"The Modern Technique" and "Competition Driven Shooting"

[EmanP]

By the way, at this last weekends USPSA match at Paul Bunyan neither my buddy TJ or I did anything different shooting 1911's than what we do with other platforms. We've been shooting 9mm's for I don't know how long (me Sig 226, him HK P30) and G17's for the last few months. At 9:30 the night before we decided to shot 1911's having only shot them once in the last year at a Single Stack match. I needed to get used to a 1911 again before a 1911 class Hilton Yam is coming into town to do next week. If anyone's going we can continue this discussion and test theory's there. Different caliber, different platform, different everything really but we did not shot them any differently than we would have shot any other pistol. It was rough trying to get used to something on the clock but not a big deal, just slow especially the reloads but the same techniques worked. Seems competition driven shooting served us pretty darn well and TJ hadn't picked up a gun in the last 2 months. Results are there and video's up. For me MT is an outdated term describing outdated ideas and was only modern when introduced. Has nothing to do with todays concepts.

And it's not what a former student said but what you had said.

[Ptrlcop]

I have a hard time accepting that when instructing new shooters the instructor's job is to show them every possible way of doing something and then letting the student figure out what "works for them". The fact is that the human body did not evolve for the purpose of shooting guns, so what "feels good" may not work best (ex. jamming as much finger as you can reach into the trigger guard).

The premise of instruction is that the instructor has spent a great deal of time, energy, thought and resources to figure out what works and what works better at achieving the goal. The student then listens to the instructor because they dont have the time or resources to spend figuring all that out for themselves.

Marty, we all clearly understand that you believe Weaver is good. However, every time hard questions get asked for you to explain why you cop out with "my time is up". The purpose of a forum is to deeply explore the topic not yell, "x,y,z works for me!" with no articulated reason. I dont want to pile on you but your posts in this thread screams of someone who is clinging to dogma without understanding of why or willingness to explore other options (contrary to the purpose of a forum, which is to learn). I am not saying that this is true about you, but until you address the questions posed understand that it is how you will be perceived.

As I reread some of your posts it almost seems(but not clearly articulated) that you are arguing that as long as you have a certain level of firearms profficiancy that other skills are more important to sucess in the tactical environment and that training time is more efficiantly used honing other skills (ie. working on room clearing vs shaving .1 of a sec off your draw). Ok, maybe, I can accept that a 30 year weaver shooter changing to Iso may not be the most efficiant use of their time if their goal is overall survivability not pure shooting skill.

[beltjones]

By the way, at this last weekends USPSA match at Paul Bunyan neither my buddy TJ or I did anything different shooting 1911's than what we do with other platforms. We've been shooting 9mm's for I don't know how long (me Sig 226, him HK P30) and G17's for the last few months. At 9:30 the night before we decided to shot 1911's having only shot them once in the last year at a Single Stack match. I needed to get used to a 1911 again before a 1911 class Hilton Yam is coming into town to do next week. If anyone's going we can continue this discussion and test theory's there. Different caliber, different platform, different everything really but we did not shot them any differently than we would have shot any other pistol. It was rough trying to get used to something on the clock but not a big deal, just slow especially the reloads but the same techniques worked. Seems competition driven shooting served us pretty darn well and TJ hadn't picked up a gun in the last 2 months. Results are there and video's up. For me MT is an outdated term describing outdated ideas and was only modern when introduced. Has nothing to do with todays concepts.

And it's not what a former student said but what you had said.

I think this closes the loop on this issue.

Student takes classes from instructor, instructor rails against competition techniques.

Student begins to compete anyway, instructor ignores advances in pistol technique.

Years later, student and instructor meet at a match, each shooting the same gun. This is the instructor's regular platform, and the student only decided to use it the night before on a whim.

Student outshoots instructor by a wide margin. Even if you take the "gamesmanship" out (ie, the time), the student still shot much better points than the instructor. In other words, his accuracy was much better.

This is just one data point, but I think it's relevant considering the instructor who doesn't believe that newer, faster, more accurate is better is the one who was outshot by someone who is improving his technique with the latest methods (and not necessarily those he learned from the instructor).

[David Armstrong]

True. That's pretty obvious.

Given the composition of this forum, I thought it was assumed that we're talking about teaching beyond "Handgun 101".

I thought we were talking about teaching people to shoot, which includes "Handgun 101" and beyond. Perhaps that is the disconnect?? Certainly if one is discussing training as it relates to a small fraction of the upper echelon of shooters that is a different issue, but if one only uses the best of the best as the test platform then how applicable is the training in a general sense?

[joshs]

Assuming average or larger hands, the "modern isos" grip will roast the person's left hand thumb, and/or get the weak hand fingers too close to the muzzle.

Weak hand thumb position is irrelevant to the "mod iso" grip. "Thumbs forward" is often the way the grip is taught, but the important aspect of the grip is that the weak hand wrist is locked out or at least as extended as possible.

[David Armstrong]

Instead of getting into a pissing contest regarding what a former student said on an internet thread, ....

I don't know how many of y'all know Marty or have shot with him, but I can claim a bit of both over the years. Not a lot, but having him in my classes at ASLET and attending his classes gives me a fairly good baseline, IMO. I'll go hunting BGs down a dark alley with him as my partner anytime. I would hope that puts to bed any personal integrity/quality questions.

[Marty Hayes]

Okay, guys, you win. I thought this forum might be different, with different viewpoints tolerated amongst profesionals. Afterall, I have a lot of respect for TLG and what he has done in the industry, not withstanding my disagreements with him on some techinques. But, this thread has proven me wrong. To those who have written me privately, thanks for the encouragement.

[ToddG]

I thought this forum might be different, with different viewpoints tolerated amongst profesionals.

I think that is extremely unfair under the circumstances, Marty. I don't see intolerance in this thread. I do see a lot of folks asking questions which you've said you don't have time to answer. No one is throwing hatchets, people are trying to have an honest and open discussion. I'd humbly suggest that you consider taking half an hour when you have the time and writing a magnum opus response that actually addresses many of those questions in the level of detail you feel is deserving to get your point of view across more clearly.

[Frank D.]

Marty,

This forum is pretty different, both in tone and, so far, in the level of expertise of a lot of regular posters. I know you've been railed on a bit in this thread, but anyone who posts a viewpoint contrary to what is accepted by a community, on the internet or in real-life, has got to expect some negative feedback.

Despite disagreements on this topic, I'm sure there is a lot you can learn here, and plenty you can teach and contribute.

[beltjones]

Okay, guys, you win. I thought this forum might be different, with different viewpoints tolerated amongst profesionals. Afterall, I have a lot of respect for TLG and what he has done in the industry, not withstanding my disagreements with him on some techinques. But, this thread has proven me wrong. To those who have written me privately, thanks for the encouragement.

I have a lot of respect for those who have undertaken to making a career out of teaching people to shoot. And frankly, I hate the circular firing squad that people in the shooting community are so eager to jump into when it comes to instructors and instruction.

However, the whole point is that we aren't discussing religion, although many treat it as a religious issue. We're discussing something provable and demonstrable with evidence. I really welcome your viewpoint, but the evidence suggests it may be unfounded. That's all.