Smith & Wesson (re)enters the pump gun market

Yeah, autoloader for sure. I've messed around with a few 1100's. If you just use the right size ammo and keep them clean they run pretty well, at least the ones I had did.

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Originally Posted by Hambo

Sigh...



Dammit. If I ran across that I'd buy 2-3 of them.

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I'm sorely tempted to grab one but, I'm also contemplating another Pizza Gat and some form of manual action .308 and/or .223...

I can hook you up with their contact info. I'm pretty sure they'd ship you a couple. :)

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Originally Posted by BehindBlueI's

...which S&W also jumped on with the Governor.

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Ran into a shooting buddy with a Governor in a nylon chest rig. He said he uses it as a snake gun. I figured I would do better to stay quiet. In fairness, where we were it is not uncommon to run across snakes, a few of which are poisonous, but I cannot imagine a good pattern with shot with a rifled handgun barrel. And if one is going to use a handgun round, I rather have more barrel and less cylinder length.

Make money by selling what people will buy, not what makes more sense as a tool and does not sell ....

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Originally Posted by TCinVA

Probably because designing a system that self feeds the wide variety of ammunition available for shotguns is expensive and difficult and even with more conventional shotgun design there's only a handful that actually work very well.



No, that's not it. The people who are making these things don't know much about defensive shotguns either.

The overriding goals here seem to be chasing capacity and a short OAL. The weight, the complication of loading, introducing significant offset...it sacrifices a number of things that make the shotgun good at close range to chase capacity and AR controls, neither of which are really a benefit to the defensive use of the shotgun.

Worse still, they achieve a short OAL while simultaneously making a length of pull that is entirely too long for even above average sized males, ensuring that the gun will kick the ass of most people who try to shoot it. You can see it in the videos hitting youtube:

<span style="color: rgb(5, 5, 5); font-family: &quot;Segoe UI Historic&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; white-space: pre-wrap;">https://youtu.be/zdWMTjaOYDA

Everyone who you see shooting that thing is stretched out and getting their shit handed to them by the gun...which is what happens when the LOP is too long, you're stuck with pistol grips that force a locked wrist, and you generally don't know how to use shotguns well. (Which most don't)

If I had to guess, I'd say the S&W version here is going to be more durable and reliable than the finicky Kel-Tec. I've seen precisely one specimen make it through a class without problems. I recently had a client who loved his Kel-Tec in class even though it had to go off the line for like 30 minutes while another instructor tried to unfuck it to get it to work again. Which it did only sporadically. I hope that person buys the S&W and find that it at least works properly.

But if that turns out to be true, it's a good execution of a terrible idea.

This shotgun was designed to sell shotguns to people who don't know anything about shotguns. And shotguns are gaining ground as home defense weapons lately because everybody from Joe Biden to Dave Chapelle is telling people they're great. I have a feeling I know a lot more about comedy than Dave Chapelle knows about shotguns, and I'm reasonably sure I could plan a better exit from a two-decade war than Biden pulled off, but neither of those people know a goddamn thing about defensive shotgunnery. So, yes, I'm saying I'd be better at their job than they would be at mine...but people actually take the information seriously and companies need to sell things. So I expect to see even more ridiculous shotguns in the near future.

Maybe lever-action shotguns will be next, spurred on by all the people who don't have meaningful experience actually trying to run a lever gun seriously enough to find out that they are finicky as shit and kind of suck.

Combine widespread ignorance with bad information spewed by people who don't know anything and a hunger for novelty and this is the result.

Buying something like an 870 or a 1301, configuring it properly and learning how to use it is nowhere near as enticing, it would seem, as buying goofy shit. Still, there will be people who actually want a defensive tool and will seek out training and in the process will learn why goofy configurations suck. And then they'll buy an 870 or a 1301 and configure it properly. And they'll occasionally scream some wisdom into the void and maybe save a few people the bother.

And the rest...well...they'll be on youtube, facetweet, and instabook getting their shit rocked when they shoot a goofy shotgun.

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Pretty much this to a T. A bullpup shotgun is a terrible idea only suitable for people that don't actually shoot guns; they look cool, can't wait to see it in Aliens 6 or some other sci-fi movie but from an actual usability stand point it's a bunch of cons with very little pros. This will be bought by a bunch of people, shot half a dozen times over the course of several years and that is fine but it doesn't really excite me.

With a bullpup rifle the reloads are a bit slower but it's still manageable because you can add 30 rounds with only a marginally slower reload time compared to a non-bullpup.

With a shotgun you have limited rounds to begin with and reloading was already slow. A bullpup shotgun is going to require a ton of extra training to make it not suck all so that you can have a few extra rounds at the start.

Not that 3-gun is the end all be all but I'm imagining if you were to design a course of fire to require 30 shells and put two guys with limited experience give one of them this or the kel-tec fully loaded and the other a 1300 fully loaded I would be shocked if the person with the 1300 didn't have a better time.

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Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer

In the video, it did not look like so much fun to shoot. The woman got a significant push back against her shoulder. It will sell for movie prop departments looking for a Bug (Starship Troopers ) or a Colonial Marines (Aliens) gun.

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I wouldn't take it on a stand up mission let alone a bug hunt.

Rate of fire and reloads - too slow for fast zombies. I guess I'm not impressed, I have my Winchester 1300 Defender that I used for Givens and Moses classes and shot in some local matches. Thought about the 1301 but really have no need. Watching the video and with my screwed up right shoulder (lefty here), that racking looks like it would be horrible.

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Originally Posted by farscott

Ran into a shooting buddy with a Governor in a nylon chest rig. He said he uses it as a snake gun. I figured I would do better to stay quiet. In fairness, where we were it is not uncommon to run across snakes, a few of which are poisonous, but I cannot imagine a good pattern with shot with a rifled handgun barrel. And if one is going to use a handgun round, I rather have more barrel and less cylinder length.

Make money by selling what people will buy, not what makes more sense as a tool and does not sell ....

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.22 caliber snakeshot/ratshot is only good for about 6'. The .410 revolvers do a fair bit better than that with quite a few more pellets. They are quite handy for snakes and easier to tote than an actual shotgun. I don't now one nor do I want one but I can appreciate the utility they offer.

I watched a guy run a Governor at an indoor IDPA match a few years ago. He did quite well with it shooting .45 LC ammo.

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Originally Posted by Hambo

I watched the TFB video. At 2:00 he apparently runs out of ammo in one tube and fucks around for 6-7 seconds getting up and running. I'm sure part of that is unfamiliarity, but still... Then S&W guy tells him the secret of easy loading: just tilt it over, stick your tongue out, and hope for the best. OK, fuck this thing.

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Also from the video, he states that there are 'loading assist' buttons to make stuffing the tubes easier, but if pressed to hard will eject whatever is loaded back out the tube. The whole "14+1 rounds!" thing kinda loses its luster when getting it loaded to capacity apparently takes three hands and the dexterity of a professional juggler. And you have to manually switch tanks halfway through that capacity, so you are gonna have a 'click' instead of a 'bang' right in the middle of your string of fire.

And the package just seems so dang bulky in every way other than overall length. I just dont see it being easier to manage than an 870 in most situations.

Edit to add:
Also , Smith will shit out this keltec copy and paste, but discontinue the M&P45c? Or improve the sights on the J-frame?

Sadly, there's always a market for upscale derp.

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Originally Posted by HCM

Gun companies exist to make money, not guns.

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As I say at work: "We're here to make dollars, not sense"