"The Modern Technique" and "Competition Driven Shooting"

[ToddG]

The issue of teaching all techniques to all shooters has come up repeatedly in the thread, and I'd like to address it.

I think it is very important for an instructor to be at least passingly familiar with various alternative techniques. First, this allows an intelligent assessment and comparison against the status quo. Second, it allows the instructor to understand and integrate or fix, as appropriate, when seeing a student who has been brought up using one of these alternative systems. Third, it gives the instructor a tool in the box in the event that the status quo system won't work for a given student; e.g., a bad shoulder may necessitate a Weaver-type upper body position, people with back or knee problems may not be able to crouch, etc.

However, I cannot agree with the idea that new shooters should be shown all the possible ways to do something and then left to their own devices (and uninformed opinions) about which is "best." The whole reason someone gets instruction is to be taught, not to be left adrift to figure it all out on his own. I had some students from a huge agency a while back that teaches multiple grips to new recruits, included cup & saucer and even the old revolver grip (thumbs crossed behind the backstrap) for semiauto shooting. Then the officers-to-be just pick the one they like best. Think about that. If cup & saucer worked best for you doing your slow basic marksmanship train-up, that's the technique you'll adopt. Does anyone seriously think that makes sense?

I teach people the way I think is best. If individuals need tweaking, then tweaks are made on an individual level. But my goal isn't to show people the eighty seven different ways to reload a pistol, because eighty six of them have been proven inferior on some level. One of those eighty six might be the best option for one guy under one circumstance, and hopefully the instructor and student can realize that and address it appropriately. But it's a huge waste of the other students' time to force them to see, learn, and practice eighty six techniques that will be rejected.

[GJM]

Marty, I think that PF is a lot different. There are a lot of dedicated pistol shooters here trying to advance their pistol craft, with a minimum of ego, a tolerance of differing view points, but almost zero acceptance of statements made without a reasoned argument. I expect that anything I say on PF will be read critically, and often questioned, and as a result, I don't say things that I am not willing to defend.

Consistently thru this thread, you have made various statements, but then been unwilling to logically defend those statements -- often saying that you are too short on time, or offering a general statement as to your ability or experience as being reason enough to accept your positions.

[David Armstrong]

However, I cannot agree with the idea that new shooters should be shown all the possible ways to do something and then left to their own devices (and uninformed opinions) about which is "best."

When I do intro level classes I try to offer about three alternatives, usually the modified ISO, Weaver, and the Israeli horse stance crouch. Everybody gets the basics, gets to try each (the SIRT gun has really come in handy for that) and then I let them pick what they want to use for the class. I'll tell them what I use and why, but point out that as my physical condition has changed over the years my choices have also changed. And I will certainly offer suggestions based on how they respond and react to various drills. Leave them to their own? Not too likely, too much chance for trouble IMO.

[beltjones]

When I do intro level classes I try to offer about three alternatives, usually the modified ISO, Weaver, and the Israeli horse stance crouch. Everybody gets the basics, gets to try each (the SIRT gun has really come in handy for that) and then I let them pick what they want to use for the class. I'll tell them what I use and why, but point out that as my physical condition has changed over the years my choices have also changed. And I will certainly offer suggestions based on how they respond and react to various drills. Leave them to their own? Not too likely, too much chance for trouble IMO.

When you see MMA fighters throw crappy Thai leg kicks in their first fights, it's often because someone showed them the "easy" way first, and that is what they fall back on when their adrenalin goes crazy. If someone had programmed them with the correct technique from the beginning it's a lot less likely they would use incorrect technique when it counts.

[EmanP]

I don't know how many of y'all know Marty or have shot with him, but I can claim a bit of both over the years. Not a lot, but having him in my classes at ASLET and attending his classes gives me a fairly good baseline, IMO. I'll go hunting BGs down a dark alley with him as my partner anytime. I would hope that puts to bed any personal integrity/quality questions.

I know Marty as well and I totally agree. I would go into some bad places with him at my back and at my side. Just cause I don't agree with some things doesn't mean anything more. I don't even agree with my friends fairly often about a lot of stuff.

[Jay Cunningham]

Unless this thread gets back on track and off of one personality, it's going to get locked. Yes, I'm addressing "both sides" on this.

OP, maybe you might want to reappear and chime in, letting us all know what you've learned so far from this thread that you started.

[jthhapkido]

Technically off topic, but not really---one of the things brought forth is the type of argument presented in this discussion thus far, and it seems that we have two types going on. One type is a logical argument (fact-based, backed by data) and the other is personal argument (based on preferences and likes/dislikes).

This community in general has mostly fairly carefully adhered to actual discussion rules, as opposed to argumentative or persuasive rules, which I think is a strength.

On the relatively few occasions when we haven't adhered to that, it has normally been fairly obvious, in that it "feels" very different than our normal discussion.

Just as a refresher regarding discussions (vs arguments, or other situations in which people think it is important that they "win") one of the major points of solid, informative discussion is that finding a correctly supported answer is the important thing. In other words, the important result is what is right, as opposed to who is right.

So here you go. If someone has had a problem with this discussion, they might look at what part of this they haven't done, and it might help.

[BaiHu]

But it's a huge waste of the other students' time to force them to see, learn, and practice eighty six techniques that will be rejected.

This!! I have been to classes in college and elsewhere in my life where I left saying, "wow, I just got shown all the stuff that can and cannot work, yet never learned a damned thing useful, b/c we spent equal time on effective and ineffective techniques/thoughts/ideas."

I just attended a low light/no light class where 2/5ths of the techniques didn't even work for most modern flashlights, so you had people, in a level 1 class of this sort, not being able to effectively practice some of these techniques. I'd rather have 2 techniques that I could rely on and practice fully for the 4 hours and 250 rounds rather than 5-7 techniques that I spread 250 rounds on where 3 of them aren't even really executable.

To jthhapkido:
Sweet flow graph, I love that stuff!

[jthhapkido]

To jthhapkido:
Sweet flow graph, I love that stuff!

I note for the record that I didn't make that flowchart, I'm just using it. For the life of me, I can't find who originally created it, otherwise I would give credit.

I do use it in a lot of the classes I teach. (I teach at a local high school, among other things.)

[David Armstrong]

When you see MMA fighters throw crappy Thai leg kicks in their first fights, it's often because someone showed them the "easy" way first, and that is what they fall back on when their adrenalin goes crazy. If someone had programmed them with the correct technique from the beginning it's a lot less likely they would use incorrect technique when it counts.

That assumes that we are talking about an incorrect technique. Different does not mean inferior or incorrect, and personally I found MT far more difficult than ISO.