Use of RDS on service pistols

[Plan]

Although high quality red dot sights are now considered by most to be an essential item for those running a carbine, their use with duty pistols is still relatively rare (aside from the specialized roles of competition, hunting, etc.)

As a greater variety of rugged, very compact RDS come to market, do you believe that we will see a change in the commonality of the compact, pistol-mounted RDS? I am referring primarily to the Trijicon RMR as that is what I am most familier with, but I realize that there are several other RDS designed or acceptible for use on handguns.

I am aware that use of a RDS on a handgun utilized for concealed carry presents a certain set of problems (holster selection being one, at least in the short term), but I think for a LE duty pistol it would be very functional. I have always felt that the nature of the service pistol doesn't necessarily require a particularly compact weapon and is best served with functional enhancements, such as weapon lights.

Disclaimer: I have had limited range time with pistol mounted RDS, have not trained with them, and currently do not own any handguns utilizing them. I am simply interested in future utilization of this concept.

[JHC]

A few years ago when the Fastfire came out, I got one and put it on a G19. The first gen Fastfire was not much of a sight. But that notwithstanding, I was not impressed with the concept. In dynamic drills I found it much slower to pick up the dot in the window than irons. Good and fast down a rack of plates once you got on it. But add moving around and picking up new targets, not so much.

New better sights may improve that a lot. OTOH, among all the early adoptors, I do see quite a few reports that even after a few thousand rounds, the shooter is not as fast on the first shot as they were with irons. Much more accurate at any distance, but not faster for fast drills. I think throwing up a handgun without a shoulder and/or cheek weld anchor point is quite different.

I think it's totally terrific folks are pushing this envelope and refining the concept. I've not problem with any of that. I'm pretty sure a lot of the shooters who had slides carved up to mount mini RDS will not end up carrying them around concealed in the end.

Yep, really dialed in people have posted and one has told me directly that some very high speed mil folks are running these. Great. They run a lot of gear I don't aspire to. It may be superior. For me, I'm not convinced.

Today I'm doing very well with monovision set up contact lens. But sooner or later, I'll probably be forced to go optics with something like this to compensate for vision issues.

[DocGKR]

This topic has been discussed previously, but the following is a re-cap of the high points:

There has recently been quite a bit of interest in mounting mini RDS on duty and CCW handgun slides. Vision issues, including middle-aged presbyopia can compromise the ability to see the front sight on traditional sights. One trick is to use bright reflective tape or paint on the front sight (http://pistol-training.com/articles/...ty-front-sight) or a bright fiber optic front sight insert. Another option is to go with a rear sight with a wider notch and a high visibility front sight--the extreme version of this being the XS 24/7 Big Dot sight system.

Retired Santa Clara PD SWAT officer and gunsmith Don Lazzarini and some of the older SWAT guys around here have used mini-RDS on their handguns for over a decade, as has noted polymer pistolsmith and LE SWAT officer David Bowie (http://www.bowietacticalconcepts.com/index.html). In addition, some very capable military SOF personnel have also been using this modification. Some of the more common electronic sights used in this role include the J-Point, Dr. Optic, ITI Mini-RDS, Leupold DeltaPoint, Trijicon RMR, and the Aimpoint H1/T1. While a small 2-4 MOA dot works nicely for pure target shooting, a larger dot of 6-8 MOA or so seems to be better for most defensive purposes with duty/CCW handguns.



Over the past 18 months we have been experimenting with small slide mounted RDS and find they can be quite useful. There are several options to mount a small RDS on duty/CCW handguns; the easiest method is to drift out the standard rear sight and simply add a dove-tail adapter allowing the RDS to bolt on to the side. The lowest profile method and the one that fosters the most natural shooting position is to permanently mil the slide to allow the RDS to sit lower and allow a more natural shooting position. Tall iron sights, as used with suppressors, allows a rough co-witness with the RDS. Bowie is a class act and a master at this topic. Mark Housel at L&M Precision Gunworks, LLC in Prescott, AZ (http://www.landmprecisiongunworks.com/) has done a good job putting RMR's on my current Glocks and M&P's. Doug Holloway at American Tool & Engraving in MI (www.ateiguns.com) also does very nice work and is highly recommended.









I believe it is critical for a duty/CCW pistol to have back-up iron sights. With BIS, I never have to worry about finding the red dot, even in awkward shooting positions—just line up the iron sights as normal and the red dot is there. In my hands, I discovered that painting the front sight a bright yellow or lime green aids in quickly finding the front sight and rapidly acquiring the dot. When first learning to use the RDS, I strongly preferred the rear BIS in behind the RDS (ie. RDS between the rear BIS and ejection port) as I was able to quickly pick up the irons in the usual manner and then the red dot was exactly where it needed to be, so there was no "hunting" to find the missing dot. As I have gained experience and repetitions in presenting the RDS equipped pistol, finding the dot is much less of an issue and BIS location becomes a relatively moot point. Placing the RDS at the rear edge of the slide with the rear BIS in front of it (ie. BIS between the RDS and ejection port) has its own merits--the view of the RDS is uncluttered, access to rear controls is enabled (especially important on the Leupold Deltapoint and ITI MRDS), holster selection is aided and less holster modifications are necessary, and the front edge of the optic is slightly protected by the BIS.

While nice on long guns, I am utterly unimpressed with the new adjustable intensity RMR-A's for slide mounted pistol use--Trijicon has really blown it on multiple levels in how they are approaching this utilization of the RMR. The RMR-A's that were evaluated seemed to change settings fairly easily. With pistols carried in exposed duty holsters, multiple officers complained of discovering no dot or a dim dot after carrying the pistols for several hours. Likewise, tactical team officers running 6004's found dot settings altered during drills on the range and in the shoot house. I suspect the problem is the side of the sight getting bumped while getting in and out of vehicles multiple times each day, bumping into doorways, and wacking the edge of the holster on various objects. There were quite a few instances where folks doing malfunction clearances discovered their dot settings had inadvertently changed. Worn in a holster that partially covers the RMR like those manufactured by Fricke, I suspect the RMR-A might be protected enough to not suffer from all of these issues.

The ITI MRDS offers some nice features, but because the base is thicker it is hard to properly install BIS compared with the lower profile bases on the RMR and Deltapoint. I wish the micro Aimpoint H1/T1 was a touch smaller, as it is unfortunately a bit too large for service pistol applications; when using a dovetail mount with the micro Aimpoints, it is difficult to get a BIS installed correctly, although this can be mitigated a bit by using a laser as a back-up sighting system. Compared to the RMR, the glass has less distortion on the Deltapoint. The Deltapoint can more easily be mounted on pistols with narrower slides like 1911's. The Deltapoint rim around the glass is much lower in profile than on the RMR making a clearer field of view. The sight adjustments on the Deltapoint can be locked into place--possibly a good thing, unless you don't have the appropriate mini torx driver with you. I wish Leupold would consider making a 7-8 MOA round reticle for the Deltapoint, as the current triangle creates issues with my eyes. The RMR glass has more distortion and a smaller field of view than the Deltapoint, although this does not turn out to be significant in actual use. The RMR 6.5 & 8 MOA red dots are ideal in shape and clarity; the RMR dots are also are brighter than the Deltapoint reticle which we found occasionally nearly washes out in certain lighting conditions. I definitely prefer the round RMR reticle to the Deltapoint triangle. The RMR appears more robust and less prone to have structural failure than the Deltapoint. Battery life seems longer on the RMR's we have compared to our Deltpoints. Skip the self-illuminating RMR's and stick with the battery powered ones in order to ensure adequate dot brightness in all lighting conditions.





At this point, I am tending to prefer the Trijicon 8 MOA RMR02 compared to the Deltapoint. I have shot in light rain using RMR equipped pistols and had no issues. It is easiest to mount an RDS on Glock, M&P, the new FN's, as well as XD's. It is also possible to mount them on 1911's using an adapter plate and some additional tricks. I am unaware of any yet done on HK's, Sig's, or Berretta's.

I had one RMR fail during shooting this past year; since it was a simple electronics failure, the RMR glass was intact, transitioning to the BIS was quick, and it was easy to just keep shooting. If a slide mounted RDS glass did crack or spiderweb then one of two things could happen: either the dot would still be visible and you could continue to use the sight like an old OEG or the dot would stop functioning in which case you are going to need to punch out the glass with a knife or multi-tool in order to effectively use the slide mounted BIS. As noted, a laser is a possible back-up sight; we’ve been playing with the CTC lasergrips in conjunction with the slide mounted RDS—this can work. Keep in mind that when both the RDS and laser are on, depending on distance to target and laser zero, you may see two red dots—some people freak out when this occurs; personally I have not noticed this to be an issue for me. In addition, at longer ranges outside in bright daylight, you are likely not going to see your laser dot on the target; in general the CTC lasers work better at closer ranges, indoors, and in darker lighting conditions.

It does take a lot of dry firing/drawing and several thousand live rounds to become proficient with an RDS. I am still not as quite as fast using the RDS, however, I am substantially more accurate with the RDS, especially at longer ranges. Shooting at moving targets and when I am moving is substantially easier with the RDS. In addition, the RDS allows me to remain fully focused on the threat and not have to transition back to the front sight prior to firing—this is an incredibly SIGNIFICANT factor!



If I still had perfect vision, I might consider staying with iron sights due to the speed advantage; however, given the vision changes following my bicycle accident induced basilar skull fracture 18 months ago, as well as the onset of middle-age presbyopia, I personally NEVER want to go back to irons.

Holsters for pistols with a slide mounted RDS require a bit of thought; the best I have used so far for off-duty/CCW use are the Fricke Seraphim for AIWB & IWB, along with the Fricke Gideon Elite for OWB (http://dalefrickeholsters.com). Another good OWB holster is the Alessi DOJ-open port. A relatively cheap and easy to acquire holster that works with RDS equipped pistols is the Comp Tac Belt Holster. The Raven RCS and CCC Looper work very well after minor modification to the front edges of the shirt guard and area over the ejection port. The Holsters Plus Sure-Lock OWB retention holster function fine with RDS sights. For overt tactical/duty carry of RDS equipped pistols, the Safariland 6004 and other SLS variants work well, but require more substantial holster modifications. Unfortunately, the typical Safariland ALS holsters do not work with RDS sights at this time, although Safariland has now introduced the 6354 ALS holster for use with 9 mm and .40 S&W Glocks using a slide mounted RDS.



The consensus around here seems to be that the Trijicon 8 MOA LED RMR milled into the slide in conjunction with tall back-up iron sights is the best current option for mounting an RDS on a duty/CCW pistol. I currently have 9 mm Glocks and M&P45's set-up with RMR-02's.

[Kyle Reese]

Thank you for an extremely well written & informative post, Doc. I always learn something new when I read your writings.

[JHC]

Thank you for an extremely well written & informative post, Doc. I always learn something new when I read your writings.

+1 Wow, that was one epic post. [and those were just the "high points" ]

Might as well send to the reference section!

[willowofwisp]

Everything Doc said lines up from what I have experienced. I am just the average joe who carries a weapon concealed, has taken a few classes and shoots PPC..but when I decided to get into the idea of carrying a gun with an RDS I did quite a bit of research, and talked to several people who I consider in the know before I made my decision. I have ran all three setups RDS with no BUIS, RDS with BUIS behind RDS, and RDS with BUIS in front, of all the setups I found the RDS with BUIS behind to be the best option. I also tried both the RMR and deltapoint..and chose the RMR, especially after hearing issues with the delta point from several forums and then a Doug Halloway having issues with his own delta point.

All of my slide work was done by Doug Halloway, the machining for the foot print and then the slide having the nickel boron finish applied. I have ran approx 2500 rounds through the gun in the past two months...shooting at a distance has increased in speed and effectiveness. The only shortcoming I had with the dot was that even after telling myself over and over to line up the iron sights and the dot will be there I was pressing out and hunting for the dot...this was easily solved by practicing my dry fire with the batteries removed from the RDS, that way I only had the sights and RDS window in front of me, after about two weeks my press outs become proficient and I was no longer hunting for the dot.

In terms of reliability and durability while my experience is short thus far I have had no issues..I have ran the sight pretty hard..and have used it several times to clear malfunctions one handed..whether it was off my Ares Gear belt, Raven holster, a wooden barricade, my boot and even off of a table. The RMR has yet to loose its zero or show any issues. (I am running the RMR02 but have thought of trying the adjustable)
A picture of my Sight picture



A picture of me running the gun at MDFI HG1 and of a fellow shooter running an m&p with no BUIS

[Doug]

Doc's post was fantastic especially appealing for those who are interested in potentially testing the concept.

I am a relatively new shooter, 5 years, reaching in my mid 40s. I don't see my eyes staying in good form forever although I had the surgery done in my 30s. I use bright green tape on my front sight which seems to help.

As background, my shooting is for self defense and pure love of it. Been building on regular training classes. Hope to CCW once the laws are altered in the restrictive County I reside.

Questions for those who have tried the concept.

1. Did you go all in or first try just mounting on the slide with a plate? Just curious.

2. Would it make any sense to first out fit your weapon, mine would be a Glock 19, with the supressor sights first to master for few months? My reasoning would be to have a baseline with the back up sights first then see how the RDS affects performance.

3. Does the RDS give equal or better rise to noting flaws in your shooting technique and/or overcoming them? Calling your shot or noticing the dreaded flinch, trigger jerk, ....

4. How many have EDC the RDS either IWB or OWB effectively for CCW?

Doug

[willowofwisp]

Doc's post was fantastic especially appealing for those who are interested in potentially testing the concept.

I am a relatively new shooter, 5 years, reaching in my mid 40s. I don't see my eyes staying in good form forever although I had the surgery done in my 30s. I use bright green tape on my front sight which seems to help.

As background, my shooting is for self defense and pure love of it. Been building on regular training classes. Hope to CCW once the laws are altered in the restrictive County I reside.

Questions for those who have tried the concept.

1. Did you go all in or first try just mounting on the slide with a plate? Just curious.

I went all out and had my slide machined, none of the other guns I had tried previously used the adapter plates.

2. Would it make any sense to first out fit your weapon, mine would be a Glock 19, with the supressor sights first to master for few months? My reasoning would be to have a baseline with the back up sights first then see how the RDS affects performance.

I sort of did this by removing the battery from the RMR during my dry fire practice for a few weeks, I have shot the gun a few times without the RMR and just using suppressor sights...I am noticeably faster at closer distances...unless i use the RMR as a ghost ring.

3. Does the RDS give equal or better rise to noting flaws in your shooting technique and/or overcoming them? Calling your shot or noticing the dreaded flinch, trigger jerk, ....

I more often than not can notice trigger jerk..especially during dry fire practice, the dot movement is noticable If i don't have a perfect straight pull back. I would say its better on that note....an RDS won't make a crappy shooter a great shooter...it may bring them up a few notches but it won't make you awesome...the dot wont fix poor trigger control.

4. How many have EDC the RDS either IWB or OWB effectively for CCW?

I EDC my 19 with RMR in a Raven Concealment Phantom, using the IWB softloops and offset mount so I can tuck in my shirt if needed.

Doug

[Plan]

Doc & Willofwisp - thank you for the excellent posts. I also found the included photos very informative, really demonstrating some variations of the RDS/pistol concept. This thread has made me eager to set up an M&P for this purpose.

[willowofwisp]

Doc & Willofwisp - thank you for the excellent posts. I also found the included photos very informative, really demonstrating some variations of the RDS/pistol concept. This thread has made me eager to set up an M&P for this purpose.

Plan, here is a good website by Gabe Suarez that should help you out too, a ton more pictures.

http://www.reddotpistols.com/

I just wanted to add, for the RMR on the m&p they changed the way they machined hte slide, which allowed the RMR to sit further back from the ejection port, unlike Doc's which is pretty close.