LE UOF Video thread

[paherne]

*If* we thought the guy was armed, that'd be a SWAT call-out here. We'd treat it like a barricaded suspect in a building since the vehicle was immobilized.

Personally I have no issue with the use of the dog and would write it up as in policy for us (although that means nothing on if it's in their policy, of course). Non-compliant suspect in a confined space after a resist? No issue from me.

On the other hand, what's with left handing the gun while partially in/out of the vehicle? Is the patrol car stuck and he's trying to rock it out while also holding the guy at gunpoint? Also, calm down a bit. His choice of words made his use of force seem higher to the layman than it would otherwise.

Screaming, "I'm gonna fucking kill you!" and "I'm fucking done with your shit!" does not lend the air of professionalism I like to hear in officer's command voices at critical incidents. The 9th Circuit does require us to provide warnings before using force, though.

[John Hearne]

Interesting. Could that be viewed as abandoning the victim, allowing her to suffer additional injuries, in order to "de-escalate" an armed, violent suspect?

When I've seen scenarios run, coming to the defense of others always takes longer than when the officer is personally threatened.

[blues]

When I've seen scenarios run, coming to the defense of others always takes longer than when the officer is personally threatened.

Makes sense. One has more time to think about all the (negative) repercussions waiting in the wings...

[Coyotesfan97]

*If* we thought the guy was armed, that'd be a SWAT call-out here. We'd treat it like a barricaded suspect in a building since the vehicle was immobilized.

Personally I have no issue with the use of the dog and would write it up as in policy for us (although that means nothing on if it's in their policy, of course). Non-compliant suspect in a confined space after a resist? No issue from me.

On the other hand, what's with left handing the gun while partially in/out of the vehicle? Is the patrol car stuck and he's trying to rock it out while also holding the guy at gunpoint? Also, calm down a bit. His choice of words made his use of force seem higher to the layman than it would otherwise.

It sounds like BBIs barricade policy is like ours. That’s a barricade and a SWAT call out. Why rush the car and break out a window? The suspect isn’t going anywhere. If he gets out and runs that’s what your dog is for.

And speaking of the dog I’m not telling someone else to get my dog. The other Officer just opened the door and let him hop out unleashed. That’s a recipe for an unintended bite on a bystander maybe an Officer.

The guy dives back into the truck and you can’t see him and you think he’s armed. Back up! The issue I have when the dog is deployed is the suspect’s hands are up and empty, he’s moving towards the handler, and he says he’s giving up.

If he drops his hands or tries to move back the dog goes. But it’s a moot point if you treat it like a barricade.

We handcuff before the dog comes off.

The dog is pretty calm which is good because it had a chance to bite the Officer opening the car door, the handler when he took it off, and rebiting the suspect he stands there apparently uncontrolled. If I took my dog off the bite from the front with my hands over his head like that I’d be bit when he came off. Step over the dog so his body is between your legs so he can’t move and take him off. Pull him away from the suspect. Put him back in the car.

If your dog is on the bite put your gun away and don’t muzzle him. Don’t try to control him and the suspect with it in your hand. If your WML beam is on the dog that means your muzzle is too.

I think those are some of the tactical choices that will used for training.

[TC215]

US Park Police. Some...interesting...tactics here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1DfM9DSxgY&feature=emb_logo

https://www.tactical-life.com/news/u-s-park-police-not-charged/

[BehindBlueI's]

US Park Police. Some...interesting...tactics here.


Yeah. The "forward felony stop" isn't exactly best practices. The only time we can roadblock is for someone who we suspect isn't actually fleeing but is having a medical condition that is preventing them from stopping, to include dementia, etc. Even that requires a rolling roadblock first to verify the person will slow down.

[Gray222]

US Park Police. Some...interesting...tactics here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1DfM9DSxgY&feature=emb_logo

https://www.tactical-life.com/news/u-s-park-police-not-charged/

Just looking at the video, reading some articles related to this, there has to be something that's being left out on purpose by either the media or the FBI who is investigating it.

If a non-fed LEO shot and killed a dude over a hit and run where no one was injured, they'd be in jail.

[blues]

US Park Police. Some...interesting...tactics here.



"Interesting" is right.

[TC215]

"Interesting" is right.

That was the most polite way I could put it.

It drives me crazy to see officers running up to a car at the end of a pursuit.

[jnc36rcpd]

I tend to be more sympathetic to street cop mistakes than those who have plenty of time and distance to do stupid things. The suspect in this incident was a hit and run driver after he had been rear-ended on the parkway which is basically a somewhat lower speed highway. No one seems to have any idea why he didn't stop there or failed to yield to Park Police.

Park Police turned the investigation over to FBI and DOJ several days later. Until tThe announcement that no federal charges would be filed, FBI, DOJ, USPP, NPS, and DOI were saying absolutely nothing. This included refusal to reply to Congress.

I suspect that this may have occurred because whatever decision was made, there would be blowback. Either the Park Police "executed" someone as described by the Washington Post or alternatively one of our brothers made a split second decision that may or may not have been perfect. In any event, the suspect apparently had no criminal record and had marijuana in his system.

I have my doubts about the OIS, but I understand that things are not always as they appear. On the other hand, I find it outrageous that the federal government sits on an OIS like this for two years with no comment or decision for the decedent's family or the involved cops. I see no reason for the government to treat either the bad guy's family nor the cops (now in the station on admin duty for close to two years) like this.

[0ddl0t]

If a non-fed LEO shot and killed a dude over a hit and run where no one was injured, they'd be in jail.
A fleeing felon whose continued evasion is increasingly putting police and the public in danger? Maybe in SF...

[John Hearne]

The use of deadly force to stop an ongoing, dangerous pursuit is a well established matter of jurisprudence in 2019. From the most recent SCOTUS case "The Court has thus never found the use of deadly force in connection with a dangerous car chase to violate the Fourth Amendment, let alone to be a basis for denying qualified immunity." Mullenix v. Luna (2015) Fleeing from the police is effectively an act of wielding a deadly weapon in the commission of a violent felony at least as dangerous as arson.

We can argue about how "dangerous" the pursuit was. We don't have video footage from the original pursuing unit to see how the driver was behaving prior to the start of the video we have. The pursuit did move from a fairly open highway to a residential neighborhood at 7:00 in the evening. Are these facts as "dangerous" as Plumhoff v. Rickard or Scott v. Harris - obviously, the investigators thought they did. The SCOTUS has been very clear that if you run from the police what happens next is "on you" - see Sykes v. United States (2011)

And from personal experience, the U.S. Attorney's Office doesn't discuss ongoing cases. We had a misdemeanor case in which a driver almost struck several of our officers. We wanted to release the video to the media as a public awareness piece. We could not get permission to release the video until the case was adjudicated. Of course the driver, didn't show and by the time the matter was settled, it was almost two years later and the video was stale.

[TGS]

Park Police turned the investigation over to FBI and DOJ several days later. Until tThe announcement that no federal charges would be filed, FBI, DOJ, USPP, NPS, and DOI were saying absolutely nothing. This included refusal to reply to Congress.

…

I have my doubts about the OIS, but I understand that things are not always as they appear. On the other hand, I find it outrageous that the federal government sits on an OIS like this for two years with no comment or decision for the decedent's family or the involved cops. I see no reason for the government to treat either the bad guy's family nor the cops (now in the station on admin duty for close to two years) like this.

I think it's weird that it took this long to decide not to prosecute, but the "no comment" piece is standard for federal affairs. Federal LE and USAOs are not in the practice of publicly opining on investigations prior to completion, unlike local governments.

As for the Congress piece, does that anger you? They're Congress. They have exactly zero special privilege, authority or right to insert themselves into and influence investigations. They try that shit all the time thinking they have some special status, and their requests are universally ignored/refused. I dealt with that a ton at my last assignment where every swingin'dick do-gooder called in thinking they had some right to investigations.

I think it's fairly safe to say that this is what law enforcement looks like when we don't have asinine policies placing the value of the perps life over everyone else, and what the PA piece looks like when you don't have state/local politicians looking to make a name for themselves and put their foot in their mouth prior to the completion of an investigation.

[Gray222]

A fleeing felon whose continued evasion is increasingly putting police and the public in danger? Maybe in SF...

Hit and run where no one was injured is a misdemeanor, at most. Fleeing the police is a felony, however, none of which requires the use of deadly force.

Like I said, there has to be something which is being left out.

[Gray222]

The use of deadly force to stop an ongoing, dangerous pursuit is a well established matter of jurisprudence in 2019. From the most recent SCOTUS case "The Court has thus never found the use of deadly force in connection with a dangerous car chase to violate the Fourth Amendment, let alone to be a basis for denying qualified immunity." Mullenix v. Luna (2015) Fleeing from the police is effectively an act of wielding a deadly weapon in the commission of a violent felony at least as dangerous as arson.

We can argue about how "dangerous" the pursuit was. We don't have video footage from the original pursuing unit to see how the driver was behaving prior to the start of the video we have. The pursuit did move from a fairly open highway to a residential neighborhood at 7:00 in the evening. Are these facts as "dangerous" as Plumhoff v. Rickard or Scott v. Harris - obviously, the investigators thought they did. The SCOTUS has been very clear that if you run from the police what happens next is "on you" - see Sykes v. United States (2011)

And from personal experience, the U.S. Attorney's Office doesn't discuss ongoing cases. We had a misdemeanor case in which a driver almost struck several of our officers. We wanted to release the video to the media as a public awareness piece. We could not get permission to release the video until the case was adjudicated. Of course the driver, didn't show and by the time the matter was settled, it was almost two years later and the video was stale.

In reference to the above, if an officer working in a large city did this, they'd be arrested for homicide.

[TGS]

Hit and run where no one was injured is a misdemeanor, at most. Fleeing the police is a felony, however, none of which requires the use of deadly force.

Like I said, there has to be something which is being left out.

Remember, they didn't shoot him because he left a scene or is evading arrest.

They shot him because he was going to run again, and doing so would present a risk of death or grievous bodily harm to the general public.

A given department may have a non-pursuit policy that would have prevented the officers from pursuing in the first place and/or discouraged them from using lethal force, but that nor what any anti-law enforcement DA from a big city would do is not relevant here.

The same case law that allows a Trooper to shoot a big-rig driver with a rifle from an overpass who fails to stop for inspection and drives dangerously in doing so is the same case law that makes the UOF "objectively reasonable" in the case of these officers. It's also the same case law that makes it objectively reasonable for officers to use a PIT maneuver at high speed, which can be considered deadly force.

[John Hearne]

In reference to the above, if an officer working in a large city did this, they'd be arrested for homicide.

The city of Memphis sought to convict the Arkansas officers in Plumhoff with homicide charges as well. The SCOTUS sorted that out.

[kwb377]

Remember, they didn't shoot him because he left a scene or is evading arrest.

They shot him because he was going to run again, and doing so would present a risk of death or grievous bodily harm to the general public.

I think here locally, it would be a hard sell (and we have a very supportive DA office). Just from the part of the video we see, he looks to be obeying traffic laws...he's signaling turns, maintaining lane, and speed looks to be reasonable (I couldn't listen to the audio...don't know if they were calling out speeds). Saying he was a danger to the public would probably be a stretch.

The big difference in the Arizona case is that he was on the wrong side of the interstate going against on-coming traffic.

Admittedly, I was involved in an OIS of a vehicle driver a little over a year ago. But my guy was spinning around in a yard, bouncing of the rev-limiter trying to run over myself and another officer, armed with a handgun and AR15 while fueled on meth/heroin.

[John Hearne]

Hit and run where no one was injured is a misdemeanor, at most. Fleeing the police is a felony, however, none of which requires the use of deadly force.

The Supreme Court would disagree with you, I think they're ruling is binding. Taken from Sykes v. United States:
"When a perpetrator defies a law enforcement command by fleeing in a car, the determination to elude capture makes a lack of concern for the safety of property and persons of pedestrians and other drivers an inherent part of the offense. Even if the criminal attempting to elude capture drives without going at full speed or going the wrong way, he creates the possibility that police will, in a legitimate and lawful manner, exceed or almost match his speed or use force to bring him within their custody. A perpetrator’s indifference to these collateral consequences has violent—even lethal—potential for others. A criminal who takes flight and creates a risk of this dimension takes action similar in degree of danger to that involved in arson, which also entails intentional release of a destructive force dangerous to others. This similarity is a beginning point in establishing that vehicle flight presents a serious potential risk of physical injury to another."
…
"Because an accepted way to restrain a driver who poses dangers to others is through seizure, officers pursuing fleeing drivers may deem themselves duty bound to escalate their response to ensure the felon is apprehended. Scott v. Harris , 550 U. S. 372, 385 (2007) , rejected the possibility that police could eliminate the danger from a vehicle flight by giving up the chase because the perpetrator “might have been just as likely to respond by continuing to drive recklessly as by slowing down and wiping his brow.” And once the pursued vehicle is stopped, it is sometimes necessary for officers to approach with guns drawn to effect arrest. Confrontation with police is the expected result of vehicle flight. It places property and persons at serious risk of injury.
Risk of violence is inherent to vehicle flight. Between the confrontations that initiate and terminate the incident, the intervening pursuit creates high risks of crashes. It presents more certain risk as a categorical matter than burglary. It is well known that when offenders use motor vehicles as their means of escape they create serious po-tential risks of physical injury to others. Flight from a law enforcement officer invites, even demands, pursuit. As that pursuit continues, the risk of an accident accumulates. And having chosen to flee, and thereby commit a crime, the perpetrator has all the more reason to seek to avoid capture."

SCOTUS from Scott v. Harris:
"We think it appropriate in this process to take into account not only the number of lives at risk, but also their relative culpability. It was respondent, after all, who intentionally placed himself and the public in danger by unlawfully engaging in the reckless, high-speed flight that ultimately produced the choice between two evils that Scott confronted."

[0ddl0t]

I think here locally, it would be a hard sell (and we have a very supportive DA office). Just from the part of the video we see, he looks to be obeying traffic laws...he's signaling turns, maintaining lane, and speed looks to be reasonable (I couldn't listen to the audio...don't know if they were calling out speeds). Saying he was a danger to the public would probably be a stretch.
Obeying traffic laws? He's running from the police and trying to drive around/through a roadblock.

No one would argue against a PIT maneuver being justified, right? But crashing a vehicle is using potentially lethal force too.

[Gray222]

I completely understand what SCOTUS has stated, and the relevant case-law, believe me when I say I am very familiar with this.

I have personally seen this occur in my PD, as well as others locally. Officer's doing exactly what case-laws says they were supposed to, which ended up with them being charged with homicide and never getting their jobs back, even if they happened to beat the case (one didn't actually beat the case, he's in jail).

My point has been that chasing a guy for a hit and run, especially when you know his license plate number, and in effect creating a situation where you chasing the guy (who did not commit any violent or force-able felony) is becoming dangerous to the community, is very shortsighted.

I understand that this may be completely legit in some places, what I have said is that it is not legit in large PD's/cities. This particular situation is one where I wouldn't even attempt to chase, nor would I advise any other officers to do so either.

[jnc36rcpd]

This incident illustrates the need for someone, preferably an employee association, to go public after a critical incident. We cannot trust most chiefs, especially in Democratic-run jurisdictions, to defend their people. No one has provided a law enforcement perspective on the Park Police shooting. Instead, we have the Washington Post accusing the officers of murder and execution by implication in their "reporting" and directly in their editorials.

Someone pointing out that the decedent was not stopping and would likely be driving through residential neighborhoods (For God's sake! Won't someone think of the children?) or pointing out Supreme Court decisions on deadly force to end chases might help.

[paherne]

The city of Memphis sought to convict the Arkansas officers in Plumhoff with homicide charges as well. The SCOTUS sorted that out.

Legal, perhaps. Clownshoes and should be fired, yup. This whole pursuit is a how not to do things video.

[kwb377]

Obeying traffic laws? He's running from the police and trying to drive around/through a roadblock.

No one would argue against a PIT maneuver being justified, right? But crashing a vehicle is using potentially lethal force too.

I'm not saying he was obeying all laws, but I didn't see anything in the video that looked to be putting the officers or public at grave risk...yet. My dept. is very liberal in when they will allow us to force-end a pursuit...and the pursuit in the video (at least the portion viewed) is not one of those instances.

I've been in pursuits that were much more violent than this one and I didn't feel at the time that I'd be justified in putting rounds into someone. I'm glad this instance worked out in their favor, for their sake.

[0ddl0t]

Los Angeles carjacker with machete attacks officer, gets put down:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_9sZ0YlkvU

The officer's wounds were not life threatening...

[Obelisk]

Los Angeles carjacker with machete attacks officer, gets put down:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_9sZ0YlkvU

The officer's wounds were not life threatening...

I was on another gun forum with this video. “Buh why did-ain’t the officer shoot sooner” they posted. Same group of folks that would complain if the officer did. Shoot sooner and risk prison, shoot later risk injury and less chance of being thrown under the bus. Either way there will be a lawsuit and Monday morning quarterbacking. It all depends on the community. Should he have shot sooner? Yes, but in today’s f the police climate that really doesn’t matter. Logic doesn’t matter, just feels.

[Mark D]

https://www.foxnews.com/us/new-york-police-k9-attacks-suspect

Officer gets punched in face, releases his dog.

[TGS]

A terrorist wearing a fake suicide vest went on a stabbing spree in London today. Apparently citizens were fighting the guy until police put him down. Waiting to hear back from a Met contact on whether it was AFOs, SFOs or CTSFO that did the shooting.

Video: https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1200453560024158213/pu/vid/720x1280/8G3ykYdxNmXdaX9L.mp4?tag=10&fbclid=IwAR2P1EKgMNe1BFJSyCRVPRxRz_Eee8FlCLF7XKlac zGC3e5f4Od6-pt8wFU

45350

[hiro]

Waiting to hear back from a Met contact on whether it was AFOs, SFOs or CTSFO that did the shooting.

Please post more info if/when you're able.

[TGS]

Please post more info if/when you're able.

Apparently City of London SFOs. She said that the last few shootings have actually been City of London, not the Met.

Everything indicates that they arrived to find the bystanders restraining the subject, which is where the video picks up.

Very decisive action to end the IED threat, no hesitation.

[hiro]

Apparently City of London SFOs. She said that the last few shootings have actually been City of London, not the Met.

Everything indicates that they arrived to find the bystanders restraining the subject, which is where the video picks up.

Very decisive action to end the IED threat, no hesitation.

Thank you.

London Bridge is their patch so it makes sense.

I've been following it on the BBC but as ever, it's too early to know what's being reported is accurate.

Any info on the attacker?

[TGS]

Thank you.

London Bridge is their patch so it makes sense.

I've been following it on the BBC but as ever, it's too early to know what's being reported is accurate.

Any info on the attacker?

Nah, not that I have.

I was surprised that it was SFOs. Maybe City of London police is different, but I was under the impression that SFOs are their equivalent to a SWAT team, whereas Armed Response Vehicles are usually staffed by AFOs. She said that City of London only uses AFOs for pre-assigned details/duties, so any armed response coming from City of London are almost assuredly SFOs.

Maybe I have a completely wrong understanding of their structure, or maybe that's City of London's way of splitting the difference between AFOs and CSTFO, since they're a small department (by UK standards) and don't have CTSFO.

[TGS]

Deescalation techniques in real life, and why they're shit:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdHFf_3h0fA&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR2VQsNBerbnd2CcrfFpmqddPpLVQ_azac06tshzO mgrZtPyMcSI4IS-nKI

[lwt16]

Good grief.

(several minutes later after processing that train wreck.....)


She's dang lucky she didn't go out of there in a body bag.

[cpd2110]

Good grief.

(several minutes later after processing that train wreck.....)


She's dang lucky she didn't go out of there in a body bag.

Your right, but I am talking about Mom. Also the officer. I think a tactical retreat/regroup was in order here. Trooper told me once he checked on 6 shit heads on side of the interstate. They threatened, MF’d him and told him to leave or it was his ass. He simply smiled, said your right, and did a tactical retreat. He then called in six of his trooper pals and went back to have a different conversation. Most went to jail with no issues. This officer should have realized she wasn’t in control and wasn’t getting it without help.

[Wingate's Hairbrush]

Your right, but I am talking about Mom. Also the officer. I think a tactical retreat/regroup was in order here. Trooper told me once he checked on 6 shit heads on side of the interstate. They threatened, MF’d him and told him to leave or it was his ass. He simply smiled, said your right, and did a tactical retreat. He then called in six of his trooper pals and went back to have a different conversation. Most went to jail with no issues. This officer should have realized she wasn’t in control and wasn’t getting it without help.The mom survived but remains hospitalized following multiple surgeries. Deputy, who just finished basic in February, got a concussion and is on administrative leave pending investigation; Sheriff says no policy violation.

A tactical retreat might have won the day without this mess; a tazer might've, too. The deputy appeared lacking in either the disposition or the training (or both) for this (not uncommon) situation. It was pretty bad, but I'm glad it wasn't worse.

Kudos to the second deputy to arrive, who cleaned it up fast and had the presence of mind to talk her through her shock, secure the scene and make the arrest.

[blues]

Wow, that was a cluster.

[0ddl0t]

Off Duty CHP comes to the aid of a victim of a cell phone theft on Black Friday, gets beaten unconscious by mob of high school aged boys:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39T9b5RYEBs

[Wingate's Hairbrush]

Off Duty CHP comes to the aid of a victim of a cell phone theft on Black Friday, gets beaten unconscious by mob of high school aged boys...A reminder to avoid packs unless there's no recourse...

Off-duty officer was good to want to help the robbery victim, but with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, he should've steered her away from the group and toward security and then surreptitiously taken pics while waiting for the cavalry.

[TC215]

Wow, that was a cluster.

Definitely a cluster, but I found the back-up officer’s throat-kick to the bad guy to be very satisfying.

[jnc36rcpd]

The second officer definitely took control of this cluster.

I spent my public service career in a suburban/urban area where back-up was usually close. I don't know where this took place and don't want to judge, but I will remark that many of the horrifying video footage we watch occurs when someone does in alone when he or she should have waited for assistance. While not always effective and better deployed when back-up is on scene, but pepper spray or taser deployment may well have been better alternatives to debating with the suspect and ineffective hand techniques.

As for the off duty incident, I think extracting the victim (who shouldn't have confronted a gang to begin with) and calling the working police would have been a wiser strategy than taking cell phone photos like every other assault victim you've ever encountered. I also wonder if the off duty officer had a gun on him.

[HCM]

The mom survived but remains hospitalized following multiple surgeries. Deputy, who just finished basic in February, got a concussion and is on administrative leave pending investigation; Sheriff says no policy violation.

A tactical retreat might have won the day without this mess; a tazer might've, too. The deputy appeared lacking in either the disposition or the training (or both) for this (not uncommon) situation. It was pretty bad, but I'm glad it wasn't worse.

Kudos to the second deputy to arrive, who cleaned it up fast and had the presence of mind to talk her through her shock, secure the scene and make the arrest.

Where did this occur ?

Didn’t the officer say she had been shot as well on the video ? Or was that the mom ?

Was the suspect shot ?

[HCM]

Thank you.

London Bridge is their patch so it makes sense.

I've been following it on the BBC but as ever, it's too early to know what's being reported is accurate.

Any info on the attacker?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-50611788

Born and raised in the UK. In 2010 he was part of a group arrested for a terrorist plot to bomb the London stock exchange.

The attacker was convicted of a terrorism offense for the plot in 2012 and was released on the British version of parole in 2018. Apparently he was part of some British prison program that is supposed to rehabilitate and deprogram Islamic extremists.

He was on a GPS Ankle monitor at the time of the attack.

[Gray222]

Deescalation techniques in real life, and why they're shit:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdHFf_3h0fA&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR2VQsNBerbnd2CcrfFpmqddPpLVQ_azac06tshzO mgrZtPyMcSI4IS-nKI

I've got a lot of questions, to which I doubt I'll get any real answers to so I'll just wait until there's an official report.

Second officer was.....off duty? Hence no vest/uniform and lost his sneaker? Good on him for showing up and handling shit.

Female officer lost her cool. Probably needed another 6 months on fto before she was let loose.

[Wingate's Hairbrush]

Where did this occur ?

Didn’t the officer say she had been shot as well on the video ? Or was that the mom ?

Was the suspect shot ?Greenville County, SC. 20 October '19. Shoplifting call. Deputy had been called to the same house earlier in the day over suspect attempting to steal money from mom's purse to "buy beer". Unclear how that played out.

Deputy shortly thereafter receives a shoplifting call and sees original suspect shoplifting (beer, I wonder?) on store surveillance video.

Bodycam video picks up as deputy confronts suspect at suspect's front door.

Two shots fired: first (from Federal's new "Irony" line) hits suspect's mother; second deeply offends a wall. Suspect not hit. Deputy not hit; it's difficult to hear because she's out of breath, but she tells her partner she's "not shot" and the "not" is barely a whisper.

https://www.greenvilleonline.com/story/news/local/south-carolina/2019/12/04/bodycam-video-shows-greenville-sc-deputy-shot-suspect-mother-during-tense-scene-inside-greer-home/2597237001/

I also find second deputy's perfectly chosen forward stomp most satisfying, but I really want to buy him a beer for his step-by-step talking her through calming down, getting focused, radioing in, securing her weapon , etc.-- he even reminds her to watch her holster as she re-holsters -- all while he's of necessity taken over the call...that's a cool head and a good teacher.

[lwt16]

We simply won't go that deep into a shoplifting/petty theft call here. If the theft wasn't in our presence, it's a case report and the victim can follow up with a warrant magistrate.

If mom wants to issue a trespass warning to her 40 something year old son, we can handle that for her and he goes somewhere else. If he stole beer money out of her purse, she gets offered a theft report and she can follow up with the magistrate as well. She's the enabler (unless this guy is mentally disabled and can't care for himself) and until she is ready to be done with him and his associated drama, we aren't there to mentor him off the suds and be a better son. That's a counselor's job.

Not sure how they do it there but here, there would be no need to "investigate" anything. It's a known offender on a petty theft X 2 and he goes down on the report. If the victim(s) so choose, they can seek a warrant. What I'm NOT doing is following anyone into their house for petty theft and family drama without back up on scene. Now if he is in there beating mom with a hammer, yeah I'm going in and handling business. But this looked like some guy with mental issues drunk off his tail with a cop fresh on the streets with no clue of what she was doing.....and certainly no officer safety skills whatsoever.

Mom embracing junior after the pistol came out of the holster was a recipe for disaster in such an instance....and mom certainly paid for that mistake too. But I'm a parent and I get that.....and an untrained officer cranking off a round isn't mom's fault. The officer had ample opportunity to retreat out of this cluster and regroup for her own sake until back up arrived. Knowing when you are in over your head is a valuable commodity.

Had this guy been a violent felon and not a drunk altered mental status dude she'd be room temp by now. If the agency retains her, she needs to go back to day one with a solid FTO with the main focus being officer survival.

Beer theft....and beer money theft by a known offender isn't worth becoming the next name on ODMP. Particularly when the probability of both victims not following up with a warrant magistrate is depressingly high.

Regards.

[AMC]

We simply won't go that deep into a shoplifting/petty theft call here. If the theft wasn't in our presence, it's a case report and the victim can follow up with a warrant magistrate.

If mom wants to issue a trespass warning to her 40 something year old son, we can handle that for her and he goes somewhere else. If he stole beer money out of her purse, she gets offered a theft report and she can follow up with the magistrate as well. She's the enabler (unless this guy is mentally disabled and can't care for himself) and until she is ready to be done with him and his associated drama, we aren't there to mentor him off the suds and be a better son. That's a counselor's job.

Not sure how they do it there but here, there would be no need to "investigate" anything. It's a known offender on a petty theft X 2 and he goes down on the report. If the victim(s) so choose, they can seek a warrant. What I'm NOT doing is following anyone into their house for petty theft and family drama without back up on scene. Now if he is in there beating mom with a hammer, yeah I'm going in and handling business. But this looked like some guy with mental issues drunk off his tail with a cop fresh on the streets with no clue of what she was doing.....and certainly no officer safety skills whatsoever.

Mom embracing junior after the pistol came out of the holster was a recipe for disaster in such an instance....and mom certainly paid for that mistake too. But I'm a parent and I get that.....and an untrained officer cranking off a round isn't mom's fault. The officer had ample opportunity to retreat out of this cluster and regroup for her own sake until back up arrived. Knowing when you are in over your head is a valuable commodity.

Had this guy been a violent felon and not a drunk altered mental status dude she'd be room temp by now. If the agency retains her, she needs to go back to day one with a solid FTO with the main focus being officer survival.

Beer theft....and beer money theft by a known offender isn't worth becoming the next name on ODMP. Particularly when the probability of both victims not following up with a warrant magistrate is depressingly high.

Regards.

All I can say is A-freaking-men to this.

[Cypher]

Wow, that was a cluster.

I'm not a cop but it's like she didn't use any intermediate weapons when I would think they were clearly called for.

She turned it into a contest of strength when she was clearly out matched.

[HCM]

I'm not a cop but it's like she didn't use any intermediate weapons when I would think they were clearly called for.

She turned it into a contest of strength when she was clearly out matched.

This begs the question? Did she have any intermediate weapons and if so what?

Not every agency, or every officer has tasers or OC spray. Crazy as it sounds some just have collapsible batons. Some of which really suck.

[psalms144.1]

Crazy as it sounds some just have collapsible batons. Some of which really suck.Are you tahlkin' to me?

16" steel ASP is the ONLY thing I'm allowed besides a pistol. What's funny is I can carry any model of pistol from NINETEEN (19!) different manufacturers, in 9mm, .40 S&W or .45 ACP (.38 Special in wheelguns), but I CAN'T carry my Winchester expandable baton, only the Harry Potter wand they issue me...

[kwb377]

I'm not a cop but it's like she didn't use any intermediate weapons when I would think they were clearly called for.

She turned it into a contest of strength when she was clearly out matched.

Just my guess from watching the video and the limited info from above posts...

This was probably her first non-complaint subject to deal with by herself off of training car. I think she vapor-locked on training...having graduated the academy recently, she'd just had a lot of force options dumped on her in a compressed amount of time.

When still trying to learn how to process fast evolving situations in the real world and presented with an overload of options, sometimes they just lock-up and the fall back option is the handgun...because everyone complies when there's a gun pointed at them right? Until they don't.

I'm glad it turned out OK for her, and hopefully the incident provided an opportunity for her to realize any deficiencies in training and/or ability and to do some soul-searching. Anybody who's done the job has had that incident when they were a rookie that caused them to pause spiritually and mentally and realize, "Whoa...this is serious." and decide if it was the right career for them.



Crazy as it sounds some just have collapsible batons. Some of which really suck.


99% of time I've seen batons employed as designed, it's the good guys that wind up taking the strikes. :)

The only uses I've had for a baton have been to hold open hoods on POS stranded vehicles, as a poker to pry up the rear seat cushion on vehicle searches to avoid surprises such as snakes, nest of roaches, etc. (learned from experience), to remove windows to extract crash victims or non-complaint suspects, or as a doorknocker on loud music, etc. complaints.

[kwb377]

16" steel ASP is the ONLY thing I'm allowed besides a pistol...but I CAN'T carry my Winchester expandable baton, only the Harry Potter wand they issue me...

Years ago, we were issued for a short while a PPCT marketed non-expandable baton (Celayaton?) that was a rubber-covered wicker stick. One of the taught techniques was a move performed from a crossed-arm position in which you flicked your wrist back and forth...called a "Wick Tick". Everyone's reaction during the transition training was "YGBSM..."

[BehindBlueI's]

Reading someone Miranda when they aren't detained and even before determining compliance, informing someone they are a suspect on their front porch when they are not detained, then following them in the house alone over a shoplifting is all rookie-itis.

[Cypher]

Just my guess from watching the video and the limited info from above posts...

This was probably her first non-complaint subject to deal with by herself off of training car. I think she vapor-locked on training...having graduated the academy recently, she'd just had a lot of force options dumped on her in a compressed amount of time.

When still trying to learn how to process fast evolving situations in the real world and presented with an overload of options, sometimes they just lock-up and the fall back option is the handgun...because everyone complies when there's a gun pointed at them right? Until they don't.

I'm glad it turned out OK for her, and hopefully the incident provided an opportunity for her to realize any deficiencies in training and/or ability and to do some soul-searching. Anybody who's done the job has had that incident when they were a rookie that caused them to pause spiritually and mentally and realize, "Whoa...this is serious." and decide if it was the right career for them.

Even though I'm not a cop I've had that incident where you go for your gun and they say "Fuck you, shoot me!!" And in a way I'm kind of glad that I did because it was a good eye-opener for me. I've also had that moment where protocol goes out the window and all I'm thinking is "I have solve this problem."

From my perspective of making decisions from the comfort of my couch with nothing really to lose,

As soon as he turned around and walked back into the house I would have called for backup. If things had progressed along the same timeline the backup would of arrived before things got really out of hand.

In her position as a small female I wouldn't have followed him into the house. Having said that, there's a reality to it that I understand. When I was doing alarm response for the city we were (on paper) never allowed to enter a building alone. The reality was I'd arrived at the site, find an open door, call my boss and get told "Go check it out." But in a perfect world I would not follow the guy into the house.

And finally at the stairs when he pushed her off I would have used OC or a taser or a baton but even that I know would bring issues because I'm positive mom would have got in it.

So at the end of the day, as somebody's already mentioned, her best bet would have been to stay out of the house and wait for the calvary

[Mark D]

Off Duty CHP comes to the aid of a victim of a cell phone theft on Black Friday, gets beaten unconscious by mob of high school aged boys:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39T9b5RYEBs

The Fox News version of this story included an interview with the officer. He stated he was trying to be get photo / video of the youths when things went TU. He had a concussion and a broken finger. Apparently it's the second time he's been involved in off-duty incidents at that mall, which is adjacent to Oakland, CA. He handled the interviewed well, and I got the impression he was armed, but made the decision not to draw. He reminds me of couple of buddies of mine who are CHP, who would probably also get involved if they were in his shoes, because that's just who they are. Unfortunately I can't find the Fox News piece.

[0ddl0t]

19 officers from 5 agencies exchanged fire with 2 armed robbers in a hijacked UPS truck stopped in rush hour traffic, killing the hijackers and (likely) the UPS driver. It was the driver's first day after training. An innocent bystander waiting at the traffic light was also killed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6azkG4HPNs

Video from another angle:
https://twitter.com/SteveHaha711/status/1202772503619354631?s=20

If you freeze at about 20 seconds into the video in this following link you can see the innocent bystander's Grand Marques as it begins rolling away from the middle of the highway in front of the UPS truck. Only the back window was broken and there were no officers nearby so the angle suggests the victim caught a stray from one of the officers aiming at the hijacking driver from the median behind the UPS truck:
https://pistol-forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=45600&stc=1&d=1575625655
https://www.local10.com/news/2019/12/06/as-it-happened-chilling-video-shows-end-of-deadly-shootout/

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2019/12/06/05/21893772-7762053-Law_enforcement_officers_stand_near_a_vehicle_that _was_draped_at-a-7_1575610147301.jpg

Tons of people around, it could have been so much worse...

[Gray222]

Unfortunately we will have to wait until forensics comes back to see who really shot who where.

I've been saying it for a long time, if you aren't going to have Bearcats available to patrol, then you should have rifle rated shields in every car. If you aren't going to allow for policies and training to stop pursuits quickly before they end up stuck in rush hour traffic, If you don't want to budget any of those things in, then this is what's going to happen.

[kwb377]

https://www.local10.com/news/2019/12/06/as-it-happened-chilling-video-shows-end-of-deadly-shootout/


Watching the video from the Lexus, hearing the rounds zinging by...then at the 19 second mark seeing the ricochet round go by his window...it's amazing there weren't more casualties. :(

What also amazes me in that video is the cluelessness of the people in the crosswalk that were oblivious to the wave of emergency vehicles headed toward them. If you observe an overwhelming sea of police cars coming toward you...GO THE OTHER WAY, THERE'S SOME SHIT GOING ON!

[Foxy Brown]

Deescalation techniques in real life, and why they're shit:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdHFf_3h0fA&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR2VQsNBerbnd2CcrfFpmqddPpLVQ_azac06tshzO mgrZtPyMcSI4IS-nKI

Even before I got to the part where she took out her gun, I had a bad reaction to hearing how she spoke to that suspect. I saw no reason to tell him all the extra charges she was going to throw at him. The demeanor shown when she was saying, “...because it’s the law...” was so condescending and self-righteous. I agree she had quite the case of rookie-itis. She’s the type of female officer that gives other females a bad reputation because she believes too heavily in the power of the vag with the badge. Harsh words, but true.

[BehindBlueI's]

Even before I got to the part where she took out her gun, I had a bad reaction to hearing how she spoke to that suspect. I saw no reason to tell him all the extra charges she was going to throw at him. The demeanor shown when she was saying, “...because it’s the law...” was so condescending and self-righteous. I agree she had quite the case of rookie-itis. She’s the type of female officer that gives other females a bad reputation because she believes too heavily in the power of the vag with the badge. Harsh words, but true.

You seem to have a poor outlook on female officers and this is at least the second time you've used that broad brush. It's the last if you'd like to continue to post here. That officer screwed up. Feel free to talk about that officer and the tactics of that situation. Applying that to all police or all female police is contrary to the rules.


09/05/19
I want to spell something out shouldn’t need to be spelled out based on the existing rules. If you want to bash another cop because of what they look like, what genitals they have, etc. you will not have a place in the LE forum. We get enough judgment from people who are ignorant of who we are as it is, putting up with it from other "good guys" is complete bullshit and there will be zero tolerance of it. Criticize techniques, tactics, policies, etc. all you want. That is both within the mission statement and something we can learn from. If you don’t know the difference, ask an adult to review your post before submitting.

Don’t be an asshole. Again, we get enough negativity and stonings from the general public. If you are toxic to the subforum based on how you interact with others, you will not have a place here. Respectful disagreement and debate is, of course, welcome. If you don’t know the difference, ask an adult to review your post before submitting.

I will not PM warnings individually. If you think this applies to you, it probably does. If you’re here because I linked it in another thread, think about why.

This applies equally to sworn and non-sworn.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Even before I got to the part where she took out her gun, I had a bad reaction to hearing how she spoke to that suspect. I saw no reason to tell him all the extra charges she was going to throw at him. The demeanor shown when she was saying, “...because it’s the law...” was so condescending and self-righteous. I agree she had quite the case of rookie-itis. She’s the type of female officer that gives other females a bad reputation because she believes too heavily in the power of the vag with the badge. Harsh words, but true.

I'm glad Foxy Brown weighed in. As an experienced female copper & trainer, her opinion should be heard. I pay attention to her, regardless of my thoughts.

[Foxy Brown]

09/05/19
I want to spell something out shouldn’t need to be spelled out based on the existing rules. If you want to bash another cop because of what they look like, what genitals they have, etc. you will not have a place in the LE forum. We get enough judgment from people who are ignorant of who we are as it is, putting up with it from other "good guys" is complete bullshit and there will be zero tolerance of it. Criticize techniques, tactics, policies, etc. all you want. That is both within the mission statement and something we can learn from. If you don’t know the difference, ask an adult to review your post before submitting.

Don’t be an asshole. Again, we get enough negativity and stonings from the general public. If you are toxic to the subforum based on how you interact with others, you will not have a place here. Respectful disagreement and debate is, of course, welcome. If you don’t know the difference, ask an adult to review your post before submitting.

I will not PM warnings individually. If you think this applies to you, it probably does. If you’re here because I linked it in another thread, think about why.

This applies equally to sworn and non-sworn.

[BehindBlueI's]

Frankly, BBI, I’m not seeing how my comment differs from anyone else’s criticism of her.

I notice you were the only one who referred to her genitals or made any remarks that her sex affected her performance. Rookies gonna rookie, and some will be better then others. I see zero evidence that she would have handled it better with a penis.


Now, I will paint with a broad brush

Not here.

[SoCalDep]

I notice you were the only one who referred to her genitals or made any remarks that her sex affected her performance. Rookies gonna rookie, and some will be better then others. I see zero evidence that she would have handled it better with a penis.



Not here.

Not trying to be a jerk, and I get forum rules and PC and all, but guys do stupid stuff and girls do stupid stuff and so on.

My problem is PC getting in the way of calling out what is done wrong. I’ve worked with a bunch of people that have done a bunch of stupid things... guys, girls, and myself. To prohibit criticism of actions because those actions may be gender based is sweeping under the rug.

Wait... think...

It is denial of what makes us better, and that is BAD.

Foxy Brown’s comments ring true based on many of my experiences - while at the same time some of my best partners have been female. I don’t see what is so wrong saying that guys can be impulsive and juvenile and inappropriately violent in interactions and females can use sex and the assumption they won’t get punched in the face...

Sometimes we need to really address these gender “norms” and decide that as decent people we’re gonna act like we should. That may be being less of a “man” or less of a “woman” but if we’re gonna do this job we better be able to get beyond our base emotions.

Here’s another angle... cops.

Cops are “good”. We don’t judge with a broad brush. If we see lots of cops screwing up the same way, we simply say it needs to be judged individually and disregard the pattern. On the other hand, we can identify what may be less than ideal or even ... oh my gosh wrong... and fix it.

Guys... we have specific issues we often need to improve
Women... you do too.

We can ignore it and continue to shoot mom’s who absolutely didn’t need to be shot... to rush in and make problems worse... to use physical violence when words would work... but when we make certain ”threat IDs” off limits, we must...

We must accept the fact that we are not as good as we could be.

It sucks to suck.

Edited to add... there is not “zero evidence”... the evidence is in the video. What was a failure and what was a success? Why? Let’s discuss that.

[BehindBlueI's]

This particular public forum is not the venue for those conversations. If you want to go to your department and say "you women need to..." or whatever, do it there. Personally, I think it's better to address the issue with the given individuals who display it, but that's your call to make when you want to address it there. Or Facebook. Or your local media. However, it will not be done here. Any further debate on the topic can be done via PM. Any further posts here will need to be on topic and comply with the mission and rules of the subforum.


From my retired vantage point, I don't think BBI is shying away from the truth. I think he is trying to enforce critiquing the behavior or actions and not the gender of the officer.


Correct. Criticisms need to be actionable. If the message is "don't have a vagina" that is not actionable. That is simply demeaning and discouraging. Be assertive without being needless rude is actionable. Don't expect compliance is actionable. Don't expect everyone to respect your badge or your badge to deflect bullets is actionable. These are all within the mission here.

If your post is missing, you missed the part that said "Any further debate on the topic can be done via PM."

If LittleLebowski agrees and people think this is a conversation that really needs to be had in full view, perhaps the Coterie would be a good place for it.

[Old Man Winter]

Man rear-ended patrol vehicle then charges officer with a knife.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WczAr9ODMJ8&

[kwb377]

^^^Outstanding commentary, Chief!

[jd950]

Just curious...anyone know the why for Ronald's attack? EDP, some chemical additives, ambush??? Does not look like a suicide by cop (said with complete ignorance about the situation).

[BehindBlueI's]

Man rear-ended patrol vehicle then charges officer with a knife.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WczAr9ODMJ8&

A very similar thing happened to my partner a couple years back. A guy rear-ended him and then when he got out of the car to check on him he rear-ended the car again then tried to hit my partner. He was able to jump back in the car but it broke his door, laying it up against the front fender. By happenstance I was close by and was able to get on the other end of the road the suspect was driving down so we, in theory, had him boxed in. The suspect left the roadway fleeing and died in the crash before either of us located him.

While we can't be sure what the motive was, or that he even originally knew that the car he rear-ended was a police vehicle since it was unmarked (but not covert, it had lights inside the glass, etc) but his parents said he blamed the police for his kids being taken from his custody.

[Obelisk]

All I have to say is 5 years left and I’m done. Listen to the “activists” on this one:

https://www.fox9.com/news/activists-speak-out-after-video-of-st-paul-officer-involved-shooting-released

Clown World

[blues]

All I have to say is 5 years left and I’m done. Listen to the “activists” on this one:

https://www.fox9.com/news/activists-speak-out-after-video-of-st-paul-officer-involved-shooting-released

Clown World

Better the officer should just let himself be killed than defend himself. What was he thinking?

Ordinarily I'd say it's pathetic...but evil seems more appropriate.

[jd950]

Similar stuff, although actually much worse, happened to me more years ago than I want to admit. I lived, he didn't; I felt bad for his family and angry at what I was forced to do; haters had to hate; media had to spin; politicians and wannabe politicians had to get air time.

On most every OIS I have to deal with now, one my first questions is the race/ethnicity/color of the guy shot. Because I care about that stuff on some personal level or think a different standard applies or the value of human life is measured by such things? No, because it gives me a sense of what we are going to see from those for whom skin color is all that matters or who want to get as much ink or air time as possible when cops have to use deadly force against someone of color.

I am putting soapbox away now.

[TheNewbie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKJ_bb3dZgY


Looks like the passenger side officer has a 4506. Takes him a while to decock, but he does and flips it back off safe, as you would with a 3rd gen.

[spence]

All I have to say is 5 years left and I’m done. Listen to the “activists” on this one:

https://www.fox9.com/news/activists-speak-out-after-video-of-st-paul-officer-involved-shooting-released

Clown World

Uh, say what? It's not clear what escalation of force was used?

I'm not a cop, nor have I been, nor will I likely ever be (I won't say never because you never say never, and it's not something I'd say no to under certain conditions). However, spending a significant amount of time in the Middle East, "escalation of force" was one of those lovely things the army had conceived by the time I was there. Long story short, the one time I fired my crew serve, I was way behind the curve ball, and still stuck in "training" and being absolutely fracking petrified that our chain of command would fry our butts heaven forbid we screw up and shoot the wrong person (it was threatened). While yes, two civilians got shot that day, I know it wasn't my bullets that did it, however if I wouldn't have been so severely hampered by minutia, the vehicle(s) would have never had the opportunity to take fire from anyone else, and there would have been a lot more bodies, on my head.

Anyway, delete that random story if it is that far irrelevant to the intent of the subforum. Point being, those "activists" would be pretty easily described as evil. That's just insane to think the officer could do anything else.

[spence]

Just my guess from watching the video and the limited info from above posts...

This was probably her first non-complaint subject to deal with by herself off of training car. I think she vapor-locked on training...having graduated the academy recently, she'd just had a lot of force options dumped on her in a compressed amount of time.

When still trying to learn how to process fast evolving situations in the real world and presented with an overload of options, sometimes they just lock-up and the fall back option is the handgun...because everyone complies when there's a gun pointed at them right? Until they don't.

I'm glad it turned out OK for her, and hopefully the incident provided an opportunity for her to realize any deficiencies in training and/or ability and to do some soul-searching. Anybody who's done the job has had that incident when they were a rookie that caused them to pause spiritually and mentally and realize, "Whoa...this is serious." and decide if it was the right career for them.





99% of time I've seen batons employed as designed, it's the good guys that wind up taking the strikes. :)

The only uses I've had for a baton have been to hold open hoods on POS stranded vehicles, as a poker to pry up the rear seat cushion on vehicle searches to avoid surprises such as snakes, nest of roaches, etc. (learned from experience), to remove windows to extract crash victims or non-complaint suspects, or as a doorknocker on loud music, etc. complaints.


So this brings up a question to me. Of course the comments on YouTube are merciless. I tend to try and analyze both sides before thinking too much one way or the other. The question I have for those who are LE is on a situation like this where the officer is very, very green and makes a very grievously poor choice, is that grounds to fire them, or does the agency take them back to for much more training to resolve the issue?

Referencing my own story in the post above, if I had acted more on instinct than "training" (recognizing the need to skip steps in escalation of force), it would/could have come out much more poorly, at least for myself and the locals involved, though it would have been deemed a good shoot. This officer got stuck in the same sort of mental tunnel, and it came out much more poorly. Is that grievance worth her job?

[TGS]

Uh, say what? It's not clear what escalation of force was used?

"It is unclear from the limited body camera footage what types of de-escalation tactics were used"

[BehindBlueI's]

The question I have for those who are LE is on a situation like this where the officer is very, very green and makes a very grievously poor choice, is that grounds to fire them, or does the agency take them back to for much more training to resolve the issue?

It can go either way depending on a bajillion factors, ranging from the department, the officer's history, how much media attention it gets, if the mayor is up for re-election, etc. etc. Usually rookies have limited or no merit protection even with union departments, so until they are out of their probationary period it's up to the Chief/Sheriff. If they are an at will employee in a non-union shop, same regardless of time on. With merit protection, it's generally up to the Chief/Sheriff to recommend and then a civilian oversight board to make the final decision.

[spence]

"It is unclear from the limited body camera footage what types of de-escalation tactics were used"

And that's even worse, at least by my understanding of the English language. Situation deescalated rather quickly when perp hit the deck.

It escalated from "hey, what's up?" to "shoot the bad guy" faster than you can zip your fly, and deescalated just as fast.

Limited body cam my left foot.

[Obelisk]

Uh, say what? It's not clear what escalation of force was used?

I'm not a cop, nor have I been, nor will I likely ever be (I won't say never because you never say never, and it's not something I'd say no to under certain conditions). However, spending a significant amount of time in the Middle East, "escalation of force" was one of those lovely things the army had conceived by the time I was there. Long story short, the one time I fired my crew serve, I was way behind the curve ball, and still stuck in "training" and being absolutely fracking petrified that our chain of command would fry our butts heaven forbid we screw up and shoot the wrong person (it was threatened). While yes, two civilians got shot that day, I know it wasn't my bullets that did it, however if I wouldn't have been so severely hampered by minutia, the vehicle(s) would have never had the opportunity to take fire from anyone else, and there would have been a lot more bodies, on my head.

Anyway, delete that random story if it is that far irrelevant to the intent of the subforum. Point being, those "activists" would be pretty easily described as evil. That's just insane to think the officer could do anything else.

I find the video relevant as it shows some in the community’s incorrect reaction, it may be incorrect but it is a squeaky wheel. That reaction can influence officer’s future decisions and should not be ignored. I see the delay in proper use of force not used sooner from I believe nonsense like this. It does have an impact.

[Coyotesfan97]

https://youtu.be/jdlBGCrfiKc

When you make multiple bad life decisions and you get to meet the fur missile.

[blues]

Hope the K9 didn't get cut up on the glass.

[TheNewbie]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1jYP0VEbAU

[GyroF-16]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1jYP0VEbAU

Any context?
Looks like they recognized the guy as someone in a BOLO...
Was he carrying a knife when being chased around the street/cars?

[Yung]

Any context?

Weapon was a glass bottle. Note articles are taken from the first few results that appeared upon a duckduckgo search for the decedent's name, with the word 'shooting', and not necessarily in line with my own opinions.

https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/news/notes-used-presentation-december-17-2019-town-hall-address

https://missionlocal.org/2019/12/the-sfpd-description-of-jamaica-hamptons-shooting-is-misleading-and-this-was-unwise-and-unnecessary/
https://missionlocal.org/2019/12/video-reveals-police-shot-jamaica-hampton-while-he-was-running-not-while-he-was-allegedly-assaulting-officer/

[Wingate's Hairbrush]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1jYP0VEbAUCouple questions:

1) "Glove up and render aid" before cuffing the suspect?

2) Telling his partner to stop the second volley of shots even though the (been shot) suspect was getting back to his feel. Why?

[AMC]

This one just happened, and as a result is the subject of MULTIPLE ongoing investigations. Police IA, SF DAs office Independant Investigation Bureau (who are now primary on ALL serious use of force investigations, not just OIS), Department of Police Accountability, etc. It will also be reviewed at the Command Level by the Firearms Discharge Review Board at some point, and ultimately by the Field Tactics/Force Options Committee for an Interdisciplinary Use of Force Review (which will focus on the incident solely through the lens of training needs.....what worked, what didn't, should we do more?). This last committee consists of the Rangemaster, Force Option Supervisor, Defensive Tactics Supervisor, EVOC, CIT instructors, Basic Academy Coordinator, and Captain of the Training division. This is a new thing for us, and it remains to be seen if the recommendations will be followed.

This was an FTO and recruit team. Recruit was the passenger, who got a bottle of Grey Goose vodka broken across his face as soon as he exited the vehicle. Suspect had just committed a Hot Prowl Burglary, and the officers were looking for someone matching the description. Not much more I can say at this point, since this is an open investigation. I'm sure however, that's it's going to provoke a lot of discussion.

[GyroF-16]

This one just happened, and as a result is the subject of MULTIPLE ongoing investigations. Police IA, SF DAs office Independant Investigation Bureau (who are now primary on ALL serious use of force investigations, not just OIS), Department of Police Accountability, etc. It will also be reviewed at the Command Level by the Firearms Discharge Review Board at some point, and ultimately by the Field Tactics/Force Options Committee for an Interdisciplinary Use of Force Review (which will focus on the incident solely through the lens of training needs.....what worked, what didn't, should we do more?). This last committee consists of the Rangemaster, Force Option Supervisor, Defensive Tactics Supervisor, EVOC, CIT instructors, Basic Academy Coordinator, and Captain of the Training division. This is a new thing for us, and it remains to be seen if the recommendations will be followed.

This was an FTO and recruit team. Recruit was the passenger, who got a bottle of Grey Goose vodka broken across his face as soon as he exited the vehicle. Suspect had just committed a Hot Prowl Burglary, and the officers were looking for someone matching the description. Not much more I can say at this point, since this is an open investigation. I'm sure however, that's it's going to provoke a lot of discussion.

Thanks, that fills in some holes... as many as can be at this point.
I truly wish both officers well.

[UNM1136]

https://youtu.be/jdlBGCrfiKc

When you make multiple bad life decisions and you get to meet the fur missile.

That was a good boy....no hesitation all... in our local training group there is a woman who owns a company specializing in animal wrangling for the booming movie industry (our TD was in Sicario as a bomb dog handler). The Hollywood crowd wants a biting dog to not be wagging a tail, like he is enjoying his work....:rolleyes::cool: this dog clearly wanted to work!

pat

[David S.]

https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/20/us/atatiana-jefferson-death-officer-indicted/index.html


A Texas grand jury has indicted a former Fort Worth police officer who two months ago fired through the window of a home, killing Atatiana Jefferson.

Early on October 12, Jefferson, 28, was playing video games with her nephew when Officer Aaron Dean and another officer arrived at her home.

A concerned neighbor had called the non-emergency police number after noticing the home's exterior doors were open at that late hour. As officers walked around the house in the dark, Jefferson heard a noise in the back yard, pulled out a gun from her purse and pointed it at the window, police said.

[Gray222]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1jYP0VEbAU

Did the passenger officer take a single shot at the end after the guy stood bad up?

Ouch.

[TheNewbie]

Did the passenger officer take a single shot at the end after the guy stood bad up?

Ouch.

I believe that is the case.

[Wingate's Hairbrush]

Did the passenger officer take a single shot at the end after the guy stood bad up?

Ouch.That's what I saw, too, and prompts the FTO's multiple "STOP!" commands, which remain perplexing.

Why "ouch"?

[HCM]

https://youtu.be/QBVUpup5EQk

Body Cam: Bar Murderer Suspect Fatally Shot in the Act By Officer. Long Beach Police Department, CA

Marksmanship matters. As I recall LBPD issues a railed SA 1911, a version of the MC Operator modified for them.

JHC

[blues]

Fatal funnel...

Well done by the officer.

[JHC]

https://youtu.be/QBVUpup5EQk

Body Cam: Bar Murderer Suspect Fatally Shot in the Act By Officer. Long Beach Police Department, CA

Marksmanship matters. As I recall LBPD issues a railed SA 1911, a version of the MC Operator modified for them.

JHC

Seems to illustrate “assessment” speed splits

[BehindBlueI's]

That's what I saw, too, and prompts the FTO's multiple "STOP!" commands, which remain perplexing.

Why "ouch"?

Likely because of the question of if deadly force was still reasonable at that point. Each shot requires it's own justification, and he'll need to be able to articulate that it's still a deadly force situation. Was the suspect still armed? Was he still a threat? What besides getting up was the suspect doing? I'm sure the investigation is going to want those answered.

[BehindBlueI's]

https://youtu.be/QBVUpup5EQk

Body Cam: Bar Murderer Suspect Fatally Shot in the Act By Officer. Long Beach Police Department, CA

Marksmanship matters. As I recall LBPD issues a railed SA 1911, a version of the MC Operator modified for them.

JHC

Good communication, good shooting. Nicely done.

[paherne]

Likely because of the question of if deadly force was still reasonable at that point. Each shot requires it's own justification, and he'll need to be able to articulate that it's still a deadly force situation. Was the suspect still armed? Was he still a threat? What besides getting up was the suspect doing? I'm sure the investigation is going to want those answered.

Considering the passenger officer was suffering from a closed-head injury that required surgery, I THINK he will be ok with his decision making. But, you never know because it's San Francisco and the cops are the bad guys, according to he people in power.

[Gray222]

Ten years ago, rookie officer likely would have no issues.

Now a days? I'd be surprised if he kept his job, unless there something we are all missing.

[BehindBlueI's]

Considering the passenger officer was suffering from a closed-head injury that required surgery, I THINK he will be ok with his decision making. But, you never know because it's San Francisco and the cops are the bad guys, according to he people in power.

I think you're right on all counts, and geography did influence my answer as well.

[Gray222]

https://youtu.be/QBVUpup5EQk

Body Cam: Bar Murderer Suspect Fatally Shot in the Act By Officer. Long Beach Police Department, CA

Marksmanship matters. As I recall LBPD issues a railed SA 1911, a version of the MC Operator modified for them.

JHC

Good shoot, officer took his time, aimed and delivered precision on threat then notified radio. Good stuff.

[0ddl0t]

In case anyone else is having trouble playing the long beach bar shooting video (if in a hurry, skip to ~5:30):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCgnQ3no_ic

[Hambo]

https://youtu.be/QBVUpup5EQk

Body Cam: Bar Murderer Suspect Fatally Shot in the Act By Officer. Long Beach Police Department, CA

Marksmanship matters. As I recall LBPD issues a railed SA 1911, a version of the MC Operator modified for them.

JHC

That was some good shooting. Notice the officer doesn't get jacked up when calling for backup. :)

[45dotACP]

That was some good shooting. Notice the officer doesn't get jacked up when calling for backup. :)The vid shows a good argument for having a WML also. I wonder if shooting into a darkened room like that would have been possible without some kind of illumination.

Either way, that's some good shooting from quite a distance.

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[fixer]

Body Cam: Bar Murderer Suspect Fatally Shot in the Act By Officer. Long Beach Police Department, CA

Marksmanship matters. As I recall LBPD issues a railed SA 1911, a version of the MC Operator modified for them.

JHC

Solid work.

[Wingate's Hairbrush]

Sonoma County. Suspected carjacker. Goes cluster and carotid pinch is employed. Suspect expires; turns out to be the vehicle's rightful owner. Sheriff says deputy will be fired.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0yuoYS-nqE

[Erick Gelhaus]

Sonoma County. Suspected carjacker. Goes cluster and carotid pinch is employed. Suspect expires; turns out to be the vehicle's rightful owner. Sheriff says deputy will be fired.


@Darryl Bolke and I discussed this one. I hope he shares his thoughts.

[Gray222]

https://youtu.be/eVko45B5M1A

Cliffs:

Male EDP and/or under influence of narc
two officers arrive, give solid commands
first officer tases male when he tries to get up, taser sorta effective
second officer attempts to tase male when he tries to get up after first round of current
her hand is in the way, self-inflicts, starts screaming
male officer reacts by putting 6 or 7 rounds into male's chest
female officer goes over radio
female officer has breakdown
No charges, or anything against the officers from the looks of it

[paherne]

https://youtu.be/eVko45B5M1A

Cliffs:

Male EDP and/or under influence of narc
two officers arrive, give solid commands
first officer tases male when he tries to get up, taser sorta effective
second officer attempts to tase male when he tries to get up after first round of current
her hand is in the way, self-inflicts, starts screaming
male officer reacts by putting 6 or 7 rounds into male's chest
female officer goes over radio
female officer has breakdown
No charges, or anything against the officers from the looks of it

If I had shot every suspect who resisted like this and came at me in my career, I'd be up to double-digit shootings. Some came very close, but only because I couldn't see what was in their hands. I'm gonna make a prediction that neither of these cops has been in a fistfight, ever. I read the Chief's comments at the press conference, he mentioned that people not in LE don't have the knowledge to properly opine on this situation. I do and this is all kinds of soup sandwich.

Also, if one of my guys canceled a backup with the details provided, they would be looking at a letter of reprimand, at the very least. We would send at least two officers and notify a supervisor. Was there a shooting or barricade going on that they couldn't spare the other officers? Nope, they were all available to show up after the shooting. These kinds of calls need to be prioritized and responded to like the high-liability events they are.

[AMC]

If I had shot every suspect who resisted like this and came at me in my career, I'd be up to double-digit shootings. Some came very close, but only because I couldn't see what was in their hands. I'm gonna make a prediction that neither of these cops has been in a fistfight, ever. I read the Chief's comments at the press conference, he mentioned that people not in LE don't have the knowledge to properly opine on this situation. I do and this is all kinds of soup sandwich.

Also, if one of my guys canceled a backup with the details provided, they would be looking at a letter of reprimand, at the very least. We would send at least two officers and notify a supervisor. Was there a shooting or barricade going on that they couldn't spare the other officers? Nope, they were all available to show up after the shooting. These kinds of calls need to be prioritized and responded to like the high-liability events they are.

Yeah, our policy would mandate a supervisor respond, as well as CIT trained officers. Tasers would not (and likely won't be for years) be an option for us....just CTS Supersocks and 40mm. Or batons and OC. I would not like to imagine this incident occurring in California after today....especially in my city.

[rojocorsa]

@Darryl Bolke and I discussed this one. I hope he shares his thoughts.

Always enjoy hearing what he has to say.

[TheNewbie]

LAPD OIS, one of the officers is carrying a 3rd gen S&W. Around 8:30 in the video, does the officer thumb cock his pistol?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW3rWDzlqUE

[BehindBlueI's]

Around 8:30 in the video, does the officer thumb cock his pistol?


Sure looks and sounds like it.

[TheNewbie]

Sure looks and sounds like it.


You can also hear what sounds like him chomping on gum. Almost like he had too much time on his hands combined with too much adrenaline.

I would suspect LAPD’s DA/SA course teaches not to do this.


Overall I think he did a good job considering what just happened, but the thumb cocking would need to be addressed.

[Mark D]

LAPD OIS, one of the officers is carrying a 3rd gen S&W. Around 8:30 in the video, does the officer thumb cock his pistol?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW3rWDzlqUE

Video shows suspect's gun to be a Polymer 80.

[HCM]

Baltimore Police Sgt kicked by bystanders while attempting to arrest suspect who assaulted him. The bystanders also try to pull the suspect free of the Sgt.’s Control.


https://youtu.be/W8Ti_0rYqZw

[blues]

I wish I could say I was shocked.

[DC_P]

I wish I could say I was shocked.
The only thing shocking is that this will not be big news, but a shitbird getting the same treatment during the commission of a violent crime would receive media and public outrage.

[TC215]

Tennessee Highway Patrol shootout in Chattanooga:


https://www.facebook.com/FOXChatt/videos/2926026980751618/

https://www.wsmv.com/news/shoot-out-with-thp-troopers-caught-on-dashcam/article_b3389fe2-3c73-11ea-8f72-8b12fae3ae4d.html

[BehindBlueI's]

Baltimore Police Sgt kicked by bystanders while attempting to arrest suspect who assaulted him. The bystanders also try to pull the suspect free of the Sgt.’s Control.


https://youtu.be/W8Ti_0rYqZw

When I went through the Academy "MMA style" was the hot newness for defensive tactics. "All fights go to the ground" was the anthem, and thus the vast majority of the training was about taking the suspect to the ground, sort of self-fulfilling prophecy training. This shows the dangers of going to the ground for LE. Appalling, yes, but let's be honest here. There was no serious attempt to injure the sergeant. They kicked him in the ass a couple of times, more "humiliation for him/showing off for us" posturing then a truly violent assault.

I'm not a huge fan of pepper spray, but when I've been on the ground with a suspect and approached by potentially hostile bystanders, spray seemed the best tactic.

[blues]

When I went through the Academy "MMA style" was the hot newness for defensive tactics. "All fights go to the ground" was the anthem, and thus the vast majority of the training was about taking the suspect to the ground, sort of self-fulfilling prophecy training. This shows the dangers of going to the ground for LE. Appalling, yes, but let's be honest here. There was no serious attempt to injure the sergeant. They kicked him in the ass a couple of times, more "humiliation for him/showing off for us" posturing then a truly violent assault.

I'm not a huge fan of pepper spray, but when I've been on the ground with a suspect and approached by potentially hostile bystanders, spray seemed the best tactic.

I guess it would depend on which direction they approach you from when they're about to land a kick. If you have time to pepper spray the crowd while fighting off the perp...more power to you.

[BehindBlueI's]

I guess it would depend on which direction they approach you from when they're about to land a kick. If you have time to pepper spray the crowd while fighting off the perp...more power to you.

Spray is the one tool we have that's area denial. Watching the video, unless I missed it, there's no active swinging or attacking by the suspect either. I suspect that both the sergeant and the suspect were gassed at that point. A quick spray to the suspect's face and maybe he's not going anywhere too far even if you disengage. The goal at that point is probably getting to your feet since you can't defend yourself surrounded and on the ground.

[blues]

Spray is the one tool we have that's area denial. Watching the video, unless I missed it, there's no active swinging or attacking by the suspect either. I suspect that both the sergeant and the suspect were gassed at that point. A quick spray to the suspect's face and maybe he's not going anywhere too far even if you disengage. The goal at that point is probably getting to your feet since you can't defend yourself surrounded and on the ground.

Okay, we must've been talking past one another. I wasn't referring to the video, but rather the portion of your post..."when I've been on the ground with a suspect and approached by potentially hostile bystanders, spray seemed the best tactic". Your second post fleshed out what I was waiting for.

[AMC]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1jYP0VEbAU

As an update on this case.....new DA has declined prosecution of the suspect for the assault on the officers. The DAs criminal investigation of the officers continues, however. They also declined prosecution of a suspect who assaulted two officers who were contacting him for a "sit/lie" violation (local ordinance prohibiting sitting/laying on the ground during certain hours). Officers were both injured, and the discharge sheet made clear that cases arising from "quality of life" actions will not be prosecuted. In other words, you take on a subject for drinking/crapping/being drunk in public, and it results is an assault on the officers.....no prosecution.

Combine this with a recent incident that resulted in the callout of the DAs Independent Investigation Bureau. Officers respond to a shooting call. Find victim down, suffering from gunshots, but he is also armed, gun in hand. Officers grab a shield, approach cautiously while covering downed suspect, secure his gun, then render aid. Under our policy, pointing a firearm is a reportable use of force that triggers a supervisors investigation. Because the officers "used force" and the person was hospitalized, some genius supervisor thought that meant ring the bell for the IIB.

We are about to make Baltimore look like an aggressive, proactive police department.

[blues]

AMC You have my deepest sympathy. You deserve much better.

[FNFAN]

As an update on this case.....new DA has declined prosecution of the suspect for the assault on the officers. The DAs criminal investigation of the officers continues, however. They also declined prosecution of a suspect who assaulted two officers who were contacting him for a "sit/lie" violation (local ordinance prohibiting sitting/laying on the ground during certain hours). Officers were both injured, and the discharge sheet made clear that cases arising from "quality of life" actions will not be prosecuted. In other words, you take on a subject for drinking/crapping/being drunk in public, and it results is an assault on the officers.....no prosecution.

Combine this with a recent incident that resulted in the callout of the DAs Independent Investigation Bureau. Officers respond to a shooting call. Find victim down, suffering from gunshots, but he is also armed, gun in hand. Officers grab a shield, approach cautiously while covering downed suspect, secure his gun, then render aid. Under our policy, pointing a firearm is a reportable use of force that triggers a supervisors investigation. Because the officers "used force" and the person was hospitalized, some genius supervisor thought that meant ring the bell for the IIB.

We are about to make Baltimore look like an aggressive, proactive police department.

Is there a large percentage of officers who find this a refreshing and needed change in policy? Basically asking how many brain dead zombies in blue you have to work with. I can only ponder how this would effect the morale of folks who joined the department to do police work. Watch your back Brother.

[TheNewbie]

As an update on this case.....new DA has declined prosecution of the suspect for the assault on the officers. The DAs criminal investigation of the officers continues, however. They also declined prosecution of a suspect who assaulted two officers who were contacting him for a "sit/lie" violation (local ordinance prohibiting sitting/laying on the ground during certain hours). Officers were both injured, and the discharge sheet made clear that cases arising from "quality of life" actions will not be prosecuted. In other words, you take on a subject for drinking/crapping/being drunk in public, and it results is an assault on the officers.....no prosecution.

Combine this with a recent incident that resulted in the callout of the DAs Independent Investigation Bureau. Officers respond to a shooting call. Find victim down, suffering from gunshots, but he is also armed, gun in hand. Officers grab a shield, approach cautiously while covering downed suspect, secure his gun, then render aid. Under our policy, pointing a firearm is a reportable use of force that triggers a supervisors investigation. Because the officers "used force" and the person was hospitalized, some genius supervisor thought that meant ring the bell for the IIB.

We are about to make Baltimore look like an aggressive, proactive police department.

Unbelievable. Dennis Prager is correct that leftism, not liberalism, destroys every thing.

The innocent will suffer, and if I were a cop there I would do the minimum until I could make my escape. These politicians and those that voted for them are morally responsible for evil.

[AMC]

Is there a large percentage of officers who find this a refreshing and needed change in policy? Basically asking how many brain dead zombies in blue you have to work with. I can only ponder how this would effect the morale of folks who joined the department to do police work. Watch your back Brother.

There may be a handful of useless report takers who don't mind the new policies, the the overwhelming majority of officers have had their morale utterly destroyed. This is compounded by the total silence of our Command staff on all of these incidents.

As for me, I'm a Training Division pogue now. My fights are with those in our department who think the Ranges only job is to run quals....not to provide training.

[FNFAN]

There may be a handful of useless report takers who don't mind the new policies, the the overwhelming majority of officers have had their morale utterly destroyed. This is compounded by the total silence of our Command staff on all of these incidents.

As for me, I'm a Training Division pogue now. My fights are with those in our department who think the Ranges only job is to run quals....not to provide training.

Well, that's a positive. They haven't yet started selecting out candidates that might hold troublesome values. Good luck with the training post! Sounds like that commercial with the guy that says, "No, I'm no a Security Guard, I'm a Security Monitor." Some places want a Range Officer and some want a Firearms Trainer. IIRC your state's pension system is highly portable if it goes to shite.

[Mark D]

....new DA has declined prosecution of the suspect for the assault on the officers.

This state is heading for serious problems.

[blues]

Lemme make sure I got this right. Smash a glass bottle on an officers face, and it's all good in San Francisco - no charges. Is that an accurate summary? If it is, this state is heading for serious problems.

Heading? I think you may have fallen asleep on the bus.

(But, yeah. Undoubtedly.)

[SCCY Marshal]

...My fights are with those in our department who think the Ranges only job is to run quals....not to provide training.

So that there are even more poorly trained cops getting into uses of force while the laws surrounding become ever more stringent? How does someone wake up that stupid yet dress themselves, make it to work in one piece, and pull an admin grade paycheck?

[AMC]

We are well down this road in California, especially in my native city. And unless the people of your state are way more vigilant and engaged than ours have been....this is coming to your state as well.

As for "weeding out unwanted personality types", yes they are actively doing that. It is apparent in the quality of recruits we are getting, and our high attrition rates. It also explains, partly, the lack of incoming numbers. There just aren't as many of the "acceptable " types applying for the job. City HR has essentially taken over recruiting, and they have eliminated sworn positions from Background Investigations in favor or 960 positions (retirees).....but those are being eliminated as well. Recruiting, hiring and backgrounds will be done entirely by civil service non-sworn folks, who have never pushed a radio car or answered a call.

The focus of training has changed as well. There is a ton of "training".....which 20 years ago would have correctly been referred to as "re-education", said in a Russian accent. Implicit Bias training, Inclusivity, Procedural Justice, De-Escalation, etc. Nothing related to perishable skills and force options (though we do now have a 2 day field tactics course focusing on traffic stops). Due to criminal justice reform and increased "accountability ", I see officers becoming more and more suspicious of, and more hostile to, the increasingly civicly ignorant and disengaged public. This is not a recipe for a healthy free society. It is however, how you build a "police" service whose focus is control, not public safety. We are further down that road than many people want to believe.

Sorry for the rant....but as I said, we're well down that road here.

[Mark D]

I don't think this one's been posted. The City of Vallejo released security footage late Tuesday that showed the moment off-duty Richmond Police Sgt. Virgil Thomas shot and killed 38-year-old Eric Reason last November. Thomas shot and killed Reason in the parking lot of JJ’s Fish and Chicken around 5:30 p.m. on November 10.Reason confronted Thomas over a parking space before retrieving a gun from his car and brandishing it at the off-duty sergeant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2Mq-CNxJ4Q

[Erick Gelhaus]

I don't think this one's been posted. The City of Vallejo released security footage late Tuesday that showed the moment off-duty Richmond Police Sgt. Virgil Thomas shot and killed ... Reason confronted Thomas over a parking space before retrieving a gun from his car and brandishing it at the off-duty sergeant.


This one may not have been discussed here but it's been discussed by several who hang out here. When it came up, Ellifritz shared Hearne's commentary on removing novelty (things you haven't seen, thought of through training) before events occur. I should have understood but didn't, that the use of the engine compartment as a holster by some individuals involved in continuing criminal enterprises isn't common knowledge. Over time, I've recovered from several firearms from engine compartments. In each case, the people involved were gang participants.

[Ed L]

Here is a video that was released of a police officer engaging the two killers in NJ who were holed up in the Jewish Market. The officer seems to be shooting out an upper story window at a shooter firing out of the storefront. If you look below the magazine well of the officer's gun you can see the storefront. The video starts without sound.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=35&v=aKnIjWTE91s&feature=emb_title

[TheNewbie]

Here is a video that was released of a police officer engaging the two killers in NJ who were holed up in the Jewish Market. The officer seems to be shooting out an upper story window at a shooter firing out of the storefront. If you look below the magazine well of the officer's gun you can see the storefront. The video starts without sound.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=35&v=aKnIjWTE91s&feature=emb_title



Is he shooting a Glock 21? Seems larger than a standard frame, but they may just be the video.

Seems like there is either a problem getting the magazine to drop, or he is having issues depressing the release.

[kwb377]

Seems like there is either a problem getting the magazine to drop, or he is having issues depressing the release.

Almost looked like he waited to deal with the empty mag until he had the replacement in hand. But it also looks like he was wearing gloves, so that may have contributed to having difficulty.

[blues]

Almost looked like he waited to deal with the empty mag until he had the replacement in hand. But it also looks like he was wearing gloves, so that may have contributed to having difficulty.

That was my impression. I admit I haven't gone back to view it again, however.

[TGS]

Is he shooting a Glock 21? Seems larger than a standard frame, but they may just be the video.


IIRC, they issue the Glock 22.

[Bart Noir]

Looks like the empty mag was neatly laid next to another empty mag. Or a full one, could not really tell.

[paherne]

I like how calm the officer was, how he took his time to make shots and communicated effectively over the air.

[TheNewbie]

I watched the video on a full screen vs my phone. It no long appears to me that he is having trouble with hitting the mag release. Smart to try and get the high ground and possibly a good angle.

[parishioner]

OIS at Grand Red Line Station in Chicago

Video #1
https://twitter.com/FreeRangeCritic/status/1233537021341323267?s=20


Video #2
https://twitter.com/FreeRangeCritic/status/1233536447749201921?s=20

[parishioner]

OIS at Grand Red Line Station in Chicago

Video #1
https://twitter.com/FreeRangeCritic/status/1233537021341323267?s=20


Video #2
https://twitter.com/FreeRangeCritic/status/1233536447749201921?s=20

Videos here if unable to log into Twitter.


https://youtu.be/WhXRthZWBro


https://youtu.be/3FJ58samkys

[Doc_Glock]

Videos here if unable to log into Twitter.


https://youtu.be/WhXRthZWBro


https://youtu.be/3FJ58samkys

What are the two pops toward the beginning of the first video?

[parishioner]

What are the two pops toward the beginning of the first video?

I’m assuming taser deployments but not sure.

[Doc_Glock]

I’m assuming taser deployments but not sure.

I think you are correct, thanks. I was unaware of the pyrotechnic charge that launches the darts.

[blues]

https://chicago.suntimes.com/crime/2020/2/28/21158400/police-involved-shooting-man-grand-red-line-cta


A Chicago police officer followed a man off a CTA subway train after he was seen walking between train cars, and then shot the man twice during a struggle inside a busy downtown Red Line station during the Friday afternoon rush hour, according to police.

Two officers were taken off the street pending an investigation of the encounter, part of which was captured on video that Mayor Lori Lightfoot called “extremely disturbing” and which police officials suggested could be part of a criminal probe.

FBI, prosecutors reviewing police shooting of man in Red Line station for possible criminal charges
It all happened just hours after interim Chicago Police Supt. Charlie Beck joined Lightfoot and CTA president Dorval Carter to announce a new security plan for the mass transit system, which has seen a rash of shootings in recent weeks.

Lightfoot said in a Friday evening tweet that “with the strong caveat that one perspective does not depict the entirety of the incident, the video is extremely disturbing and the actions by these officers are deeply concerning.”

The sequence started shortly after 4 p.m., when two officers assigned to CPD’s Mass Transit Unit saw a man “jumping from train to train,” police said. They followed him off the train and approached him in the station, still underground, Deputy Supt. Barbara West said.

Both officers used stun guns as they tried to arrest him, then “at some point during the incident, one of the officers discharged a weapon, striking the subject twice,” West said.

Shortly after the shooting, a two-minute cellphone video began circulating on social media, showing both officers on top of the man, struggling with him on the ground near an escalator as they try to handcuff him.

At one point in the video, an officer appears to use pepper spray near the man’s face, and a deployed stun gun rests on the ground nearby.

One of the officers yells, “Give me your hands! Give me your hands!” before shouting, “Stop resisting!” seven times in a row.

The man eventually gets to his feet, stumbling backward, and the same officer can be heard yelling “shoot him” to the other officer.

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/GiQrvTXIjG6ImJMHVUam6izR3JQ=/0x0:790x650/1120x0/filters:focal(0x0:790x650):format(webp):no_upscale ()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/19755750/Screen_Shot_2020_02_28_at_10.12.08_PM.png

[Hambo]

Videos here if unable to log into Twitter.


https://youtu.be/WhXRthZWBro


https://youtu.be/3FJ58samkys

It looks like two Taser failures, OC, and bad ground fighting with no useful assistance from the female officer. Then she fired the first shot while the male officer was behind the suspect.

I read this morning that Charlie Beck has asked the DA to the drop charges against the suspect.

[jd950]

Videos do not always (or perhaps often) capture what the officers are experiencing and one should be careful not jump to conclusions from a BWC or cell video.

Still.....

[TC215]

Phoenix PD:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQiR-G6xWNU

[TGS]

According to article, officer's holster broke off his belt. Partner delivers immediate near-contact head shot.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWpQPn_A798&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR16kvitTZOWJvVRV1YmKQmGFbMLDIU2g_OP1JFNS D5BHJHVuZtpa3AKHo4&bpctr=1583370507

[TheNewbie]

According to article, officer's holster broke off his belt. Partner delivers immediate near-contact head shot.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWpQPn_A798&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR16kvitTZOWJvVRV1YmKQmGFbMLDIU2g_OP1JFNS D5BHJHVuZtpa3AKHo4&bpctr=1583370507

I was about to post this.

Any idea what kind of attachment he had on his holster? It appeared to be a Safariland 6xxx or 7xxx style holster.

[TGS]

I was about to post this.

Any idea what kind of attachment he had on his holster? It appeared to be a Safariland 6xxx or 7xxx style holster.

No idea. I think it's important information to disseminate, and I'm wondering if he was using an MLS QD instead of a QLS, or if the perp actually QD'd the forks. We've noticed that the low ride drop extensions are easier to break, so I'm wondering if he used one of those as well.

[David C.]

No idea. I think it's important information to disseminate, and I'm wondering if he was using an MLS QD instead of a QLS, or if the perp actually QD'd the forks. We've noticed that the low ride drop extensions are easier to break, so I'm wondering if he used one of those as well.

I believe it was a G Code RTI attachment that failed.
49498
See 6:29 in the video at this link:
https://www.10news.com/news/local-news/bodycam-video-shows-deadly-oak-park-officer-involved-shooting?_amp=true

[Doc_Glock]

According to article, officer's holster broke off his belt. Partner delivers immediate near-contact head shot.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWpQPn_A798&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR16kvitTZOWJvVRV1YmKQmGFbMLDIU2g_OP1JFNS D5BHJHVuZtpa3AKHo4&bpctr=1583370507


Any idea why they would persist in a foot pursuit over an open alcohol container? That seemed super dangerous to the criminal and the cops running through traffic and ultimately ended in the criminal's death. For an open container....

[Glendive]

I dont think he died because of the open container, it was disarming the officer that did him in. Chasing people used to be what cops did.

[TGS]

Any idea why they would persist in a foot pursuit over an open alcohol container? That seemed super dangerous to the criminal and the cops running through traffic and ultimately ended in the criminal's death. For an open container....

Obvious remark: Maybe there's something we don't know. He could be known to them. There could be more to the story, as there often is. It could be a targeted enforcement area. Maybe not. We don't know.

Other than that:

1) In general, people who run are running for a reason. They've got drugs, guns, warrants, or some combination of. So, the initial RS might not be very severe, but that minor stop often (quite often) leads to felonies that they're committing but trying to escape from.

2) Running from the police is a crime in many places (I'm not sure about this location; I have no specific knowledge). So, the police are simply pursuing a crime (well, possibly multiple at this point depending on the crime). The point of the police is to pursue crime. Not sure how else to explain this other than asking: they're cops, what would you rather them do when someone chooses to evade lawful enforcement actions?

3) He didn't die for an open container violation. He died for disarming a police officer of his firearm, presumably to use it against him while actively resisting arrest.

What's appropriate to pursue is up to a given locale and their laws, policies, and culture. There was recently discussion on the forum and insults thrown around regarding such, so anyone's personal views may differ on the appropriate threshold to pursue. Regardless of such, the police were policing, and the dude died for trying to kill a police officer during a violent struggle where he was resisting a lawful arrest.

[DpdG]

Is the G-Code stuff generally considered duty-ready? I’ve only seen it is use for competition/training locally and given the quality of the Safariland QLS system, I can’t say I’ve put much thought into using a third party vendor for QD between a Safariland belt shank and holster.

None of the equipment discussion is meant to criticize or counteract the point that intentionally disarming an officer creates a lethal force encounter.

[Foxy Brown]

Any idea why they would persist in a foot pursuit over an open alcohol container? That seemed super dangerous to the criminal and the cops running through traffic and ultimately ended in the criminal's death. For an open container....

It looked to me like they rolled up looking for this individual or someone matching a description. They rolled in pretty fast as if they had a description of the man already and found the person they wanted.

[AMC]

It looked to me like they rolled up looking for this individual or someone matching a description. They rolled in pretty fast as if they had a description of the man already and found the person they wanted.

This. They rolled in with a purpose, and attempted to position to stop his walking away.

This is the reality of police work. You don't know what the suspect knows. Twenty years ago my partner and I tried to stop a driver for no headlights on at night. He sped off. Back then, we could pursue for traffic violations and failure to yield, within reason. The pursuit was short (he got stuck in traffic a few block later), then he bailed and it was a foot chase for three blocks. Unbeknownst to us, he was a Parolee at Large who was on a drug fueled armed robbery binge in a stolen car. Five minutes earlier he had pistol whipped a 60 year old nurse, breaking her orbital socket and cheekbone. There were 8 stolen purses in the back of that stolen car. He ended up pulling a gun on us when he ran into a fenced parking lot and had nowhere to go. Spoiler: he lost. His right leg and his right lung. Still went away 25 to life.

Traffic stops are a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get. Noteworthy is that today....that guy continues his spree, injuring and maybe killing someone, as long as he stays in the car. No pursuit.

[Foxy Brown]

In my old agency, the street crimes guys would have uniforms come in to scoop up people their CIs had ratted on. They would have patrol bring the suspect back to the PD to question them further and protect the identity of the CI. Usually petty issues like “open container” were used for the pretextual stop.

Thankfully, in my new agency, we are allowed to be police still. A beat partner had a traffic stop on a vehicle suspected to be involved in a string of car burglaries. They fled. He chased and got them. Pulled 4 hand guns out of the car and hooked 4 known felons from the major city an hour south of me.

[lwt16]

Any idea why they would persist in a foot pursuit over an open alcohol container? That seemed super dangerous to the criminal and the cops running through traffic and ultimately ended in the criminal's death. For an open container....

Most of our "open container" regulars are also homeless who stand at major intersections and hold their hand out and folks stop left and right to "help them".

Little do they know that when they stop in traffic....usually on a green light......they cause a metric ton of crashes behind them....some with serious injuries when motorcyclist are forced to stop on a green due to traffic and some old lady with bad eye sight and a huge Buick run over the M/C guy. Lost limbs....deaths......

Homeless open container dude just wanders off to enjoy the quick cash and his next fix. Meanwhile, cops like those two in the video come clean up the aftermath. Another cute thing they do is get good and drunk on the love offerings of the day and stumble and fall out into traffic. On the rare occasion, this causes some driver to swerve violently and take out a pedestrian further on down the road when they over-correct and go up on the sidewalk.

So yeah. Chasing these guys down when they run? After being told not to for valid, lawful reasons? Yeah....we do that all of the time. Because people get tired of destruction and mayhem on their daily commute. And they call it in and say "why aren't y'all doing anything about this????"

Is that a reason to face shoot him? No, and that is why they were using just the basic force to get him in custody.

But......

HE CHOSE TO DISARM A COP. His choices caused the outcome.

I've survived gun grabs in fights for little, stupid charges. Sometimes they are just grabbing for dear life in the moment....other times they are trying their level best to gain control of a weapon.

What difference does it really make his motivation to do so? You get control of my partner's gun, I'm punching your ticket in a most violent fashion.

Truly hope this helps.

[jd950]

Is the G-Code stuff generally considered duty-ready?

After seeing the video, I would vote no, but interested in hearing more about his. Most agencies I know of would likely view it as an impermissible modification to a Safariland holster, but that doesn't mean much; modifying a duty gun with grips that fit the hand better or sights that suit one's eyes better or moving a baton holder a couple inches can induce stroke-like symptoms in certain people in some of those agencies.

[blues]

As everyone in and out of uniform knows, the unknown and a moment's complacency can kill you. You don't know what you don't know at any given moment.

https://www.odmp.org/officer/reflections/12953-police-officer-gary-r-stymiloski

Gary was the first officer I worked with that died on the job. It was a bitter pill to swallow...and a lesson learned for life.

[Doc_Glock]

Most of our "open container" regulars are also homeless who stand at major intersections and hold their hand out and folks stop left and right to "help them".

Little do they know that when they stop in traffic....usually on a green light......they cause a metric ton of crashes behind them....some with serious injuries when motorcyclist are forced to stop on a green due to traffic and some old lady with bad eye sight and a huge Buick run over the M/C guy. Lost limbs....deaths......

Homeless open container dude just wanders off to enjoy the quick cash and his next fix. Meanwhile, cops like those two in the video come clean up the aftermath. Another cute thing they do is get good and drunk on the love offerings of the day and stumble and fall out into traffic. On the rare occasion, this causes some driver to swerve violently and take out a pedestrian further on down the road when they over-correct and go up on the sidewalk.

So yeah. Chasing these guys down when they run? After being told not to for valid, lawful reasons? Yeah....we do that all of the time. Because people get tired of destruction and mayhem on their daily commute. And they call it in and say "why aren't y'all doing anything about this????"

Is that a reason to face shoot him? No, and that is why they were using just the basic force to get him in custody.

But......

HE CHOSE TO DISARM A COP. His choices caused the outcome.

I've survived gun grabs in fights for little, stupid charges. Sometimes they are just grabbing for dear life in the moment....other times they are trying their level best to gain control of a weapon.

What difference does it really make his motivation to do so? You get control of my partner's gun, I'm punching your ticket in a most violent fashion.

Truly hope this helps.

It does definitely help.

To be clear I am not questioning the decision to use deadly force at the end of this one. That is a done deal and extremely clear.

I am pretty surprised the cops would chase him into traffic at the risk of their own lives. Especially when the intro to the video states it was an "open container" violation. Distraction while driving is huge, and it would be so easy to get target focused then killed by some driver who isn't paying attention. If this is what good, aggressive policing looks like, and you and TGS have clearly delineated that it is part of the job, then good for them. We need more cops willing to do this.

[TheNewbie]

As everyone in and out of uniform knows, the unknown and a moment's complacency can kill you. You don't know what you don't know at any given moment.

https://www.odmp.org/officer/reflections/12953-police-officer-gary-r-stymiloski

Gary was the first officer I worked with that died on the job. It was a bitter pill to swallow...and a lesson learned for life.


Blues, were you on the job when the US Customs Inspector was kidnapped at a Texas/Mexico POE and later executed?

[blues]

Blues, were you on the job when the US Customs Inspector was kidnapped at a Texas/Mexico POE and later executed?

I should remember the incident but it doesn't come to mind immediately.

The one that I knew personally and was a friend, (and had the pleasure of arresting the scum that he was chasing on the night of his death), was this case (https://www.odmp.org/officer/11687-pilot-george-reyes-saenz).

I knew one other Customs agent that was murdered at his home in Atlanta by an escaped murderer, but unrelated directly to his work.


A few blocks away, David Wilhelm, an off-duty assistant special agent in charge at the United States Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agency, was working on a new home he and his wife were building on Canter Road when Mr. Nichols apparently found him. Mr. Wilhelm's body was found by a construction worker at 6:30 or 7 a.m., the police said.

Mr. Nichols had taken the agent's badge, gun and blue Chevrolet truck, the police said. He drove the truck 15 miles northeast to the Bridgewater complex. There, some time in the very early morning, Mr. Nichols saw a woman entering her apartment and forced his way in, the police said.

[TheNewbie]

I should remember the incident but it doesn't come to mind immediately.

The one that I knew personally and was a friend, (and had the pleasure of arresting the scum that he was chasing on the night of his death), was this case (https://www.odmp.org/officer/11687-pilot-george-reyes-saenz).

I knew one other Customs agent that was murdered at his home in Atlanta by an escaped murderer, but unrelated directly to his work.

I’m sorry about the loss of your friens, but I’m glad both guilty parties paid a price for their evil.

This is the one I’m thinking about.

https://www.odmp.org/officer/7933-inspector-richard-mack-latham

[blues]

I’m sorry about the loss of your friens, but I’m glad both guilty parties paid a price for their evil.

This is the one I’m thinking about.

https://www.odmp.org/officer/7933-inspector-richard-mack-latham

Thanks, Newb. That's a terrible tale. I was still working in NYC at the time for a different Treasury outfit. Probably why it doesn't come to mind like the murders of Kiki Camarena and, a few years later, Everett Hatcher (also DEA).

[KeeFus]

Raleigh PD shot one last night in the abdomen last night. They had some issues with the locals later on.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=js5fcJUbAqE&list=PL0kBIN5Zbb7KO_urpzyXTMCnvutTTNBH1&index=2

[AMC]

Raleigh PD shot one last night in the abdomen last night. They had some issues with the locals later on.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=js5fcJUbAqE&list=PL0kBIN5Zbb7KO_urpzyXTMCnvutTTNBH1&index=2

They released Bodycam an Dashcam footage from a shooting yesterday? Wow.

[KeeFus]

They released Bodycam an Dashcam footage from a shooting yesterday? Wow.

They’ve had a few OIS the past few months...and, while I don’t like some of her decisions, she stands behind her officers...EVERY TIME. That means a lot.

With this OIS there was some bad reporting by a local new agency that sent a false narrative...that’s the reason behind the quick release.

[jnc36rcpd]

Many police agencies, as well as police unions and union attorneys, keep it zipped tight after use of force incidents. In the case of the agencies, I suspect it is caused by fear they will defend an officer if it turns out the shoot or other force usage was bad. With unions and their attorneys, I think it is often a lack of experience and knowledge of the real world in 2020. (Trust me on this, stupidity by FOP lodges and attorneys was occurring in 1984 in Maryland. Ask me how I know.)

If we don't get our story (which is the truth with almost all agencies) out there, preferably backed with video,the news media will get their version from the bad guys.

Bravo zulu to this agency on all levels.

[Coyotesfan97]

Any idea why they would persist in a foot pursuit over an open alcohol container? That seemed super dangerous to the criminal and the cops running through traffic and ultimately ended in the criminal's death. For an open container....

You know how you catch dangerous, wanted people? You do it by enforcing the smaller things. If a suspect runs and fights like that I’m thinking there’s a lot more going on than an open container. He chose to run, he chose to fight and resist, and he chose to take the Officer’s gun. He made all the bad life choices and they reacted to it.

[SCCY Marshal]

...They had some issues with the locals later on...

To campaign against a perceived mistreatment of marginalized members of society, an angry crowd surrounded the home of a small-statured woman of color? To the point her officers had to place a protective detail at her home to protect her, a female minority, from a mass of people out to intimidate. I'm not surprised but am still shaking my head in disbelief at the sheer irony. At least she put on her uniform, went out before sunrise, and had the wherewithal to scold the media and anyone watching for it.

[KeeFus]

To campaign against a perceived mistreatment of marginalized members of society, an angry crowd surrounded the home of a small-statured woman of color? To the point her officers had to place a protective detail at her home to protect her, a female minority, from a mass of people out to intimidate. I'm not surprised but am still shaking my head in disbelief at the sheer irony. At least she put on her uniform, went out before sunrise, and had the wherewithal to scold the media and anyone watching for it.

Yea, I found out about all that later on. They also visited the mayors house and the Governors mansion, which led to a large response of SHP Troopers going to Raleigh.

Like I said, they've had a few OIS lately...and she has stood behind the officers every time. The WTVD reporter should be fired for swirling that shit up like he did.

[UNM1136]

You know how you catch dangerous, wanted people? You do it by enforcing the smaller things. If a suspect runs and fights like that I’m thinking there’s a lot more going on than an open container. He chose to run, he chose to fight and resist, and he chose to take the Officer’s gun. He made all the bad life choices and they reacted to it.

To expand on this, that is why traffic stops are so dangerous. We make a stop for a seat belt violation, or a stop sign violation, if the person is a bad guy he already knows what he has done, even he doesn't know why he is being stopped. I have stopped guys leaving burglaries. Homicide suspects. Felons with guns. I was just driving behind a guy who I knew was drunk, but the indicator and legal reason for stop would have been crossing out of his traffic lane without signaling. One thing we try to teach is <cringe> to look beyond the stop...several of you will recognize the phrase and know where it came from. What else could possibly be going on here? Why would this guy be doing this? Sometimes it is a simple brain fart, or lack of attention, but sometime there is truly heinous stuff afoot and it is up to us to figure out what is up with very little clues. Ted Bundy spoke to a cop with one of his victims trussed up in the passenger seat next to him and covered with a blanket.

Last month I got into a fight with a guy when he figured out that I knew he lied to me about his name. I had indices that he was up to no good, but until he lied to me about his name, I really didn't have a reason to detain him. So he lied, then he tried to run, and then he fought. What he knew when I stopped him, was that he had just stolen a motor scooter, he was a felon that had failed to comply with his probation agreement and had a no bond pick up order from Adult Probation and Parole, and was going to prison for a while when he got caught, and he had burglary tools, a concealed weapon, and a crack pipe in his pocket. He knew that before I ever noticed him, let alone stopped him, and he tried to play the odds, that I wasn't going to notice or follow up on what I noticed was wrong. A simple motorist assist turned into a physical fight with several levels of WTF?, levels of issues that I would not be fully aware of until after I won the fight and investigated further. I really didn't want to be rolling in the street in the upper teens in temperature at 20 minutes to shift change. Any plausilble explanation without a point to follow up on would have caused me to go away and mind my own beezwax. Investigations are frequently concluded by pulling on a thread, seemingly minor at the time and maybe inconsequential, and seeing what falls apart. One of my early street sergents used to tell me "you get paid to be curious, and then to try to satisfy that curiosity."

Big criminals frequently commit small crimes.

Time for bed....

pat

[jnc36rcpd]

In my salad days, a young prosecutor asked me how I cited so many suspended drivers. I told him that I worked midnight shift and stopped a ton of cars for equipment violations. In Maryland, equipment violations are usually issued a repair order rather than an actual citation. That will cost the vehicle owner money for repairs, but no traffic record or fine.

Today, of course, advocates of progressive justice argue that equipment stops are "predatory policing" and inherently biased. On the other hand, few pedestrians struck vehicles much care why the driver had an inoperable headlight.

That young prosecutor is now chief judge of the county's circuit court. I'm pretty much nothing.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Many police agencies, as well as police unions and union attorneys, keep it zipped tight after use of force incidents. In the case of the agencies, I suspect it is caused by fear they will defend an officer if it turns out the shoot or other force usage was bad. With unions and their attorneys, I think it is often a lack of experience and knowledge of the real world in 2020. (Trust me on this, stupidity by FOP lodges and attorneys was occurring in 1984 in Maryland. Ask me how I know.)

If we don't get our story (which is the truth with almost all agencies) out there, preferably backed with video,the news media will get their version from the bad guys.

Bravo zulu to this agency on all levels.

From my perspective, this has been L/E's biggest failure and is likely a very significant part of why we are facing the public's idiocracy on use of force/use of deadly force issues. When we don't, won't explain what happened and why then we are ceding that conversation to the activists, the media, politicians, etc.

[HCM]

OIS with Red Dot Pistol - Las Vegas Metro Police.


https://youtu.be/pQgiDMGD4J0

[Caballoflaco]

OIS with Red Dot Pistol - Las Vegas Metro Police.



You forgot to mention the shootee had a PX4, which makes this maybe the most PF OIS yet posted.

[blues]

Yea, I found out about all that later on. They also visited the mayors house and the Governors mansion, which led to a large response of SHP Troopers going to Raleigh.

Like I said, they've had a few OIS lately...and she has stood behind the officers every time. The WTVD reporter should be fired for swirling that shit up like he did.

What a surprise that no apology for getting it wrong was issued by those who decided to jump to conclusions and take to the streets. :rolleyes:




Amid tension, police shooting report says suspect raised gun

A man wounded by police in a case that sparked protests around North Carolina’s capital city was raising a gun when he was shot, according to a preliminary investigative report, which comes as community activists press for increased police transparency and accountability.

The shooting of Javier Torres, 26, on March 10 ignited spontaneous demonstrations around Raleigh after social media rumors incorrectly suggested an unarmed 16-year-old was shot and killed. Hours after the shooting, news video showed crowds at the home of Raleigh Police Chief Cassandra Deck-Brown, demanding to see her. Outside the governor’s mansion, protesters burned a flag in the street.

Zainab Baloch, a member of the nonprofit Raleigh Police Accountability Community Taskforce, said that regardless of initial confusion about the age of the person shot, the protests reflected pent-up frustration surrounding recent officer-involved shootings in Raleigh, including two fatal shootings in the past year.

“The situation with the confusion around Javier’s shooting doesn’t change the fact that there are major racial discrepancies in policing in Raleigh, and our Black and Brown communities are being subjected to constant trauma and death due to the lack of accountability,” she said in response to a Twitter message.

https://apnews.com/07ec89413726eb45d79647c47409d415

[Keith E.]

I hadn't seen this one posted yet........... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuvQo98h47o
Officer took some birdshot to the shoulder but is GTG.

Keith

[TC215]

Louisville Metro:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBYI-e-JmH4&feature=emb_logo

https://www.tactical-life.com/news/louisville-metro-officer-close-up-shot/

[TC215]

Reminds me of Ralphie beating up Scott Farkus.


https://www.facebook.com/karl.bush.79/videos/10216997993326804/

[AMC]

Reminds me of Ralphie beating up Scott Farkus.


https://www.facebook.com/karl.bush.79/videos/10216997993326804/

That clearly did not go how Mr.Redshirt thought it would go.

[jnc36rcpd]

I would never have had to warn that officer about the perils of Taser codependency.

[LockedBreech]

Louisville Metro:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBYI-e-JmH4&feature=emb_logo

https://www.tactical-life.com/news/louisville-metro-officer-close-up-shot/

Oh man, that was hairy. Great reflexes but major pucker factor on the potential crossfire. Glad all the good guys are okay.

[rathos]

This one happened in my town, but with the city department not mine. Cops were responding to reports of brandishing a large knife/machete and a possible robbery. Unfortunately the person that took this video put music over it so you can't hear the commands or the less lethal stuff. The first one gets hit with a 40mm and then they send the dog. The second one that gets a ride with the ECW took a probe to the face.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUnbzc_d4Ew

[Coyotesfan97]

I thought the dog was going to take the leg but he surprised me going to the arm. Good bite taking the moving suspect. The lockup on the taser was outstanding.

[Mark D]

This one happened in my town, but with the city department not mine. Cops were responding to reports of brandishing a large knife/machete and a possible robbery. Unfortunately the person that took this video put music over it so you can't hear the commands or the less lethal stuff. The first one gets hit with a 40mm and then they send the dog. The second one that gets a ride with the ECW took a probe to the face.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUnbzc_d4Ew

Just curious - is there a high risk for head injury when somebody goes down to a taser like that? Not criticizing, genuinely interested.

[rathos]

Yes, as does a taser probe to the face. However when you attack a police dog you are lucky to only get a ride of Edison medicine.


Just curious - is there a high risk for head injury when somebody goes down to a taser like that? Not criticizing, genuinely interested.

[BehindBlueI's]

Just curious - is there a high risk for head injury when somebody goes down to a taser like that? Not criticizing, genuinely interested.

Sure, any fall can lead to bruising or the like. Serious head injury? Never seen it. Tasers overall reduce the number and severity of injuries to both suspects and officers.

[UNM1136]

Sure, any fall can lead to bruising or the like. Serious head injury? Never seen it. Tasers overall reduce the number and severity of injuries to both suspects and officers.

In my agency I am a decade long taser instructor and a multi decade user. I have tased more cops in training than suspects in the field. Despite Taser International moving the goal posts on a regular basis serious injuries are the the exception, rather than the rule. The worst injury I have seen was facial injuries on a suspect that tried to run a few years ago who fell down and went boom....

Tasers are good stuff, when used properly. They don't always work as well as they should, but they work more often than not.

pat

[UNM1136]

Just curious - is there a high risk for head injury when somebody goes down to a taser like that? Not criticizing, genuinely interested.

Yes, there is a risk of,a head injury, but really, what are the options??? One of the biggest decision making issues is how do we resolve this situation with the fewest casualties? The officer that takes the decision to use that level of force has to be able to explain (justify) it. Taser training has changed over the last few years to accommodate those issues. Tasers have fewer residual issues than OC, or baton strikes, but they still require justification.

So yes, the tasing officer owns the decision, and its potential outcomes....

I have been tased a few times, and would rather be tased than OC'd any day of the week.

There are a lot of rules concerning Tasers and their applications to suspects (raised platform, running on a hard surface, under water applications,etc), but when the Taser is the right tool for the job, nothing else quite works so well. I have had taser failures, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

If someone is acting in a manner that a resonable officer would feel the need to dump them, whether with a taser or not, they would likely need to be dumped. You can dump someone with a taser, OC, a baton, or an armbar...each option has potential residual effects, but there you are.

Take a decision, or don't...you will have to answer for your decisions one way or another. Do or do not. There is no try.

In my experience the Taser is the far lesser use of force than elbows, knees, OC, or baton strokes.

pat

[jnc36rcpd]

I recall a civil case in which the suspect fell face forward after being Tasered and lost some teeth some years ago. Either the officer was somewhat fast to deploy on a possible mentally ill subject who hadn't committed any serious crimes or, alternatively, the city/county defense was weak on articulation on why the officer deployed the Taser. Poor articulation by the agency and its legal counsel, good media relations by plaintiff attorneys, and media bias against law enforcement frequently influence opinions on use of force.

Tasers are very effective police tools. Their deployment has vastly reduced injuries and deaths to both suspects and LEO's. Unfortunately, when deployed, the suspect's attorney, the family, and the media consider it electronic torture. When Tasers are not used or are ineffective, the same parties consider it a failure by law enforcement.

As great as Tasers are, they are not be-all/end-all less-lethal weapons. Tasers fail frequently. Tasers require two probes to deploy on wires to parts of the suspect's body to cause "lock up" the suspect. Heavy clothing, body fat, and misses by one or both probes are often causes of failures, While my data is a few years old, effectiveness is my former agency (matched by LAPD and Topeka at the same time) rated effectiveness at 50-60%.

[Mark D]

Yes, as does a taser probe to the face. However when you attack a police dog you are lucky to only get a ride of Edison medicine.


Sure, any fall can lead to bruising or the like. Serious head injury? Never seen it. Tasers overall reduce the number and severity of injuries to both suspects and officers.


In my agency I am a decade long taser instructor and a multi decade user. I have tased more cops in training than suspects in the field. Despite Taser International moving the goal posts on a regular basis serious injuries are the the exception, rather than the rule. The worst injury I have seen was facial injuries on a suspect that tried to run a few years ago who fell down and went boom....

Tasers are good stuff, when used properly. They don't always work as well as they should, but they work more often than not.

pat


Yes, there is a risk of,a head injury, but really, what are the options??? One of the biggest decision making issues is how do we resolve this situation with the fewest casualties? The officer that takes the decision to use that level of force has to be able to explain (justify) it. Taser training has changed over the last few years to accommodate those issues. Tasers have fewer residual issues than OC, or baton strikes, but they still require justification.

So yes, the tasing officer owns the decision, and its potential outcomes....

I have been tased a few times, and would rather be tased than OC'd any day of the week.

There are a lot of rules concerning Tasers and their applications to suspects (raised platform, running on a hard surface, under water applications,etc), but when the Taser is the right tool for the job, nothing else quite works so well. I have had taser failures, but they are the exception rather than the rule.

If someone is acting in a manner that a resonable officer would feel the need to dump them, whether with a taser or not, they would likely need to be dumped. You can dump someone with a taser, OC, a baton, or an armbar...each option has potential residual effects, but there you are.

Take a decision, or don't...you will have to answer for your decisions one way or another. Do or do not. There is no try.

In my experience the Taser is the far lesser use of force than elbows, knees, OC, or baton strokes.

pat

I appreciate the feedback and info. For clarity, I wasn't questioning the use of force. From my layperson's perspective, it looked entirely reasonable.

[HCM]

https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-police-officer-shoved-harlem-subway-tracks-20200418-guhbagn2brcjjdprbjv6qnutii-story.html

Crazed suspect kicks cop onto Harlem subway tracks as he’s placed under arrest


A police officer patrolling a Harlem subway station survived a cop’s worst nightmare Friday when she was kicked onto the tracks during an early-morning arrest of a suspected fare beater that was captured on video.
Officer Carolyn Anderson fractured her right wrist during the frightening fall after she and another officer tried to subdue the suspect shortly after 2 a.m. at the 125th Street station along the Lexington Avenue line, said law enforcement sources.

Anderson tried to secure the legs of Anquando Johnson, 25, while her partner, rookie cop Elijah Pardieu, pressed his arms and torso to the platform floor, the harrowing cell phone video shows.
The cell phone cameraman, Joaquin Santiago, said Johnson spit on the cops during the struggle. “I was shocked by the whole thing,” Santiago said. “I just took out my phone and started shooting."


It appeared to Santiago that officers Anderson and Pardieu were seeking Johnson before they tried to arrest him. “He came down the stairs and they came after him,” Santiago said. "They were looking for him. One of them said, ‘Is that him?’ And he said, ‘Yeah, it’s me.’”
When he was finally cuffed and placed on a stretcher, Johnson spewed more bitter words and spit at another cop, said sources.
"I have needles,” he said, according to a source. “I hope you catch HIV.”

“He turned while he was being handcuffed and spit in the cops face. And this during the coronavirus,” Santiago said.



https://youtu.be/sVz-MhG75kM

[vcdgrips]

But for the grace of God she does not get smashed by an incoming train, let alone basic head trauma from a fall like that.

It's COVID Time, they know they are being filmed by passers-by and/or security cameras. Not easy to police in NYC subway, even on a good day.

After the first time he kicked, I have to wonder whether they would have been within policy to land strikes and /or deploy OC.

She is blessed.

[TC215]

Sure, any fall can lead to bruising or the like. Serious head injury? Never seen it. Tasers overall reduce the number and severity of injuries to both suspects and officers.

I'm aware of several. My former agency changed the taser policy to where we could only tase fleeing suspects if they were wanted for a felony because of it.

[UNM1136]

I appreciate the feedback and info. For clarity, I wasn't questioning the use of force. From my layperson's perspective, it looked entirely reasonable.

If I came across as...errr...cross, then I apologize. The first bad guy I tazed in the field was a burglar running away from me. When I tazed him he assumed the plywood position and fell face first on the sidewalk, breaking every bone in the right side of his face. The continuum of force frowns on that now....


pat

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm aware of several. My former agency changed the taser policy to where we could only tase fleeing suspects if they were wanted for a felony because of it.

What are you considering 'serious'?

[HCM]

But for the grace of God she does not get smashed by an incoming train, let alone basic head trauma from a fall like that.

It's COVID Time, they know they are being filmed by passers-by and/or security cameras. Not easy to police in NYC subway, even on a good day.

After the first time he kicked, I have to wonder whether they would have been within policy to land strikes and /or deploy OC.

She is blessed.

NYC subways run on electric. Grace of god she didn’t hit or roll onto the third rail too.

OC primarily relies on pain compliance and IME crazy people don’t feel pain when spun up. Him kicking is assault and for my (and most agencies) strikes, including Baton strikes would be within policy but look like crap on video.

LVNR needs to make a come back.

On a cultural note, turnstile jumping is only a misdemeanor but NYPD Transit takes I seriously because the overwhelming majority of felonies and violent crimes committed in the transit system are committed by turnstile jumpers, i.e. most turnstile jumpers are more than turnstile jumpers.

[blues]

Having had my share of episodes on the NYC subway system, I concur. Have seen some bad things in that subterranean arena.

[TC215]

What are you considering 'serious'?

Injury to the brain or a fractured skull, I guess.


The rule change is a step in the right direction, said Dominique Franklin Sr., whose 23-year-old son died after an officer deployed a Taser while trying to arrest him for allegedly stealing a bottle of vodka from a downtown convenience store in 2014. Dominique Franklin Jr. fell and hit his head on a pole, suffering a fatal head injury.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-met-chicago-police-taser-force-rules-20171218-story.html

Also:

http://www.rightthisminute.com/video/woman-hits-head-after-being-tased-suffers-brain-injury

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-41593006

https://europepmc.org/article/med/27423132

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9097674/Woman-left-brain-dead-after-being-hit-by-police-taser.html

https://billingsgazette.com/news/state-and-regional/montana/man-sues-bozeman-police-over-use-of-taser/article_22c7da00-8d9b-11de-93c8-001cc4c03286.html

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/26885773/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/man-falls-death-after-police-stun-gun-shock/#.XpuEKy2ZNQI

https://www.tampabay.com/news/crime/2019/11/21/police-are-limiting-tasers-as-people-die-but-pinellas-sheriff-wont/

https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2015/01/23/st-paul-man-dies-of-head-injury/

https://www.cnn.com/2014/01/31/us/texas-taser-high-school-student-coma/index.html

https://www.joplinglobe.com/news/local_news/man-injured-in-police-use-of-stun-gun-remains-in/article_1436d375-2519-5ea6-8083-79fc5573d948.html

http://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/17/17-20350-CV0.pdf

[BehindBlueI's]

Injury to the brain or a fractured skull, I guess.


Ha, yeah that'd count. I guess our ground is softer and heads are harder. As far as I'm aware we've yet to have anything that would count as SBI from a tasing and I worked in the office that would have investigated it.

We're not allowed to tase for fleeing only anyway, though. Nor if they are standing on something they can fall off of, on a bicycle, etc.

[TC215]

Ha, yeah that'd count. I guess our ground is softer and heads are harder. As far as I'm aware we've yet to have anything that would count as SBI from a tasing and I worked in the office that would have investigated it.

We're not allowed to tase for fleeing only anyway, though. Nor if they are standing on something they can fall off of, on a bicycle, etc.

Seems like a lot of the time, when you tase somebody running (or at least when I have), the connection isn't good enough to get the full lock-up when they go down.

I have seen a couple people lock up hard and go skidding down the road on their face, though.

[Mark D]

If I came across as...errr...cross, then I apologize. The first bad guy I tazed in the field was a burglar running away from me. When I tazed him he assumed the plywood position and fell face first on the sidewalk, breaking every bone in the right side of his face. The continuum of force frowns on that now....


pat

No apology necessary. :) In hindsight, my post implied disapproval of that particular UOF, or Tasers in general. That was not my intention.

For what it's worth, I remember when running from the police, or fighting them, had... consequences. And everybody understood that. I think modern UOF policies often hamstring officers and can cause more harm then good. But I'm out of my lane, and probably preaching to the choir.

[jnc36rcpd]

My former chief could be pretty open-minded and progressive, but could also get jittery over the possibility of being blamed for anything. *Good grief, it was annoying to have to prepare back-to-back responses to both the IACP and PERF position papers on ECD's. I never thought I'd ever think IACP was reasonable.) As a result, the Fourth Circuit decision did not really affect our policies or procedures.

TC215's references do provide a list of incidents in which Taser deployments have likely caused injuries. Props to TC for his research, but some--certainly not all--the articles seem somewhat one-sided. A couple reference incidents where officers allegedly violated Axon training guidelines. In any event, our protocols changed to require a suspect pose a threat to the officers or people other than self. By the time I left, I bluntly told people that a stationary subject cutting his wrists with a knife in a suicide attempt could not be tasered. I suspect most officers realized that I would figure a way to justify Taser deployment in that circumstance, but I could not see a way to put that in the lesson plan. My recommendation was to await unconsciousness, disarm and control the subject, and begin medical treatment.

I also realized that our Sabre Red pepper spray tended to be more effective than the Taser. As a bonus, while pepper sprayed suspects are often incapacitated, they generally don't fall like a dropped beer mug.

As I look back on my largely pointless career with my former department, one of my many regrets is that I did not push for more extensive initial and sustainment training for Taser operators. We would have been better served with fewer Tasers on the street, but with more extensively trained operators. While our allied county agency makes Taser operators jump through the hoops of attending CIT training, pretty much anyone who wants a Taser can get one so I doubt lengthier training times would have been an easy sell. That said, I should have tried, especially as I probably could have sold it.

[UNM1136]

If I came across as...errr...cross, then I apologize. The first bad guy I tazed in the field was a burglar running away from me. When I tazed him he assumed the plywood position and fell face first on the sidewalk, breaking every bone in the right side of his face. The continuum of force frowns on that now....


pat

Ironically, a couple of decades before I was working private security at a concert. Before I was a cop, but working for a security company that provided some training to their personnel.... had a combtive fan who I OC'd as he turned to hit a female officer, who definately should have kept her mouth shut, turned around and started running, tripped on the curb, and fell face first into a trash can. Broke every bone in the right side of his face.

pat

[TC215]

TC215's references do provide a list of incidents in which Taser deployments have likely caused injuries. Props to TC for his research, but some--certainly not all--the articles seem somewhat one-sided. A couple reference incidents where officers allegedly violated Axon training guidelines. In any event, our protocols changed to require a suspect pose a threat to the officers or people other than self. By the time I left, I bluntly told people that a stationary subject cutting his wrists with a knife in a suicide attempt could not be tasered. I suspect most officers realized that I would figure a way to justify Taser deployment in that circumstance, but I could not see a way to put that in the lesson plan. My recommendation was to await unconsciousness, disarm and control the subject, and begin medical treatment.

To be clear, I was just looking for examples. Some of the articles are definitely one-sided. There were also examples where people fell and hit their head after being tased when deadly force would have been justified anyway.

[jnc36rcpd]

No worries, TC. When Tasers produce neuromuscular incapacitatation, subjects tend to fall like like rocks. While the falls rarely cause serious injury, they do have that potential. I didn't have any other examples other than the one I mentioned.

UNM, of course, is the unicorn with a serious injury caused by OC deployment (well, actually, by the suspect being stupid). An advantage of OC is that the suspect usually doesn't collapse, but may seek the deck on his own to establish balance.

UNM, that must have been a great concert.

[BehindBlueI's]

Ironically, a couple of decades before I was working private security at a concert. Before I was a cop, but working for a security company that provided some training to their personnel.... had a combtive fan who I OC'd as he turned to hit a female officer, who definately should have kept her mouth shut, turned around and started running, tripped on the curb, and fell face first into a trash can. Broke every bone in the right side of his face.

pat

Yup. Every use of force has the risk of injury. I can assure you I've inflicted and received significantly more, and more serious, injuries unarmed or with a mag-lite then with a Taser.

[KeeFus]

LVMPD

One officer had a G41 with optic.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hpGLxi68zw

[HCM]

LVMPD

One officer had a G41 with optic.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hpGLxi68zw

AFAIK this is LVMPD’s 3rd RMR OIS this year.

[Erick Gelhaus]

I really like how LVMPD handles their video releases. While the LAPD style isn't bad at all, I think the LVMPD is a better product.

If you're interested, the Las Vegas Review-Journal did a deep dive into the LVMPD OISs back in 2011. It is a worthwhile read, https://www.amazon.com/Deadly-Force-Vegas-Police-Shoot-ebook/dp/B006EV0WR0/

... and while events can & should be reviews, that wasn't bad work at all.

[LockedBreech]

Nice work all around by LVMPD. Not sure if G41 with MOS is the one who landed shots or the other Glock officer using stock sights but it looked like they were both putting rounds on target very quickly and well in a super dangerous situation. I've seen lots of LVMPD OIS footage in the last few years and it seems like they're doing something right.

[AMC]

I've seen lots of LVMPD OIS footage in the last few years and it seems like they're doing something right.[/QUOTE]

I agree. Spent time at SHOT talking to some of their range folks, and have had a couple of phone conversations since then. They are fortunate to have a very nice training facility, and a robust in service training program. Lots of elective training, which is apparently very popular with their cops. Definitely a "gun culture" in the positive sense, in that they take the responsibilities of firearms training very seriously.

Watching their OIS videos, I've noticed that they tend to be (relatively) low round count, high hit ratio affairs, and the officers display excellent situational awareness.

[Olim9]

I’m glad I’m not the only one who notices it. Every time I see an OIS video from LVMPD, they’re doing really good work. As for the video, is this the first video footage of an OIS with a red dot? I remember one from a while back with an officer drawing down on a suspect using a P320 Romeo but wasn’t the one who fired the shot.

[TC215]

I’m glad I’m not the only one who notices it. Every time I see an OIS video from LVMPD, they’re doing really good work. As for the video, is this the first video footage of an OIS with a red dot? I remember one from a while back with an officer drawing down on a suspect using a P320 Romeo but wasn’t the one who fired the shot.

Post 1933.

[vcdgrips]

Second hand info based on my interaction with KCMOPD and IPD training cadre. The LVMPD training cadre wants to be there. Unlike many firearms units, it is not a dumping ground but rather a sought after and competitive assignment.

[parishioner]

NOPD OIS


https://youtu.be/yBOQyaMJSnI

Article: https://www.nola.com/news/crime_police/article_29aeaa96-8b1f-11ea-ba38-3f4544a85761.html

[jnc36rcpd]

Well, I'm pretty sure the average person watching mainstream media won't see or hear footage of a wounded officer screaming in agony very often. I wonder how many news channels actually played the video.

[HCountyGuy]

NOPD OIS


https://youtu.be/yBOQyaMJSnI

Article: https://www.nola.com/news/crime_police/article_29aeaa96-8b1f-11ea-ba38-3f4544a85761.html


Article mentions they were dispatched to deal with suspected car burglars. Wonder if the gun the criminal used was stolen that night.

[parishioner]

Article mentions they were dispatched to deal with suspected car burglars. Wonder if the gun the criminal used was stolen that night.

Possibly. We've had a real problem with burglaries lately in our locale.

This was just a few days ago:

https://www.nola.com/news/crime_police/article_eb4258a4-88c9-11ea-b304-f30ff9053975.html

One of the gun stores they hit is only 5 minutes from my house. Approx 50 guns have been stolen in the last couple of months so you know a lot of those have made it into the wrong hands.

[TC215]

Good on that officer for staying in the fight after being hit and going down.

[TC215]

Seattle PD SWAT hostage rescue shot:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yN-3GgxOCP4&feature=emb_logo

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/seattle-police-release-911-call-body-camera-video-showing-suspect-shot-as-he-held-baby/

[AMC]

Seattle PD SWAT hostage rescue shot:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yN-3GgxOCP4&feature=emb_logo

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/seattle-police-release-911-call-body-camera-video-showing-suspect-shot-as-he-held-baby/

Saw this the other day. Very good work. Hard to tell on video, but that shot sounds veeeery quiet. They use .300 BLK in Seattle?

[SiriusBlunder]

Saw this the other day. Very good work. Hard to tell on video, but that shot sounds veeeery quiet. They use .300 BLK in Seattle?

Would prefer a better source, but according to the local news it was a .223 (https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/king-county-sheriffs-office-will-investigate-shooting-by-seattle-police-of-man-sought-for-taking-child-at-gunpoint-in-columbia-city/).

Does this look like an 80% lower (https://spdblotter.seattle.gov/2020/05/01/update-in-columbia-city-officer-involved-shooting-investigation/) to anyone? I can't make out the markings, but it looks like one (Polymer 80?) to me.

[TheRoland]

Would prefer a better source, but according to the local news it was a .223 (https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/king-county-sheriffs-office-will-investigate-shooting-by-seattle-police-of-man-sought-for-taking-child-at-gunpoint-in-columbia-city/).

Does this look like an 80% lower (https://spdblotter.seattle.gov/2020/05/01/update-in-columbia-city-officer-involved-shooting-investigation/) to anyone? I can't make out the markings, but it looks like one (Polymer 80?) to me.

It is a Polymer 80 P940V2 frame.

[Mark D]

https://www.facebook.com/NapaCountySO/videos/309877526665022/


https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/Napa-County-Sheriff-s-Office-releases-video-of-15249423.php


Warning, this video contains graphic content
This is video of an Officer Involved Shooting that occurred on April 24th, 2020 in Napa. The robbery suspect, Brandan Reid Nylander, entered Walmart and used a hammer to shatter a glass display case containing ammunition. The suspect grabbed a box of shotgun shells and threw the hammer, hitting a Walmart employee. Napa Dispatch issued a description of the suspect and his car.

About 20 minutes later Deputy Gregg Lee spotted Nylander driving on SR-29. Deputy Lee attempted to stop the suspect, but Nylander led deputies on a pursuit that lasted almost 3 minutes. At the end of the pursuit the suspect got out of his car and pointed a loaded shotgun at two deputies.

Nylander’s actions prompted Deputy Gregg Lee to fire two shots, however both shots missed the suspect. Nylander continued to hold the loaded gun and began walking to the front his car with his hands raised, but still holding the loaded shotgun.
Deputy Lee fired two more shots. He was pronounced dead at the scene. We have gathered evidence that suggests the suspect was suicidal.

[Doc_Glock]

Saw this the other day. Very good work. Hard to tell on video, but that shot sounds veeeery quiet. They use .300 BLK in Seattle?

I wondered the same. The brass noise hitting ground is almost louder than the shot.

[Keith E.]

https://www.facebook.com/NapaCountySO/videos/309877526665022/


https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/Napa-County-Sheriff-s-Office-releases-video-of-15249423.php

Suicidal was my first thought when I read about his activities at Wal-Mart.

Keith

[Doc_Glock]

Dude live streams his chase and shooting. Unfortunately from POV of phone which is dropped during foot pursuit.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/05/07/indianapolis-police-chase-shooting-facebook-live/5181433002/

https://www.tmz.com/2020/05/06/video-shows-police-shooting-man-during-live-stream-indianapolis/

[BehindBlueI's]

Dude live streams his chase and shooting. Unfortunately from POV of phone which is dropped during foot pursuit.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/05/07/indianapolis-police-chase-shooting-facebook-live/5181433002/

https://www.tmz.com/2020/05/06/video-shows-police-shooting-man-during-live-stream-indianapolis/

A bit of follow-up on that: https://fox59.com/news/impd-chief-speaks-about-deadly-police-shooting-livestreamed-online/

[TC215]

A bit of follow-up on that: https://fox59.com/news/impd-chief-speaks-about-deadly-police-shooting-livestreamed-online/


“Looks like it’s going to be a closed casket homie,” said that unidentified officer.

Whoops.

[TC215]

Pomona CA:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygMTJFfNjTM&feature=emb_logo

[TC215]

Montgomery County, Maryland:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=rTviSRtm6Lg&feature=emb_logo


https://www.foxnews.com/us/maryland-police-release-footage-of-fatal-police-shooting

[blues]

Suicide by cop...

...got what he was after, I guess. Sad that it came to that.

[TC215]

Greeley, CO:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM2DbIbo7Ig


https://www.foxnews.com/us/colorado-police-officer-cleared-shooting-apartment-complex-gang-ties

[vcdgrips]

Re the Greely CO above:


While I have reviewed hundreds of body/dash cams, I am not sure I have even seen one where the officer seemed to cycle thru multiple flashlight settings at a time when bright or perhaps bright strobe seemed to be called for.

For you LEOS our there, is a secondary training point of this video -have a hand held light that has a default to bright and or a push thru to bright?

Be safe and well.

[Erick Gelhaus]

Re the Greely CO above:
While I have reviewed hundreds of body/dash cams, I am not sure I have even seen one where the officer seemed to cycle thru multiple flashlight settings at a time when bright or perhaps bright strobe seemed to be called for.

For you LEOS our there, is a secondary training point of this video -have a hand held light that has a default to bright and or a push thru to bright?

Be safe and well.

I'll admit to some difficulty, at times, discerning when the main source of light was coming from the handheld light or the Streamlight WML. I saw the WML go on & off as well as begin to strobe. I tried to ID the handheld's make/model but couldn't so I don't if any strobing came from it. vcdgrips, I'm wondering how much of what you commented on was the officer trying to work two separate lighting tools while keeping them oriented on two adjacent threats.

From those familiar with Petty/Centrifuge Training's lecture and training points about vehicles being like rooms and parking lots being like buildings, this event offers an interesting view on the practical application of those concepts.

[jnc36rcpd]

Re the Greely CO above:


While I have reviewed hundreds of body/dash cams, I am not sure I have even seen one where the officer seemed to cycle thru multiple flashlight settings at a time when bright or perhaps bright strobe seemed to be called for.

For you LEOS our there, is a secondary training point of this video -have a hand held light that has a default to bright and or a push thru to bright?

Be safe and well.

Software versus hardware is always a debate, but I tend to agree that a police flashlight needs to default to the intended setting when turned on. In most cases, this is the brightest setting, That may vary with some of the extremely high lumen flashlights available, but an officer shouldn't need to toggle through settings at the moment of truth.

[jandbj]

Re the Greely CO above:


While I have reviewed hundreds of body/dash cams, I am not sure I have even seen one where the officer seemed to cycle thru multiple flashlight settings at a time when bright or perhaps bright strobe seemed to be called for.

For you LEOS our there, is a secondary training point of this video -have a hand held light that has a default to bright and or a push thru to bright?

Be safe and well.

Having to manipulate his mic for the radio looked like it was a factor as well. Only have 2 hands.

[VT1032]

https://youtu.be/EOQI9z_gi5g

This one got shitty pretty quick. Definitely impressed with the OSP trooper keeping it together, especially when you see what his car looked like afterwards.

[Hambo]

https://youtu.be/EOQI9z_gi5g

This one got shitty pretty quick. Definitely impressed with the OSP trooper keeping it together, especially when you see what his car looked like afterwards.

When they talk about people with ice water in their veins, they mean this guy.

[HCM]

Another Las Vegas Metro shooting with an RDS equipped Glock 45. I believe this is their 3rd or 4th RDS Shooting this year.

Drunk with BB gun that looks like an SMG pointed it at a neighbor and LVMPD airship before being shot when he pointed it at responding officers.


https://youtu.be/v5ribE42Q70

[TC215]

Deltona, FL:


https://www.facebook.com/VolusiaSheriff/videos/1500158856836120/

https://www.policeone.com/officer-shootings/articles/video-shows-ois-of-man-shooting-at-deputies-with-tactical-shotgun-N7PSHmD1kbHAocp3/