GJM and DPP

[YVK]

My good buddy GJM just called me, sounding slightly disgusted. He had a 600 round training session and broke another Deltapoint Pro. Dot's dead. He is driving home as this post is coming up so at the moment he is totally defenseless against this merciless trolling.

By my count, this is the sixth DPP that he broke. He keeps using them because there is nothing better for Carry Optics and he can afford a dozen of them, so that's not the question. The question is: why do you all think he's so toxic to these optics?
DPP is not perfect but nobody has had them fail at this rate.

Have at this, see what we can come with. I have my theory. Posted in the "General" to allow both serious discussion and some levity. Maybe even some nudity.

[Joe in PNG]

He's using the gear- that's the problem. Instead, he should be leaving his stuff in the safe, and spend his time arguing teh superiories of his current choices like everyone else.

[GJM]

You sound like the old YVK. Remember, today you got the news that your son is finally out of medical school and off your payroll, so you have money for more than one Delta Point Pro of your own.

[El Cid]

The question is: why do you all think he's so toxic to these optics?
DPP is not perfect but nobody has had them fail at this rate.

Have at this, see what we can come with. I have my theory. Posted in the "General" to allow both serious discussion and some levity. Maybe even some nudity.

Because he uses them. Too many shooting related products take advantage of the fact that most shooters put a box or two through a gun and declare it ready for real life. True vetting is a rare and wonderful thing.

[schüler]

Acute Enel Syndrome.

He knows a good blow will disable the [PPQ/DPP/whatever] but dammit it works so well all the other times...

[LSP552]

My sweat is very acidic. I look at a blued gun and it will rust. I’m going with the theory that he emits a corrosive magnetic field that is destroying the electronics.

[GJM]

My sweat is very acidic. I look at a blued gun and it will rust. I’m going with the theory that he emits a corrosive magnetic field that is destroying the electronics.

Maybe it’s really a GEN five trigger problem that has metastasized up through the optic plate to the Delta Point Pro.

[YVK]

I've tolerance exactly for one DPP, the one that I have now. As I said in the 19X thread, if it dies, I am getting an FDE RMR. I'll suck at CO anyway, might as well no worry about my blood pressure going up on account of optic going down every week.

Don't matter if Jr. is done with school, if he is off my back, or if he suddenly decided to pay me back for Harvard. All I am trying to do here is to get a p-f collective mind to deal with this pervasive problem for you. I mean, if SFOD-D [allegedly] used DPP, there has to be an answer.

[schüler]

My sweat is very acidic. I look at a blued gun and it will rust. I’m going with the theory that he emits a corrosive magnetic field that is destroying the electronics.I think you're on to something. Dot isn't broken, just hiding. Been stared down for the umpteenth time.

[JSGlock34]

Whatever he has, it may be contagious. I've just broken my third RMR in as many weeks.

I'm going to bleach this laptop after this post. Can't be too careful.

[Joe in PNG]

Could be an evil tech spirit in the safe- maybe en exorcism is in order?

[LSP552]

Whatever he has, it may be contagious. I've just broken my third RMR in as many weeks.

I'm going to bleach this laptop after this post. Can't be too careful.

If it’s on a Glock, like George’s, we may be on to something.......

[GJM]

Whatever he has, it may be contagious. I've just broken my third RMR in as many weeks.

I'm going to bleach this laptop after this post. Can't be too careful.

At this point, my eyes and iron sights get along well enough that slide mounted pistol optics are strictly for sport.

[JSGlock34]

My goal was to start Carry Optics this season, but I haven’t been able to make it through a zeroing session with my ATEi’d G17.5...my RM06 Type 2’s nice crisp dot suddenly became a squashed bug while zeroing...so it went back to Trijicon and the backup (a type one RM06) went on the gun...that turned on and off under recoil so it went back...the now repaired Type 2 looked good and went back on...but had the same failure so it’s going back to Trijicon...I’ve now (re) installed the backup...

The older RM06 on my Roland Special has been going strong for a while now, but I don’t want to leave it too close to these other RMRs lest it get infected...

[olstyn]

GJM, I'm curious to know what your mean rounds between failures of DPPs has been; do you know your approximate total round count through DPP-equipped guns and an approximate total number of failures you've experienced?

[YVK]

Damn. Internet sez RMR type 2 is da shit.

[GJM]

GJM, I'm curious to know what your mean rounds between failures of DPPs has been; do you know your approximate total round count through DPP-equipped guns and an approximate total number of failures you've experienced?

Unable to calculate that, as I haven’t tracked that carefully, but I think this will be the sixth DPP unit I have returned since September.

[GJM]

The RMR is a sub-standard pistol gaming optic because the window is so small.

[JAD]

The RMR is a sub-standard pistol gaming optic because the window is so small.

How is a big window with no dot in it advantageous?

Has Leopold post mortemed any of your sights yet? If it’s a battery or connector related failure I might be able to add a thought.

Is there a Leopold guy on this forum?

Hate to see you getting repeatedly DPd by the DPs.

[Default.mp3]

TomV has allegedly seen the results of some serious, actual testing for some of these optics discussed. Don't remember the exact numbers, but IIRC, the DPPs were hitting double digits no problem, while the Type 2s exhibited no issues. Again, this is off of recollection, so I could be totally off.

[TomV]

During MHS testing a lot of DP Pros and RMR1s were shot by a lot of people. Without going into details the RMR1 was inconsistent and would eventually flicker. DP Pros would routinely go over 20k. Feedback was provided to Trijicon and then we got RMR2 that shot with good results aside from one DOA optic. I chalk that up for shit happens as they both have decent warranties.

All that testing really showed the advantages of the dot and now there’s a lot of custom milled slides floating around. Trijicon has way better adjustments, lower profile body, and a near bombproof housing while Leupold has superior low light optics (not NVG), big window, and top load battery.

It’s obviously possible someone’s QC is slipping but if your gun is routinely eating optics at that low a round count I would seriously question the mounting solution.

[GJM]

TomV has allegedly seen the results of some serious, actual testing for some of these optics discussed. Don't remember the exact numbers, but IIRC, the DPPs were hitting double digits no problem, while the Type 2s exhibited no issues. Again, this is off of recollection, so I could be totally off.

I would be interested in this “serious, actual testing” of the DPP. Of course, owning nine DPP units, shooting them on CZ, Glock and Walther pistols for some ten of thousands of rounds in two years of USPSA Carry Optics, and having six go back to Leupold since September is meaningful data to me. Of my six, two were complete dot failures that happened while shooting, one was for a wandering zero, and the balance were for failure of the sensor that is supposed to wake the DPP up.

[GJM]

It’s obviously possible someone’s QC is slipping but if your gun is routinely eating optics at that low a round count I would seriously question the mounting solution.

My DPP units have been on direct milled CZ slides, Walther Q5 pistols, and Gen 4 MOS 19/17/34 and Gen 5 MOS 34 pistols.

[WOLFIE]

I would like to see a fiber optic / tritium combination powered optic for pistols.

[Dagga Boy]

My Aimpoint Micro broke on my G-17.....

Just kidding.

[GJM]

The DPP sensor problems (the dot not waking up) seemed to show up after a year or so, making me wonder if there is some age related failure to that particular component. Friends shooting them on open guns have been reporting the same issue. Now, we just turn the DPP off after each stage, and back on at make ready, and I wouldn’t return a DPP to Leupold for that failure since I have accepted that I wouldn’t carry them on a bet.

I went to Duracell 2032 batteries, after reading the Sage report, but my battery life is still some weeks, but certainly less than a month at my usage rate.

[RevolverRob]

George, did you notice any differences, at all, in terms of reliability with the direct milled CZ vs. the mounting-plate systems of the Q5/MOS?

Your friends running open guns, are they slide mounted or static mounted?

This DPP failure rate is making a C-More look like a more viable option...

[RevolverRob]

I would like to see a fiber optic / tritium combination powered optic for pistols.

Dual-Illuminated RMR.

It sucks. The dot washes out - constantly. Stand in the shade and aim in the light? Dot washed out. Turn on a weapon light? Dot is washed out. Turn on the overhead lights and they are at an angle? Dot is washed out.

They work great, in 1) Complete Darkness (except you can't see the target). 2) Bright Sunshine. 3) Holding a flashlight over the fiber-optic light collector. 4) In the garbage.

[GJM]

George, did you notice any differences, at all, in terms of reliability with the direct milled CZ vs. the mounting-plate systems of the Q5/MOS?

Your friends running open guns, are they slide mounted or static mounted?

This DPP failure rate is making a C-More look like a more viable option...

I experienced the units not waking up on Walther and Glock pistols. Haven’t shot the CZ pistols in a year. I now consider not waking up to be standard, and don’t sweat that. The two where the dots went out (permanently) in recoil were a Gen 4 and Gen 5 MOS. The zero wandering was on a Gen 5 MOS, with everything loctited securely.

My friends using the DPP on open guns are frame mounted.

The C-More RTS mounting plate for the MOS did not hold the optic securely.

I plan to try the new Holosun.

[RevolverRob]

I experienced the units not waking up on Walther and Glock pistols. Haven’t shot the CZ pistols in a year. I now consider not waking up to be standard, and don’t sweat that. The two where the dots went out (permanently) in recoil were a Gen 4 and Gen 5 MOS. The zero wandering was on a Gen 5 MOS, with everything loctited securely.

My friends using the DPP on open guns are frame mounted.

The C-More RTS mounting plate for the MOS did not hold the optic securely.

I plan to try the new Holosun.

I'm wondering if MOS platform is part of the issue?

When you have time, I'd be curious to see if the CZ mounted dot has issues. You've got tons of a time man, just go fire 10,000 rounds through the CZ and see what happens...:eek: ;)

___

I'll be interested on your Holosun review(s). How's the Shield RMS working for you? Like you, I just don't care much for glass and dot in the RMR, but it seems that's the one that has the reliability factor going for it.

[45dotACP]

It's probably lupus...

In all seriousness, I have come to the conclusion that a dot on a duty or carry weapon should probably rhyme with Shmamepoint and even then there are some situations that aren't totally appropriate.

I've found little benefit to a RDS in my experience so far...however, I haven't tried shooting a match in carry optics yet.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[YVK]

During MHS testing a lot of DP Pros and RMR1s were shot by a lot of people. Without going into details the RMR1 was inconsistent and would eventually flicker. DP Pros would routinely go over 20k. Feedback was provided to Trijicon and then we got RMR2 that shot with good results aside from one DOA optic. I chalk that up for shit happens as they both have decent warranties.

All that testing really showed the advantages of the dot and now there’s a lot of custom milled slides floating around. Trijicon has way better adjustments, lower profile body, and a near bombproof housing while Leupold has superior low light optics (not NVG), big window, and top load battery.

That's a cool info, thank you.

[HCM]

I would like to see a fiber optic / tritium combination powered optic for pistols.

Trijicon already makes 6 dual illuminated models.

[HCM]

My Aimpoint Micro broke on my G-17.....

Just kidding.

The power / intensity aajustmemt does break on them when mounted on pistol slides. I seen’dnt it.

[Default.mp3]

The power / intensity aajustmemt does break on them when mounted on pistol slides. I seen’dnt it.Time to try a CompM5, then.

[TheNewbie]

I should read titles more carefully. I came here expecting to see a diamond cutter reference.

[TomV]

The DPP sensor problems (the dot not waking up) seemed to show up after a year or so, making me wonder if there is some age related failure to that particular component. Friends shooting them on open guns have been reporting the same issue. Now, we just turn the DPP off after each stage, and back on at make ready, and I wouldn’t return a DPP to Leupold for that failure since I have accepted that I wouldn’t carry them on a bet.

I went to Duracell 2032 batteries, after reading the Sage report, but my battery life is still some weeks, but certainly less than a month at my usage rate.

I’ve never experienced the dot waking up issue you speak of. That said we can usually get high round counts in a matter of weeks. We did see early battery failures on the DP Pros likely due to damage under recoil. Duracell’s live markably longer than Energizer and Panasonic during this experience.

My personal 509s have been milled for about a year now so I will keep a look out for the wake up issue but I change my batteries once every 4 months just to be safe. I can’t speak much for other mounting systems other than pistol recoil is real and the laws of physics always apply. FN has a lot of experience working with optics companies regarding “recoil” thanks to everyone’s favorite 7.62 battle rifle.

[Hambo]

Fuck all of y'all and your fancy first world carry optics problems. I can't mount one on a 92G. Fuck, I can't even change the iron sights. :(

[GJM]

I’ve never experienced the dot waking up issue you speak of. That said we can usually get high round counts in a matter of weeks. We did see early battery failures on the DP Pros likely due to damage under recoil. Duracell’s live markably longer than Energizer and Panasonic during this experience.

My personal 509s have been milled for about a year now so I will keep a look out for the wake up issue but I change my batteries once every 4 months just to be safe. I can’t speak much for other mounting systems other than pistol recoil is real and the laws of physics always apply. FN has a lot of experience working with optics companies regarding “recoil” thanks to everyone’s favorite 7.62 battle rifle.

I think I can reconcile my experience with what you experienced.

It is quite possible the two outright failures I experienced were 20,000 + round optics. The failure to wake up issue didn’t materialize for a year or more, and has now effected so many of my units (and reported by friends on their units) that it seems a product wide issue related to age and how durable or long lasting that sensor is. As far as the one unit I had losing zero, that could happen to any optic, and has been an exception with the DPP in my experience. On battery life, I exclusively use Duracell 2032 batteries, but am only at about two weeks, with a typical use of two to three hours every day, and a match or two on the weekend. I haven’t tracked it, but it is possible that different individual DPP units are going through batteries faster than others.

[Tom Duffy]

The RMR is a sub-standard pistol gaming optic because the window is so small.

Perfect for me since I'm a substandard gamer.

[LSP552]

Fuck all of y'all and your fancy first world carry optics problems. I can't mount one on a 92G. Fuck, I can't even change the iron sights. :(

Those iron sights aren’t going to break and you likely won’t lose the dot either..;)

[El Cid]

My Aimpoint Micro broke on my G-17.....

Just kidding.

Lol! Been using an Aimpoint since before Chewy and I broke the record for the Kessel run in the Falcon. Still works like a champ. ;)

https://i.imgur.com/kNL0nrW_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

[TomV]

A bit off topic but since we are taking dots I highly recommend you take a red dot pistol class before passing judgement on the idea of a MRD pistol. The feedback you get is nearly guaranteed to make you a better shooter even if you go back to irons later.

Most people just don’t put in enough good time/reps to get passed the learning curve but I liken it to shooting SHO and WHO, just because you suck doesn’t mean there’s not benefits to uncover there. Red Dot classes from someone like Fisher, Cowan, or Jedlinski will most likely get you far enough up the learning curve where you will see the light. I probably learned more in a couple days of instruction than I did in months of self taught “practice”.

[EVP]

Defoor has mentioned he has seen better reliability from DPP then RMRs that have come through his classes. I always thought the consensus was that RMRs are more robust.

I was close to going down the RDS road but personally don’t think the tech has gotten to the point we’re the plung worth it.

[GJM]

Defoor has mentioned he has seen better reliability from DPP then RMRs that have come through his classes. I always thought the consensus was that RMRs are more robust.

I was close to going down the RDS road but personally don’t think the tech has gotten to the point we’re the plung worth it.

I think it depends on both on how you define "reliability," and the length of the evaluation period.

[RevolverRob]

I think it depends on both on how you define "reliability," and the length of the evaluation period.

I'm pretty simple in that realm.

It works, until the battery dies. Then I replace the battery and it works again. It works in the rain, in the dry, in the light, in the dark, and can be carried concealed on a person, without issue from sweat/moisture/dirt. It will break from recoil and use eventually. My "guesstimate" for reliability is - before I break it, I should replace 2-5 recoil springs and go through 2-sets of magazines. In short, I want the optic to run for roughly the half-life of decent iron sights (how many of you have shot the sights off of a gun? Half of that for a more fragile optic). And I mean, before any failure occurs, besides it not working, because I need to replace the batteries.

As for battery life, I think it's an issue - if you're running an optic that has to be removed to change the battery. In that case, battery life should be measured in months-to-years. If the optic has a battery tray/top load battery - then battery life is a non-issue, as long as it is measured in days/weeks not hours. Buy batteries in bulk from Amazon and call it a day. Folks that are complaining about battery prices/replacement. Just budget it into your cost of the optic.

To my mind this is where the RMR gives up ground to the DPP and other optics. While battery life is good, re-zeroing with battery change isn't. An RMR with a battery tray/top load battery would be ideal.

[ranger]

I think I can reconcile my experience with what you experienced.

It is quite possible the two outright failures I experienced were 20,000 + round optics. The failure to wake up issue didn’t materialize for a year or more, and has now effected so many of my units (and reported by friends on their units) that it seems a product wide issue related to age and how durable or long lasting that sensor is. As far as the one unit I had losing zero, that could happen to any optic, and has been an exception with the DPP in my experience. On battery life, I exclusively use Duracell 2032 batteries, but am only at about two weeks, with a typical use of two to three hours every day, and a match or two on the weekend. I haven’t tracked it, but it is possible that different individual DPP units are going through batteries faster than others.

I appreciate that this is shooting oriented forum and that GJM is in particular a high volume shooter. 20,000+ rounds through a RDS is a lot of rounds and I suspect that 99.99% of RDS manufactured will never see that amount of wear and tear (or the Glocks they were mounted on for that matter).

[Savage Hands]

I think I can reconcile my experience with what you experienced.

It is quite possible the two outright failures I experienced were 20,000 + round optics. The failure to wake up issue didn’t materialize for a year or more, and has now effected so many of my units (and reported by friends on their units) that it seems a product wide issue related to age and how durable or long lasting that sensor is. As far as the one unit I had losing zero, that could happen to any optic, and has been an exception with the DPP in my experience. On battery life, I exclusively use Duracell 2032 batteries, but am only at about two weeks, with a typical use of two to three hours every day, and a match or two on the weekend. I haven’t tracked it, but it is possible that different individual DPP units are going through batteries faster than others.


George, How are the DPP's working for you currently?

[GJM]

George, How are the DPP's working for you currently?

I shoot the Pro only infrequently these days as it has been surpassed by other options for gaming and carry. With the change in the board design, I believe the current Pros are very reliable. I think my wife and I broke 31 Pros along the way, but none since the design change, over many thousands of rounds.