Shield or P30 SK or something else?

[RJ]

Looking for guidance / suggestions on a 9mm CCW.

I currently have a 9mm M&P FS and a HK VP9 for SD, range and training use.

I would like to acquire a future compact / smaller 9mm for CCW. I've looked at and like both the Shield in 9mm and the HK P30 SK LEM. Thing is, I don't have huge experience in CCW to make a choice, or know whether I am overlooking a good option.

Any thoughts on the Shield vs. P30SK vs. ?

My current plan is to find a range, shoot them both and pick the one I do better with. Most likely the M&P FS will go to fund the purchase of a new CCW.

I like staying with HK, I really like how the VP9 shoots. Because I'm so familiar with my FS9, I'd also be comfortable with a Shield.

Thoughts?

[LOKNLOD]

I think the Walter PPS makes a good smaller, flatter option to go along with the VP9.

[breakingtime91]

Looking for guidance / suggestions on a 9mm CCW.

I currently have a 9mm M&P FS and a HK VP9 for SD, range and training use.

I would like to acquire a future compact / smaller 9mm for CCW. I've looked at and like both the Shield in 9mm and the HK P30 SK LEM. Thing is, I don't have huge experience in CCW to make a choice, or know whether I am overlooking a good option.

Any thoughts on the Shield vs. P30SK vs. ?

My current plan is to find a range, shoot them both and pick the one I do better with. Most likely the M&P FS will go to fund the purchase of a new CCW.

I like staying with HK, I really like how the VP9 shoots. Because I'm so familiar with my FS9, I'd also be comfortable with a Shield.

Thoughts?

whatever your choice, I would try to pick something that mirrors your main training/house gun. For me that combo is going to be the G19 and G43. G19 will get carried whenever possible and the G43 will fill the roll in NPE or when its obnoxiously hot out. That way everything is similar, from carry position to the sights and trigger on the gun.

[breakingtime91]

I think the Walter PPS makes a good smaller, flatter option to go along with the VP9.

that's an awesome point. That would be my suggestion as well

[gtmtnbiker98]

P30SK! My sample has a better trigger than my full sized P30V1's that have thousands of rounds. My P30SK is breaking at 4.75 out of the box.

[olstyn]

If you're sticking with the VP9 and ditching the M&P, I'd recommend going all-in on paddle mag release guns. HK P30SK, Walther PPS, or Walther P99c would be my list for small carry guns of that type. That way you don't confuse yourself and go for the button instead of the paddle or vice versa. The PPS and P30SK LEM are probably the two best choices there, as they'd completely mimic the VP9's manual of arms - paddles and a consistent trigger. If you don't mind DA/SA, the P99c is a great option too, but it does have two (well, sort of three) different trigger pulls.

[ReverendMeat]

If you want something thin, PPS. P30SK would be cool but if your primary range gun is the VP9 I'd just wait for the inevitable VP9SK.

[TGS]

I would try to stay somewhat related with your platforms.

I would love to have a P2000sk or P30sk.....but I wouldn't get them unless my daily carry was also a DA/SA.

Since you're heavily invested into SFA pistols.....I'd stay that way for a gun that will naturally spend even less time training with.

[TAZ]

If you're going to stick with a SF for your primary defensive and training gun, I'd second the idea of a CCW being the same. The LEM is NOT anything like the VP9. I have a P30 LEM and its night and day different from the VP9. I'm sure for many here who shoot much more than me wouldn't have an issue with the repeated transition from LEM to SF; I'm not that good though.

Why not just carry the VP9? I have no problem concealing it as an EDC gun. The only time the G42 makes an appearance is when I'm in gym shorts or a suit that requires a tucked shirt.

[saints75]

I like the Shield. I have shot it a lot. I am not an H&K fan. I have shot them, don't care for them.

[GJM]

If you want to keep the M&P FS, I would go 9C or Shield.

If you want to keep the VP9, I would get a G26 or wait for the VP9C.

If you want to keep the hardware to a minimum, and focus on software, I would sell everything and get a pair of G19's or a 19/26, 19/43 combo.

I think SLG's advice is pretty solid on shooting one gun until you reach a predefined level, at which point you can chase rabbits.

[breakingtime91]

If you want to keep the M&P FS, I would go 9C or Shield.

If you want to keep the VP9, I would get a G26 or wait for the VP9C.

If you want to keep the hardware to a minimum, and focus on software, I would sell everything and get a pair of G19's or a 19/26, 19/43 combo.

I think SLG's advice is pretty solid on shooting one gun until you reach a predefined level, at which point you can chase rabbits.

please listen to this post!

[RJ]

If you want something thin, PPS. P30SK would be cool but if your primary range gun is the VP9 I'd just wait for the inevitable VP9SK.

Thanks all. I'm in no rush on this. I will keep using the VP9 for training, see about whether it might CCW for me, and get a price on selling the FS9. I actually like the paddles on the VP9, too.

So basically focus on software using the VP9. Then when/if a VP9 compact comes out, I'll see if I even need it.

A thing I've learned around here is to follow these rules on spending money on guns:

1) Is the purchase for training skills?
2) Is the purchase for training ammo?

If the answer to questions 1) and 2) is no, I really start wondering, why I am getting my credit card out. Hence asking for input from ya'll.

Thanks for all the advice.

Rich

[RJ]

please listen to this post!

Solid copy.

[GJM]

A thing I've learned around here is to follow these rules on spending money on guns:

1) Is the purchase for training skills?
2) Is the purchase for training ammo?

If the answer to questions 1) and 2) is no, I really start wondering, why I am getting my credit card out.



I would add:

3) is the purchase to add another so you have a second or third of, for example, your VP9.

[RJ]

I would add:

3) is the purchase to add another so you have a second or third of, for example, your VP9.

Agree, and valid point.

However, budget is limited by She Who Must Be Obeyed. Hence emphasis on 1) training and 2) ammo.

[Frank R]

Sig P320SC

[Luke]

..shooting one gun until you reach a predefined level, at which point you can chase rabbits...

Care to elaborate on this?

[David S.]

Care to elaborate on this?

Oh my. here we go again.

;)

[OhioFinance]

I agree with the above poster. I find the PPS a very "shield-like" companion to the VP9. Plus they can be had for sub-$470 for the first time I can ever remember.

[LSP972]

Care to elaborate on this?

The great majority of U.S. gun owners think they can buy skill. They end up joining the "Flavor of the Month" club, and/or establishing a "carry rotation". You do NOT see this among those who have carried professionally for any length of time; they simply know better.

In other words, instead of building competence and familiarization (which means they can operate the machine without having think about it- a CRITICAL skill in a lethal force encounter) with their carry piece, they jump from gun to gun, looking for that one special gat which will transform them into whoever their personal gun 'celebrity' favorite may be.

That is a bit harsh, and indeed somewhat of an exaggeration… but not so much, perhaps. Truthfully, every time I hear or see written the words "tactical", "platform", "carry rotation" and a few other popular buzzwords, my eyes start rolling back in my head.

What GJM means is pick a gun, and learn to shoot. YOU learn to shoot, by building basic marksmanship responses into your personal hard drive. Once you have these, they transfer to other guns. Get good, THEN you can leap about the rigging, sampling this or that, to your heart's content… and you won't compromise your basic ability. We all have done it, and some of us still do. But what makes us different from the average fellow is that we (speaking collectively here) can demonstrate, on demand, reasonable levels of skill with whatever you put into our hands. This kind of ability cannot be purchased, or quickly gained. It takes TIME; years, actually, of shooting to performance standards… where somebody is watching you, timing you, and scoring your results.

All of this might sound like a lot of elitist bullshit to you. If you take it as such, okay; but understand it was not offered in that vein. There is nothing magical about shooting skill… but at the same time, it is not something one is automatically endowed with (I'm a man; this is man-shit; ergo, I know it!).

You'd be surprised how many guys actually think that; consciously, or otherwise.;)

.

[Luke]

I understand that. I was wanting to know when your good enough to start chasing the flavor of the month. I constantly swap with everything, not just guns, everything (minus the wife, guess I'll keep her a while). So I'd like to know what a SME's definition of good enough to start chasing flavor a is. And this is a serious question. I respect his opinion and would like to here it.

[LSP972]

Fair enough. I'm not trying to speak for him; your question hit a nerve with me and I felt compelled to answer. Besides, I think he's in the bush right now; may be a day or two before he CAN answer.

As to when one is "good enough"… after some thought, I cannot think of a more open-ended question. IOW, ask ten people, and you'll get ten different answers. Luck with that…;)

.

[Luke]

Didn't mean to strike any of your nerves. And that is exactly what I thought so i was curious as to his thoughts. Is it a X.XX FAST? bill drill? El presidente? Certain hours of paid training? Rank in uspsa/idpa? I feel like I am above average shooter (especially compared to the general public) but I'm not gonna be winning any compititions anytime soon or thinking about my M/GM card.

[GJM]

Didn't mean to strike any of your nerves. And that is exactly what I thought so i was curious as to his thoughts. Is it a X.XX FAST? bill drill? El presidente? Certain hours of paid training? Rank in uspsa/idpa? I feel like I am above average shooter (especially compared to the general public) but I'm not gonna be winning any compititions anytime soon or thinking about my M/GM card.

I was repeating SLG's advice which as I recall, used USPSA B class as a threshold of technical shooting skill, before which you would be better off sticking with one platform.

[Luke]

Thank you sir!

[RJ]

I was repeating SLG's advice which as I recall, used USPSA B class as a threshold of technical shooting skill, before which you would be better off sticking with one platform.

Thanks, actually I kind of had the same question, so that works for me very well as a measurable goal.

Once I get back to FL this fall (we're out RVing across the country at the moment; tonight we are in Durango CO) I plan to start with USPSA with the VP9. Getting to be a USPSA B shooter is something I can put on my radar. Might be a season or two; I'm starting from scratch.

Rich

[GJM]

There is a USPSA match next Saturday in Grand Junction, if you are still in that area.

[taadski]

There is a USPSA match next Saturday in Grand Junction, if you are still in that area.

Normally correct. Third weekend. This month however the match is postponed a week til the 27th b/c of the Mile High Showdown next weekend.


t

[fiona]

P30SK
http://wigunpics.science/15/g.png

[DocSabo40]

If you already shoot the VP9 well, I would at least give the P30SK a try. Glock makes a good pistol, but if you are used to the VP9 a G19 will be a sidegrade at best. After you replace the sights and trigger that is.

[TGS]

If you already shoot the VP9 well, I would at least give the P30SK a try. Glock makes a good pistol, but if you are used to the VP9 a G19 will be a sidegrade at best. After you replace the sights and trigger that is.

Why? What does shooting the VP9 well have to do with a P30sk?

The P30sk is a completely different pistol than the VP9. Besides aesthetics, the mag release, and it being made by HK, there is absolutely nothing similar. It requires a different manual of arms such as decocking at a hard break or before moving....which as much as I love DA/SAs, it absolutely is something that needs to be practiced until it's subconscious......which is unlikely given it's not his primary platform. The trigger is also completely different, and while good trigger control learned on a DA/SA will usually translate to good trigger control on a SFA pistol, the reverse does not usually hold true for beginner and intermediate shooters...which means any time he puts in on the VP9 is pretty much useless towards his mastery of the DA/SA.

From a manual of arms and shooting standpoint, a Glock is a million times more "compatible" and similar to a VP9 than a P30sk.

[DocSabo40]

Who said anything about DA/SA? He's looking at an LEM.

[TGS]

Woops, good catch!

[s0nspark]

I currently have a Springfield XDs 9mm as my smaller carry option slash backup gun... My primary is an HK VP9. LOVE the VP9 :)

As soon as HK releases a VP9sk my XDs will probably be mothballed. I've looked at the P30sk and like the size (although it is considerably wider than the XDs) and probably wouldn't mind an V1 Light LEM version but I really like the VP9 trigger and would prefer to stay with something as similar as possible.

[LostDuke]

I think the Walter PPS makes a good smaller, flatter option to go along with the VP9.

I don't even need to type it. It might not be fashionable because it has been around for a while, but the PPS is like Sophia Loren compared to one of the latest starlets.

[RJ]

I don't even need to type it. It might not be fashionable because it has been around for a while, but the PPS is like Sophia Loren compared to one of the latest starlets.

Big fan of Sophia Loren. :cool:

Thanks for the PPS tips, will look into that.

[RJ]

Got a chance to look at a P30SK LEM today at my local gun shop.

I did not like. :|

Trigger felt like it took forever to pull, and was it heavy. I was also surprised how fat it was.

Anyways, I'll continue looking, but P30SK not looking like a good candidate.

[OnionsAndDragons]

Rich, I've seen some smokin good deals on the PPS online recently. In the $350-375 range.

I like mine enough that even seeing that didn't make me regret paying about $200 more for it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[ffhounddog]

Ironically, when I wanted a single stack I got a Beretta Nano and a Kimber 9mm 1911 Aegis. Two opposite ends but the Nano is on me at all times in the house. Accurate and better than the mk40 I had it replace. Got a second one because it was going for $250 for a memorial day sale. I prefer the grip width better compared to the Shield. Shield was too thin in my hands. Added Talon grips to the Nano and it handles better now than before really well.

I got the gun because to me the trigger was similar to a LEM trigger in striker mode to my crazy mind. A little longer to get back on Target compared to my VP9 and P30 but its a compromise in size.

[RJ]

Rich, I've seen some smokin good deals on the PPS online recently. In the $350-375 range.

I like mine enough that even seeing that didn't make me regret paying about $200 more for it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Thanks...good tip.

I was going to ask, since I'm still learning and all, but what, if any would be the differences between the VP9 and the PPS? (Other than size, mag capacity, etc.)

Unless I am missing it, I mean. They are both:

- 9 mm
- Striker fire (consistent trigger pull)
- Ambi Paddle mag release
- Have a red cocking indicator
- 6 lb trigger (I thought the PPS is 6.1, the VP9 is close, right?)

Are the sights plastic or steel? Oh, and is the guide rod steel on a PPS?

[olstyn]

Are the sights plastic or steel? Oh, and is the guide rod steel on a PPS?

IIRC the stock sights are plastic, but it is compatible with the same sights as the PPQ and P99, so there are a decent range of choices out there for aftermarket replacements in steel, in any of plain, fiber, or tritium. The guide rod is plastic, but if you "need" it to be steel, check this option (http://btguiderods.com/category/walther/pps/) out. I have one in my P99c, and it works well. (several thousand rounds on it now with no issues.)

[OnionsAndDragons]

Olstyn covered it.

The only other difference I can cite is one of my favorite features: it comes with a crappy Gadget feature.

The striker can be thumbed to prevent trigger movement while reholstering; which for me makes it an ideal subcompact for aiwb.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RJ]

IIRC the stock sights are plastic, but it is compatible with the same sights as the PPQ and P99, so there are a decent range of choices out there for aftermarket replacements in steel, in any of plain, fiber, or tritium. The guide rod is plastic, but if you "need" it to be steel, check this option (http://btguiderods.com/category/walther/pps/) out. I have one in my P99c, and it works well. (several thousand rounds on it now with no issues.)


Olstyn covered it.

The only other difference I can cite is one of my favorite features: it comes with a crappy Gadget feature.

The striker can be thumbed to prevent trigger movement while reholstering; which for me makes it an ideal subcompact for aiwb.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks...very interesting. Will definitely try and find one here in Tampa to fondle...

[breakingtime91]

So, my original plan was to get a g43 or g26. I handled both and disliked both compared to the shield... FML

[Blayglock]

Did someone say PPS with 10-8 sites and kydex?

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/04/78f8b7176f919b497773e54cfc8d5348.jpg

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/04/4b9f2fc0aa5907f085c12bc2f9be4936.jpg

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/09/04/b9d73a29b71301c95ee818f51cfcbb18.jpg

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

[RJ]

^^^ Staaaahp! You guys are killing me. :cool:

[LOKNLOD]

I feel like I should post my PPS with Trijicon HDs in a Keeper Errand, now.

[RJ]

Must...resist...clicking on Bud's URL...Must...

[farscott]

CDNN has V3 P30Sk with safeties for $540. http://www.cdnnsports.com/email-specials-html/hk-p30sk-subcompact-9mm-v3-safety.html#.Veo2d_ZViko

[Sigfan26]

Picked up a PPS for a beater/gym gun... I'm impressed!

[MRW]

I picked up a PPS to go with my VP9. It works but the mag release, although a paddle, is not the same as a VP9's. The shape and location are different enough to require some training to be comfortable. It is not the same as switching between a G19/G19 and a G26.

[Chef]

Am I the only one that has a fat enough palm so as to get blood blisters when reloading the PPS? Unless I break my grip and hold the pistol with bird finger and thumb. I got rid of mine because of that and switched to the shield.

[RJ]

Got a chance to look at a P30SK LEM today at my local gun shop.

I did not like. :|

Trigger felt like it took forever to pull, and was it heavy. I was also surprised how fat it was.

Anyways, I'll continue looking, but P30SK not looking like a good candidate.

Ok, I was out doing my morning walk today, and got back to thinking about the P30SK again. I like 10 rounds. I am thinking the concept of a heavier, longer trigger pull is not such a bad idea in a SD situation.

I went back and looked at the HK web site description of the "P30SK 9mm (V1) “light LEM DOA w/two 10rd mags – 730901K A5" model, and had a few questions.

Do any of ya'll know:

- Is the LEM DAO trigger "exactly" the same pull, every time? In other words, with a round chambered, and unholstered, does the trigger change after I've fired round 1?

- I can use my VP9 magazines, right? They will just stick out the bottom?

- There is no traditional "safety", I would have to get the TDA model with safety/decocker for that, right?

[breakingtime91]

Ok, I was out doing my morning walk today, and got back to thinking about the P30SK again. I like 10 rounds. I am thinking the concept of a heavier, longer trigger pull is not such a bad idea in a SD situation.

I went back and looked at the HK web site description of the "P30SK 9mm (V1) “light LEM DOA w/two 10rd mags – 730901K A5" model, and had a few questions.

Do any of ya'll know:

- Is the LEM DAO trigger "exactly" the same pull, every time? In other words, with a round chambered, and unholstered, does the trigger change after I've fired round 1?

- I can use my VP9 magazines, right? They will just stick out the bottom?

- There is no traditional "safety", I would have to get the TDA model with safety/decocker for that, right?

Yes to all. Only time Lem changes if you have a failure to fire, then it'll be heavier when you try for a re strike

[LSP972]

I went back and looked at the HK web site description of the "P30SK 9mm (V1) “light LEM DOA w/two 10rd mags – 730901K A5" model, and had a few questions.

Do any of ya'll know:

- Is the LEM DAO trigger "exactly" the same pull, every time? In other words, with a round chambered, and unholstered, does the trigger change after I've fired round 1?

- I can use my VP9 magazines, right? They will just stick out the bottom?

- There is no traditional "safety", I would have to get the TDA model with safety/decocker for that, right?

Yes, the pull is the same from shot to shot, or every time the slide is cycled. BTW, the LEM is not a "DAO" trigger, and in fact the actual term DAO (Double Action Only) is an oxymoron; because so-called DAO triggers work via trigger cocking only- which is one/singular- and the word double means "two". None of these facts have prevented the total twisting of these terms into incorrect common usage, via the same non-logic that caused a police administrator somewhere to proclaim the S&W trigger-cocking-only Gen3 pistols to be "14-15 shot revolvers"… idiots like that are why we have confusing terminology. And the striker mechanisms have further muddied the waters.

But fear not; the P-series V1 LEM is a uniform trigger pull, from shot to shot

Yes, you can use your VP9 magazines- which are really P30 magazines since that pistol came first. And going further back, the P30 magazines are just stretched USP Compact magazines. You cannot use a USPc mag in a P30 or VP9 because it will not be long enough; but a P30/VP9 magazine will fit in:

P30
VP9
P2000
P2000SK
P30SK
USP Compact

HK produces versions of the LEM action with manual safety levers. Personally, I have always been puzzled as to exactly WHY someone would want that; the LEM is the consummate point'n'pull pistol, and a manual safety just gets in the way of that. Hey, I get why some folks want a manual safety, I'm not arguing that point. But why not just get a 1911, is my question?

Anyway, I have seen a few references to P30SK's so equipped, but AFAIK, a "regular" V1 LEM does not have an added manual safety lever.

You said "longer, heavier pull is not such a bad idea…"

That's true, but I think you're making the same mistake re the LEM that most folks do. The long take-up of the LEM does NOT contribute to resistance of pulling the trigger. I frankly don't know WHY it is there, from an HK engineering/design standpoint, but I do know what it does. It provides a fudge factor to those who simply cannot- or will not- keep their finger off the trigger prior to shooting. Sometimes called "trigger checking", this refers to those who simply gotta touch the trigger, as if to make sure its still there.

IOW, when you deliberately pull the trigger on a LEM pistol (that the slide has been cycled on; the LEM action requires the slide to pre-cock the mechanism. Otherwise, you'll get a hard pull that is hard for its entire travel), you breeze right through all that initial take-up and hit the sear release point… referred to as "the wall" by some here, and I suppose that's as good a descriptor as any. The point here is, the LEM trigger is actually a short, relatively crisp and quick trigger break; as opposed to say, the long resisting stroke of a Kahr pistol, or Sig DAK.

I apologize for the wandering/rambling aspect of this quite muddy post. Its just that there is a lot more complexity to this trigger thing than many think, despite the efforts of some to make it simple. And unfortunately, the HK LEM is, without doubt, the most misunderstood trigger action out there, in terms of internet/forum discussions. That's too bad, because it really isn't that complicated, and in some opinions (mine included) is head and shoulders above everything else out there for a "street"/self defense trigger.

So, buy a P30SK V1 with confidence.

.

[RJ]

^^^ Got it. Will digest this today. Thanks very much to you and Breakingtime for the info.

Did not know about the mag compatibility list; that is good to know. P2000SK, hmmmm...

Edit: It is possible the P30SK I fondled was a TDA. That one would be a heavy first pull, right?

[breakingtime91]

^^^ Got it. Will digest this today. Thanks very much to you and Breakingtime for the info.

Did not know about the mag compatibility list; that is good to know. P2000SK, hmmmm...

Edit: It is possible the P30SK I fondled was a TDA. That one would be a heavy first pull, right?

ya and the hammer would stay back until decock.

[LSP972]

Edit: It is possible the P30SK I fondled was a TDA. That one would be a heavy first pull, right?

Yes; and would be properly identified as a V3.

.

[OnionsAndDragons]

In a run of the mill gun shop, ask to see the box if YOU aren't sure. Don't expect them to be right. I've seen lots of lgs state a gun is LEM, when it is just the LE package that HK does w night sights and extra mag.

All of the TDA versions will have the decocker gizmo on the rear of the slide, right by the hammer spur. LEM will have a spur less hammer, no decocker gizmo unless you are in Europe.

A LEM gun will have a full-on DA type pull if the slide has not cycled. If the slide is cycled it will be more like a 2-stage long gun trigger(not exactly, but that's the easiest way for me to compare it ), longish take up with no resistance, clean break at the end.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[RJ]

^^^ Got it. Will digest this today. Thanks very much to you and Breakingtime for the info.

Did not know about the mag compatibility list; that is good to know. P2000SK, hmmmm...

Edit: It is possible the P30SK I fondled was a TDA. That one would be a heavy first pull, right?

Ok, forgive me for going on and on about this, but I don't have anyone to ask I can trust.

So doing research into HKs over at the "pro" forum, surprisingly, I got bounced back here to this article by Nyeti:

http://pistol-training.com/archives/8549

LSP, this is what you are getting at, right? Hmmmm...very interesting.

Ok, so a few more questions. Say, I opt to purchase a P2000 LEM in 9mm.

I see it can load 10 and 13 round mags. But the P2000SK can load 10 rounders also, but looks a lot shorter than the P2000. How does that work? (Meaning, a P2000 looks Glock 19 size (5.0" high?), but the SK looks a LOT stubbier. How is that?)

Is the P2000 still in 2015 production? Meaning, are the ones NIB on Gunbroker recent production, or have they been hanging on shelves for a while? I assume the German production date coding system is used on P2000?

Looks like the P2000 is an evolution from the USPc, for CCW. It was developed for the US CBP, right? Ok, then since it was introduced, have there been any major ECPs or running changes to be aware of? (Context is a NOS gun, older date code, but still new.)

Last one, again on the design, there is really no "later" HK LEM trigger compact pistol of size similar to the P2000 out there, right?

I realize if I go with a CCW with an LEM I'd need to adjust to my game gun. Its just that I find LSP and Nyeti's reasons for LEM for street use very compelling.

Thanks for any thoughts on this.

Rich

[GJM]

1) Plenty of new ones, like these at TopGunSupply for 639 new.

2) YVK sent me a picture last night comparing his 2000SK to his P2000. The difference in butt length is like one 9mm cartridge width. I think he finds his SK no easier to conceal than his P2000, and is going to a G43 for thin carry. (note, he has bought a 43, and an equal dollar amount of accessories for it, so stocks may be low).

3) forum wars have been fought over this, but for an enthusiast shooter, I think the DA/SA HK is easier to shoot at a higher level. Install a Wolff 12 pound hammer spring in a stock DA/SA HK and call her done.

[taadski]

YVK...is going to a G43 for thin carry...he has bought a 43...

But Grayguns doesn't work on Glocks.... [runs away]

[BCL]

I recently (within the last month or so) bought two P2000s and an sk from Top Gun Supply, so you can still get them new.

I agree with what GJM said about the size difference between the SK and the regular P2000, it's not much (.52 inches to be exact). If I had easy access, I would post pics. I would equate the size difference to be going from roughly a G19 to an M&P9 compact instead of a G19 to a G26 if that makes any sense.

I'm assuming that ECP means something along the lines of Engineering Change Proposal? I don't believe there have been any changes, at least nothing major.

I'm not a fan of the LEM trigger, I have tried to like it in USPs and HK45Cs, from the V2 weight to the Hybrid Match. Something about the two-stage-ness of the trigger causes me to anticipate shots and shoot low. I don't have this problem with any other handgun I shoot.

OTOH, I had no issues shooting my DA/SA P2000 with the Wolff 12 lb hammer spring installed. I can't remember the exact measurements pre- and post hammer spring install, but I know they went from a pull north of 10 lbs DA to barely sub 9 lbs DA. The SA pull is around 4.5 lbs.

This entire diatribe does have a point I promise - shoot an LEM gun before you buy, especially in the P series since you can't change back and forth easily between LEM and DA/SA. I may be weird since I love DA/SA HKs (even the P series with the dreaded long reset) far more than the LEM guns, and the P2000 V3 is my favorite carry gun right now.

[YVK]

I realize if I go with a CCW with an LEM I'd need to adjust to my game gun.



No, you don't. You can game VP9 and carry LEM. I would do exactly that if I didn't have perfectly reliable Glocks and a Gadget.
I carry LEM and game with LEM, and with non-HK TDA, and with Glocks. If you're aspirations are A/M/GM and match wins, bad practice. If you shoot for fun and additional practice, no difference.

#2 @ GJM ^^^^^^

3856

Under conditions of poor clothing choice AND unnatural body twists, otherwise known as "does this shirt make my [gun] butt look big?" posing session, I can find the difference. Beyond that, nothing.


#3 @ GJM^^^

I have consistently achieved faster first shot times with LEM over better DASA guns than HK will ever produce trigger - wise. My LEMs are 4 lbs triggers that I have zero reservations carrying and my long distance shooting is better with them. My follow up shots are either slower a bit, or same at a higher effort and maintenance schedule. I don't presume to know what's a better trade off for carry, but I made my choice, between that and "self decocking" nature of LEM.



But Grayguns doesn't work on Glocks.... [runs away]

Their loss. That 43 is a kickass. Certainly worth tefloning its guts.

[RJ]

1) Plenty of new ones, like these at TopGunSupply for 639 new.



Thanks!


...shoot an LEM gun before you buy, especially in the P series since you can't change back and forth easily between LEM and DA/SA. I may be weird since I love DA/SA HKs (even the P series with the dreaded long reset) far more than the LEM guns, and the P2000 V3 is my favorite carry gun right now.

Yeah, see, that's the problem for me; I don't have an opportunity here locally in Tampa to see a P2000, let alone shoot one. I also don't have the resources to buy more than one CCW gun, really. I basically have the VP9 and a S&W M&P FS9. My plan is to try and trade in the FS9 for the CCW gun, or buy online, and sell the FS9 locally....

For me, the end state is two guns, one for gaming and one for CCW. I don't realistically see buying any more after that.


No, you don't. You can game VP9 and carry LEM. I would do exactly that if I didn't have perfectly reliable Glocks and a Gadget.
I carry LEM and game with LEM, and with non-HK TDA, and with Glocks. If you're aspirations are A/M/GM and match wins, bad practice. If you shoot for fun and additional practice, no difference.

#2 @ GJM ^^^^^^

3856

Under conditions of poor clothing choice AND unnatural body twists, otherwise known as "does this shirt make my [gun] butt look big?" posing session, I can find the difference. Beyond that, nothing.


#3 @ GJM^^^

I have consistently achieved faster first shot times with LEM over better DASA guns than HK will ever produce trigger - wise. My LEMs are 4 lbs triggers that I have zero reservations carrying and my long distance shooting is better with them. My follow up shots are either slower a bit, or same at a higher effort and maintenance schedule. I don't presume to know what's a better trade off for carry, but I made my choice, between that and "self decocking" nature of LEM.

Their loss. That 43 is a kickass. Certainly worth tefloning its guts.

Gotcha, thanks.

No, no GM aspirations. I just got my "U" card in the mail a week or so ago. Future Unicorn shooter, I am not. So, yes, competition for fun and games.

OTOH, the goal of the CCW gun is to avoid getting kilt on da streetz.

By the way, that attachment link is not working for me...maybe I'm not clicking it right or my browser is not supporting it. If that is the picture of a P2000 and P2000SK, I'd be really interested in seeing that.



Well, heck, if I don't have any house duties today, I might go back and look at that P30SK at my LGS again...

[BCL]

The one benefit you would get with the p30sk over the p2000sk is sight options. I prefer Dawson sights for just about everything, especially their fiber optic sights. The p30sk uses p30 dovetails, so you have more sight options (Dawson and heinie for example).

As far as the LEM goes, I'm sure you can make it work with practice. If I could only have an LEM HK, I would practice until I was proficient.

I haven't read the entire thread, but is there a p30sk available local to you in DA/SA as well as one in LEM? The biggest problem with the sk series is that there are no Wolff hammer springs that drop in without cutting coils.

[s0nspark]

The biggest problem with the sk series is that there are no Wolff hammer springs that drop in without cutting coils.

Forgive my ignorance but what is the advantage of the Wolff spring over stock?

[BCL]

Stock hammer spring is 14 pounds, the Wolff 12 pound spring drops the DA by a pound or two. SA drops by a little bit as well

[LSP972]

http://pistol-training.com/archives/8549

LSP, this is what you are getting at, right? Hmmmm...very interesting.



Exactly. At the risk of sounding pedantic, because this has been said before ad infinitum, there is a lot more to choosing a carry piece for the non-LE person than simply evaluating the trigger action to see what works best in competition, gives one "better" splits, etc., etc.

People who have carried professionally (i.e., have had to hold people at gunpoint many times, and other activities involving having the pistol out and ready, under life-threatening duress, but not actually shooting anything) understand this; your average non-LE enthusiast/hunter, regardless of whether he carries every day, does NOT. As a result, you get a lot of well-meaning, but skewed, advice.

Jumping back and forth between different trigger actions is an intensely personal thing. Generally not a good idea, there are some who can do it with impunity. Only YOU can decide if its "okay" for you. Trust me, things get a LOT simpler when you stop serious competitive shooting and finally decide that concealed carry/personal protection is your primary thrust.;)

I think I can sum it up fairly easily… in a full adult life of having had the opportunity to shoot and handle just about everything out there, and the opportunity to utilize some of these pistols in the real world, in conditions good and bad, in my opinion there is nothing even close to the HK hammer guns in terms of quality, durability, "usability" (is that a word?), and precision. Some others are excellent in their own right, but fall short in one of the categories (see next paragraph). I don't exactly exclude the VP9, but then again I'm not a fan of striker actions.

FWIW, the pre-95 Sigs are every bit as good as HK, with one glaring exception; they were designed as uniform holster guns, are heavy, and therefore don't conceal-carry as well. Aside from that, they are beautiful examples of the gun crafter's trade.

I will say this; if you do get a LEM pistol, set aside a quantity of ammunition to get familiar with the LEM. It is indeed different from anything else. When I first tried it, I was underwhelmed. But as I shot it more, I began to understand the genius behind it.

The LEM is an acquired taste. Definitely not for everybody (meaning those who have prior experience with other types, and therefore pre-conceived likes and dislikes), but it has been my experience that the majority of folks- experienced pistoleros and nimrods alike- who give it a chance and actually LEARN it, usually end up preferring it.

As always, your mileage may vary…;)

.

[LSP972]

The biggest problem with the sk series is that there are no Wolff hammer springs that drop in without cutting coils.

So… what is wrong with the stock HK springs?

Never mind; saw your reasoning.

.

[GJM]

Rich, if you plan to end up with two guns, and only two guns, I would consider two VP9 twins, if you think you can conceal a VP9.

If not, I get the logic of something using VP9 magazines. However, frankly, both the LEM and DA/SA triggers are going to take a lot more work for you to shoot them like the VP9. And, consider that YVK sent his HK LEM away for six months and $400 worth of trigger work.

If the second VP9 won't work, I would seriously consider waiting until SHOT to see if HK introduces a VP9SK. Or if the thickness of the SK is too much, buy a Glock 43 for carry, and save for a future second VP9.

[OnionsAndDragons]

Rich,

What size gun are you really wanting? G19, M&Pc or a true subcompact like a Shield size?

If you are wanting the G19 size, it's hard to argue with considering a USPc. It might require a bit more saving, but it can be converted from or to LEM without any issues warranty or otherwise, has a wider variety of options and accessories, and the trigger can be more easily tailored than the other HKs.

I love my p2000's. I think it is the ideal average carry size, at about the same as a G19. The sk is just smaller enough that I don't like the grip so much and it is tough to reload without getting my hand chomped. I've still got a blood blister from last week...

I don't think you can go "wrong" with any of them, as long as you are willing to put some time in on the LEM trigger if that is what you decide on. I personally dislike the HK TDAs, but that is likely from having mostly shot Beretta and Sig TDAs and being spoiled. I will agree that the 12# spring improves the HK DA pull significantly, but it's still no Sig/Beretta.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[LSP972]

This, in spades. Rich, you need to answer those questions. And the SK pistols are the only variant of current HK offerings I have not owned; for exactly the reasons O&D outlined.

[RJ]

This, in spades. Rich, you need to answer those questions. And the SK pistols are the only variant of current HK offerings I have not owned; for exactly the reasons O&D outlined.

Got it.

I don't know what I don't know. So, I'm not sure. Not being a 'gun guy' it's hard to say. I'm also short, but in shape, as long as 'roundish' is a shape.

GJM, it's possible I can CCW the VP9. Frees up $ for training ammo :cool:. It's surely enough gun. I don't have any Hawaiian shirts...so I would think it's a bit big...but, maybe a good IWB holster would be an option for me to try. Gotta be cheaper than a new gun.

My brother has a TDA USPc, I just remembered. I'll follow up next chance I get to see him.

Glock 19...might be the right size. The 43 would be, for sure. It's what, five rounds? But, I just...do not like Glocks. Will leave at that.

The Shield and PPS are light and thin. Since I can't see a PPS, I might go shoot a rental Shield, or a M&P compact. But my S&W FS9 hasn't been really accurate, and I'm not thrilled with Smiths QC lately (ref reports of failing RSAs on Shields on the Smiff and Wesson forum I'm on. )

The LEM HK (P2000, P30SK) sounds good, but let's face it, keeping it simple FOR ME is probably a Real Good Idea.

So, I dunno. I don't have a ton of money to waste getting this wrong. I may just think about this some more.

I genuinely appreciate the input. I feel like this is one place online a noob like me can get derp-free input I can use.

Thank you all.

[YVK]

by the way, that attachment link is not working for me....

It always comes out sideways for me, much like my shooting

3859

[Patrin]

I think the Walter PPS makes a good smaller, flatter option to go along with the VP9.

I just recently tried one and the magazine release, while, yes, a paddle release, is different to operate than the VP9 / HK mag release.

More directly, the PPS's paddle is long and is operated further forward towards the trigger guard hook....you then switch back to the VP9 and now you have to re-think to bring your finger back toward the magwell for the VP9's release.

Looks simpatico, but it is not....not at all.

Wait for the VP9 SK.

[GJM]

Rich, why don't you like Glock pistols?

[taadski]

...it's possible I can CCW the VP9. Frees up $ for training ammo :cool:. It's surely enough gun. I don't have any Hawaiian shirts...so I would think it's a bit big...but, maybe a good IWB holster would be an option for me to try. Gotta be cheaper than a new gun.

That's some good thinking, IMO.

My father is a newer CCW'er at 70+ and it sounds like he's similar to you in size and shape (based on your own description ;)). He has started shooting IDPA the last few years and has taken to working on his shooting. He competes with a Sig P226 I gave him and carries either that or a P225 daily in a VMII. He explored smaller carry guns for a time but he eventually made the decision that he'd rather carry the pistol he practices regularly with. He based this on his capabilities with some of the smaller guns and the relative comfort he found with the Sparks holster. He lives here in Colorado, so wearing a cover shirt isn't at all out of place. You might find it a bit more difficult in Florida, but it might be worth exploring given you have the VP9 already. And good holsters are easy to get rid of if it doesn't work out. Just sayin'.


Anyway, just another data point.




t

[s0nspark]

GJM, it's possible I can CCW the VP9. Frees up $ for training ammo :cool:. It's surely enough gun. I don't have any Hawaiian shirts...so I would think it's a bit big...but, maybe a good IWB holster would be an option for me to try.

If you had asked me eight months ago if the VP9 was too big to carry I'd have said "oh yes" and yet it is now what I carry day in, day out.

My suggestion would be to get a good IWB holster - I am partial to JM Custom Kydex - and spend some time around the house seeing how well the VP9 will carry and conceal for you.

If it works well then yay! If not you'll at least have some concrete criteria to base a purchase on... and *maybe* the holster would work with a P30sk or VP9sk.

[CCT125US]

Comparison pics between: Shield, P2000SK, P2000, and P30.
3860
3861

[LOKNLOD]

I just recently tried one and the magazine release, while, yes, a paddle release, is different to operate than the VP9 / HK mag release.

More directly, the PPS's paddle is long and is operated further forward towards the trigger guard hook....you then switch back to the VP9 and now you have to re-think to bring your finger back toward the magwell for the VP9's release.

Looks simpatico, but it is not....not at all.

Wait for the VP9 SK.

For me, putting on the larger PPS blackstrap was critical to making the mag release work. I have hands that I'd say are medium at best, and immediately went for the smaller blackstrap piece, but putting on the larger piece changed the mag release lever effort from total clown shoes to perfectly workable with very little practice. Now, nothing else is VP9/P30 good for mag release (including that sucky P2000 OEM release), but it made it solidly doable and more similar to the HK than any of the traditional thumb buttons.

All that said, I think the PPS is a an option because of its full feature set, not necessarily just that mag release. Truth told I think mag release function in a single stack deeper concealment type subcompact is probably down the list of priorities. Half the time people don't even carry a spare mag in this role and if they do its buried pretty deep.

[GJM]

Comparison pics between: Shield, P2000SK, P2000, and P30.
3860
3861

P2000 with a flat base plate is the sweet spot for me, for carry.

[Patrin]

For me, putting on the larger PPS blackstrap was critical to making the mag release work. I have hands that I'd say are medium at best, and immediately went for the smaller blackstrap piece, but putting on the larger piece changed the mag release lever effort from total clown shoes to perfectly workable with very little practice. Now, nothing else is VP9/P30 good for mag release (including that sucky P2000 OEM release), but it made it solidly doable and more similar to the HK than any of the traditional thumb buttons.

All that said, I think the PPS is a an option because of its full feature set, not necessarily just that mag release. Truth told I think mag release function in a single stack deeper concealment type subcompact is probably down the list of priorities. Half the time people don't even carry a spare mag in this role and if they do its buried pretty deep.

Roger that....I tried the larger back strap as well, and still didn't care for it, but then again, I didn't work with it more than an hour.

Just decided it wasn't for me.

[RJ]

Rich, why don't you like Glock pistols?

GJM - Yeah, it's just a me thing.

Two years ago, when I was working in Atlanta, we went to the fancy-pants range up Georgia 400 and shot a whole mess of handguns.

I have my notes somewhere, but I distinctly remember the Glock (would guess it was a 19) was so 'different' (read, grip angle and texturing) that it, out of every pistol I shot (10+) the shots were oddly high. It felt wierd.

And, about 1/2 way through the mag, the Mrs. had a nice gash from slide bite that I had to use one of my "Be Prepared" Boy Scout wallet band aids on. So it was not popular with the family.

I have no problem aesthetically (hey, it is a gun) or in reliability (your all recurring BTF threads notwithstanding) or in accuracy (watching Mr. Vogel shoot is depressing).

So yeah, they work, just not "for me".

[RJ]

For me, putting on the larger PPS blackstrap was critical to making the mag release work. I have hands that I'd say are medium at best, and immediately went for the smaller blackstrap piece, but putting on the larger piece changed the mag release lever effort from total clown shoes to perfectly workable with very little practice. Now, nothing else is VP9/P30 good for mag release (including that sucky P2000 OEM release), but it made it solidly doable and more similar to the HK than any of the traditional thumb buttons.

All that said, I think the PPS is a an option because of its full feature set, not necessarily just that mag release. Truth told I think mag release function in a single stack deeper concealment type subcompact is probably down the list of priorities. Half the time people don't even carry a spare mag in this role and if they do its buried pretty deep.

For purchase, the PPS is probably my current leading choice.

Since I'm risk averse though, I will probably do what GJM suggested and wait for the VP9SK.

And meanwhile I can shop for an IWB holster for the VP9.

If I haven't figured this out by March next year, I'll pester my instructors at Mr. Given's Tactical Conference in Memphis. :cool:

Thanks again all, I really appreciate the inputs.

I'll let this thread die back now, I feel like I've sucked up enough bandwidth on my question and have enough data to make an informed decision.

[Luke]

I fondled a P30sk Saturday. Couldn't believe how comfortable it was being so small. I HATE small guns. I'd rock that little sucker if it had the VP9 slide release. DA sucked, but what factory HK has a nice DA?

[LOKNLOD]

Roger that....I tried the larger back strap as well, and still didn't care for it, but then again, I didn't work with it more than an hour.

Just decided it wasn't for me.


In all fairness and full disclosure, I abandoned my VP9 and the PPS is probably headed down the same path. It's a great shooting little gun, but I'm finding it doesn't offer a ton of functionality that I don't get from a G26.

[breakingtime91]

In all fairness and full disclosure, I abandoned my VP9 and the PPS is probably headed down the same path. It's a great shooting little gun, but I'm finding it doesn't offer a ton of functionality that I don't get from a G26.

why did you ditch the vp9

[LSP972]

I'm not thrilled with Smiths QC lately (ref reports of failing RSAs on Shields on the Smiff and Wesson forum I'm on. )



Interesting; I'll have to drop over there and have a look.

I tried a Shield. Decent little pistol, but it just didn't fit my hand AT ALL; squirmed pretty bad in burst fire.

Now I'm working with a G43. I know you don't like them, but I gotta say, Glock pretty much knocked it outta the park with this one. I've still got some more shooting/vetting to do, but so far the only issue I've heard of (and experienced) is the first run or so of magazines would hang up on the mag catch if not inserted completely square to the mag well. I bought a half-dozen mags a few weeks ago, from a vendor, and they all have been beveled that little bit extra and don't hang up. I did my original two mags myself, so I don't have the problem anymore.

As noted earlier by another member, the mag catch on the PPS is just… wrong. Its too long, the pivot point is in the wrong place, etc.

Anyway, good luck with your quest.

.

[LOKNLOD]

why did you ditch the vp9

Without high jacking the thread too badly...

It is a brilliant gun and I wouldn't encourage anyone else to dump them, but for me it just made more sense to keep shooting the pile of Glocks. Concealing the VP9 is totally doable (carried a p30 for quite a while) but G19 size grip is much more forgiving of normal dress for me and still packs same capacity. If I'm going to dump it more often for a smaller gun, what good does any perceived benefit offer if it's in the safe at home? I didn't see a marked improvement in shootability (love that paddle release though, and the trigger was very easy to shoot well); perhaps that is an indictment of my skills more so than the gun. Plus there are some financial angles at play for me as well, that may as well be irrelevant to others. I'm a young guy with three little kids, I make good money but I can't afford to "collect the whole set" while still advancing some of my other goals in life - especially if I'm trying to master actually shooting the dang things.

[RJ]

Interesting; I'll have to drop over there and have a look.



http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/442257-recoil-rod-shield-9mm-kaput.html?highlight=recoil+spring

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/438628-recoil-guide-failure-mp-shield-9mm.html?highlight=recoil+spring

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/441440-smith-restricting-spare-parts.html?highlight=recoil+spring

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/440410-should-i-risk-buying-shield.html?highlight=recoil+spring

Not sure how prevalent this RSA issue is, but it does give me pause.

[LSP972]

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/442257-recoil-rod-shield-9mm-kaput.html?highlight=recoil+spring

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/438628-recoil-guide-failure-mp-shield-9mm.html?highlight=recoil+spring

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/441440-smith-restricting-spare-parts.html?highlight=recoil+spring

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/440410-should-i-risk-buying-shield.html?highlight=recoil+spring

Not sure how prevalent this RSA issue is, but it does give me pause.

Yeah, definitely something to it. Mine ran fine for 500+ rounds before I gave up on it. But there is something else that bothers me about S&W:

The Shield had another issue early in its life. I don't remember exactly what that was, but it was something to do with function. Enough people had the problem (mine didn't) that S&W addressed it… kinda-sorta. They put out a statement that said "Do this test; if your pistol fails, send it back to us. If not, you're fine."

Without going into a lot of WTF rhetoric, that told me the gun has a design and/or fabrication problem that may or may not manifest itself due to tolerance stacking, etc.; and they chose to handle it like GM does with a flawed automobile. IOW, instead of the expense and hassle of a recall to fix the issue, they elected to roll the dice and simply deal with the problem as it manifested itself, because not everybody was seeing it.

That's my opinion, could be right, could be wrong, I dunno and don't care. S&W semi-autos have never been overly impressive, IMO, and even less so in their polymer iterations. I tried the Shield because I was on a quest for a small, lightweight EDC pistol that wasn't a mouse gun. It didn't "do it" for me, even though the gun worked like it was supposed to, so I moved on.

There was a rather extensive thread on the Shield here, a year or more ago, where another member was trying one out in detail and some of us chimed in with our observations. You might want to try digging that one up.

.

[breakingtime91]

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/442257-recoil-rod-shield-9mm-kaput.html?highlight=recoil+spring

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/438628-recoil-guide-failure-mp-shield-9mm.html?highlight=recoil+spring

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/441440-smith-restricting-spare-parts.html?highlight=recoil+spring

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/440410-should-i-risk-buying-shield.html?highlight=recoil+spring

Not sure how prevalent this RSA issue is, but it does give me pause.


I know most don't like this, but a sheet market spring seems to solve the issue.. With that said, I'm glad my wife's shield doesn't show that issue

[OnionsAndDragons]

I think the plan of buying a good IWB holster for your VP9 is a strong course of action right now, especially if you aren't sure if you can really carry daily. Find that out and then move to spending some more time looking for an alternative if it's even necessary.

JM, CCC, DarkStar Gear are going to take good care of you and will have good resale value if you decide it just isn't for you. I think JM may still swap out a holster for a different model if the one you get just doesn't feel right but you'll want to check. Others may as well. Those guys are all pretty dedicated to getting people the right holster for them, and will work with you if they can.

And buy some darned Hawaiian shirts, dude. You live in Florida, it's not like you'll look really out of place. :)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Beat Trash]

Yeah, definitely something to it. Mine ran fine for 500+ rounds before I gave up on it. But there is something else that bothers me about S&W:

The Shield had another issue early in its life. I don't remember exactly what that was, but it was something to do with function. Enough people had the problem (mine didn't) that S&W addressed it… kinda-sorta. They put out a statement that said "Do this test; if your pistol fails, send it back to us. If not, you're fine."

Without going into a lot of WTF rhetoric, that told me the gun has a design and/or fabrication problem that may or may not manifest itself due to tolerance stacking, etc.; and they chose to handle it like GM does with a flawed automobile. IOW, instead of the expense and hassle of a recall to fix the issue, they elected to roll the dice and simply deal with the problem as it manifested itself, because not everybody was seeing it.

That's my opinion, could be right, could be wrong, I dunno and don't care. S&W semi-autos have never been overly impressive, IMO, and even less so in their polymer iterations. I tried the Shield because I was on a quest for a small, lightweight EDC pistol that wasn't a mouse gun. It didn't "do it" for me, even though the gun worked like it was supposed to, so I moved on.

There was a rather extensive thread on the Shield here, a year or more ago, where another member was trying one out in detail and some of us chimed in with our observations. You might want to try digging that one up.

.

It had something to do with a dead trigger. The cause was an out of spec part of some sort that found it's way into the production line for a short period of time. The Shield is a popular BUG in my agency (For those who opt to carry a BUG). A memo came out directing anyone qualified with a Shield to have the armor's check it. S&W also gave instructions on the internet on how to check it. Out of about 150 Shields, I think we had 3 maybe with the issue.

The Shield is a great gun. I own three of them. The biggest issue I have is the grip is too rounded fore and aft. This combined with the thin width causes the gun to roll in my larger hands.

When the Glock 43 was introduced, I conned our regional Glock LE sales rep to loan us his personal G43 for a couple of days. His was one of the first made, and I got to shoot it before they were commonly available. The block 43 was a bit too small for my hands, but I could have lived with that for it's intended purpose. But it had the magazine issue of the early guns, in that the magazine had to be seated at exactly the right angle, or it would't seat. And out of two magazines fired, I was getting erratic ejection. I would get 2-3 cases bouncing off of my strong side wrist, hand or forearm. I was shooting it along with a Shield which had a flush fitting magazine. After a few magazines of cases pelting my hands, I gave up on the Glock 43.

But I have heard that the Glock 43's currently coming off of the production line are functioning great. And that they have fixed the magazine issue. My wife needs a carry gun that is slightly smaller than the Shield. I would strongly prefer it to be of a larger caliber than the 380 Glock 42 she has now. She has handled the Glock 43 in a store and likes the size and feel. I am planning on picking up a Glock 43 for her in the near future. I'll spend some time with the latest version and see if my opinion of the gun changes. I remain always hopeful...

[Chuck Whitlock]

And meanwhile I can shop for an IWB holster for the VP9.


https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?17098-New-JM-Custom-Kydex-JRC-Holsters-Hybrid

This is what I would get for a full-sized pistol.

[s0nspark]

JM may still swap out a holster for a different model if the one you get just doesn't feel right but you'll want to check.

I gotta say... Tony's customer service is phenomenal. He will take great care of you. Give him a call and discuss your situation and needs - he will help you pick the best place to start.

A large part of my being able to conceal the VP9 comfortably every day is due to the excellent design and craftsmanship of my JMCK holster - The rest I owe to my Volund belt and, yes, button up shirts :)

[Kirk]

Big fan of a VP9/Shield combo. Covers virtually all of my CCW needs, plus I run the VP9 in matches.

[MGW]

I know there isn't much love for the XDs here but Springfields little single stack is a nice pistol. I've owned two, sold them both, but still really like the pistol. I shot a well broken in XDs 9 this past weekend side by side with my 43. The XDs is like a combination of 43 and PPS. It's just enough bigger to get a better grip on than the 43. Lots of magazine options. "Normal" magazine release. Broken in the trigger is very nice with a rolling break. I like the ergos and handling much better than the Shield.

The only cons in my opinion are weight and the grip safety. I've never had an issue with the safety. It weighs about the same as a Glock 26 but it's one of the things that make it a nice pistol to shoot.

It would be worth a test in my opinion.

[JHC]

I was repeating SLG's advice which as I recall, used USPSA B class as a threshold of technical shooting skill, before which you would be better off sticking with one platform.

I don't think any USPSA class level as a shooting skill threshold is the best approach unless one wants to develop stage planning acumen before they decide to try a new gun. Why does a classification come up? How does Wannabe know how well a class B shooter shoots?

The last Class B shooter I shot behind in a match beat my stage time by 6 seconds! Like his 18 to my 24 seconds. Movement! Yet I shot double the alphas on fat and tight targets. I can't tell how he shoots but how he scores.

It would seem far better to pick a couple drills we have here and in the Pistol-Training archive and set standards on those.

10 second El Prez - clean?
5x5 skill test in . . . say 25 sec?
FAST in 7?
99 Drill for 75 or better?

[GJM]

I don't think any USPSA class level as a shooting skill threshold is the best approach unless one wants to develop stage planning acumen before they decide to try a new gun. Why does a classification come up? How does Wannabe know how well a class B shooter shoots?

The last Class B shooter I shot behind in a match beat my stage time by 6 seconds! Like his 18 to my 24 seconds. Movement! Yet I shot double the alphas on fat and tight targets. I can't tell how he shoots but how he scores.

It would seem far better to pick a couple drills we have here and in the Pistol-Training archive and set standards on those.

10 second El Prez - clean?
5x5 skill test in . . . say 25 sec?
FAST in 7?
99 Drill for 75 or better?

Standardized tests will work.

I don't think your USPSA analogy works, though, because USPSA classification is almost always based on classifiers, which are almost always stand and shoot stages, with almost no movement.

In the end, I don't think it really matters, as I don't know a single person who has literally followed the one gun advice.

[RJ]

A
I gotta say... Tony's customer service is phenomenal. He will take great care of you. Give him a call and discuss your situation and needs - he will help you pick the best place to start.

A large part of my being able to conceal the VP9 comfortably every day is due to the excellent design and craftsmanship of my JMCK holster - The rest I owe to my Volund belt and, yes, button up shirts :)

Sorry I was out looking at Hawaiian shirts. :cool:

Thanks for the info on JM CK, sounds like good peeps. I might take your and GJM's advice and see if I can CC the VP9. I had it in my Bladetech OWB range holster today for dry firing, and the weight is not that bad.

[JHC]

Standardized tests will work.

I don't think your USPSA analogy works, though, because USPSA classification is almost always based on classifiers, which are almost always stand and shoot stages, with almost no movement.

In the end, I don't think it really matters, as I don't know a single person who has literally followed the one gun advice.

Do you know what it takes to qualify B on the El Prez to keep it simple? Or is that a varying thing based on how the GMs are shooting it? Too much freakin' math man. LOL

[taadski]

Do you know what it takes to qualify B on the El Prez to keep it simple? Or is that a varying thing based on how the GMs are shooting it? Too much freakin' math man. LOL


A 10 second clean El Pres in Production class yields a 58% run. 60% is the threshold for B class. A clean 8 second run yields a 73% (again in Production). The threshold for A class is 75%.

[HopetonBrown]

GJM - Yeah, it's just a me thing.

Two years ago, when I was working in Atlanta, we went to the fancy-pants range up Georgia 400 and shot a whole mess of handguns.

I have my notes somewhere, but I distinctly remember the Glock (would guess it was a 19) was so 'different' (read, grip angle and texturing) that it, out of every pistol I shot (10+) the shots were oddly high. It felt wierd.

And, about 1/2 way through the mag, the Mrs. had a nice gash from slide bite that I had to use one of my "Be Prepared" Boy Scout wallet band aids on. So it was not popular with the family.

I have no problem aesthetically (hey, it is a gun) or in reliability (your all recurring BTF threads notwithstanding) or in accuracy (watching Mr. Vogel shoot is depressing).

So yeah, they work, just not "for me".

Did you have the same understanding of firearms that you do today? I see a lot of people at my local public range make proclamations on what guns do/don't work for them, but they don't have much training/match experience/trigger time to really base that thought on anything substantive other than feels, or how big their slow fire group was at 7 yards.

With regards to slide bite, Gen 4s have beavertail backstraps, and Grip Force Adapters work well on Gen 3s.

[GJM]

Did you have the same understanding of firearms that you do today? I see a lot of people at my local public range make proclamations on what guns do/don't work for them, but they don't have much training/match experience/trigger time to really base that thought on anything substantive other than feels, or how big their slow fire group was at 7 yards.

With regards to slide bite, Gen 4s have beavertail backstraps, and Grip Force Adapters work well on Gen 3s.

That is my #1 reason for not selling handguns. As my skills have matured, I can shoot pistols better that I previously struggled with. At my current rate of progress, I am expecting to be able to shoot a non-Gray Guns LEM to my satisfaction in just 10 or 20 more years.

[s0nspark]

Did you have the same understanding of firearms that you do today? I see a lot of people at my local public range make proclamations on what guns do/don't work for them, but they don't have much training/match experience/trigger time to really base that thought on anything substantive other than feels, or how big their slow fire group was at 7 yards.


Fair enough point but for me, at least, the Glock "ergonomics" presented more obstacles to skill building than other guns.

In contrast I shot my VP9 the first time out better than I had any of my other guns... and particularly better than the Glocks that I had the majority of my trigger time with.

Sometimes things click; sometimes they just don't. Thank God for choices!

[RJ]

Did you have the same understanding of firearms that you do today? I see a lot of people at my local public range make proclamations on what guns do/don't work for them, but they don't have much training/match experience/trigger time to really base that thought on anything substantive other than feels, or how big their slow fire group was at 7 yards.

With regards to slide bite, Gen 4s have beavertail backstraps, and Grip Force Adapters work well on Gen 3s.

Great point. I've come a ways in two years of dental school. :cool:

But seriously, I did notice the G43 in the gun case the other day had a good backstrap, if it was not a beavertail. As far as I know, though, the Glock grip angle is still at that weird angle?

My buddy took me shooting in 2014. He had a Glock 19 and Luger P08. I had the same feeling I had when we shot all those pistols in 2013. A Glock is just not going to work for me.

[BobLoblaw]

Fair enough point but for me, at least, the Glock "ergonomics" presented more obstacles to skill building than other guns.

In contrast I shot my VP9 the first time out better than I had any of my other guns...

Same here. I spent a lot of money trying to love the 17/19. Just starting out I wanted to be a Glock guy like the pros and the rest of the cool crowd but alas, my hands are small-ish which made my range time frustrating.

Enter the VP9. It worked better overall in my hands from day 1 so I took the cheap gains and rolled with it. It's funny, for a while I felt like I was one of just a handful of guys in this forum who carry a VP9. It was real hot when it came out but the interest here seemed to fizzle and die overnight. Anyways, I appreciate this thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RJ]

I haven't made a decision yet, but, in the event someone finds it useful, I have been keeping this list of pistols by size.

Many refer to height, so I ordered it by height. Every time someone mentions a CCW option I'm interested in, I go look up the sizes, and post it in my list.

Hope this helps someone.

PISTOL SIZE COMPARISON

S M&P FS9 Length 7.6" Height 5.5" Barrel 4.3" Width 1.2" 17 rds*

S HK VP9 Length 7.3" Height 5.4" Barrel 4.1" Width 1.3" 15 rds*

H Sig P229. Length 7.1" Height 5.4" Barrel 3.9" Width 1.5" 10/13 Rds

S Sig P320 C Length 7.2" Height 5.3" Barrel 3.9" Width 1.3" 15 rds

S Walther PPQ Length 7.1" Height 5.3" Barrel 4.0" Width 1.3" 15 Rds

H Sig P239. Length 6.6" Height 5.1" Barrel 3.2" Width 1.2" 8 Rds

S Glock 19 Length 7.4" Height 5.0" Barrel: 4.0" width 1.2" 15 rds

H PX4 Storm C Length 6.8" Height 5.0" Barrel 3.3" Width 1.4" 15 Rds

H HK USP C Length 6.8" Height 5.0" Barrel 3.6" Width 1.3" 10/13 Rds

H HK P2000 Length 6.8" Height 5.0" Barrel 3.7" Width 1.4" 10/13 Rds

H HK P2000SK Length 6.4" Height 4.6" Barrel 3.3" Width 1.3" 10 Rds

H HK P30 SK Length 6.4" Height 4.6" Barrel 3.3" Width 1.3" 10 Rds

S S&W Shield Length 6.1" Height 4.6" Barrel 3.1" Width 0.9" 7/8 Rds

S Walther PPS Length 6.3" Height 4.4" Barrel 3.2" Width 0.9" 6/7 Rds

S = Striker
H = Hammer
* = Guns I own personally

[LSP972]

You're plummeting toward the "chart trap"; that is, possibly spending too much time perusing manufacturer's specs. They sometimes lie, and definitely do not give a complete picture of a given pistol's concealability when YOU are wearing it.

Not saying that your compilation is useless; quite the contrary. I am cautioning you to not get get too caught up in the dimensions-comparison game… because it can present a false picture. I think you should first decide if you want a hammer gun or a striker gun; that will narrow your choices to a manageable list.

.

[RJ]

You're plummeting toward the "chart trap"; that is, possibly spending too much time perusing manufacturer's specs. They sometimes lie, and definitely do not give a complete picture of a given pistol's concealability when YOU are wearing it.

Not saying that your compilation is useless; quite the contrary. I am cautioning you to not get get too caught up in the dimensions-comparison game… because it can present a false picture. I think you should first decide if you want a hammer gun or a striker gun; that will narrow your choices to a manageable list.

.

Understood. Makes sense...

[RJ]

My wife and I rented a Shield 9 and a Glock 43 today at a local indoor range. We had to use range ammo (Remington 115 FMJ). Both of these were on my short list of finalists for a new ccw due to being small single stack 9s.

TL;DR: Did not like either one.

We started with the Shield. I had a FTF on the first mag, and a stove pipe on the second.

Third and fourth mag, I was inadvertently dropping the mag (I'm a lefty). I gather the mag release on a Shield is not reversible. And the slide release is on only one side? No Bueno.

Overall, it felt jumpy and squirmy in my hand.

Wife: "I did not like this gun. It was not accurate. It had a lot of recoil."

We switched to the Glock 43, with a 6 round mag / pinkie extension.

Felt VERY greasy and thin in the hand. I quickly got a red blister from the trigger guard on my left middle finger, interior, after only 25 rounds. I shot it ok, just hard to get a grip on the bloody thing.

No issues with the gun functioning, though. Squeeze = Bang.

Wife: "It feels very small and slick, I did not have a good grip. It was better than the Shield, but I would not buy either of these guns."

So, it was a very useful exercise. No amount of Internet yakking or YouTube watching substitutes for what it actually feels like to shoot a gun in the hand.

We finished by shooting 50 rounds of Blazer 115 through my VP9.

Wife said, "wow, this feels really good, and the trigger is very smooth." (First time shooting the VP9 for her.)

She said, "Do they make this in a compact size?"

:cool:

So, looks like we are waiting to see what HK brings out in 2016.

Pic of the G43 in hand.

http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/10/26/e38d31bd3e46d1a30449c9620e7b9dab.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RJ]

I connected up with a buddy on another forum who is going to let me shoot his P2000SK Saturday. Looking forward to that.

Meanwhile, I penned some thoughts below on my 'ideal' CCW below, given what I know now (which is not much :) ). Thinking is to use 'my' requirements to see if anything introduced in early 2016 vis a vis MHS or FBI procurements might match up.

Rich's Ideal CCW

Chambered in 9 mm

Use 10 round USPc mags (to match up my VP9)

Have an overall height of approximately 5.0" (max I need for my grip)

Be no more than 1.2" wide, with no charging assists (meaning, double stack is ok, don't like those skinny guns)

Have a consistent trigger pull (Striker or LEM hammer) (don't want a DA/SA)

Feature a tactile cocking indicator (a hammer, *or* a PPS-like physically protruding cocked/decocked indicator)

Ability to mount Trijicon HD sights (same as my game gun)

Perform through a 1,000 round two day training class with 0 malfunctions (that'd be what I need it to do)

[breakingtime91]

I connected up with a buddy on another forum who is going to let me shoot his P2000SK Saturday. Looking forward to that.

Meanwhile, I penned some thoughts below on my 'ideal' CCW below, given what I know now (which is not much :) ). Thinking is to use 'my' requirements to see if anything introduced in early 2016 vis a vis MHS or FBI procurements might match up.

Rich's Ideal CCW

Chambered in 9 mm

Use 10 round USPc mags (to match up my VP9)

Have an overall height of approximately 5.0" (max I need for my grip)

Be no more than 1.2" wide, with no charging assists (meaning, double stack is ok, don't like those skinny guns)

Have a consistent trigger pull (Striker or LEM hammer) (don't want a DA/SA)

Feature a tactile cocking indicator (a hammer, *or* a PPS-like physically protruding cocked/decocked indicator)

Ability to mount Trijicon HD sights (same as my game gun)

Perform through a 1,000 round two day training class with 0 malfunctions (that'd be what I need it to do)

sounds like the p2000sk..

[SkiDevil]

I was really surprised on how shootable the HK 2000SK is for a sub-compact gun. Great pistol.

I would also recommend checking-out the USP Compact in 9mm. Another solid choice. Fantastic trigger and very accurate.

[gtmtnbiker98]

P2000SK or P30SK.

[DEG]

Can't go wrong with the P30SK. You can set up the panels the same as your VP9 and have the same sight options.

[OnionsAndDragons]

I'm gonna put this out as a data point so that you can disregard it at your leisure, Rich:

I just ditched my p2000sk. Because I never found a reason to carry it over my regular p2000. It really isn't that much smaller. The difference between the VP9/P30 and the P2K is much more noticeable TO ME, than the difference going from P2K to P2Ksk.

They're all nice, though. Just don't forget, when you get the sk in your hands, to ask yourself: could I go a little bigger?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[FPS]

Try the Ruger SR9c if you haven't. I really didn't want to like the gun but the trigger is fantastic, the slimness and shortness for a double stack make it carry well. 10 rd mag and also comes with a 17rd. Only thing I am not crazy about is the grip. Other than that, the gun shoots. No failures yet (somewhere north of 1K rounds).

My wife inherited my Shield. Shield carries great but even with an Apex trigger upgrade there is still something about that trigger I don't like. Slim grip also doesn't feel that great to me (but it is a dream to carry, easy to forget its there.)

[JodyH]

On the P2000SK (and the P2000) trash the finger rest magazine floor plates and replace them with the flats. That makes a world of difference when it comes to concealment, especially on the SK.

[OnionsAndDragons]

On the P2000SK (and the P2000) trash the finger rest magazine floor plates and replace them with the flats. That makes a world of difference when it comes to concealment, especially on the SK.

Oh yeah. I always carry with the flat base. And it does make the difference a bit bigger. Still not enough for me to make it significantly more concealable than the full size p2000.

It may just be a body type thing, but that p2000/G19 size is a sweet spot for me. Disappears under a tshirt. I just find that I can't squeeze much more concealability out of a gun unless I go to a single stack, of which my choice is the PPS.

But that is my own experience. I know it isn't universal. Hannah has trouble concealing anything bigger than the Shield. So most of the time it's a Safariland holstered 229 with a good cardigan to cover up.

I think I just love the p2000 entirely too much. :)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[breakingtime91]

Oh yeah. I always carry with the flat base. And it does make the difference a bit bigger. Still not enough for me to make it significantly more concealable than the full size p2000.

It may just be a body type thing, but that p2000/G19 size is a sweet spot for me. Disappears under a tshirt. I just find that I can't squeeze much more concealability out of a gun unless I go to a single stack, of which my choice is the PPS.

But that is my own experience. I know it isn't universal. Hannah has trouble concealing anything bigger than the Shield. So most of the time it's a Safariland holstered 229 with a good cardigan to cover up.

I think I just love the p2000 entirely too much. :)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

how does blocking the striker work on the pps?

[WDW]

Check out the Walther P99C. It's a fantastic carry gun, especially with AIWB carry. I absolutely love mine.

[OnionsAndDragons]

how does blocking the striker work on the pps?

Just like a gadget, but a little more painful.

With thumb pressure on the striker, I can pull on the trigger full strength and all I get is a little red bruise on my thumb pad. I love the feature for aiwb.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[RJ]

Shot a friend's P2000SK lite LEM today at my local outdoor range.

Although I started with 10 in the black at 5 yards, I just could not quite square up with the light double action trigger. It just felt too weird for me; I would not be comfortable going from my game gun to carrying a LEM, based on my experience level at this time, IME.

Cool little gun, though.

So, search continues...

[Beat Trash]

Maybe a DA/SA P2000SK?

Or if you can wait a few months and the rumors are true, we may see a VP9sk announced.

[breakingtime91]

Shot a friend's P2000SK lite LEM today at my local outdoor range.

Although I started with 10 in the black at 5 yards, I just could not quite square up with the light double action trigger. It just felt too weird for me; I would not be comfortable going from my game gun to carrying a LEM, based on my experience level at this time, IME.

Cool little gun, though.

So, search continues...

or just use a lem :cool:

[JodyH]

I find the "light LEM" to be an all around shitty trigger.
It basically does away with all the LEM positives and enhances the negatives.
But hey, it's what all the thumbsucking HKPro's like...

[breakingtime91]

I find the "light LEM" to be an all around shitty trigger.
It basically does away with all the LEM positives and enhances the negatives.
But hey, it's what all the thumbsucking HKPro's like...

Do you use the tlg variant jody?

[LSP972]

I find the "light LEM" to be an all around shitty trigger.
It basically does away with all the LEM positives and enhances the negatives.
But hey, it's what all the thumbsucking HKPro's like...

As a card-carrying HKPro thumbsucker, I fitted a light LEM to my training HK45C. The second time I let a round go early during the punch-out; which, fortunately, both went into the target, low; I said to hell with that and restored the heavy TRS.

.

[JodyH]

Do you use the tlg variant jody?
V2 LEM in all my H&K's.

[eyemahm]

Shot a friend's P2000SK lite LEM today at my local outdoor range.

Although I started with 10 in the black at 5 yards, I just could not quite square up with the light double action trigger. It just felt too weird for me


I find the light lem particularly strange to shoot, as there's very little weight to the take-up and then a pronounced, slightly mushy wall, which made it challenging to pull through the trigger cleanly and confidently .. at first. I sometimes contemplate going back to the medium weight TRS (from the v2) but remain unconvinced that there's an easy or obvious solution to the problem, other than practice.

If you find a TDA SK in a gun store, though, it might be worth a fingerbang. A friend brought his new P2000 to the range last week and the trigger was better than any other HK I've felt. Maybe they've changed something or maybe he just got a nice example. It was cleaner, more consistent, and crisper than my USP with match trigger. Reset is a bit longer, of course, but I would've traded for that gun in a heartbeat. If you find one of those, perhaps the platform will be worth reevaluating.

Jody, do you think the difference in FPB spring weight contributes negatively to the feel of the trigger in the V1 or that it's just the TRS?




Maybe a DA/SA P2000SK?

Or if you can wait a few months and the rumors are true, we may see a VP9sk announced.


Shot a friend's P2000SK lite LEM today at my local outdoor range.

Although I started with 10 in the black at 5 yards, I just could not quite square up with the light double action trigger. It just felt too weird for me; I would not be comfortable going from my game gun to carrying a LEM, based on my experience level at this time, IME.

Cool little gun, though.

So, search continues...

[breakingtime91]

V2 LEM in all my H&K's.

only lem i have tried is the tlg variant. I enjoy the long take up, nice wall, and then the assertive resit. Main reason I became interested is because of what nyeti wrote about the lem.

[JodyH]

Jody, do you think the difference in FPB spring weight contributes negatively to the feel of the trigger in the V1 or that it's just the TRS?
The FPB spring only very slightly affects the weight of the ramp up to hammer trip (the FPB is only depressed at the very end of the trigger travel).
The TRS lightens the initial trigger travel (which makes the ramp up to the hammer trip even more pronounced) and gives you the weaker trigger reset.
A lighter mainspring lightens the ramp up differential and lightens the break (at the expense of ignition reliability over the long haul).

Basically by using the light TRS you're turning the LEM into a M&P or Glock trigger with a long mushy takeup and a long, slow reset but a decent light break.
It makes for a decent one shot per second range trigger and feels good in slow dry fire, but sucks to shoot fast and as a threat management trigger.

[JodyH]

LEM spring basics:
Initial trigger travel "takeup" weight is pretty much all TRS.
As you near the hammer release you start to compress the FPB spring and mainspring this is the "ramp" and is mostly affected by the TRS and FPB springs with a little mainspring.
Just before hammer release you have a "wall" which is where you finish compressing the mainspring (which was mostly pre-cocked by the action). This is almost all mainspring with a little TRS/FPB.
The reset is pretty much all TRS.

The elbow spring and flat spring are in there as well, but they are constants that you can't tweak (although the nickel plated flat spring will smooth things up).

[breakingtime91]

LEM spring basics:
Initial trigger travel "takeup" weight is pretty much all TRS.
As you near the hammer release you start to compress the FPB spring and mainspring this is the "ramp" and is mostly affected by the TRS and FPB springs with a little mainspring.
Just before hammer release you have a "wall" which is where you finish compressing the mainspring (which was mostly pre-cocked by the action). This is almost all mainspring with a little TRS/FPB.
The reset is pretty much all TRS.

The elbow spring and flat spring are in there as well, but they are constants that you can't tweak (although the nickel plated flat spring will smooth things up).

what do you think of the TLG?

[JodyH]

what do you think of the TLG?
The FPB spring is a nuance spring.
More of a fine tuning to your preference spring than a significant feel modification.
I usually change out my P30 FPB springs for the light FPB spring. All my V2 P2000's have come from the factory with the lighter FPB spring.
Basically I'm just making my P30 feel a lot more like my P2000's (which I have the most time on).
I didn't bother changing anything on my 45C and I only notice the difference doing dry fire.

[RJ]

Just wanted to update where I ended up in my search.

Today I purchased a Walther PPS M2, 9mm, standard version.

http://www.waltherarms.com/handguns/pps/pps-m2/

I paid $449 plus tax plus NICS fee out the door at my local Clearwater Shoot Straight.

The reasons I ended up with this pistol, aside from the previous history of the Walther PPS Classic, is the width.

While I considered, and shot, a bunch of other small 9mm pistols, all of them had double stacked magazines. So, despite being small, pistols like the HK P30 or P2000 did not give me, width wise, much different than I already had in my VP9.

I also rented and shot two of the more popular single stack 9mm pistols, the Shield and the Glock 43. I was really ready to buy either one of these pistols, but they just did not really suit me when I shot them.

I also rented and shot a PPS Classic. I really liked this pistol, and (for me) shot it relatively well.

The PPS M2 was introduced by Walther at the SHOT show. For me, I wanted very much to handle it, before purchase, so a Gunbroker sale was not suitable.

I found that it was extremely hard to find. Apparently Walther is experiencing delays in getting these to their dealers because of demand. Through today, I had contacted 35+ retail stores in the Tampa, and beyond, area, yet none were in stock.

Well, today I found one, handled it, and bought it. I'll put a few more thoughts into the ongoing PPS M2 thread.

[Desmoface]

I had to make the same decision:

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5774/24051799101_c126782593_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/CDnKVp)6a (https://flic.kr/p/CDnKVp) by desmoface (https://www.flickr.com/photos/20285602@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5709/24026305912_4f13efe6a3_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/CB86FE)7a (https://flic.kr/p/CB86FE) by desmoface (https://www.flickr.com/photos/20285602@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5764/23766602889_ea952bc06a_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Cdb42k)2a (https://flic.kr/p/Cdb42k) by desmoface (https://www.flickr.com/photos/20285602@N02/), on Flickr

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5689/23838746880_07e23b9240_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/CjxNVf)NIghtSitea (https://flic.kr/p/CjxNVf) by desmoface (https://www.flickr.com/photos/20285602@N02/), on Flickr

Steve

[The Apprentice]

Just wanted to update where I ended up in my search.

Today I purchased a Walther PPS M2, 9mm, standard version.

http://www.waltherarms.com/handguns/pps/pps-m2/

I paid $449 plus tax plus NICS fee out the door at my local Clearwater Shoot Straight.

The reasons I ended up with this pistol, aside from the previous history of the Walther PPS Classic, is the width.

While I considered, and shot, a bunch of other small 9mm pistols, all of them had double stacked magazines. So, despite being small, pistols like the HK P30 or P2000 did not give me, width wise, much different than I already had in my VP9.

I also rented and shot two of the more popular single stack 9mm pistols, the Shield and the Glock 43. I was really ready to buy either one of these pistols, but they just did not really suit me when I shot them.

I also rented and shot a PPS Classic. I really liked this pistol, and (for me) shot it relatively well.

The PPS M2 was introduced by Walther at the SHOT show. For me, I wanted very much to handle it, before purchase, so a Gunbroker sale was not suitable.

I found that it was extremely hard to find. Apparently Walther is experiencing delays in getting these to their dealers because of demand. Through today, I had contacted 35+ retail stores in the Tampa, and beyond, area, yet none were in stock.

Well, today I found one, handled it, and bought it. I'll put a few more thoughts into the ongoing PPS M2 thread.

Thanks Rich if your luck is anything like mine we should see a vp9sk pretty soon. Hope you enjoy the new toy.

[Shutterbug4it]

I own both a Shield 9 and a P30sk. Both have a nice fit and finish. I shoot the H&K right out of the box very well and somehow have issues with the Shield. I'm not giving up on the Shield but I cannot group well with it but frankly prefer the weight and thinness of the Shield. The Shield is very light, concealable but for me, as yet, I can't shoot it well. The machining on the P30 with fit and finish is superb but you pay for that. The P30sk if I am correct should not digest lead. Check the barrel configuration on H&K site as I cannot recall what they call manner in which the barrel is made but it is different,...hence no lead. In the end I love the H&K and shoot it well and if it were thinner and lighter it would be my ccw of choice but alas I consider the M&P shield9 and hope a can figure out how to shoot it well as it is the first pistol I've ever owned that my groups are borderline and yes I've checked the sights on the Shield and barrel so it is me that must learn to shoot the Shield.

cheers

[RJ]

I posted this in my training journal a few days ago; seemed ok to cross post it here as it is relevant to anyone following this thread who might be in similar circumstances:


Mindset update today.

This summer, for the first time as a new shooter, I started to conceal carry on a regular basis. What I discovered was that there were a couple subtleties I wasn't aware of...and both are about “weight”...

Weight Matters – A lot

The first part of this relates to the weight of the firearm itself.

Early on in my search for a new CCW, I focused, almost exclusively, on dimensions – width primarily, but also height and length. I had the dimensions stuck in my head, almost verbatim, of the oft-quoted “perfect” ccw gun -- the Glock 19.

With a height of 5.0” and a manageable length of just over 7”, I concluded, with zero experience, that the width of the Glock (1.2”, according to Glock USA) was “just too big” for me. I thus began a search for a reliable single stack, around 1”, with adequate magazine capacity and acceptable accuracy.

I ended up buying a Walther PPS M2, documenting my search here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?16312-Shield-or-P30-SK-or-something-else

Excited to have my new CCW in March, I ordered a JM Custom Kydex IWB Version 3 from Tony, and brought it to Rangemaster in Memphis in April, using it in both class and the competition. 900+ rounds later, it has had 0 malfunctions, and is both accurate and very comfortable to shoot.

It is also heavy.

Loaded with Federal HST 147s with the 7+1 mag, it hangs on my belt very awkwardly. Relative to it's magazine capacity (21.1 oz., 6, 7, or 8 rounds), it weighs almost as much as a Glock 26 (21.71 oz., 10+1 rounds).

This weight aspect was something I virtually ignored in my CCW search...but being personal friends with Dunning and Kruger, might not be surprising...:cool:

But Your Weight Matters, Too...

Now, coincidentally, at the beginning of July, I switched my diet to reduce/eliminate carbohydrates and processed sugar in all forms, adding daily exercise at the same time. I'm now focused on high protein foods, eggs, good fats, organic fresh vegetables, and fish. Three months later, I've lost 14 lbs and am within 9 lbs of my goal weight of below 175.

The point is not one of my personal fitness, but in the realization of how carrying extra weight around one's middle affects concealed carry.

In July, my 38” belt had a tendency to drop further and further off my hip during the day.

Getting to a 34” waist has drastically reduced the amount of belt pressure required to keep the pistol stable with the holster I'm using. Having less fat to compress now, means the belt “sits” more on the point of my hips, and with less tendency to fall, than before.

Way Forward

Ok, where I am going is two fold.

First, I got with Tony and ordered a new IWB Version 1 holster for the PPS. Switching from the small, single clip Version 3 to the Version 1, with its two loops, will spread the weight out much more around my middle. (Can't say enough positive things about JM Customer Kydex and Tony's responsiveness. What great service.)

Second, after reviewing where things are in the world, I changed the order – to one for my HK VP9.

When I soberly contemplate actually using using my pistol – I want my VP9 in my hand.

15+1 bbs are better than 7+1 bbs; at the Mall Food Court, or anywhere else. Weight wise, the VP9 is 25.5 oz – an increase of 4 and a half ounces -- with more than double the magazine capacity.

Long term, the VP9 should be a better carry solution – assuming it works out.

(Plan B, if the VP9 is “too big”, is to go back and reevaluate smaller carry guns. Just thinking out loud, but a P30SK LEM would share magazines with the VP9 (yeah, they would stick out, but still), have no safety, and have the ability to have Trijicon HD, as on my VP9. I did shoot a lite LEM P30SK last year, but was not happy with the lightness and length of the trigger. But I might need to reassess all that. )

[RJ]

I own both a Shield 9 and a P30sk. Both have a nice fit and finish. I shoot the H&K right out of the box very well and somehow have issues with the Shield. I'm not giving up on the Shield but I cannot group well with it but frankly prefer the weight and thinness of the Shield. The Shield is very light, concealable but for me, as yet, I can't shoot it well. The machining on the P30 with fit and finish is superb but you pay for that. The P30sk if I am correct should not digest lead. Check the barrel configuration on H&K site as I cannot recall what they call manner in which the barrel is made but it is different,...hence no lead. In the end I love the H&K and shoot it well and if it were thinner and lighter it would be my ccw of choice but alas I consider the M&P shield9 and hope a can figure out how to shoot it well as it is the first pistol I've ever owned that my groups are borderline and yes I've checked the sights on the Shield and barrel so it is me that must learn to shoot the Shield.

cheers

The Shield I handled as well as the one that I shot as a rental seemed very squirmy to me. It may have been me and my size M hands, or it may have been the grip surface. I found it difficult to handle and would use the word "jumpy".

It did not help any that my firm grip (and my grip is pretty firm) kept hitting the mag release (I am a lefty) dropping the mag 'just' enough so it would not fire. This happened to me twice at the square range, and I concluded it was just not the pistol for me.

A few folks find the Talon grips to be useful; do you have any issues with the texture? Maybe a set of those for the Shield might help?

[RJ]

Well...everyone who voted P30SK gets a brownie point.

:)

Traded my PPS M2 and M&P FS9 in on a P30SK lite LEM. Love it. 306 rounds so far, shoots flat and very comfortable.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170103/51273d9a8f3843a0716880797b97c747.jpg


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Doc_Glock]

This was a great thread to read through. Very educational. As a new owner of a P30SK with V1 LEM, I definitely see the appeal. It is an extremely well built pistol and the LEM for someone used to SFAs is long, but sweet and I can see the value as a threat management tool in a stressful environment.

Rich: I have followed your journey in retrospect via your training journal. Obviously the VP9 and the P30SK are quite different. Have you considered abandoning the VP9 and going to a P2000, USPc, or P30 LEM? That would give you two guns that operate similarly, with different sizes. This would be similar to GJM's suggestion of a G19/26 combination early in the thread.

If I had to drop to two guns exclusively for carry, it would be the G19 for almost all the time and the G42 for those few times where light weight (<20oz) is critical. I rarely find a time where I can't carry the 19 in place of a 26, and I never really want to carry the 17. The 19 size wise is a real sweet spot.

It looks like the USPc and P2000 are closest in size to a G19, so maybe a matched pair of them would work well for you as well.

It comes down to which trigger you want to commit to, not that you have to commit. The VP9 is much closer to a Glock than a LEM HK though.

[RJ]

E - Nah, at this point I'm done w dorking around with guns for quite a while.

I'll just shoot what I have, and spend what time / $ I have on training.

[RJ]

E - Nah, at this point I'm done w dorking around with guns for quite a while.



Sure you are. [emoji41]

Just to update this thread, I traded my VP9 in on a Gen 5 Glock 19 last month. My wife grabbed the P30SK, so *I* am down to one gun for USPSA and carry duties.

I have zip for Glock ownership experience so I borrowed a buddy’s G19.5 for a 150 rounds as a trial. I felt good shooting it so I bought one.

Only 170 rounds in, but I’m extremely happy with the Glock. The whole ‘Glock grip angle’ thing was in my head, and I shoot it as well as my VP9. Fit for my size M hands is perfect with no back straps.

It may be heresy to say, , but the trigger feels like a 1/2” travel VP9 Trigger. I like it.

Magazines are 1/2 the price of HK mags, which was a plus. I didn’t know I’d need the Jaws of Life to disassemble them though lol.

No BTF and ejection seems strong so far.

I plan to shoot my first match next week so will see how it goes.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171206/8eb86260295e3bcc4e6e9459aa0f2fc3.jpg

[Beat Trash]

Welcome to the Dark Side.

[David S.]

Disassembling a Glock is about technique, not force.

[Wondering Beard]

Sure you are. [emoji41]

Just to update this thread, I traded my VP9 in on a Gen 5 Glock 19 last month. My wife grabbed the P30SK, so *I* am down to one gun for USPSA and carry duties.

I have zip for Glock ownership experience so I borrowed a buddy’s G19.5 for a 150 rounds as a trial. I felt good shooting it so I bought one.

Only 170 rounds in, but I’m extremely happy with the Glock. The whole ‘Glock grip angle’ thing was in my head, and I shoot it as well as my VP9. Fit for my size M hands is perfect with no back straps.

It may be heresy to say, , but the trigger feels like a 1/2” travel VP9 Trigger. I like it.

Magazines are 1/2 the price of HK mags, which was a plus. I didn’t know I’d need the Jaws of Life to disassemble them though lol.

No BTF and ejection seems strong so far.

I plan to shoot my first match next week so will see how it goes.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171206/8eb86260295e3bcc4e6e9459aa0f2fc3.jpg

Told you so ;-)