LE UOF Video thread

[Doug MacRay]

Following the acquittal of former Officer Brailsford in the shooting death of Daniel Shaver, video of the incident was unsealed by the judge in the case. It's important to note that the person giving commands is not the shooter. The shooter is the one who was tried for the killing and the one giving commands is his Sergeant (who retired soon after the shooting). The police were responding to a call about someone with a rifle in a hotel room (witness saw it through the window). The subject who was shot had a BAC of >.26 according to the coroner.

Beyond the initial contact, it's hard to see anything that was handled appropriately by the responding officers. This is also a good case study on why having unnecessary super-moto hoorah gear can make you look like shit when you actually have to use it. Having "You're Fucked" written on your dust cover might make you look cool to your range buddies, but it makes you look like a psychopath to the general public. This is a rather depressing case all around.

22195


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M62Va6Ft2cw&has_verified=1

[TGS]

Following the acquittal of former Officer Brailsford in the shooting death of Daniel Shaver, video of the incident was unsealed by the judge in the case. It's important to note that the person giving commands is not the shooter. The shooter is the one who was tried for the killing and the one giving commands is his Sergeant (who retired soon after the shooting). The police were responding to a call about someone with a rifle in a hotel room (witness saw it through the window). The subject who was shot had a BAC of >.26 according to the coroner.

Beyond the initial contact, it's hard to see anything that was handled appropriately by the responding officers.
]

Thanks for the note about who was issuing commands.

I thought they put the subject in an unwinnable situation. Their commands were too complex and specific for someone who was trying to move.....the subject was bound to screw them up.

Though I understand the whole furtive movement thing as a legal justification, i can also see why it went to trial.

[Gray222]

Following the acquittal of former Officer Brailsford in the shooting death of Daniel Shaver, video of the incident was unsealed by the judge in the case. It's important to note that the person giving commands is not the shooter. The shooter is the one who was tried for the killing and the one giving commands is his Sergeant (who retired soon after the shooting). The police were responding to a call about someone with a rifle in a hotel room (witness saw it through the window). The subject who was shot had a BAC of >.26 according to the coroner.

Beyond the initial contact, it's hard to see anything that was handled appropriately by the responding officers. This is also a good case study on why having unnecessary super-moto hoorah gear can make you look like shit when you actually have to use it. Having "You're Fucked" written on your dust cover might make you look cool to your range buddies, but it makes you look like a psychopath to the general public. This is a rather depressing case all around.

22195


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M62Va6Ft2cw&has_verified=1

Depressing and unfortunate for sure but clearly shows that it doesn't matter what is on your firearm, only your actions matter.

[Adam78]

Depressing and unfortunate for sure but clearly shows that it doesn't matter what is on your firearm, only your actions matter.

The judge didn’t allow the jury to see that was engraved on his firearm.

[Gray222]

The judge didn’t allow the jury to see that was engraved on his firearm.

Where'd you see that? Link would be nice.

Also evidence can be suppressed for numerous reasons, if it went towards motive it likely would not have been suppressed.

[Kukuforguns]

link (https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/mesa/2017/09/08/profane-etching-ex-mesa-officer-phillip-mitch-brailsford-gun-inadmissible-daniel-shaver-murder-trial/648709001/)to exclusion.

[Gray222]

State prosecutors argued that the words were a testament to Brailsford’s mindset at the time of the incident, but Maricopa County Superior Court Judge George Foster found the evidence “totally prejudicial” and ruled it inadmissible.


Interesting. Would love to read the notes of that motion.

[AMC]

Just saw in the other thread the info that it was the Sergeant giving commands, rather than the shooter. Actually makes it worse, in my eyes. Rather than controlling the situation and directing officers responses, he made the whole thing worse.

[Gray222]

Just saw in the other thread the info that it was the Sergeant giving commands, rather than the shooter. Actually makes it worse, in my eyes. Rather than controlling the situation and directing officers responses, he made the whole thing worse.

I heard an old IA OIS investigator say that even though many times the shooting officer may be the one that "owns" the shoot, there are sometimes instances of other officers and/or supervisors messing up the whole thing and setting up the shooting officer for the eventuality which is the shooting.

[jnc36rcpd]

I recall reading the opinion that felony car stop procedures only work with compliant suspects. I think we see an illustration of that applied to this hotel contact. The commands were way too complex for someone with a gun pointed at him, especially with the suspect's level of intoxication. Many people attempt compliance with commands, but do not understand that such instinctive actions as pulling up pants violate the do-no-move command. The order to just fall forward if the suspect loses his balance goes against something ingrained in us since we were infants. I guess I could push myself up with my ankles crossed, but that seems counter-intuitive and more so if I were intoxicated.

Safely pulling potentially armed suspects out of a hotel room is going to be difficult, but this approach seemed doomed from the start.

And I probably won't be getting "You're fucked" etched on my patrol rifle. Good grief.

[TheNewbie]

Why do people run around with idiotic writing or logos on their guns? Also some of the patches officers get look so cheesy and so over the top. Not to mention how unprofessional it looks.

[Sixgun_Symphony]

http://lmgcorporate.com/phxdigital/news/3-30-16/Shaver%20Daniel%20AUTOPSY%20REPORT.pdf Shaver autopsy report... Photos are also able to be found online as well. Based on an old 2009 duty ammunition bid solicitation from Mesa PD, I'm thinking the rifle ammo used was T223F 55gr Ballistic Tip.

I thought it was just the other day, another OIS was posted here with a rifle involved.. any one have any information on that one?

[Doc_Glock]

http://lmgcorporate.com/phxdigital/news/3-30-16/Shaver%20Daniel%20AUTOPSY%20REPORT.pdf Shaver autopsy report... Photos are also able to be found online as well. Based on an old 2009 duty ammunition bid solicitation from Mesa PD, I'm thinking the rifle ammo used was T223F 55gr Ballistic Tip.

I thought it was just the other day, another OIS was posted here with a rifle involved.. any one have any information on that one?

That was interesting. Given the range those shots were taken, they weren’t all that accurate except the first one. He ripped off five pretty fast though. From the video the splits were sub .18 to my ear.

I am guessing left chest was first shot then back and back of neck toward the end of the string as he collapsed.

[Gray222]

https://youtu.be/xD-_H4t09cU

A lot could have been done here instead of shooting, especially with two officers on scene, even though one looked like he was laying down on the job.

Granted I don't know why the officer was on the ground, but that is a bad position to be and chances are that is the reason for escalation.

Remember, a person need not be armed in order to have deadly forced used against them.

[Hambo]

https://youtu.be/xD-_H4t09cU

A lot could have been done here instead of shooting, especially with two officers on scene, even though one looked like he was laying down on the job.

Granted I don't know why the officer was on the ground, but that is a bad position to be and chances are that is the reason for escalation.

Remember, a person need not be armed in order to have deadly forced used against them.

Watch the body cam videos in the interview, which is linked from Greg's site: http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/the-new-normal-in-police-tactics

The first officer's plan was run away-Taser, which failed, then he ended up on the ground waiving his ASP.

[Erick Gelhaus]

I recall reading the opinion that felony car stop procedures only work with compliant suspects. I think we see an illustration of that applied to this hotel contact. The commands were way too complex for someone ...

NOT a fan of the commands and how they were given. Should have been simpler and clearer, one direction at a time. Trying to envision what has been reported and hotel layouts, I'm thinking of other ways to get the guy secured and searched.

The info on the judge keeping the dust cover out of the trial was posted in the general area. There was a stand alone thread on it with the ruling.

As for the Broward County OIS ... while I saw times when I'd have completely agreed with deadly force being used, I have difficulty wih no effort to go hands on or go to an actual impact weapon rather than displaying a tool and demanding/hoping for compliance in the immediate lead up to the shooting. Spaulding's discussion yesterday about hands on skills yesterday was on point.

[AMC]

https://youtu.be/xD-_H4t09cU

A lot could have been done here instead of shooting, especially with two officers on scene, even though one looked like he was laying down on the job.

Granted I don't know why the officer was on the ground, but that is a bad position to be and chances are that is the reason for escalation.

Remember, a person need not be armed in order to have deadly forced used against them.

What the actual fuck. I just...I don't.....what the hell was that? Those cops didn't look THAT young, or THAT small...is this an effect of our decades of zero tolerance in schools? These guys have never been punched or grabbed? I hate Monday morning these guys but shit....tackle the fucking guy for God's sake!!!

ETA: maybe this is just my own internal frustration. Just got a bunch of new kids at my assignment. We now have four female officers who are under 5' and under 100#s....and one who is maybe 5'2" and 105#s. Also two male officers who are around 5'2"-5'3". This is not to slam their courage, their intellect, or even their potential ability to DEFEND themselves. But that's a different thing than CONTROLLING and arresting someone significantly bigger than you. Unless you're Yoda....size does actually matter. And clearly training is failing, if cops aren't using what's taught.

[Wondering Beard]

.tackle the fucking guy for God's sake!!!.

Not being a cop, nor having any law enforcement experience, I was wondering about exactly that.

[Gray222]

Tackling is a bad idea and should not be employed.

Too many bad things can happen from that level of force.

[Gray222]

https://youtu.be/qX_bMInEaek

[Lon]

https://youtu.be/qX_bMInEaek

WTF was that? Was she actually pursuing a stolen car she shot at with someone detained in the backseat of her car? And WTF did she shoot at the car for?

[Lon]

https://youtu.be/qX_bMInEaek

And she was charged criminally.


https://youtu.be/lOpxycec7Jk

[Gray222]

That is what we'd call "a bad shoot."

[Kukuforguns]

https://youtu.be/qX_bMInEaekMisdemeanor reckless discharge of a firearm.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[Gray222]

Misdemeanor reckless discharge of a firearm.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

She hit her.

That's aggravated assault with a firearm, a felony.

[Lon]

A lot easier to prove a misdemeanor. At least here. It’d be negligent assault.

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2903.14v1

A lot easier to prove the mens rea of negligence required in the misdemeanor vs. the mens rea of knowingly in the more serious felonious assault.

You could try for aggravated assault, a lower felony, but still harder to prove since you also have to prove it was brought on by sudden passion or a sudden fit of rage.


2903.12 Aggravated assault.
(A) No person, while under the influence of sudden passion or in a sudden fit of rage, either of which is brought on by serious provocation occasioned by the victim that is reasonably sufficient to incite the person into using deadly force, shall knowingly:

(2) Cause or attempt to cause physical harm to another or to another's unborn by means of a deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance, as defined in section 2923.11 of the Revised Code

[Gray222]

A lot easier to prove a misdemeanor. At least here. It’d be negligent assault.

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2903.14v1

A lot easier to prove the mens rea of negligence required in the misdemeanor vs. the mens rea of knowingly in the more serious felonious assault.

You could try for aggravated assault, a lower felony, but still harder to prove since you also have to prove it was brought on by sudden passion or a sudden fit of rage.

Holy backwards definition batman...

Aggravated Assault:


A person is guilty of aggravated assault if he or she attempts to cause serious bodily injury to another or causes such injury purposely, knowingly, or recklessly under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life; or attempts to cause or purposely or knowingly causes bodily injury to another with a deadly weapon.

I'd say shooting a firearm into a vehicle which is not actively attempting to hit anyone at a person who is not attempting to actively kill anyone is most of the above definition.

[Lon]

The more I think about it, a case could be made for the more serious misdemeanor of assault due to recklessness if the jury determined a flesh wound to the leg was “serious physical harm”:


2903.13 Assault.
(B) No person shall recklessly cause serious physical harm to another or to another's unborn

I think we’ve seen and will continue to see juries not convicting cops when they feel the prosecutors “over charge”.

[Gray222]

The more I think about it, a case could be made for the more serious misdemeanor of assault due to recklessness if the jury determined a flesh wound to the leg was “serious physical harm”:



I think we’ve seen and will continue to see juries not convicting cops when they feel the prosecutors “over charge”.

Sure, I can agree.

The issue, as I've pointed out before and D.B. has agreed with me on this topic, is that people are doing the job who have no business doing the job and are not trained properly to do the job.

Case and point, the female officer in the video.

[scw2]

Tackling is a bad idea and should not be employed.

Too many bad things can happen from that level of force.

tackling the guy would likely have been a better outcome in this case though...

[Gray222]

tackling the guy would likely have been a better outcome in this case though...

Maybe, maybe not.

A controlled take down is always a better option than tackling, even if during a foot pursuit.

[Kukuforguns]

She hit her.

That's aggravated assault with a firearm, a felony.

My comment was intended to identify the crime she has been charged with committing. I really should have said, "She's been charged with . . ." I think she committed a felony and she should accept a plea agreement for a felony. I don't care if she does any time incarcerated. She has no business being a peace officer.

[Hambo]

Maybe, maybe not.

A controlled take down is always a better option than tackling, even if during a foot pursuit.

Agreed, but in this case a bad tackle would have been better than shooting, as would a choke, straight stick, or maybe even "let go before I hurt you real bad." (Last one is kind of tongue in cheek. Sorta...)

[Gray222]

Agreed, but in this case a bad tackle would have been better than shooting, as would a choke, straight stick, or maybe even "let go before I hurt you real bad." (Last one is kind of tongue in cheek. Sorta...)

Yeah, any force of non-deadly force should have been exhausted before the application of deadly force in the way of shooting.

[octagon]

More details and a detailed review of Shaver incident including police reports for those that want more info to form their opinion.

https://www.facebook.com/pg/taprack.tactical/posts/?ref=page_internal

[TheNewbie]

Wow that female officer shooting at the car.......a guy I know almost got shot by another cop in a similar situation.

Tackling can be good or bad, but if you do tackle be prepared to control the situation all the way through the arrest.

[TiroFijo]

Daniel Shaver shooting

https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5f6_1512716304

Opinions?

[TGS]

Daniel Shaver shooting

https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5f6_1512716304

Opinions?

See page 101. (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?17142-LE-UOF-Video-thread&p=682862&viewfull=1#post682862)

[TiroFijo]

Thanks for the note about who was issuing commands.

I thought they put the subject in an unwinnable situation. Their commands were too complex and specific for someone who was trying to move.....the subject was bound to screw them up.

Though I understand the whole furtive movement thing as a legal justification, i can also see why it went to trial.

IMO, it would be nearly impossible for anyone to survive such an encounter with such a "jumpy" officer. Conflicting commands such as "Keep your legs crossed! Hands up in the air! . . . Hands straight up in the air!. . . . Crawl towards me!... Don't move!" :rolleyes:
All directed (yelling, both officers) to a subject that was terrified, since "...or we are going to shoot you".

To me this is murder, pure and simple. I see absolutely no threat. I see a couple armed individuals that are clearly in complete control of an unarmed individual.

Why the cops just didn't go up when his hands were behind his head and throw the cuffs on?

The stupid commands just went on and on and on until the poor suspect twitched, then BANGx5.

But leaving the legal part, aside what can you possibly do in such a situation to avoid extra holes in your body?

[Peally]

But leaving the legal part, aside what can you possibly do in such a situation to avoid extra holes in your body?

Once you're in the hallway? Lay down frozen, take a literal nap, and hope for the best I guess.

[TiroFijo]

Once you're in the hallway? Lay down frozen, take a literal nap, and hope for the best I guess.

...that would also be "ignore the officer commands". Right?

[TGS]

IMO, it would be nearly impossible for anyone to survive such an encounter with such a "jumpy" officer. Conflicting commands such as "Keep your legs crossed! Hands up in the air! . . . Hands straight up in the air!. . . . Crawl towards me!... Don't move!" :rolleyes:
All directed (yelling, both officers) to a subject that was terrified, since "...or we are going to shoot you".

To me this is murder, pure and simple. I see absolutely no threat. I see a couple armed individuals that are clearly in complete control of an unarmed individual.

Why the cops just didn't go up when his hands were behind his head and throw the cuffs on?

The stupid commands just went on and on and on until the poor suspect twitched, then BANGx5.

But leaving the legal part, aside what can you possibly do in such a situation to avoid extra holes in your body?

First, the word "Murder" has a specific meaning in the United States' legal system. Granted there are differences between each state, but in general it'd be hard to classify this instance as murder.......which, unsurprisingly, is probably why a conviction was not obtained. Murder can usually be roughly classified into two different levels (degrees), being 1st and 2nd. 1st degree Murder is usually reserved for cases involving murder-for-hire, or premeditation. 2nd Degree murder, or other lesser degrees of murder, usually involve some amount of indifference to human life. In general, murder will usually require malice aforethought; it's an old-fashioned term, but in layman's terms can be summarized as having intent to commit a felony, unjust homicide, etc. In short.

A more appropriate charge would have been some degree of manslaughter. There are usually different levels (degrees) of manslaughter, and they tend to vary a lot depending on the state and what their "aggravating" factors are; those being factors which elevate the degree of your crime, such as injury to a pregnant woman/unborn, injury obtained while attempting to flee, etc. Lower degrees of manslaughter are often called involuntary manslaughter, or negligent homicide. This could include situations where someone was killed due to you operating a vehicle or machinery while under the influence of drugs, and in many states the phrase "Crime of passion" is used as a mitigating factor; such as inadvertently killing someone because you found him balls deep in your wife when you get home early from work. In many cases of manslaughter, specifically negligent homicide or involuntary manslaughter, the operative factor that separates it from murder is that you weren't necessarily intent on killing someone with your actions.

Not accounting for that state's penal code specifics, a charge of involuntary manslaughter would have been more appropriate as it's very clear the officer's didn't go there with the idea of killing someone; they didn't give him the commands with the intent to kill him. Rather, a prosecution can argue that the officers caused the death of the individual out of negligence.

So, saying "that was murder, pure and simple" is lacking a bit of nuance. Even if you judge the officers to have done wrong, there is ZERO fucking way you can equate what they did with murder. There's a reason they didn't get convicted of it.

Further, regarding some of your other assumptions:

In the United States, the use of deadly force is subject to several constitutional standards as interpreted by the Supreme Court.

One of these is that an officer's decisions cannot be judged using hindsight, but rather what was known to the officer at the time (as that is what information they used to make their decision). Your assessment that it's a couple armed individuals that are clearly in complete control of an unarmed individual does not conform to this standard, as the officers were dispatched to a man with a gun, and they encountered the subject who they had information could be armed.

Moreover, just because he looks to be terrified isn't a terribly strong argument against the officers. People feign shit all the time......to include surrender, the concealment of weapons, the presentation of weapons, etc.


...that would also be "ignore the officer commands". Right?

Ignoring an officer's commands is not, on it own, legal justification to shoot someone.

[TiroFijo]

Thanks for the hindsight on the "nuances"...

I know people feign stupid shit all the time, but in this case, I see a couple (group, really) armed officers that are clearly in complete control of an unarmed individual, had many reasonable choices to take him into custody, and finally cause a chain of events that needlessly killed him out of their own stupidity.

[TGS]

I see a couple (group, really) armed officers that...[snip]...finally cause a chain of events that needlessly killed him out of their own stupidity

I think a lot of people including law enforcement officers would agree with you on this.

[TiroFijo]

TGS, thanks a lot for the insight, really. Much appreciated.

[LockedBreech]

...in this case, I see a couple (group, really) armed officers that are clearly in complete control of an unarmed individual, had many reasonable choices to take him into custody, and finally cause a chain of events that needlessly killed him...

Prosecuted for a few years and am generally a very pro-LE person. I agree entirely. Unqualified officers like this create massive public resentment toward LE which makes my LE family and friends less safe.

[Kukuforguns]

TiroFijo:
In addition to everything TGS stated, it is important to recall that Shaver's wife has a wrongful death claim against the officers and department. I have little doubt that the case will be settled for a substantial amount of money. Money won't bring back Daniel Shaver, but neither would convicting Brailsford.

In addition, departments and academies around the country are going to use this video as an example of what NOT to do ("We're going to play Simon Says. We get to kill you if you mess up.").

[Lon]

I think a lot of people including law enforcement officers would agree with you on this.

It’s been my experience that most of these cops on trial should be thankful for 2 things:

1. Prosecutors who over charge.

2. Juries that aren’t comprised of just their fellow LEO’s.

I think there would be more convictions if prosecutors used a reckless or negligent homicide more often.

[Cory]

I think the majority of the issue in the Shaver UOF is the sergeant issuing commands, and how he choose to work the issue.

Instead of trying to make drunk suspects crawl toward them with crossed ankles.. he could have done a lot of other things. He could have easily had them face away with hands on head, kneel and then cross ankles, and then have officers approach them to restrain. Or any number of other things.

He tried to get the suspects to do too asinine a movement, and amped up the situation with "Or we'll kill you". This amped up his officers as well. I can't condemn the shooting officer, because I wasn't in his shoes. Had the guy turned out to be armed and making a move it would have been the right thing. I do however condemn the leader who had no idea what to do, and screwed his officer in the mean time.

-Cory

[psalms144.1]

Even if that was a "good shoot" what are the chances that she would have hit anything - all shots done at a mid-level "ready" looking over the pistol at the car. Her communications tell me everything I need to know about this officer, and I'm glad she's an "Ex" officer. Maybe she had bad training, maybe she should never have been issued a badge and gun - not for me to judge...

[octagon]

I think the majority of the issue in the Shaver UOF is the sergeant issuing commands, and how he choose to work the issue.

Instead of trying to make drunk suspects crawl toward them with crossed ankles.. he could have done a lot of other things. He could have easily had them face away with hands on head, kneel and then cross ankles, and then have officers approach them to restrain. Or any number of other things.

He tried to get the suspects to do too asinine a movement, and amped up the situation with "Or we'll kill you". This amped up his officers as well. I can't condemn the shooting officer, because I wasn't in his shoes. Had the guy turned out to be armed and making a move it would have been the right thing. I do however condemn the leader who had no idea what to do, and screwed his officer in the mean time.

-Cory

This exactly. The officer who shot has a rifle to his face and gives no commands yet is taking all the wrath for reacting to a furtive movement and every other part of the police action. I don't have any issue at all with removing the suspects from near the door of the hotel room involved but the way it was done is the issue beyond the bad choices Shaver made.

[Coyotesfan97]

The jury instructions included the option for manslaughter and aggravated assault.

[AMC]

TiroFijo:
In addition to everything TGS stated, it is important to recall that Shaver's wife has a wrongful death claim against the officers and department. I have little doubt that the case will be settled for a substantial amount of money. Money won't bring back Daniel Shaver, but neither would convicting Brailsford.

In addition, departments and academies around the country are going to use this video as an example of what NOT to do ("We're going to play Simon Says. We get to kill you if you mess up.").

Unfortunately, most will not. Frankly, most academies and their instructors will remain blissfully unaware of this case and others, and will keep on keepin' on. I've spoken to two of our full time range staff about the Shaver shooting. Neither had heard of it. Maybe others have, but it damn sure isn't being dissected and discussed. For that matter, our own shootings aren't either, as policy. Back in the '80's our city attorney convinced our department that AAR's are bad juju, and will be used against us, so there are literally no lessons learned. Police reports of shootings aren't even shared with training staff. I don't think we're that unique, either.
Don't get me wrong. I think this state of affairs is grossly negligent, and would change it if I could. Which is probably why I'm not in such a position. :cool:

[Erick Gelhaus]

Re the Broward County OIS thread - yesterday was our use of force instructor meeting / prep day for next quarter's training. On the defensive tactics side, one of the specific subjects being covered was one on one tackling.

On the Mesa discussion, my issue with that event is the nature, quality of the commands given. Different commands, directions I believe would have produced a different outcome. But that's just me. I have had disagreements with tactical team guys (though not mine) who believe the commands were good.

[TheNewbie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NUhZM9oACM


https://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/468270006-DA-wont-charge-2-Kan-officers-in-armed-mans-death-video-released/

[Gray222]

Don't remember if this was posted. Deputies cleared.
https://youtu.be/1odhGVDByhw

[HCM]

http://kutv.com/news/local/released-dash-cam-footage-shows-police-firing-in-response-to-alleged-shooting


http://youtu.be/FuDvph14nmA

So... full auto fire with a busy highway as the backstop and two bystanders struck .....

[blues]

That was painful to watch on a variety of levels.

[cmbarny2]

Don't remember if this was posted. Deputies cleared.

Personal opinion, I didn't like him getting that close to the dude to use the taser. That makes a case for a longer distance LL like a 12ga bean bag because that could have easily turned out different for that deputy at that distance.

[TC215]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwlBQx7JHV8&has_verified=1

https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/crime/2018/04/25/louisville-metro-police-shoot-robbery-suspect-body-camera-footage/550519002/

[LockedBreech]

The media frustrates me. They go for the clickbait about how many times the officers shot instead of starting off by noting the suspect was armed and apparently firing back. Accurate title for the article would describe a gunfight between an armed criminal and police, not police "shooting someone 20 times"

[TGS]

http://komonews.com/news/local/video-released-of-ice-ax-takedown-seattle-officer-now-faces-discipline

EDP waving around ice axe, Seattle PD trailing him across town for an extended period.

One officer finally decides to end it and tackles him. He's now being disciplined for failure to attempt more de-escalation prior to going hands on.

[AMC]

One of his own supervisors filed the complaint against him. If there was ever a clearer illustration that the real purpose of De-Escalation policies and training is to stop all law enforcement in favor of law encouragement, I don't know of it. Just show up late and document the Carnage in a report...that's the clear message being sent.

So we were just notified of the implementation of California SDCS (Stops Data Collection System), on July 1st. After every single stop or detention, self initiated or dispatched, you'll have to fill out a 44 question app, with a 1 or 2 line narrative, of what you did, why, demographics of all parties, and your perception of the other parties gender expression. Once you're used to it, it takes about 5-7 minutes. We're also implementing E-Cite.... citations to be done on the smart phone and printed in the car. Those take around 20 minutes. And between the SDCS system and tagging your body cam video, they've had to acknowledge that in this day of police ambushes and assassination, looking at your phone is unsafe in public. So go straight back to the station after every stop and enter everything on a desktop. Should only take 45-60 minutes then. Tell me, Mr and Mrs Public.......what message is being given to your cops?

[Kyle Reese]

http://komonews.com/news/local/video-released-of-ice-ax-takedown-seattle-officer-now-faces-discipline

EDP waving around ice axe, Seattle PD trailing him across town for an extended period.

One officer finally decides to end it and tackles him. He's now being disciplined for failure to attempt more de-escalation prior to going hands on.I'd be shopping for a new agency.

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk

[txdpd]

I'd be shopping for a new agency.

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He should find a new agency, the bullshit discipline is after the fact, I'd be more worried about the other cops that weren't doing anything. If he was going to get his peepee slapped it should be for being a moron and tackling a suspect with a deadly weapon in hand. That's not brave or courageous, it's just stupid. That said, out of all the officers present he was the only one smart enough to do something besides crowd the bad guy, and wait for him to turn around and escalate it to deadly force. I feel for the guy, I'm glad he didn't get hurt and the administrative pencil whipping hurts a lot less that picking up criminal charges.

At the end of the day I guess it's just a shoplift and they should have just taken a report.

[LockedBreech]

OIS in Casper, WY today just up the highway from me and very close to where my brother works. Too close to home. Will update when they release vid (edit: probably should have waited until that to post this but I’m a bit distressed, sorry) and other updates but we’ve all been following this all day. Dirtbag KIA, officer critical. I have two friends on this PD.

Very unusual for WY, and profoundly unusual for one Wyoming city to face two OIS incidents in 2-3 months.

http://trib.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/man-dead-police-officer-critically-injured-in-east-casper-shootout/article_c14ecd3e-1490-5e7b-8c3d-baa60e996a8c.html#tracking-source=home-top-story



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[LockedBreech]

OIS in Casper, WY today just up the highway from me and very close to where my brother works. Too close to home. Will update when they release vid (edit: probably should have waited until that to post this but I’m a bit distressed, sorry) and other updates but we’ve all been following this all day. Dirtbag KIA, officer critical. I have two friends on this PD.

Very unusual for WY, and profoundly unusual for one Wyoming city to face two OIS incidents in 2-3 months.

http://trib.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/man-dead-police-officer-critically-injured-in-east-casper-shootout/article_c14ecd3e-1490-5e7b-8c3d-baa60e996a8c.html#tracking-source=home-top-story



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First video released, I know this PD has body cams so I expect those will be coming. Perp has been ID'd as a 38-year old sovereign citizen. He started this gunfight by suddenly opening fire on a vehicle complaint stop. He had his brother's kids in the back of the car.

http://trib.com/graphic-video-casper-police-exchange-gunfire-with-suspect/youtube_28cd7629-5cc4-556d-af3e-0b347fe3a42a.html#tracking-source=home-trending

[HCountyGuy]

Some footage from a recent OIS in Atlanta.

https://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/exclusive-video-shows-moment-suspect-rushed-officer-moments-before-shooting/745625692

As a side note, we’ve had 11 OISes in as many days here in the Atlanta area.

[HCM]

First video released, I know this PD has body cams so I expect those will be coming. Perp has been ID'd as a 38-year old sovereign citizen. He started this gunfight by suddenly opening fire on a vehicle complaint stop. He had his brother's kids in the back of the car.

http://trib.com/graphic-video-casper-police-exchange-gunfire-with-suspect/youtube_28cd7629-5cc4-556d-af3e-0b347fe3a42a.html#tracking-source=home-trending

Apparently the officers were responding to a complaint the suspect was letting the kids drive.

[LockedBreech]

Apparently the officers were responding to a complaint the suspect was letting the kids drive.

Correct, I believe a 3 and 6 year old.

On a happier note the officer's GoFundMe (I confirmed it was legit through the department) is doing well and they're overwhelmed with blood donations. It's hard to emphasize enough how rare it is for an officer to be seriously injured like this in WY. It's jarring. I can't imagine what it would be like to live somewhere this is commonplace.

[blues]

Correct, I believe a 3 and 6 year old.

On a happier note the officer's GoFundMe (I confirmed it was legit through the department) is doing well and they're overwhelmed with blood donations. It's hard to emphasize enough how rare it is for an officer to be seriously injured like this in WY. It's jarring. I can't imagine what it would be like to live somewhere this is commonplace.

Same in Maine where they just lost their first LEO in 30 years a week or so back.

[LockedBreech]

Just an update, the officer now ID’d as Jacob Carlson, a 3-year vet and US Army vet, has apparently pulled through the worst of it. Good guys: 1 Bad guys: 0


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[LockedBreech]

http://k2radio.com/graphic-videos-footage-of-police-shootout-on-may-6th-in-casper/?trackback=fbshare_mobile_top

Additional footage of the May 6 2018 Casper WY shooting


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[MI Law]

Calm, collected, decisive officer.

https://www.detroitnews.com/videos/news/local/wayne-county/2018/05/10/police-chase-melvindale-dearborn-ends-death/34769431/ (https://www.detroitnews.com/videos/news/local/wayne-county/2018/05/10/police-chase-melvindale-dearborn-ends-death/34769431/)

Dearborn — The man who forced a lockdown at Beaumont Hospital Wednesday night (https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/wayne-county/2018/05/09/shooting-lockdown-beaumont-dearborn/34746217/) killed himself after a domestic dispute with an ex-girlfriend and her new boyfriend, police said.


The incident began around 8:20 p.m. at a house in the 3600 block of Karen Street in Melvindale when the 27-year-old suspect showed up at his former girlfriend’s residence, Dearborn Police Chief Ronald Haddad said. Her current boyfriend intervened in their dispute and an altercation occurred.


“They had difficulty in the past, one was a current boyfriend and the other was the former boyfriend," Haddad said. “The decedent was armed with an AR-15 and a handgun. It was also discovered this morning there was a third gun tucked in the car.”


Haddad said the suspect, whom he identified as Allen Park resident Ruben Salinas, engaged in a high-speed chase with the boyfriend through Melvindale to Dearborn, firing dozens of shots in the process.


At this point, an officer saw Salinas pursuing the boyfriend, a 30-year-old Grosse Pointe Woods resident, and followed. Once they arrived at Beaumont Hospital in Dearborn, officers tried to end the pursuit by ramming the police vehicle into Salinas’ car, Haddad said.


After three hits to the back of his vehicle, Salinas took his own life with a self-inflicted gunshot wound, Haddad said.

“Upon stopping him, the decedent took his life inside his vehicle near the north driveway of the emergency entrance,” Haddad said. “The hospital was locked down as a precaution. There was never any threat to anyone in the hospital and I want to quickly dismiss any active shooter scenario that was reported early on.”


The boyfriend was treated for minor injuries and released and the girlfriend was unharmed. Police said Salinas was a registered CPL holder and the weapons were properly registered. He had no prior altercations with police nor a history of mental illness noted, they said.


Melvindale police did not comment on the incident and said the investigation is ongoing and will be a collaborative effort with Dearborn Police and Michigan State Police.


It was originally reported the hospital was on lockdown because of a nearby armed robbery on Michigan Avenue and Outer Drive.


Police said the miscommunication was due to the busy night the department was having. Haddad said there were 96 calls for service, 68 citations and four other arrests Wednesday night leading into Thursday morning.

[HCountyGuy]

OIS from Tulsa, OK

Somehow I doubt this was the officer’s first rodeo.


https://youtu.be/z8SBOLoA4Fw

[blues]

Just another day in the office...

[TheNewbie]

OIS from Tulsa, OK

Somehow I doubt this was the officer’s first rodeo.


https://youtu.be/z8SBOLoA4Fw

Do we know the back story or additional facts?

[peterb]

Do we know the back story or additional facts?

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/crimewatch/tulsa-police-release-video-of-fatal-officer-involved-shooting/article_7c850ca5-7ece-5ab3-a33e-d496b40264fb.html

[iWander]

Jackson, Mississippi officer is attacked by two men on a traffic stop and appears to be shot at by one with an AK but kills one and the other is captured. Great movement and tactics!

http://www.wjtv.com/news/metro/jpd-officer-involved-shooting-wjtv-exclusive-video/1170315492

[John Hearne]

Jackson, Mississippi officer is attacked by two men on a traffic stop and appears to be shot at by one with an AK but kills one and the other is captured. Great movement and tactics!

http://www.wjtv.com/news/metro/jpd-officer-involved-shooting-wjtv-exclusive-video/1170315492

Looks like a SouthNarc 2-on-1 ECQC evolution.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Looks like a SouthNarc 2-on-1 ECQC evolution.

And yet, there are still family members insisting the Bad Guys did not do anything because ...

[Hambo]

Another angle on the Jackson shooting.

http://www.wsfa.com/story/38171815/exclusive-surveillance-video-never-before-seen-angle-of-deadly-officer-involved-shooting-at-jackson-ms-gas-station

[blues]

Another angle on the Jackson shooting.

http://www.wsfa.com/story/38171815/exclusive-surveillance-video-never-before-seen-angle-of-deadly-officer-involved-shooting-at-jackson-ms-gas-station

Thanks for posting that up, Hambo. I was looking for another view of that incident after watching the originally linked video.

So glad that the officer not only survived, but prevailed.

[Mark D]

OIS from Tulsa, OK

Somehow I doubt this was the officer’s first rodeo.


https://youtu.be/z8SBOLoA4Fw

Impressive composure.

[Flamingo]

Here is one from Seattle:

https://youtu.be/iaxjRR3zy4U
https://youtu.be/iaxjRR3zy4U

[Coyotesfan97]

Pull a squad behind the suspect car and block it in. Don’t approach on the driver side when multiple guns are covering the suspect from the passenger side. Don’t go into Code Black.

[AMC]

Pull a squad behind the suspect car and block it in. Don’t approach on the driver side when multiple guns are covering the suspect from the passenger side. Don’t go into Code Black.

Ahyup. How about...don't even approach the car! The guy just shot at a cop! We know he's armed! Felony stop...call him out to you! That could've gone way worse...and I hate relying on luck. Don't get me wrong...I've seen worse here. Our department used to be known for the felony stop procedure of: rush past the drawn guns and pull everyone out through the wing windows, then commence the wood shampoo!

[HCountyGuy]

Some body camera footage from the active shooter incident at Trump’s resort in Florida.


https://youtu.be/D2x9lLpInlI

[txdpd]

Our department used to be known for the felony stop procedure of: rush past the drawn guns and pull everyone out through the wing windows, then commence the wood shampoo!

That's how Mark Nix in Dallas got killed. Unfortunately cops running up to cars on felony stops still happens around here.

If you're going to do something stupid like run up to the car, bring your balls with you and handle whatever you got yourself into. Running up to a car, then standing around, repeatedly screaming the same thing over and over, and waiting for him to find his pistol and pop off the first shot, is getting stuck in the goofy loop. If you're committed to not doing anything until the suspect really really really forces your hand, do it from a good safe(r) distance.

[Coyotesfan97]

Ahyup. How about...don't even approach the car! The guy just shot at a cop! We know he's armed! Felony stop...call him out to you! That could've gone way worse...and I hate relying on luck. Don't get me wrong...I've seen worse here. Our department used to be known for the felony stop procedure of: rush past the drawn guns and pull everyone out through the wing windows, then commence the wood shampoo!

Lets not get all crazy there AMC huh. Just rush the car. It’ll work out. Then we can do high fives when our terrible tactics worked out and we got lucky.

Block the car in with a Tahoe from behind. Use it for cover deal with suspect as needed. The guys that approached it could’ve used the vehicles the suspect hit for cover initially.

[cmbarny2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7mw2EeZn-w&t=3s

The caption of the video says it all, but this dudes suing for excessive force. After watching the video I can't see where the excessive part is.

[peterb]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7mw2EeZn-w&t=3s

The caption of the video says it all, but this dudes suing for excessive force. After watching the video I can't see where the excessive part is.

Not knowing any of the background........Why the “look at me now” and chest push when the guy was talking? You’ve got to know that’ll trigger a reaction.

[CleverNickname]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_by1fFSO38
Naked guy attacks Richmond VA officer who attempts to tase and then fatally shoots him.

[blues]

That was one batshit mf.

[scjbash]

That was one batshit mf.

The part where he was doing the snow angel thing on the blacktop is interesting because a guy in a similar state of batshittiness did the same thing in my front yard. That incident was also in the summer and sans snow.

[blues]

The part where he was doing the snow angel thing on the blacktop is interesting because a guy in a similar state of batshittiness did the same thing in my front yard. That incident was also in the summer and sans snow.

Must be endemic to the Virginias...

[Larry Sellers]

Must be endemic to the Virginias...

It’s up here in CT as well, it’s a pretty common sight when the natives smoke bath salts...also creates OT when guys who aren’t heads up get tossed around and put on light duty...


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[LSP552]

Have we done this one?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/post-nation/wp/2018/06/06/at-first-glance-this-looks-like-a-mistake-video-shows-arizona-officers-beating-unarmed-man/

[blues]

Have we done this one?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/news/post-nation/wp/2018/06/06/at-first-glance-this-looks-like-a-mistake-video-shows-arizona-officers-beating-unarmed-man/


https://youtu.be/ZteDlU0GXfs

[TheNewbie]

This is insane. I have true respect for those of you like AMC who work in these crazy environments.


https://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/476448006-Video-Angry-crowd-surrounds-SF-cop-after-OIS-of-armed-suspect/


https://youtu.be/fYQac758acw

[TC215]

I would hate to work there.

Also, thought this was interesting from the article:


Barcenas was shot by San Francisco police before in a 2012 incident in the Mission District. In that case, he was accused of pulling a Tec-9 assault pistol on current Assistant Chief Toney Chaplin, who at the time worked on the Gang Task Force, The Chronicle reported this week.

Guess he didn’t learn after the first time.

[AMC]

I was wondering if someone was going to post this one. Yeah, interesting history on that guy. Not gonna comment on the shooting at all, since it's an open investigation, but I will address the aftermath. It's disturbing to me on several levels. The fact that a crowd of people thinks it's acceptable to surround and assault an armed cop who was just involved in a use of deadly force shows that a significant part of our population is no longer operatively 'civilized', in the way that we previously understood the term. That, and the difference in the response of the backup officers from how that situation would have been handled even 10 years ago, does not give me hope for the future of LE in this town.

[Erick Gelhaus]

The fact that a crowd of people thinks it's acceptable to surround and assault an armed cop who was just involved in a use of deadly force shows that a significant part of our population is no longer operatively 'civilized', in the way that we previously understood the term. That, and the difference in the response of the backup officers from how that situation would have been handled even 10 years ago, does not give me hope for the future of LE in this town.

In spte of "liking" your post, even though it is spot on accurate and I agree completely I don't like it.

From a supervisory perspective there are multiple re-training issues. Not the least of which is a failure (willful inability?) to secure the suspect and the scene. "My radio doesn't work"??? And, as mentioned, there is the mob of supporters for the criminally feral.

[AMC]

One of the things I've noticed in the last few years, and especially since our Use of Force policy mandated De-Escalation in virtually every circumstance, is a deep reluctance to resort to even controlling levels of force...to put hands on people for any reason. It's hands off....until it's time to shoot. This all or nothing mentality is leading to inevitable problems. Failure to establish control early is actually allowing, even encouraging, these situations to escalate further. My peers and I were discussing how a backup response to such a situation even 10 years ago would've resulted in members of that mob being tossed ass over teakettle, and numerous wood shampoos being administered. One command followed by 36 inches of hickory. That scene was not safe at all...medics won't come in, evidence (the gun!) can be lost, cops can be injured. Bad news all around. There's a time to de-escalate....that wasn't it.

[MI Law]

In spte of "liking" your post, even though it is spot on accurate and I agree completely I don't like it.

From a supervisory perspective there are multiple re-training issues. Not the least of which is a failure (willful inability?) to secure the suspect and the scene. "My radio doesn't work"??? And, as mentioned, there is the mob of supporters for the criminally feral.

I agree. I have a few issues/notes with this video:

1) This is a great video to show pre-flight cues. That dude looked like he was fixing to run from the start. I think the officer knew that.

2) That scene needed to be controlled better. Batons should have been out and working to move the crowd back. I don't blame the officer involved, but his partners seemed reluctant to use force to secure a crime scene (with a missing gun) and a bad guy.

3) The gold badge that showed up and said a city-wide response isn't needed was wrong. My collar and sleeves say I'm a supervisor but I don't doubt the man on scene, that's just wrong. He's there, he sees the situation, and his request for more officers is right. If, in hindsight, the request is unnecessary then you can address it in an AAR.

4) This video is a good example of my change to using my gun hand to handle non-essential tasks. It was hammered into me in my early years to use my gun hand for nothing other than gun stuff. But after watching countless OIS videos, it seems like many people neglect to drop the non-essential junk in their non-dominate hand and instead choose to shoot one-handed. In this case the officer keeps his shoulder mic in his hand while shooting instead of getting a proper two-handed grip (it's not his fault, it's a training scar IMO). I still accept paperwork, etc. with my non-dominant hand, but hold it in my dominant hand after that. If I have to draw then I have no choice but to drop the stuff and my non-dominant hand will be free to establish a proper grip. Pretty much the only thing I use my non-dominant hand now for is my flashlight.

[Erick Gelhaus]

LAPD Metro OIS from last month. While the shooting is interesting, I'm far more impressed with how they dissected, presented the video and the event. That includes addressing the co-suspect who retrieved and fled with the dropped gun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx_foWAmZpY&feature=player_embedded

MORE agencies need to educate this way.

[LSP552]

One of the things I've noticed in the last few years, and especially since our Use of Force policy mandated De-Escalation in virtually every circumstance, is a deep reluctance to resort to even controlling levels of force...to put hands on people for any reason. It's hands off....until it's time to shoot. This all or nothing mentality is leading to inevitable problems. Failure to establish control early is actually allowing, even encouraging, these situations to escalate further. My peers and I were discussing how a backup response to such a situation even 10 years ago would've resulted in members of that mob being tossed ass over teakettle, and numerous wood shampoos being administered. One command followed by 36 inches of hickory. That scene was not safe at all...medics won't come in, evidence (the gun!) can be lost, cops can be injured. Bad news all around. There's a time to de-escalate....that wasn't it.

Very well said! I just wish the political management in most places would listen.

Controlling the scene early was one of the first things I learned when I started policing in 74. Failing to do that isn’t ever a good idea.

[Doc_Glock]

LAPD Metro OIS from last month. While the shooting is interesting, I'm far more impressed with how they dissected, presented the video and the event. That includes addressing the co-suspect who retrieved and fled with the dropped gun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx_foWAmZpY&feature=player_embedded

MORE agencies need to educate this way.

Vegas PD has been doing something similar, but not nearly as polished.


https://youtu.be/1cAGw15LYhs

[TGS]

More solid work by Tulsa PD. That Sgt is a rock star.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzociekIWRA&feature=youtu.be

[UNM1136]

More solid work by Tulsa PD. That Sgt is a rock star.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzociekIWRA&feature=youtu.be

Both of them are...

pat

[peterb]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-met-man-shot-and-killed-by-police-identified-additional-protests-planned-20180715-story.html

“In the police video, two officers approach the suspect, who appears to be wearing a holster, as he stands by another officer. As one officer grabs for the suspect's wrist, the suspect pulls away and runs. The video, which has all faces blurred and no audio, pauses on a shot of what appears to be a gun on the suspect's hip. The shooting of the suspect is not shown in the video.”

[blues]

Fast forward to 2:55 in the clip below for some slo-mo shots. Sure looks like he was intending to draw the firearm.



https://youtu.be/0RUOzjZ2WPw?t=173

[HCountyGuy]

Fast forward to 2:55 in the clip below for some slo-mo shots. Sure looks like he was intending to draw the firearm.



https://youtu.be/0RUOzjZ2WPw?t=173

Oh that was undoubtedly an attempt to draw on the officers.

I haven’t been very up on the news lately, but is this the shooting they’re currently protesting in Chicago?

If so, screw those idiots.

[11B10]

I've watched it at least 10 times and fail to see how anyone could interpret his moves as anything BUT an attempt to draw his gun. What's the question?

[peterb]

Agree that it looks like an attempt to draw, and that the shooting appears to be justified at that point. But prior to that, was he stopped only because he appeared to be carrying a concealed pistol? Would a white man suspected of carrying have been treated the same way?

[HCountyGuy]

Would a white man suspected of carrying have been treated the same way?

In Chicago? More than likely.

Anywhere else typically depends on the local climate relative to citizens carrying.

[SWAT Lt.]

Agree that it looks like an attempt to draw, and that the shooting appears to be justified at that point. But prior to that, was he stopped only because he appeared to be carrying a concealed pistol? Would a white man suspected of carrying have been treated the same way?

This occurred in Chicago. Illinois. They have very restrictive gun possession and carry laws. They have a LOT of shootings and murders there; over 1400 people shot and 270 murders so far this year. Yes, a white person "only" suspected of carrying a concealed firearm would have been stopped and checked as well. If the white person reacted the same to being stopped (resisted, pulled away from the officers, fled, and attempted to draw a firearm they clearly saw he had) then he would have "been treated the same way".

[TC215]

From Las Vegas:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&persist_app=1&noapp=1&v=iZ4khQyvpRs

[TSH]

From Las Vegas:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&persist_app=1&noapp=1&v=iZ4khQyvpRs

Guy’s taking this whole “30th Anniversary of Die Hard” thing pretty seriously.

[LockedBreech]

From Las Vegas:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&persist_app=1&noapp=1&v=iZ4khQyvpRs

Learned a few lessons from the video, the first being “do not shoot at THAT guy or he will run you down like the scavenger you are.”

Glad all cops are fine.


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[iWander]

Learned a few lessons from the video, the first being “do not shoot at THAT guy or he will run down down like the scavenger you are.

Glad all cops are fine.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkAnd an adrenaline dump while being shot at + returning fire while driving = empty gun at most critical time of pursuit

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[LockedBreech]

And an adrenaline dump while being shot at + returning fire while driving = empty gun at most critical time of pursuit

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And a wrong way mag insert, but I thought he recovered decently. The run up on the vehicle wasn’t ideal either but I don’t wanna MMQB too bad.


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[blues]

^^^^Nicely done. (referring to Las Vegas video)

[TC215]

And a wrong way mag insert, but I thought he recovered decently. The run up on the vehicle wasn’t ideal either but I don’t wanna MMQB too bad.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yeah, the reload wasn’t pretty, and his weak-hand thumb placement made me cringe a little, but in the end he was a beast and took the fight to the bad guys without backing down.

[LockedBreech]

Yeah, the reload wasn’t pretty, and his weak-hand thumb placement made me cringe a little, but in the end he was a beast and took the fight to the bad guys without backing down.

Absolutely, I hope his commanding officer puts him in for the Combat Cross or whatever the LVMPD equivalent is. Had plenty of pants-crapping situations and plenty of opportunity to understandably let other units take the lead. Warrior mindset.

[einherjarvalk]

Yeah, the reload wasn’t pretty, and his weak-hand thumb placement made me cringe a little, but in the end he was a beast and took the fight to the bad guys without backing down.

Almost looks like he fell back on his training...and that training happened to be for a revolver.

Still, proof that awkward decisive action can be better than perfection done with timidity in a heated moment.

[Doc_Glock]

From Las Vegas:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&persist_app=1&noapp=1&v=iZ4khQyvpRs

Briefing. Good job officers.


https://youtu.be/W9699n4Hd2g

[einherjarvalk]

A few other equipment things I just noticed on a rewatch:
-the gun used is a Glock 17 Gen 3 RTF2 (you can see the fishgill slide cuts during the reload) but he's got a grip sleeve on it, which seems like it'd defeat the purpose of buying an RTF2 gun
-the WML is a Blackhawk Night-Ops Xiphos NTX light, which I'd never heard of before looking up what it was, for apparently good reason
-the sights are XS Big Dot sights

Certainly nothing I'd have ever expected to see on an LE gun, but as stated, sometimes mindset is all you need.

[underhook]

That Vegas cop. Brass balls. He could walk around in a pink ballet outfit and retain his man card after that. Amazing respect for someone that drives fast into gunfire.

He pulled off the slowest most screwed up reload in history while under fire and still won.

[LockedBreech]

A few other equipment things I just noticed on a rewatch:
-the gun used is a Glock 17 Gen 3 RTF2 (you can see the fishgill slide cuts during the reload) but he's got a grip sleeve on it, which seems like it'd defeat the purpose of buying an RTF2 gun
-the WML is a Blackhawk Night-Ops Xiphos NTX light, which I'd never heard of before looking up what it was, for apparently good reason
-the sights are XS Big Dot sights

Certainly nothing I'd have ever expected to see on an LE gun, but as stated, sometimes mindset is all you need.

That's the big sell point to a quality gun. No matter what variant or how much questionable gear is attached, it's still gonna spit 17+1 9mms and do a pretty good job at it.

[TheNewbie]

A few other equipment things I just noticed on a rewatch:
-the gun used is a Glock 17 Gen 3 RTF2 (you can see the fishgill slide cuts during the reload) but he's got a grip sleeve on it, which seems like it'd defeat the purpose of buying an RTF2 gun
-the WML is a Blackhawk Night-Ops Xiphos NTX light, which I'd never heard of before looking up what it was, for apparently good reason
-the sights are XS Big Dot sights

Certainly nothing I'd have ever expected to see on an LE gun, but as stated, sometimes mindset is all you need.

LVMPD has a progressive (in a good way) firearms policy. I did some research on it for a college paper. If an agency that size can do it, anybody can.

[Shellback]

Well done Metro.

[HCountyGuy]

That officer is a hunter, plain and simple, and the kind of officer we need more of. Waited til the pursuit got off of the busy main streets to start returning fire and do so with gusto. The timing and efficiency of that reload may have been FUBARed, but I’m not going to act as though I’d have my shit together any better given the circumstances.

I’d be honored to buy him a drink.

[LockedBreech]

I wish I hadn't read YouTube and Facebook comments. In what rational mindset could a human being possibly not find this a justified shoot?!

As an added bonus, ABC News clipped off the first three minutes with dozens of shots fired at the officer to make the clip look like the officer just went aggro during a pursuit.

Get really tired of this media narrative. I'm not one of these 'the left wing media is conspiring' people at all, but I think the bias against police in particular has become apparent and overwhelming.

[Jim Watson]

Isn't there a better way to communicate than a push to talk hand microphone?
I mean you might have your hands full of gun, steering wheel, handcuffs, suspect, etc., etc.

I guess not, I've never seen anything else (except on fully dressed out SWAT.)

[John Hearne]

Isn't there a better way to communicate than a push to talk hand microphone?
I mean you might have your hands full of gun, steering wheel, handcuffs, suspect, etc., etc.

I guess not, I've never seen anything else (except on fully dressed out SWAT.)

There isn't much in the off-the-shelf category. Several systems have been offered over the years but I haven't seen one for sale in a while.

I have a friend who is an uber radio geek. He's rigged up systems using a free button on the steering wheel and a secondary microphone but it's custom work.

I used to build our patrol cars with a foot switch for siren control which was a true hands-free solution but nobody liked it except me.

[Peally]

Drifting the thread but it'd be interesting to see a decent tongue/mouth actuated radio like they use in aviation become popular.

[GyroF-16]

Drifting the thread but it'd be interesting to see a decent tongue/mouth actuated radio like they use in aviation become popular.

Interesting... I’ve worked in avaition for the last 30 years, and have never seen or heard of such a thing.

[Peally]

Interesting... I’ve worked in avaition for the last 30 years, and have never seen or heard of such a thing.

"Aviation" might have been a little too generic and off base. My google fu is weak right now but I know they exist dammit!

Even a throat mic with a PTT on a glove or god knows where is less old school than the 90s handhelds I see cops around here using.

[Jim Watson]

Drifting the thread but it'd be interesting to see a decent tongue/mouth actuated radio like they use in aviation become popular.

I didn't mean to drift.
I thought trying to manage the mike was scarier than shooting out his own windshield.

[Malamute]

Briefing. Good job officers.


https://youtu.be/W9699n4Hd2g

Link didnt work.

Try this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9699n4Hd2g

[HCountyGuy]

Athens-Clarke police have to restrain child during arrest of the boy’s father following a domestic dispute. Before release of body cam there was the typical cell-phone video from a family member showing the police with the boy on the ground, being used to claim “police brutality”.


https://youtu.be/GDtz3g5b2B0

[TheNewbie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3R40nzHb6mA

[LockedBreech]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3R40nzHb6mA

What kills me about this shoot is that you can SEE in the video where the hyper-criticism of police officers has worked its way into the officer's head, especially in a place like Maryland. He had multiple occasions where the use of force was authorized and put himself in a pretty bad position continually retreating and opting not to use force.

Blame is 100% on the bad guy, I just wish an officer could defend his life and health without knowing that no matter how much he tries to avoid it, he's going to get crucified in the press.

[Doug MacRay]

After two failed taser deployments, a Utah officer resorted to firing into the lower legs of a robbery suspect. I just thought this video was relevant because of the "why didn't you just shoot their legs?" rhetoric that comes along with nearly every fatal OIS. Not surprisingly, some of the same people that complain about not "just shooting the suspect's legs first" are now complaining about someone being shot in their legs first. SIGH

https://youtu.be/n5eywLoLCJs

News article:

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/08/08/utah-police-officer-who/

As a bonus, it turns out this officer has done this same thing in the past (shot a suspect armed with a "melee" weapon in the leg on purpose). I can't really blame him for this kind of reaction, despite it being entirely out of policy. And apparently his bosses don't mind, given that he still has a job after two of these shootings.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/08/07/do-you-want-me-take-her/

I'm honestly surprised we don't see more of these incidents. And I'm definitely not surprised that the people who complain about suspects not getting shot in the legs (as opposed to the torso or face) often manage to complain about suspects getting shot in the legs. Oh well...

[Sherman A. House DDS]

After two failed taser deployments, a Utah officer resorted to firing into the lower legs of a robbery suspect. I just thought this video was relevant because of the "why didn't you just shoot their legs?" rhetoric that comes along with nearly every fatal OIS. Not surprisingly, some of the same people that complain about not "just shooting the suspect's legs first" are now complaining about someone being shot in their legs first. SIGH

https://youtu.be/n5eywLoLCJs

News article:

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/08/08/utah-police-officer-who/

As a bonus, it turns out this officer has done this same thing in the past (shot a suspect armed with a "melee" weapon in the leg on purpose). I can't really blame him for this kind of reaction, despite it being entirely out of policy. And apparently his bosses don't mind, given that he still has a job after two of these shootings.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/08/07/do-you-want-me-take-her/

I'm honestly surprised we don't see more of these incidents. And I'm definitely not surprised that the people who complain about suspects not getting shot in the legs (as opposed to the torso or face) often manage to complain about suspects getting shot in the legs. Oh well...

When the suspect starts rolling up the taser leads...it’s going to be a bad day for everyone involved.


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[LockedBreech]

After two failed taser deployments, a Utah officer resorted to firing into the lower legs of a robbery suspect. I just thought this video was relevant because of the "why didn't you just shoot their legs?" rhetoric that comes along with nearly every fatal OIS. Not surprisingly, some of the same people that complain about not "just shooting the suspect's legs first" are now complaining about someone being shot in their legs first. SIGH

https://youtu.be/n5eywLoLCJs

News article:

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/08/08/utah-police-officer-who/

As a bonus, it turns out this officer has done this same thing in the past (shot a suspect armed with a "melee" weapon in the leg on purpose). I can't really blame him for this kind of reaction, despite it being entirely out of policy. And apparently his bosses don't mind, given that he still has a job after two of these shootings.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/08/07/do-you-want-me-take-her/

I'm honestly surprised we don't see more of these incidents. And I'm definitely not surprised that the people who complain about suspects not getting shot in the legs (as opposed to the torso or face) often manage to complain about suspects getting shot in the legs. Oh well...

The uniform outrage in the comments is a bit surprising to me (shouldn't be at this point).

Do I think it was substandard scene handling? A little, yeah. He seemed pretty poor at deescalation. But I'm always really hesitant to critique having never been in that situation.

That being said, she was encouraging police to attack her, refused to disarm, stepped toward officers multiple time, and he tried a taser deployment. And history is pretty clear that someone that close with a screwdriver can do some real damage in a hurry.

If the department and city have faith in him, they know him better than we do. And nobody died...

[HCountyGuy]

After two failed taser deployments, a Utah officer resorted to firing into the lower legs of a robbery suspect. I just thought this video was relevant because of the "why didn't you just shoot their legs?" rhetoric that comes along with nearly every fatal OIS. Not surprisingly, some of the same people that complain about not "just shooting the suspect's legs first" are now complaining about someone being shot in their legs first. SIGH

https://youtu.be/n5eywLoLCJs

News article:

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/08/08/utah-police-officer-who/

As a bonus, it turns out this officer has done this same thing in the past (shot a suspect armed with a "melee" weapon in the leg on purpose). I can't really blame him for this kind of reaction, despite it being entirely out of policy. And apparently his bosses don't mind, given that he still has a job after two of these shootings.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/08/07/do-you-want-me-take-her/

I'm honestly surprised we don't see more of these incidents. And I'm definitely not surprised that the people who complain about suspects not getting shot in the legs (as opposed to the torso or face) often manage to complain about suspects getting shot in the legs. Oh well...

Well I suppose that’s one way to do it. I’m a little mixed in my thoughts on this.

On the one hand, situation resolved without anyone dead. On the other, maybe not the best practice from a UOF standpoint. With the failed taser deployments do I think shooting might have been inevitable? More than likely. At least the officer took decisive action, so there’s points for that.

I’ll defer to more experienced judgements on this.

[mark7]

Another failed taser use. A TQ carried by the Corporal saved his life. 41 rounds of 45 ACP fired by both Troopers.

https://www.lehighvalleylive.com/news/index.ssf/2018/08/watch_video_released_of_pa_sta.html#incart_2box_lv l-homepage-featured


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQLOmfx8X_E

[blues]

^^^^Wow. A lot of lessons in that video. I'm glad the troopers survived the encounter.

[jnc36rcpd]

I'm amazed that so many officers depend on the Taser, but blow off pepper spray, supposedly because it doesn't work, In reality, OC does work most of the time for most people. It may not work perfectly and you do have cross contamination and decontamination issues, but it generally is a punch in the face to most bad guys.

OC and Taser instructor here. Taser is like bomb disposal. When it works, it works really well. When it doesn't work, well.....

[LockedBreech]

Another failed taser use. A TQ carried by the Corporal saved his life. 41 rounds of 45 ACP fired by both Troopers.

https://www.lehighvalleylive.com/news/index.ssf/2018/08/watch_video_released_of_pa_sta.html#incart_2box_lv l-homepage-featured


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQLOmfx8X_E

Jesus, that went really, really south. Glad the officers made it and the guy got convicted.

[the Schwartz]

What kills me about this shoot is that you can SEE in the video where the hyper-criticism of police officers has worked its way into the officer's head, especially in a place like Maryland. He had multiple occasions where the use of force was authorized and put himself in a pretty bad position continually retreating and opting not to use force.

Blame is 100% on the bad guy, I just wish an officer could defend his life and health without knowing that no matter how much he tries to avoid it, he's going to get crucified in the press.

I agree, the officer is clearly reluctant to use lethal force, probably as a result of what he knows he will be put through following a critical incident like that. Unfortunately, that is the nature of the profession today, I am afraid.

In this case though, the body-cam video from both perspectives (his and the responding officer) exonerates him; that reluctance he demonstrates shows that he is not an impulsive actor (we do have some 'excitable' folks in our ranks). Unfortunately, in the field we have to accept a little rough treatment along the way as it is part of the job. Never really cared for it (the rough treatment) much, but sometimes that is how it is. I've experienced similar situations, though thankfully I was able to avoid taking a human life when the time came to draw my service weapon. Some folks can be reasoned with; others for, whatever reason, won't allow/accept it. S'pose that I was lucky those days.

Glad to see that the police officer made it out alive as it could've gone the other way after the struggle for weapon retention.

[HCountyGuy]

Another failed taser use. A TQ carried by the Corporal saved his life. 41 rounds of 45 ACP fired by both Troopers.

https://www.lehighvalleylive.com/news/index.ssf/2018/08/watch_video_released_of_pa_sta.html#incart_2box_lv l-homepage-featured


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQLOmfx8X_E

Holy hell that was nuts.

I thought for sure when the officers kept shooting at the driver’s area the dirtbag was done, but to see him drive off pissed me off.

Glad the officers survived but I honestly wish they had killed that shitbag.

[TC215]

Another failed taser use. A TQ carried by the Corporal saved his life. 41 rounds of 45 ACP fired by both Troopers.

https://www.lehighvalleylive.com/news/index.ssf/2018/08/watch_video_released_of_pa_sta.html#incart_2box_lv l-homepage-featured


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQLOmfx8X_E

At around 45 seconds, one of the troopers clears a handgun and throws it to the side. Was that his BUG? Could anyone tell?

[LockedBreech]

At around 45 seconds, one of the troopers clears a handgun and throws it to the side. Was that his BUG? Could anyone tell?

I read an article that said yes, it was a backup weapon of one of the officers that fell loose in the struggle.


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[TheNewbie]

I read an article that said yes, it was a backup weapon of one of the officers that fell loose in the struggle.


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Wonder how he carried it.

[KevH]

Another failed taser use. A TQ carried by the Corporal saved his life. 41 rounds of 45 ACP fired by both Troopers.

https://www.lehighvalleylive.com/news/index.ssf/2018/08/watch_video_released_of_pa_sta.html#incart_2box_lv l-homepage-featured


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQLOmfx8X_E

Watching this reminds me we live in the 21st century where an officer's first reaction is to rely on a one-shot plastic gizmo with less amps than a household vacuum rather than his hands and fists to overcome the resistance of someone that wishes to do he and his partner harm.

Officer #1 is being attacked and the guy goes for his gun. The fact all that officer #2 can do is rely on the stupid Taser (might as well just stand there with his thumb up his butt) rather than even trying to grab the dude or taking an impact weapon to the guy makes me sick. Grab him, hit him, or shoot him...any of those would have been justified or more effective than what he did and could have saved Officer #1 from his medically induced coma and long recovery.

[KhanRad]

Holy hell that was nuts.

I thought for sure when the officers kept shooting at the driver’s area the dirtbag was done, but to see him drive off pissed me off.

Glad the officers survived but I honestly wish they had killed that shitbag.

.45acp has trouble getting through vehicle materials. I have been to a half dozen vehicle shoot workshops over the last few years, and even with .45acp+P bonded loads a slug rarely gets through a car door. The majority of the trooper's rounds were fired below the autoglass level, and into the car body. From my experiences, any of the other three major calibers(9mm, .357sig, .40S&W) are a better choice while working in and around vehicles.

[11B10]

^^^^Wow. A lot of lessons in that video. I'm glad the troopers survived the encounter.


blues, did you read the entire story? I'm glad they "survived," too. This is pretty close to me and what makes it so unusual is the Pennlive headline about "how fast these things can happen." Pennlive is not exactly "tuned in" to the concepts of real police work, which coincides with their being extremely liberal. Welcome to my world of "news."

[blues]

blues, did you read the entire story? I'm glad they "survived," too. This is pretty close to me and what makes it so unusual is the Pennlive headline about "how fast these things can happen." Pennlive is not exactly "tuned in" to the concepts of real police work, which coincides with their being extremely liberal. Welcome to my world of "news."

I've read a couple of articles on both the incident and the subsequent events.

[HCountyGuy]

.45acp has trouble getting through vehicle materials. I have been to a half dozen vehicle shoot workshops over the last few years, and even with .45acp+P bonded loads a slug rarely gets through a car door. The majority of the trooper's rounds were fired below the autoglass level, and into the car body. From my experiences, any of the other three major calibers(9mm, .357sig, .40S&W) are a better choice while working in and around vehicles.

Yeah I think at last I heard a good 180gr .40 S&W HST was an excellent choice to shoot into cars with.

Didn’t know the trooper was shooting from a bad angle, kept seeing glass chip and figured shots were going where they should. I heard elsewhere scumbag had at least one bullet in the head when he showed up at the ER.

[TC215]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zG1zeqpAbR4&feature=youtu.be

Things go downhill around 6 minutes in.

[HCountyGuy]

LVMPD Officer stops man stabbing woman. Guy tries to charge the officer and gets put down.


https://youtu.be/qYOuHmjVftc

[Doc_Glock]

LVMPD Officer stops man stabbing woman. Guy tries to charge the officer and gets put down.


https://youtu.be/qYOuHmjVftc

It seems in a several of these videos that female officers have a slower cadence of fire that is no less effective than their male counterparts.

[LockedBreech]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zG1zeqpAbR4&feature=youtu.be

Things go downhill around 6 minutes in.

Looks like he had a firearm stoppage? Did a pretty good clearance for that level of adrenaline.

Things moved fast enough there that I almost thought he snagged the gun, and either way that’s a police issue weapon that can disable an officer. Deadly threat, clean shoot.


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[AMC]

LVMPD Officer stops man stabbing woman. Guy tries to charge the officer and gets put down.


https://youtu.be/qYOuHmjVftc
That looked like the definition of a "controlled pair". Backing away from an obviously dangerous armed felon now targeting her....and she fired two controlled shots that did the job....and continued to give commands. Good job. I'd ride with her.

[TC215]

Another one out of Vegas (5 OIS’s in 7 days). Body cam video starts around 10:25.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&persist_app=1&noapp=1&v=SOeei_e9o7Y

[Peally]

It seems in a several of these videos that female officers have a slower cadence of fire that is no less effective than their male counterparts.

Animal was shot down with what looks like a couple nicely fired shots versus a bill drill. Nice.

[psalms144.1]

That looked like the definition of a "controlled pair". Backing away from an obviously dangerous armed felon now targeting her....and she fired two controlled shots that did the job....and continued to give commands. Good job.And, using the GLOCK polymer place holders instead of actual sights - not bad in reduced light...

[deputyG23]

I'm amazed that so many officers depend on the Taser, but blow off pepper spray, supposedly because it doesn't work, In reality, OC does work most of the time for most people. It may not work perfectly and you do have cross contamination and decontamination issues, but it generally is a punch in the face to most bad guys.

OC and Taser instructor here. Taser is like bomb disposal. When it works, it works really well. When it doesn't work, well.....

Our jail folks use OC multiple times a month and it almost always works. We did have one 6' 6" 280 pound new committal several years ago that had three cans emptied on him with no apparent effect. He was eventually placed into the restraint chair until he settled down. He was fine after that. A discussion about acquiring Tasers came soon afterwards, but nothing came from the discussions. We do have stun cuffs to place on inmate court defendants that have exhibited assaultive behavior toward staff. There has been no need to actually "push the button" yet because we test the unit in the inmate's presence before putting it on them. They don't seem to want any of it.....

[JF1]

Cadence of fire was probably dictated by firing one handed and subtle delay of getting second hand on pistol because she was trying to broadcast information. Not sure if the suspect chose to charge at that moment because he felt she was distracted or what. When dealing with an active lethal threat, I've seen students prioritize talking on the radio rather than dealing with the suspect. Only person there to help you at that moment is you. Not sure if it was the first, second, or combination of the two rounds that stopped the threat, but I'm guessing the second. Another good video for discussion at briefing. Here's their briefing of the incident.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1WiCV_dIAQ

[KhanRad]

Good OC hits, followed by skilled use with a quality baton is more reliable than a Taser IMO.

[TC215]

Another from Vegas:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzi8xgzWbYk

[LockedBreech]

Another from Vegas:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzi8xgzWbYk

Yikes! I don’t blame him at all, he was being knife charged, but if I was one of the officers directly behind him I’d say an extra prayer that night.


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[AMC]

Yikes! I don’t blame him at all, he was being knife charged, but if I was one of the officers directly behind him I’d say an extra prayer that night.

Yeesh. Just goes to show, you can try De-Escalation, time and distance, less-lethal tools.....and it still might end up in an OIS. The suspect controls the outcome in most cases. And just 'cause someone is 'in crisis' doesn't mean they're not dangerous.
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[HCountyGuy]

Another from Vegas:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzi8xgzWbYk

Damn, hell of a bad spot to be in (crossfire for days) but glad it worked out.

My only criticism would be to use the taser a lot damn sooner.

[John Hearne]

Yikes! I don’t blame him at all, he was being knife charged, but if I was one of the officers directly behind him I’d say an extra prayer that night.

That video is pretty convincing evidence of the maxim that the only safe backstop is the bad guy.

[HCM]

Another one out of Vegas (5 OIS’s in 7 days). Body cam video starts around 10:25.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&persist_app=1&noapp=1&v=SOeei_e9o7Y

Worth noting - the officer shot the suspect at just over 50 yards away.

[LockedBreech]

Worth noting - the officer shot the suspect at just over 50 yards away.

Cool as a cucumber on the radio too. Professional as it gets.


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[HCountyGuy]

Gotta admit LVMPD officers seem well squared-away in the proficient use of firearms department, if these recent videos are any accurate representation.

[KhanRad]

Another from Vegas:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzi8xgzWbYk

Yet another video that shows how effective the taser can be.

[FNFAN]

Gotta admit LVMPD officers seem well squared-away in the proficient use of firearms department, if these recent videos are any accurate representation.

They really are. Great initial and inservice training. Good budget for equipment. They do a good job of backing the troops. It's a very political agency but, hey, they all are to an extent.

[HCountyGuy]

St. Paul PD OIS:


https://youtu.be/OShuK94dlus

Officers were responding to reports of shots fired.

I do have two critiques of this:

1. Officers should’ve announced as they knocked. Homeowner may have thought he was dealing with other unwanted guests (potential home invasion set-up). Granted homeowner shouldn’t have gone outside with his gun if he thought something was askew. And perhaps identifying may not have changed much since we know some crooks have claimed to be police to lure unsuspecting occupants outside to initiate a violent crime.

2. Officers might’ve been better served utilizing a command other than “put your hands up” once they noticed the firearm. Watching the video it looks like he was attempting to comply with the request as he raised his arms and the gun was pointing upwards but by that time the threat was perceived and lead was flying.

I don’t think it was necessarily a bad shoot, but some better practices by all involved could’ve likely prevented it.

[blues]

Agree, HCG. We'll never know now, but it seems the failure to communicate effectively and the poor choice of commands led to an unfortunate (and perhaps unnecessary) result.

[TheNewbie]

St. Paul PD OIS:


https://youtu.be/OShuK94dlus

Officers were responding to reports of shots fired.

I do have two critiques of this:

1. Officers should’ve announced as they knocked. Homeowner may have thought he was dealing with other unwanted guests (potential home invasion set-up). Granted homeowner shouldn’t have gone outside with his gun if he thought something was askew. And perhaps identifying may not have changed much since we know some crooks have claimed to be police to lure unsuspecting occupants outside to initiate a violent crime.

2. Officers might’ve been better served utilizing a command other than “put your hands up” once they noticed the firearm. Watching the video it looks like he was attempting to comply with the request as he raised his arms and the gun was pointing upwards but by that time the threat was perceived and lead was flying.

I don’t think it was necessarily a bad shoot, but some better practices by all involved could’ve likely prevented it.


Maybe I'm wrong , but didn't the police respond because this guy had already fired his gun and then pointed it at his roommate's head?

[HCountyGuy]

Maybe I'm wrong , but didn't the police respond because this guy had already fired his gun and then pointed it at his roommate's head?

I didn’t read that in the news report I read, but it’s possible.

All I know is they were responding to a shots fired call at the residence.

[TheNewbie]

I didn’t read that in the news report I read, but it’s possible.

All I know is they were responding to a shots fired call at the residence.

I read that in the description of the video on the YouTube channel "Police Activity". It's worth a read.

[Kukuforguns]

I don’t think it was necessarily a bad shoot, but some better practices by all involved could’ve likely prevented it.
Can you clarify what you consider a "bad shoot"?

[HCountyGuy]

Can you clarify what you consider a "bad shoot"?

Shooting someone who doesn’t need shooting.

[Kukuforguns]

Shooting someone who doesn’t need shooting.

Thank you.

[TC215]

From Texas:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&persist_app=1&noapp=1&v=nxwiNO0Uycw

[Doc_Glock]

From Texas:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&persist_app=1&noapp=1&v=nxwiNO0Uycw

Great video! Lots of lessons.

-don’t rush in.
-carry and know how to use a tourniquet.
-practice off hand shooting.
-use a rifle.
-first neutralize threat then render aid.
-keep a helicopter handy at all times:)

[fwrun]

Almost all the lessons you mentioned were parroted by the TX DPS avid posted recently. To all you field training officers out there, show your rookies this stuff.

[TC215]

Body cam video from the active shooter in Cincinnati.

I can’t tell if the officer with the rifle didn’t have a mag in it or if the mag fell out after he fired. Either way, not good.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&persist_app=1&noapp=1&v=Sh0LCEBQvIU

[blues]

Ouch.

[Redhat]

Body cam video from the active shooter in Cincinnati.

I can’t tell if the officer with the rifle didn’t have a mag in it or if the mag fell out after he fired. Either way, not good.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&persist_app=1&noapp=1&v=Sh0LCEBQvIU

Looks like he might have accidentally ejected it

[Caballoflaco]

I'm not a cop, but since it hasn't been mentioned.

That was great muzzle discipline by the officer wearing the body cam when the rifle guy steps in front of her in the middle of a shooting.

[AMC]

Looks like he might have accidentally ejected it

They moved to contact and engaged the shooter. Good job. Familiarity with the Patrol Rifle might be a bit lacking. Seen that happen with a magwell grip for the support hand. We recently had some lateral officers come through, all of whom had attended a POST patrol rifle course, and they needed a LOT of work. Absolutely no idea how to clean/maintain the weapon, and very little weapon manipulation skills. And that's more the norm than the exception.

[Redhat]

They moved to contact and engaged the shooter. Good job. Familiarity with the Patrol Rifle might be a bit lacking. Seen that happen with a magwell grip for the support hand. We recently had some lateral officers come through, all of whom had attended a POST patrol rifle course, and they needed a LOT of work. Absolutely no idea how to clean/maintain the weapon, and very little weapon manipulation skills. And that's more the norm than the exception.

At first I thought it fell out but it sounded like he might have hit the button.

Just glad they all appear to have taken care of business unscathed.

[Redhat]

At first I thought it fell out but it sounded like he might have hit the button.

Just glad they all appear to have taken care of business unscathed.


RE your comments on training, maybe teach them how perform a function check too?

[lwt16]

I attended a patrol rifle one day class last week where I work.

After seeing little to no training for years, they are finally getting around to teaching these kids transitions, malfunction drills, etc.

This doesn't surprise me a bit.

Glad they worked through it in all the chaos.

Regards.

[einherjarvalk]

If you slow down the video, it's apparent the officer doesn't have a magazine in his rifle when he raises it to fire. There's no magazine on the ground after he drops the rifle either. The gunshot heard right before is from the officer at the entrance of the building; his body camera footage is amended onto the end of this video at about 2:15.

https://youtu.be/UokZZSwNy_8?t=2m15s

No idea what that sound right before the "fuck" was though - it definitely sounds like an AR mag hitting the ground, but it wasn't one.

[VT1032]

I wonder if it was a scenario where he inserted the mag on a closed bolt or something but didn't make sure it locked into place. I've done that for sure in 3 gun competitions, with the requisite "fuck!" following shortly thereafter... He could have been indexing his finger near the mag release and accidentally engaged it too. I suppose we'll probably never know.

[GuanoLoco]

I think we know he wasn’t carrying a spare mag - something that seems like a good plan if going in to an active shooter environment. I’m guessing this is a ‘got a patrol rifle in the trunk and will figure it out when I need to’ mindset.

[Lon]

... I suppose we'll probably never know.

We may not, but if CPD’s training staff is worth a single solitary fuck, they better talk to that Officer and figure out WTF caused that. If it’s a training issue then they need to fix it. Right or wrong, that video is a definite “WTF is wrong with that guy” moment, at least to people who know about these things.

[TGS]

I think we know he wasn’t carrying a spare mag - something that seems like a good plan if going in to an active shooter environment. I’m guessing this is a ‘got a patrol rifle in the trunk and will figure it out when I need to’ mindset.

Well, to be fair we don't know for sure whether it was a mindset issue. I think it's premature to declare it such....we simply don't have the information.

Lessons learned from active shooter responses are that it's very common to have stuff left behind if it's not on you, or in your immediate reach in the cab. So if he had a go-bag, plate carrier or bandolier of ammo it may have been in the trunk for a number of plausible reasons (department policy on having unsecured ammo in the cab? Running with a partner? etc), and he forgot to grab it, like humans have been shown to do in similar situations.

Who knows why his rifle didn't have a mag in it. For all we know, it could have been mounted in the cab and sometime during his movement the mag dropped out due to no fault of his own. Shit happens sometimes. Not having an AR reload on his belt, as well, is very commonplace. I've never personally seen a cop with one. That's also much less a mindset issue, and more an issue of competing priorities (weight, space, chance of needing it vs that 2nd pair of cuffs or whatever piece of gear you'd have to sacrifice).

ETA: The only thing that solidly tells me there is a training issue is that he discarded the rifle on the ground instead of slinging it. Something in retrospect that he, like most anyone, knows isn't a good idea or proper course of action.....but people do weird stuff under stress, especially if they haven't had a particular action-on-contact drilled into subconscious competency.

[GuanoLoco]

Well, to be fair we don't know for sure whether it was a mindset issue. I think it's premature to declare it such....we simply don't have the information.

Lessons learned from active shooter responses are that it's very common to have stuff left behind if it's not on you, or in your immediate reach in the cab. So if he had a go-bag, plate carrier or bandolier of ammo it may have been in the trunk for a number of plausible reasons (department policy on having unsecured ammo in the cab? Running with a partner? etc), and he forgot to grab it, like humans have been shown to do in similar situations.

Who knows why his rifle didn't have a mag in it. For all we know, it could have been mounted in the cab and sometime during his movement the mag dropped out due to no fault of his own. Shit happens sometimes. Not having an AR reload on his belt, as well, is very commonplace. I've never personally seen a cop with one. That's also much less a mindset issue, and more an issue of competing priorities (weight, space, chance of needing it vs that 2nd pair of cuffs or whatever piece of gear you'd have to sacrifice).

ETA: The only thing that solidly tells me there is a training issue is that he discarded the rifle on the ground instead of slinging it. Something in retrospect that he, like most anyone, knows isn't a good idea or proper course of action.....but people do weird stuff under stress, especially if they haven't had a particular action-on-contact drilled into subconscious competency.

I didn't see the rifle fire - not sure it had a round chambered in it either. I might have heard a click, hard to say.

Good muzzle discipline on the part of the officer he somewhat unexpectedly jumped in front of.

[TGS]

I didn't see the rifle fire - not sure it had a round chambered in it either. I might have heard a click, hard to say.

It's pretty common to have rifles carried chamber empty, mag inserted......also known as "cruiser ready".

So it's very plausible that as another astute member noted, the mag could have fallen out. Cruiser ready, mag gets accidentally ejected or isn't totally inserted when he pulls the rifle from the rack and tries to charge it...….that's one very possible explanation.

All I wanted to point out is that we don't know. While it's incumbent on him, as well as his PD to find out what happened in order to improve future TTPs, I don't see how anyone on the internet should be making any declaratory statements about him.

[GuanoLoco]

It's pretty common to have rifles carried chamber empty, mag inserted......also known as "cruiser ready".

So it's very plausible that as another astute member noted, the mag could have fallen out. Cruiser ready, mag gets accidentally ejected or isn't totally inserted when he pulls the rifle from the rack and tries to charge it...….that's one very possible explanation.

All I wanted to point out is that we don't know. While it's incumbent on him, as well as his PD to find out what happened in order to improve future TTPs, I don't see how anyone on the internet should be making any declaratory statements about him.

I'm not walking on egg shells - there's a fair chance he actively went in to a fight with a non-operational (no round chambered) or compromised (no mag inserted, no spare mag) rifle and was lucky not to get a fatal surprise.

I think the lesson here is to verify your rifle status before you need it - mag inserted, press-check for round in chamber, safety on. A patrol rifle (including HD rifle) isn't the same as a chambered, striker-fired handgun.

[Erick Gelhaus]

... maybe teach them how perform a function check too?

Around here a function check is an administrative task done after dis-assembly / re-assembly, cleaning, etc. Why is it something the officer should be doing when moving to contact during an event?

Thoughts on some of the other comments ... spare magazines? This is why I'm a big fan of the Boonie Packer Redi-Mag or even better the BFG Redi-Mod (an improved version) for L/E patrol rifles. When you grab the rifle, you're grabbing a reload too. You aren't dependant on remembering to grab a spare or throw on load bearing gear or, even worse, hope you drop two magazines coupled together if you hit the mag release unintentionally. When events kick off NOW, you may well end up going with just what is on you or in your hand - ask Haggard.

The copper wearing the camera did a great job of maintaining awareness, especially when the rifle dropping copper moved right across her muzzle & taking her out of the fight temporarily. I had to add that issue to my safety briefs - don't create a rule #2 violation by putting yourself IFO your partner for no good reason, i.e: standing up, crossing, etc.

[Redhat]

Around here a function check is an administrative task done after dis-assembly / re-assembly, cleaning, etc. Why is it something the officer should be doing when moving to contact during an event?

That was a response to post #1200 by AMC on teaching a Patrol Rifle Class. I botched the quote function.

[KeeFus]

LAPD traffic stop in July. Video released today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ny7dBpqdOc

[LockedBreech]

LAPD traffic stop in July. Video released today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ny7dBpqdOc

Some googling indicates she survived with a leg wound, shooter was killed.


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[blues]

Some googling indicates she survived with a leg wound, shooter was killed.


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Replying to your post before editing, LB...I think his actions will be justified by his need to attend to his partner to save her life, and since he couldn't be sure the guy was out of the fight...he took the steps necessary to ensure that both he and his partner would be safe as he did so.

(But I understand the basis for the concern, obviously.)

[LockedBreech]

Replying to your post before editing, LB...I think his actions will be justified by his need to attend to his partner to save her life, and since he couldn't be sure the guy was out of the fight...he took the steps necessary to ensure that both he and his partner would be safe as he did so.

(But I understand the basis for the concern, obviously.)

I think he acted entirely appropriately. I just wanted to avoid MMQB, even the supportive kind.


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[TC215]

From Texas:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=3Hdr1wmxEqc

[blues]

That is one stupid MF.

[GuanoLoco]

That is one stupid MF.

Room Temp Challenge - Failed.

[Hambo]

That is one stupid MF.

It's all fuck-you-bitch until somebody takes a bullet.

[LockedBreech]

It's all fuck-you-bitch until somebody takes a bullet.

"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face." - Iron Mike

[TC215]

Denver. Another TQ application.


https://www.facebook.com/ilike9news/videos/2026488077374625/

[UNM1136]

And that, friends, is how you stay in the fight....

pat

[LockedBreech]

Both of those Denver cops were dialed the hell in. Damn. If I've ever seen a video deserving of commendation. Staying on target, medical aid rendering while the dude who got SHOT keeps the bad guys covered. Incredibly impressive.

[Doug MacRay]

Denver. Another TQ application.


https://www.facebook.com/ilike9news/videos/2026488077374625/

I used to get coffee at that McDonald's before work at a building right around the corner. This 7-11 is two blocks from the District 6 police station. He actually runs towards it when he flees the scene. Genius level criminal. Good job DPD!

That said, I don't think he really needed the tourniquet, but it was handled well and applied quickly. We don't know if it was tightened enough of course, as there didn't appear to be any arterial bleeding to stop. The most common failures involving tourniquets around the leg are insufficient tightening of the initial Velcro application (resulting in too many windlass turns to get really tight), and failure to use both holes in the buckle, causing breakage when strong force is applied.

I think the newest generation of CAT's are strong enough not to need to be threaded through both holes for a leg application, but don't quote me on that, it's just what I've heard from colleagues. I still keep mine pre-threaded through both holes.

[Sherman A. House DDS]

I used to get coffee at that McDonald's before work at a building right around the corner. This 7-11 is two blocks from the District 6 police station. He actually runs towards it when he flees the scene. Genius level criminal. Good job DPD!

That said, I don't think he really needed the tourniquet, but it was handled well and applied quickly. We don't know if it was tightened enough of course, as there didn't appear to be any arterial bleeding to stop. The most common failures involving tourniquets around the leg are insufficient tightening of the initial Velcro application (resulting in too many windlass turns to get really tight), and failure to use both holes in the buckle, causing breakage when strong force is applied.

I think the newest generation of CAT's are strong enough not to need to be threaded through both holes for a leg application, but don't quote me on that, it's just what I've heard from colleagues. I still keep mine pre-threaded through both holes.

The new CAT’s have a single hole in that buckle. It is much easier to self apply with the new buckle. It looked to me that when the wounded officer went further uprange to the shot bystander, his leg looked pretty white. So even with heavy venous bleeding, it’s better to err on the side of caution and apply it. They can always pull it in the rig or the ER if it isn’t necessary. If it was a peripheral hit and it spontaneously clots off, that’s all good too. Incoming shots that close to a brick wall and sidewalk could’ve just been a spall injury as well. Hard to say.


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[Doug MacRay]

The new CAT’s have a single hole in that buckle. It is much easier to self apply with the new buckle.



Good to know, thanks! I guess it's time to buy some new CAT's.




It looked to me that when the wounded officer went further uprange to the shot bystander, his leg looked pretty white



It's normal for men to have ghostly white legs in Colorado :)

[Sherman A. House DDS]

Good to know, thanks! I guess it's time to buy some new CAT's.



It's normal for men to have ghostly white legs in Colorado :)

Make sure you get the CAT’s from legit vendors...there are a number of fakes out now, capitalizing on the upswing in medical supply sales following the mass shooting epidemic.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180915/3bb6fe493ba7a9f921c24ce82f60dbb5.png On second viewing may just be shadows too?

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[TheNewbie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKAsgxhsk14


Is that a P220? Look like he forgets to rack the slide.

[TC215]

Is that a P220? Look like he forgets to rack the slide.

It’s got a 1911 hammer...I think it’s a Sig 1911 with the Sig-profile slide.

[TheNewbie]

It’s got a 1911 hammer...I think it’s a Sig 1911 with the Sig-profile slide.

I believe you are correct.

[Doc_Glock]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKAsgxhsk14


Is that a P220? Look like he forgets to rack the slide.

Looks like the guy on the driver's side back door stopped him. Shooting them in the back seems quite effective.

[TGS]

Looks like the guy on the driver's side back door stopped him. Shooting them in the back seems quite effective.

I'm not sure I understand your comment...can you clarify?

[Doc_Glock]

I'm not sure I understand your comment...can you clarify?

it looked to me like the officer who fell backward and the officer at the right rear of the vehicle returned ineffective fire.

The officer on on the left side at the open door appeared to stop the fight by shooting the perpetrator in the back from across the vehicle through the open door.

1:05 time stamp on video.

[blues]

it looked to me like the officer who fell backward and the officer at the right rear of the vehicle returned ineffective fire.

The officer on on the left side at the open door appeared to stop the fight by shooting the perpetrator in the back from across the vehicle through the open door.

1:05 time stamp on video.

I'm not TGS, but I have a feeling that he thought you might have been making a value judgement based upon the way your post was worded. No question that under the circumstances it was the right thing to do.

[Doc_Glock]

I'm not TGS, but I have a feeling that he thought you might have been making a value judgement based upon the way your post was worded. No question that under the circumstances it was the right thing to do.

Ahhhh. No judgement at all. I think the back shooting was entirely appropriate and -also- very effective.

[psalms144.1]

Is that a P220? Look like he forgets to rack the slide.1911...

[LockedBreech]

I've never been there and I don't judge anyone for fear in the situation, but it seems like cover officer really let his partner down with his retreat and spin around. If perp had been quicker or left-side-of-the-truck officer hadn't been there, the officer that went to the ground might be dead. You're the cover officer. Cover.

Good job by left-side officer for having situational awareness and landing effective fire.

[TGS]

I've never been there and I don't judge anyone for fear in the situation, but it seems like cover officer really let his partner down with his retreat and spin around. If perp had been quicker or left-side-of-the-truck officer hadn't been there, the officer that went to the ground might be dead. You're the cover officer. Cover.

Good job by left-side officer for having situational awareness and landing effective fire.

Pretty much my thoughts exactly.

I wouldn't be surprised if he walked into work and had this hanging on his locker:

30466

[UNM1136]

I've never been there and I don't judge anyone for fear in the situation, but it seems like cover officer really let his partner down with his retreat and spin around. If perp had been quicker or left-side-of-the-truck officer hadn't been there, the officer that went to the ground might be dead. You're the cover officer. Cover.

Good job by left-side officer for having situational awareness and landing effective fire.

I have actually trained my recruits to use a similar step to what Southnarc teaches and moving in that case to the right front towards the (in this case, B pillar), rather than backwards. Never had to do it for real, but it really does screw people up. Mostly used it when people are digging where I can't see looking for documents. They turn after finding what they are looking for and you are no longer where they expect you to be.

I also have no problem with the drivers side officer finishing it, as it also appears to me. He actually had the best angle, apparently cleanest backdrop, and got to work. To refernce Paul Howe...two officers here wer in a gunfight, and one was in a shooting. One is preferable to the other, if possible.

No MMQB, this one ended like it needed to end, and a good job was done by all.

pat

[LockedBreech]

I have actually trained my recruits to use a similar step to what Southnarc teaches and moving in that case to the right front towards the (in this case, B pillar), rather than backwards. Never had to do it for real, but it really does screw people up. Mostly used it when people are digging where I can't see looking for documents. They turn after finding what they are looking for and you are no longer where they expect you to be.

I also have no problem with the drivers side officer finishing it, as it also appears to me. He actually had the best angle, apparently cleanest backdrop, and got to work. To refernce Paul Howe...two officers here wer in a gunfight, and one was in a shooting. One is preferable to the other, if possible.

No MMQB, this one ended like it needed to end, and a good job was done by all.

pat

Consider me educated. That's why I try not to do MMQB in these threads. Even as I was typing I was iffy about it.

"never miss an opportunity to shut up"

[UNM1136]

Sorry, LB. My intent was to support you in your assertion, and clarify that I wasn"t the BFQB, not to call you out.

We are in agreement and on the same page.

pat

[LockedBreech]

Sorry, LB. My intent was to support you in your assertion, and clarify that I wasn"t the BFQB, not to call you out.

We are in agreement and on the same page.

pat

Read your response wrong. Thanks for making me feel like less of a horse’s ass.

I’ve had long talks with my brother about this issue, and it’s clear that his agency and all agencies they work with regularly have an unwritten, unspoken, but seemingly very well known index of what officers they trust to have their backs, and which they don’t. Fortunately the “don’t” list is short, but it’s there.

As a never-LEO I will almost universally refrain from MMQB’ing people who do the work. I made an exception here because my brother does this job and I rely on his backup to get into the fight if he’s in trouble. If the officer who fell was my family I would have a hard time sitting at a dinner table with the cover officer going forward.

Ah well. All’s well that ends well.


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[KeeFus]

Deadly Force...is Deadly Force.

Grand Rapids PD.

https://fox17online.com/2018/09/27/video-shows-end-of-shootout-suspect-hit-by-police-vehicle/

[Gun Mutt]

Dammit...no close up or slo mo replay.

[GuanoLoco]

Dammit...no close up or slo mo replay.

I saw 2 feet in the air...

[Hambo]

Deadly Force...is Deadly Force.

Grand Rapids PD.

https://fox17online.com/2018/09/27/video-shows-end-of-shootout-suspect-hit-by-police-vehicle/

Want dash cam footage.

[Lon]

That’s awesome. I’d like to buy him a beer.

[Hambo]

That’s awesome. I’d like to buy him a beer.

He'll be drinking on that story for the rest of his career.

[TC215]

Baltimore PD--


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=JeWJzQXWPIg