30th anniversary, FBI/Miami fight...........

[LSP552]

The Bureacracy is bad, that is certain, but, the State sets a minimum standard. Individual Firearms Trainers at different agencies can train beyond the standard as long as the minimum is met. I also realize there are time and budgetary restraints but not all effort is limited by those. I have seen agencies with shoe string budgets do things like install overhead lights for night firing and add enhanced standards. Even here in Louisiana we can all agree the state is broke but LSP is still shooting every quarter. Conceding to the minimum and blaming "them" for your lack of creativity, drive, and enthusiasm is piss poor.

No doubt that some trainers don't work to the max allowed by their bosses. I'm not making excuses for them, just commenting that in many cases agency heads don't want to go beyond the minimums.

[HCM]

The Bureacracy is bad, that is certain, but, the State sets a minimum standard. Individual Firearms Trainers at different agencies can train beyond the standard as long as the minimum is met. I also realize there are time and budgetary restraints but not all effort is limited by those. I have seen agencies with shoe string budgets do things like install overhead lights for night firing and add enhanced standards. Even here in Louisiana we can all agree the state is broke but LSP is still shooting every quarter. Conceding to the minimum and blaming "them" for your lack of creativity, drive, and enthusiasm is piss poor.

As LSP552 said the guys at the range can only do so much, they need support from their administration in the form of time / man hours to actually get folks out to the range and consequences for failing to meet standards or fully participate in training. You can do a lot on a shoestring budget if there is a will to train.

For example, It's funny how the number of remedial shooters drops when having to remediate means losing your ability to work overtime ....

[BigDaddy]

Don't be too amazed. The FBI learned a hard lesson that day, a lesson that most savvy street cops had been knowing all along.

For instance; the guy in that video, SSA Gordon MacNeil, was the FBI agent-in-charge of this case and was at the scene, and one of the wounded. Not to speak ill of the dead, but instead of calling the local cops (who were primed and ready for these two assholes) once said assholes were spotted, MacNeil insisted that the FBI guys do an Efrem Zimbalist Jr. TV take-down, for the glory of the Bureau, etc. We know how that turned out. And to his dying day, MacNeil insisted that the on-scene agents were not REALLY out-gunned.

Now… before you dismiss me as just another fed-hater (which is not entirely incorrect), consider this; I was a presenter at the second Wound Ballistics Seminar at Quantico in 1994. This seminar was a re-boot of the original 1987 conference, which of course was a direct result of the Miami Massacre. So I have more than a little inside information to this incident.

Bottom line; four Metro-Dade street cops with shotguns, assuming that Platt and Mattix adhered to the felony stop playbook, could have ended this before it began.

Of course, there is a ton of ancillary information about this incident, and the aftermath, that is never discussed publicly. There are a few other members here, also with inside information, who know exactly what I am talking about. I'll refrain from identifying them, as they may want to remain anonymous due to current employment/contacts/whatever. Me, I don't care… although there are some things I won't discuss for various reasons.

What I'm saying here is that the Miami Massacre was an epic failure, on several levels. Some folks like to use it as an example of "heroism". Ah… not exactly.

No shot at you, Chuck, you know that.

.

I agree with everything in your post except that I do consider the FBI agents that were there on that day heroes. AFAIC, anyone that straps a gun on and goes looking for bad guys is a hero. Their tactics and weapons sucked but they are heroes .

[coldcase1984]

I was a cop reporter/gun guy the day this happened and remember it well. Didn't become a cop until '92.

I've not been here much of late due to work and an injured spouse, but a few random thunks:

1. G20s were not produced until five years after the Miami Shootout. At the FBI Field office over our county, they still have shotguns, a 1928 Thompson and an MP5/10 in the safe but must still get approval from Nashville to remove them.

2. Backstabbers and windowlickers rise to the top of human organizations like oxygen-rich turds in a champagne fountain. I suspect it's been that way since at least the Bronze Age.

3. We all seem to have the same command staff issues. Been telling two administrations we should issue rifle plates/carriers to all sworn personnel for eight years. It will take a tragedy.

4. Every OIS is Monday Morning Quarterbacked by those who weren't there: from administrators, to know-nothing media, to the man on the street. Human nature. Sometimes, sadly, the can't-dos who investigate OISs don't understand dynamics of violence, gunhandling or deadly threats and that can nearly - or end a career. I'm sure several here have been in that position.

Less than seven years left now! Can't hardly wait, but enjoyed a 40-minute pursuit yesterday that ended in a non-injury felony stop and arrest (except for the spiked tires on his Equinox). Happy as a 33-year-old rookie I was!

[Lon]

2. Backstabbers and windowlickers rise to the top of human organizations like oxygen-rich turds in a champagne fountain. I suspect it's been that way since at least the Bronze Age.

You just made me snort soda up my nose.

[AMC]

Sometimes even tragedy doesn't motivate change. We had two officers murdered by assault rifle wielding bad guys, then watched the North Hollywood shootout.....and were told that, "More guns isn't the answer to violence." We did get plate carriers before rifles....so that we could close the distance with rifle wielding suspects and use "new tactics" to overcome them. These types of answers are common with Citizen Police Commissions having total control. Commissioners whose primary qualification for being nominated is a history of anti-police activism....I kid you not. We have to remember that what we consider an avoidable tragedy is considered by some to be acceptable. Add in admin types whose primary focus is career advancement and you have not only a toxic environment for truth and excellence, you have the most common description of any human institution. Especially in government.

[Trooper224]

like oxygen-rich turds in a champagne fountain.

I'm adding that to my verbal retort lexicon.

[coldcase1984]

With my compliments, brother.

[stingray]

Don't be too amazed. The FBI learned a hard lesson that day, a lesson that most savvy street cops had been knowing all along.

For instance; the guy in that video, SSA Gordon MacNeil, was the FBI agent-in-charge of this case and was at the scene, and one of the wounded. Not to speak ill of the dead, but instead of calling the local cops (who were primed and ready for these two assholes) once said assholes were spotted, MacNeil insisted that the FBI guys do an Efrem Zimbalist Jr. TV take-down, for the glory of the Bureau, etc. We know how that turned out. And to his dying day, MacNeil insisted that the on-scene agents were not REALLY out-gunned.

Now… before you dismiss me as just another fed-hater (which is not entirely incorrect), consider this; I was a presenter at the second Wound Ballistics Seminar at Quantico in 1994. This seminar was a re-boot of the original 1987 conference, which of course was a direct result of the Miami Massacre. So I have more than a little inside information to this incident.

Bottom line; four Metro-Dade street cops with shotguns, assuming that Platt and Mattix adhered to the felony stop playbook, could have ended this before it began.

Of course, there is a ton of ancillary information about this incident, and the aftermath, that is never discussed publicly. There are a few other members here, also with inside information, who know exactly what I am talking about. I'll refrain from identifying them, as they may want to remain anonymous due to current employment/contacts/whatever. Me, I don't care… although there are some things I won't discuss for various reasons.

What I'm saying here is that the Miami Massacre was an epic failure, on several levels. Some folks like to use it as an example of "heroism". Ah… not exactly.

No shot at you, Chuck, you know that.

.

I don't think the FBI was necessarily out-gunned. They had available to them that day, the necessary equipment to win this situation. What they did NOT have was training and more importantly the experience necessary to win. yes the did win, but at a horrific cost.

As you correctly stated 4 Metro-Dade guys would have ended this quick, fast and in a hurry. Not a slam of the FBI, just concurring with them having a different perspective in their mission statement....

[El Cid]

As you correctly stated 4 Metro-Dade guys would have ended this quick, fast and in a hurry. Not a slam of the FBI, just concurring with them having a different perspective in their mission statement....

Complete nonsense.