Do Glock pistols shoot left, and if so, why

[GJM]

Mr_White and I had the start of a detailed discussion of this topic, and we agreed to take it on-line with a new thread:

Understanding that individual firearms have variability, do Glock pistols as a platform, shoot left more so than other platforms, for reasons related to design, manufacturing tolerances, the human interface, or other reasons?

Discuss.

[dgg9]

I assume you mean "left, given a right handed shooter." I don't think they shoot "left" as a class, but even though I carry them, they shoot "left" for me because I don't usually get quite enough finger onto the trigger. Other pistols, with a different LOP for me, such as 92FS, I don't pull left (i.e., in). I know Glocks don't shoot "left" because when I shoot them left handed, they shoot neutral or "right."

[MVS]

I am a lefty. Glocks do not shoot left for me. Using an assortment of other pistols such as a CZ P07 and HK VP9 to compare them to, they don't shoot to the right either.

[TCinVA]

Human interface, largely trigger-finger making contact with the frame in my case. I have big hands and a high natural grip which puts my trigger finger at perhaps a more severe angle than most. If I adopt the usual ideal trigger finger placement on a Glock, the top of my trigger finger makes contact with the frame. When working the trigger at speed I get a little bit of leftward push. Working against a dead trigger as instructed by Bob Vogel at his class a couple of years ago showed me that I was indeed pushing the gun left right at the last bit of trigger movement. I thought my sights were off and was about to break out my sight pusher when that drill came up.

To get around that I actually have to place the very tip of my trigger finger right on the Glock's trigger button instead of using the usual placement. I also have to make contact with the trigger as low down on it as possible so that the bottom edge of my trigger finger actually drags along the trigger guard as I pull through the trigger's movement.

The combination of doing all that prevents any lateral push during the trigger pull...but I don't always achieve all of that if I'm doing something at speed.

It's not something I really noticed prior to working against a dead trigger. I had plenty of training and experience prior to that and it was invisible to me until that specific drill, which caused me to do a deep dive on exactly why it was happening in my hands. I'm not the smartest guy in the room but I'm not the dumbest either...I'm betting that if I could miss such a detail for such a long time that others can as well.

I do not experience this phenomenon with any other semi-auto I have ever owned or used.

[LtDave]

I shoot left handed and for a long time, autos all shot to the right for me. I set all my rear sights a little left. Eventually, I figured out trigger control and now they all shoot straight with the sights dead center. Now if I could still see...

[fixer]

Polymer guns have always had a decided leftward bias. P30, PX4, 2022, M&P,and Glock I have shot them all and all had a left bias. The Glock had the most leftward bias. I have drifted sights to the right all the way to the right ledge and was able to get the Glock to group about as leftward as the other polymer pistols. In my experience this is a possible sight issue with the pistol, just based on my experience. It could be aplatform clash with my hand too though.

Metal guns that I've shot extensively (92, 1911) do not have a hint of leftward bias. The 92 in particular, I have several copies from different years and they have all been the exactly the same in sighting.

[dgg9]

Fixer, when you shoot left handed, what is observed?

[5pins]

All Glocks have a tendency to shoot a little left for me. I don’t see it in other pistols just Glocks.

[dgg9]

TCinVA: I like the idea. I think it's more feasible for me than retraining myself to force more finger into the trigger guard.

[Clobbersaurus]

I've been shooting Beretta's almost exclusively for the last year. At a course a few months ago, I decided to spend a few hours with my trusty Gen 3 G17.

I shot it well, but to my surprise, I was shooting it a little left. I hadn't had that issue when I was exclusively shooting Glocks. My self assessment was that I learned to bury my trigger finger a little deeper to address the DA/SA trigger of my Beretta. I didn't take nearly as much trigger when I shot my Glock, and the Glock did not like my new trigger finger position. Once I recognized my problem, and went back to my old Glock finger position, the issues went away.

I tend to think the is not a software issue because I shoot my Beretta's just fine. As TCinVA pointed out, Glocks seem to be more sensitive to trigger finger position in my opinion.

[dgg9]

FWIW: local instructor Jeff Bloovman (whom I recommend if in the area) worked with me a bit on the shooting-left pathology. The "more finger on the trigger" was one diagnosis. Another, for a cross eye-dominant shooter like me, is to bring the gun substantially further left to get it under my dom eye, and/or turn the head more. That too helped.

[helothar]

Anyone think the stepped trigger of the g19 size and smaller guns can cause some shooting to the left? I noticed to the left shooting with my g19 but when I went out with g17 that I recently purchased it kinda went away.

[HCM]

Human interface, largely trigger-finger making contact with the frame in my case. I have big hands and a high natural grip which puts my trigger finger at perhaps a more severe angle than most. If I adopt the usual ideal trigger finger placement on a Glock, the top of my trigger finger makes contact with the frame. When working the trigger at speed I get a little bit of leftward push. Working against a dead trigger as instructed by Bob Vogel at his class a couple of years ago showed me that I was indeed pushing the gun left right at the last bit of trigger movement. I thought my sights were off and was about to break out my sight pusher when that drill came up.

To get around that I actually have to place the very tip of my trigger finger right on the Glock's trigger button instead of using the usual placement. I also have to make contact with the trigger as low down on it as possible so that the bottom edge of my trigger finger actually drags along the trigger guard as I pull through the trigger's movement.

The combination of doing all that prevents any lateral push during the trigger pull...but I don't always achieve all of that if I'm doing something at speed.

It's not something I really noticed prior to working against a dead trigger. I had plenty of training and experience prior to that and it was invisible to me until that specific drill, which caused me to do a deep dive on exactly why it was happening in my hands. I'm not the smartest guy in the room but I'm not the dumbest either...I'm betting that if I could miss such a detail for such a long time that others can as well.

I do not experience this phenomenon with any other semi-auto I have ever owned or used.

Tim,

Your experience mirrors mine and what I've observed among our Glock shooters at work. I have XXL hands and use middle of the pad trigger finger placement with everything except the Glock and double action revolver's. I don't experience a left push with any other platform. I've experienced the same thing you have, I get the best results using the very tip of my finger, using Surf's "hook and curl" method but I find it inconsistent at speed so I've defaulted to running Glocks with the first joint like a DA revolver.

From what I've seen with other shooters at work, it seems the Glock is truly designed for "average" sized hands and those at either end of the bell curve with larger or smaller hands seem to have the most issues with left push.

That said, I'm also an armorer and frequently install night sights on our guys personally owned 17's and 26's. We always start out with the sights centered and normally won't move sights until we have at least two firearms instructors shoot the gun, including shooting left-handed. In the case of my duty 17, I was driving myself nuts, I had four other instructors from my agency and our local sheriffs office, which issues Glocks, shoot the gun and all shot it to the left, including a left-handed instructor. In my experience about 10-20 % of the Glocks will shoot slightly left with the sights centered.

[TiroFijo]

"A Little left for a right handed shooter" is a normal occurrence, due to grip and specially trigger interface.

In MY case, if I'm shooting other SA pistols/revolvers and then pick a glock, I'm suddenly about 2" left at 25 yds. Magically it goes away with a little more practice, and I'm back at POA=POI.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Lefty - and consistently shot to the right when unschooled. Givens picked up the trigger finger contact and I was corrected.

Under stress - I still have that tendency. On the move, with a six shot mandated on a target - a nice tight group a few inches to the right.

Lost the correct contact with the quick firing on the move.

[Chuck Haggard]

For me the grooved trigger on the smaller guns makes this worse when I am not paying attention or get in a big hurry and haven';t been doing my dry practice

[CCT125US]

I have owned several Glocks, fired dozens owned by students and never recall any perceptable favor to hitting left. I was not data logging or shooting at fifty yards, but for the intended drill they have always been good enough. Student has POA / POI issues, blames gun, I watch the press, re demo grip etc. However, for a basic pistol class most folks aren't shooting the 10-10-10, most brand new shooters would be happy with 10rds, 7yds, 20 seconds all in the black B8. I don't believe I have ever shot a Glock past 25yds to precisely check alignment. They have always been "good enough". Now my P30 is checked for alignmemt at 50yds because that is what I chose to carry. IMO Glocks do not mechanically shoot left, but something about them causes certain folks to impact left. Also being a mass produced product, certainly some samples are machined improperly and make there way into the hands of really experienced shooters who are able to say definitively that thier sample shoots left.

[TiroFijo]

To notice this, I have to shoot slow fire at small targets or bullseyes at 15+ yds. Shooting fast, at larger targets and closer ranges the other factors mask it.

[fiona]

I am lefty. Glocks tend not to take remaining personally. Utilizing mixture some other pistols such as a CZ P07 as well as HK VP9 in order to evaluate these to, they do not take for the right both.
http://wigunpics.science/15/g.png

[GJM]

Interesting experience today. My wife and I were shooting out at our remote cabin here in Alaska, with our steel and paper targets out. New to us this year person stops by, carrying his Glock 27 in an OWB holster. Former military, Ranger I believe, nice guy. I ask him whether he would like to shoot his Glock. He wants to.

First magazine, I ask whether he wants to shoot a two inch dot to check zero, as the pistol is relatively new to him, bought used (N prefix, Gen 3 27). Wants to shoot our array which he doesn't do well. Says the pistol is inaccurate. I pull out some .40 ammo, and say the "price" is he needs to check zero, and he is to shoot a 3x5, slow fire, at 7 yards. Shots are ugly, but to the extent there is a group, it is low, left (he is shooting right hand). I then hand my wife five cartridges, and ask her to check his pistol. She shoots a one inch group at 7 yards, but hitting one to two inches right of the dot. I look at the pistol, and the rear OEM sight is drifted to the far size of the dovetail. So, we can assume the previous owner was hitting left, as was our friend today. The amount left was surely related to technique and not solely the pistol. I told him to bring his pistol by tonight, and I replaced his stock connector with a dot, and installed a .215 Warren tritium front with a Warren rear. Made a slight right deflection for him to start. Will shoot some more. He swears he has no problem hitting left with his 1911.

OK, back to my sights. I often need a very slight right deflection to the right with a variety of handguns -- SA revolver, DA revolver, 1911, CZ, etc. I use 25 3x5 cards as a prelim zero and try to use 50 yards as a final zero. Last summer, I started shooting to 100 frequently, most often with a Gen 3 Glock 17. Looking at some nearby Glock pistols, my 43 is absolutely in the center with HD sights, and I shot it out to 100 yards in the last month. My Gen 3 and Gen 4 17's have a very slight right deflection. My Gen 4 22's have a significant right deflection on three separate Gen 4 22's. Why do Glock 22 pistols require more right deflection for me than 17 pistols, given they are dimensionally the same, and both have minus connectors, 5.0 striker springs, and are the same except caliber?

[fixer]

Fixer, when you shoot left handed, what is observed?

Actually, the grouping is terrible...but they are point of aim. So there is something to be said for there being an issue with grip and trigger here.

[L-2]

For me, I believe as my right-hand's grip tightens, most Glock's will rotate slightly to the left in my hand. It's something I'm constantly working on whether I adjust my trigger finger placement; grip tighter; or stop shooting such a variety of Glocks and 1911 guns. It seems the larger gripped Glocks don't rotate as much in my hands.

For my G30gen4, no additional backstrap. For my G17gen4, G26gen4, and G22gen4, the medium blackstrap non-beavertail. The large backstrap seems to fatigue my hand sooner and makes hitting the mag release a reach, but that also seems to reduce the rotation in my hand so I haven't been using it.

[wmu12071]

Another data point:

I have 4 glocks currently, I also have access to 2 more and had another.

Guns and sights:

Glock 19 gen 4: sights centered
Glock 32 gen 3: sights centered
Glock 17 RTF: sights centered
Glock 27 gen 3 (sold): sights centered
Glock 19 gen 3 (fathers): sights centered
Glock 34 gen 4 (fathers): sights centered
glock 19 gen 3: rear sight drifted way right

Its not always the shooter, its not always the gun.

[Mr_White]

This is an interesting topic and I think there are a lot of moving parts in the equation that can make it hard to give a blanket answer.

I'm one of the people who finds Glocks to shoot straight. All my sights are as centered as I can perceive. That's how I install my sights, then I check POA/POI on a spot at 7 or 10 yards, then check again at 25 yards. If that all seems reasonably centered, then I call it good. If it seems off, I keep trying. If I am able to produce a reasonably centered group with more tries, I assume I was the problem earlier and call it good. It's never gotten to the point that I moved my rear sight away from center.

That may not be the best way to do it but it works for me. I've not yet personally experienced a Glock that I thought actually need any sight adjustment away from center.

That said, I don't discount the experiences of the many skilled shooters who do move the sight to adjust POA/POI.

I don't like the band-aid approach of shooting left (shooter's fault) and adjusting the sights to compensate, because unless the shooting error is extremely consistent, then it's going to shoot right in the instances they press the trigger well, and will be reinforcing their usual error to the left, by those shots now being centered.

But, whenever there is a gun that actually shoots left, the sights do need to be adjusted. I just think those aren't anywhere close to all instances. Ammo can change POI laterally too, so that can be another confounding factor.

Big central issue in my view: It can take a lot of patience, skill, and self-control to crush through the pressure wall without making the gun move, especially when shooting under time pressure/at speed. That's a pretty challenging part of trigger pulling on a Glock. It can be very hard to not anticipate and move the gun, to isolate the trigger finger and not move anything else, and to press through the pressure wall without jerking and causing gun movement. I think that bundle of difficulties also manifests a lot worse when shooting at speed. That bundle of difficulties is why I like the Gen3 trigger over most of the Gen4s I have felt, I prefer the minus to the dot to the standard connector, and like the 5lb striker spring cleaning up the pressure wall a little bit.


Why do Glock 22 pistols require more right deflection for me than 17 pistols, given they are dimensionally the same, and both have minus connectors, 5.0 striker springs, and are the same except caliber?

Total guess, but it seems like this could go to a slight anticipation issue. I know you shoot a lot bigger guns than G22s, so maybe this is not right in your case. But years ago I used to shoot .40 and .45 and didn't anticipate that I noticed, until I picked up a 9mm and concluded that I must have been anticipating to a small degree because I suddenly shot noticeably better.

[GJM]

Total guess, but it seems like this could go to a slight anticipation issue. I know you shoot a lot bigger guns than G22s, so maybe this is not right in your case. But years ago I used to shoot .40 and .45 and didn't anticipate that I noticed, until I picked up a 9mm and concluded that I must have been anticipating to a small degree because I suddenly shot noticeably better.

If I could use your drawing program you use so well to design stages, I would show one guy shooting groups with a sight adjustment tool in his pocket, and the other proclaiming "it is anticipation, the size of the backstop, thumb pressure ....."

I find the G4 22 pistols extremely accurate, and routinely shooting 2 - 2.5 inch groups offhand with them at 25 yards. Also do lots of group shooting support hand only. Since POI doesn't move for me left, right or two hands, how might anticipation figure in to that? And, the Glock 20 and two 29's in my gear here are nearly centered, but a smidge right.

[wmu12071]

Also, my gen 3 seems to shoot left based on the slide. I can swap barrels, frames, connectors, anything really and the problem follows the slide with a sample of 2 glock 19 gen 3s and 2 different shooters.

[Mr_White]

Since POI doesn't move for me left, right or two hands, how might anticipation figure in to that? And, the Glock 20 and two 29's in my gear here are nearly centered, but a smidge right.

All that suggests that it's just my bias in believing it's the shooter rather than the gun!

[matt7184]

For me, I believe as my right-hand's grip tightens, most Glock's will rotate slightly to the left in my hand. It's something I'm constantly working on whether I adjust my trigger finger placement; grip tighter; or stop shooting such a variety of Glocks and 1911 guns. It seems the larger gripped Glocks don't rotate as much in my hands.

For my G30gen4, no additional backstrap. For my G17gen4, G26gen4, and G22gen4, the medium blackstrap non-beavertail. The large backstrap seems to fatigue my hand sooner and makes hitting the mag release a reach, but that also seems to reduce the rotation in my hand so I haven't been using it.

My experiences mirror yours, however I have decided to stick to the Large Gen 4 Beavertail backstraps because of the lower amount of rotation and my hands get chewed up without a beavertail.

[Luke]

...It seems the larger gripped Glocks don't rotate as much..

I finally shot my gen4 17 yesterday. First time shooting it and was function checking after connector install. I shot it with no back straps because I already couldn't release the mag without shifting my grip a little so I new a blackstrap would magnify this. I went out and shot it and couldn't hit a index card at 7 yards. I was getting PISSED! I've NEVER shot that bad. They were all over the place. I slowed down, really really focused on trigger control and watching the sight and focusing. Still nothing. Pissed off I went inside. I remembered the glock shooting low/left thread and saw were it said shoot left handed and see what it does. So I went back outside and tryed it left handed (first ever shooting left handed using my right hand as support) it was a little better. Still crazy, but a lot better. Still very upset I walked inside with every intention of selling this piece of "junk". After calming down I thought about the back straps.. I installed the large beaver tail strap and went back out side. 7 yards produced a nice little grouping inside the index card like I was used too! I hate the way the back strap feels, but why would I not use it if I can't shoot without it? When I get some more time I will experiment with the "rotating" as I really really don't want to run a back strap. It feels as if I'm holding a brick in my hand.

[HCM]

feels good does not always = shoots good.

[CSW]

I shoot left handed and for a long time, autos all shot to the right for me. I set all my rear sights a little left. Eventually, I figured out trigger control and now they all shoot straight with the sights dead center. Now if I could still see...

LtDave;

My experience exactly.
you described it perfectly for a left handed perspective.

And the eyes....oh, the eyes.....:(

ETA:
Glock 19, shot right[ I'm lefty] until I put 10/8 Black/FO sights on, and realized I am not on the trigger correctly. Serrated trigger. Sights centered.
Glock 26/26. Serrated trigger, both have Trij nite sights, both spot on POA. Both centered.
Glock 23, shot right, Serrated trigger, Installed Trij Nite's, centered, now shoots POA.
Glcok 36, shot POA with factory sights, smooth trigger....still shoots to POA with Ameriglo CAP's. Centered.
Glock 34, shot right with previous owner's abomination sights. Installed Proctor Y sights, centered, smooth trigger, shoots POA now.

...at first, I thought it was the guns [excuse], but after alot of shooting over the winter with member Doublestack45, and refining skills and BASICS, can call my shots IF I do my part....then there's the eyes....

[GNiner]

I have always shot Gen 3 Glock 19's very well. I have added a Gen 4 to my collection on two previous occasions (because I continue to read that they are more accurate than the Gen 3's). I have not been able to come near the scores on a B-8 center that I could do with my Gen 3's. I have set them up identically (so I thought) with Gen 3 trigger bars and minus connectors). I have very small hands and have to shift my grip to reach the mag release on the Gen 3's so I always shot the Gen '4s without any backstraps. The Gen 4 guns feel perfect without a backstrap. I couldn't get them to shoot accurately for me though, so I sold them off. Finally after reading a previous thread on PF about using the backstraps even though they don't feel as good, I purchased another Gen 4, set it up like my Gen 3's, and installed the medium backstrap ( I really liked the beavertail, but did not want to negatively affect my shooting with my Gen 3's so I just stuck with the plain med backstrap). Problem was solved! I still don't seem to get MORE accuracy out of the Gen 4, but at least the average scores are comparable to my Gen 3 scores.

[pangloss]

I am right-handed, and my Glocks tend to shoot to the left when I shoot right-handed. When I (slowly) shoot left-handed POA usually equals POI. I've found that when shooting right-handed, if I concentrate on applying front to back grip pressure on the pistol, my shooting improves. I haven't been shooting my G26 as much lately, but the little hump in the back strap seems to help my shooting as the hump buries nicely into to the palm of my hand and gives me more feed back on the quality of my grip. After reading through this thread, I think I will dig out the back straps that came with my Gen4 G19 and see if using them makes any sort of difference.

[Luke]

I'm not sure what's going on. I'm about to sell this glock. I wanted it to work so bad but I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. Glock shoots all over the place. Low, high, left, right.. I took a uspsa target and put like 15 half inch dots on it in sharpie and fired 1 shot at each dot and never go within 2-3" of the dot at seven yards. Tryed shooting groups and it's about a 4-6" (it actually changes that much) group that's all over the place. I thought I was loosing it as its been a couple weeks since I shot anything. Grabbed the VP9 and went out side at shot a 10 shot group under 2" no problem. The grip is so slick it kept moving all over when shooting so I went out and bought non skid tape. It's like 120grit, put it all over the gun and it feels way better but still shooting all over the place. This is rediculous. I hate glock. Bad.

[Kevin B.]

Where in Alabama are you?

[Luke]

Just south of bham. If your anywhere around and are good with pistols of love to have somebody who is genuinely good shooter shoot this thing. I have a 2 day pistol class coming up in July and no way in taking a gun I couldn't hit a target at 20 yards with!

[Kevin B.]

PM Sent.

[BobLoblaw]

The only guns that I shoot left are my Glocks. The subcompact Glocks not as much as the compact and full size. I've toyed with the idea of a grip reduction but don't want to invest the coin when other plastic poppers don't give me these issues. Trigger reach plus the grip shape forces my index finger to contact the top rear portion of the trigger guard (near the pins). Very irritating.

[Biggy]

The only guns that I shoot left are my Glocks. The subcompact Glocks not as much as the compact and full size. I've toyed with the idea of a grip reduction but don't want to invest the coin when other plastic poppers don't give me these issues. Trigger reach plus the grip shape forces my index finger to contact the top rear portion of the trigger guard (near the pins). Very irritating.


Apex Tactical will becoming out with their flat faced trigger for Glock pistols, hopefully in the not to distant future. They are currently in the testing phase. These will be similar to the one for the S&W M&P pistols and may set the trigger pad/face slightly forward. I believe it will make the Glock pistols more shootable and help to give them a more consistent point of impact.

[dgg9]

Apex Tactical will becoming out with their flat faced trigger for Glock pistols, hopefully in the not to distant future.

I look forward to trying one out as an experiment. So many people shoot Glocks "left" that it can't just be a grip size issue. I've sometimes speculated that it has something to do with the vague surface that the safety button on the trigger presents.

[GJM]

So for those that think their Glock pistols consistently shoot POA/POI, is that with one load, or a bunch at them -- and, is that still true at 25-50 yards?

This really gets to my question as to whether you view a fixed rear sight as "fixed," or rather as a rear sight that requires some effort to adjust? In other words, do you set your rear sight at the mechanical center and try to adjust your technique to shift errant POI or adjust the rear sight to your consistent groups? I am not talking about jerking shots 5 inches left at 7 yards, but rather repeatable, subtle POI deviations at 25, 50 yards and further. If you subscribe to the leave it at mechanical center camp, do you also do that when installing, for example, BUIS on an AR, where the rear sight has a center mark.

[Kevin B.]

So for those that think their Glock pistols consistently shoot POA/POI, is that with one load, or a bunch at them -- and, is that still true at 25-50 yards?

This really gets to my question as to whether you view a fixed rear sight as "fixed," or rather as a rear sight that requires some effort to adjust? In other words, do you set your rear sight at the mechanical center and try to adjust your technique to shift errant POI or adjust the rear sight to your consistent groups? I am not talking about jerking shots 5 inches left at 7 yards, but rather repeatable, subtle POI deviations at 25, 50 yards and further. If you subscribe to the leave it at mechanical center camp, do you also do that when installing, for example, BUIS on an AR, where the rear sight has a center mark.

I own six Glocks. All have there their sights centered to within .005".

I shoot groups at 25 yards on a B-8 and at 50 yards on an IPSC A-zone to verify POA/POI.

I use the same technique when shooting all six an have no windage issues.

[GJM]

I own six Glocks. All have there their sights centered to within .005".

I shoot groups at 25 yards on a B-8 and at 50 yards on an IPSC A-zone to verify POA/POI.

I use the same technique when shooting all six an have no windage issues.

Just to clarify, you notice no changes in windage POI at 25 and 50 yards, from different ammo, in any of your Glock pistols? And, same question as regards elevation.

[TiroFijo]

I've never measured them, but all my glocks appeared to have their sights well centered (certainly, not different than any other pistol), and they shot POA-POI for me. I could shoot small, well centered groups at 25 m on paper, or plink at relatively small metal targets (about 12 MOA, this is about 3" at 25 yds) up to 100 m.

[Kevin B.]

Not any significant enough that I cannot attribute to shooter error/lighting. I may see a slight bias (call it 1" at 25 yards; 2" at 50 yards) but that bias will disappear or reverse itself on another range session.

In my current training gun, 115-grain Lawman, 115-grain Blazer, 124-grain HST +P and 127-grain Ranger +P+ are all on for windage.

[GJM]

Not any significant enough that I cannot attribute to shooter error/lighting. I may see a slight bias (call it 1" at 25 yards; 2" at 50 yards) but that bias will disappear or reverse itself on another range session.

In my current training gun, 115-grain Lawman, 115-grain Blazer, 124-grain HST +P and 127-grain Ranger +P+ are all on for windage.

When I was doing a bunch of shooting at 100 yards last summer/fall, I found the Lawman 115 to be incredibly accurate at 100 yards in multiple Gen 3 17 pistols. My wife has a 34, and she is good enough to discern this, that shoots different windage groups at 25 yards with PMC, Blazer brass and AE 147. One load, and I forget which, shoots left, the other POA/POI and the other right.

A few months back, Robbie Leatham, YVK, my wife and I each shot his Bianchi XDM. As I recall, we each shot a decent group at 25 yards, two inches right with Atlanta arms, but his Bianchi load shot a group half the size, perfectly centered.

[Kevin B.]

I had different Lot #'s of M882 Ball shoot to different POI. That was pretty frustrating.

I just looked at groups from two recent sessions. Same GEN4 G17.

The group with 115-grain Lawman was 100-7x, center-left. The group with 124-grain HST +P was 99-5x (called flyer) center-right. The Glock has its rear sight centered to .001" (I got lucky with the sight tool.)

The Lawman group was shot ~0900 with the sun at 8 o'clock. The HST group was shot ~1900 with the sun at 2 o'clock.

Could be the ammo. Could be the shooter. Could be the sun.

In any case, more than accurate enough fo my purposes and a fairly typical representation of what I see when shooting Glocks at 25 yards.

[LSP972]

Could be the sun.



This is something we rarely see discussed. Lighting (angle, intensity, direction) can have a huge effect on a sight picture- or a perceived sight picture. Some folks (and some sights) are more sensitive to it than others, but it is certainly a factor to some extent.

This is one reason why a properly laid-out range, one intended for competitive shooting anyway, in the United States faces north. In our part of the world, during the warm weather months the sun is generally in the southern part of the sky. Shooting an iron-sighted firearm is like shooting a camera; the sun at your back is best.

In my salad days, I was so sensitive to light changes that I kept a log book with each range we visited on "the circuit". That way, I could show up in Mobile with the right windage "dope" on my sights, and the next week-end go to that hole in the ground (literally) at Lawton OK; which faced due east; crank in the necessary adjustments, and be very close to zeroed at the long line, where it really mattered.

Of course, these days I can't see the sights for jack, so I'm happy to hit anywhere in the vicinity of the silhouette's chest at distance. My problem now is one of alignment; keeping the front sight centered in the rear notch. But a strong side light/sun still will "throw off" my POA at distance.

.

[Kevin B.]

...And, same question as regards elevation.

Just saw this part of your earlier post. Of course I see elevation changes between 25 and 50 yards. How pronounced depends on the gun.

Likewise, different ammunition has a different elevation POI at both 25 and 50.

[BN]

I have several Glock 17's. I have shot 147 grain bullets for years and always adjusted the sights for the 147's. Some of them had to have the elevation changed to shoot to POA and I always moved the rear to center the group. I think most of them are pretty well centered.

Nearly all of my ammo is hand loads. A while back I started using 135 grain bullets because the price on the 147's I was using kept going up. On several of my G-17's the 135 group is 2 or 3 inches high and left. My G-19 shoots the 135's to the same POA as the 147's. Go figure. I have confirmed these groups several times shooting both in the sun and from the shade while shooting both offhand and from a rest.

Years ago when I was groundhog hunting with a .357, I found that 110 grain bullets hit 6 inches lower that 158's.

I do believe that the Glock trigger my be a little harder to shoot than other triggers. At the same time I have no problem with adjusting sights. :)

[Chuck Haggard]

Quite a bit ref sights and lighting effects as mentioned by LSP972 in this discussion;

http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/nwongmain/ironsightsurvey.html

[ASH556]

Both of my Gen 4 G17's have the rear sight hugging the RH side of the slide. Both shoot POA=POI for both windage and elevation at 25yds. Both are blue label guns and are within 4 digits of being sequential serial numbers. I know many of you are better at this than I am, but in my hands, either the pistols shoot left and require correction with the rear sight or I'm just incredibly consistent at somehow pushing my shots left:

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/B9F3A8BA-17C8-40CB-84A7-CE7C3D3DEE22.jpg
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/EA224C08-0C68-4E95-8AAD-92E341EF3C0F.jpg

[GJM]

Quite a bit ref sights and lighting effects as mentioned by LSP972 in this discussion;

http://www.starreloaders.com/edhall/nwongmain/ironsightsurvey.html

Interesting link!

I have been shooting my Sig 320 at 25-75 yards the last four or five range sessions. My target is eight inch steel, and I frequently repaint with white paint. The advantage of this target set-up is I can easily see the POI of each shot, even from 75 yards.

Using my 320 as an example, at 25 yards, AE 147 hits about 1-2 inches left, Aguila 124 shoots POI, and PMC 115 ball shoots 1-2 inches right. Also, the 147 AE strikes about two inches higher than the 115 ball. Go back to 50 yards, and what seem like slight POI variations, are very obvious on the white steel plate. Shooting the different ammo at the same time, in the same light, would seem to correct for the effect of light, as you might experience if you shot in different light conditions. Going further to 75 yards, and a particular type of ammo that makes a nice group at 50 on the right or left side of the plate, totally misses at 75 yards.

[TGS]

I know many of you are better at this than I am, but in my hands, either the pistols shoot left and require correction with the rear sight or I'm just incredibly consistent at somehow pushing my shots left:


Which is entirely possible.

Over the last month I've been shooting groups about the same at 25 yards with my P2000, but everything was pushed left. It was really freakin annoying me. My score on a 200 drill would be in the 130s, but if you corrected it to be centered it would actually be in the 170s to 180s. I handed my gun to two different persons, who both did not have this problem. At the same time, it wouldn't show up at 10 yards, or even 15, and on the 10 yard "Test" drill I would still pass with all hits in the black and scoring mid 90s.

I spent a few hours by myself shooting 20 yards (max at my indoor range), and spent a bunch of mags doing ball'n'dummy. I couldn't detect any extraneous movement in the sight picture or any anticipation. Even still, I figured I'd keep shooting ball'n'dummy. After a couple mags, the group shifted left a couple inches. Hmmm....so I shot another mag of ball'n'dummy. Came back right a few more. It slowly started coming back in, eventually settling centered as it should.

So, my point being, you can still be very accurate but consistently left.

[Nephrology]

So, my point being, you can still be very accurate but consistently left.

Absolutely. I can't tell you how many times I've had tiny little groups that are consistently 1-3" left of my POA. This trend disappears when I am shooting on the clock. Go figure

[Morbidbattlecry]

I have a Gen 3 17 that shoots about 2-3 inches left at 10 yards. I was sure it was me. Then i dropped a Wilson barrel in it and my groups jumped to the center. I'm sorta under the impression it has something to do with the barrel.

[Jesting Devil]

My gen 3 34 has the sight drifted a touch right and I've hit steel out to 120 yards (on a good day). If I'm pushing left, its extremely consistent.

Gen 4 17, on the other hand, shoots straight on as far as I can tell but I have a lot fewer rounds through it

[TiroFijo]

In my experience, it is quite possible for a shooter to be very consistent pulling the shots to the left, even with very good groups as posted above by ASH556 (which may as well be a gun shooting left, not the shooter). In this case, I see no reason to change anything but simply move the rear sight to match POA and POI.

What was anoying for me was to shoot good, well centered groups with my other pistol/revolvers and then all of a sudden, quite often, see the POI drift to the left when picking up a glock. The groups were just as tight (or almost), but I knew I was doing something wrong. Within a few magazines, the groups moved back to center. And when shooting fast (as nephrology mentioned) for some reason it seemed I did not pull the shots left, or to a lesser degree.

When shooting DA with revolvers, and then switching to glocks, the POI seemed to change much less.

[GJM]

So at this point in the thread, I think that while there may be no consensus on whether some,many, or no Glock pistols shoot left, it is agreed that many right hand shooters shoot Glock pistols to the left, and far more often than most other handguns.

So, the question is what is it about the Glock, that causes many right hand shooters to shoot Glock pistols to the left?

[JHC]

So at this point in the thread, I think that while there may be no consensus on whether some,many, or no Glock pistols shoot left, it is agreed that many right hand shooters shoot Glock pistols to the left, and far more often than most other handguns.

So, the question is what is it about the Glock, that causes many right hand shooters to shoot Glock pistols to the left?

IIRC - Surf surmised that the dimensions of the frame plus the trigger reach plus the arc the trigger follows in pulling - are unforgiving of less than just right pressures applied to each and they all sort of combine to make the pistol easy to push.

This week I took my daughter in law shooting for her fourth and fifth time ever. She has a G42 but she has been shooting my Gen 3 G17 and Gen 4 G31 this week also. She has really really tiny hands and yet, didn't push a miss left across a few hundred rounds.

I don't understand the push left phenom albeit I've seen it frequently too around other shooters and I've experienced myself.

[BN]

So at this point in the thread, I think that while there may be no consensus on whether some,many, or no Glock pistols shoot left, it is agreed that many right hand shooters shoot Glock pistols to the left, and far more often than most other handguns.

So, the question is what is it about the Glock, that causes many right hand shooters to shoot Glock pistols to the left?

Is the dwell time longer on the Glocks than other striker fired pistols?

[LSP972]

I don't understand the push left phenom albeit I've seen it frequently too around other shooters and I've experienced myself.

Well, I cannot speak for anyone but myself… but I do it with just about anything at speed; particularly during presentations. From the press-out, in deliberate slow fire, no problem. I know EXACTLY what is causing it; pushing the trigger to the left. Was doing it this morning with the HK45C and G43. Hell, I did it a few times with the carbine (stock 6920). If I really, REALLY concentrate, I can minimize it.

But the bottom line is, its only a couple of inches at seven yards and closer. If I'm taking a shot farther than that, I'm going to be taking an extra bit of time anyway and it (trigger push) doesn't manifest itself.

We have discussed this ad nauseum here, and while it is interesting and educational, I have decided that I cannot, for whatever reason, train myself out of it. I shoot weekly, and just cannot eliminate it entirely. Keep in mind that I'm talking about presentations at speed; I don't see it during deliberate firing.

So I live with it. Those who cannot, and strive to fix it, good on you. And I mean that sincerely. I guess I'm just getting too old and cranky to worry about it anymore… ;)

.

[LSP552]

I guess I'm just getting too old and cranky to worry about it anymore… ;)

.

You were old and cranky 30 years ago...:p

That is an interesting point about showing up more at speed than slow fire. Do you think your hand size plays a role there?

For me, the slight left lean tends be more a Glock thing than anything else. I don't see it with my SIGs. It's worse with my 2nd gen 19 than the 17. I THINK it relates to the square grip than doesn't really fit my hand well. I personally have to use a stronger grip with a Glock than I do with the SIG to see the same results. However, I've noticed an improvement after putting Talon grips on my carry 17 and 2nd gen 19. The gun stays anchored better and I THINK it gives me more control during the trigger press.

The other factor is eyesight. At our age, sight alignment and sigh picture ain't what they use to be. I know I'm at a point where eyesight plays a greater role than my trigger press.

[LSP972]

Do you think your hand size plays a role there?



Most likely. Back when I was shooting my "duty" M-66 in the snap'n'giggle matches, using mid-range .38s, I don't recall seeing this. Those were the only times I ever shot a revolver at the kind of speed we're doing with the bottom feeders these days. And those custom stocks that Fred got John Hurst to make for me, mold my hand to a K frame like it was made for it; I can get the first joint of my trigger finger on the trigger for a DA stroke. With the semi-autos, the best I've ever done is being able to get the pad of the finger solidly on the trigger, with the LEM after taking up approximately half the slack. With the Glocks, even my Bowies with the grip reduction, I'm using between the pad and tip of the finger.

You'll recall that, during the initial testing phases while we were fleshing out the transition lesson plan, I was THIS close to going with the 5906 because I simply could not reach the "long" trigger on the P226. The Sig guy showing up at the eleventh hour with those short triggers saved me.

So, yeah… I imagine my small hands and short fingers are big contributors.

No doubt that a slightly rough grip texture helps. I had one of the HK45C's stippled, and it makes a big difference. I'm working up the nerve to do my others myself. You've shot one of my Bowies extensively, so you know about that.

.

[LSP552]

No doubt that a slightly rough grip texture helps. I had one of the HK45C's stippled, and it makes a big difference. I'm working up the nerve to do my others myself. You've shot one of my Bowies extensively, so you know about that.

.

Put the soldering iron down and step back from the 45c....

[GJM]

LSP552 and 972, I am assuming they don't have cell phones and email down in LA, and you use PF when your walkie talkies won't connect? :)

[Paul053]

I honestly believe they do. Here's why. I've owned a 17 &34 gen 3 and a gen 17. They all shot left. No matter where I put my finger they always shot left. Thinking that my lack of skill with the pistol was the cause I tried shooting a SA trp operator, hk 45, hk vp9, s&w mp9 and VZ sp01 back to back with my glocks. All those other pistols I could shoot dead on straight with. I even used a pistol rest (a big caldwell bag to rest the gun on and a small bag to rest my hand on) to try and eliminate all factors and I still was consistently kept shooting left @25 yards. I drifted my sights over and I can consistently put ten rounds in a 2 in pasties at 15 yards slow fire. Maybe I still effed up but if consistency is key then I feel like I'm doing fine...I run 10-8 sights on all my guns with 156 rears and 115 fronts.

[LSP972]

Put the soldering iron down and step back from the 45c....

Too late. I've already practiced on five mag base plates with the DB mod; I are emboldened.

.

[LSP972]

...when your walkie talkies won't connect? :)

CB radios, y'herd?

Yee-haw…


.

[BobLoblaw]

So, the question is what is it about the Glock, that causes many right hand shooters to shoot Glock pistols to the left?

I always assumed it had to do with the grip angle vs the angle of the trigger.

[TheNewbie]

Is it logical that I would shoot the Glock 21SF better than the Glock 19?

I have smaller hands, but this seems to be true.

[Jesting Devil]

An idea:

For someone with a glock that appears to mechanically shoot left, try shooting with a left handed grip and see if it still hits on point to isolate trigger finger influence as a factor.

I've tried it with my 34 and as far as I can tell it hits right on suggesting that it is not just the way the right hand interacts with it. Admittedly this was a while ago and I'm not the best shot lefty so someone else out there may be able to get better data

[john c]

This is a great thread.

I've been carrying a Gen2 G17 on duty for 19 years now. In the early days, I struggled with left leaning groups. I quickly added a Hogue rubber grip sleeve. The tacky rubber and finger grooves keep my hand firmly in the same place shot after shot. The issue cleared up. It never really clicked as to why until reading this thread.

Fast forward to last week. I just picked up a Sig P320 after the glowing reviews on this forum. I shot it, and was shooting to the left, consistently. Following the advice on this forum, I tried shooting it left handed, and the groups were centered. Then I cranked up my fore and aft pressure on the stock medium grip, and the strong hand groups moved closer to center. I have large hands, and I think the issue is the medium grip. I definitely need a large grip. I also think the lack of grippiness is a factor; the stock grip could use stippling or a hogue grip sleeve.

[GJM]

An idea:

For someone with a glock that appears to mechanically shoot left, try shooting with a left handed grip and see if it still hits on point to isolate trigger finger influence as a factor.

I've tried it with my 34 and as far as I can tell it hits right on suggesting that it is not just the way the right hand interacts with it. Admittedly this was a while ago and I'm not the best shot lefty so someone else out there may be able to get better data

I am a right hand shooter and have a slight right deflection on the rear sight of most of my Glock 9mm pistols. I commonly need a slight right deflection on all my handguns, regardless of type, and have for years. I have always attributed it to my eyes and how I see iron sights. When I shoot groups on the head of an IPSC target at 25 yards, left hand only with a Glock, I get 3 inch +/- groups, perfectly centered. So, no difference in POI right and left hand only.

[EricM]

You guys got me curious, so I pulled out my digital calipers and measured the rear sight placement on my Glocks (all wearing Dawson Chargers). My usual installation procedure is to eyeball the rear sight to center, take my sight pusher to the range, shoot at 7 yards, adjust, then shoot at 25 yards (standing freestyle, 10 shot groups), adjust, and repeat. So as they sit right now, and BTW I'm a left handed shooter... Gen 4 34: dead center. Gen 4 17: 0.009" left of center. Gen 3 30: 0.014" left of center. Next time I install sights I'll set the initial position with the aid of calipers and go from there; I'll be picking up a few more Glocks in the coming months so it'll be interesting to see what a larger sample size indicates. I should also start doing my final check at 50 yards, been a while since I've shot that distance with a handgun.

[Gviz]

I'll be the first to admit Im not the greatest pistol shooter in the world...

That being said I started off with XDs and XDMs. I shot those pistols very well and rarely experienced the "low left" issue as a righty. Eventually the more I learned about polymer handguns I migrated to Glocks even though I didnt shoot them as well right off the bat. I have found that it takes ALOT more concentration on grip and trigger control to not shoot low left with Glocks than it ever did with XDs. That being said I feel that the Glock comes into its own on quick follow up shots due to its grip angle differences. I have slightly largely than average hands and use the large beaver tail backstrap on my Gen 4 G19. It is frustrating but I feel determined to try to fix it without switching to another gun platform because I really do like Glocks.

[Luke]

I think I've figured it out. The glocks slide is lighter than most and it's recoil is "sharper" and your mind subconsciously try's to counter act it by anticipating and pushing low left.

[Skeeter]

Another data point...

Just put new sights on my G19, and sighted in this evening (right handed). Digital caliper measurements indicated it was 0.006 to the right. I'm using a piece of ground flat steel held against the side of the slide, and measuring from the outside of the slide to the inside of the sight notch, both left and right, then taking the difference and dividing by 2 to get the offset from center. The group at 15 yards was inside a 3" ring, but offset to the right around 3/8". In order to justify buying a sight pusher, I drifted it 0.002 ;-) So it's set 0.004 to the right now.

Side note: Before going to the range I tried bore sighting with a laser-ammo cartridge. The laser tested like real ammo, shooting a small fraction of an inch right. However, I had to take the extractor out to get precise results because it pushed the tail end of the laser-ammo cartridge to the side. I could tell that the laser was manufactured true to the outside diameter of the cartridge because no matter how I rotated it in the bore, the results were the same.

[krazykiddjoe]

I have just finished assisting our agency firearm instructors in transitioning over 400 officers from a Glock 22/23/27 to a Glock 17/19/26. I have seen more and more shooters who range in law enforcement experience from less than 1 year to over 25 years shoot low or low left. We ran slow fire bulls with each group of shooters, diagnosed what we observed them doing wrong. By far we have numerous shooters that were shooting left consistently. The number one problem we find is that the trigger finger is laying on the frame of the gun below the ejection port and imposing lateral movement as the shot breaks, during slow fire this is very easily repeated. during timed rapid fire this isn't as easy, hence the reason for skewed results when closer in shooting faster. If you can keep you finger off of the frame and only contact the actual trigger not the frame in the top of the trigger guard and not the bottom of the trigger guard, we see a dramatic improvement in the officers shooting POA/POI. Shooting a gun with a "-" or aftermarket trigger kits resulted in average of a 10 point increase in qualification scores for the few shooters that we tested that theory on. I am a left handed shooter, however I can shoot right handed and was able to shoot every weapon asked to check in the black at 25 yards on a bull both left and right handed... we did however have another issue that is perplexing us and that is that we had approximately 15 guns (all 17's cept 1 34) shooting 6"-8" high confirmed by numerous instructors. We have tried different barrels with no noticeable shift, next we plan to try the locking blocks.

[Paul053]

I have just finished assisting our agency firearm instructors in transitioning over 400 officers from a Glock 22/23/27 to a Glock 17/19/26. I have seen more and more shooters who range in law enforcement experience from less than 1 year to over 25 years shoot low or low left. We ran slow fire bulls with each group of shooters, diagnosed what we observed them doing wrong. By far we have numerous shooters that were shooting left consistently. The number one problem we find is that the trigger finger is laying on the frame of the gun below the ejection port and imposing lateral movement as the shot breaks, during slow fire this is very easily repeated. during timed rapid fire this isn't as easy, hence the reason for skewed results when closer in shooting faster. If you can keep you finger off of the frame and only contact the actual trigger not the frame in the top of the trigger guard and not the bottom of the trigger guard, we see a dramatic improvement in the officers shooting POA/POI. Shooting a gun with a "-" or aftermarket trigger kits resulted in average of a 10 point increase in qualification scores for the few shooters that we tested that theory on. I am a left handed shooter, however I can shoot right handed and was able to shoot every weapon asked to check in the black at 25 yards on a bull both left and right handed... we did however have another issue that is perplexing us and that is that we had approximately 15 guns (all 17's cept 1 34) shooting 6"-8" high confirmed by numerous instructors. We have tried different barrels with no noticeable shift, next we plan to try the locking blocks.
Thats interesting because that's exactly what I do with my trigger finger! If you're staring down the muzzle my second knuckle will be at a 45 degree angle, with the top of the knuckle touching the frame. Gonna have to try this next time at the range.

[TiroFijo]

krazykiddjoe, that is very good info, and mirrors my experience (both personal and also several friends, a much smaller pool of shooters). Thanks!

When you say "low or low left", what is the POI movement (at 25 yds, or another distance you have data).
When repeatable, is there a "typical" value of POI drift due to shooter error from the mechanical POI, or varies a lot from shooter to shooter?
The shooters that show more POI drift are the novice ones, expert shooters, or just about random?

[john c]

If you can keep you finger off of the frame and only contact the actual trigger not the frame in the top of the trigger guard and not the bottom of the trigger guard, we see a dramatic improvement in the officers shooting POA/POI.

Tonight I was issued a brand new Gen4 Glock 17 as my primary duty gun. It will replace the Gen 2 I've been carrying. Out of the box, it shot to the left, though the sights were centered. Looking at my Gen 2, the sights have quite a bit of adjustment to the right. I tried krazykidjoe's technique, and found it hard to not have any contact with the frame or trigger guard. I have average-sized fingers, but the high grip and grip angle of the Glock caused my fingers to almost reach down to the trigger. I had to engage the trigger with the pad of my trigger finger at a sharp angle to not hit the trigger guard with the side of my finger. This didn't appear to help my shooting left, but this still needs some work. I shot the pistol with my left hand, and the group was centered. In the short term, I've adjusted the rear sight, and now my groups are centered.

All these years, I've been "dragging wood" on my Glock. Thanks for the info. My target pistols all have ergo grips that place my finger perfectly in the trigger, so I've gotten lazy with my duty pistols. The farther I go down this path, the more I realize that it's all about the fundamentals.

[krazykiddjoe]

krazykiddjoe, that is very good info, and mirrors my experience (both personal and also several friends, a much smaller pool of shooters). Thanks!

When you say "low or low left", what is the POI movement (at 25 yds, or another distance you have data).
When repeatable, is there a "typical" value of POI drift due to shooter error from the mechanical POI, or varies a lot from shooter to shooter?
The shooters that show more POI drift are the novice ones, expert shooters, or just about random?

In our transition. We had quite a few shooters that simply cant shoot a group to a point we can diagnose what they are or aren't doing. We have had some SWAT guys shooting 2 1/2" groups at 25 approximately 4" left. Just in the 8 or even the 7 ring. Then work with those willing to remove the ego from their shooting. Got them shooting the 10/X without adjusting their sights.

I do admit. I have large hands. And I will shoot a bit right (left handed) due to me dragging my trigger finger along the bottom(triggerguard). If I am cognizant and determined I have no issues shooting 8 ring and in. If I would slow down I can shoot 9 ring and in. To date best 10 shot slow I have shot was 92/3x. I have never shot bulls with anything other than a Glock. I have no data there.
On the 700 point humbler I have yet to break 600 so I am by far from an expert imho.

My current goal is to shoot a pistol match less than 5 points down without slowing down.

[Irelander]

There is absolutely no way for me to not have my trigger finger contact the frame just below the ejection port. Unfortunately my index fingers are both curved toward my middle finger. When the pad of my trigger finger is on the trigger, the area between my first and second knuckle is touching the frame. I do have left leaning groups if I am not concentrating on a perfect trigger pull. Most of the time I have no problem shooting POA.

[Surf]

I have not commented on this thread as I tend to avoid the topic as I have discussed it at length and had video's that addressed the topic. Some people are very passionate in insisting that it is the pistols issue as they don't shoot any other pistol off center. Maybe that is correct as I have not shot every Glock pistol out there and while I have not "seen it all" when it comes to Glocks and shooters as that is just not possible, I do have a huge sample size from which I come to my own conclusions. However if the pistol is mechanically correct / accurate in a rest, it is the shooter not keeping the proper sight alignment when the trigger is being pulled. I will just summarize by giving first hand information and any conclusions can be drawn from there.

As a background reference I have been heavily into the Glock pistol for about 7-8 years, admittedly not that long, however my exposure to the weapon and Glock shooters is in the several hundreds and thousands of actual pistols. I am a long time factory armorer (as simplistic as that is) doing another darn recert in Sept, but beyond that I do pretty much everything that anyone out there is doing with the Glock except machining slides. I have been involved in the early phases of "Glocksmithing" so to speak. I have done RnD and T&E for aftermarket parts manufacturers so I am extremely familiar with the pistols parts and mechanical function, again as simple as it is. Over this time I don't think there is much that I haven't seen or done to the pistol itself and many of our early tinkering has come out as packaged trigger set ups and parts.

As for shooters, my State LE is about 90% Glock. I have trained hundreds of personnel from just about every agency from Local, to State, to Fed and every branch of service, so my cross section of Glock users is pretty large. I also conducted an 8 month Glock transition in 2014 for my agency of ~2200 Officers and I personally inspected and signed off on over 700 of those Glocks and their users. The Glock can indeed be problematic for certain shooters and not always for the same reasons. The way in which the pistol interfaces with the shooters hand particularly with the backstrap and the trigger can cause issues, especially when shooters have certain hand sizes, hand shape and finger lengths.

I have noticed that about 35-40% of shooters have some type of issue with the Glock. This can be mild to more extreme and probably less than half of those I would consider extreme. Yes the left push, or a low and left for a right hander falls into this percentage range. It is much less noticed in lefties as there are a lot less lefties out there, but a right push or a right and low happens at about that same percentage rate as it does for right handers.

So if there is a problem, is it the weapon or the shooter or both? This is where I give my first hand experience. I own more Glocks than I can count on my fingers and toes. I have shot more Glocks than I can count for persons who claimed the pistol shot off center. Of the 700 pistols and shooters that I signed off on, at about 35%-40% issue rate comes out to about 245-280 pistols / shooters who shot off center. I personally fired about 150 of those pistols in front of the shooter with the issue. Between myself and my 2 other instructors we fired all pistols where the shooter exhibited this problem. This serves the purpose to verify the pistols mechanical accuracy and also to instill confidence in the shooter that the pistol is not an issue. We can work on the shooter. Out of those 245-280 pistols we fired we found a total of 2 pistols that were not POA/POI. One pistol had a loose rear sight that shifted and needed to be peened. The other pistol indeed did need a slight tap of the rear sight for windage however the amount of correction was not consistent to the shooters results. In other words the shooter had an issue also.

During the Glock transition, of all the shooters we encountered who had issues even those with dramatic push issues, we were overwhelmingly successful with fixing the majority of those shooters. We only had a small handful, maybe 4 or 5 individuals who would not take to the techniques we support but I do feel that they could have been successful. However, Some people just don't take to instruction or are too stubborn / set in their ways, or stupid. I feel that I can pretty much fix most if not all shooters who have Glock shooting issues, if the shooter is receptive and performs as instructed. A shooter can easily revert to old ways, so correct repetition to ingrain is extremely critical, even more so if they have issues on the Glock than say another pistol. Also there are several fixes for any number of various issues that can manifest, so there is not just one blanket fix. There are so many nuances or possible combinations that can cause an issue that it is nearly impossible for an average shooter to fix the problem at least without some type of professional help. I also find that the majority of your average firearm instructors are not experienced enough to fix dramatic issues in a Glock shooter.

I personally shoot 99.9% of all Glocks that I encounter with the rear sight dead center and get POI @ POA for windage. Elevation varies and the Gen4 Glock 21 is known to shoot high as a sight mechanical problem, which often a different height sight combo can fix. Are there "band aid" fixes for the the issues exhibited by shooters when it comes to the Glock? Sure, but I have always said that if the weapon is mechanically correct / accurate, I prefer to fix the shooter. Fixing the shooter and not the weapon is a final fix and the shooter learns a lot about their shooting style, marksmanship and how that can translate to various weapon platforms and not just the Glock. It makes them a better overall shooter. I once heard GJM mention that the Glock is an easy pistol to get good with quickly, but is hard to master. I agree with this and it is even more difficult for some shooters than others.

[john c]

Surf, I appreciate your comments. As someone who has "solved" the left shooting issue with rather extreme sight adjustments, I'm very keen to learn to work the trigger better. Do you have any insight on how to press the trigger for better results?

I'm one of those guys who only has this issue with Glocks (and now my p320). But now that I think about it, almost all of my other pistols have adjustable sights. Have I always moved the sights around until the group is centered, covering up bad technique? This topic has me thinking about this. Regardless, I'm learning from this thread, and I'm working on learning better technique to at least get better.

[Luke]

I'm with him ^^ thanks surf. Can you point us in the direction of the videos you've made?

[Surf]

My video's are no longer available online. I do know that someone had ripped the trigger skills video and I think it is still out there somewhere. It was a long video about 20 mins or so. I had a huge response from many who greatly improved or completely resolved their own Glock issues using some of the techniques outlined in the video. While there is a lot of good info in that video, there was quite a bit that could not be included in the video. Also the video is a few years old and things that are in that particular video that may have evolved. Again no single fix works for everyone and often times it can be not just one thing, but several things that contribute to the issues seen on paper. The correct diagnosis can be difficult and then the correct fix can be even more problematic.

[john c]

Surf, do you recall the title to the video?

[GRV]

During the Glock transition, of all the shooters we encountered who had issues even those with dramatic push issues, we were overwhelmingly successful with fixing the majority of those shooters. We only had a small handful, maybe 4 or 5 individuals who would not take to the techniques we support but I do feel that they could have been successful. However, Some people just don't take to instruction or are too stubborn / set in their ways, or stupid. I feel that I can pretty much fix most if not all shooters who have Glock shooting issues, if the shooter is receptive and performs as instructed. A shooter can easily revert to old ways, so correct repetition to ingrain is extremely critical, even more so if they have issues on the Glock than say another pistol. Also there are several fixes for any number of various issues that can manifest, so there is not just one blanket fix. There are so many nuances or possible combinations that can cause an issue that it is nearly impossible for an average shooter to fix the problem at least without some type of professional help. I also find that the majority of your average firearm instructors are not experienced enough to fix dramatic issues in a Glock shooter.


I understand and respect the hesitance to post such techniques given their highly individual and nuanced nature, but could you give a few example summaries? I've seen you talk before about the "hump" being a factor, and how grip reductions can help sometimes, but presumably the solutions you're talking about here are strictly technique. So, I'm very interested in seeing what sorts of techniques you teach to work around the suboptimal Glock design choices.

[Irelander]

Surf,

I hope you don't mind me posting this. I found in on another thread here on PF (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?14022-How-Important-Is-The-Perfect-Grip/page2).


https://youtu.be/L6-eJTS_5qg

[Luke]

Is that the video surf made?

If so, when I hook my finger like he does with a gap on the side of the frame I do get a very nice trigger pull with no movement, but my hand is basically hanging onto the side of the pistol. Feels very weird..

[john c]

Thanks, Irelander and Surf

[Surf]

Is that the video surf made?

If so, when I hook my finger like he does with a gap on the side of the frame I do get a very nice trigger pull with no movement, but my hand is basically hanging onto the side of the pistol. Feels very weird..Yes that is the video I was talking about. I advocate most pressure coming from a side to side clamp as opposed to a frontstrap to backstrap pressure. Of course we have a solid 360 contact wrap, but most of the control force comes from side to side pressure and from the support hand. Again this technique is not for everyone and I myself might teach others alternate methods. This is just the primary method that I prefer and am a proponent of.

[GJM]

I am very curious to try the new Apex trigger for the Glock:


http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?171852-The-Apex-Tactical-flat-Glock-trigger

[Up1911Fan]

I am very curious to try the new Apex trigger for the Glock:


http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?171852-The-Apex-Tactical-flat-Glock-trigger

Same here!

[P.E. Kelley]

I have worked my way through this thread and is anyone here left handed?
I have heard about this "issue" many times over the years and all of my Glocks (heck, most all my handguns except an old DW44 revo)
shoot windage perfect with the sights centered in the slide.
Without stepping on too many toes, it is generally (as other have pointed out) a trigger control issue.

[CSW]

I have worked my way through this thread and is anyone here left handed?
I have heard about this "issue" many times over the years and all of my Glocks (heck, most all my handguns except an old DW44 revo)
shoot windage perfect with the sights centered in the slide.
Without stepping on too many toes, it is generally (as other have pointed out) a trigger control issue.

Yes sir, I am left handed, and before becoming more aware of trigger finger placement, pulling thru the trigger and proper grip I was doing just the opposite; low and right.
FYI:
Consistently shooting Glock 34, gen 3, with Proctor Y sights, correctly centered [green FO].
Stock Glock 34 trigger.
Talon stick-ons with rubber texture.

It was all practice and technique that really helped me. Countless one hole drills, and dot torture targets. Dry firing at home, to establish muscle memory with the trigger surface, and my placement of my finger on the trigger in the same place every time. So yes, trigger control does play a major part on my thinking.

[LSP552]

2nd and 3rd gen Glocks tend to get pretty slick with age and hard use. I don't have enough time with the 4th gen Glocks to know if that holds true or not. They are considerably stickier out of the box. One of the contributing factors to trigger control issues is keeping the gun anchored in your hands, allowing your to isolate the trigger press. For me personally, the addition of Talon grips (rubber on my carry Glocks) or other grip tape/stippling makes a HUGH difference with my grip consistency, especially at speed. It's hard to get an proper trigger press if the gun is moving around in your hand. I think this gets overlooked with carry guns.

I believe that most of the POA/POI impact differences with Glocks are grip and trigger related. However, I do have a G34 and a 2nd gen 19 that require a slight right deflection of the sight.

[imp1295]

So,
Off to the range today to give "Hook and Curl" a try. My performance with the P2000 V2 LEM was abysmal overall - the hook and curl didn't seem to have any effect on any anticipation issues. Which, it typically my biggest challenge with the platform.

So, left bias with a Glock. That's the questions, right? So, I took along the Gen4 G19 - tried hook and curl with it and what do you know. B-8 bull at 10 yds and they were all in the 10 ring - No left bias like when I used the middle of my pad. So, I'm definitely pushing with more trigger finger. It almost felt like the tip of my finger only. But, I would pause and visually check my finger position and it was on the entire face of the trigger. Big, aha moment for me. Couldn't do anything closer than 10yds at the new local range I am currently going to. But, with this knowledge I'm curious to see how Dot Torture now fares.

Splits were really no difference when I ran drills like "The Test".

[Nephrology]

As one data point, I usually have the "1 inch left at 7-10 yards" myself, at least historically, with most of my Gen 3 9mms - especially my G17. Yesterday I put a box through my new Gen 4 Glock 35 - all rounds dead center. Sights were adjusted to be centered in the dovetail so it wasn't an issue of the problem being "corrected" by a loose rear sight. I am now strongly looking at getting my hands on a few more gen 4s...

[Larry Sellers]

Dredging up the dead....I have this same issue...left and SLIGHTLY low of the X. Would the trigger stripe drill (ron avery) in the vertical orientation diagnose and or teach the shooter to fix the problem?

[GJM]

Dredging up the dead....I have this same issue...left and SLIGHTLY low of the X. Would the trigger stripe drill (ron avery) in the vertical orientation diagnose and or teach the shooter to fix the problem?

Gen 3 or 4? If 4, try some more finger, and if Gen 3 try less.

[spinmove_]

Gen 3 or 4? If 4, try some more finger, and if Gen 3 try less.

Personally I've found that more finger on a Glock usually is the best way to go. The trigger stripe drill would help diagnose the issue, yes.

The bottom line is that you're either not finishing flat on the trigger or you're pushing the frame at some point, typically through sympathetic response of your shooting hand.

[warpedcamshaft]

Dredging up the dead....I have this same issue...left and SLIGHTLY low of the X. Would the trigger stripe drill (ron avery) in the vertical orientation diagnose and or teach the shooter to fix the problem?

What does your 25 yard 10 round freestyle slowfire on a B8 target look like? Can you shoot above a 75 or 80?

[Larry Sellers]

Gen 3 or 4? If 4, try some more finger, and if Gen 3 try less.


Gen 4, using the beavertail from the medium backstrap, but I have it cut just below the trigger housing pin so I get the benefit from the beavertail without making the grip larger with the serrated trigger as well. I have tried to sink more finger into the trigger and it seems to have helped but I consistently get that slight left of the X group.

Tomorrow I will go out and try the 25 yard freestyle group and see what my score is.http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160225/a0433ce3ffd23491d238435a74ef5c73.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160225/73cfe4fee4bae720584286a95e6f0f79.jpg

The second photo is more representative of what I'm getting with consistency.

I have 2 identical g 19's one with the y notch sights and the other with the defoor black/black sights. Other than shooting the proctor's a bit higher they both group the same to the left of the X.

[Rustin]

I've shot thousands of rounds through stock 9mm Glocks, 17,26 and 19. Always high and left. I can shoot more accurately with my lcr with slow fire. I can shoot one ragged hole, but its at The 11 o'clock position. The glock shines when I don't think and just shoot, but trying to hit bullseyes is a daunting task. I shoot poa with 1911s.

My last trip was embarrassing. My g17 hasn't had a single problem. I learned a bad habit in the days prior to our range trip. I was concentrating so hard on the trigger pull that I wasn't holding the pistol firm enough. Double feed three times in a row. Tried a 2 finger hold and it replicated the stoppage. Gripped it right and no further problems.

My concern is that although I was limp wristing, its not like I had a feather grip.I would expect it to jam with a 2 finger hold but I've never experienced a two hand failure like that. I shot weak and strong hand only with no problems. Come to think of it, I was loading up and I never top it off, but I could pull the slide back a bit and it would stick slightly out of battery. I pointed the muzzle towards the ground and 50% of the time it would return to battery. Lubed it a bit and it went away for about a week.

I would maybe blame the crud build up but the 2,000 round tests usually go pretty smoothly, mine has had only 700 rounds through it without cleaning.

I'm gonna try some trigger work but Id rather keep em stock. If I can shoot a stock p320 better I'll make the switch. I love my Glocks for the same reason everyone does, but I feel the pistol should be optimal out of the box. Its great that there are so many aftermarket options but that stuff adds up quickly and essentially transforms it into a different gun. Maybe some things aren't meant to be...

Eta- i have been experimenting with more finger on the trigger, treating it more like my lcr than my 1911. Its helped during dry fire but I haven't made it to the range.

[Wondering Beard]

Gen 4, using the beavertail from the medium backstrap, but I have it cut just below the trigger housing pin so I get the benefit from the beavertail without making the grip larger with the serrated trigger as well. I have tried to sink more finger into the trigger and it seems to have helped but I consistently get that slight left of the X group.

Tomorrow I will go out and try the 25 yard freestyle group and see what my score is.http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160225/a0433ce3ffd23491d238435a74ef5c73.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160225/73cfe4fee4bae720584286a95e6f0f79.jpg

The second photo is more representative of what I'm getting with consistency.

I have 2 identical g 19's one with the y notch sights and the other with the defoor black/black sights. Other than shooting the proctor's a bit higher they both group the same to the left of the X.

Question: are you pulling through the trigger press from the beginning (including the take up) in one smooth motion (as if it were a revolver), or are you starting your press at the wall? I'm just wondering, in the case of the latter, if you might be adding a little sideways motion to the trigger.

[JHC]

Gen 3 or 4? If 4, try some more finger, and if Gen 3 try less.

More than once in the past year I've pulled a not shot for a long time Glock to the range and saw it's POI to the right. And looking down at the rear sight - it's shaded to the right of center . . . Oops. :o

Biggest changes in that time, aggressive grip and aggressively more finger.

[M2CattleCo]

I shoot Glocks somewhat left too. Always have. I have a 34 right now that is kicking my ass shooting about 4" left at 20 yards. My carry 17K puts 'em right down the middle, but that 34 shoots left, even on a different frame.

I shot a P226 yesterday just to break away from the Glock to see how I did and I hate to admit it, but it was effortless to make holes where I wanted 'em compared to the Glocks.....

[BillSWPA]

I used to have to move my Glock rear sights a bit to the right, but the more I learn about good trigger control, the more I find I can just put the sight right in the middle of the dovetail and expect it to work well.

[LSP552]

I shoot Glocks somewhat left too. Always have. I have a 34 right now that is kicking my ass shooting about 4" left at 20 yards. My carry 17K puts 'em right down the middle, but that 34 shoots left, even on a different frame.

I shot a P226 yesterday just to break away from the Glock to see how I did and I hate to admit it, but it was effortless to make holes where I wanted 'em compared to the Glocks.....

Life would be perfect if my 226R weighed what my G17 does. I have always found the 226 to be incredibly easy to shoot at any distance. They also have, for me, very consistent sight return and are not sensitive to grip pressure.

[EVP]

Glocks have always shot POA/POI for me.

If I may ask another data point, for those that shot LEM triggers and Glocks, have they shot straight as well?

[Rustin]

Now that I have a better understanding of what Surf was describing concerning the finger contact on the frame, I don't know if I can rectify this issue.

With my hand size, I can't shift my grip around enough to avoid this without sacrificing a proper and intuitive grip. The bore axis is too low. No issue on my 1911 of course. I'm gonna try the p320 and ppq or something with a higher bore axis.

This thread was truly an eye opener. I've spent untold hours reading about Glocks for years and this thread is the first I've heard of this issue. Thanks Surf.

[noguns]

I'm not as good as most here. But if I feel I'm pushing shots I will try shooting very slowly weak hand only. It eliminates any variables of f$%& up on my part.
I can hold a 3 " group on hand between my 4 glocks 17 shots at 21 yard(furthest my local range goes).
3 are centered. I have a gen 4 19 that shoots slightly RIGHT.

[M2CattleCo]

Now that I have a better understanding of what Surf was describing concerning the finger contact on the frame, I don't know if I can rectify this issue.

With my hand size, I can't shift my grip around enough to avoid this without sacrificing a proper and intuitive grip. The bore axis is too low. No issue on my 1911 of course. I'm gonna try the p320 and ppq or something with a higher bore axis.

This thread was truly an eye opener. I've spent untold hours reading about Glocks for years and this thread is the first I've heard of this issue. Thanks Surf.

Same here. I just can't bend my finger down in the middle like that! I think a Gen3 or a large backstrap on a Gen4 makes it easier to keep from axleing the frame.