Lehigh Defense: Xtreme Penetrator Ammunition

[nycnoob]

I saw this new bullet design by Lehigh Defense and it looks pretty interesting. Its a solid piece of copper which does not expand.
It has some notches near the tip which supposedly increase the wound channel by creating some hydraulic effect
("twice the penetration and larger volume then most expanding bullets" so over penetration may be an issue). It has a blunt
nose so even if the hydraulic effect is overstated or only works in gelatin, it still might be an interesting bullet, since Doc
recommends wadcutters and these are sorta wadcutters which evidently feed in automatics.

Anyway to my untrained eyes these look like less hype and more science then the other "game changing bullets"
which have been released recently. Would like to know what more informed people think. In particular they are
advertising it for 380 pocket guns which was exactly my first thought as well.



Xtreme Penetrator Ammunition (https://www.lehighdefense.com/index.php/shop/ammunition/xtreme-penetrator)



Product Features

Solid Copper (Lead Free) precision CNC machined design. Good for the enviromment, bad, really bad for the target

Unique nose that increases the hydraulic velocity creating high pressure spikes resulting in a larger permanent wound column and over twice the penetration than most expanding bullets.

Blunt nose for initial energy transfer and straight, deep penetration while allowing for reliable magazine feeding.

Solid copper construction and cutting edges to punch through entry barriers without deformation or deflection.



Ballistics Test

The ballistic test shown below demonstrates the unparalleled performance of our 45 ACP +P XP bullet. Check out the depth of the penetration and the size of the PWC (Permanent Wound Column).

Ballistics Testing - FBI Standard 10% Ballistics Gelatin

Barrier: 4 Layers of Denim

The following link is a report that was published by the FBI to explain the desired effectiveness of a handgun wound. Click on the following link: FBI Handgun Wounding Effectiveness

[nycnoob]

I found some related material


Two articles:

the "Radially Dynamic" Devel Bullet (http://www.thegunzone.com/people/charlie_kelsey2.html)

.45 ACP Devel 155gr Radially Dynamic Solid Copper Alloy Prototype Bullet Cartridge (http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/volume4/number2/article422.htm)


Two Patents:

Devel small arms bullet
US 5133261 A (https://www.google.com/patents/US5133261?dq=inassignee:%22Kelsey+Jr+Charles+C%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DcsNVN3OOoKZyATa_4CAAw&ved=0CCAQ6wEwAA)

Devel small arms bullet
US 5116224 A (https://www.google.com/patents/US5116224?dq=inassignee:%22Kelsey+Jr+Charles+C%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DcsNVN3OOoKZyATa_4CAAw&ved=0CCcQ6wEwAQ)

[nycnoob]

Ammo Quest .380 ACP: Lehigh XP Xtreme Penetrator test in ballistic gel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LczfeWK9lHw&list=UUAWFWuY7JafjZNE_dG8BshA)


Ed Rogers has reliability issues during his range test (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eshbfczJLPo)

[Archimagirus]

Ed Rogers has reliability issues during his range test (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eshbfczJLPo)

Dude is limp wristing like nobody's business. You would think if you are having issues with cycling during testing ammo, you would start firing with a strong two handed grip. Cycling your slide with the off hand (I have never seen someone, on the internet or otherwise drop the slide with the firing hand and then switch hands and get a grip on the gun, outside of W.H.O. practice or drills) seems really strange to me too.

[LHS]

Dude is limp wristing like nobody's business. You would think if you are having issues with cycling during testing ammo, you would start firing with a strong two handed grip. Cycling your slide with the off hand (I have never seen someone, on the internet or otherwise drop the slide with the firing hand and then switch hands and get a grip on the gun, outside of W.H.O. practice or drills) seems really strange to me too.

That and he has obviously never heard the term 'hangfire'...

[Chuck Haggard]

People who use "clip" when they mean magazine annoy me. Maybe I'm too picky, but if you haven't mastered basic nomenclature then it's tough for me to be thinking you know WTF you are talking about.

[Al T.]

Got through about 3 minutes of the Rogers video. Made Nuttinfancy seem competent.

[JM Campbell]

This company is one of the only manufacturers that is making 300 Blackout sub projectiles that expand at 750-1200fps velocities to be shot from sbr or pistol configured AR platforms with a suppressor. Pricey but promising for that caliber. Most companies only offer projectiles that expand at above 1900fps.

I have no other interest with handgun ammo or other projectiles from this company, the dedicated 300 Blackout projectiles is the only thing I'm interested in hand loading for suppressed hog hunting.

https://www.lehighdefense.com/index.php/shop/bullets/maximum-expansion-subsonic/74/.308-maximum-expansion-194gr-subsonic-bullet-detail

Photo at the top of this page is of the 300 Blackout projectile.
https://www.lehighdefense.com/index.php/shop/bullets/maximum-expansion-subsonic

[5pins]

When you consider that ball ammo is the preferred load in the .380, I think this bullet may have some merit. If the terminal performance they calm is true.

In other calibers is think there are already good performing rounds at a more reasonable price.

[Rich]

People who use "clip" when they mean magazine annoy me. Maybe I'm too picky, but if you haven't mastered basic nomenclature then it's tough for me to be thinking you know WTK you are talking about.

I know of a detective who open up a gun shop and named it Clips and Grips.

[Unobtanium]

I would think that maybe people who jog in bear country would be particularly interested?

[DocGKR]

We have not tested the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator. We did test the Devel--nothing special or magical.

[nycnoob]

We did test the Devel--nothing special or magical.


How disappointing, it was an interesting round only if it was giving the same performance as expanding bullets through a different mechanism. However even if the Gell tests had been positive I would wonder if the behavior of the Gell under such a rotating carving motion, was a good stimulant for flesh. I mean, if the mechanism is in-fact a new one then it is possible that a different sort of stimulant would be needed to model it correctly.

[JHC]

I hope these loads pan out. For purposes calling for plenty of penetration their testing results look like many of their loads do have that going for them, without the rounded point of a typical FMJ.

[nycnoob]

TWANGnBANG goes to Lehigh Defense to see a Gel test of their ammo.
Here is the Youtube video: 357 MAG Xtreme Penetrator! Lehigh Defense 140gr XP (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6-JmzXF6Zk)

[nycnoob]

Here is a different product which appears to work on the same principles

http://polycaseammo.com/arx/




Patent Pending Design. Dynamically transfers both rotational and directional energy for rapid energy transfer to target.

Engineered fluid dynamics Creates maximum hydrodynamic ram (hram) upon penetrating fluid-filled targets, reducing risk of over-penetration.

Non-expanding. The precisely engineered design of the ARX™ bullet does not rely on expansion, but hydraulic force to transfer terminal energy and will not clog with clothing.

Precise. Polycase Cu/P™ ARX™ bullets deliver exceptional accuracy.

High velocity. Lighter bullet achieves higher velocity and develops less recoil for quicker follow up shots.

Advanced Materials. Designed to perform in a wide range of conditions.

Frangible. Lead-free, frangible design is 100% compatible with indoor ranges and reduces risk of ricochet.

Currently available in 9mm Luger and .380 auto. Coming soon in .40 S&W and .45 auto.



2962



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arqYKyeFczM

[ssb]

We have not tested the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator. We did test the Devel--nothing special or magical.

Can you clarify what you mean by "nothing special or magical?" Specifically, what's the deal with this?


The precisely engineered design of the ARX™ bullet does not rely on expansion, but hydraulic force to transfer terminal energy and will not clog with clothing.

Both the Lehigh and the ARX stuff that nycnoob posted (and, I assume, the Devel stuff as well -- all three rounds appear to be similar in construction) make mention of hydraulic something or other in their press stuff. Is this junk science wrapped in big words or is there something to it?

To my uneducated eye, the wound tracks in gel look pretty decent for a round that isn't expanding. They appear to be much larger than the diameter of the bullet, as seen in this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LczfeWK9lHw)ShootingTheBull410 video. That combined with the round's penetration makes it look like a viable choice, especially in a marginal round like .380.

[nycnoob]

Ammo Quest: Polycase ARX Inceptor test in .380 ACP and 9mm


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7_C6kNfjiA

TTAG has a full transcript for those who do not wish to watch the whole thing but prefer to read the transcript

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/04/shootingthebull410/ammo-quest-polycase-arx-inceptor-in-380-acp-and-9mm/

This is the conclusion:


Finally, while I am giving high praise to Polycase for blowing my mind in showing that a light and fast bullet can accomplish what I normally expect from a slow and heavy bullet, I confess to being a little uneasy about just how light the bullets are. The lighter the bullet, generally the more susceptible to deflection it will be, whether off of a bone or, bizarrely enough, just through gel or tissue itself. To me, that’s not a desirable trait, and I am not entirely convinced as to how these lightweight bullets will do when faced with having to penetrate through a forearm to get to the chest of the bad guy, where they’ll then have to get through a rib or sternum. They may do fine, but history and big-game hunters have taught us that big, solid, heavy bullets do best at that job done.

Overall I am very impressed with the Polycase Inceptor performance; far more impressed than I thought I was going to be. This ammo really is quite different from most any other bullet I’ve tested, and it delivered very good performance from the .380, and excellent performance from the 9mm. And, it seems to be that rarest of all bullets, one that can appeal to both the “light & fast” proponents and also do the type of tangible damage that will appeal to the “slow & heavy” proponents. And it does so with a new type of bullet, which is lead-free to boot. This is a really impressive debut for Polycase, and I look forward to trying out their ammo in other calibers to see how they perform.

[Shawn Dodson]

Not to hijack the thread but Ammo Quest's use of the term "damage track" is misleading and suggests the disruption produced by temporary cavitation in gelatin (the cracks) represents permanent soft tissue damage (i.e., permanent cavity). This is a common mistake of YouTube experts not having the requisite depth of knowledge to properly interpret and discuss test results observed in various soft tissue simulants.

[Chuck Haggard]

Not to hijack the thread but Ammo Quest's use of the term "damage track" is misleading and suggests the disruption produced by temporary cavitation in gelatin (the cracks) represents permanent soft tissue damage (i.e., permanent cavity). This is a common mistake of YouTube experts not having the requisite depth of knowledge to properly interpret and discuss test results observed in various soft tissue simulants.

Agreed

[JHC]

Not to hijack the thread but Ammo Quest's use of the term "damage track" is misleading and suggests the disruption produced by temporary cavitation in gelatin (the cracks) represents permanent soft tissue damage (i.e., permanent cavity). This is a common mistake of YouTube experts not having the requisite depth of knowledge to properly interpret and discuss test results observed in various soft tissue simulants.

Got it. With most youtube pistol tests I ignore the commentary and only look for penetration and factors around the condition of the slug.

[GJM]

Update request -- has anyone out there in PF land shot enough of these, in either the Lehigh or Underwood flavor, to have an opinion on reliability and penetration, for use in a field pistol?

[Chuck Haggard]

Update request -- has anyone out there in PF land shot enough of these, in either the Lehigh or Underwood flavor, to have an opinion on reliability and penetration, for use in a field pistol?

I think penetration is a given with this bullet, driven fast. QC and reliability would be the unknown without testing.

[Hauptmann]

I think penetration is a given with this bullet, driven fast. QC and reliability would be the unknown without testing.

Given the cost of the projectile, I'd rather use a good hard cast 22-Brinell bullet with a powder coat which is a fraction of the cost of those Lehigh penetrators.

[Chuck Haggard]

Given the cost of the projectile, I'd rather use a good hard cast 22-Brinell bullet with a powder coat which is a fraction of the cost of those Lehigh penetrators.

Not everbuddy reloads, so stuck with factory options.....

[JHC]

Update request -- has anyone out there in PF land shot enough of these, in either the Lehigh or Underwood flavor, to have an opinion on reliability and penetration, for use in a field pistol?

I bought several boxes and ran 40 through a G42 and it fed, cycled and printed well.

[GJM]

Given the cost of the projectile, I'd rather use a good hard cast 22-Brinell bullet with a powder coat which is a fraction of the cost of those Lehigh penetrators.

I haven't had good luck with hard cast loads feeding in service pistols.

[JHC]

About a year or year and a half ago a guy on LF reported running 200 successfully through his G42. I've not seen any users for service pistol calibers report beyond the youtube penetration test demos.

[El Cid]

Update request -- has anyone out there in PF land shot enough of these, in either the Lehigh or Underwood flavor, to have an opinion on reliability and penetration, for use in a field pistol?

I'm diving head first into them in 10mm. I chose the Underwood loading. First box of 20 cycled just fine. Many, many more to go.

[Tamara]

I understand the realities of marketing, but ad copy with that much woo-woo and hyperbole really makes me flinch. :/

[Chuck Haggard]

I understand the realities of marketing, but ad copy with that much woo-woo and hyperbole really makes me flinch. :/

Needs more SWAT ninjas, and flames.....

[Hauptmann]

I understand the realities of marketing, but ad copy with that much woo-woo and hyperbole really makes me flinch. :/

+1

It's too much of a s**t sandwich to swallow.

[GJM]

All I care about is that the load functions reliably and penetrates animal skulls.

[Tamara]

All I care about is that the load functions reliably and penetrates animal skulls.

It may well do that. I admit that my hype allergy is my own cross to bear. :o

[GJM]

I think the problem is that the market I represent, folks wanting to shoot through animal skulls with a service pistol, is probably big enough to sell about twenty boxes of twenty a year. So they have to jazz it up, making these solid penetrating bullets neatly as powerful as a small nuke.

[Chuck Haggard]

I think the problem is that the market I represent, folks wanting to shoot through animal skulls with a service pistol, is probably big enough to sell about twenty boxes of twenty a year. So they have to jazz it up, making these solid penetrating bullets neatly as powerful as a small nuke.

Yeah, I get the market is small, but for a small ammo maker it's not tough to do a few of those boxes. Good QC would bring good word of mouth, good word of mouth tends to sell defensive ammo.

[GJM]

Considering quality and desiring reliable function, would folks be more inclined to buy the Underwood or Lehigh loaded cartridge with these same bullets?

[JHC]

Considering quality and desiring reliable function, would folks be more inclined to buy the Underwood or Lehigh loaded cartridge with these same bullets?

In some of the dual offerings, the Underwood is loaded faster. My observed results with the very fast Buffalo Bore was so ugly, and picking up some criticisms of Underwood overall here and there led to my order placing with Lehigh directly. But who knows.

[GJM]

In some of the dual offerings, the Underwood is loaded faster. My observed results with the very fast Buffalo Bore was so ugly, and picking up some criticisms of Underwood overall here and there led to my order placing with Lehigh directly. But who knows.

I see velocity as double edged -- on one hand velocity can make the reliability suffer if outside the envelope the pistol was designed for but on the other hand, you want enough velocity to be able to penetrate a thick skull.

[El Cid]

Considering quality and desiring reliable function, would folks be more inclined to buy the Underwood or Lehigh loaded cartridge with these same bullets?

I looked at both and elected to try the Underwood. They are a smidgen less expensive, but use nickel cases over brass. They do post higher velocity on their site. I ran some of mine through a chronograph (weapon is a Glock 40). The owner emailed me back with answers to my questions and seemed user friendly.

The results:
1537
1525
1513
1523
1494
1503
1473
1457
1515
1515

I'm all for testing them against barriers, but I haven't seen anyone agree on what best replicates an animal skull. Or what kind of test would give an idea of performance with large man-eating critters?

On a side note, I have been looking for over a year and cannot find the Federal 10mm JSP Trophy Bonded ammo. I'd love to see how it does too.

[GJM]

The Federal TB 10mm load has been unavailable, starting shortly after it was released.

What grain bullet you shooting in .40, those velocity numbers seem high?

[JHC]

The Federal TB 10mm load has been unavailable, starting shortly after it was released.

What grain bullet you shooting in .40, those velocity numbers seem high?

He said Glock 40 as in a 6" 10mm. :D

[El Cid]

The Federal TB 10mm load has been unavailable, starting shortly after it was released.

What grain bullet you shooting in .40, those velocity numbers seem high?
Figures about the Federal load.

Those numbers are from the 140gr Extreme Penetrator I bought from Underwood. The gun has a 6" bbl which surely helps.

[GJM]

He said Glock 40 as in a 6" 10mm. :D

Ha, I read Glock 40 as "a Glock in .40," as opposed to the model 40 10mm. That explains why the velocity is so much higher than the 1,200 fps Underwood shows for the .40 S&W load.

[El Cid]

Ha, I read Glock 40 as "a Glock in .40," as opposed to the model 40 10mm. That explains why the velocity is so much higher than the 1,200 fps Underwood shows for the .40 S&W load.

Lol! I would have written Glock Fotay for a gun in that caliber. Or maybe now that I own a 10mm finally I can be like the 10mm snobs and call it 10mm Kurz.

Back to the topic at hand - any suggestions for a test medium that would give an idea how well the ammo would perform on a skull? Is there a thickness of steel that I should use? I'd be perfectly willing to sacrifice these: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0118AQFB8/ref=mp_s_a_1_5?qid=1464534067&sr=8-5&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=steel+targets&dpPl=1&dpID=51g8SCu7ALL&ref=plSrch

Maybe put them in a frame with space between them and see how many (if any) it will penetrate?

[Chuck Haggard]

Lol! I would have written Glock Fotay for a gun in that caliber. Or maybe now that I own a 10mm finally I can be like the 10mm snobs and call it 10mm Kurz.

Back to the topic at hand - any suggestions for a test medium that would give an idea how well the ammo would perform on a skull? Is there a thickness of steel that I should use? I'd be perfectly willing to sacrifice these: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B0118AQFB8/ref=mp_s_a_1_5?qid=1464534067&sr=8-5&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=steel+targets&dpPl=1&dpID=51g8SCu7ALL&ref=plSrch

Maybe put them in a frame with space between them and see how many (if any) it will penetrate?

Doc has suggested in the past that bullets that do well in the auto glass test are likely the ones to look at for that sort of thing.

[El Cid]

Doc has suggested in the past that bullets that do well in the auto glass test are likely the ones to look at for that sort of thing.

I can do that but after seeing the video where this particular bullet zips through bulletproof glass with ease, I figured a windshield would be a walk in the park. Just so we are on the same page, the bullet in question is a solid piece of copper. It doesn't have a jacket that a windshield could try to remove.

ETA video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WDvzul3rvTk

Just saw he did a couple other videos with the bullet proof glass. The 9mm Lehigh Defense Extreme Penetrator failed to get through. He mentions that 500 Mag, 5.7, and 454 Cassul did get through.

[Velo Dog]

If I understand correctly, bulletproof "glass" can actually be polycarbonate. Although a projectile that can penetrate such barriers may due well against bone, polymer is not silicate glass. Speed is required to defeat "bulletproof" barriers. Obstacles like windshields are good at impairing lightweight bullets even when impacting at high velocities.
Also, I think the +P+ version of that Lehigh 9mm would have given a better showing for that reason.

https://youtu.be/0piGeTVMZWs

At the 28 minute mark the +P+ loading penetrates IIA body armor that defeated the slower +P round.

[Velo Dog]

Even monolithic bullets are negatively affected by laminated glass.

https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Ballistic_Gel_Experiments/BARNES/Barnes_9mm_115gr_TAC-XP.pdf

[El Cid]

Even monolithic bullets are negatively affected by laminated glass.

https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Ballistic_Gel_Experiments/BARNES/Barnes_9mm_115gr_TAC-XP.pdf

That's a hollow point bullet though. We already know from Doc and others they don't do well through auto windshields. The EP bullets won't collapse the nose or have the petals stripped off. I'm happy to shoot them through a windshield but I'd have to use clear jel. I don't have access to the good stuff.

[Velo Dog]

The Lehigh website lists the penetration of the 10mm Xtreme Penetrator @1200fps as 26" of 10% standard FBI ballistics gelatin after 4 layers of denim.
The 9mm @1150fps penetrates over 30 inches.

Underwood loads the 10mm about 300 ft/s faster. This formula can estimate the penetration in wetpack =>
PEN(FN) (inches) = Bullet Weight (lbs) x Impact Velocity (fps) / Meplat Diameter (inches) / 5
http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/methods.html

This shows how to prepare wet pack => http://www.frfrogspad.com/wetpak.htm

Testing of non-deforming bullets => http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp

Guessing at the meplat, it would seem that the Lehigh 10mm projectile would struggle to match the penetration of traditional hard-cast big-bore revolver bullets in flesh and bone. Although the bullet construction and velocity are fine, the sectional density is fairly low and the meplat may prove less than optimal for maximum penetration due to a likely compromise for reliable function in semi-auto pistols. Unless a correlation between effects seen in gel testing and actual tissue damage is established, the solid copper lehigh would appear to perform similar to other non-expanding bullets.

[GJM]

I like reliable function, because many skookum loads don't seem to function reliably in semi-auto service pistols.

[El Cid]

Bought some stuff to try. What's the verdict for targets? Line up those steel plates I linked and see what happens?

http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz209/El_CidAF_ResQ/Mobile%20Uploads/image1_zpsxrk4dych.jpg

[GJM]

Bought some stuff to try. What's the verdict for targets? Line up those steel plates I linked and see what happens?

http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz209/El_CidAF_ResQ/Mobile%20Uploads/image1_zpsxrk4dych.jpg

How realistic you want to go?

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpskwtv8qap.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpskwtv8qap.jpeg.html)

[El Cid]

How realistic you want to go?

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpskwtv8qap.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpskwtv8qap.jpeg.html)

Lol! Never had to fire a weapon with my trousers full...

[El Cid]

Just in case anyone here wants to give it a go - the Federal 180gr Trophy Bonded JSP is finally back in stock. It's only taken Federal 2 years to make it available.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/127997/federal-premium-vital-shok-ammunition-10mm-auto-180-grain-trophy-bonded-jacketed-soft-point-box-of-20

[GJM]

Have you shot the Lehigh Xtreme penetrator load yet?

[El Cid]

Have you shot the Lehigh Xtreme penetrator load yet?

I've put 60 rounds through the gun and they ran perfectly. That heavy, long slide seems to help.

I have not yet done any penetration testing. I still need to order some small steel plates.

[Gray222]

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpskwtv8qap.jpeg

Yet another reason I carry a rifle

[Mjolnir]

I like how the describe it as "brown".

I describe it as "Grizzly"... [emoji102]


-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

[El Cid]

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpskwtv8qap.jpeg

Yet another reason I carry a rifle

Amen! I don't think anyone here wants a handgun to replace a rifle.

[El Cid]

Put another 40 rounds of the Underwood 140gr EP as well as 40 rounds of the Federal 180gr Trophy Bonded JSP. The gun ran them with no feed issues. The Federal was noticeably more stout than the Underwood which I found interesting. The other odd thing was that the slide stop lever didn't always catch when empty. I'm wondering if the speed of the slide is the cause. Ran some neutered 180gr stuff and it would catch like normal. Inspected it when I got home and it seems fine. I do have a 22lb RSA but haven't tried it yet.

This session was quick due to the heat. Next time I'll chronograph the Federal load. Also hoping to test them on some steel plates.

[GJM]

Thanks for update. I should get my 200 rounds of Underwood 140 EP in .40 this weekend, and test in a few Glock 23 pistols.

Odd on the slide stop, as in my experience, lower power factor has caused me problems with the slide not locking back. I also have some Trophy Bonded and Critical Duty 10 waiting that my wife and I will test in Glock 20/29 pistols. Two summers ago, when we first got Trophy Bonded, it felt and worked well in our Glock pistols.

[Velo Dog]

The other odd thing was that the slide stop lever didn't always catch when empty.

Did the slide fail to lock open with both Underwood and Federal sometimes or just one of the loads?

Since you will be testing only the relative penetration of different loads, I would suggest shooting various objects and comparing to a known performer. EXAMPLE: If you believe a .357 SIG will penetrate a grizzly skull, then shoot a few .357 rounds into...say, a row of 3/4" pine boards. http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-1-the-original-box-o-truth/ The load you're interested in then should penetrate at least as far as the .357 baseline. Then repeat the test using steel plates instead of wood, and so on.

Personally, I would feel more confident in using a proven magnum round as my benchmark or standard or whatever you call it. If any 10mm load could match the penetration of a 210 grain jacketed soft point .41 Magnum @ 1300 fps through various hard and soft substances, I would go with that and call it a day. It still might not do the trick on a large bear, but it is probably as good as it gets in a duty size autoloading pistol.

[GJM]

FIFY




Personally, I would feel more confident in using a proven magnum round as my benchmark or standard or whatever you call it. If any 10mm load could match the penetration of a 240 grain hard cast bullet, like the Federal Cast Core, or a wide meplat hard cast .41 Magnum bullet @ 1200 fps through various hard and soft substances, I would go with that and call it a day. It still might not do the trick on a large bear, but it is probably as good as it gets in a duty size autoloading pistol.

[Velo Dog]

GJM

This might come close.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=394

[GJM]

GJM

This might come close.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=394

No feedy in Glock 20/29 pistols!

[1slow]

No feedy in Glock 20/29 pistols!

Which brings us back to HK USP 45 for .45 Super.

[El Cid]

GJM

This might come close.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=394

Snagged some of that to try. Waiting to test it when I have the chrono set up though.
http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz209/El_CidAF_ResQ/Mobile%20Uploads/image1_zpsxrk4dych.jpg

[GJM]

Which brings us back to HK USP 45 for .45 Super.

yes, by process of elimination.


Snagged some of that to try. Waiting to test it when I have the chrono set up though.
http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz209/El_CidAF_ResQ/Mobile%20Uploads/image1_zpsxrk4dych.jpg

wonder if the light will hurt reliability, like with the .40 Glocks?

[El Cid]

wonder if the light will hurt reliability, like with the .40 Glocks?
So far it's hasn't. I can't recall the last time I carried a pistol without a light so I figured I'd start with it and if it has issues, remove the light to see if it's a cause.

I really like the SBAL-PL but I won't even buy the HD sights for this thing until I'm confident it's going tondo what I want.

[Kennydale]

https://youtu.be/ClJcJ8LQFbQ


This is an interesting gel test. I'd rather have the HST for cost effectiveness


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LittleLebowski]

yes, by process of elimination.



wonder if the light will hurt reliability, like with the .40 Glocks?

I doubt it.

[GJM]

I doubt it.

Please elaborate on your thinking? I don't have any experience but would be surprised if more than ten people world wide have shot more than 250 rounds of heavy 10 through a Glock with a light attached.

[LittleLebowski]

Please elaborate on your thinking? I don't have any experience but would be surprised if more than ten people world wide have shot more than 250 rounds of heavy 10 through a Glock with a light attached.

The fact that the dual spring RSA was specifically designed to fix the problem with .40 Glocks and WMLs makes me think that said problem will be lessened or nonexistent in 10mm guns.

[GJM]

The fact that the dual spring RSA was specifically designed to fix the problem with .40 Glocks and WMLs makes me think that said problem will be lessened or nonexistent in 10mm guns.

I hope you are correct. I don't believe Glock has tested heavy field loads in the 20/29, so we will have to see what works. My guess is that the issue is as much bullet shape as power.

[El Cid]

I hope you are correct. I don't believe Glock has tested heavy field loads in the 20/29, so we will have to see what works. My guess is that the issue is as much bullet shape as power.

Your comment makes me wonder if they did any testing with the G40. They are marketing it for hunting. Hunting loads in 10mm tend to be on the heavier side right?

[Tamara]

The fact that the dual spring RSA was specifically designed to fix the problem with .40 Glocks and WMLs makes me think that said problem will be lessened or nonexistent in 10mm guns.

I can't speak to Gen4 guns, but Gen3 10mm Glocks are woefully undersprung.

[GJM]

Your comment makes me wonder if they did any testing with the G40. They are marketing it for hunting. Hunting loads in 10mm tend to be on the heavier side right?

Good question. Testing for a hunting gun, though, is probably easier, since a high percentage of hunts are one shot, and the consequences of a stoppage are less significant than using it to defend yourself.

[Lester Polfus]

Please elaborate on your thinking? I don't have any experience but would be surprised if more than ten people world wide have shot more than 250 rounds of heavy 10 through a Glock with a light attached.

Well, I've got thousands of 200 grain XTPs and FMJs @1150 to 1175 through a Gen 3 with a light without problems. I don't know if that's what you consider "heavy." That's about the limit of reputable load data but not as fast as some of the velocities advertised by some of the makers of self depriming ammo.

The Gen 4 isn't fully vetted yet but plenty of rounds with the light are on the list.

[Lester Polfus]

The Lehigh website lists the penetration of the 10mm Xtreme Penetrator @1200fps as 26" of 10% standard FBI ballistics gelatin after 4 layers of denim.
The 9mm @1150fps penetrates over 30 inches.

Underwood loads the 10mm about 300 ft/s faster. This formula can estimate the penetration in wetpack =>
PEN(FN) (inches) = Bullet Weight (lbs) x Impact Velocity (fps) / Meplat Diameter (inches) / 5
http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/methods.html

This shows how to prepare wet pack => http://www.frfrogspad.com/wetpak.htm

Testing of non-deforming bullets => http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp

Guessing at the meplat, it would seem that the Lehigh 10mm projectile would struggle to match the penetration of traditional hard-cast big-bore revolver bullets in flesh and bone. Although the bullet construction and velocity are fine, the sectional density is fairly low and the meplat may prove less than optimal for maximum penetration due to a likely compromise for reliable function in semi-auto pistols. Unless a correlation between effects seen in gel testing and actual tissue damage is established, the solid copper lehigh would appear to perform similar to other non-expanding bullets.

In 2002 I tested 200 grain, 10mm XTPs at 1150 to 1175 fps under the guidance of some body who knew what they were doing. Average penetration through 4ld was about 22" with expansion at .55".

I've not shot any hard cast, although I've plans to. Brassfetcher shows 37" to 39" with 200 grain hard cast.

[Lester Polfus]

I like reliable function, because many skookum loads don't seem to function reliably in semi-auto service pistols.

If I ever start a 10mm ammo company in my garage I'm naming it "Skookum Ammo." I'll send you a free case.

Looks like I can Amazon Prime a windshield for a JK jeep for $116. That might be fun bullet testing material.

[GJM]

Well, I've got thousands of 200 grain XTPs and FMJs @1150 to 1175 through a Gen 3 with a light without problems. I don't know if that's what you consider "heavy." That's about the limit of reputable load data but not as fast as some of the velocities advertised by some of the makers of self depriming ammo.

The Gen 4 isn't fully vetted yet but plenty of rounds with the light are on the list.

Nope, I don't consider the XTP in 10 a "heavy" load. The Hornady factory 180 and 200 XTP loads have fed in every Glock 20 and 29 we have tried them in, and are what my wife carries in her 20 and 29. I also don't consider the Hornady Critical Duty or Trophy Bonded 180 as in the heavy category.

Heavy to me means 200 grain or heavier, hard cast, or wide meplat FMJ rounds from Corbon, Buffalo Bore or Underwood, marketed as "penetrator loads, with a power factor of 240 or greater. Those are the ones that choke our Glock and S&W 1066/1076 pistols. I think it is a combination of bullet shape and the power factor that causes problems with these loads. In contrast, the XTP has a more rounded profile.

Incidentally, looking at the Underwood Lehigh Xtreme penetrators, their shape looks like they should feed. We don't need 48 inches of penetration to get through a grizzly's skull, but it needs to penetrate tough skull and not deflect.

[Lester Polfus]

Gotcha. 200@1175 is 235 power factor.

What makes 240 your floor?

[GJM]

Gotcha. 200@1175 is 235 power factor.

What makes 240 your floor?


Because the boutique loads seem to start at 200 grains at 1,200 or greater PF.

[Lester Polfus]

Because the boutique loads seem to start at 200 grains at 1,200 or greater PF.

Yes. The original "Norma Spec" ammo was a 200 grain bullet at 1200 fps, out of a 5" barrel. Like most things, that ammo kinda sorta hit those specs but only if the weather was perfect and you held your mouth just right.

A 200@1200 is the limit of all the reputable load data out there, so when Underwood, Buffalo Bore, etc, advertise ammo that greatly exceeds that 200@1200 mark, I have to look askance. They either 1) have access to a magic powder that is perfect for 10mm that nobody else has or 2) are just loading the cartridges super hot and getting away with it (most of the time).

I doubt it's #1. There aren't that many holes left in the burn rate charts for some kind of magic 10mm specific powder. Folks who have disassembled their loads report finding Blue Dot, Longshot, and 800x powders, among the other usual 10mm suspects.

Shooting their ammo puts you in a kind of nebulous ground in between shooting your Uncle Bubbas handloads that are way hot because you know "the lawyers" water down the loading manuals, and shooting ammo from a reputable company like Federal, Speer, etc. They are technically "factory loads" but don't appear benefit from the same levels of quality control and engineering.

I think you are correct that is a mix of power factor and bullet shape that are the problem.

I don't think I've asked you this: When you were trying the heavy, hard cast, wide meplat loads in 10mm, did you try a 10 round magazine, the one they sell for the "ban states?"

[El Cid]

I was able to get some more ammo across the chronograph. The Buffalo Bore did have one round hang on the ramp which chambered as I struck the mag. One of the Fed JSP rounds did the same. Everything else fed without issue. I'm still using the OEM RSA.


Buffalo Bore 220gr Hard Cast Flat Nose:
1147
1149
1141
1147
1150
1164
1164
1139
1136
1165


Corbon Hunter 200gr RNPN:
1179
1193
1184
1165
1178
1180
1197
1186
1169
1206


Federal Trophy Bonded 180gr JSP:
1334
1348
1355
1364
1336
1357
1359
1361
1344
1353

[GJM]

I was able to get some more ammo across the chronograph. The Buffalo Bore did have one round hang on the ramp which chambered as I struck the mag. One of the Fed JSP rounds did the same. Everything else fed without issue. I'm still using the OEM RSA.


Buffalo Bore 220gr Hard Cast Flat Nose:
1147
1149
1141
1147
1150
1164
1164
1139
1136
1165


Corbon Hunter 200gr RNPN:
1179
1193
1184
1165
1178
1180
1197
1186
1169
1206


Federal Trophy Bonded 180gr JSP:
1334
1348
1355
1364
1336
1357
1359
1361
1344
1353

Thanks for posting this. My quick math shows the BB hard cast at about 250 PF, the Corbon 200 at about 237 PF, and the Federal at about 243 PF.

Did you experience 2 stoppages out of 30 rounds fired, or were the 2 out of a much larger number of rounds fired? If 2 out of 30, that works out to about a 6.66% rate, which is more pr less the level of issues I have historically experienced with heavy loads in a Glock 20/29, and concluded was too great a rate for me to feel comfortable relying on these rounds for defense. (We have yet to experience a stoppage with Federal Trophy Bonded.)

Friday afternoon, I spoke with Hornady Customer service. The guy I spoke with, who seemed credible, said that for use penetrating a bear skull, no comparison -- that the 10mm Critical Duty would be much better than either the 180 or 200 XTP bullet.

[El Cid]

Thanks for posting this. My quick math shows the BB hard cast at about 250 PF, the Corbon 200 at about 237 PF, and the Federal at about 243 PF.

Did you experience 2 stoppages out of 30 rounds fired, or were the 2 out of a much larger number of rounds fired? If 2 out of 30, that works out to about a 6.66% rate, which is more pr less the level of issues I have historically experienced with heavy loads in a Glock 20/29, and concluded was too great a rate for me to feel comfortable relying on these rounds for defense. (We have yet to experience a stoppage with Federal Trophy Bonded.)

Friday afternoon, I spoke with Hornady Customer service. The guy I spoke with, who seemed credible, said that for use penetrating a bear skull, no comparison -- that the 10mm Critical Duty would be much better than either the 180 or 200 XTP bullet.

Interesting about the Critical Duty. I will look at trying some. Next up will be the penetration test. I wanted to see if a butcher or rancher might have a large pig carcass I can use to test the skull. No idea how it compares to a bear, but feral hogs seem like one of natures more robust designs.

The 2 stoppages were in just the 30 rounds from today - but I've not had any other stoppages prior to this. The gun has a total of 853 rounds through it so far. Only 150 are the "stout" ammo (those listed above and the Underwood EP). Whichever round or rounds I settle on will get a much larger sample size put through it. I also expect the 22lb RSA would have mitigated the malfunctions today based on how easily it went into battery when I tapped the mag.

[Lester Polfus]

El Cid, thanks for posting those. Are you going to try the Glockmeister recoil spring assembly?

[El Cid]

El Cid, thanks for posting those. Are you going to try the Glockmeister recoil spring assembly?

I have the NDZ brand RSA. I haven't shot with it because I was trying to wait until the gun started malfunctioning or I saw frame damage before using after-market parts. I suppose I should just give it a go and see how it feels and functions with the various loads.

[GJM]

I have the NDZ brand RSA. I haven't shot with it because I was trying to wait until the gun started malfunctioning or I saw frame damage before using after-market parts. I suppose I should just give it a go and see how it feels and functions with the various loads.

I tried a Wolff guide rod and heavier recoil spring in a few of our Gen 3 SF model 20 pistols, and it didn't seem to make much difference.

Just remembered, a few years ago, I got some Critical Duty 10mm when it was brand new, and an exclusive to Cabela's. Went through +/- 150 rounds of it without a stoppage in a few 20 and 29 Glock pistols.

If I had to bet 10 PF dollars on reliability and penetration, I would think it will turn out to be the Hornady Critical Duty and possibly the Lehigh Xtreme penetrator, as the bullet profile looks like it should feed better than the FMJ-FP profiles that I have had issues with.

[JHC]

I tried a Wolff guide rod and heavier recoil spring in a few of our Gen 3 SF model 20 pistols, and it didn't seem to make much difference.

Just remembered, a few years ago, I got some Critical Duty 10mm when it was brand new, and an exclusive to Cabela's. Went through +/- 150 rounds of it without a stoppage in a few 20 and 29 Glock pistols.

If I had to bet 10 PF dollars on reliability and penetration, I would think it will turn out to be the Hornady Critical Duty and possibly the Lehigh Xtreme penetrator, as the bullet profile looks like it should feed better than the FMJ-FP profiles that I have had issues with.

Compare critical duty winshield to gel test results between calibers and you might wonder about carrying the much larger 10mm guns.

[GJM]

Compare critical duty winshield to gel test results between calibers and you might wonder about carrying the much larger 10mm guns.

Can you elaborate, I have slow internet for a few days. Think it penetrates better than Gold Dot 165?

I shot 45 rounds of Lehigh xtreme .40 through my Glock 23 today. Small sample but no stoppages. Gun felt good shooting it, and it hit POA/POI. It seemed accurate as I could hit an eight inch steel at 50 at will with it. I shot some one hand with a loose grip as part of the test without issue. Liking this load so far, for field use.

[JHC]

Can you elaborate, I have slow internet for a few days. Think it penetrates better than Gold Dot 165?

I shot 45 rounds of Lehigh xtreme .40 through my Glock 23 today. Small sample but no stoppages. Gun felt good shooting it, and it hit POA/POI. It seemed accurate as I could hit an eight inch steel at 50 at will with it. I shot some one hand with a loose grip as part of the test without issue. Liking this load so far, for field use.

It's just that the Critical Duty line performs pretty consistently across calibers in the windshield gel or plywood gels tests. For example 10mm and .40 were both measured at 14" of gel after both plywood or windshield glass.






http://www.hornadyle.com/products/handgun/critical-duty/175-gr-40-s-and-w

[GJM]

Shot another 20 rounds of Underwood Lehigh Xtreme .40 through the G23 this morning. No failures.

First I shot the head box at 25, only three rounds as I have a limited amount of ammo, and the POI was appropriate and similar to the Gold Dot 165 that I shot as a control. Look carefully, and you see the shape of the bullet head in the cardboard.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpsrqg6hoin.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpsrqg6hoin.jpeg.html)

Next, I shot three rounds at 50 yards, and POI was perfect.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpsa1ds5vg4.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpsa1ds5vg4.jpeg.html)

Look closely again, and see the bullet shape:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpsuw9sno73.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpsuw9sno73.jpeg.html)

[El Cid]

Saw the Hornady Critical Duty (all Hornady ammo actually) is on sale at Midway USA. I snagged a box as well as a couple other brands in 10mm to mess with.

[El Cid]

Hmm. Guess I can't edit a post after a few minutes.

Here's what I bought:
http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz209/El_CidAF_ResQ/FullSizeRender_zpsjsuvdmif.jpg

Not sure the DT ammo will feed but it's just a box.

[GJM]

That BB 200 FMJ load chokes our Glock 29's every magazine. Look forward to hearing how it runs for you.

[GJM]

My wife shot some of the .40 Underwood with the Lehigh Xtreme 140 grain ammo through her Glock 27 this morning. No function problems and the POI was right on at 25 yards. I also shot a few rounds of it through the Glock 35 and USP 40, and POI was also right on at 25 yards. Based on shooting it through a 23, 27, 35 and USP 40, I am reasonably confident that POI is similarly to conventional ball and JHP ammo. Yet to have a stoppage, but with only about 100 rounds fired, I am optimistic if not yet confident on function.

I also shot some Critical Duty 10mm through my G3 SF Glock 29, and it both ran and hit POA/POI.

For an outdoorsy field pistol, I am thinking some combination of Hornady Critical Duty as a tough JHP and the Xtreme penetrator as a second load, makes a good combination.

[GJM]

Cross posted from USP thread:


I would like to throw an online version of a hissy fit.

So, I get my Gen 3 Glock 29SF running today, with Hornady Critical Duty. Marvel at how small it is to carry, and how easy to shoot, compared to the HK. Look at the penetration and velocity data for the Hornady 10mm load, and worry that it is closer to .40 S&W performance, than 10mm. Drag out the new stash of 2016 Federal Trophy Bonded 10mm, which while not crazy hot/heavy, is more like what one associates with 10mm. Three rounds into the first magazine of Trophy Bonded, I get a stoppage. Change magazines, fill with Trophy Bonded, and a few rounds into another magazine, get another stoppage. In disgust, I put down the Glock 29 and shoot 63 rounds of .45 Super and .acp through my USP 45, of course without issue. So the Glock 29 really seems to work well with .40 S&W power factor ammo.

[JHC]

Cross posted from USP thread:


I would like to throw an online version of a hissy fit.

So, I get my Gen 3 Glock 29SF running today, with Hornady Critical Duty. Marvel at how small it is to carry, and how easy to shoot, compared to the HK. Look at the penetration and velocity data for the Hornady 10mm load, and worry that it is closer to .40 S&W performance, than 10mm. Drag out the new stash of 2016 Federal Trophy Bonded 10mm, which while not crazy hot/heavy, is more like what one associates with 10mm. Three rounds into the first magazine of Trophy Bonded, I get a stoppage. Change magazines, fill with Trophy Bonded, and a few rounds into another magazine, get another stoppage. In disgust, I put down the Glock 29 and shoot 63 rounds of .45 Super and .acp through my USP 45, of course without issue. So the Glock 29 really seems to work well with .40 S&W power factor ammo.

Meanwhile the .40 CD matches the 10mm CD in even trimmer packages. I wonder if Lawman .40 uses a legit stout FMJ? ;)

[Tamara]

So, I get my Gen 3 Glock 29SF running today, with Hornady Critical Duty. Marvel at how small it is to carry, and how easy to shoot, compared to the HK. Look at the penetration and velocity data for the Hornady 10mm load, and worry that it is closer to .40 S&W performance, than 10mm.

When I owned a Glock 29 I found that it would get the same or slightly greater velocities as the same company's equivalent .40 loads...if the .40 were fired from a Glock 24. Last 180gr XTPs I chronoed from my 20 were running 1100 and change, which is ~150fps north of pretty much any 180gr .40 load I can think of.

[GJM]

A friend sent me this link, referencing where noted bear guide Phil Shoemaker, stopped a brown bear on the AK Peninsula with a DAO S&W 9mm:

See Shoemaker stopping bear with 9mm!


http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/11329740/4

tion: 9mm, 40 S&W, 45 ACP? [Re: bwinters]
458Win Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 2871
Loc: AK peninsula
In the past 33 years of living and guiding on the Alaska peninsula from our families homestead I have never had to kill a bear in defense of live or property. DLP as the state refers to it.
Two days ago I was guiding a married couple and we bumped into a bear at close range on our way to the fishing stream. We yelled and it ran but circled around and then charged. The couple were 10 or 12 feet behind me and the bear came out of the brush so close it was within 3 feet of my clients before I could shoot. They both intentionally fell to the ground just before I shot the bear behind the shoulder. It immediately spun and I continued shooting, all the while keeping the position of my clients in perspective. After six quick hits the bear turned and ran 20 yards and died .

We were planning on a quick couple hours of fishing and rather than packing my normal S&W 44 Mtn gun I was packing a S&W 3953 dao auto with 147 gr Buffalo Bore 9mm ammo.






Edited by 458Win (07/23/16)
_________________________
Phil Shoemaker - Alaska Master Guide
NRA Benefactor
Alaska Hunter Education Instructor
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

Anyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.

[JHC]

A friend sent me this link, referencing where noted bear guide Phil Shoemaker, stopped a brown bear on the AK Peninsula with a DAO S&W 9mm:

See Shoemaker stopping bear with 9mm!


http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/11329740/4

tion: 9mm, 40 S&W, 45 ACP? [Re: bwinters]
458Win Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 2871
Loc: AK peninsula
In the past 33 years of living and guiding on the Alaska peninsula from our families homestead I have never had to kill a bear in defense of live or property. DLP as the state refers to it.
Two days ago I was guiding a married couple and we bumped into a bear at close range on our way to the fishing stream. We yelled and it ran but circled around and then charged. The couple were 10 or 12 feet behind me and the bear came out of the brush so close it was within 3 feet of my clients before I could shoot. They both intentionally fell to the ground just before I shot the bear behind the shoulder. It immediately spun and I continued shooting, all the while keeping the position of my clients in perspective. After six quick hits the bear turned and ran 20 yards and died .

We were planning on a quick couple hours of fishing and rather than packing my normal S&W 44 Mtn gun I was packing a S&W 3953 dao auto with 147 gr Buffalo Bore 9mm ammo.






Edited by 458Win (07/23/16)
_________________________
Phil Shoemaker - Alaska Master Guide
NRA Benefactor
Alaska Hunter Education Instructor
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

Anyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.

Pretty cool. I wish he'd brained it too and proven the point about hard .355s ;)

[GJM]

Phil Shoemaker is a renown Alaska bear guide, who has been hunting and living around bears for decades, and forgotten more than most know about bears. It is interesting that he offered this advice, and not long after, got to field test that advice!

"For protection from bears you don't want, or need, any expanding bullet. All you need is one you can shoot well and rapidly as you will need to poke a hole through the brain or CNS. Your 357 setup is perfectly suitable for that purpose. I know for a fact that it works on our much larger brown bears. If you prefer some brand of 9mm, Buffalo Bore makes a heavy, hard cast 147 gr bullet that gives 1100 fps from a 4" barrel and I personally wound not feel the least bit inadequate in grinning down any black bear with a magazine full of those."

[GJM]

More info here, on Buffalo Bore website:



Tim,

Two days ago I was guiding a couple from NY on a fishing trip and decided to pack my S&W 3954 pistol . When we were approaching the stream we bumped into a large boar who must have been sleeping as we were talking loud just so we wouldn't suprise one. Over the past 33 years I have lived and guided here on the Alaska peninsula I have never had to kill a bear in defense of life but this bear was different.

We were in thick brush and I was only 8 or 10 feet from the bear when he started growling and huffing. I began yelling and it eventually ran around, behind my two clients, into the brush. But within 15 seconds it came charging back from the area behind us and popped out of the brush 10 feet from me ! I had the little S&W in my hands and was thinking I was probably going to have to shoot it but as it cleared the brush it headed toward my clients. The man had enough sense to grab his wife and fall backwards into the tall grass. The bear seemed to loose track of them, even though it was less than 3 feet away from them and it was highly agitated ! It then swung toward me, I was 6 or 8 feet away, and I fired the first shot into the area between the head and shoulder. It growled and started wildly thrashing around, still basically on the feet of my clients. My next shot hit it in the shoulder and it began twisting and biting at the hits and I continued firing as fast as I could see vitals. Five shots later it turned into the brush and I hit it again and it twisted and fell 20 feet from us !

We hiked out and I flew back to camp to report the incident to F&G and pick up my daughter to go back and skin the bear for F&G.

You are the first person I have told this story to as I haven't decided whether to write it up or not, or where, but thought you should know that your ammo WORKS. We recovered 4 of the bullets and I took a photo of the back of the bear after the hide was removed that shows an entry on one side of the back and the tip of the bullet on the off side ...

Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

[GJM]

Cross posted from USP thread:


I would like to throw an online version of a hissy fit.

So, I get my Gen 3 Glock 29SF running today, with Hornady Critical Duty. Marvel at how small it is to carry, and how easy to shoot, compared to the HK. Look at the penetration and velocity data for the Hornady 10mm load, and worry that it is closer to .40 S&W performance, than 10mm. Drag out the new stash of 2016 Federal Trophy Bonded 10mm, which while not crazy hot/heavy, is more like what one associates with 10mm. Three rounds into the first magazine of Trophy Bonded, I get a stoppage. Change magazines, fill with Trophy Bonded, and a few rounds into another magazine, get another stoppage. In disgust, I put down the Glock 29 and shoot 63 rounds of .45 Super and .acp through my USP 45, of course without issue. So the Glock 29 really seems to work well with .40 S&W power factor ammo.

This afternoon, I asked my wife to shoot what was left of the box of Trophy Bonded in her Glock 20 SF. First round, she had a stoppage, identical to what I was experiencing with the Glock 29. Federal must have done something with the load that has negatively effected reliability in Glock pistols. Wish I had a 1066/1076 here to test it.

[Chuck Haggard]

This afternoon, I asked my wife to shoot what was left of the box of Trophy Bonded in her Glock 20 SF. First round, she had a stoppage, identical to what I was experiencing with the Glock 29. Federal must have done something with the load that has negatively effected reliability in Glock pistols. Wish I had a 1066/1076 here to test it.

Fails to feed?

[GJM]

Fails to feed?

Yes, with the slide most of the way open.

[Chuck Haggard]

Yes, with the slide most of the way open.

Sounds very similar to my Glock 22 problems of record

[1slow]

Makes me ever so glad I replaced my GL20s, GL29s with HK USP 45s !

[LittleLebowski]

Out of curiosity, what exact malfunctions are you seeing with your Glock 10mms?

[GJM]

Yes, with the slide most of the way open.


Out of curiosity, what exact malfunctions are you seeing with your Glock 10mms?

See above

[LittleLebowski]

Post a picture of the malfunction. Have you measured good ammo versus bad ammo COAL?

[Lester Polfus]

Have you measured good ammo versus bad ammo COAL?

This, and if you wouldn't mind too terribly much, what was the meplat size on the offending hardcast loads. I have theories.

[Lester Polfus]

Pretty cool. I wish he'd brained it too and proven the point about hard .355s ;)

Yes. During some lean years, the only "trail gun" I had was a Glock 19 loaded with 147 grain, brass jacketed flat points. Maybe I wasn't so ill equipped after all.

Hearing of somebody stopping a brown bear attack with a 9mm makes me think they got away with something, regarding terminal ballistics. But equipment wise, he had the advantage of a gun he could get good hits with quickly. I've said it before, but I think the folks who are loading .44's and .454's to nuclear levels for close in bear defense are handicapping themselves unless they get a perfect shot to the noggin at the first go.

Mainly though, Shoemaker managed to eat a shit sandwhich and get good hits on the bear in what sounds like a wild melee without shooting his clients in the process.

[GJM]

Been on the run today, but will try to get some measurements tomorrow afternoon. No pictures taken of the stoppages in the G29 and G20.

[GJM]

http://homernews.com/homer-news/local-news/2016-08-03/hiker-injured-in-kachemak-bay-state-park-bear-attack

STAFF WRITER
A Homer man shot and killed a charging sow brown bear at Humpy Creek last Friday. Kim Woodman, 57, shot the bear five times with a 10mm handgun before the bear fell about 6 feet from him. While backing away from the sow, Woodman fell and accidentally shot himself in the left foot.

Woodman was able to get to his skiff and return to Homer, where he checked into the South Peninsula Hospital emergency room. Woodman had no injuries from the bear, said Jack Blackwell, area superintendent of Alaska State Parks, Kenai-Prince William Sound region.

Blackwell said Woodman surprised a brown bear with two cubs while hiking about 4 p.m. July 29 off the trail along the southwest fork of Humpy Creek in Kachemak Bay State Park. The bears were probably feeding on pink salmon in the creek. Woodman filled out a defense of life and property report, and Park Ranger Jason Okuly and Alaska Department of Fish and Game biologist Jason Herreman went to the scene and found the dead sow bear. They reported the sow had two gunshot wounds, one below the right eye and one in the chest.

They recovered the skull and paws to prevent trophy looting. The carcass was about 6 feet from where Woodman tripped.

“It was fairly close,” Blackwell said.

Fish and Game Kenai Area biologist Jeff Selinger said the sow had been lactating, but it’s unknown if the sow had cubs of the year or older cubs. Older cubs would have a good chance of surviving, but younger cubs would not. Selinger said Fish and Game won’t make an effort to look for the cubs unless they hear reports of the cubs hanging out in the area. Biologists would have to be certain the cubs were orphaned and not another sow’s cubs.

“We care about the animals. The thing we want to avoid is making a bad situation worse,” Selinger said.

Selinger said this is the first defense of life bear shooting he knows of since 2002, when he began working for Fish and Game on the Kenai Peninsula. Black bears are more common in Kachemak Bay State Park.

People who shoot bears in self defense are normally required to salvage the hide and skull, but because Woodman was injured, he did not have to do so, Selinger said.

This is not Woodman’s first defense of life bear shooting. In September 1992 while moose hunting near Ohlson Mountain, he shot a brown bear Woodman said was stalking him. According to an Oct. 1, 1992, Homer News article, Woodman injured the bear with a rifle shot at close range and then killed it when the bullet failed to pierce the bear’s skull and it got up.

Woodman does not have a public phone number, and he did not return a Facebook message for comment.

Michael Armstrong can be reached at michael.armstrong@homernews.com.

[El Cid]

Okay folks - the steel plates I intend to try and poke holes into have arrived (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0112P836O/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) It's 3/8" AR500.

My question is about the testing protocols. I don't now, nor will I in the foreseeable future, have access to any manner of ballistic gel. I have no phonebooks or stack of newspapers, so collection of the projectiles will probably have to be jugs of water.

Also, what distance is appropriate for this. I really don't want to be sprayed with spall or other debris. But I don't want to read comments like, "you were too close/far/standing on one foot/smiling/etc. so the fact that it penetrated doesn't mean sqaut." The proof of concept for me is to use this as a woods gun. I have no access to suicidal bears and moose... My goal is to shoot perpendicular to the plates and if the bullet makes it through, then try hitting them at an angle since most skulls are sloped.

Thoughts? Recommendations? Advice?

Hoping to do this in the coming weeks if weather cooperates. Thanks!

[GJM]

Make sure to test some penetrator ammo through a new M, as one in 9mm was my planned bear gun next summer. :)

[El Cid]

Make sure to test some penetrator ammo through a new M, as one in 9mm was my planned bear gun next summer. :)

lol! No "M" guns here. I just know people who are close to the inner circle.

I will be shooting these through the G40:

Underwood Extreme Penetrator 140gr
Federal Trophy bonded JSP 180gr
Corbon RNPN 200gr
Buffalo Bore HCFN 220gr
Hornady Critical Duty 175gr
Double Tap Hard Cast 230gr
Buffalo Bore FMJ 200gr

For the loads I haven't run through the chronograph yet, I'll do 10 each of them.

Any bets on which rounds will make it through the steel? My money is on the Underwood EP - but that's because I saw the video of it zipping through bullet proof glass.

[El Cid]

Well it appears 3/8" AR500 steel is too much to ask of these rounds. I tried 4 of them and they barely made a dent. I tried the Buffalo Bore Hard Cast Flat Nose 220gr, Corbon RNPN (FMJ) 200gr, Federal Trophy Bonded JSP, and Underwood Extreme Penetrator 140gr. I was able to recover the Underwood and it is not a flat piece of copper. Next to it in the photo is the base of the Federal JSP. Any other test media y'all want to see used? I'm thinking 1/8" steel will do better.

http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz209/El_CidAF_ResQ/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_5125_zpsw9ccpjbm.jpg

http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz209/El_CidAF_ResQ/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_5126_zps0b6nkxfh.jpg

http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz209/El_CidAF_ResQ/Mobile%20Uploads/IMG_5127_zpsmfblpmje.jpg


Now for the chronograph numbers. As before, all from a Glock 40 (6"bbl)

Hornady Critical Duty FlexLock 175gr
1150
1143
1130
1137
1140
1140
1145
1145
1128
1142

Buffalo Bore FMJ Flat Nose 200gr
1192
1187
1182
1179
1184
1172
1177
1184
1178
1183

Double Tap Hard Cast 230gr
1077
1059
1054
1075
1076
1067
1066
1066
1070
1061

* On the first shot with the DT, the slide didn't close. Tapped the mag and it went into battery and didn't have any more issues. Still using the OEM RSA.

[GJM]

Thanks for this. Does it look like the Lehigh penetrator held together the best of these loads?

[El Cid]

Thanks for this. Does it look like the Lehigh penetrator held together the best of these loads?

You're quite welcome. I couldn't find the other rounds (or the rest of the Fed JSP). The EP round is pretty impressive looking though. You can still see the cross shape. Wish I had a scale to weigh it. I plan to get some clay blocks to put behind the 1/8" steel next time. Hoping that and some water jugs as backup will recover the rounds.

[GJM]

What I like about the Lehigh is that it has a very FMJ style bullet profile, which I believe makes it feed well in semi-auto pistols, and being made of a monolithic material, it seems likely to hold together, when hitting tough mediums.

[Hideeho]

Do you think the Lehigh/Underwood offerings are good options when complying with state/local FMJ requirements?

[El Cid]

Do you think the Lehigh/Underwood offerings are good options when complying with state/local FMJ requirements?

I wouldn't use these on the street. Too much penetration. What caliber are you talking? In 9mm if I had to use FMJ I'd go with a flat nose 147gr.

[Hideeho]

9mm. Thanks. Back to square one, FMJ = 45 ACP.

[DocGKR]

"Do you think the Lehigh/Underwood offerings are good options when complying with state/local FMJ requirements?"

You might want to listen to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLFEAtwNj0I

[Hideeho]

Good stuff. Thank you.

[Velo Dog]

Well it appears 3/8" AR500 steel is too much to ask of these rounds. Any other test media y'all want to see used? I'm thinking 1/8" steel will do better.

These 16 gauge electrical handy box covers are half the thickness of 1/8" steel.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Raco-4-in-Square-Blank-Cover-Flat-50-Pack-8752/202058391
2 or 3 should stop typical 9mm. They could be stacked up and easy secured to a block of wood.

[El Cid]

These 16 gauge electrical handy box covers are half the thickness of 1/8" steel.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Raco-4-in-Square-Blank-Cover-Flat-50-Pack-8752/202058391
2 or 3 should stop typical 9mm. They could be stacked up and easy secured to a block of wood.

Interesting - thanks! I need to channel my inner carpenter and build a box I can use to hold the steel and clay block. I've seen those before. You really think 2 or 3 would stop a 9mm?

[Velo Dog]

You really think 2 or 3 would stop a 9mm?

An electrical box within a simulated indoor wall stopped a 9mm on Mythbusters
http://www.screenfad.com/mythbusters/mythbusters-season-13-episode-11-recap-supernatural-shooters-41429

Evan Marshall's forum has also discussed the ability of two sheets of 16 gauge steel - spaced apart to simulate a car door -to stop common pistol rounds.

[El Cid]

GJM, thoughts? Found it while on their site for something else.

http://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/hunting/2016/09/backcountry-bear-defense-practice-drill-drop-charging-grizzly?dom=odl&loc=todayonodl&lnk=backcountry-bear-defense-a-practice-drill-to-drop-a-charging-grizzly

[JHC]

GJM, thoughts? Found it while on their site for something else.

http://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/hunting/2016/09/backcountry-bear-defense-practice-drill-drop-charging-grizzly?dom=odl&loc=todayonodl&lnk=backcountry-bear-defense-a-practice-drill-to-drop-a-charging-grizzly

DoW!!!! Mr. White!

[GJM]

GJM, thoughts? Found it while on their site for something else.

http://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/hunting/2016/09/backcountry-bear-defense-practice-drill-drop-charging-grizzly?dom=odl&loc=todayonodl&lnk=backcountry-bear-defense-a-practice-drill-to-drop-a-charging-grizzly

Concept, distances, and as aiming point seem reasonable. Wonder how much he practices it with his 329 and full power ammo? Ow!!

[Mr_White]

DoW!!!! Mr. White!

Cool, I like it, we'll do that sometime for sure.

[GJM]

A neat thing about this drill in real life, is the marksmanship challenge gets progressively easier.

My sequence if distance permitted, would be one warning shot, one body shot, and then the rest at the brain.

[El Cid]

A neat thing about this drill in real life, is the marksmanship challenge gets progressively easier.

My sequence if distance permitted, would be one warning shot, one body shot, and then the rest at the brain.

I'd be interested in running the drill with a shotgun full of slugs too.

As far as being easier in real life as it gets closer... That goes back to our discussion about filling our trousers while shooting. Perhaps have a shooting buddy squeeze warm pudding from a camelback into your pants as you shoot the drill? Haha!

[Digiroc]

I have just purchased a quantity of Corbon DPX in .40 S&W to run and carry in my .40 caliber Smiths. The solid copper hollow point round is 140 gr and produces a stated 1200 fps at the muzzle delivering 448 ft/lbs of energy on the target at combat range.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac7baKe_4K0

Another more detailed video about the Corbon DPX:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9V8eBAL74g

Here is a test of the Lehigh ammo and it does offer extreme penetration. Useful for Bears I suppose, but a bit much for two legged critters in my opinion.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYLbmSp5itA

The Corbon DPX fed well thorough my Shorty 40, at least the box of 20 I fired. Do any forum members have any experience with this ammo?

Digiroc

[JHC]

A couple of very expensive 20 round boxes ran well through my G42. That's all I know first hand.

[El Cid]

I have just purchased a quantity of Corbon DPX in .40 S&W to run and carry in my .40 caliber Smiths. The solid copper hollow point round is 140 gr and produces a stated 1200 fps at the muzzle delivering 448 ft/lbs of energy on the target at combat range.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac7baKe_4K0

Another more detailed video about the Corbon DPX:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9V8eBAL74g

Here is a test of the Lehigh ammo and it does offer extreme penetration. Useful for Bears I suppose, but a bit much for two legged critters in my opinion.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYLbmSp5itA

The Corbon DPX fed well thorough my Shorty 40, at least the box of 20 I fired. Do any forum members have any experience with this ammo?

Digiroc

I don't see any comparison between a hollow point round (even all copper) and what GJM and I are trying to vet. There are threads here that discuss the DPX loads I believe. Mr Haggard and others have stated Corbon is now using their own bullets which do not perform so well as the Barnes X bullets did.

I have some of the older Corbon DPX (with the Barnes bullet) that I always liked, but if I was looking for that particular load these days I'd go with the Black Hills version. I also have some of the 9mm Barnes TAC-XPD in their cool ninja black paint, but I know I can trust Black Hills QC.

Back on topic, I am working with a friend to build a small box that will hold the steel plates and block of clay. Once it's done I'll be able to test the various 10mm penetrating loads. So far I don't see anything outperforming the Lehigh/Underwood load, but depending on how the Fed Trophy Bonded JSP does, I may candy-cane the magazine when carrying the gun in the great outdoors.

[GJM]

How much of the Trophy Bonded have you run? I couldn't get through a single magazine without a stoppage in the G29. Seems like they changed something as the TB from a few years back functioned.

[El Cid]

How much of the Trophy Bonded have you run? I couldn't get through a single magazine without a stoppage in the G29. Seems like they changed something as the TB from a few years back functioned.

I'll have to look at my log when I get home. It's 2 or 3 boxes of 20. It's got more muzzle flip than the Underwood but the G40 slide is so heavy that 180gr FMJ feels like it's barely strong enough to cycle. I could see the JSP overspeeding the slide on a lighter pistol and causing issues.

[El Cid]

George, how about this for a target with that drill?

http://www.letargets.com/content/asp-bb-alaska-state-parks-bear-target.asp

[GJM]

George, how about this for a target with that drill?

http://www.letargets.com/content/asp-bb-alaska-state-parks-bear-target.asp

Maybe OK for a long gun, but I think not optimal for a handgun and the upper CNS. I wish I had a picture of the Gunsite target, which basically is the triangle of the eyes down to the nose of a grizzly.

[GJM]

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpsfxd6hy0o.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpsfxd6hy0o.jpeg.html)

[El Cid]

How much of the Trophy Bonded have you run? I couldn't get through a single magazine without a stoppage in the G29. Seems like they changed something as the TB from a few years back functioned.

Just looked at the tally. The gun has shot only 60 rounds of the Fed Trophy Bonded JSP, and 100 rounds of the Underwood Lehigh Extreme Penetrator. Total round count for the gun is 975.

I also snagged a +2 extension from Glockmeister during their Labor Day sale. Put one on a G21 mag (worked perfectly yesterday with 45 rounds), and the other is on a G40 mag. Filled it with ammo and am waiting a few weeks to test it.

http://i828.photobucket.com/albums/zz209/El_CidAF_ResQ/Mobile%20Uploads/FullSizeRender_zpsrxoppkb7.jpg

[GJM]

In two G29 pistols, we couldn't make through a single magazine with the new Trophy Bonded, so I suspect it is something about that load and the 29. When you look at the Lehigh penetrator bullet design, it is very FMJ in profile, which I am guessing helps function. I think the Lehigh in 9, .30, .45 and 10 may turn out to be the penetrating load we have always wanted in a service pistol, with a combination of reliable function and penetrate like crazy ability.

I have it in my memory, that the +2 was a problem in the 20/29, so I will be interested in your findings. Did you change the spring?

[El Cid]

In two G29 pistols, we couldn't make through a single magazine with the new Trophy Bonded, so I suspect it is something about that load and the 29. When you look at the Lehigh penetrator bullet design, it is very FMJ in profile, which I am guessing helps function. I think the Lehigh in 9, .30, .45 and 10 may turn out to be the penetrating load we have always wanted in a service pistol, with a combination of reliable function and penetrate like crazy ability.

I have it in my memory, that the +2 was a problem in the 20/29, so I will be interested in your findings. Did you change the spring?

I didn't change the spring on the +2 extension. The OEM spring worked with the G21, but I'll keep it filled for a bit to test it again later. Interestingly, the +2 plastic Glockmeister extension is almost the same OAL as the TTI +4 which I've used with great success. I try to email TTI once a month about that extension for the G20/40 line of guns. They said they are working on it. I tried the G21 +4 TTI on a G40 mag and it had issues beyond my non-engineer brains ability to remedy.

I think I've mentioned it before, but the hotter loads feel "normal" in the G40. The slide is so heavy that regular 180gr 10mm stuff often barely has the juice to cycle the slide.

I'm hoping to get some 1/8" steel and clay (as a backstop to catch the rounds) for some more testing soon.

ETA: Agreed about the Lehigh bullet in other calibers. If for some reason I was forced to carry a 9mm or 40S&W pistol into the woods, I'd be inclined to take a mag of the Extreme Penetrator loads with me.

[El Cid]

Oh, George - did you ever try the Arredondo extension? https://www.midwayusa.com/product/511319/arredondo-checkered-extended-magazine-base-pad-5-glock-20-21-nylon-black-and-10-pct-extra-power-spring

I've had good luck with their 9mm Glock extensions, and their Para-Ordnance 45 versions. But the G21 version constantly nose-dived the ammo so I got rid of it. Wondering if it would suck equally with the 10mm guns.

[GJM]

Oh, George - did you ever try the Arredondo extension? https://www.midwayusa.com/product/511319/arredondo-checkered-extended-magazine-base-pad-5-glock-20-21-nylon-black-and-10-pct-extra-power-spring

I've had good luck with their 9mm Glock extensions, and their Para-Ordnance 45 versions. But the G21 version constantly nose-dived the ammo so I got rid of it. Wondering if it would suck equally with the 10mm guns.

Nope. I have always assumed that slide velocity and magazine performance were very interrelated in terms of function, and I figured that the G20/29 ecosystem was already fragile enough without stressing it further.

[El Cid]

Put a couple hundred rounds through the gun a couple days ago. Mostly the slower 180gr stuff (picked up a large stash on clearance). Did shoot another 20rd box of the Underwood.

As for the Glockmeister +2... fired the first round and then nothing. Lol! The follower was stuck in the bottom of the mag and the remaining rounds were loose. I dumped them out to shoot in a regular mag. I guess until TTI makes an extension for the 10mm there are no viable options.

[GJM]

I have a package on the way from Underwood with .45+P, .45 Super and .40 S&W loads with the XTreme Penetrator bullet.

[El Cid]

I have a package on the way from Underwood with .45+P, .45 Super and .40 S&W loads with the XTreme Penetrator bullet.

Look forward to hearing how they do.

[LSP552]

I have a package on the way from Underwood with .45+P, .45 Super and .40 S&W loads with the XTreme Penetrator bullet.

Definitely interested in this, thanks!

[JHC]

I have a package on the way from Underwood with .45+P, .45 Super and .40 S&W loads with the XTreme Penetrator bullet.

Got an angle for any penetration testing? Like some steer heads from a slaughterhouse or something? ;)

[GJM]

My testing is going to be for reliability.

[El Cid]

Put another couple hundred of the 180gr FMJ, 20 of the Fed Trophy Bonded, and 40 of the Underwood EP through it today. The slide seemed to be getting more sluggish than normal (haven't cleaned the gun in quite some time). This was with the "regular" (neutered) 10mm stuff which always seemed to barely cycle the slide. I finally dropped in the NDZ 22lb RSA and the gun ran great! No more sluggish slide and it felt a touch softer with the full power loads. Gun cycles very smoothly and I'm wishing I'd made the change earlier.

Converted the +2 mag back to OEM configuration and it ran today without issue.

Getting closer to calling it good and buying HD orange sights (or possibly Ameriglos) for it. Just want to do some penetration testing first.

[5pins]

Bullets now available for the handloder.

https://www.midwayusa.com/s?targetLocation=%2F_%2FN-9015%2B4294939244%3FNp%3D2%26Nr%3DAND%2528p_visibl e%253A1%252Ccustomertypeid%253A1%2529%26Nrpp%3D24% 26Ns%3Dp_metric_sales_velocity%257C1%26Ntpc%3D1%26 Ntpr%3D1

[5pins]

Oops.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dapVWOqMNE

[JHC]

Good attitude. That counts for something.

[GJM]

My take away -- when shooting a Glock 10mm with heavy loads, make a first round hit to the brain.

[BehindBlueI's]

Oops.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dapVWOqMNE

That'll buff out.

[Doug MacRay]

So with a an overpressured round that was deep-seated, would the round be going faster, slower, or the same velocity as a normal round? A lot of wasted energy probably went into this poor bloke's hand. I demand a retest! :)

[SLG]

Well, thank god this guy has set us all straight. It's good to know that the new to market CZ is better than the G19. Someone tell the military, quick!

[SLG]

So with a an overpressured round that was deep-seated, would the round be going faster, slower, or the same velocity as a normal round? A lot of wasted energy probably went into this poor bloke's hand. I demand a retest! :)

It should be faster, but I'm not expert on this stuff. Probably not much faster, I imagine.

[El Cid]

I put another 150 of the Federal classic 10mm (think 40 power levels) through the G40 this weekend. Also, 20 rounds of Federal Trophy Bonded 180gr JSP, and 20 more Underwood EP 140gr. The gun ran them all with ease as usual. I'm at 2181 for total rounds through the gun. I'm 100% confident in it from a reliability perspective. The only thing left is to shoot the bullets through a proper medium. My buddies and I are still working on getting a junk car or a windshield. We'll put clay and water behind it or something to get an idea of penetration depth.

As a dedicated woods gun though I'm quite pleased with it.

[GJM]

I have converted to the Underwood Extreme Penetrator load for all semi-auto field use, and have a supply of this ammo in 9, .40, 45 +P and .45 Super. Running the +P in the HK45C and the Super in the USP FS.

[5pins]

What do you think would make a good bone simulant? I have some .45 200gr Lehigh XP's coming in and I'm going to test them in some clear gel to see what kind of penetration I can get. I would like to try both bare gel and some gel with some kind of "bone" placed in front. I would like to find something cheap and easy to find locally, maybe Petco or Walmart.

[JHC]

What do you think would make a good bone simulant? I have some .45 200gr Lehigh XP's coming in and I'm going to test them in some clear gel to see what kind of penetration I can get. I would like to try both bare gel and some gel with some kind of "bone" placed in front. I would like to find something cheap and easy to find locally, maybe Petco or Walmart.

Petco/Petsmart sell a range of different sized beef bones for dogs to chew. Some are pretty massive. Propping things up for a solid hit might take some fiddling.

[Chuck Haggard]

Petco/Petsmart sell a range of different sized beef bones for dogs to chew. Some are pretty massive. Propping things up for a solid hit might take some fiddling.

Cooked bone is substantially different than live bone. I'd look to a place like a butcher shop or meat processing place for something like a cow femur.

[DocGKR]

In general, projectiles that do well against laminated vehicle windshields also typically work well against bone...

[GJM]

I am still chuckling at something Doc said to me last fall.

I told him that I had shot some 2x4 and 4x4 wood pieces lined up, with the Lehigh bullets, and the bullets penetrated impressively. When I asked him what he thought, knowing I was interested in bear skulls, he told me I could conclude they penetrate 2x4 and 4x4 well. :)

[Sherman A. House DDS]

I think in all fields of science (and medicine), "test mediums," are just that...for testing. Whether you're talking skulls or gelatin, anything other than a living, breathing, hairy-assed bear (or a goblin) isn't going to replicate the performance of the projectile on a living being. And even then, the variables that involve the living aren't scientifically replicable (ethically) since nobody/no creature is going to willingly let you Brain them with a bullet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[gringop]

I was able to get out to the range today with my G20 and the Chrono. Here is what I got from Underwood 10mm Xtreme Penitrator 140gr and my first test batch of reloads using the same bullet.

10mm Underwood Extreme Penetrator 140gr Lehigh
avg 1469
high 1507
low 1432
extreme spread 75
S D 30

10mm Extreme Penetrator 140gr Lehigh, 10.0 gr Blue Dot, Starline, Win Large Pistol.
avg 1144
high 1169
low 1102
extreme spread 67
S D 25

Both loads had less felt recoil than my normal 180gr FMJ 1116fps practice load but the Underwood had more flash and concussion.

I'm gonna try to bump up the test reloads to 10.5, 11.0 and 11.5 of Blue dot to try to get a little more velocity. I don't need 1470 fps but I would like to get a bit more for some hunting reloads. I may have to build up a GJM style stack-o-lumber for penn tests.

Gringop

[GJM]

Another possibility is to buy a few boxes of Underwood for carry, and not worry too much about your reloads, as I bet the Lehigh bullets are spendy even when you load them.

[gringop]

But, But, But...Not reload for all things! What heresy is this?

20859

Gotta get rid of all that old Blue Dot somehow.

Gringop

[BBMW]

While these rounds my function well in terms of reliability, accuracy, and penetration, the question I haven't seen answered is, do they have any advantage in incapacitating a human attacker over the equivalent FMJ round? Would anyone use a Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator, or equivalent from another manufacturer, in a gun chambered for any of the normal duty calibers, over a top tier JHP design for a carry or home defense weapon?

I saw that Doc Roberts has been poking into this thread recently. I'd love to get his opinion on this

[GJM]

While these rounds my function well in terms of reliability, accuracy, and penetration, the question I haven't seen answered is, do they have any advantage in incapacitating a human attacker over the equivalent FMJ round? Would anyone use a Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator, or equivalent from another manufacturer, in a gun chambered for any of the normal duty calibers, over a top tier JHP design for a carry or home defense weapon?

I saw that Doc Roberts has been poking into this thread recently. I'd love to get his opinion on this

Why would you want to use either an FMJ or Lehigh, when so many good JHP options are out there? By chance, I picked up my elk skull mount earlier today, shot last year, and the taxidermist had saved the Lehigh bullet I used out of an HK45C in the form of Underwood’s .45 Super load as a finishing shot to the brain.

21147

[JHC]

Why would you want to use either an FMJ or Lehigh, when so many good JHP options are out there? By chance, I picked up my elk skull mount earlier today, shot last year, and the taxidermist had saved the Lehigh bullet I used out of an HK45C in the form of Underwood’s .45 Super load as a finishing shot to the brain.

21147

Where and what angle did you shoot that skull and how far did it penetrate?

[Lester Polfus]

Why would you want to use either an FMJ or Lehigh, when so many good JHP options are out there? By chance, I picked up my elk skull mount earlier today, shot last year, and the taxidermist had saved the Lehigh bullet I used out of an HK45C in the form of Underwood’s .45 Super load as a finishing shot to the brain.

21147

Looks like you could reload that, and send it down the barrel again. Considering how expensive the damn things are, that's not a bad idea.

[GJM]

Where and what angle did you shoot that skull and how far did it penetrate?

It has been a year, but my recollection is from the side or rear, and since I didn’t recover the bullet the taxidermist did, I would be guessing to say more.

[JHC]

It has been a year, but my recollection is from the side or rear, and since I didn’t recover the bullet the taxidermist did, I would be guessing to say more.
Thanks. Side or rear and it didn't exit into the yonder.

That doesn't strike me as robust penetration.

[JodyH]

do they have any advantage in incapacitating a human attacker over the equivalent FMJ round?
Humans aren't really the intended targets for these rounds.
A traditional FMJ would be more likely to deform (flatten out and yaw) than the Lehigh which would probably increase the damage potential on a relatively thin skinned, smaller boned, lightly muscled human.
The Lehigh penetrators are more for punching a hole through much denser, harder targets like bears, hogs and large game and maybe thick sheetmetal or glass.
Through those harder mediums the solid copper bullet wouldn't have any issues with shedding the jacket, losing weight or deforming all of which lessen penetration.
The only advantage I can see the Lehigh having over a round nose FMJ is the flatter TMJ style nose.

[BBMW]

I'm really not. It came up in conversation elsewhere, and wanted to see if I'm missing something about these rounds. I was looking to see if anyone definitively validated or disproved the concept behind them. I personally consider them no better than FMJ until I see definitive proof otherwise


Why would you want to use either an FMJ or Lehigh, when so many good JHP options are out there? By chance, I picked up my elk skull mount earlier today, shot last year, and the taxidermist had saved the Lehigh bullet I used out of an HK45C in the form of Underwood’s .45 Super load as a finishing shot to the brain.


Given the loadings they offering (.380, 9mmx19, .45 ACP), I don't see these as hunting rounds. The conversations I've been having are about these as self defense (against humans) rounds.


Humans aren't really the intended targets for these rounds.
A traditional FMJ would be more likely to deform (flatten out and yaw) than the Lehigh which would probably increase the damage potential on a relatively thin skinned, smaller boned, lightly muscled human.
The Lehigh penetrators are more for punching a hole through much denser, harder targets like bears, hogs and large game and maybe thick sheetmetal or glass.
Through those harder mediums the solid copper bullet wouldn't have any issues with shedding the jacket, losing weight or deforming all of which lessen penetration.
The only advantage I can see the Lehigh having over a round nose FMJ is the flatter TMJ style nose.

[JodyH]

Given the loadings they offering (.380, 9mmx19, .45 ACP), I don't see these as hunting rounds. The conversations I've been having are about these as self defense (against humans) rounds.
They aren't hunting rounds.

They aren't good self defense rounds against people (the only exception would be the Lehigh .380 where JHP's don't penetrate much and also suffer from little to no expansion and most FMJ's are pretty anemic and without flash suppressed powder).
In .380 they're probably one of the better options in that caliber for self-defense against people.

In 9, 40 and 45 they are a viable alternative to 357 magnum revolvers for self defense against tough critters like pit bulls, black bears and feral hogs or as the "anchor shot" on elk, deer, etc.. The solid copper construction is superior to jacketed bullets for consistent deep penetration and weight retention.
The Lehigh bullet nose profile is also less prone to deflection when shooting at angled barriers (like the shoulder blade of a bear or the forehead of a pit bull) than a rounded nose FMJ.

The Lehigh Penetrators let you expand the capabilities of your normal carry gun into the field.

When out and about in bear country I have Underwood Penetrators in my P30L .40.
Once I get back to civilization I load it back up with HST JHPs.
Are the Penetrators as good as having a 6" .357 magnum revolver with hot 200gr. hard cast LSWC?
Probably not.
But I shoot the P30 considerably better and have twice as much ammo at the ready.

[Frank R]

You guys should check out youtube regarding this ammo. Underwood has the Penetrator and the Defender.The tests on both are impressive.

[BBMW]

In what way? They show overpenetration (a la FMJ). They show some off track disruption of the gelatin. But that's the problem. Will that disruption of the gel translate to imcapacitating effect in a defensive shooting. Everything that came out of the wound ballistics studies that underlies the current standards says it shouldn't. With pistol velocity round stretch cavity, which is what these rounds try and generate, is useless. It's only tissue directly disrupted by bullet content (ie crush cavity) that counts.


You guys should check out youtube regarding this ammo. Underwood has the Penetrator and the Defender.The tests on both are impressive.

[PNWTO]

In what way? They show overpenetration (a la FMJ). They show some off track disruption of the gelatin. But that's the problem. Will that disruption of the gel translate to imcapacitating effect in a defensive shooting. Everything that came out of the wound ballistics studies that underlies the current standards says it shouldn't. With pistol velocity round stretch cavity, which is what these rounds try and generate, is useless. It's only tissue directly disrupted by bullet content (ie crush cavity) that counts.

FMJ bullets typically have poor construction, while the Lehigh bullets are designed to max out penetration and be tough as hell. I think it is unwise to hold these to the same performance standard as SD rounds designed for humans, since they aren't, or at least shouldn't be, and that isn't the point in application .

Edit: obviously, IMO, the .380 Lehigh should be in a class of its own.

[JodyH]

I think the Lehigh "Defender" line is all gimmick.
The "Penetrator" line on the other hand is a game changer when it comes to tough critter defense.

[JHC]

Because they tend to be light for their caliber, I'd like to see a lot more Lehigh results on large game that included bones being struck. GJM shot an elk in the head from the rear or the side and the taxidermist found the Lehigh slug; in the head.

[Jeep]

Because they tend to be light for their caliber, I'd like to see a lot more Lehigh results on large game that included bones being struck. GJM shot an elk in the head from the rear or the side and the taxidermist found the Lehigh slug; in the head.

It strikes me that a hard-cast bullet can do almost everything claimed for the Lehigh, but with years of experience standing behind it. Hard cast wadcutters and semi-wadcutters will punch a hole--and will cost a lot less too. In "no lead bullets" areas, perhaps the Lehigh is the way to go.

[JodyH]

It strikes me that a hard-cast bullet can do almost everything claimed for the Lehigh, but with years of experience standing behind it. Hard cast wadcutters and semi-wadcutters will punch a hole--and will cost a lot less too. In "no lead bullets" areas, perhaps the Lehigh is the way to go.
Terminal ballistics wise hardcast lead does do everything the Lehigh does.
What hardcast lead doesn't do is feed as well through a pistol.
Lead wadcutters are a complete no go in everything except tuned target pistols and lead semi-wadcutters tend to bite into the feed ramp causing stoppages.
Lead round nose usually feed fairly well but lack any flat, sharp crush/cut/bite surfaces which increases the likely hood of a deflection off angled surfaces.
A semi-jacketed or fully jacketed truncated cone bullet feeds well and works but they also tend to shed their jackets (with the result being lost weight and deformation).

[Jeep]

Terminal ballistics wise hardcast lead does do everything the Lehigh does.
What hardcast lead doesn't do is feed as well through a pistol.
Lead wadcutters are a complete no go in everything except tuned target pistols and lead semi-wadcutters tend to bite into the feed ramp causing stoppages.
Lead round nose usually feed fairly well but lack any flat, sharp crush/cut/bite surfaces which increases the likely hood of a deflection off angled surfaces.
A semi-jacketed or fully jacketed truncated cone bullet feeds well and works but they also tend to shed their jackets (with the result being lost weight and deformation).

Very true. But they feed well in revolvers and many rifles. In addition, my memory is that, Buffalo Bore had/has a decently feeding 9mm hardcast, but my memory on that might be wrong.

[JodyH]

Very true. But they feed well in revolvers and many rifles. In addition, my memory is that, Buffalo Bore had/has a decently feeding 9mm hardcast, but my memory on that might be wrong.
To quote myself:


Are the Penetrators as good as having a 6" .357 magnum revolver with hot 200gr. hard cast LSWC?
Probably not.
But I shoot the P30 considerably better and have twice as much ammo at the ready.

[Jeep]

Keep in mind, though, you always get style points if you use a Model 28 when taking down an attacking critter.

[Frank R]

In what way? They show overpenetration (a la FMJ). They show some off track disruption of the gelatin. But that's the problem. Will that disruption of the gel translate to imcapacitating effect in a defensive shooting. Everything that came out of the wound ballistics studies that underlies the current standards says it shouldn't. With pistol velocity round stretch cavity, which is what these rounds try and generate, is useless. It's only tissue directly disrupted by bullet content (ie crush cavity) that counts.

Don't know why you're having such a hard time with this.

The Penetrator is used for penetrating thicker-skinned animals such as bear and boar. It's a hunting round that also gives some expansion.

The Defender is a self defense round that penetrates and expands more than most self defense rounds such as Federal HST.

There are several Youtube examples of both.

[BehindBlueI's]

Don't know why you're having such a hard time with this.

The Penetrator is used for penetrating thicker-skinned animals such as bear and boar. It's a hunting round that also gives some expansion.

The Defender is a self defense round that penetrates and expands more than most self defense rounds such as Federal HST.

There are several Youtube examples of both.

Neither bullet expands, period. Temporary stretch cavity =/= wounding at pistol velocities outside of a few organs, such as the liver.

[JodyH]

Neither bullet expands, period. Temporary stretch cavity =/= wounding at pistol velocities outside of a few organs, such as the liver.
Three different LeHigh bullets:
There's the "Penetrator" which is a solid copper fluted FMJ designed for penetration.
There's the "Defender" which is a lightweight/high velocity solid copper fluted FMJ designed for magical fluid displacement stretch cavity bullshit.
There's the "Maximum Expansion" bullet which is a solid copper hollowpoint with a really deep cavity and cuts that make four large petals upon expansion.
Only one of these three is worth buying IMO.
The "Penetrator" just applies solid copper construction to a tried and true truncated cone bullet profile, good idea.
The other two are snake oil marketing IMO.

[5pins]

Even the penetrator line is a little gimmicky with the "progressive nose geometry allows for deep, straight penetration while creating a permanent wound cavity diameter exceeding that of most expanding bullets." The penetrator bullet would probably do even better without the flutes.


The only other bullet Lehigh make worth any merit is their .300 BO max expansion.

[Malamute]

Thanks. Side or rear and it didn't exit into the yonder.

That doesn't strike me as robust penetration.

I wonder if the head was up? I shot a small buck mule deer in the head for a finishing shot with a 45-70 factory 400 gr jsp load, it penetrated about 6 or 8 inches. I was surprised thats all the farther it penetrated. I surmised that the head being up and moved with the impact may have affected the penetration.

[JodyH]

The one thing that's consistent when it comes to shooting real live critters is how inconsistently bullets perform.

[GJM]

I wonder if the head was up? I shot a small buck mule deer in the head for a finishing shot with a 45-70 factory 400 gr jsp load, it penetrated about 6 or 8 inches. I was surprised thats all the farther it penetrated. I surmised that the head being up and moved with the impact may have affected the penetration.

I got the bullet when I picked up the euro mount of the elk, and since it was a year since I fired that bullet, I am foggy enough as to the details that I would conclude nothing other than the bullet did not deform.

[Malamute]

My question was if the elks head was up when you shot it, or solidly on the ground? I wonder if the head being up could absorb some of the bullet momentum, such as trying to stab a free hanging object compared to one that was supported and didnt move.

[GJM]

My question was if the elks head was up when you shot it, or solidly on the ground? I wonder if the head being up could absorb some of the bullet momentum, such as trying to stab a free hanging object compared to one that was supported and didnt move.

I just don’t recall.

[Lester Polfus]

My question was if the elks head was up when you shot it, or solidly on the ground? I wonder if the head being up could absorb some of the bullet momentum, such as trying to stab a free hanging object compared to one that was supported and didnt move.

I had a 124 grain Gold Dot not exit a doe's skull. It went in her right ear and didn't exit. I was laying on my right side shooting through a very narrow lane in the alders and distinctly remember that her head was up and it jerked pretty violently to the side at the shot. I think in my case your theory may explain exactly why it didn't penetrate out the skull. The skull was fractured into several pieces, just held together by skin.

[JHC]

My experience is limited to one deer finished off with a 300 grain XTP from a 4" Model 629. Deer's head on the ground. Side to side shot. Drilled a .429 hole going in and a .430 hole going out the other side. And another one shot through the top of it's head with a .45, a 230 grain Ranger standard pressure. I recovered it down in it's neck. Classically expanded.

I get that an elk's head, a nice bull in this case, is pretty massive in its own right.

[richiecotite]

Because they tend to be light for their caliber, I'd like to see a lot more Lehigh results on large game that included bones being struck. GJM shot an elk in the head from the rear or the side and the taxidermist found the Lehigh slug; in the head.

I’m not familiar with elk physiology, but the side and back are still pretty dang hard compared to the front or no?

If so, then it seems like the bullet would probably work for GJM; I know he’s mentioned reliable penetration of a bear skull. This one penetrated an elk skull.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[WDR]

Elk are basically a big deer. Larger, maybe a bit thicker skulls, but not as heavy bone wise, as a bear skull. But I've never shot a bear, and only seen their skulls in displays, so I'd defer to GJM on that matter. I'll be honest and say that I'm surprised that .45 bullet didn't penetrate more, and just keep going. But I think it just proves the saying that rifles tear shit up, and handguns poke holes in things.

"The one thing that's consistent when it comes to shooting real live critters is how inconsistently bullets perform. " -- There is much truth in this statement.

I've seen a mule deer shot with a 250gr Nosler Partition Gold bullet from a .338WM run 1/4 mile or more down a canyon. Following it up we found a large pile of organs and intestines where the deer turned around some brush, and they apparently spilled out... the 6-8" hole in the off side. It was a quartering-to shot that was a bit far back, and IIRC, only got one lung. How it ever made it that far, I have no idea. That deer just didn't want to die. My buddy found a lucky rabbits foot within a couple feet of where his deer finally fell. I think he still has it. :D

On the other hand I've had some deer and antelope that took a 62gr Gold Dot to the boiler room that acted like they were hit with a far larger caliber. Dead within feet of where I shot them.

[PNWTO]

Necrobump to see if anyone has experience with the 9mm stuff; I assume reliability is boringly positive given the design but figured I'd put it out there for the good of the order.

I've considered buying a G23 as a lower 48 "field gun" to complement all my G19 shit but I really have no use for another field gun (or the 23) as my .45 LC Blackhawk is too much fun and I don't plan on any AK trips yet.




"The one thing that's consistent when it comes to shooting real live critters is how inconsistently bullets perform. " -- There is much truth in this statement.


Major factor. I have seen a broadhead all but amputate a blacktail's offside leg after going through lungs and the front shoulder and the deer still attempted to feed for about three seconds, nature doesn't give a shit.

[GJM]

Necrobump to see if anyone has experience with the 9mm stuff; I assume reliability is boringly positive given the design but figured I'd put it out there for the good of the order.

I've considered buying a G23 as a lower 48 "field gun" to complement all my G19 shit but I really have no use for another field gun (or the 23) as my .45 LC Blackhawk is too much fun and I don't plan on any AK trips yet.



Major factor. I have seen a broadhead all but amputate a blacktail's offside leg after going through lungs and the front shoulder and the deer still attempted to feed for about three seconds, nature doesn't give a shit.

The Underwood Lehigh has been reliable in multiple different 9mm pistols, and reliable in every pistol of every caliber I have tried it in.

[ST911]

Necrobump to see if anyone has experience with the 9mm stuff; I assume reliability is boringly positive given the design but figured I'd put it out there for the good of the order.

BHA's loading, various Glocks with OEM and some KKM barrels. All GTG. http://www.black-hills.com/shop/new-pistol-ammo/9mm-luger/

[JodyH]

I've started to carry the Black-Hills 125gr. Lehigh in my Kahr PM9 (and the Underwood 90gr. load in my CW380).
Not because I believe in the VooDoo of hydraulic displacement being a real wounding factor, but because I do believe in straight line penetration over expansion for certain situations.
The PM9/CW380 are my pocket carry for around the house, yard, neighborhood.
The highest probability for its use by far would be to shoot a dog that's trying to get to me or the dog i'm walking.
From my research the Lehigh design penetrates and resists deflection better than pretty much anything else.
When the switch flips to people being the primary threat it's back to Black-Hills Tac-XP+P in the VP9SK (often with a pocket carried Kahr BUG).

[rangerover]

This is pretty much what I have settled on as well. We can never predict the future but if out hiking, in deeper woods I have my G19 stoked with underwood 115g +p+ with a mag of 147g HST for when I’m back nearer civilization.

[GJM]

BHA's loading, various Glocks with OEM and some KKM barrels. All GTG. http://www.black-hills.com/shop/new-pistol-ammo/9mm-luger/


I've started to carry the Black-Hills 125gr. Lehigh in my Kahr PM9 (and the Underwood 90gr. load in my CW380).
Not because I believe in the VooDoo of hydraulic displacement being a real wounding factor, but because I do believe in straight line penetration over expansion for certain situations.
The PM9/CW380 are my pocket carry for around the house, yard, neighborhood.
The highest probability for its use by far would be to shoot a dog that's trying to get to me or the dog i'm walking.
From my research the Lehigh design penetrates and resists deflection better than pretty much anything else.
When the switch flips to people being the primary threat it's back to Black-Hills Tac-XP+P in the VP9SK (often with a pocket carried Kahr BUG).

Is the 125 BH Honey Badger load the Lehigh xtreme penetrator bullet?

[JodyH]

Is the 125 BH Honey Badger load the Lehigh xtreme penetrator bullet?
No, it appears to be a heavier version of the defense load, almost a heavy hybrid defense/penetrator.
It has sharper, deeper nose flutes than the penetrators but more weight than any of the Underwood offerings.

[GJM]

No, it appears to be a heavier version of the defense load, almost a heavy hybrid defense/penetrator.
It has sharper, deeper nose flutes than the penetrators but more weight than any of the Underwood offerings.

Thanks. Seems to have less velocity than the pure penetrator loads.

[JodyH]

Thanks. Seems to have less velocity than the pure penetrator loads.
If I get the chance tomorrow I'll chrono both out of a P30 and out of my PM9.

[5pins]

GJM was kind enough to send me some Lehigh Penetrators loaded by Underwood for me to try out in some Clear Gel. In my post on the Double Tap’s deepest penetrator, I came up with what I hoped would be a substitute for testing through bone.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?31075-Double-Tap%92s-deepest-penetrator-10mm-45&p=738997&viewfull=1#post738997

The Idea is to use 20ga sheet metal angled at 30 degrees to simulate bone or skull bone and see if there is any effect on penetration of deflection of the bullet's path. The sheet metal was placed in front of three 16 inch blocks of Clear Ballistics Gel.

https://i.imgur.com/lr0hmrPl.jpg?1

Starting off with the .45 Super, I shot four rounds through an HK 45C with a 4-inch barrel. The first round shot through bare gel had a velocity of 1111fps and penetrated to 23.5 inches. The second round was shot just below the first through the angled sheet metal and hit at a velocity of 1087fps and penetrated to 18.75 inches. The third round was shot in the upper right of the gel blocks and penetrated to 23.75 inches with a velocity of 1094fps. The last round was shot through the sheet metal just below the third and it had a velocity of 1105fps and penetrated to 20.75 inches.

https://i.imgur.com/vE1KcXFl.jpg

None of the bullets shot through the sheet metal showed any directional deviation from the impact. The four rounds had an average velocity of 1099fps. This velocity is about 100fps less then what Underwood’s claiming of 1100fps and about 100fps more than my handload of this bullet I tested previously. However, even with the increased velocity the penetration only increased by three-quarters of an inch from 23 to 23.75 inches. This load is also a little on the flashy side.

This bullet, at least in .45 caliber, still seems to suffer from lack of penetration depth even with the increased velocity. The sheet metal only slightly retarded penetration depth by about three or four inches.

GJM also sent me some to try in 9mm, 10mm, and .45ACP +P. I’m going to try it in 9mm next, then probably 10mm and .45 +P last.

[GJM]

Thanks much for doing this. Do you have a theory for why you think the bullet getting less penetration than you expected? Look forward to how the other calibers do — secretly rooting for the 9mm to do best.

[5pins]

Thanks much for doing this. Do you have a theory for why you think the bullet getting less penetration than you expected? Look forward to how the other calibers do — secretly rooting for the 9mm to do best.


In my completely unscientific WAG, the fluting is either increasing drag because of the more surface area or it’s directing the media into the flutes. Think of two boats traveling through the water next to each other. As the bow pushes through the water the wakes of the two boats interfere with each other pushing on the opposite boat slowing it down and trying to separate them.
I have no way of knowing if I’m right or not but it clear that the fluting is doing something.

[DocGKR]

Laminated automobile windshield is a better bone simulator than sheet steel.

Projectile flutes = increased surface area with greater drag decreasing penetration depth; also fluted bullets typically have less mass than a similar sized non-fluted bullet which also decreases penetration depth.

[DocGKR]

This idea of a solid projectile with flat point and flutes has been around for a long time. We tested a .45 Auto 185 gr +P solid w/flat point and flutes for NSW back in the late 1980's or so.

Despite media and vendor hype to the contrary, these solid fluted bullets just punch a hole in tissue like any FMJ--there is no mystical hydraulic energy, magical pressure spikes, absurdly enlarged wound cavity, etc...

Nonetheless, this design can be a good projectile and offer decent terminal performance.

[1slow]

Why not a truncated point solid without flutes.

[paul105]

Here’s some additional info that might be of interest (may have posted before, but too hot/lazy to search -- sorry if redundant).

Worked up some 200gr loads for use in the .45 ACP (Kahr CW45 pocket gun). Used the Lehigh and Cutting Edge and worked up to 1,000 fps. The Lehigh takes about half a grain less Ramshot Silhouette to reach 1,000 fps vs the Cutting Edge. Underwood +P 45 ACP 200gr Lehigh ammo chronos right at 1,000 fps from my Kahr CW45. No functioning problems with either Lehigh Underwood or my Cutting Edge handloads in the CW45

Link to Cutting Edge

https://cuttingedgebullets.com/shop/cutting-edge-bullets/handgun-bullets

Link to Lehigh

https://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/bullets/handgun+xtreme-penetrator

Picture of 200gr Cutting Edge loaded in .45 ACP

https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/large/Cutting%20Edge%20200gr%20WFN%20IMG_0866.jpg

Here’s a link to some penetration comparisons (don’t know how scientific but advantage Cutting Edge)

http://www.general-cartridge.com/blog/cutting-edge-10mm-and-45-hg-solid-bullets

Here's a picture of the Lehigh Ext Penet, and the Cutting Edge 200gr .45 ACP at 1,000 fps after impacting the base of steel popper. Shot from a slight angle to prevent bullet coming back at me and at the base so the popper wouldn't move at all.

https://photos.imageevent.com/paul105/hobby/large/IMG_0838.JPG

The bottom bullet is the Lehigh which was shot at a bit more of an angle. Not suggesting these will "mushroom" in soft tissue or on bone, but they won't come apart and most likely won't deform at all.

FWIW,

Paul

[5pins]

The cutting edge bullets penetrate much better than the Lehigh’s but as far as I know, there are no factory loadings using them. So, unless you handload it’s not an option.

[5pins]

https://i.imgur.com/OHtIRoOl.jpg?1

I finally had a chance to try the 9mm 115gr Lehigh XP today. Just like the .45 Super, I shot two rounds in bare gel and two through 12 gage sheet metal. The pistol I used was a Sig P229 with a 4.1-inch barrel.

The first round in the bare gel had a velocity of 1210fps and penetrated 47 inches of gel before coming out the side of the third block and landing on the floor. The second round, fired through the sheet metal, had a velocity of 1190fps and penetrated 16.5 inches. Round number three shot into the bare gel hit at 1192fps and penetrated to 47.5 inches. Something interesting about this round, the bullet showed signs of tumbling, in the gel, at the 35-inch mark. The last round went through the sheet metal at a velocity of 1191fps and penetrated to 18 inches.

When compared the 9mm to the .45 Super? The 9mm out penetrated the .45 by quite a bit in bare gel, 47.5 to 23.75. That’s almost twice as much. On the other hand, when through the sheet metal the 9mm lost a lot of its penetration. From a max of 47.5 to 18 inches, a loss of 29.5 inches. The .45 Super outperformed the 9mm but by only 2.75 inches when comparing the max penetration through sheet metal.

[Velo Dog]

https://i.imgur.com/OHtIRoOl.jpg?1

I finally had a chance to try the 9mm 115gr Lehigh XP today. Just like the .45 Super, I shot two rounds in bare gel and two through 12 gage sheet metal.

Did you use a single piece of 12 gauge sheet metal in the 9mm test and a single piece of 20 gauge sheet metal in the 45 Super test? If that is not a typo, 12 gauge is almost 3 times thicker than 20 gauge.

[5pins]

Did you use a single piece of 12 gauge sheet metal in the 9mm test and a single piece of 20 gauge sheet metal in the 45 Super test? If that is not a typo, 12 gauge is almost 3 times thicker than 20 gauge.

That's a typo, 20ga was used in all of them. Thanks for catching that.

[GJM]

So, the obvious question is whether an informed person would choose a 9mm or .45 Super, using these projectiles, to defend themselves against a bear by being able to successfully penetrate the skull and hit the brain?

[Doc_Glock]

So, the obvious question is whether an informed person would choose a 9mm or .45 Super, using these projectiles, to defend themselves against a bear by being able to successfully penetrate the skull and hit the brain?

I would. But I doubt I will ever see a wild bear. And don’t consider myself informed beyond the numbers.

But, it seems, from the numbers, 9mm ball rounds should do just fine against bear skulls. How hard is it to find a freshly dead bear and just test it?

[GJM]

I would. But I doubt I will ever see a wild bear. And don’t consider myself informed beyond the numbers.

But, it seems, from the numbers, 9mm ball rounds should do just fine against bear skulls. How hard is it to find a freshly dead bear and just test it?

I would probably take your mallet over most 9mm ball rounds on a brown bear skull.

[Salamander]

"The average skull size of Kodiak bears killed by hunters in the first five years of the 21st century was 63.8cm for boars and 55.4cm for sows." (Alaska Dept of Fish & Game report)

That converts to 25.1 and 21.8 inches and is tip of snout to back of skull. Published lengths of brown bear skulls from the Caucasus region of Russia are slightly less, up to 17.9 inches.

[Clusterfrack]

So, the obvious question is whether an informed person would choose a 9mm or .45 Super, using these projectiles, to defend themselves against a bear by being able to successfully penetrate the skull and hit the brain?

This is really a tough question. Emotionally, when I think about having to defend myself and family or friends against the largest land predator, I am drawn to a heavy caliber. But, if these data are valid in the real world, I would rather have 16-19 rounds of 9mm XP in a gun I know I can make good hits at 25 yds, with splits under 0.5s.

[JHC]

I would. But I doubt I will ever see a wild bear. And don’t consider myself informed beyond the numbers.

But, it seems, from the numbers, 9mm ball rounds should do just fine against bear skulls. How hard is it to find a freshly dead bear and just test it?

It's been done before. On Kodiak a fishing party got jumped near shore, must be what, 10 or 15 years back?. I'm sure many will recall this one for the humor factor that the guy assigned to carry the shotgun threw it and dove into the surf. Another guy started firing his Ruger 9mm and hit it in the shoulder. It must have been double lucky to not just hit the bone right but as that shoulder was bearing most of its weight because it went down and the pistolero shot it in its head to kill it.

It got a lot of coverage at the time and I saw it stated he was loaded with 115 grain FMJ.

[5pins]

It's been done before. On Kodiak a fishing party got jumped near shore, must be what, 10 or 15 years back?. I'm sure many will recall this one for the humor factor that the guy assigned to carry the shotgun threw it and dove into the surf. Another guy started firing his Ruger 9mm and hit it in the shoulder. It must have been double lucky to not just hit the bone right but as that shoulder was bearing most of its weight because it went down and the pistolero shot it in its head to kill it.

It got a lot of coverage at the time and I saw it stated he was loaded with 115 grain FMJ.

I remember that one. It was the first time I heard of someone shooting a bear with a 9mm.


Fisherman shoots, kills grizzly

BEAR! BEAR! Man plugs lunging bruin with 9 mm pistol on Russian River.


By Zaz Hollander
Anchorage Daily News

(Published: August 18, 2002)
A fisherman shot and killed a sow grizzly as she charged him in the early morning darkness Saturday on the banks of the Russian River.

The bear surprised Garen Brenner and two friends about 2:30 a.m. as they packed up their gear at one of the Kenai Peninsula's most popular fishing spots, said Larry Lewis, an Alaska Department of Fish and Game wildlife technician on the peninsula.

Brenner heard his friend yell "Bear! Bear!" and looked downriver to see the sow a few yards down the bank eyeing the friend. The bear lost interest in Brenner's friend after he backed into the water and threw his shotgun at her.

But then she turned, looked up at Brenner and lunged, said Lewis, who interviewed the three men Saturday.

Brenner fired at the center of the hulking shape closing to four or five feet away. He fired

twice. The sow, estimated at 400 to 450 pounds, went down. Then Brenner fired three more shots into her head.

He shot the bear with a 9 mm semiautomatic pistol. Lewis said such a low-caliber gun ordinarily doesn't pack enough punch to kill a bear. But Brenner loaded the pistol with full-metal-jacket bullets that penetrated to the bear's vital organs, he said.

"I think that's what saved his bacon," Lewis said.

The bear most likely was protecting her yearling cub, which waited well behind her above the steep bank, wildlife officials said.

After the shooting, the cub ran up and down the bank near its mother's body, bawling in distress. "It would stop and smell the bear, the sow, and then it would go into the water a ways, then it would come back," said Bill Shuster, a wildlife biologist with the U.S. Forest Service.

Local fishing guide Brandon Maes ran into the cub as he fished the Upper Kenai River near its confluence with the Russian. The cub charged, and Maes waded across the swift, chest-deep river to an island. The bear backed off but not before charging the guide's buddies in a boat nearby.

Soon after, Lewis tranquilized the cub, tagged and collared her and moved her to the south side of Skilak Lake.

The encounter was the latest of several close calls between people and bears along Southcentral rivers and streams. The Russian is thick with spawned-out sockeye that draw bears.

Authorities are looking into whether the dead bear is the same sow that attacked a Soldotna mother and son hiking Resurrection Pass Trail on Friday afternoon about three miles from Cooper Landing.

That bear, also accompanied by a cub, raked the mother's face with her claws and bit the son.

Nonetheless, people going into Gwin's store expressed dismay Saturday that Brenner killed the brown bear, said Linda Krack, a Washington state resident working there on Saturday.

"I'm not from here, but locals were pretty angry," Krack said. "Rumor had it, it wasn't necessary, but I sure don't know. I wasn't there. I didn't have it charging after me."

Lewis, who interviewed the fishermen on Saturday, dismissed such criticism. "That's absolute nonsense," he said. "He got a hearty handshake and a 'job well done' for saving himself and his buddies."

[GJM]

An issue that we have previously discussed, is that many 9mm FMJ loads are using economy bullets that are a thin plate over soft lead, and may penetrate worse than a quality JHP. The Lehigh bullet is different construction.

[LSP552]

I will be back in Alaska next Aug and will probably carry a 9mm of some flavor with Lehigh. Typically it’s been a heavy .45 Colt load but I shoot the 9 sooo much better.

[Doc_Glock]

An issue that we have previously discussed, is that many 9mm FMJ loads are using economy bullets that are a thin plate over soft lead, and may penetrate worse than a quality JHP. The Lehigh bullet is different construction.

By 9mm ball I meant 9mm solids like Lehigh.

A couple questions:

1. How much penetration in gel is needed to correlate with penetrating Brown bear skull?

2. How much penetration does 45 Super/Lehigh get you now in gel?

[JHC]

I remember that one. It was the first time I heard of someone shooting a bear with a 9mm.

Nice! Kenai instead of Kodiak and a river instead of an ocean. Outrageous fake news on my part! BAD WITNESS! SAD!!! ;)

[Clusterfrack]

By 9mm ball I meant 9mm solids like Lehigh.

A couple questions:

1. How much penetration in gel is needed to correlate with penetrating Brown bear skull?

2. How much penetration does 45 Super/Lehigh get you now in gel?

I’ll add:
3. Is there any advantage to the +p+ XP load (1350fps)?

[DocGKR]

Look at automobile windshield tests of various loads....

[Doc_Glock]

Look at automobile windshield tests of various loads....

I did a bunch of searching this afternoon. Can’t find any tests of the Lehigh bullet through auto glass into gel.

If anyone finds that information I think it would be really helpful.

I did learn that auto glass is an outstanding bullet barrier that FMJ rounds struggle with and well designed JHP rounds barely get adequate (12”) penetration with in most cases (I was looking at 9mm tests.) In other words, like the good Doc says it is a really good model for skull bone.

For a bear skull I think much more than 12” of penetration after auto glass barrier would be desirable.

[Doc_Glock]

By 9mm ball I meant 9mm solids like

2. How much penetration does 45 Super/Lehigh get you now in gel?

Re read thread and took in the above gel tests through sheet metal.

9m vastly out penetrates 45 super in bare gel.

9mm has slightly less penetration than 45 super through 20ga steel.

9mm has more rounds, and easier to shoot.

Winner: 9mm.

[GJM]

My experience in the hunting fields is that bullet placement is number one. Number two is bullet construction. Number three is bullet diameter/weight. The bear defense scenario is different than hunting, though, in that you are primarily trying to bust the brain at very close range. What we don’t know is whether a Lehigh bullet from one service caliber is more likely to penetrate the skull and reach the bear’s brain.

[El Cid]

My experience in the hunting fields is that bullet placement is number one. Number two is bullet construction. Number three is bullet diameter/weight. The bear defense scenario is different than hunting, though, in that you are primarily trying to bust the brain at very close range. What we don’t know is whether a Lehigh bullet from one service caliber is more likely to penetrate the skull and reach the bear’s brain.

I’m still trying to set up a shoot through a windshield. But I am not going through all the trouble of gel so I’ll have clay blocks as a backer. I have 9mm +p and 10mm (Underwood and Fed Trophy Bomded) to try.

I don’t have a USP 45... but will a Smith 625-2 safely shoot 45 Super?

[DocGKR]

Clay does not tell you much...

[El Cid]

Clay does not tell you much...

Agreed, but I figure with it and some water I can at least recover the bullets. I don’t have the resources to do proper gel and clear gel is expensive and also doesn’t give the same results.