Why Carry a 1911? Gun Guys

[JHC]

Couple random thoughts about 1911s and special mission units.

The mission tempo for those units has always been high. "Inside Delta Force" by CSM Eric Haney describes a grueling training and deployment schedule in the 80's and 90's. I imagine that tempo increased by an order of magnitude once GWOT started. That alone will make it harder to service a fleet of 1911s.

I've also read an article (can't find it now) that Delta's pistol protocol for shooting bad guys changed in the mid-2000's, from "a few rounds in the body and one in the head" to "lots of rounds in every available target". I don't know if this is true, but if it is, it would have pushed their round count even higher than it was previously, adding further strain to the maintenance cycle.

One of the things that I'm curious about is if the transition to Glock included after-market barrels and triggers. We know Glocks are accurate out of the box, but the special mission units have always placed a premium on accuracy, and a stock Glock is unlikely to group as well as a high-end 1911. Obviously, Chuck Pressburg customized his Glock to his preferences (the Roland Special) but I'm curious if accuracy mods were a norm in those units. (ETA: the same question could be asked of the FBI HRT regarding their transition from Springfield Pros to Glocks).

I'm also curious why we hear so much about the 1911's used by some some special units, and so little about the Sig 226 that DEVGRU (apparently) used for a long stretch.

By that time they may have been pretty much Glock for the sandy dusty war zones. Probably .40s at that time. That's the indications I've heard. Approximately.

[JonInWA]

I shot a Gen 3 G21 for years before becoming a 1911 guy. Great gun! Carried a G30 at the time. The 21 ate my reloads without a hiccup. The G30 would occasionally choke on Semi-Wad Cutters and I learned this is a common issue with the G30.

I purchased a G21 SF for my son to use/train with. Every time I handled the 21 SF I kept thinking it's not that much different than the 21. Then I holstered the 21 SF and drew it at speed and it felt like foreign pistol of unknown origin. The difference was quite apparent in the draw.

Same here-I found no discernable difference between my G21 and a G21 SF that would justify my getting a G21 SF. And a very experience senior LEO and IDPA shooter of my acquaintance much prefers his G21 to a G41; the G21 apparently provides better recoil control characteristics...

Best, Jon

[SW CQB 45]

We were in G21s at the start which was 1992 (2 digit prefix) and I got mine in 93 (AFN710 still recall the serial number).

We were breaking extractors at the start because the ejection port was cut at 90 degree and we had to send our slides back for a 15 degree cut.

We would experience misfires either because of limp wristing from weak shooters or cheap, hard primer or concave base ammo that Admin was buying.

2011, We started replacing G21s with G21SF and Glock sent us ambi mag release models by mistake and mags were dumping on their own. Glock took them back and sent us SF models.

Modern times, our officers were complaining the G21 was too big.... so we eventually phased them out for G17/19 and now the big complaint is this gun shoots left! HA!

I put many a Full Ball down range from my original issued G21 till around 96ish and bounced around with SW4500 till 2008 when new Admin approved 1911 for duty carry.

Some of the original G21s from the early 90s had curved frames, but they still worked. I had to put plus trigger bars in them to make them pass spec. You could see more daylight in between the frame to slide in the center.

While this image is not our gun, its an example of either the frame rails set too high or over time the frame fatigued, but it still worked.

[HCM]

Couple random thoughts about 1911s and special mission units.

The mission tempo for those units has always been high. "Inside Delta Force" by CSM Eric Haney describes a grueling training and deployment schedule in the 80's and 90's. I imagine that tempo increased by an order of magnitude once GWOT started. That alone will make it harder to service a fleet of 1911s.

The USMC's special units handled that by having two 1911s for each operator, one in use and one being serviced.

I've also read an article (can't find it now) that Delta's pistol protocol for shooting bad guys changed in the mid-2000's, from "a few rounds in the body and one in the head" to "lots of rounds in every available target". I don't know if this is true, but if it is, it would have pushed their round count even higher than it was previously, adding further strain to the maintenance cycle.

One of the things that I'm curious about is if the transition to Glock included after-market barrels and triggers. We know Glocks are accurate out of the box, but the special mission units have always placed a premium on accuracy, and a stock Glock is unlikely to group as well as a high-end 1911. Obviously, Chuck Pressburg customized his Glock to his preferences (the Roland Special) but I'm curious if accuracy mods were a norm in those units. (ETA: the same question could be asked of the FBI HRT regarding their transition from Springfield Pros to Glocks).

In the 80s/90s those units (CAG, HRT) were focused on hostage rescue and "tubular assault" of planes, trains, busses full of innocents mixed in with bad guys. Both were modeled on the 70s/80s SAS and GSG9. Hence the focus on pistols and pistol accuracy back then. In the GWOT, not so much. Many of the HRT / SWAT guys I've talked to have stories about 1911 reliability and durability issues and I suspect they found skill > the perceived accuracy advantage of any particular platform.

"Glocks" is a pretty broad category. Gen 1/2/3 Glocks were 3-4" guns at 25 yards Gen 4's and particularly Gen 5s are much more accurate. The Gen 1/2/3 guns required fitted aftermarket barrels for greater accuracy. In the mid 2000's Tigerswan instructors (mostly former CAG guys) were rocking some of the first "custom" Glocks which featured fitted aftermarket barrels and Dawson adjustable sights.... just like the 1911's they replaced.... You might see factory minus connectors or polished factory parts but aftermarket triggers don't hold up to the firing schedules for units like these.

I'm also curious why we hear so much about the 1911's used by some some special units, and so little about the Sig 226 that DEVGRU (apparently) used for a long stretch.

The Cooper cult / 1911 fetishism. DEVGRU started with Beretta 92s and S&W M-66 revolvers before they went to the P226 and the derivative Mk25.

[underhook]

I don't see any discussion on capacity or operating the safeties when in an entangled gunfight.

The Police Chief magazine experiment took non sworn and timed how long it took them to figure the safeties out. A better test would have been to leave a 1911 in the jail and see how fast criminals can operate it.

[FNFAN]

A better test would have been to leave a 1911 in the jail and see how fast criminals can operate it.

It would just get traded for honeybuns and bj's.

[TheNewbie]

It would just get traded for honeybuns and bj's.

That is epic.



Are the G21s any more prone to “limp wristing” than other Glocks?

[SW CQB 45]

That is epic.



Are the G21s any more prone to “limp wristing” than other Glocks?

I dont think so. Most limp wristing with us were those who did not put any time into training.

I feel our firearms training is much improved for those who still dont train on their own.

[CSW]

That is epic.



Are the G21s any more prone to “limp wristing” than other Glocks?

The limp wrists go with the honeybuns and bj's.

[underhook]

It would just get traded for honeybuns and bj's.

Does a 1911 get your more of these than a plastic fantastic?