, since he can fly an airliner, tail dragger, and everything in between, I am pretty sure he can handle a DA SA trigger!

[Archer1440]

I'll look into what it takes to convert it to decocker only. What gives me pause about the V1 is accidentally decocking the hammer when disengaging the safety.

It's a three minute, seven sixteen dollar plate swap, literally.

(Price went up lol)

Buy it directly from H&K, avoid the "other" parts supplier.

https://us.hkwebshop.com/hkstorefront/hk/en/Handgun-Parts/Frame-Parts/Detent-Plate-5%2B6/p/214255

[Coal Train]

It's a three minute, seven sixteen dollar plate swap, literally.

(Price went up lol)

Buy it directly from H&K, avoid the "other" parts supplier.

https://us.hkwebshop.com/hkstorefront/hk/en/Handgun-Parts/Frame-Parts/Detent-Plate-5%2B6/p/214255

That link is to the detent plate that converts to Variant 5 or 6 (i.e. DAO with a safety). What he wants is the 3-4 plate which is decocker no safety.



[The only reason I know this is that I am also looking for a 3-4 plate for my USPs and they seem to be perpetually out of stock.]

[Archer1440]

That link is to the detent plate that converts to Variant 5 or 6 (i.e. DAO with a safety). What he wants is the 3-4 plate which is decocker no safety.



[The only reason I know this is that I am also looking for a 3-4 plate for my USPs and they seem to be perpetually out of stock.]

You're right, I misread the post! The plate I'm discussing allows cocked-and-locked carry and I have had that on the brain lately. Thanks for the correction.

[entropy]

The great thing about the USP is, you can configure it to whatever variant best fits your needs. Don't let that entropy guy fool you, since he can fly an airliner, tail dragger, and everything in between, I am pretty sure he can handle a DA SA trigger!


No rotary wing. They scare me. Lol

Don’t let the innards intimidate you either. I spent years staring at my personal USPc wanting to exactly duplicate the issued one. When I searched out the USP .45FS, I could only locate one that was Variant 1. I ordered up the LEM parts, the magic pliers, and summoned the Teutonic gods for strength. I was surprised how straight forward and simple it was to work on.

[ChknLivrNWsky]

So I've been reading a bit more of the thread, and I see GJM that you've been using a 9 mm for a field pistol. Now I don't want to detract from the spirit of this thread, but have you, or anyone else here, considered any of the PCC's out there as a field pistol?

I have an APC9K that shares the same mags as my CCW's. Any reason not to keep a folded APC9K with 33 rounds of the appropriate ammo in your day pack?

Of course if the bear gets the jump on you then your best bet is whatever you have holstered. I figure a Glock with 17 rounds + another 33 rounds that could be shoulder fired (and with a decent red dot mounted) would be a good set up.

I will say that every bear encounter I've had so far was from about 50ish to 75 yards away. And they never seemed interested enough to walk towards me. I think in those scenarios I would have had time to pull an APC9K out of my pack, but I'd be lying if I said I've actually been charged by a bear before.

Again, the PCC might be outside the scope of what this thread is about. It was just the responsible side of me saying "you don't need to buy that USP field pistol, we have a field pistol at home".