Gadfly,Originally Posted by Gadfly
Thanks, These look very attractive. How about the Police Trade-in's? Anyone have war stories to tell about them? Reliable? Good condition, beyond minimal scratches, etc? I can easily envision over-worked, worn out junkyard dogs here. Good deal for the prices offered?
Last edited by Mudbug; 06-14-2018 at 02:27 PM.
I see. It can be tricky when switching to unfamiliar equipment. This is also why I asked about the type of 'sight picture' you were using. The founder of this forum, Todd Green (who has passed away), has a website called Pistol-Training.com . Todd was a wealth of knowledge and a very respected instructor. I will attempt to post a picture and a link to a short summary by Todd regarding 'sight picture' and how it can result in differences between point of aim and impact in the vertical plane. This could potentially account for some of what you were experiencing. Forgive me if you are already intimately familiar with this concept, but it never hurts to be exposed to information presented by someone like Todd G.
https://pistol-training.com/archives/1361
If you happen to be used to a sight picture more like #1 on a target style .22 handgun, and then you apply a similar sight pictures to a gun that happens to require more of a #3 sight picture, you may find that rounds have a tendency to hit lower.
Todd's website is a great resource for anybody aspiring to a high level of proficiency with a handgun! Even if you are already familiar with this topic, I'd recommend reading Todd's take on it, as well as reviewing other topics there as well.
Most of the police trade ins I have bought and dealt with were carried a LOT and shot a LITTLE.
Most of those quoted are ranked on their respective web sites as Good/Fair/Very Good... they dont always accept Poor condition trade ins.
You an expect holster wear on the finish, and some minor digs from seat belts. BUT, was the trade in gun from a patrolman and exposed to the elements, or was it from a Desk Sgt who was inside all day, or was it from a detective who kept it concealed IWB so it was never scratched up, or was it the over purchase spare gun kept in the armory and never fired or issued? (we keep 5-10 NIB guns in the safe to cover for lost/stolen guns or to replace guns used in a shooting that go into evidence)
The one I listed as "Very Good Condition with Night Sights" would be one to look into. I personally prefer the M&P 2.0 to the 1.0, but that is a good price...
Its a roll of the dice. I bought a used 229 DAK that was a Michigan State police trade in. Mine looked like it had never been into a holster on the slide, but on the grip front strap there was a gold colored rub mark. So someone who wore a gold ring on their right hand had fired it, But never carried it. Internally, the rails had 98% of their finish. I would bet less than 200 rounds through the gun. My co worker was so impressed, he bought 4 from the same folks I did (one for him and one for each of his 3 adult kids). Two of the four pistols looked like mine, pretty imaculate, the other two had lost of scratches and dings in the grip and one side of the rear of the slide. exactly the marks it would get worn in a holster on patrol, banging into the set belt hardware of the drivers seat. Internally, they all looked barely fired. The MSP shoot 50 rounds per year, so a 10 year old gun would have a low round count, even if you factor in a transition course upon issue.
Its your call obviously, but even if there is cosmetic dings on the outside, I will bet money most trade in guns have LOW round counts, most under 1000 rounds or less.
“A gun is a tool, Marian; no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that.” - Shane
Thanks, exactly the kind of report I hoped to hear. I am not worried a great deal about a few dings and seat belt rubbings, but hope for reliablility and internal integrity with these kinds of prices. Thanks for putting me on the Police Trade-In option.
No, I had not heard of Todd Green's Pistol-Training.com, nor the three Sight Images.
As I was reading your text, and moving toward the replies you listed, I could not picture which I preferred. I had to pull out all three of my handguns to see how I aimed them. The two .22s have dots (one is all whites, the other is all green optical). The .38 Special has no dots. So I am thinking that I might be using Image two with that one, which could account for a problem that I experienced when using my revolver at the IDPA matches for the first time this month.
I definitely use Sight Image 3 almost all the time when target shooting the .22s. I learned to shoot in basic training in the army, but that was back in 1968...50 years ago this September-November. All that I actually remember from that training was to line up the top of front sight even with the two back sights across the top, then line it up as #2 depicts. I am pretty positive that we didn't have dots on the M-14 rifles we trained with. I am a Vietnam veteran, but never got to fire the M-16, so I cannot say whether or not they had the white dots. I never hunted much with rifle scopes, and shotguns I used has no sights. That pretty much accounts for all my gun handling experiences. Well, except for two or three times I got to shoot the Quad 50 machine guns while on weekly guard duty on Hill 180 near Phu Bai, VN. (I was never involved in combat) That was a real rush!!!
I can see where Sight Image 1 and 2 would bring down the shot pattern on the target. It might not seem much like it, but the difference between #2 and #3 could easily be a 4" drop at 21 feet (7 yards). But if the manufacturer set the gun up with #2, then my pattern using #3 should have been high on the target, wouldn't it?
I will go to Todd's website and do a lot of reading. It sounds like he covers a lot that I need to learn.
Joe
Last edited by Mudbug; 06-14-2018 at 03:32 PM.
This is a picture of how OUR academy guns were moved and stored. They were not abused, but they were not babied either.
This is how we treated the SIMS pistols. But in all fairness, the SIMS pistols are old worn service pistols that get Ceracoated blue and given a second life rather than scrap them.
And this is the “used” I got that is a former MSP pistol. You can see the rub mark on the front strap. Besides that, the gun looks almost un fired.
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“A gun is a tool, Marian; no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that.” - Shane
I think it's pretty easy to say the OP is flinching. He shoots 2" groups at 7 yards with a 22 target pistol but shoots low with a centerfire duty pistol.
(broken record mode activated) Most ranges these days have rentals for like $10-20 and require that you purchase the ammo from them. And most should have Glocks and M&P's. It's well worth it even if you put only a few rounds down range through each. You'll like the way one sits in your grip better, the natural point alignment better, recoil impulse, etc. You'll have a distinct preference. Of course, you can adapt to most anything with practice, but with the quality of the 'common pistols' being mostly equal... you get the point. An ounce of prevention...
You will more often be attacked for what others think you believe than what you actually believe. Expect misrepresentation, misunderstanding, and projection as the modern normal default setting. ~ Quintus Curtius
I second Gadfly's appraisal of police trade-ins. I've had great luck with them over the years. However, I strongly recommend you NOT get a .40. The recoil is much greater than a 9mm, and ammo costs more.
There is a ton of good info on that site. I don't think you would regret it. A forum member here put together a good intro package with organized links to Pistol-Training.com articles and drills. Even though it's called "Todd G for beginners", it has valuable articles and drills for shooters of all skill levels and experience. You never really outgrow these kinds of drills. And, as they are explained by a top notch instructor, you will pick up some of the modern vocabulary and terminology that high-level instructors and competitors are using to talk about shooting.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....-for-Beginners
I go back to these articles periodically when I need to refocus and regroup my shooting fundamentals.
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