New S&W CSX

[farscott]

This is from Reddit and captures a new SAO 9x19 pistol with an alloy frame, 10-round and 12-round magazines, and ambi thumb safety and slide stop. Supposed to have leaked early. It looks real as S&W filed a trademark application for a firearm "CSX" in August of this year.

https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/rrpgm2/look_its_not_another_mp/

https://www.primerpeak.com/smith-and-wesson-csx-9mm-pistol-leaked/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=leaked-csx-pistol-from-smith-wesson

[steve]

Ummm, that thing is well, ummmm, Ugly.

[Lex Luthier]

All pictures have been pulled. Anyone have another source?

[Flamingo]

I would be interested in it, if it was DA/SA or just DA. I am getting to the point where I think DA is better for appendix carry even with a SCD.

I think it is kind of cool looking. I wonder if they are trying to beat Colt/CZ/Dan Wesson to market with the 1911 style trigger gun.

[CSW]

Screen capture.
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[Bergeron]

Is this something that the market was really looking for, that wasn’t already being covered by other S&W options?

I’d like to think I understand the demand for and introduction of the 10mm M&P, but this thing seems like it falls towards that 12 gauge bullpup than towards other guns.

And I’ve become a little eye-twitchy when I see SAO guns with hammers down and safeties off. I do not understand the number of times I see SAO guns hammer down. I kinda get it, if it’s “just for a pic”, but I hate seeing holstered hammer-down SAOs, and I hate seeing otherwise well-meaning people “de-cocking” their SAO guns. I think promotional pictures like this just keep that problem happening.

[O4L]

It is odd looking. I'll give it that.

Not for me.

[Elwin]

Is this something that the market was really looking for, that wasn’t already being covered by other S&W options?

I’d like to think I understand the demand for and introduction of the 10mm M&P, but this thing seems like it falls towards that 12 gauge bullpup than towards other guns.

Subcompact, moderate capacity, slim SAO with a (hopefully) quality and ergonomic manual safety? Only thing currently filling that niche is the 365, and that's only if you count its safety as good, which not everyone does. Smith's current offerings don't really count because the EZs are lower capacity (and the grips are a bit long to call them subcompact) and the Shield manual safety is worse than useless.

This is the subcompact many people who prefer SAO have been waiting for. I don't currently have the funds or attention span for an "in between" gun to split the difference between a 1911 and an LCR, but if I did, I'd probably be waiting for this to shake out and planning to get one if there aren't major problems with it.

[CSW]

A trigger safety and a thumb safety? 🤔

My thought to a friend and forum member was, if it was to grab the interests of the first timer, y'all gonna give them SAO?

Is it to compete with, say, the Sig 938 size?
Very strange.

[Skinner Precision, LLC]

Interesting, could easily fill the same role a staccato c does , probably cheaper....hopefully it gets to market quicker than the Dan Wesson DWX..

[Navin Johnson]

Seems a bit odd in today's world of safeties are bad

A traditional DA gun would have made more sense I think.

But there's a lot of people to think the 10 mm is popular too for other than for niche groups

[the Schwartz]

Ummm, that thing is well, ummmm, Ugly.

Yep, the 3913 rides again. Of course, the 3913 was a whole lot more aesthetic than the CSX will ever be. Barely even worth a yawn if you ask me.

S'pose I am not the "target demo'' for this gem...:rolleyes:

[KevH]

Meh...

It's like a strange SIG P938 and S&W M&P Shield love child.

A gun no one is asking for that no one really wants.

[03RN]

I doubt I'll buy one but I do kinda like it. The trigger safety is a turnoff.

I also would like an actual DAO option too.

[Tensaw]

I'll stick with the SA-35 Hi-Power. :cool:

[1911Nut]

Prediction: This thing will not sell and will be gone in two years.

[gc70]

Yep, the 3913 rides again. Of course, the 3913 was a whole lot more aesthetic than the CSX will ever be. Barely even worth a yawn if you ask me.

S'pose I am not the "target demo'' for this gem...:rolleyes:

I would be more than happy if S&W resurrected the 3913 with a polymer frame.

[boing]

My first impression based on nothing at all is “I bet it feels fantastic in the hand”. The flat, chamfered front strap will lend a positive, repeatable index for a lot of people, too.

[farscott]

Prediction: This thing will not sell and will be gone in two years.

My prediction is this pistol is the first in a new line that will succeed. I expect versions with optics, different calibers, etc. I am not a likely purchaser, but that means it is more likely to succeed. S&W marketing has improved based on their track record of the last decade. I wonder if the "CSX" is a reference to "Chief's Special" with the "X" denoting the ambidextrous nature of the pistol.

[psalms144.1]

Looks like the Star PD, resurrected in plastic.

I love the 1911, and, if this was truly a 1911 subcompact with a polymer frame, I'd be on it like white on rice. But this? I'll let someone else buy it, shoot it, and sell it to me cheap.

[1911Nut]

My prediction is this pistol is the first in a new line that will succeed. I expect versions with optics, different calibers, etc. I am not a likely purchaser, but that means it is more likely to succeed. S&W marketing has improved based on their track record of the last decade. I wonder if the "CSX" is a reference to "Chief's Special" with the "X" denoting the ambidextrous nature of the pistol.

If I had to bet money on my prediction I would be gone pretty quickly, as I am not much of a prognosticator!

I just have difficult identifying the market for this thing. It seems to perfectly fit the old saying that "just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD"

But then, I might be wrong.

[Bergeron]

The ultimate Colt Mustang, I suppose.

The Kimber Micro and Sig 938 must sell well enough that S&W wanted in on the action, and was willing to commit to a double-stack redesign to differentiate itself. If someone's cross-shopping 938s with Micros, then they should just as soon look at this one. Holster selection for those guns seems thin, though, which makes me doubt sales of those guns are that strong.

I still maintain that if there are potential buyers of Shields, turned off by the low-effort thumb safety, and unwilling to accept a M&P 2.0 Subcompact or EZ9mm with their superior sort of thumb safety, this won't be the gun that would get them to stay in the S&W brand when they might otherwise select a different brand.

[MandoWookie]

Looks like the Star PD, resurrected in plastic.

I love the 1911, and, if this was truly a 1911 subcompact with a polymer frame, I'd be on it like white on rice. But this? I'll let someone else buy it, shoot it, and sell it to me cheap.

Supposedly alloy frame? It doesn't look like polymer in the pic, at least to me. This seems like it is targeted at the subcompact 1911 market more than generic micro 9s. I think this might fit more into the 'old man gun's paradigm that's been discussed on here before.

[GJM]

Interesting, could easily fill the same role a staccato c does , probably cheaper....hopefully it gets to market quicker than the Dan Wesson DWX..

That thing is a Staccato killer if I have ever seen one.

I am assuming that the same design guy who did the CORE system, the new trigger on the M&P 2.0, and the 10mm without conventional iron sights got busy on this project.

[HCM]

A trigger safety and a thumb safety? 🤔

My thought to a friend and forum member was, if it was to grab the interests of the first timer, y'all gonna give them SAO?

Is it to compete with, say, the Sig 938 size?
Very strange.

Tabbed trigger are inertia drop safeties that happen to be on the trigger not literal “trigger safeties.” This is why you see them on some bolt action rifle triggers as well.

The CSX seems like a solution in search of a problem.

[steve]

I would be more than happy if S&W resurrected the 3913 with a polymer frame.

YES! That and a 3906.

[MandoWookie]

Tabbed trigger are inertia drop safeties that happen to be on the trigger not literal “trigger safeties.” This is why you see them on some bolt action rifle triggers as well.

The CSX seems like a solution in search of a problem.

One of Sigs best selling handguns is the P938, an alloy framed, hammer fired SAO.
The problem is that Smith doesn't have an equivalent product, and their solution has nearly double the capacity and what looks like better ergos.

This particular niche might not be my or your choice, but it definitely has an appeal to some. Similar to them ripping off the KSG.
There is a demand for stupid in the gun market that the supply can't meet.

[Skinner Precision, LLC]

That thing is a Staccato killer if I have ever seen one.

I am assuming that the same design guy who did the CORE system, the new trigger on the M&P 2.0, and the 10mm without conventional iron sights got busy on this project.

George,

While I assume that I am correctly reading sarcasm and disdain in your post, it's the internet and written word so...

I specifically mentioned the staccato C single stack (CCO size) in my comparison as it has none of the downsides associated with 2011 magazines and is a slim 8/9+1, reasonably light weight aluminum frame/polymer grip carry gun, with a well executed thumb safety (+ additional safety) that is easy to AIWB 16+hours a day- on the surface this new offering seems to check the same boxes for those looking for those specific features and not much else does (alloy CCO's excluded)- for everyone else there are plenty of G43x / Sig 365/ Shield plus type options....

[GJM]

George,

While I assume that I am correctly reading sarcasm and disdain in your post, it's the internet and written word so...

I specifically mentioned the staccato C single stack (CCO size) in my comparison as it has none of the downsides associated with 2011 magazines and is a slim 8/9+1, reasonably light weight aluminum frame/polymer grip carry gun, with a well executed thumb safety (+ additional safety) that is easy to AIWB 16+hours a day- on the surface this new offering seems to check the same boxes for those looking for those specific features and not much else does (alloy CCO's excluded)- for everyone else there are plenty of G43x / Sig 365/ Shield plus type options....

Yes, definitely tongue in cheek. Smith and Wesson used to build such gorgeous revolvers and pistols, but lately their newer stuff seems butt ugly and targeting the KelTec buyer demographic.

[RevolverRob]

I'll admit - it's mojo is working on me.

I was just about to literally pull the trigger on a P365XL with manual safety. Because there is no sub-30 ounce thumb safety equipped 9mm.

Springfield sells basically every EMP 9mm they can make. 9mm is neck and neck with .45 in 1911 sales.

3913 is one of my favorite guns.

I am unashamed to admit my interest in this one. Maybe it can unseat the Kahr CW9 as my EDC.

Yes it's ugly. So is a Glock, the 365, and have you seen that ugly ass Hellcat? Whatever.

[JCN]

George,

While I assume that I am correctly reading sarcasm and disdain in your post, it's the internet and written word so...

I specifically mentioned the staccato C single stack (CCO size) in my comparison as it has none of the downsides associated with 2011 magazines and is a slim 8/9+1, reasonably light weight aluminum frame/polymer grip carry gun, with a well executed thumb safety (+ additional safety) that is easy to AIWB 16+hours a day- on the surface this new offering seems to check the same boxes for those looking for those specific features and not much else does (alloy CCO's excluded)- for everyone else there are plenty of G43x / Sig 365/ Shield plus type options....

What about the Wilson Combat SFX (previously EDCX9S)

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Compared to Staccato C

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[45dotACP]

Sliding trigger?

I've long held that the 21st century 1911 is the M&P because the thumb safety, the availability of an extremely good SAO style trigger, hard fit barrels capable of sub 1" accuracy at 25 yards, and the ability to mount an RDS.

With the M&P basically being the 21st century 1911, this seems kinda redundant, but with a sliding trigger that closely mimics a 1911 trigger in a polymer framed gun? I might could be interested if the thumb safety doesn't suck.

Call me a heretic, but hey I'm on record as saying the RRA poly 1911 is the best sub 1k 1911 out there.

I'd like a TDA version mo betta probably

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

[GJM]

I wish they could do some new products like this.

82105

[Elwin]

I’m not sure this is targeting the Sig 938 and the similar guns from other makers. Those are easily a full size class down from a Shield, going from subcompact belt gun to what I’d say is truly a pocketable gun. And accordingly tiny and squirmy.

Again, I think the only gun in this category with a potentially useable manual safety is the Sig 365, specifically the XL.

I also think there’s a market for this. It’s people into Staccatos and other 2011s (or Wilson EDCX9s, or even single stack 1911s) who can’t always carry a gun that, at its smallest, is equal to or a bit bigger than a G19. This gives them essentially a Shield with a reasonably equivalent manual of arms.

I want one. As mentioned upthread I can’t currently have one or make good use of it, but if I were to have something in between my 1911s and the snubby revolver, I wouldn’t want it to be a no-safety striker, which would make for three guns with three totally different manuals of arms. This would solve that problem.

[revchuck38]

When I first read "CSX", I thought of this (https://www.csx.com/).

I'm kinda interested. Someone said something about an "old man's gun", and since I just turned 70 I guess I qualify. Plus I came up on 1911s.

Yeah, it's ugly. If I want to carry a pretty S&W, I'll dig out my 4" nickel M57 no-dash.

[HCM]

One of Sigs best selling handguns is the P938, an alloy framed, hammer fired SAO.
The problem is that Smith doesn't have an equivalent product, and their solution has nearly double the capacity and what looks like better ergos.

This particular niche might not be my or your choice, but it definitely has an appeal to some. Similar to them ripping off the KSG.
There is a demand for stupid in the gun market that the supply can't meet.

True, gun companies exist to make….. money.

[BobM]

When I first read "CSX", I thought of this (https://www.csx.com/).

.

LOL. So did I.

[Lex Luthier]

Am I the only one that saw a bit of the French SACM 1935S pistol, as well as the Beretta M1935 designs?



I'm finding some functional things to like about current S & W auto design (I am not fond of the aesthetic features by any means). I think the Shield-EZ series is rather brilliant in conception.
I wonder where this one ends up going.

And yeah, 3913 or 3913LS. All. Day. Long.

[RevolverRob]

When I first read "CSX", I thought of this (https://www.csx.com/).

I'm kinda interested. Someone said something about an "old man's gun", and since I just turned 70 I guess I qualify. Plus I came up on 1911s.

Yeah, it's ugly. If I want to carry a pretty S&W, I'll dig out my 4" nickel M57 no-dash.

Shame, shame, Rev. You're old enough to know what CSX stands for: https://www.hemmings.com/stories/2016/09/14/a-conversation-with-the-buyer-of-csx2000-the-shelby-cobra-prototype

CSX is the prefix of all serial numbers of Shelby Cobras. Everyone knows that...come on.


I’m not sure this is targeting the Sig 938 and the similar guns from other makers. Those are easily a full size class down from a Shield, going from subcompact belt gun to what I’d say is truly a pocketable gun. And accordingly tiny and squirmy.

Again, I think the only gun in this category with a potentially useable manual safety is the Sig 365, specifically the XL.

I also think there’s a market for this. It’s people into Staccatos and other 2011s (or Wilson EDCX9s, or even single stack 1911s) who can’t always carry a gun that, at its smallest, is equal to or a bit bigger than a G19. This gives them essentially a Shield with a reasonably equivalent manual of arms.

I want one. As mentioned upthread I can’t currently have one or make good use of it, but if I were to have something in between my 1911s and the snubby revolver, I wouldn’t want it to be a no-safety striker, which would make for three guns with three totally different manuals of arms. This would solve that problem.

So...me? It's basically like this: I carry a 1911, 2011, or a DAO gun (J-Frame, LCP 1, Kahr CW9). So only two trigger systems, but I wouldn't mind at all going to a single system. I could go 1911, 2011, CSX, and swap to a P238/Springfield 911/Colt Mustang as my pocket gun.

[awp_101]

Call me a heretic, but hey I'm on record as saying the RRA poly 1911 is the best sub 1k 1911 out there.
Damn it, I forgot I wanted one of those!

[Elwin]

Shame, shame, Rev. You're old enough to know what CSX stands for: https://www.hemmings.com/stories/2016/09/14/a-conversation-with-the-buyer-of-csx2000-the-shelby-cobra-prototype

CSX is the prefix of all serial numbers of Shelby Cobras. Everyone knows that...come on.



So...me? It's basically like this: I carry a 1911, 2011, or a DAO gun (J-Frame, LCP 1, Kahr CW9). So only two trigger systems, but I wouldn't mind at all going to a single system. I could go 1911, 2011, CSX, and swap to a P238/Springfield 911/Colt Mustang as my pocket gun.

That would work. I’d be more tempted to keep revolvers around as the only DAO options and have all autos be SAO. I’m liking the LCR enough I don’t see it going anywhere. That said I’d still like to keep it to two options - safeties on guns that do the slidy thing and DA triggers on guns that do the turny thing. Pick the one that works for what I’m doing and go.

That and I personally don’t like the truly tiny SAOs. My wife had a 238. I hated that thing. Part of my reasoning for getting the LCR is that I just do not love semiautos smaller than a Shield or Walther PPS, but I do need a carry gun that is lighter than those.

[SouthNarc]

Looks like the Star PD....

Man I would totally rock a Star PD.

:::off to Gunbroker:::

[farscott]

I have a sneaking suspicion the trigger safety is to deal with those states or agencies that mandate a drop safety. My other thought is we may see variants without the thumb safety, making the trigger safety a really good idea.

Every new S&W semi-auto release has followed the Glock release model: 1) Suck them in with a gun (G42) that is close, 2) Wait some time and release other versions (G43 and/or MOS variants), 3) play with sizes (G43X and G48), and 4) profit.

[RevolverRob]

That would work. I’d be more tempted to keep revolvers around as the only DAO options and have all autos be SAO. I’m liking the LCR enough I don’t see it going anywhere. That said I’d still like to keep it to two options - safeties on guns that do the slidy thing and DA triggers on guns that do the turny thing. Pick the one that works for what I’m doing and go.

That and I personally don’t like the truly tiny SAOs. My wife had a 238. I hated that thing. Part of my reasoning for getting the LCR is that I just do not love semiautos smaller than a Shield or Walther PPS, but I do need a carry gun that is lighter than those.

I find the LCP and the Kahr to be so close to a good DAO revolver trigger the three of them are interchangeable to me. That said, I tend to agree and prefer revolvers as pocket guns, but I've found the LCP so damn light and concealable it's hard to give up. :eek:

I could see running a 1911 on the night stand, CSX for belt, and an LCP as a pocket gun - could be a very nice combo overall.

[Buckeye63]

Seems to have a fat grip

[TOTS]

So...me? It's basically like this: I carry a 1911, 2011, or a DAO gun (J-Frame, LCP 1, Kahr CW9). So only two trigger systems, but I wouldn't mind at all going to a single system. I could go 1911, 2011, CSX, and swap to a P238/Springfield 911/Colt Mustang as my pocket gun.

Im there, man. I’m all in on the 1911 game with a couple full sizes for range, a SIG P938 for a pocket/ summer gun, and just replaced my winter carry P229 with a M&P Compact with thumb safety (poor man’s 2011) to keep the same manual of arms as the others.

Also, we can hang; as soon as I saw CSX, Shelby immediately came to mind. We were naming my first child Shelby (daughter) up until we saw her for the first time.

[Joe Mac]

So...me? It's basically like this: I carry a 1911, 2011, or a DAO gun (J-Frame, LCP 1, Kahr CW9). So only two trigger systems, but I wouldn't mind at all going to a single system. I could go 1911, 2011, CSX, and swap to a P238/Springfield 911/Colt Mustang as my pocket gun.

My way of thinking, as well. I train a lot more than most, but the standards I set for myself limit me to two handgun systems, in order get what I'd consider adequate training time (striker-fired and DA revolver, in my case).

If I were a SAO guy, and this thing proved as reliable as the Shield, I'd be all over it.

[HCM]

Man I would totally rock a Star PD.

:::off to Gunbroker:::

See 1:18 ;-)


https://youtu.be/woYhefJKuOo?t=37

[Spartan1980]

That thing is a Staccato killer if I have ever seen one.


What about the Wilson Combat SFX (previously EDCX9S)

When I saw the pic these two are the exact guns I thought of. There's a market for this gun clearly and S&W decided to jump in with an offering that won't cost north a 20 Benjamins. It won't knock Staccato or Wilson out because their market is secured, but it'll sell units. I don't know that I'll be buying but I do applaud the offering.

[RevolverRob]

I wish they could do some new products like this.

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They did, literally, just reintroduce the Model 19 Carry Comp this year: https://www.smith-wesson.com/product/model-19-0?sku=13323&preselect=true

Just sayin'...and what's more they are actually available right now for MSRP or even a bit less...so...

--

I looked at that CSX pic again and only thing that frustrates me is - I don't think this thing will be compatible for M&P holsters. But it looks enough like a 1911 I wouldn't be surprised if Officer's sized holsters didn't work (at least in leather).

[MattyD380]

In a world where an EMP costs a grand and may not even work... you're damn right I'm interested in this.

I feel like it combines some elements/features you wouldn't think would be too hard to find on a carry gun:

-Reasonably Compact
-Grip short enough to conceal
-Metal frame (though it doesn't necessarily look like that in the pics)
-Decent capacity
-Hopefully a good SAO-style trigger (but why the dingus?)
-A safety

Sure, you can get that stuff in a 938. Or in an EMP. But, for whatever reason, I would have more faith in Smith & Wesson to give me all of the above in a gun that works well and shoots well. And I'm just not gonna pay what Wilson, Ed Brown or even STI (Staccato?) is asking for their compact 9s. And while there's nothing wrong with M&Ps, something like this--with a (hopefully) metal frame and hammer-fired action--appeals to me more. I think (hope) this could be very successful--I feel like a lot people want a carry gun that's a bit more "special" and has a trigger that's easy shoot well. It seems like mini 1911s often fill that niche... but what if you don't want/like/trust/can't afford a 1911? I feel like they just need to figure out how position it and market it. Just please don't try to say it's a 1911.

Would I prefer DA/SA? Yes. But... SAO with a good safety works for me too. I will now officially retire my interest in the SA-35 (not because I don't want a Hi-Power... but because, apparently, SA can't build them right... yet).

Also... I think it looks neat. I generally think M&Ps are good looking for run-of-the-mill SFA guns. So, I like how they've kinda kept that aesthetic, but made it its own thing.

[Hemiram]

Well, a metal frame is a positive step (If it really has one), but once again, S&W makes another gun I care nothing about. A poly 6906 or 3913 I might really look at, but what appears to sort of be a mini 1911?

Nope. The only thing S&W makes currently that interests me are their AR's and M&P 22's. I own a lot of S&W guns, the newest one was made about 1990 or so.

[psalms144.1]

It might be metal framed, if so, what's the point? It has an M&P style backstrap that appears to be polymer, so why mate that to an alloy frame?

The picture is pretty craptastic, but the thumb safety looks pretty weirdly placed. Looks like it hinges pretty far back on the (excessively, IMHO) long beavertail - looks like a funky placement, but I might be completely off.

Lastly, seriously, S&W, you've made this as ugly as possible - why not add a rail?

[Lost River]

I guess I am going to not follow the same trail as most everyone else, and go my own direction.


First the pic is not one that is flattering to the gun, with the hammer in the position like that, it needs to be set up properly for a decent pic.

When I take a close look at the gun, it appears like it might have some decent ergos.

The size looks appropriate as well.

The tiny safety on the trigger, I am not really going to pay attention to, as so many of us, myself included shoot Glocks and other pistols with similar setups, so while it may not be aesthetically pleasing to the eye, I don't really care, and odds are anyways if I really don't like it, there is a good chance that some outfit is going to come out with an aftermarket replacement fairly quickly anyways if the gun becomes popular, which it likely will if priced appropriately.



1911 style safety, no problem there. I not only like 1911 safeties, but if a gun has a safety, I want it to be set up like a 1911.


(HOLY HELL!!!!!) I just had to take a break! Henry the Happy Hound just farted, He is at my feet and I had to leave the room for a minute!:eek:


OOF!

Where were we..

If one disregards the aesthetically ugly but functional trigger, and sets the gun up properly in condition one, it starts to look substantially better.

Personally, I would like to get my hands on one, and test fire it before I am going to pass judgement.

While I am definitely NOT saying it is a Glock, when Glock came out, literally everyone said they were awful and ugly for years..

Right now, I would like S&W to bring back guns like the 4563 CQB, which has to be one of, if not their finest 3rd gen carry gun ever.




Henry the Happy Hound says Happy New Year!

https://i.imgur.com/dp3Y5Ny.jpg?1

[Rex G]

Well, those who remember the CS9 and CS45, in the Third-Generation line, may well see CSX as a logical model name. CSX indicates the target market. Those who fondly remember the Third-Generation S&W autos have been making plenty of noise, on various forums, lately. S&W may be thinking that DA/SA would not be be a good thing, in a market no longer accustomed to long-stroke DA.

SIG seems to sell plenty of P938 pistols. I know little about the Kimber and other small single-action autos, but I know that they exist.

There may be a significant base of end-line users, for this product.

These are early thoughts.

So thinks my pre-caffeinated brain, this morning. It took me forever to compose this much.

[GJM]

Does anyone have confidence that the S&W of 2021/2022 will get the fine design details right and translate this into a quality manufactured product? “Almost” is the word that I associate with S&W lately. Wish it wasn’t so, but they seem to come up a bit short on almost all recent products, which separates OK products from great products.

[03RN]

Does anyone have confidence that the S&W of 2021/2022 will get the fine design details right and translate this into a quality manufactured product? “Almost” is the word that I associate with S&W lately. Wish it wasn’t so, but they seem to come up a bit short on almost all recent products, which separates OK products from great products.

I don't trust any company to do that.

[gato naranja]

Like some others here, I would have much preferred an "improved/updated" replacement for the 3913 to this offering, but S&W probably - correctly - feels that TDA is weird and scary to younger people buying handguns, and this will sell better.

(Seriously, though- if they are as sharp as they need to be to survive in this game, I suspect that S&W already has a TDA or DAO version of this thing worked out.)

There isn't anything about this pistol that seems deal-breaking to me were I looking for something in this niche, and complaining about this pistol's aesthetics in a world awash with P365s and LCRs would make me even more obtuse than I actually am.

[JAH 3rd]

When I first read "CSX", I thought of this (https://www.csx.com/).

I'm kinda interested. Someone said something about an "old man's gun", and since I just turned 70 I guess I qualify. Plus I came up on 1911s.

Yeah, it's ugly. If I want to carry a pretty S&W, I'll dig out my 4" nickel M57 no-dash.

CSX in these parts does mean railroad company.

[MolonLabe416]

82117

I’d rather have this CSX.

Seriously, a TDA or DAO would be interesting. As others have mentioned, Smith has some legacy products that I’d like to see and I believe would sell. 3913 and 3953 come to mind as does the 315. The 315 with a 3” barrel would be something.

I recently got a 66-8 2 3/4 that I’m liking. Nothing else in their current catalogue interests me.

[JAH 3rd]

Happy New Year Henry!! You look so excited about 2022. My boxer is just excited as you are.

[psalms144.1]

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Since we're doing excited dawgs, Ranger the Ridgeback is saving his enthusiasm for the ball drop, I guess...

[gato naranja]

Since we're doing excited dawgs, Ranger the Ridgeback is saving his enthusiasm for the ball drop, I guess...

The enthusiasm is con-

ta-

gzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

[CHNEAL]

My first thought when seeing it was it was a newer version of the original 39. Illinois State police were rocking them in the day and I bought a surplus one the day I turned 21. That pic brought back a bunch of old fond memories….

[Elwin]

My first thought when seeing it was it was a newer version of the original 39. Illinois State police were rocking them in the day and I bought a surplus one the day I turned 21. That pic brought back a bunch of old fond memories….

When I was a legal intern in rural Illinois (prior to law school - 2015 to 2016) one of the semi retired deputies working as a bailiff at the courthouse was rocking a 39. I don’t know if he was too much of a gun guy but he was happy to talk about the thing when I asked (I didn’t recognize it and could only tell that it looked vaguely like a Hi Power but wasn’t). He clearly liked it and was intentional about keeping it. His fellow near-retiree was carrying the usual Glock.

[WobblyPossum]

I’d be interested in seeing and handling one of these in person. The photo makes the safety look like it hinges way too far back and the grip looks too smooth. It looks like the front and backstraps have the M&P 1.0 lack of texturing and the sides are completely untextured. I don’t know how much of that is just a photo with poor resolution, though.

[hickrev]

Echoing what others have said, I think it’ll sell decently in its niche, as there are plenty of 1911 guys looking for a small, light carry gun with better ergos than a 938 or Mustang and less weight/cost than the Wilson offering.

Sales won’t be on the order of magnitude of a Shield, G43, or 365, but that’s a tall order for any product.

Personally, I’ll just chalk up another disappointment seeing the hammer and “CS” title but then realizing it’s SAO. Oh well.

[fixer]

I can see a niche for this.

Single stack, SAO, metal frame gun, that is in size range of a compact 1911, but actually works, will be popular.

added size for full hand grip. added weight for some recoil damping. Simple controls. easier field stripping than 1911. single stack thin profile. This is between a 938/238 and a compact 1911.

[frozentundra]

Does anyone have confidence that the S&W of 2021/2022 will get the fine design details right and translate this into a quality manufactured product? “Almost” is the word that I associate with S&W lately. Wish it wasn’t so, but they seem to come up a bit short on almost all recent products, which separates OK products from great products.

Considering the design and availability of various optic mounting footprints for M&P and Shield Plus guns, this seems like a safe bet. However......I see some hopeful signs here:

1) I'll guess it uses Shield Plus magazines that have a follower designed specifically for a more realistic 12+1 capacity. If I'm correct about this, Mec Gar is the best manufacturer, and increases economy of scale in the long run for spare magazines. Going down from 13+1 to a realistic 12+1 shows willingness to tell marketing department to STFU.

2) The exposed hammer configuration could take the marketing concept of the EZ-9 to a level that actually delivers on the EZ to rack 9mm from a company that has obviously thought of this as a design/marketing feature.

3) It looks like they may have designed the geometry of the slide/hammer with a provision for a deep optics cut.

4) The safety and slide lock assembly look to be actually recessed into the frame in a novel way. This may provide well thought out structural support for riding the thumb safety hard. At the same time it looks to keep the width down nicely being melted into the frame in that way.

5) The gun is all smooth radii. I don't see one sharp edge or corner-even on the rear sight(LOL). That looks like nice attention to minute detail.

6) Being a metal frame, they only need a different CNC program to change the frame for cutting a rail mount. In polymer, you need a super expensive mold. Also, the rail would be stronger and hold zero better. This could make for very small yet capable light/laser combo possibilities as tech gets better over the next several years. I'm looking at you Streamlight.

7) When I look at this homely little gun, I see a hammer fired Shield Plus with a 1911 trigger. This may not be the worst idea ever.

8) It's super ugly. Perhaps it's even 'function over form' ugly, which is my favorite kind of ugly. I like it.



I'm probably wrong about all of this. S&W is the company that took 15 years to release a G19 sized M&P. However, hope springs eternal. I'm holding out for a 4" optic cut model with a rail. S&W won't let me down :cool: .

[RevolverRob]

Some of y'all would bitch if they gave you a $100 and it wasn't in ones for the strip club. :rolleyes:

Anyways, FrozenTundra makes some good points on the relatively dehorned nature of the beast. In addition, the thumb safety appears not only well positioned, but that it does not lock the slide forward like a BHP/1911. That's a good thing, in my opinion. Because it means you can administratively handle the gun with the safety set, one of the few truly excellent things about the slide-mounted Walther-style safety of the Beretta and 3rd Gen Smiths. This is something I really appreciate on my thumb safety equipped M&P.

Moving on, omission of grip panels is great, in my opinion. I love my 3913LS, but the width front-to-back of the grip frame is large relative to the magazine. By comparison the Kahr CW9 that replaced the 3913 as a carry gun is much slimmer and I'm able to get an extremely firm and repeatably grip on the gun. I'm hoping the slightly narrower (side-to-side) dimensions of the gun, by opting to use the Shield Plus magazines makes it thinner than a M&P, while still having enough gun to hold onto. It looks like that will be the case.

RE: Rail, err...have you guys looked at the beloved Glock 43, 43X, 48, the Sig P365/365X/365XL, the Smith Shield/ShieldPlus, Walther PPS M2, most of the Kahrs, Ruger EC9/LC9/Max-9...Because you know...none of those guns have a rail...

The Shields, Glocks, and Sigs are arguably the most popular guns right now.

[CCT125US]

My doggo is happy with the thread drift.

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[CSW]

Drift....


Dog farts have to be the worst....

Drifting back....

[MattyD380]

Yup, I'm definitely getting more and more excit... ahem, "interested" in this gun.

I always say Smith should bring some kind of a 3rd gen replacement/resurrection/incarnation back to the market. But seeing this, I realize it's not that I want a new 3rd gen, per se--I just want a nicely made, metal-framed carry gun with a crisp trigger that doesn't feel like a plastic commodity. And hopefully doesn't cost an arm and leg.

Obviously, I could buy the SW1911 Pro Series subcompact in 9mm. But it's $1300 - $1400 and potentially has "small 1911 finickiness." I did not have a stellar experience with the EMP I owned a few years ago. If this thing is M&P-reliable and a grand or less... I'll be very interested. And I'll shut up about 3rd generations.

Also...

Who's to say the frame mounted safety lever isn't also a decocker? I still think it's probably SAO--which is fine. But you never know... it might be DA/SA after all.

[Rex G]

I am probably not a candidate to be a CSX buyer, because my nostalgia for my Models 3913 and 3953, which I had, in the Nineties, prompted me to start accumulating replacements, in 2018 or 2019, to the present. I am up to a 3913 TSW, a 908, a 3914 LS, and a 3913 NL, in that order, plus a very-well-preserved upper unit from the stainless version of the 908, plus, assorted spare small parts, used and new.

I had sold my early-Nineties 3913 to an LE friend/colleague, to be a duty pistol for his wife. My 3953 went to live with a dear friend, who was, literally, a starving artist, who really needed a defensive pistol. (She could SHOOT that 3953; a perfect fit for her.)

I had thought that a Kahr K9 would replace the 3953, but, well, not quite.

About two decades later, in 2018/2019, after retiring from LEO-ing, I wanted a long-stroke-DA/SA compact nine, to be a left-handed gun, that might well be carried in a bag, pouch, or other unusual place. By this time, I no longer fully trusted my aging right hand to provide a stable platform for reliable cycling of at least some autoloaders, and that safety/decock lever made a convenient grip assist for running the slide with the gimpy right hand. An apparent local surge of older, pre-owned S&W DA/SA pistols, provided my opportunity. Life is good. :)

Even though I am not going to stand in line, to buy a CSX, I do, very much, “get” it.

[Welder]

CSX in these parts does mean railroad company.

The company that assembles / modifies CSX RR trucks and pickups is near me. I've owned 3 of their ex-company trucks for work trucks, and still own 2 of them (one is a full truck, one is just the bed now). CSX means RR and cheap, well-upfitted surplus trucks to me.

Happy New Year, y'all.

[JHC]

The CSX seems like a solution in search of a problem.

Said Jeff Cooper about the whole class of DA/SA semi autos ;)

[JHC]

George,

While I assume that I am correctly reading sarcasm and disdain in your post, it's the internet and written word so...

I specifically mentioned the staccato C single stack (CCO size) in my comparison as it has none of the downsides associated with 2011 magazines and is a slim 8/9+1, reasonably light weight aluminum frame/polymer grip carry gun, with a well executed thumb safety (+ additional safety) that is easy to AIWB 16+hours a day- on the surface this new offering seems to check the same boxes for those looking for those specific features and not much else does (alloy CCO's excluded)- for everyone else there are plenty of G43x / Sig 365/ Shield plus type options....

I think you make sense and I’d take a hard look at this one if it’s real.

[Lex Luthier]

Said Jeff Cooper about the whole class of DA/SA semi autos ;)

CSX = "Crunchenticker-Series-10"?

I like it.

Now, looking at the hammer position in the one photo upthread, I do think it's possible that it is a DA/SA, or even something like an SFS system.

[MattyD380]

CSX = "Crunchenticker-Series-10"?

I like it.

Now, looking at the hammer position in the one photo upthread, I do think it's possible that it is a DA/SA, or even something like an SFS system.

Yeah, it looks like it’s in some kinda half-cock in one pic.

That said, looking at the trigger, it goes all the way to the back of the trigger guard—so, seems like it’s more likely a “straight back into the frame” kind of a deal… like a 1911. So, as much as I’d love a DA/SA, I’m thinking it’s probably SAO. Though maybe there are DA triggers like that… who knows.

[Stephanie B]

Shame, shame, Rev. You're old enough to know what CSX stands for...

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[Glenn E. Meyer]

My test - will it make me ditch my G26 as my EDC belt gun? NO - would a 3913 with the LS profile and a polymer frame do it. Yes. Even though I hate decockers.

I still regret not buying a 3913L in a store's close out sale for $300 NIB way back when but I was broke! Sigh.

[Elwin]

Another target market I didn’t think of until now and that I don’t think has been specifically mentioned: people who are standardized on or at least heavily invested in the manual safety versions of the main M&P line.

Up until now, the EZs were their only choice for essentially a smaller version of the same thing (and that series is itself pretty new). This isn’t adding the M&P safety to the Shield, but assuming the safety is good, it may be a solution to the same problem for that group of people.

[Polecat]

Saw that coming. A SAO design is probably more simple than DA/SA. P938 is begging for a P365 mag. It won’t be long before others start showing up. Oh, and it’s hadermto blow your stuff off AIWB! I’m in.

[Lester Polfus]

I am going to be an asshole and decide to reserve judgement until the gun is actually released instead of speculating based on a leaked photo.

I would make two observations:

1) the gun world has been awash with compact and subcompact striker fired handguns for quite a while now.
2) Gun makers make their bread by selling new guns to a fairly static number of people who already own guns. To do that they have to convince them the new gun is better, or at least noticeably different than their old guns.

Based on that I am wondering if we will see collusion between the gun industry and gun “journalism” to start selling people on operating systems other than striker fired.

[Lester Polfus]

I am going to engage full curmudgeon mode.

I just brought home a brand new Smith 640 Pro. The barrel appears to be screwed on straight, it locks up as it should and has a decent trigger, but the stamped lettering is fuzzy and of uneven depth. Total amateur hour. Haven’t shot it yet, so hopefully thats not a harbinger of how well it functions. i wish they would unfuck things like that before coming up with the flavor of the month.

[MattyD380]

Also... random thought...

It's cool that this thing is a new design (or at least appears to be). Guns seem like movies, sometimes--everything's just a sequel or an adaptation. Hopefully it turns out well.

[MandoWookie]

I am going to be an asshole and decide to reserve judgement until the gun is actually released instead of speculating based on a leaked photo.

I would make two observations:

1) the gun world has been awash with compact and subcompact striker fired handguns for quite a while now.
2) Gun makers make their bread by selling new guns to a fairly static number of people who already own guns. To do that they have to convince them the new gun is better, or at least noticeably different than their old guns.

Based on that I am wondering if we will see collusion between the gun industry and gun “journalism” to start selling people on operating systems other than striker fired.

In regards to point 2, I think you underestimate the the amount of new buyers out there, and especially the expansion of the CCW market among non-gun people. While the market is awash in micro 9s, most of those are some interchangeable varieties of striker fired guns.
Something easy to shoot with obvious easy to use safety's will garner a lot of sales from this market.

As to collusion to sell a different operating system from striker, isn't that what this board has done? I seem to recall a whole thing about traditional DA/SA and Berettas, and constant bemoaning a lack of DA/SA micro 9s, including in this very thread.
So something different appeals to more than just the low-info buyers too.

[Whirlwind06]

If the slide is easy to rack, it will sell pretty well I expect.
We sell a fair number of the SA micro nines because it's easy to rack and to a lesser degree it has a manual safety. And more then a few times I have thought to myself "were are the 1 & 1/2 stack SA autos?"

The S&W EZ 9 is too big in a lot of peoples minds. The SIG 365, Hellcat etc, is the the form factor that a lot of folks want but not everyone can rack the slide.

[Stephanie B]

82154

I need to read through a thread before commenting or shit, as I would have seen that the same thing (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?51058-New-S-amp-W-CSX&p=1303116&viewfull=1#post1303116) had already been said or posted.

Consider that the first New Year's resolution that I'll break.

[gato naranja]

Based on that I am wondering if we will see collusion between the gun industry and gun “journalism” to start selling people on operating systems other than striker fired.

"If this be collusion, then make the most of it!"

If this new Smith turns out to actually be a direct 3913 replacement, I will welcome it with an open wallet.

[CCT125US]

As I've stated elsewhere, I'm still waiting for HK to put a pic rail on the USP line.

While I may not be the target market for this particular pistol, that won't stop them from selling.

I hope it's just the right gun for someone in need.

[Nephrology]

Neat idea for 1911 people but I won't be buying one. Frankly have more handguns than I need....

[revchuck38]

Neat idea for 1911 people but I won't be buying one. Frankly have more handguns than I need....

Not germane to the conversation...:)

[Nephrology]

Not germane to the conversation...:)

....well I don't have as many handguns as I want :cool:

[CSW]

Not germane to the conversation...:)

The damn Germans got nuthin' to do with it. 🤠

82210

[newyork]

Jermaine? Jackson?

[Bucky]

Neat idea for 1911 people but I won't be buying one. Frankly have more handguns than I need....


....well I don't have as many handguns as I want :cool:

I'm where you're at. That said, something this fugly isn't going to win me over.

[Navin Johnson]

Kimber makes some good looking 1911's......

[Lester Polfus]

Kimber makes some good looking 1911's......

During the oughties, I drank lots of free beer in return for labor trying to unfuck friend's Kimber 1911s. Dunno if that's changed because I no longer hang out with people who shoot Kimber 1911s.

[Navin Johnson]

During the oughties, I drank lots of free beer in return for labor trying to unfuck friend's Kimber 1911s. Dunno if that's changed because I no longer hang out with people who shoot Kimber 1911s.

Hopefully you understood the sarcasm in my post based on judging the looks of a tool.

I'm in the 425/206 and other than big box I can't think of a shop that carries a Kimber 1911.

[RevolverRob]

Am I going crazy? Did 2022 bring a merger of P-F and Smith-Wesson Forum? :rolleyes:

---

Anyways, Shield Plus owners - any significant magazine related issues with the guns? Given the described capacities (10 and 12 rounds) I'd be willing to bet money the CSX is using Shield Plus mags. Also, the longer I've stared at the gun, particularly shape of the trigger guard and dustcover - I can see it potentially using Shield Plus holsters. I kept thinking about the 4" Shield Plus Performance Center gun, as opposed to a standard Shield Plus.

82214

82215

[MattyD380]

And since we're obsessing over new carry guns that aren't out yet...

Anyone hear anything else about that HK we saw the patent for?

[awp_101]

This morning's emails has an ad from a local place announcing they're taking pre-orders with an expected 7-10 day wait before delivery. Best of all, the email has a good pic including the magazines.

82233

The safety and bigger mags might be the only things that it looks like it might do better than my MS Shield 1.0. Having been down the 938 road years ago, I prefer the Shield but I'll freely admit I knew even less back then about good small pistols than I do now.

[MattyD380]

There’s a few video reviews up on YouTube about it already. Just search it. Field strip, another shooting…

It’s smaller than I expected. Looks a lot like a 938–except in terms of capacity.

[Corse]

As I've stated elsewhere, I'm still waiting for HK to put a pic rail on the USP line.

While I may not be the target market for this particular pistol, that won't stop them from selling.

I hope it's just the right gun for someone in need.

You may as well buy the aluminum adapter and the get a holster to fit that. As you know, HK made it perfect the first go around and changes will not be made.

[Spartan1980]

That new pic has me as intrigued as the first one.

The beaver tail doesn’t appear to be integral to the frame. Wondering why that is and how robust it’ll be. And if options will be offered.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MattyD380]

That new pic has me as intrigued as the first one.

The beaver tail doesn’t appear to be integral to the frame. Wondering why that is and how robust it’ll be. And if options will be offered.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hmm. Yeah, I see what you mean.

[BobM]

Vances’s in central Ohio is showing them in stock per their Facebook page if anyone is interested.

[Navin Johnson]

That new pic has me as intrigued as the first one.

The beaver tail doesn’t appear to be integral to the frame. Wondering why that is and how robust it’ll be. And if options will be offered.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Could be part of the "grip zone"?

[oss117]

Video's starting to show up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W41qmbDOhBw

[Navin Johnson]

Same length and height as a Shield with 13 round mag (unloaded)

About the same weight also

The big Q is position and "positivity" of the safety.

[Rex G]

Video's starting to show up:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W41qmbDOhBw

After watching this video, I think these will sell quite well, but I remain glad that I accumulated my single-column-mag, S&W Third-Generation DA/SA pistols, which should see me through the twilight of my pistol-packin’ days.

[TheNewbie]

One places showed the trigger pull at around six pounds. That beats the four pound triggers I’m seeing on some carrying guns.


If the safety is positive and easy to on/off, this is a real contender for someone like me.


An updated 3913 would be nice. Polymer, 12 round mags, better safety/decocker.

[TicTacticalTimmy]

This looks pretty well thought out, and I imagine they will sell well.

If they come out with a true hammer fired DAO variant without a manual safety I will be all over it.

Eta: according to the video this thing is under 18oz, which is really impressive given the aluminum frame.

[Caballoflaco]

If they make one with a 4” barrel and glock 19ish length grip that was optics ready I might be interested. It would probably be a far better candidate for the alternative SA 9mm that folks were wanting the Springfield high power to be.

Interestingly enough it even has a high-powerish style barrel lug.

[Tensaw]

If they make one with a 4” barrel and glock 19ish length grip that was optics ready I might be interested. It would probably be a far better candidate for the alternative SA 9mm that folks were wanting the Springfield high power to be.

Interestingly enough it even has a high-powerish style barrel lug.

[Not aimed at Caba - or anyone at all, just a real question.]. So this looks looks like a new/untested design. What are the chances that this thing will have less bugs than the SA-35 (which, due to the age of the design, IMO, should have had a *flawless* roll out)? Will the market end up shaking out the bugs a la Sig on this? Or do we have more faith in S&W?

[MandoWookie]

[Not aimed at Caba - or anyone at all, just a real question.]. So this looks looks like a new/untested design. What are the chances that this thing will have less bugs than the SA-35 (which, due to the age of the design, IMO, should have had a *flawless* roll out)? Will the market end up shaking out the bugs a la Sig on this? Or do we have more faith in S&W?

The SA35 is a design that's old, but just because FN figured out all the details 70 years ago doesn't mean that it is easy for Springfield to get everything right on what is a clean slate production start up. Or even if they care too, and defer to what is cost effective for their desired price point. (Edit to add: The 1911 is an even older design, how many $600ish offerings of those do you expect to be flawless?)

This is a newish design, but seems to share a bunch of commonalities with other S&W products, isn't anything groundbreaking with any really novel features, and isn't trying to replicate something designed nearly a century ago with different manufacturing methods in mind.
So yeah, it will probably have numerous issues on rollout and for a while after.
Just like Glocks, Sigs, other S&W guns, Ruger, Colt, Springfield, Walther, and every other company out there. They always do.
I dont understand why people keep thinking that's gonna change, or that this particular new product will be any different.

[Polecat]

Looks good in the couple vids out there. One said it is smaller than the shield plus! I am president of the don’t blow your nuts off club AIWB, so I am gonna give it a try. I think others will follow. I was surprised they beat Springfield and SIG to the punch, as I expected a 938 / 911 with 365 / Hellcat mags stuffed in. I like this kinda like a micro 2011!!

[Navin Johnson]

[Not aimed at Caba - or anyone at all, just a real question.]. So this looks looks like a new/untested design. What are the chances that this thing will have less bugs than the SA-35 (which, due to the age of the design, IMO, should have had a *flawless* roll out)? Will the market end up shaking out the bugs a la Sig on this? Or do we have more faith in S&W?

An older design that was with hand fitted parts that would need to be redesigned to not need hand fitted parts versus.

A mass produced design made out of mass produced parts.

P-35s are like 1911s they can run great but it starts at 2K

Just like a new production 10 mm is not going to cycle well with boutique loads as it is designed around factory loadings.

Or how many $400 1911s run great? What makes the p35 any different?

I have about 7,000 rounds through shields and one or two malfunctions I know one of which was a poor grip on my part and I should have readjusted before I pulled the trigger.

2.0 compact in my experience along with the shield plus will pass the 1911 extractor test. The only Glock I have that will do that is a gen 5.

Not saying s&w can't put out something that won't run well but if I had to bet.....

[Caballoflaco]

Double tap deletion

[Caballoflaco]

[Not aimed at Caba - or anyone at all, just a real question.]. So this looks looks like a new/untested design. What are the chances that this thing will have less bugs than the SA-35 (which, due to the age of the design, IMO, should have had a *flawless* roll out)? Will the market end up shaking out the bugs a la Sig on this? Or do we have more faith in S&W?

I’m pretty sure this design will have bugs as well, that’s how it goes these days.

I’m just one of the guys who doen’t think that a high-power is worth the time or effort to modernize. To me it will always be a cool retro-blaster but not a serious use tool.

[Lester Polfus]

[Not aimed at Caba - or anyone at all, just a real question.]. So this looks looks like a new/untested design. What are the chances that this thing will have less bugs than the SA-35 (which, due to the age of the design, IMO, should have had a *flawless* roll out)? Will the market end up shaking out the bugs a la Sig on this? Or do we have more faith in S&W?

It will be interesting to see where this is at in 5 years.

[Joe in PNG]

I'm interested, and suspect an optics ready version will be out 6 months post release.

[Shawnw]

https://www.smga.com/smith-and-wesson/csx-9mm-3125bl-110rd-112rd-48176

Listed for sale but OOS.

[MattyD380]

[Not aimed at Caba - or anyone at all, just a real question.]. So this looks looks like a new/untested design. What are the chances that this thing will have less bugs than the SA-35 (which, due to the age of the design, IMO, should have had a *flawless* roll out)? Will the market end up shaking out the bugs a la Sig on this? Or do we have more faith in S&W?

I don’t know for sure… but… I kinda think this is more of a Sig P938/SA 911/Kimber Micro clone than the M&P-esque aesthetics would suggest. If you look at the barrel, it has the “solid loop” camming lug like all those little pistols… not like an M&P.

CSX
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938
82254

It also—to my eye—seems to match the footprint/proportions of a 938 pretty closely. So, in that sense (if this assessment is correct, anyway) this thing is building on a fairly proven concept. That said, seems like the real difference is the magazine… being a double stack. And it doesn’t look like it uses the “funnel” mag (as in, double stack 2/3s of the way, then single column) like the Shield Plus—looks like a normal double stack mag. And if anything, I’d expect the double stack to feed better.

I’m not saying anything about the above is bad, per se. And I tend think it looks a little more nicely finished and tasteful than a P938. But… like you can really tell from pics. I still would consider grabbing one in a few months… when P220 season is over.

[revchuck38]

https://www.smga.com/smith-and-wesson/csx-9mm-3125bl-110rd-112rd-48176

Listed for sale but OOS.

When you mouse over the picture in that ad, you can see a round silver something behind the thumb safety. It's in the right place to be a detent of some kind. It'd be nice if that's what it is.

MattyD380 - My CZ-75s have the same kind of underlug cutout. I don't think it points to S&W copying anybody, it might just be the best design for that size pistol.

[ECVMatt]

It looks interesting enough. I am not sure if it is for me, but definitely a combination of a few different trends:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W41qmbDOhBw

[MattyD380]

When you mouse over the picture in that ad, you can see a round silver something behind the thumb safety. It's in the right place to be a detent of some kind. It'd be nice if that's what it is.

MattyD380 - My CZ-75s have the same kind of underlug cutout. I don't think it points to S&W copying anybody, it might just be the best design for that size pistol.

Fair point. And either way, it’s not necessarily bad. It’s just following certain similar patterns for similar pistols.

[RevolverRob]

It will be interesting to see where this is at in 5 years.

I'm more interested in 5-months.

Almost bought one for $550 on Gunbroker earlier. But can't convince myself to buy a gun that literally hasn't been officially introduced yet.

[Spartan1980]

I'm more interested in 5-months.

Almost bought one for $550 on Gunbroker earlier. But can't convince myself to buy a gun that literally hasn't been officially introduced yet.

Was that a buy it now? Pretty hard to believe it would have sold for anything close to that in auction. But we do live in strange times and all that. The Shield plus that I want is considerably higher so maybe a good sign on pricing?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[awp_101]

Was that a buy it now? Pretty hard to believe it would have sold for anything close to that in auction. But we do live in strange times and all that. The Shield plus that I want is considerably higher so maybe a good sign on pricing?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

$599.99 is the pre-order price in the email I mentioned yesterday so maybe there's a little bit of realism coming back to the market?

[4RNR]

I have no interest in this gun. Small gun with a safety set so far back doesn't work for me. Same as the Sign or the Colt. Awkward little none existent grip and a safety set in the web of my hand! No thanks.

However.... I don't understand the argument of "solution looking for a problem" or "now one asked for it". Who cares! Seriously? Who gives a shit? Not for you? Cool don't buy it. 99% of the guns out there aren't for me! The more guns there are the more options there are for everyone and that's a good thing! One more person buying a gun! We should be encouraging more variety and more innovation! The more common a firearm is the harder it is to ban. What's easier to go after, the evil AR-15 or the 30-30 that every Grandpa ever had?
Let the market sort it out what and how much is kept, dropped, or scaled back.

Every time a gun comes out someone says I wish it was all steel and SA because plastic strikers have no soul! Well here it is! If no one buys it it will go away. If there's enough interest maybe it will remain but be scaled back.

It's getting to the point where it's either Glock(like) or Sig 365(like).
After all if we had that mentality there would be no Glocks, no mag fed, hell many people didn't think the world needed DA revolvers.

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[RevolverRob]

Was that a buy it now? Pretty hard to believe it would have sold for anything close to that in auction. But we do live in strange times and all that. The Shield plus that I want is considerably higher so maybe a good sign on pricing?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, buy it now. I've seen several places listed at $549-$599. I was surprised myself.

I don't know about sanity returning to the market. I saw some of the first Ruger-Marlin (Ruglins?) 1895s on GB yesterday going for 3k+.

[SCCY Marshal]

How did I miss the polymer-framed, service caliber Cheetah? If these pan out, a used one will be hard to resist.

[MandoWookie]

How did I miss the polymer-framed, service caliber Cheetah? If these pan out, a used one will be hard to resist.

If you are referring to the CSX, it is supposedly alloy framed, with polymer backstraps.

[awp_101]

Just walked away from the counter after holding one. Feels very much like a hammer fired Shield but with a slightly shorter grip.

Does not take Sheld Plus mags (we tried).

Trigger is not a straight back 1911 style, it does pivot and the dingus is flat and unobtrusive.

[Navin Johnson]

Just walked away from the counter after holding one. Feels very much like a hammer fired Shield but with a slightly shorter grip.

Does not take Sheld Plus mags (we tried).

Trigger is not a straight back 1911 style, it does pivot and the dingus is flat and unobtrusive.

Thumb safety positioning?

[SCCY Marshal]

If you are referring to the CSX, it is supposedly alloy framed, with polymer backstraps.

Too ugly for me to aknowledge that.

[MandoWookie]

Too ugly for me to aknowledge that.

??? What does aesthetics have to do with frame material.

[HCM]

I have no interest in this gun. Small gun with a safety set so far back doesn't work for me. Same as the Sign or the Colt. Awkward little none existent grip and a safety set in the web of my hand! No thanks.

However.... I don't understand the argument of "solution looking for a problem" or "now one asked for it". Who cares! Seriously? Who gives a shit? Not for you? Cool don't buy it. 99% of the guns out there aren't for me! The more guns there are the more options there are for everyone and that's a good thing! One more person buying a gun! We should be encouraging more variety and more innovation! The more common a firearm is the harder it is to ban. What's easier to go after, the evil AR-15 or the 30-30 that every Grandpa ever had?
Let the market sort it out what and how much is kept, dropped, or scaled back.

Every time a gun comes out someone says I wish it was all steel and SA because plastic strikers have no soul! Well here it is! If no one buys it it will go away. If there's enough interest maybe it will remain but be scaled back.

It's getting to the point where it's either Glock(like) or Sig 365(like).
After all if we had that mentality there would be no Glocks, no mag fed, hell many people didn't think the world needed DA revolvers.

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I said that because every 9mm or 380 “Mini 1911” from Colt, SIG, Kimber etc has failed to work reliably without extensive modifications and in the brief interludes where they do work they are difficult to shoot to any reasonable time or accuracy standard.

These things wind up getting pocket carried chamber empty and become ballistic lucky rabbits feet that people hope will ward off evil. Many of these people would be better off with a J frame size revolver which is also difficult to shoot but is much more reliable and has administrative handling procedures less likely to result in an extra hole in a casual owner.

Unfortunately a significant chunk of “the market “is people who buy a gun and never shoot it,” followed by the people who go shoot up the walls and ceiling of their local indoor range once a year. However, gun companies exist to make money, not guns and their money is as good as anyone else’s.

[BobLoblaw]

S&W finally fixed that shitty soap bar grip texture with the M&P 2.0 then turn around and make this thing? Add insult to injury and add GRIPZONE on it. What's your problem dude? Can't hold onto it? It's written right fuckin there.

[4RNR]

I said that because every 9mm or 380 “Mini 1911” from Colt, SIG, Kimber etc has failed to work reliably without extensive modifications and in the brief interludes where they do work they are difficult to shoot to any reasonable time or accuracy standard.

These things wind up getting pocket carried chamber empty and become ballistic lucky rabbits feet that people hope will ward off evil. Many of these people would be better off with a J frame size revolver which is also difficult to shoot but is much more reliable and has administrative handling procedures less likely to result in an extra hole in a casual owner.

Unfortunately a significant chunk of “the market “is people who buy a gun and never shoot it,” followed by the people who go shoot up the walls and ceiling of their local indoor range once a year. However, gun companies exist to make money, not guns and their money is as good as anyone else’s.

You have a point but those same people who don't shoot or shoot up the ceiling are going to do that with any gun, doesn't matter if it was asked for or if it's a solution in search of a problem. You can make a 1970 J frame and have the same results, I know, I personally witnessed it!

I have a relative who owns 2 guns, carries one of them but only ever shot 2 other completely different guns and only a few rounds and even that was decades ago! It doesn't matter what the company makes, it can't force anyone to practice and we don't have smart bullets with target locks!

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[MattyD380]

I said that because every 9mm or 380 “Mini 1911” from Colt, SIG, Kimber etc has failed to work reliably without extensive modifications and in the brief interludes where they do work they are difficult to shoot to any reasonable time or accuracy standard.

This gun definitely seems to follow the general pattern of those guns (we’ll say the “Colt Mustang Lineage”). Though, hopefully, it’s better than those. Looking at the extractor, it looks larger than even a 938. So, if that’s any indication, maybe they’ve introduced some new design nuances like that throughout the gun. But… who knows. Maybe it will blow chunks, all the same. But I feel like Smith, generally speaking, is less likely to release guns that have serious issues as some other companies?

Also… about the question no one asked…

Isn’t the “question” (or, a question) always: “Can I have a smaller gun that’s easier to shoot well?”

And I feel like we’ll continue to get potential answers to that same question, for as long as people carry guns.

[HCM]

You have a point but those same people who don't shoot or shoot up the ceiling are going to do that with any gun, doesn't matter if it was asked for or if it's a solution in search of a problem. You can make a 1970 J frame and have the same results, I know, I personally witnessed it!

I have a relative who owns 2 guns, carries one of them but only ever shot 2 other completely different guns and only a few rounds and even that was decades ago! It doesn't matter what the company makes, it can't force anyone to practice and we don't have smart bullets with target locks!

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My point is not about those gun owners. They’re gonns do what they’re gonna do. It’s about the fact that Smith & Wesson is targeting this gun towards low information gun buyers solely to make money, not because it has merit. Just like when they made a clone of the Keltec bull pup shotgun.

[4RNR]

My point is not about those gun owners. They’re gonns do what they’re gonna do. It’s about the fact that Smith & Wesson is targeting this gun towards low information gun buyers solely to make money, not because it has merit. Just like when they made a clone of the Keltec bull pup shotgun.

They copy what's popular solely to make money, of course. Ruger/Keltec, S&W/Glock, S&W/Keltec. These are more like legit copies but then you have 365/everyone else "inspired by" version of a 1.5 stack sub compact. Before that it was Glock 19/everyone else who made a duty size, compact, double stack polymer striker.

For almost 2 decades G19 was the gun to copy. Now it's something else. Everyone jumps on the thing that sells. CZ didn't design a the P10 because it had merit, they already had dozens of other guns. They designed it to take the G19 market solely to make money.

There's very few gun designs for merit. I'd say the last one was Hudson H9 and before that the Sig 365. Both were completely different guns based on ideas on who would use them and how they would fit into the current lineup of handguns. They saw a gap they thought they could fill. The Hudson was cool but ultimately a dead end meanwhile the 365 has become successful and spawned it's own category. But everything else in that category is just there to take advantage of the popularity to make money

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[Polecat]

I think it is timely. I like the return to alum. I like the hammer fired safety aspect. I have been carrying an small SA 911 .380. Loved that thing, just heard SA discontinued ALL their 911’s. While manymore have been asking for a DA/Sa Micro, I think this at least puts the wheels in motion. Imagine a micro DWX- granted we dont even have the compact yet!!, Staccato micro, Walther etc. i think this is a safer design for AIWB? Would love to hear others thoughts.

I will try one, I was a naysayer to MRDS initially, now I am sold. We’ll see.


Dave

[awp_101]

Thumb safety positioning?
More M&P-ish than 1911 and smaller than either. The “pad” is bigger than my Shield 1.0 but not by much. It’s also smooth with no texturing at all. Just handling it at the counter I found it much more awkward than the Shield.

Same for the slide release. It’s larger than the Shield but smooth and even the counter guy said it was awkward to use.

I didn’t think to check out the back strap or beaver tail.

[Chuck Whitlock]

I have no interest in this gun. Small gun with a safety set so far back doesn't work for me. Same as the Sign or the Colt. Awkward little none existent grip and a safety set in the web of my hand! No thanks.

However.... I don't understand the argument of "solution looking for a problem" or "now one asked for it". Who cares! Seriously? Who gives a shit? Not for you? Cool don't buy it. 99% of the guns out there aren't for me! The more guns there are the more options there are for everyone and that's a good thing! One more person buying a gun! We should be encouraging more variety and more innovation! The more common a firearm is the harder it is to ban. What's easier to go after, the evil AR-15 or the 30-30 that every Grandpa ever had?
Let the market sort it out what and how much is kept, dropped, or scaled back.

Every time a gun comes out someone says I wish it was all steel and SA because plastic strikers have no soul! Well here it is! If no one buys it it will go away. If there's enough interest maybe it will remain but be scaled back.

It's getting to the point where it's either Glock(like) or Sig 365(like).
After all if we had that mentality there would be no Glocks, no mag fed, hell many people didn't think the world needed DA revolvers.

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I tend to have the same reaction when folks say they will hold off on buying until there is some aftermarket support. Well, no one is going to tool up to support a gun (or any other product) that doesn't have the sales numbers to justify it. Some potentially good products die on the vine.

[Joe in PNG]

To be honest, there is a market for 9mm hammer fired, 10+ round capacity single action autos that aren't 1911's.

And right now, we pretty much just have Turk P35 clones, or CZ 75 based raceguns.

[Tokarev]

Here's a quick video.

I like how he dry fires it into his palm at about a minute in yet then admonishes the audience to be safety conscious at about four and a half.


https://youtu.be/r7g_e1HWcHo

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[Bergeron]

My point is not about those gun owners. They’re gonns do what they’re gonna do. It’s about the fact that Smith & Wesson is targeting this gun towards low information gun buyers solely to make money, not because it has merit. Just like when they made a clone of the Keltec bull pup shotgun.

Concur.

The problem with designing and targeting a gun towards low information buyers, to make money and without merit, is that it is inevitable that the gun will be unable to perform to the standards of reasonable defensive use and training. Who shows up to class with Kel-Tech shotgun and succeeds? Who will show up to class with the S&W bullpup shotgun and succeed? I think this will end up the same way.

I've stood on a line and attended matches with dudes & babes packing, for example, P365s, that were able to accomplish the necessary tasks. I've had girlfriends and women acquaintances who got interested in carry and/or home defense who ended up with Shields and even a 380EZ, and even without direct experience, I have confidence that those guns are suitable for defensive use, including by low information buyers.


I said that because every 9mm or 380 “Mini 1911” from Colt, SIG, Kimber etc has failed to work reliably without extensive modifications and in the brief interludes where they do work they are difficult to shoot to any reasonable time or accuracy standard.


There's a track record with this design, and it's not good. I like a pistol with a safety, and I like it even better when there's also a hammer or SCD. I put thumb safeties on Glocks, and I'd do that to a 43/433x/48 or carry a safety-P365 or LTT-tuned safety-Hellcat or a XD-E before I'd consider a hot-take on a design that multiple other companies have been unable to make usefully competitive in the defensive pistol market.

[O4L]

But will it come in .30 Super Carry?

[psalms144.1]

Here's a quick video.

I like how he dry fires it into his palm at about a minute in yet then admonishes the audience to be safety conscious at about four and a half.

Sent from my SM-G970U using TapatalkYeah, but he pushed the slide back about 1/4" and mumbled "emptyandsafehere" before he pulled the trigger, so, all is well.

[Daniel Watters]

Judging from the patents, it looks like Brett Curry has been working on this since 2018.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US10948262B2

https://patents.google.com/patent/US10823520B2

[Wonder9]

82351

[Jim Watson]

Handled one at local store. They announced they had some on 1/2/22, 10 received, two left 1/4/22.

I found it smaller than I expected but not small enough for pocket carry.
Controls reasonably accessible.
Trigger pull heavy.
Lots of slick bare aluminum between patches of stippling.

No sale.

[octagon]

Handled one at local store. They announced they had some on 1/2/22, 10 received, two left 1/4/22.

I found it smaller than I expected but not small enough for pocket carry.
Controls reasonably accessible.
Trigger pull heavy.
Lots of slick bare aluminum between patches of stippling.

No sale.

I'm not really interested and don't see where this gun offers anything needed/wanted in the current market but this thing screams for grip tape applied on the side flat areas of the grip. At least it will be easy to apply.

[HeavyDuty]

I’m struggling to understand the market need being met here.

[TOTS]

I’m struggling to understand the market need being met here.

Double-stacking everything. This is a double stack 938. Pocket 1911 in 9mil

[Elwin]

Or if it’s too big for a pocket, it’s a Shield for people who carry 1911s and 2011s.

[MandoWookie]

I'm not really interested and don't see where this gun offers anything needed/wanted in the current market but this thing screams for grip tape applied on the side flat areas of the grip. At least it will be easy to apply.

A big complaint I've seen about current rough textures on both the Glock and M&P lines is complaints about it against skin while carrying, and wearing through or hanging up on clothing.
It's great for control but I can see a desire to keep the sides of the grip clear for those concerns.

One thing that puzzles me, is in one video I watched the guy demonstrate the backstrap feature, and it seems the second one was slimmer, by omitting the 'wings' that wrap forward. Leaving a gap and exposed frame that looks horrible and uncomfortable. Which I do not understand why that would be a feature.

[Navin Johnson]

One could argue that all anybody really needs is a j-frame and a g19 for handguns.

Those companies would likely not still be in business if they only made those products.

An M4:with a GI handguard and a LPV can do 95% of what any other AR can do.....

[4RNR]

I’m struggling to understand the market need being met here.Plastic striker fired guns have no soul and I will not be caught dead with one! - Plenty of people like that. Those are the people you ask why are you still carrying (insert anything from 1900-1985).

Honestly I'm struggling to understand the market for anything G19 size when G19 already exists!

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[MandoWookie]

One could argue that all anybody really needs is a j-frame and a g19 for handguns.

Those companies would likely not still be in business if they only made those products.

An M4:with a GI handguard and a LPV can do 95% of what any other AR can do.....

That has been argued. In fact, that pretty much has been the default advice on this forum( and elsewhere too) for as long as I can recall.
And it is advice I have followed.
My AR doesn't even have an LPVO, just an LPO, and that only because I realized that an Aimpoint dot becomes a constellation with my vision uncorrected. I would prefer my default HD long gun be usable even without my glasses. I can use the irons but then target ID can be an issue.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I saw and handled one yesterday. The thumb safety is poorly located and designed for proper single action defensive pistol use. It's very thin and set back too far for reflexive use. Additionally, the trigger on the one I handled was very heavy...like 8+ pounds heavy. Hard pass...

[RevolverRob]

I saw and handled one yesterday. The thumb safety is poorly located and designed for proper single action defensive pistol use. It's very thin and set back too far for reflexive use.

I don't understand why no one can get this right.

What's so hard about, "Copy the 1911" to understand?

Even H und K got that memo...

H und K! The makers of finely crafted Monkey x Football Orgies such as the P9S decocking system...push the lever, but if you let it go, badda-boom, or squeeze cocking P7s. THOSE GUYS HAVE THE MEMO: "Thumb safety, on tang, wide enough to reliably hit, positive detent, far enough forward thumb falls naturally on it. See: 1911 and P35."

Why can't Smith und Wesson, makers of Nineteen-f'ing-Elevens seem to get the same memo?? For that matter why can't Kimber, Colt, Springfield, and Sig get the same memo? They all make 1911s...

[Elwin]

Why can't Smith und Wesson, makers of Nineteen-f'ing-Elevens seem to get the same memo?? For that matter why can't Kimber, Colt, Springfield, and Sig get the same memo? They all make 1911s...

I wanted to hope that the safety was good despite appearances but that appears to not be the case.

S&W failing at this is especially sad when the M&Ps and the EZ series have hands down some of the very best safeties you can get on a polymer gun.

I can't fathom why the Shield has never been offered with that safety instead of the nubbin, and I can't fathom why they'd put an inferior safety on a new gun that, by design, makes use of the safety mandatory.

[RevolverRob]

I wanted to hope that the safety was good despite appearances but that appears to not be the case.

S&W failing at this is especially sad when the M&Ps and the EZ series have hands down some of the very best safeties you can get on a polymer gun.

I can't fathom why the Shield has never been offered with that safety instead of the nubbin, and I can't fathom why they'd put an inferior safety on a new gun that, by design, makes use of the safety mandatory.

I have to admit it...that dude GJM is a smart guy and correctly called the situation. I wanted him to be wrong...but he usually isn't. Like the guy shoots a lot of guns and thinks about them or something....:eek:

Maybe Smith called it the CSX, because it's going to be a train wreck? :confused:

[Gary1911A1]

I don't understand why no one can get this right.

What's so hard about, "Copy the 1911" to understand?

Even H und K got that memo...

H und K! The makers of finely crafted Monkey x Football Orgies such as the P9S decocking system...push the lever, but if you let it go, badda-boom, or squeeze cocking P7s. THOSE GUYS HAVE THE MEMO: "Thumb safety, on tang, wide enough to reliably hit, positive detent, far enough forward thumb falls naturally on it. See: 1911 and P35."

Why can't Smith und Wesson, makers of Nineteen-f'ing-Elevens seem to get the same memo?? For that matter why can't Kimber, Colt, Springfield, and Sig get the same memo? They all make 1911s...

I think it's because they hire engineers who aren't shooters more than anything and then the sponsored shooters for the company have to say how great the companies products are to keep their sponsorship. There has to be engineers out there who are also shooters. John Browning couldn't of been the only one.

[WobblyPossum]

If the thumb safety isn’t ergonomically designed and the trigger pull is over 8 pounds, it’s not going to compete well against the Sig P938 except on price.

[GJM]

When S&W introduced the M&P 1.0, Glock was having their own troubles, leaving a big opening for a competitive pistol. Back then, there just weren't a lot of great service pistols. I believe it was Vickers who said S&W snatched defeat from the jaws of victory, over like $25 a pistol in manufacturing cost to make an excellent pistol. Of course we know, S&W gave us a combat accurate 9 that shot 6-8 inch 25 yards groups with rack ammo. Frankly, they have screwed up most every product since then, which made it the safe bet to say they would screw up the CSX, too.

[Polecat]

Sootch, James, Outlaw, don’t keep us in the dark! Wonder why they didn’t offer this in .30 Super Carry!

[CSW]

The P938's have certainly climbed in price.
I had a 938 rosewood.
The damn thing was certainly reliable.

[willie]

I thought saw a decocker next to the thumb safety.

[TOTS]

If the thumb safety isn’t ergonomically designed and the trigger pull is over 8 pounds, it’s not going to compete well against the Sig P938 except on price.


The P938's have certainly climbed in price.
I had a 938 rosewood.
The damn thing was certainly reliable.

What do you guys think? Time to start a P938 thread? 🙂 I’m still using mine as a J-frame 1911 and loving it. (🤔still…if it were only 20% larger…)

[Lon]

My first thought when looking at the picture was “it’s a polymer Firestar!”

http://www.star-firearms.com/firearms/guns/firestar/

[kwb377]

Someone say polymer Firestar?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Ultrastar

Ironically, I was perusing Firestars today on GB.

[TheNewbie]

Since the safety apparently sucks, guess it's a pass for me. S&W has good ideas, they just need to put them into one gun.

[mrozowjj]

82351


This is scary accurate. Every time something new comes out I remind myself I have a P365 that has been accurate and reliable and I'm not sure what this offers.

I wish there was a striker control devices for the P365 so I guess having the hammer here is a plus but otherwise... meh.

[Vista461]

My first thought when looking at the picture was “it’s a polymer Firestar!”

http://www.star-firearms.com/firearms/guns/firestar/

The Firestar is better looking. I remember handling them when I worked in the Gander Mountain Gun Warehouse back in 93. Chunky little monkeys. Lol.

[Lon]

The Firestar is better looking. I remember handling them when I worked in the Gander Mountain Gun Warehouse back in 93. Chunky little monkeys. Lol.

I carried one concealed waaaay back in the day. Nice shooting little guns.

[Polecat]

I’m gonna try one, just because I am stubborn. I am hopeful this will open some minds. Again, I envision “dream” of Walther, Cz etc. It will at least make the others ponder it.

[Navin Johnson]

When S&W introduced the M&P 1.0, Glock was having their own troubles, leaving a big opening for a competitive pistol. Back then, there just weren't a lot of great service pistols. I believe it was Vickers who said S&W snatched defeat from the jaws of victory, over like $25 a pistol in manufacturing cost to make an excellent pistol. Of course we know, S&W gave us a combat accurate 9 that shot 6-8 inch 25 yards groups with rack ammo. Frankly, they have screwed up most every product since then, which made it the safe bet to say they would screw up the CSX, too.

Seems like not that long ago you were balls up on shields and cores or something S&W?

Don't get me wrong my 2.0 compact patterned beyond 15 yards and went away.

[GJM]

Seems like not that long ago you were balls up on shields and cores or something S&W?

Don't get me wrong my 2.0 compact patterned beyond 15 yards and went away.

I think the Shield Plus is a great pistol, and besides the 13 round magazine not really taking 13 rounds, it is one of the better S&W new products. The CORE requires an after market barrel and trigger, for my use, but is still a good pistol. Otherwise, there isn't a lot to love about recent S&W new products.

[Tokarev]

Official release:



Hammer-Fired, Metal Frame, High Capacity Micro 9mm

Smith & Wesson[emoji2400] Releases New CSX[emoji769]
Hammer-Fired, Metal Frame, High Capacity Micro 9mm

SPRINGFIELD, Mass., (January 6, 2022) – Smith & Wesson Brands, Inc. (NASDAQ Global Select: SWBI), a leader in firearm manufacturing and design, introduces the launch of a completely new product to their line of pistols, the CSX. The CSX is built on an aluminum alloy frame with interchangeable polymer back straps, providing the user the ability to customize their level of concealment and ergonomic fit. Chambered in 9mm, the CSX holds an impressive 12+1 capacity and comes with an additional 10 round magazine for deeper concealment.

“Since the launch of the M&P Shield[emoji2400] pistol, Smith & Wesson has been invested in the compact concealed carry firearm market. Last year, we modernized and updated the legacy platform by increasing capacity and updating the trigger geometry with the release of the Shield[emoji769] Plus. With the design of the CSX, we started with a fresh canvas; providing the consumer with a completely different option for concealed carry,” said John Myles, Senior Product Manager

The CSX was designed with flexibility in mind and, despite its micro-sized frame, the CSX packs both ambidextrous slide releases and manual safeties. Additionally, the CSX comes with two changeable magazine release buttons providing left-handed shooters the option to convert from the standard right-handed magazine release. While the CSX is packed with many rich new features, it also features some of Smith & Wesson’s classic design characteristics like the optimized 18-degree grip angle and textured front and back straps. The slide has serrations on the front and rear to assist with slide manipulation. The rear serrations are accentuated with a flared design on both sides to make racking the slide even easier. The barrel is 3.1” inches and features a one-in-ten twist rate to optimize accuracy. The CSX pistol is single-action-only and is equipped with a very comfortable flat-faced trigger to provide a crisp, clean, and consistent trigger pull.

MSRP on the new Smith & Wesson CSX is $609.00.




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[Tokarev]

Star Firestar rides again!



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[HeavyDuty]

The Firestar is better looking. I remember handling them when I worked in the Gander Mountain Gun Warehouse back in 93. Chunky little monkeys. Lol.

Were you in Wilmot?

[HeavyDuty]

I’ve been giving the CSX more thought. In some ways I like the basic concept, if not the likely execution based on early reports. I’ve never cared for guns like the P938 because of the single layer safety when cocked and locked - no grip safety. I feel single action autos need that second layer, the CSX addresses it with the trigger safety.

[JHC]

Were you in Wilmot?

I grew up a couple miles from the Wilmot Gander Mountain. We started shopping there was in was a small home sized shop but of course it built out into a big box store. I'd hunt pheasants and small game in the fields and woods directly behind it a lot. That was a great store back in the day - especially early '90s.

[JHC]

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRDu8hnCCW8&t=896s

[GJM]

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRDu8hnCCW8&t=896s

Just watched this video, pretty decent review. Cliff notes:

Like Caleb, James Reeves is pissed they are late to announcements given press embargo's, when leakers always break new releases.

Trigger lightened from 7 to 5.5 ish pounds after 500 rounds. Likes the 12 round mag. Not optics ready. Thumb safety on small side. Some will get hammer bite. He could shoot it better than a Shield Plus.

This pistol cries out for some after market work, trigger and thumb safety, from someone like Novak's. I wonder if this will take more share from the Shield Plus or other brands ?

[MattyD380]

Good review. I dig James’s content. It’s funny and entertaining… but I like how he gets into some of the subjective nuances that gun buyers actually think about. Instead of just the obligatory platitudes.

In any case…

Seems like it could be a solid, reliable pistol. I feel like Smith took the Mustang/938 DNA and spun it into something distinctive enough that it separates itself from that genre of guns. I kinda think it might be a hit. But we’ll see…

[Vista461]

Were you in Wilmot?

Yep. Lived in Burlington at the time.
Back before Gander grew too fast for their own good.
Loved the Outlet store.

[Vista461]

I grew up a couple miles from the Wilmot Gander Mountain. We started shopping there was in was a small home sized shop but of course it built out into a big box store. I'd hunt pheasants and small game in the fields and woods directly behind it a lot. That was a great store back in the day - especially early '90s.

Yeah I think once they closed that store and the Outlet, they started going down hill.

[JHC]

Yep. Lived in Burlington at the time.
Back before Gander grew too fast for their own good.
Loved the Outlet store.

Burlington was the big town for a once a week or bi-weekly big time shopping trip to also pick up a filet-o-fish sandwich. True story.

Back then Gander had a gunsmith that did some nice work. Still have a revo he slicked up for my dad and it's really nice.

[HeavyDuty]

I grew up a couple miles from the Wilmot Gander Mountain. We started shopping there was in was a small home sized shop but of course it built out into a big box store. I'd hunt pheasants and small game in the fields and woods directly behind it a lot. That was a great store back in the day - especially early '90s.

Through the 80s and 90s we would drive up once a month or so, and often go to Wilmot Stage Stop for dinner. Memories…

[HeavyDuty]

Yeah I think once they closed that store and the Outlet, they started going down hill.

Agreed.

[Rex G]

Good to see the TFB review. First, I hope the CSX does well, in the market, and performs well, for folks. Second, it is probably not my cup of tea.

1. The thumb safety appears to be too small. My thumb will naturally interface with a GI-spec safety, on a 1911. My thumb would NOT naturally interface with a Colt Mustang safety, no matter how much I tried, back in the day. An extended safety lever might be a solution, but, it might not.

2. Being a 1911 shooter, that first click just might be mistaken as the reset.

3. I worked, diligently, on the long-stroke DA trigger, in order to shoot duty revolvers well, in the Eighties. I worked, diligently, in the early Nineties, to learn the DA-to-SA transition, and to de-cock, before re-holstering. I have recently been refreshing those DA/SA skills. I would rather that my compact autos be DA/SA, or DAO.

4. I would stand in line, in the rain, to get a re-released Model 3913 or CS9.

[HeavyDuty]

Burlington was the big town for a once a week or bi-weekly big time shopping trip to also pick up a filet-o-fish sandwich. True story.

Back then Gander had a gunsmith that did some nice work. Still have a revo he slicked up for my dad and it's really nice.

On nice summer days we’d follow it up with a long drive, often swinging by Wedl’s for a burger.

[Navin Johnson]

Good to see the TFB review. First, I hope the CSX does well, in the market, and performs well, for folks. Second, it is probably not my cup of tea.

1. The thumb safety appears to be too small. My thumb will naturally interface with a GI-spec safety, on a 1911. My thumb would NOT naturally interface with a Colt Mustang safety, no matter how much I tried, back in the day. An extended safety lever might be a solution, but, it might not.

2. Being a 1911 shooter, that first click just might be mistaken as the reset.

3. I worked, diligently, on the long-stroke DA trigger, in order to shoot duty revolvers well, in the Eighties. I worked, diligently, in the early Nineties, to learn the DA-to-SA transition, and to de-cock, before re-holstering. I have recently been refreshing those DA/SA skills. I would rather that my compact autos be DA/SA, or DAO.

4. I would stand in line, in the rain, to get a re-released Model 3913 or CS9.


The gun community has likely ruined the chance of seeing many more traditional DA guns.

And that is very unfortunate.

[RevolverRob]

This pistol cries out for some after market work, trigger and thumb safety, from someone like Novak's. I wonder if this will take more share from the Shield Plus or other brands ?

Exactly. In particular a wider thumb safety.


I feel like Smith took the Mustang/938 DNA and spun it into something distinctive enough that it separates itself from that genre of guns. I kinda think it might be a hit. But we’ll see…

Indeed, it's quite a bit bigger than a 938, while carrying quite a bit more ammo.

For me the downside is the thumb safety. However, from watching the vid, it clearly has a nice clicky-detent, which is a big positive, in my opinion.

Who can we petition for a wider thumb safety? Cylinder and Slide? Apex Tactical?

Looks like you can silver solder MIM pretty easily...maybe I'll just make my own thumb safety*.










*With blackjack and hookers.

[Dave Williams]

Tried the trigger today on one of these, absolutely horrendous, and I’m far from a trigger snob. I’d never buy one.

[Mark D]

How long until Apex or Gray Guns or a similar outfit offers trigger jobs or drop-in parts?

[Polecat]

Played with one today. Smaller than Shield plus!, overall nice. Looks better in person. Safety was positive snick on and off. Trigger dingus was not really noticeable. I will try one. I think this will start the ball rolling. Dar I say it, but potentially 14 rounds in .30 Super Carry in a truly tiny size-if it works. I was encouraged by the TFB report.

[GJM]

Why no RMSc footprint option?

[Lester Polfus]

Why no RMSc footprint option?

Because they want to sell people a CSX, and then sell them another one when the RMSc footprint version is released?

[RevolverRob]

Why no RMSc footprint option?

They heard that's what you wanted.

For real though, I'm going to wait a bit. The conflicting reports on trigger quality make me nervous.

Besides, I'm saving pennies for an entirely impractical gun (3" Python). :eek:

[TGS]

The conflicting reports on trigger quality make me nervous.

The variance in reports makes me think there's a problem in materials, manufacturing or assembly....and I don't care for paying out of pocket to beta-test products.

[Rex G]

The gun community has likely ruined the chance of seeing many more traditional DA guns.

And that is very unfortunate.

True. Sadly true. That is why I am accumulating well-preserved, pre-owned Third- Generation S&W autos, from the LGS, and searching the evil bay for take-off parts. I scored a complete upper unit, from the stainless version of the 908, from the ‘bay; it appeared like-new.

[Navin Johnson]

True. Sadly true. That is why I am accumulating well-preserved, pre-owned Third- Generation S&W autos, from the LGS, and searching the evil bay for take-off parts. I scored a complete upper unit, from the stainless version of the 908, from the ‘bay; it appeared like-new.

Just before the vid I handled a new DAO 3913 (3953?) blued NYPD overrun (supposedly) at a shop in Lynnwood WA. About $750-800.

I owned 2-3 3913's and 908's in the past but forgot how slim and nice in the hand.

It was my understanding they were not supported by S&W to civilians or I would likely have it as we speak (btw DAO trigger was nice).

Great gat.

[Navin Johnson]

The variance in reports makes me think there's a problem in materials, manufacturing or assembly....and I don't care for paying out of pocket to beta-test products.

Or the trigger needs breaking in?

Different people would likely describe the same trigger differently?

[4RNR]

Just before the vid I handled a new DAO 3913 (3953?) blued NYPD overrun (supposedly) at a shop in Lynnwood WA. About $750-800.

I owned 2-3 3913's and 908's in the past but forgot how slim and nice in the hand.

It was my understanding they were not supported by S&W to civilians or I would likely have it as we speak (btw DAO trigger was nice).

Great gat.

They're not, and hadn't been for a while but the chances of it needing to go back to the mother ship is slim. Majority of guns, even police, see more drawer time than range time.

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

[TGS]

Or the trigger needs breaking in?

Different people would likely describe the same trigger differently?

Feelings/reports about triggers are usually consistent, even if they're new and rough/need to break in.

The inconsistency is the red flag.

[Trukinjp13]

Ugly as hell, but I want it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DMCutter]

I learned to shoot pistols with a million year old 1911 in the Marines in 1982 and it was my T/O sidearm. I think the Beretta rolled out shortly after I got out. I love a good SA trigger but moved away from single stacks when I got my first USPc 40 in 1996. I don't think this is intended for first time gun owners because SA hammer fired guns are akin to manual transmissions, you need to be an aficionado of sorts, IMHO. If they turned it over to the Performance Center and massaged the trigger and made it optics ready I'd probably buy yet another gun I don't need.

[Duelist]

Just before the vid I handled a new DAO 3913 (3953?) blued NYPD overrun (supposedly) at a shop in Lynnwood WA. About $750-800.

I owned 2-3 3913's and 908's in the past but forgot how slim and nice in the hand.

It was my understanding they were not supported by S&W to civilians or I would likely have it as we speak (btw DAO trigger was nice).

Great gat.

Odds of that gun lasting without any support are pretty darn good.

[GJM]

The obvious segment leader is slimline pistols is the 365 series, with more than 1 million sold. Wonder how many copies of the CSX ending up getting sold.

The CSX reminds me of the XD-E. I just went to the Springfield website and see the XD-E has been discontinued.

[HeavyDuty]

The CSX reminds me of the XD-E. I just went to the Springfield website and see the XD-E has been discontinued.

That didn’t take long.

[mmc45414]

This thing is like the Shield, and then the Shield Plus, in that I always wanted a thin gun with a full three finger grip with a 4" barrel. I wanted them to make a Shield with the length of grip frame as it would be with the extended magazine in place. The short barrels makes them less stable inside my belt, and the short grip slows the presentation and makes for a low probability of getting a good grip. The short slide travel means it has to have heavy recoil springs that will not last as long, and few females (those more apt to carry Condition-3) will be able to manipulate it.

I just want a narrow version of the form factor my M&P 2.0 Compact. 4" barrel and a 12 round magazine without the silly sleeve, please.

[Polecat]

The obvious segment leader is slimline pistols is the 365 series, with more than 1 million sold. Wonder how many copies of the CSX ending up getting sold.

The CSX reminds me of the XD-E. I just went to the Springfield website and see the XD-E has been discontinued.

The XDE was thin but clunky, not small, high bore axis and well- stupid. The CSX is a nice small design, was kind of a naysayer till I played with one. Bit more filling grip than 365, shorter slide if you discount the beavertail. Made the Shield seem big!

[gato naranja]

I owned 2-3 3913's and 908's in the past but forgot how slim and nice in the hand.

My last 3913 was slowly battering itself to death, but I really liked everything else about it.

I have no interest in an SAO smaller than an "Officer"-sized 1911, so this CSX is not something I want or need... but if they can do a similar TDA and it comes even close to the 3913, I want a pair of them.

[Corse]

I got a chance to handle one today.
It feels good in the hand. The safety is in a good place for me, but I would like it to be just a little more prominent. The trigger didn’t feel gritty, light take up, but there is a pretty stiff wall before it breaks.

[Navin Johnson]

My guess is that the Shield series and 43x/48 have sold quite a few respectively.

This thing is seemingly fairly new and is is getting shit on by many who likely don't have many rounds through it.

I remember when a gun called a Glock came out and how all the "knowledgable" said no joy.

TDA was an answer looking for a problem.

To each their own.....

Curious what people think the best overall major manufacturer of handguns is?

[CSW]

The CSX reminds me of the XD-E. I just went to the Springfield website and see the XD-E has been discontinued.
Did anyone on this forum ever have any experience with the E version of the XD9?

I'll probably be a heretic for saying this, but I have an XD9 from 2004 when they were first introduced, that runs like a charm.
Like to hear anyone's experience with the E version.
Sorry bout the drift...

[Joe in PNG]

All new firearms tech is 'superfluous', 'useless', 'showy', 'a solution looking for a problem', 'unreliable compared to the old standard' and so on until it becomes popular.

Anything other than a brace of Queen Anne's flintlocks is just roonyism.

[Duelist]

Did anyone on this forum ever have any experience with the E version of the XD9?

I'll probably be a heretic for saying this, but I have an XD9 from 2004 when they were first introduced, that runs like a charm.
Like to hear anyone's experience with the E version.
Sorry bout the drift...

The only experience I had with one was finger banging at a gun counter. Seemed okay, but somewhat clunky compared to the G26 and 3913s I already had, so I didn’t bother with trying to get one.

[Spartan1980]

I've been looking at videos on these and I'm not a buyer yet. But if they grow into a 4" barrel, all metal, hammer fired, SAO "G48'ish thing" I'd pounce all over it. An all metal slimline G19 in other words. It would absolutely rock.

[MandoWookie]

I have a question, if this had come out before the Shield Plus, does anyone think it would be better recieved?

[MattyD380]

Did anyone on this forum ever have any experience with the E version of the XD9?

I'll probably be a heretic for saying this, but I have an XD9 from 2004 when they were first introduced, that runs like a charm.
Like to hear anyone's experience with the E version.
Sorry bout the drift...

You mean the XDe, right?

I didn't like it, personally. I wanted to. Love DA/SA.

For me, the ergos sucked. They chambered 9 and .45 in the same frame, so the grip was deep (front to back) yet extremely thin with flat sides. I found it difficult to get a solid grip, though YMMV. It also pinched my trigger finger--I think, maybe, because they wanted to offset the "deep" grip by moving the trigger break as far back as they could. It was reliable in the handful of mags I put through it. The trigger really didn't stand out, either way.

Some people like them, though. Langdon Tactical even offered a "souped up" for a while.

[UNM1136]

Did anyone on this forum ever have any experience with the E version of the XD9?

I'll probably be a heretic for saying this, but I have an XD9 from 2004 when they were first introduced, that runs like a charm.
Like to hear anyone's experience with the E version.
Sorry bout the drift...

Once bitten, twice shy. I had a rookie that ran an XD from that era. One of the first in the state. He ignored my advice to run a case of ammunition through it before showing up to qualify. He had, near as I could tell ZERO rounds through the gun before he showed up to qual. First string of fire, click instead of bang. Tap-roll-rack and click. There was no armorer support and the gun had to go back to SA for repairs. I have cursed the Croat pistol since then. One of my co-workers was a kinda exotic gun guy; ruined his issue M4 with crap parts, and ran an XD45 without issue. I still can't warm to the gun, but apparently some work.

pat

[HeavyDuty]

Any bets on whether Talon is working on a tape kit for those smooth sides?

[idahojess]

Did anyone on this forum ever have any experience with the E version of the XD9?

I'll probably be a heretic for saying this, but I have an XD9 from 2004 when they were first introduced, that runs like a charm.
Like to hear anyone's experience with the E version.
Sorry bout the drift...

My XD-E had a pretty long (height) grip for its capacity, plus the trigger reach was quite long in double action. You could carry it cocked in single action on-safe, but I never did that.

I've got an injured right hand, so I always like the idea of smaller hammer fired semi-auto guns, since they can be easier to rack and lock back. It's not a matter of technique -- my right hand does not grip the way other folk's do.

The slide on the XDE was very easy to rack. I did like the ability to rack the slide easier, but I never carried it. For me, it was less concealable than my M&P 9c (they call it the subcompact now), because of its grip length. I didn't have any trouble with the 500-700 rounds or so that I put through the XDE.

I put the Langdon trigger package in my XDE, and it made the pull lighter, but it could not alleviate the long reach to the trigger. I sold mine on consignment a few months ago for an okay amount of money.

The EZ series seems large, so I'd like to put my hands on a CSW just to check it out. It does look like it has some features, such as the "ears" on the back, that are intended to make it easier to manipulate.

Julie Golob's video talks about the easier slide manipulation as compared to the Shields:


http://youtu.be/i8hjqiKwC8c

[GJM]

HumbleMarksman


https://youtu.be/Sbjt440URus

[CSW]

The EZ series seems large, so I'd like to put my hands on a CSW just to check it out. It does look like it has some features, such as the "ears" on the back, that are intended to make it easier to manipulate

My Mrs might have a concern about that.... 😂🤣😬

[Lex Luthier]

The EZ series seems large, so I'd like to put my hands on a CSW just to check it out. It does look like it has some features, such as the "ears" on the back, that are intended to make it easier to manipulate.

Julie Golob's video talks about the easier slide manipulation as compared to the Shields:]

Thanks for the link to the Julie Golob video.

Check out the Shield-EZ if you get a chance. Dealing with compromised grip strength, I think the weak point may be the grip safety; it's a *slight* bit stiffer and has a longer travel than a 1910 Browning or S & W Centennial, in my experience.
It has very similar "ears" to the CSX, and they work.

[Navin Johnson]

HumbleMarksman


https://youtu.be/Sbjt440URus

Not sure what "Nope" means but he said he wanted a holster and that he liked the gun.

[Navin Johnson]

Julie Golob is cheesy.....

[Bucky]

Julie Golob is cheesy.....

Really? I’m biased as I know her personally (more so years ago) and I think she’s a genuine sweetheart.

[GJM]

Julie is a S&W employee, and does an excellent job promoting their products. She and TLG go back years. Julie's dad was very active in USPSA. Julie has always been a class act.

[Archer1440]

Not sure what "Nope" means but he said he wanted a holster and that he liked the gun.

He likes it, yes, but it was not unalloyed praise.

He also called it “not ready”, with a lack of attention to detail, with a “lousy” “junk” hard-to-seat (and bulging) 10-round mag, and poorly executed small backstrap module (which I find to be rather bizarre myself).
It was a well-balanced and honest review, both good and bad aspects covered.

In my experience he is a lot more balanced with his reviews than the paid representatives tend to put out.

[Navin Johnson]

Julie Golob is cheesy.....

Allow I to clarify:

Julie is an outstanding spokesman and role model for the firearm industry. The company she works for (you know the one that misses the mark on everything they make) pays her (hopefully very well) to appeal to I'm not sure whom. So my criticism for the cheesy infomercials should be on the parent company not on the paid representative.

[Navin Johnson]

He likes it, yes, but it was not unalloyed praise.

He also called it “not ready”, with a lack of attention to detail, with a “lousy” “junk” hard-to-seat (and bulging) 10-round mag, and poorly executed small backstrap module (which I find to be rather bizarre myself).
It was a well-balanced and honest review, both good and bad aspects covered.

In my experience he is a lot more balanced with his reviews than the paid representatives tend to put out.

Yes I think his videos are good.

When one sees "nope" across a review to me it implies a negative experience. While it was obviously not all positive it was not an overall negative response or experience.

There seems to be a lot of controversy with this particular firearm....... As I've posted before by many people who've never touched it..... So the title "nope". Does not match the content..... I see that as a clickbait......YMMV

[revchuck38]

There seems to be a lot of controversy with this particular firearm... by many people who've never touched it.....

True, but the controversy is nowhere near as bad as when the M&Ps were introduced.

[JHC]

Julie is a S&W employee, and does an excellent job promoting their products. She and TLG go back years. Julie's dad was very active in USPSA. Julie has always been a class act.

From the standpoint of the manufacturer producing a product info vid her's was quite exceptional for calling out a number or nuances beyond lowest common denominator stuff. A real shooter's observations.

[Noah]

Yes I think his videos are good.

When one sees "nope" across a review to me it implies a negative experience. While it was obviously not all positive it was not an overall negative response or experience.

There seems to be a lot of controversy with this particular firearm....... As I've posted before by many people who've never touched it..... So the title "nope". Does not match the content..... I see that as a clickbait......YMMV

The "Nope" is a response to the title of the video which is "Does the S&W CSX change the Micro Compact game?".

[Navin Johnson]

The "Nope" is a response to the title of the video which is "Does the S&W CSX change the Micro Compact game?".

Correct

But as a title it implies an overall negative view.

Kind of a thumbs up or thumbs down.

[GJM]

Here is a general thought on contributing to a forum. If 75 percent of my posts are sarcastic, pointing out a wrong or perceived inconsistency by someone else, or require a clarification, I ought to do something to change that.

[HeavyDuty]

Here is a general thought on contributing to a forum. If 75 percent of my posts are sarcastic...

Hey, blues !

(Ducks)

Kidding, kidding…

[psalms144.1]

Here is a general thought on contributing to a forum. If 75 percent of my posts are sarcastic, pointing out a wrong or perceived inconsistency by someone else, or require a clarification, I ought to do something to change that.Dayum! Covid made George MEAN! Didn't know that was a symptom...

[Polecat]

Shot and love it! Mild recoil,accurate @ 15 yards, trigger is not a problem while shooting it live! Overall, I really like this. Room for improvement, needs all black U notch rear, ameriglo yellow or orange front.

Honestly, I don’t think there is enough real estate for an optic, maybe?

Hope others follow this trend. The grip is nice, not too small, allows good control especially with the 12 round.