Good videos on teaching the draw stroke/press out

[MickAK]

. Why would I artificially retard my draw stroke by adopting an inefficient movement pattern to account for a fraction of scenarios where that draw stroke might not work, especially if it's a non-issue because my subconscious will make the adjustments I need anyway?

Because the scenarios in which I draw my gun without a certain understanding of the situation I'm facing vastly outnumber the scenarios in which I have a complete and certain understanding of the situation and just need to put a bullet in someone as fast as humanly possible.

I trust my subconscious to switch to an index draw if that situation arises more than I trust my subconscious to see that thing I didn't see until it was too late.

[Gio]

The highlighted part is what I want to focus on.

Unless you train or have been trained to modify as needed you're not gonna do shit.

It sounds like you train a lot of different stuff and have asserted you straddle the tactical and competition community more than anyone on the country. Cool. It sounds like recency and repetition are working for you.

I teach entangled shooting more frequently than anyone on the planet. 40+ weeks a year. To every possible client from soccer moms to the special operations community.

I've yet to see anyone.....soccer mom, commando, blue/green badger, fed....whatever....compress their pistol appropriately based on proximity of threat when exiting a ground fight or clinch after a 50 second fight unless they have been trained to do so. NO ONE modifies as needed for that situation.

That's my observation at least based on 22 years of roadshow, 40+ weeks a year for the past 13, and having observed and conducted at last count a bit over 50,000 simulated near full contact entangled gunfights with simunitons.

But you may have a different perspective based on lived experience.

I'm not disagreeing that serious students/officers need to work the types of training and scenarios that you run in ECQC, and make sure they are handling the weapon in a manner appropriate for the situation, but I am disagreeing that shooters should train and adopt a strictly L shaped draw or a retention draw for every time they draw and present the gun. The original poster asked, "What is everyone's favorite video for teaching the draw/press out?" In my experience, learning and focusing on an index draw, which allows you to build efficient mechanics from the holster to the target, is the best thing to train until you have a subconscious ability to draw and present the gun.

Then after that, put yourself in all the situations where that index draw won't work and see how your brain responds and get someone to correct you if you're doing it wrong, such as taking your class, or self correct if you're drawing in a compressed space (like a vehicle) and banging your gun into the steering wheel. In my experience, if you've developed that index draw to the point you handle the weapon subconsciously, it will be easy to make the adjustments needed as described above, such as exiting a ground fight and compressing the pistol based on proximity to the threat.

[Clusterfrack]

For those who don't know, @Gio is a top-10 USPSA GM and active LE.

It's great that this thread is generating some of the most interesting discussion we've had in a while.

[SouthNarc]

I am disagreeing that shooters should train and adopt a strictly L shaped draw or a retention draw for every time they draw and present the gun.

Aaahh I get what you're saying now.

Yeah I agree with that. Just like I think it's inefficient when drawing from appendix to come back to a thumb-pectoral and then drive the gun to your sights or dot, just for the sake of always incorporating a retention shooting position into your draw. Doing so is observably and measurably slower and inefficient when drawing to a ranged threat.

That's one reason in pedagogy I don't conflate the thumb-pectoral index with the second count of the presentation or call it "shooting from 2" anymore. That worked when everyone carried strong side hip. Not so much now in an appendix carry world.

I think the issue with all of this though is the "moderately trained man" as I believe Kelly McCann called the non-enthusiast armed population. I know in closed enrollment coursework, with personnel and organizations of high pedigree, the majority of them are disinterested and ambivalent when it comes to skill development. I just did a gig last month in NoVa where that organization gives their people UNLIMITED ammo, range access literally 24/7, and paid time-on, to shoot when they're not OCONUS. Most of the time? Empty ranges and pallets of untouched ammo. Related directly to me by the org training manager.

[Gio]

For those who don't know, @Gio is a top-10 USPSA GM and active LE.

It's great that this thread is generating some of the most interesting discussion we've had in a while.

Thanks, I do think discussions like this are awesome! On the LE side (15 years), I am a firearms instructor, former SWAT team leader, and tactical instructor, and have been involved in training local, state, and federal LEO's, DoD special operations teams, and friendly foreign military and LE partners in everything from CQB, ECQC style gun grappling, defensive tactics, vehicle CQB, and other force-on-force scenarios. I've seen a wide range of skill sets and motivation from below average LEO's that barely meet minimum requirements to some of the most elite in the country.

I definitely recognize Craig @SouthNarc as the premier SME on ECQC, and I doubt anyone has put as many people through ECQC type iterations as he has, so I love having this conversation. Of all that training I have been involved in taking or hosting, the ECQC variety is probably the least I've done.

I realize we're getting side tracked from the original question here, but I think taking a step back from it all, I would argue that training weapon handling skills to a subconscious level, similar to how a high level competitive shooter would train, frees your mind to focus on other decision making, whether that's ground fighting, interior structure clearing, CQB, or just generally making the correct legal decision to shoot or not shoot. In my experience, the students who have the highest level of shooting skill typically do much better in most of those training iterations.

the majority of them are disinterested and ambivalent when it comes to skill development.

Apathy is definitely one of the biggest problems facing any organization when it comes to training and skill development. It's also one of the reasons I can't wait to get out and do this stuff in open enrollment classes where people want to come learn...

[SouthNarc]

I would argue that training weapon handling skills to a subconscious level, similar to how a high level competitive shooter would train, frees your mind to focus on other decision making, whether that's ground fighting, interior structure clearing, CQB, or just generally making the correct legal decision to shoot or not shoot. In my experience, the students who have the highest level of shooting skill typically do much better in most of those training iterations.

I 100% concur.

[Guerrero]

That's one reason in pedagogy I don't conflate the thumb-pectoral index with the second count of the presentation or call it "shooting from 2" anymore. That worked when everyone carried strong side hip. Not so much now in an appendix carry world.

Hm. I guess, "T-Rex shoots from high, compressed thumb/pectoral index regardless of appendix or strong-side draw" doesn't work very well on a T-shirt.

[CraigS]

Could one of you define an 'index draw' please?

[JohnO]

Could one of you define an 'index draw' please?

Typically used to describe a draw stroke stroke where the gun takes the shortest most efficient path to the target. Having been repeatedly practiced, the termination of the draw stroke ends with the sights aligned with the target. There is/are no sight or sights in view to drive to the target. The shooter is focused on the target and when sights appear the weapon is indexed on target ready to fire.

[YVK]

Could one of you define an 'index draw' please?

Presentation by feel. Path of the gun, optics vs irons, target focus vs sight focus are not critical in that definition. You look at the spot, present your gun, and gun points at the target with sights aligned. Your vision confirms, not corrects, what your arms did.