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Thread: Flashlight Techniques

  1. #21
    We are diminished
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    nyeti and Wayne, you know I love you guys but I'm throwing the flag on the "until you've been there" play.

    All of the instructors at Rogers are experienced LE and/or military guys. They've all worked at night. They prefer the Rogers technique.

    All of the Surefire Institute stuff (much of which formed the genesis of the Strategos program) came from experienced military and LE guys, too. And they don't agree with the guys at Rogers, who don't agree with what you're saying.

    I could go on and on. Clearly, reasonable experienced people who've studied this stuff at length have come to different conclusions. It would be stupid to ignore what you guys have learned and concluded from your experience. But it would also be stupid to ignore what those other guys have learned and concluded from theirs.

    Getting more specific, i know from experience that I can shoot better SHO/temple index than from a Harries. I can maintain the temple index with absolutely no fatigue, and it's very easy to make it work with L and R barricades without changing my grip or having to move the light much at all. It gives me completely independence between where the light is pointed and where the gun is pointed. I'm genuinely curious what you find in Harries (and I'm unfamiliar with "reverse Harries") that you feel has an advantage over that. I'm happy with play with it again -- I haven't shot Harries in years other than a few shots here and there while teaching -- if there's a legitimate benefit.

  2. #22
    Site Supporter
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Allen, TX

    There is obvious cross over and obvious differences between all the schools of thought here for sure. My concern is that some folks are jumping in here as quasi-authorities when they have exactly ZERO operational experience of dealing with turds (or suspected ones) in the dark. I've used the Harries, Chapman, neck index and temple index methods in various situations on street contacts, suspect searches in fields and structures and even one in a dryer! I'm not tied to any TTP unless it works. I find the Rogers technique to be awkward for me, so I don't use it. If somebody else does, then they should drive on with it. It does NOT work with a duty style flashlight, so it's a non-starter for most LE officers.

    I will listen to (and promply steal) the methods and information of any credible source of information on anything out there, be they mil, LE, PSD or otherwise. The uninformed, inexperienced and untested theoretical sources don't get my attention. And on that one, I shall retire for the evening!
    Regional Government Sales Manager for Aimpoint, Inc. USA
    Co-owner Hardwired Tactical Shooting (HiTS)

  3. #23
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Pittsburg, KS
    Does anyone use the Graham technique? In my civilian shooting experience of USPSA style night matches and training it gives me the fastest target acquisition, best recoil control, splits and accuracy. I've practiced the Harries & Rogers before that and neither of them worked as well. The separate hand techniques (FBI or neck index) don't seem to gain anything in ease of use and shooting SHO definitely doesn't help your shooting ability. WML is, of course, better by far but when using a handheld the Graham has worked best.

    I can't argue the best for a search but have not had any issues with it in shooting from awkward positions, under, through or around barriers and during movement.

    Here's an image of it in use by Mr. Graham.

    Unlike him I mount the combat ring to my ring finger and run the light between my middle and ring fingers (one finger down from him). For my hand size (5'9" average hands) that gives me the best index and weapon control. The ring allows me to retain the light with no wasted motion if I need to reload, clear a malfunction or open a door and if I need to separate my hands for any reason I can still use the light by closing my fist and pressing the tailcap against my palm.

  4. #24
    We are diminished
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Wayne -- I'm with you. As I said, I agree that Rogers is (for me) awkward and like you it doesn't work with the flashlight I choose to carry every day. But enough other folks like it (including guys who have checked the BTDT box) that I've got a hard time rejecting it wholesale or criticizing someone who has trained with those guys and chose to adopt it as a result.

  5. #25
    Lomshek-I stated above if I was looking for a pure "shooting with a flashlight" technique, it would probably be Graham.

    Todd, no problem. Again, I know for fact what works in the field through thousands live contacts to support my conclusions. Its the only card I have, so we'll just fold and move on. Whatever works best for an IDPA match is probably fine too, so I'll just climb back under the rock, read and learn. Carry on.
    Just a Hairy Special Snowflake supply clerk with no field experience, shooting an Asymetric carbine as a Try Hard. Snarky and easily butt hurt. Favorite animal is the Cape Buffalo....likely indicative of a personality disorder.
    "If I had a grandpa, he would look like Delbert Belton".

  6. #26
    Todd, if you are carrying the Quark, I find the operation of its end cap to be impossible to do the Rogers with. Streamlight, same size, works fine.

    Wayne, if you are referring to me, as claiming to be the quasi authority, that sure isn't my intention. I never suggested what's best for being a night shift police officer. I said, from the beginning, that I find the Rogers as being the second best SHOOTING flashlight position, after a WML. That is based on shooting, not acting as a LE person, and specifically considering my needs which are to be able to shoot a heavy caliber revolver or 10mm at night, and control recoil. It took a while to grow on me, but Kyle and Adam at Rogers told me to persevere, and now I am completely comfortable with it. Besides Rogers instructors, they are working police officers, responsible for training and members of their SWAT team.

    If the standard for discussing flashlight techniques is having worked as a LE officer, the standard for discussing pistol shooting is having shot multiple people, and the standard for discussing wound ballistics is having done autopsies, we are going to have a quite a different forum than we do here at PF.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Pittsburg, KS
    Sorry Nyeti, I just reread the thread and saw that on page 1. Must have missed it the first time through.

  8. #28
    We are diminished
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Quote Originally Posted by nyeti View Post
    Whatever works best for an IDPA match is probably fine too, so I'll just climb back under the rock, read and learn. Carry on.
    Dude. I never mentioned IDPA (which I haven't shot in four years) nor would most IDPA folks opt for neck/temple index.

    My question was sincere and still stands: what does Harries (and reverse Harries, which I'd still like to hear about or at least see a photo of) do, in your opinion/experience, that one-handed shooting doesn't?

  9. #29
    I recently took a 2 day low/light tactical firearms class which included Force on Force w/ simunitions on the first day and then an evening at the range in the second. We experimented with Harries, Rogers, neck indexing, the ole FBI hold the light in the weak hand way out to the side, Ayoob Technique, and the Graham, as well as others. The thing that settled most with me was what the instructor said..."Use what works for you". So, on the second day of training I decided to use my Streamlight SL-20 and neck index and the Rogers technique with my Streamlight Nightfighter LED. I liked both and had no issues with either...with the caveat being that the Rogers technique would get awfully close to the mag release.

    I really liked the Rogers technique and shot well and fast with it. The others just felt awkward. So much that I just disregarded them.

    I work patrol so I settled in with the neck index...reference stopping a lot of cars at night. I shot well, albeit slower, with it.

    I think it all comes down to application. If I'm stopping cars or just about anything else while @ work I'm using the neck index. It places the light where I can see what needs to be seen and can be used as an impact weapon should it be needed. If I turn my head the light follows. I ALWAYS (day or night) carry the SL-20 on my belt. Its heavy but it has a dual purpose. I've always seemed to use the larger flashlights in a similiar manner...carrying it with my weak hand craddled on my shoulder. The drawbacks that I have found with this technique is that it's SHO and magazine changes are slower. Its not the optimum but after 17 years it seems to work the best for me. Having that SL-20 as a buffer when an attack or resistance starts has always been beneficial.

    Now, when it comes to IDPA I use the Nightfighter LED & I use the Rogers technique. Plain and's just faster. On magazine changes I can simply grab the mag while still holding the light. That being said, I have only shot 1 low light/dark stage at a sanctioned match and 1 Day/Night match in 4 or 5 years of shooting IDPA.

    Why the difference in shooting styles? The paper targets...I dont need to smack them as they dont threaten me all that much.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Dobbs View Post
    He may be academically brilliant, but he's not operationally capable. Until you've had extensive experiences with managing lights, weapons, radios, assisting officers, uninvolved personnel, unknown personnel and suspects at the same time, you don't know yet what you don't know.
    Beautifully put.

    What a polite way of saying, "If you haven't got the T-shirt, you really don't know what you're talking about."


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