Pistol Caliber Carbine

[Josh Runkle]

Ah, verbage technicality.

Well, I mean, open gun is separate from limited, etc.

It is illegal to fire a pistol with an arm brace from the shoulder, so, I can't see USPSA allowing that.

USPSA defines classes, so I can't imagine them letting a pistol be shot during a carbine match.

What's the issue here?

[jwperry]

Well, I mean, open gun is separate from limited, etc.

It is illegal to fire a pistol with an arm brace from the shoulder, so, I can't see USPSA allowing that.

USPSA defines classes, so I can't imagine them letting a pistol be shot during a carbine match.

What's the issue here?

No issue, the wording was something I overlooked.
I will say though, in my local multigun & 3 gun matches we have had more than a few guys shouldering AR/AK pistol variants. No one bats an eye. In my head, that's where the confusion came from as that was my point of reference.

Edwin posted the rule specifically banning those type of pistol/carbine/other weapon, so my question is moot because USPSA already thought of it.

[Josh Runkle]

No issue, the wording was something I overlooked.
I will say though, in my local multigun & 3 gun matches we have had more than a few guys shouldering AR/AK pistol variants. No one bats an eye. In my head, that's where the confusion came from as that was my point of reference.

Edwin posted the rule specifically banning those type of pistol/carbine/other weapon, so my question is moot because USPSA already thought of it.

My understanding is that the BATFE originally found no fault in shouldering pistol braces, but then reverse position and declared them to be SBR'd when fired from the shoulder. Tantamount to making your gun run full auto without a tax stamp. At this point, it's declared to be VERY illegal to do so, but, one could always be the first test case in court, and then we'd have an actual answer.

If you see that activity, you should stop it.

https://www.atf.gov/file/11816/download

[Josh Runkle]

It's my understand that the BATFE said that putting a pistol brace on a pistol with the intent of shouldering it was building an SBR and that building an SBR without filing a Form 1 was illegal.

I'm about as far from a lawyer as possible (in fact, I'm almost human) so I urge people to give no weight to my words on legal (or really any other) matters.

"The pistol stabilizing brace was neither “designed” nor approved to be used as a shoulder stock, and therefore use as a shoulder stock constitutes a “redesign” of the device because a possessor has changed the very function of the item. Any individual letters stating otherwise are contrary to the plain language of the NFA, misapply Federal law, and are hereby revoked.
Any person who intends to use a handgun stabilizing brace as a shoulder stock on a pistol (having a rifled barrel under 16 inches in length or a smooth bore firearm with a barrel under 18 inches in length) must first file an ATF Form 1 and pay the applicable tax because the resulting firearm will be subject to all provisions of the NFA."

-from my ATF link

[Luke]

(emphasis added)

Isn't that what I said?

No, you said intent.



ETA:

[Josh Runkle]

(emphasis added)

Isn't that what I said?

You were referencing building with the intent: i.e., construction.

They are referencing "intends to use": i.e., usage.

[Drang]

Arguing about what the ATF really meant... Where's that popcorn .gif?

[Talionis]

We had our annual back-to-back High-capacity/Low-capacity match this weekend. Day 1 recognized only the high-capacity divisions (Open, Limited, PCC) and day 2 recognized only the low-capacity divisions (Production, SS, Limited 10, Revo). Both days shot exactly the same stages. I shot PCC in the hi-cap match, and Prod in the lo-cap match. I ended up with division wins in both, and 2nd overall in hi-cap, 1st overall in lo-cap. While it wasn't technically a major match, most of us that shoot it treat it as such, with trophies and annual bragging rights on the line.

This match is one of my favorites because it gives me the chance to shoot the same stages multiple times in different divisions and compare the results. In this case, I beat my production scores by 15% when shooting PCC. My total time in PCC was 160, and my time in Production was 175. I also shot better points in PCC, with 1016 for PCC vs. 989 for Prod. I did beat PCC with production on two stages, both of which involved fairly tight movement and shooting through/around ports and walls at awkward angles. I'll try to get some video comparing PCC with pistol on the same stages up soon.

[PPGMD]

"The pistol stabilizing brace was neither “designed” nor approved to be used as a shoulder stock, and therefore use as a shoulder stock constitutes a “redesign” of the device because a possessor has changed the very function of the item. Any individual letters stating otherwise are contrary to the plain language of the NFA, misapply Federal law, and are hereby revoked.

Any person who intends to use a handgun stabilizing brace as a shoulder stock on a pistol (having a rifled barrel under 16 inches in length or a smooth bore firearm with a barrel under 18 inches in length) must first file an ATF Form 1 and pay the applicable tax because the resulting firearm will be subject to all provisions of the NFA."

-from my ATF link

The "remaking" logic that the ATF uses has already been shot down once. I forget which court, but it was over putting a VFG on a Glock

[GJM]

We had our annual back-to-back High-capacity/Low-capacity match this weekend. Day 1 recognized only the high-capacity divisions (Open, Limited, PCC) and day 2 recognized only the low-capacity divisions (Production, SS, Limited 10, Revo). Both days shot exactly the same stages. I shot PCC in the hi-cap match, and Prod in the lo-cap match. I ended up with division wins in both, and 2nd overall in hi-cap, 1st overall in lo-cap. While it wasn't technically a major match, most of us that shoot it treat it as such, with trophies and annual bragging rights on the line.

This match is one of my favorites because it gives me the chance to shoot the same stages multiple times in different divisions and compare the results. In this case, I beat my production scores by 15% when shooting PCC. My total time in PCC was 160, and my time in Production was 175. I also shot better points in PCC, with 1016 for PCC vs. 989 for Prod. I did beat PCC with production on two stages, both of which involved fairly tight movement and shooting through/around ports and walls at awkward angles. I'll try to get some video comparing PCC with pistol on the same stages up soon.

You didn't mention Carry Optics?