Oklahoma Highway Patrol Adopts Sig P320.

[Dagga Boy]

I don't put too much stock in any particular gun. As far as capacity goes, I even carry a S&W 642 and a couple of speed strips. What is interesting about this thread is it was suppose to be about the P320. But it seems the H&K fanboys take exception to the Sig. Drawing them out was simple enough to do by simply talking about the 15 shot magazine. Glock, S&W and Sig all managed to produce a reliable 17 shot magazine, shame with all their greatness H&K wasn't able to do the same. :-)

It's sort of funny how you read into things. Let's see, I worked for SIG's west coast LE distributer before becoming a cop and actually went to my PD with a SiG order. Split a half a million rounds of .45 between multiple SIG and HK pistols and hold Armorers certificates on both. Shot a dude with a SiG. Won the Top Gun shoot for the largest county in the US in a match in which the host agency set it up to be very Glock centric to their issues guns...won every single course with a SiG P-226 and the overall title. Have shot over a quarter million rounds through Glock 9mm's. Ran a program with issue HK's, SIG's and Glocks. Owned my own police equipment store and sold extensive numbers of both SIG's and Glocks. So.....I may have a clue about various discussed service pistols, reliability in the service environment, law enforcement firearms acquisitions and testing processes. The point here is HK made a decision to produce the VP9/P30's with an enlarged magazine based dimensionally on the very successful P2000/USP Compact 9 mm dimensions with various improvements for enhanced long term reliability in the military and LE environment. HK made an engineering decision to build it as a 15 round magazine. No matter what you think about HK, from an engineering standpoint, they tend to build very reliable and heavily tested guns. It is why there are very few changes over the life of various guns. How many variants of Glock magazines are there? Why is that? Do I think HK could make a 17 round magazine....sure. Do I think there is a reason for the 15....yes, and I like the reliability aspect and durability. Wayne and I likely see more HK magazines mixed with other guns than most and are making an observation based on experience rather than "fan boyism". What is also funny, is in Dobbs case, he also has a ton of time on the M&P 9mm as well as being a very respected and recognized subject matter expert on the Glock as well. But, it's the Internet, so we can be labeled fan boys because it is a place where real experience doesn't mean much.
Then again, I was one of the first guys cutting down G17's to take 15 round 19 mags, so I am notorious for liking sub capable low capacity high capacity 9 mm's.
This comes down to something Wayne and I do know something about....LE purchasing. Fact is most of this is theater and most places set up testing to get what they want and be able to say they had a "fair" process. It is mostly b.s. As most places get what they want before the testing starts. The Sig 320 is a good gun that has a ton of appeal for most LE and LE agency's for a lot of reasons. I just wish we could either say "we want P320's" (or whatever gun they feel meets their needs) or do a neutral test and winner takes all. The idea of building a test or criteria around what the agency wants is silliness.

[stingray]

It's sort of funny how you read into things. Let's see, I worked for SIG's west coast LE distributer before becoming a cop and actually went to my PD with a SiG order. Split a half a million rounds of .45 between multiple SIG and HK pistols and hold Armorers certificates on both. Shot a dude with a SiG. Won the Top Gun shoot for the largest county in the US in a match in which the host agency set it up to be very Glock centric to their issues guns...won every single course with a SiG P-226 and the overall title. Have shot over a quarter million rounds through Glock 9mm's. Ran a program with issue HK's, SIG's and Glocks. Owned my own police equipment store and sold extensive numbers of both SIG's and Glocks. So.....I may have a clue about various discussed service pistols, reliability in the service environment, law enforcement firearms acquisitions and testing processes. The point here is HK made a decision to produce the VP9/P30's with an enlarged magazine based dimensionally on the very successful P2000/USP Compact 9 mm dimensions with various improvements for enhanced long term reliability in the military and LE environment. HK made an engineering decision to build it as a 15 round magazine. No matter what you think about HK, from an engineering standpoint, they tend to build very reliable and heavily tested guns. It is why there are very few changes over the life of various guns. How many variants of Glock magazines are there? Why is that? Do I think HK could make a 17 round magazine....sure. Do I think there is a reason for the 15....yes, and I like the reliability aspect and durability. Wayne and I likely see more HK magazines mixed with other guns than most and are making an observation based on experience rather than "fan boyism". What is also funny, is in Dobbs case, he also has a ton of time on the M&P 9mm as well as being a very respected and recognized subject matter expert on the Glock as well. But, it's the Internet, so we can be labeled fan boys because it is a place where real experience doesn't mean much.
Then again, I was one of the first guys cutting down G17's to take 15 round 19 mags, so I am notorious for liking sub capable low capacity high capacity 9 mm's.
This comes down to something Wayne and I do know something about....LE purchasing. Fact is most of this is theater and most places set up testing to get what they want and be able to say they had a "fair" process. It is mostly b.s. As most places get what they want before the testing starts. The Sig 320 is a good gun that has a ton of appeal for most LE and LE agency's for a lot of reasons. I just wish we could either say "we want P320's" (or whatever gun they feel meets their needs) or do a neutral test and winner takes all. The idea of building a test or criteria around what the agency wants is silliness.

Why on earth would anyone want to build something the potential customer wants? Seems H&K thinks it silly too.

[HCM]

Interesting. But the VP9 was brought up and not the other H&K guns.

However, your issue with the VP nine as stated is the 15 round magazine. That magazine design was developed for the HK USP compact and subsequently continued to the P 2000 series and then length and two full-size grip link for the P 30 and the VP9.

It was a proven design before the VP9 existed.

I don't carry a VP nine or rep for H and K, but in my experience it is the most reliable handgun magazine out there.

[Dagga Boy]

Why on earth would anyone want to build something the potential customer wants? Seems H&K thinks it silly too.

The context was what brand or gun the agency (and it can come from various individuals in the agency) wants, not the capability. My point was, certain places simply want something and then do a "test" to confirm their choice. Various agencies (and especially the State ones) have some very deep loyalties to companies. Texas DPS and Sig, Calif. Highway Patrol and S&W are a couple examples and various Glock devotees. My point was, if an agency wants Sig P-320's....buy them. The silliness is doing a "test" to pick what you wanted in the first place. It is a joke. Get some samples, make sure it is good to go, and buy them. If the entire basis of your agency needs is it HAS to have 17 rounds as the primary criteria, that is a deal breaker for everything else I would contend that your priorities are totally screwed up, OR the gun you really, really want happens to have 17 rounds, and it is a method to get that gun and exclude things so you can tell people who may question the decision that you picked what you did because nothing else could meet your criteria. I would just rather they are honest. Heck, I just had an agency use their E/O Tech refund to buy........E/O Techs. Think there would ever be a fair test there?
Some places really want a fair test and are open to anything. There will always be favorites, but the reality is some folks are open to testing criteria that is set up to be more competitive than a process used to simply get what you wanted before the "test" started.

I am curious stingray, how you are doing agency selection. Simple purchase, or open or closed testing? Who is writing the criteria, and what are you basing it on?

[stingray]

The context was what brand or gun the agency (and it can come from various individuals in the agency) wants, not the capability. My point was, certain places simply want something and then do a "test" to confirm their choice. Various agencies (and especially the State ones) have some very deep loyalties to companies. Texas DPS and Sig, Calif. Highway Patrol and S&W are a couple examples and various Glock devotees. My point was, if an agency wants Sig P-320's....buy them. The silliness is doing a "test" to pick what you wanted in the first place. It is a joke. Get some samples, make sure it is good to go, and buy them. If the entire basis of your agency needs is it HAS to have 17 rounds as the primary criteria, that is a deal breaker for everything else I would contend that your priorities are totally screwed up, OR the gun you really, really want happens to have 17 rounds, and it is a method to get that gun and exclude things so you can tell people who may question the decision that you picked what you did because nothing else could meet your criteria. I would just rather they are honest. Heck, I just had an agency use their E/O Tech refund to buy........E/O Techs. Think there would ever be a fair test there?
Some places really want a fair test and are open to anything. There will always be favorites, but the reality is some folks are open to testing criteria that is set up to be more competitive than a process used to simply get what you wanted before the "test" started.

I am curious stingray, how you are doing agency selection. Simple purchase, or open or closed testing? Who is writing the criteria, and what are you basing it on?

I can pretty much agree with your statement. We all know the why of the testing. As to your question, I have no idea what you are asking. Sorry.......

[FNFAN]

Why on earth would anyone want to build something the potential customer wants? Seems H&K thinks it silly too.

[Dagga Boy]

I can pretty much agree with your statement. We all know the why of the testing. As to your question, I have no idea what you are asking. Sorry.......

When you are conducting agency testing, what process do you use? Do you just buy what a group tasked with the purchase wants. Do you build a test with no criteria? If you are using a criteria based test, who is writing it and what are you basing that criteria on?

[HCM]

The context was what brand or gun the agency (and it can come from various individuals in the agency) wants, not the capability. My point was, certain places simply want something and then do a "test" to confirm their choice. Various agencies (and especially the State ones) have some very deep loyalties to companies. Texas DPS and Sig, Calif. Highway Patrol and S&W are a couple examples and various Glock devotees. My point was, if an agency wants Sig P-320's....buy them. The silliness is doing a "test" to pick what you wanted in the first place. It is a joke. Get some samples, make sure it is good to go, and buy them. If the entire basis of your agency needs is it HAS to have 17 rounds as the primary criteria, that is a deal breaker for everything else I would contend that your priorities are totally screwed up, OR the gun you really, really want happens to have 17 rounds, and it is a method to get that gun and exclude things so you can tell people who may question the decision that you picked what you did because nothing else could meet your criteria. I would just rather they are honest. Heck, I just had an agency use their E/O Tech refund to buy........E/O Techs. Think there would ever be a fair test there?
Some places really want a fair test and are open to anything. There will always be favorites, but the reality is some folks are open to testing criteria that is set up to be more competitive than a process used to simply get what you wanted before the "test" started.

I am curious stingray, how you are doing agency selection. Simple purchase, or open or closed testing? Who is writing the criteria, and what are you basing it on?

The Texas DPS has been carrying six since they transitioned from Smith and Wesson revolver's in the late 80s or early 90s.

After the Texas DPS's disastrous dalliance with Smith and Wesson M&Ps, I can understand them being a little gun shy and wanting to stay with a known and familiar supplier.

[breakingtime91]

I don't put too much stock in any particular gun. As far as capacity goes, I even carry a S&W 642 and a couple of speed strips. What is interesting about this thread is it was suppose to be about the P320. But it seems the H&K fanboys take exception to the Sig. Drawing them out was simple enough to do by simply talking about the 15 shot magazine. Glock, S&W and Sig all managed to produce a reliable 17 shot magazine, shame with all their greatness H&K wasn't able to do the same. :-)

you are a pretty unfriendly person but I'll bite. The point the "fan boys" are making is that hk mags will outlast most other mags because they left the space (two less rounds) so the spring in the magazine doesn't wear as fast. You keep saying they couldn't figure out how to make a reliable 17 shot magazine, that is just plain silliness on your part. Nyeti has already explained this to you but your trolling too hard to actually take in what he is saying. As someone who is apparently okay carrying a j-frame, your pretty pissed off that anyone would suggest that 15 rounds in the gun may be ok for a gun fight.

[Ed L]

The 15 round capacity is the only head scratcher for me with e VP9. The price point is even a refreshing look from H&K.

I would gladly trade two rounds for greater reliability.

I have experienced problems with 17 round M&P9 mags where the rounds got wedged together inside the magazine. It seems in order to allow the mags to fit 17 rounds, the mags are a tiny bit too wide, and thus allow two rounds to sometimes get wedged together under certain circumstances.

I have had this happen with four or five different magazines, even after adding stronger ISMI springs to the magazine. I have also had this happen with different ammo, including Black Hills and Winchester Ranger.


Below are some pictures I took of what it looked like. A simple rap on the bottom did nothing. It is hard to tell what is going on, but bear in mind, the rounds are locked together about an inch down into the magazine and got that way during normal magazine loading.

Below are pictures that I have taken of the wedged rounds in M&P9 magazines: