Oklahoma Highway Patrol Adopts Sig P320.

[stingray]

Shouldn't be a head scratcher issue. Can you get 17 rounds into the HK magazine envelope? Yes, you can. But....like everything else where you jam something into a space that's really too small, you create a less reliable machine and you wear it out sooner. HK magazines last forever and the reliability levels associated with their 15 shot 9X19 magazines are simply astounding. This bullshit of 17 rounds vs 15 rounds is just that. It's purely a psychological crutch used by the same penis thrashers who think having cool gear or lots of rounds will somehow make them competent in a fight...and it won't. If you select and train folks to a proper level of competence, then there is no actual performance difference between 8, 10, 15 or 17 rounds in the magazine, because the competent guys and gals haven't even approached the bottom of their magazine capacity to solve their street shooting problems.

I guess you're right. I mean really, H&K doesn't need the business of US LE agencies. Hell, who even needs 8 rounds right? If, as you say "select and train folks" and all.........then again I've never met anyone who's been in a gunfight that wished they had been carrying less ammo.

[Dagga Boy]

I guess you're right. I mean really, H&K doesn't need the business of US LE agencies. Hell, who even needs 8 rounds right? If, as you say "select and train folks" and all.........then again I've never met anyone who's been in a gunfight that wished they had been carrying less ammo.

You mean the Hk with the largest LE contract in the country with a gun with even less ammo? We have seen enough jacked up 17 round M&P mags that I am very okay with giving up two rounds for long term reliability and solid function. How many gunfights have we seen with an early malfunction...most of which will be magazine or grip related. Luckily, I have trained a crap load of folks who have absolutely dominated gunfights, and been the first to interview many immediately afterwards, and not a single one said a thing about capacity because they solved the problem with marksmanship, gun handling, tactics and mindset instead of a "thing" that would win the fight for them, like that 17 round magazine.

By the way, Wayne and I are both running some Taylor Freelance +5's in a few training mags....so we can go to more capacity while maintaining the core magazines if it a huge issue. Also funny, I never remember complaints about this when the Beretta and P226's started dominating the market. The one case I know of where folks were running out of ammo with Beretta 92's the agency used it to justify .45's for better "performance". I think it was a ploy to get .45's, just like the 17 round requirement is a ploy now for "not HK".

[stingray]

You mean the Hk with the largest LE contract in the country with a gun with even less ammo? We have seen enough jacked up 17 round M&P mags that I am very okay with giving up two rounds for long term reliability and solid function. How many gunfights have we seen with an early malfunction...most of which will be magazine or grip related. Luckily, I have trained a crap load of folks who have absolutely dominated gunfights, and been the first to interview many immediately afterwards, and not a single one said a thing about capacity because they solved the problem with marksmanship, gun handling, tactics and mindset instead of a "thing" that would win the fight for them, like that 17 round magazine.

By the way, Wayne and I are both running some Taylor Freelance +5's in a few training mags....so we can go to more capacity while maintaining the core magazines if it a huge issue. Also funny, I never remember complaints about this when the Beretta and P226's started dominating the market. The one case I know of where folks were running out of ammo with Beretta 92's the agency used it to justify .45's for better "performance". I think it was a ploy to get .45's, just like the 17 round requirement is a ploy now for "not HK".

Seems OHP and many others disagree with you.

I also seem to remember reading around here the Doc Roberts highly recommends the Glock 17 for duty carry. In fact he said something along the lines of it being the most highly vetted 9mm in use. I think the Glock 17 uses a 17 round magazine and does so quite successfully.

[TCinVA]

Seems OHP and many others disagree with you.

I also seem to remember reading around here the Doc Roberts highly recommends the Glock 17 for duty carry. In fact he said something along the lines of it being the most highly vetted 9mm in use. I think the Glock 17 uses a 17 round magazine and does so quite successfully.

A lot of experienced people also recommend downloading Glock magazines by at least one round.

[HCM]

The contract NYETI is referring to is the US Customs and Border Protrction (CBP) contract for 40 caliber LEM HK's including USP Compacts, P2000s. P2000sk's and a limited number of P30L's. The former immigration and naturalization service, which included the US border patrol, begin issuing HK USP compact LEM's around 1998 or 1999. CBP, of which the US border patrol is now a part, has over 40,000 armed law enforcement officers The majority of which are issued the HK P 2000.

I've been working with or around these guns for over 15 years, the only magazine related failures I'm aware of are the zipper welds on the back occasionally cracking after being repeatedly dropped onto concrete.

Border patrol agents are like Marines, if you lock them in a room with two bowling balls, they will break one and lose or impregnate the other.

These officers have done pretty much everything you can imagine to these guns, including one guy who put his gun in the oven only to have his wife put the oven on and roast his service weapon. I'd say they are pretty well vetted.

[stingray]

The contract NYETI is referring to is the US Customs and Border Protrction (CBP) contract for 40 caliber LEM HK's including USP Compacts, P2000s. P2000sk's and a limited number of P30L's. The former immigration and naturalization service, which included the US border patrol, begin issuing HK USP compact LEM's around 1998 or 1999. CBP, of which the US border patrol is now a part, has over 40,000 armed law enforcement officers The majority of which are issued the HK P 2000.

I've been working with or around these guns for over 15 years, the only magazine related failures I'm aware of are the zipper welds on the back occasionally cracking after being repeatedly dropped onto concrete.

Border patrol agents are like Marines, if you lock them in a room with two bowling balls, they will break one and lose or impregnate the other.

These officers have done pretty much everything you can imagine to these guns, including one guy who put his gun in the oven only to have his wife put the oven on and roast his service weapon. I'd say they are pretty well vetted.

Interesting. But the VP9 was brought up and not the other H&K guns.

[breakingtime91]

I find it interesting that people are still fighting about capacity.. Most people would be better of choosing which ever option works better for them if the difference is only two rounds.. If you think a g17 is the answer stingray great, no sweat. Carry a reload and learn to reload the gun and I'm gonna guess the difference of 2 rounds in the gun probably won't get you killed. I trust hk mags way more then glock but I wouldn't cry if I had to use either. Glock mags would just get more of a watchful eye.

[Dagga Boy]

A lot of experienced people also recommend downloading Glock magazines by at least one round.

I have been doing this since 1988. Both Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn recommend this practice as well. Bunch of dumb asses who are losing a valuable round.

[Dagga Boy]

Interesting. But the VP9 was brought up and not the other H&K guns.

VP9 uses the same mag as the P30/P30L. Border Patrol SOG just went with TF extensions instead of discounting the gun.

[stingray]

I find it interesting that people are still fighting about capacity.. Most people would be better of choosing which ever option works better for them if the difference is only two rounds.. If you think a g17 is the answer stingray great, no sweat. Carry a reload and learn to reload the gun and I'm gonna guess the difference of 2 rounds in the gun probably won't get you killed. I trust hk mags way more then glock but I wouldn't cry if I had to use either. Glock mags would just get more of a watchful eye.

I don't put too much stock in any particular gun. As far as capacity goes, I even carry a S&W 642 and a couple of speed strips. What is interesting about this thread is it was suppose to be about the P320. But it seems the H&K fanboys take exception to the Sig. Drawing them out was simple enough to do by simply talking about the 15 shot magazine. Glock, S&W and Sig all managed to produce a reliable 17 shot magazine, shame with all their greatness H&K wasn't able to do the same. :-)