Lehigh Defense: Xtreme Penetrator Ammunition

[DocGKR]

Just do water....

[Spartan1980]

I don’t have a USP 45... but will a Smith 625-2 safely shoot 45 Super?

I wish I could help you, but I'd do a LOT of research before I tried it. I'm pretty certain that the frame and barrel would handle it just fine, it's the cylinder that's the weak point. The cylinder stop notches are right in the center of the chambers, which leaves a very thin chamber wall at that point in .45 caliber. Ruger's notches are offset between chambers giving them a much thicker cross section of steel. The Super brass is thicker in the web but it's still just brass.

I have a friend that converted his 625 to .460 Rowland and I've contemplated doing the same. You may be fine but be careful.

[Frank R]

I did a bunch of searching this afternoon. Can’t find any tests of the Lehigh bullet through auto glass into gel.

If anyone finds that information I think it would be really helpful.

I did learn that auto glass is an outstanding bullet barrier that FMJ rounds struggle with and well designed JHP rounds barely get adequate (12”) penetration with in most cases (I was looking at 9mm tests.) In other words, like the good Doc says it is a really good model for skull bone.

For a bear skull I think much more than 12” of penetration after auto glass barrier would be desirable.


Here's some barrier tests for Underwood ammo. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=underwood+xtreme+defender

[Doc_Glock]

Here's some barrier tests for Underwood ammo. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=underwood+xtreme+defender

I appreciate the link with a list of gel tests, but those are generally irrelevant to this discussion.

I have yet to find a windshield barrier test into gel for the Lehigh Xtreme -penetrator- bullet. If you see one there, let us know.

[Frank R]

I appreciate the link with a list of gel tests, but those are generally irrelevant to this discussion.

I have yet to find a windshield barrier test into gel for the Lehigh Xtreme -penetrator- bullet. If you see one there, let us know.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UV_1zXdDf4Y&t=375s

[JHC]

I did a bunch of searching this afternoon. Can’t find any tests of the Lehigh bullet through auto glass into gel.

If anyone finds that information I think it would be really helpful.

I did learn that auto glass is an outstanding bullet barrier that FMJ rounds struggle with and well designed JHP rounds barely get adequate (12”) penetration with in most cases (I was looking at 9mm tests.) In other words, like the good Doc says it is a really good model for skull bone.

For a bear skull I think much more than 12” of penetration after auto glass barrier would be desirable.

I figure if the windshield represents the bone challenge, once defeated, it's brain, and 12 inches of gel would be a lot of brain.

[Velo Dog]

Three different Lehigh loads, Hornady Critical Duty, and Federal HST tested through auto glass.

Xtreme Penetrator begins at 2:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0NTjd-Cx0I

[Velo Dog]

From https://www.lehighdefense.com/collections/ammo/xtreme-penetrator

Inches of penetration into FBI standard 10% ballistics gelatin after 4 layers of denim

44 Remington Magnum 220gr Xtreme Penetrator @ 1,200 FPS...32.0 inches
45 Colt 250gr 30,000 PSI High Pressure Load @1,100 FPS........32.0 inches
9mm Luger 115gr @ 1,150 FPS............................................30+ inches
45 Colt 250gr @ 850 FPS............................................... ....28.0 inches
44 Special 220gr @750 FPS............................................... .27.5 inches
45 ACP +P 200gr @950 FPS............................................... .27.0 inches
357 Mag 140gr @ 1,250 FPS from 4" barrel............................27.0 inches
357 SIG 115gr @ 1,325 FPS............................................... 27.0 inches
10mm Auto 140gr @ 1,200 FPS...........................................26.0 inches
40 S&W 140gr @ 1,050 FPS............................................... .21.5 inches
38 Special +P 140gr @ 850 FPS...........................................17.0 inches
380 Auto 90gr Xtreme Penetrator @ 950 FPS.........................17.0 inches

[Doc_Glock]

I figure if the windshield represents the bone challenge, once defeated, it's brain, and 12 inches of gel would be a lot of brain.

Then we should just be using cartridges from DocGKR ‘s recommended JHP list and move on with life as they all pretty much do that.

Edited to add: it is all well and good if you hit the brain. The Iraq bet video convinced me plain old HST will work just fine. For a skull/brain hit.

If we miss the brain, then the greatest penetration possible is desirable and the HST seems a lot sadder sitting only 12” into a bear’s soft tissue.

[JHC]

Then we should just be using cartridges from DocGKR ‘s recommended JHP list and move on with life as they all pretty much do that.

Edited to add: it is all well and good if you hit the brain. The Iraq bet video convinced me plain old HST will work just fine. For a skull/brain hit.

If we miss the brain, then the greatest penetration possible is desirable and the HST seems a lot sadder sitting only 12” into a bear’s soft tissue.

I haven't done it but I believe bonded JHPs would do it. (re Alaska Trooper testing of service pistol calibers I read of 20 years ago but cannot find anymore)

[WDR]

Then we should just be using cartridges from DocGKR ‘s recommended JHP list and move on with life as they all pretty much do that.

Agree.

I long ago decided to just stick with my usual 9mm JHP loads when bumming around in the mountains. Given that I don't live in GRIZZ country, and even black bears are pretty rare to bump into here, I don't stress about it much. I think I am far more likely to bump into a cougar than a bear, and I feel like service caliber JHP should work just fine for either of those.

If defense against grizzlies was a primary concern, I'd be a lot more interested in copper solids or hard cast. I've almost bought a box of the 115gr 9mm Xtreme Penetrator bullets quite a few times... just to experiment with handloading for woods use, but every time I just cant justify the cost.

[GJM]

Then we should just be using cartridges from DocGKR ‘s recommended JHP list and move on with life as they all pretty much do that.

Edited to add: it is all well and good if you hit the brain. The Iraq bet video convinced me plain old HST will work just fine. For a skull/brain hit.

If we miss the brain, then the greatest penetration possible is desirable and the HST seems a lot sadder sitting only 12” into a bear’s soft tissue.

If you shoot a warning shot, and the bear runs away, it doesn’t matter what load you are shooting.

If you shoot the bear anywhere in the body, and it runs away simply because it doesn’t like being shot, it doesn’t matter what load you are shooting.

If the warning and body shots fail to dissuade the bear, and you have a determined bear still coming at you, the most reliable way to stop the attack is to penetrate the bear’s skull and hit their brain. Assuming your marksmanship is good, it gets down to whether your bullet can penetrate the skull and reach the brain — that is a pass/fail scenario. For those of us that live and recreate around grizzly bears, trying to understand what bullet will or will not penetrate the skull is more than just a theoretical concern.

[Doc_Glock]

For those of us that live and recreate around grizzly bears, trying to understand what bullet will or will not penetrate the skull is more than just a theoretical concern.

I understand that. From what I can tell, though, theory and a few anecdotal reports are all you have to go on for this decision currently.

Hopefully the AK/MT dwellers can find some like minded friends with access to a bunch of freshly dead brown bears to test things less theoretically.

[GJM]

I understand that. From what I can tell, though, theory and a few anecdotal reports are all you have to go on for this decision currently.

Hopefully the AK/MT dwellers can find some like minded friends with access to a bunch of freshly dead brown bears to test things less theoretically.

Not likely to happen. When you shoot a grizzly bear in self defense in AK for example, you report it to the state, fill out a multi page questionnaire, turn the hide and skull over to the authorities, and are interviewed to determine whether your shoot was justified under the DLP (defense of life and property) law. When I defensively shot that brown bear on Kodiak with my .375 H&H, I wondered about skull penetration as I was also carrying a Glock 20, and thought that would be a very bad thing to have to explain as to why I was now doing science on the bear’s skull. Also, shooting a dead bear on the ground is different than shooting a live bear in a charging posture.

[JHC]

I understand that. From what I can tell, though, theory and a few anecdotal reports are all you have to go on for this decision currently.

Hopefully the AK/MT dwellers can find some like minded friends with access to a bunch of freshly dead brown bears to test things less theoretically.

I have to believe that a steer's skull through it's forehead must be just as tough to penetrate as a big bears shot through the nostrils/mouth which is I understand the ideal front on aiming point.

Mas Ayoob used to kill beef cattle like this quite a bit at a slaughterhouse when testing different calibers and loads. That was back in the days of gun magazines. Not sure I've seen it on the internet. I don't recall an example of a service pistol caliber load failing to brain the steer.

[GJM]

What do the authorities do with the skulls?

In AK, they sell hide and skull at an annual auction.

[Velo Dog]

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz5PP12839e

[GJM]

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz5PP12839e

This is a really good read. Compilation of many events, a number of which we have discussed on PF over the years.

As discussed previously, handguns have been slightly more effective on repelling bear attacks than long guns, and overall pretty successful regardless of caliber, because:

1) bear attacks tend to be close range fights where the reachout ability of the rifle is irrelevant and most long guns carried by sportsman don't lend themselves to rapidity of fire.

2) in tangles, handguns are handier and easier to use than a long gun.

3) fortunately, bears don't like to be shot, and many less than fatal wounds end the attack.

4) handguns are often on the person at the time of the attack, as opposed to the rifle or shotgun in the cabin, aircraft or against a tree at the side of the stream while fishing.

All that said, my choice is a 14 inch Benelli loaded with Brenneke Classic Magnum slugs, backed up by a service pistol with penetrating ammo.

[cheby]

my choice is a 14 inch Benelli loaded with Brenneke Classic Magnum slugs.

Do you think a shotgun is better than a rifle? (Disregarding the barrel length in this question). Just curious.

[GJM]

Do you think a shotgun is better than a rifle? (Disregarding the barrel length in this question). Just curious.

“Better” is usually a trick question — can you elaborate on your question? :D

[cheby]

“Better” is usually a trick question — can you elaborate on your question? :D

Okay, let's say you are to shoot a charging grizzly at 20yrds, what would be your choice? Again, just curious:)

[GJM]

Okay, let's say you are to shoot a charging grizzly at 20yrds, what would be your choice? Again, just curious:)

For that scenario, I would take a Benelli M2, Benelli M4 or 1301 with an Aimpoint and a tube full of Brenneke slugs over anything else I have. The Brenneke gives you target zones beyond the brain that can severely impair the bear’s mobility, and the semi-auto shotgun allows for rapid follow-up shots. Trigger and trajectory, which are attributes of a rifle, don’t mean much when the shots start at 20 yards and get closer each second.

[5pins]

https://i.imgur.com/skMtANKl.jpg?1

I had the chance the shoot the 10mm today. Unfortunately, I had some issues and was only able to catch two rounds in the gel, one through the sheet metal and one in bare. The other two exited out of the top of the first block. The first round through the sheet metal penetrated 21.25 inches. The velocity was not picked up. The second and third were shot, into the bare gel, both came out of the top of the block. I was able to pick up the velocity of the third round and it was 1482fps. I decided to shoot the last round into bare gel in hopes of getting at least one and it penetrated to 24.25 inches with a velocity of 1512fps.

As an aside, the wound tracks in the clear gel actually looked impressive, at least the ones fired in the bare gel. With the .45 and 9mm, the tracks didn't look much different than a ball round and certainly not like I see with hollow points. This 10mm load looked much more like what I would expect to see with an expanding bullet. I'm not sure if that means anything or not but I thought it was worth mentioning.

[GJM]

https://i.imgur.com/skMtANKl.jpg?1

I had the chance the shoot the 10mm today. Unfortunately, I had some issues and was only able to catch two rounds in the gel, one through the sheet metal and one in bare. The other two exited out of the top of the first block. The first round through the sheet metal penetrated 21.25 inches. The velocity was not picked up. The second and third were shot, into the bare gel, both came out of the top of the block. I was able to pick up the velocity of the third round and it was 1482fps. I decided to shoot the last round into bare gel in hopes of getting at least one and it penetrated to 24.25 inches with a velocity of 1512fps.

As an aside, the wound tracks in the clear gel actually looked impressive, at least the ones fired in the bare gel. With the .45 and 9mm, the tracks didn't look much different than a ball round and certainly not like I see with hollow points. This 10mm load looked much more like what I would expect to see with an expanding bullet. I'm not sure if that means anything or not but I thought it was worth mentioning.

1) I am assuming those are the cartridges I sent?

2) that velocity seeems quite high — would seem to put it in a different class than the other rounds tested so far?

3) wondering if that high a velocity is good or bad in the use that we are discussing?

[Velo Dog]

https://i.imgur.com/skMtANKl.jpg?1
The first round through the sheet metal penetrated 21.25 inches.

The Double Tap 200 grain FMJ-FP went about 22 inches in your sheet metal testing.
9mm hollow points can penetrate over 20 inches of gel in FBI car door/sheet metal testing.
I'm still not sure the solid copper Xtreme Penetrators are all that extreme in penetrating barriers or even blocks of gelatin.

[5pins]

1) I am assuming those are the cartridges I sent?

2) that velocity seeems quite high — would seem to put it in a different class than the other rounds tested so far?

3) wondering if that high a velocity is good or bad in the use that we are discussing?

Yes, these are the ones you sent me. The velocity is in line with Underwood’s claims and probably accounts for the “wound tracks”. Since the bullet is only 140 grains the velocity is going to have to be pretty high in order to have proper functioning. Recoil wasn’t excessive and manageable. The cases didn’t show any signs of excessive pressure.

[5pins]

The Double Tap 200 grain FMJ-FP went about 22 inches in your sheet metal testing.
9mm hollow points can penetrate over 20 inches of gel in FBI car door/sheet metal testing.
I'm still not sure the solid copper Xtreme Penetrators are all that extreme in penetrating barriers or even blocks of gelatin.

So far I tend to agree with your assessment.

I still have the .40 S&W and .45+P to shoot but I don't think we will see anything much different.

[JHC]

Seems like any service caliber does it. G19 for the win! ;)

[GJM]

So far I tend to agree with your assessment.

I still have the .40 S&W and .45+P to shoot but I don't think we will see anything much different.

I should send you some of the Buffalo Bore 147 grain hard cast. I was skeptical as to function, but the box I tried fed fine thru a G19.

[Clusterfrack]

Yeah, the BB hardcast work in my G19 and G43.

[STI]

The BB 147 hardcast repeatedly choked my G5G17 even though it runs fine in my G3G26. I'm thinking it's the tighter chamber.

[GJM]

My experience is hard cast and wide meplat bullets are not conducive to reliability in service pistols generally, and Glock pistols specifically. This is based on years of frustration with some thousands of rounds of hard cast in different pistols, where I would think I was fine and then encounter issues. Interestingly, I have never had a stoppage with a Lehigh Penetrator bullet load in any caliber or any pistol.

[Clusterfrack]

I agree with GJM. The hardcast did not work in my G20. Lehigh XP were 100% in G20 G43, and P07.

[OlongJohnson]

My experience is hard cast and wide meplat bullets are not conducive to reliability in service pistols generally, and Glock pistols specifically. This is based on years of frustration with some thousands of rounds of hard cast in different pistols, where I would think I was fine and then encounter issues. Interestingly, I have never had a stoppage with a Lehigh Penetrator bullet load in any caliber or any pistol.

My recollection is you were running truncated cone flat point FMJ in .45 Super in the USP .45 prior to changing to Lehigh. Did you actually have any issues with them functioning, or was it concern that they might for the first time at the wrong time, or concern about holding together and penetrating? Or did Lehigh just seem less likely to have any of those issues based on your all-around experience?

Hornady made some in the past, but the only currently-available 230gr FMJ FP I can find are the Noslers, and they aren't advertised as being bonded.

[GJM]

My recollection is you were running truncated cone flat point FMJ in .45 Super in the USP .45 prior to changing to Lehigh. Did you actually have any issues with them functioning, or was it concern that they might for the first time at the wrong time, or concern about holding together and penetrating? Or did Lehigh just seem less likely to have any of those issues based on your all-around experience?

Hornady made some in the past, but the only currently-available 230gr FMJ FP I can find are the Noslers, and they aren't advertised as being bonded.

Multiple people had issues with hard cast in the Super, so I ruled that out. I couldn’t get info on the construction of the B.B. FMJ bullet, so went to the Lehigh.

[OlongJohnson]

I’d definitely be interested in seeing some of those Cutting Edge bullets in front of a heavy load of Silhouette running through a USP.

[OlongJohnson]

If the warning and body shots fail to dissuade the bear, and you have a determined bear still coming at you, the most reliable way to stop the attack is to penetrate the bear’s skull and hit their brain. Assuming your marksmanship is good, it gets down to whether your bullet can penetrate the skull and reach the brain — that is a pass/fail scenario. For those of us that live and recreate around grizzly bears, trying to understand what bullet will or will not penetrate the skull is more than just a theoretical concern.

The world needs a grizzly bear skull simulant. It should be called the "bear gel" test.

;)

[OlongJohnson]

Did a search on the thread and didn't see it come up.

tntoutdoors tested it in 9mm. He criticizes it heavily for the extended penetration, but he is clearly not imagining George's use for it, where that's an asset.

One thing that's goofy is the machining of these projectiles from bar stock. They should be pure copper, to avoid being classified as armor-piercing ammunition, which means they should also be soft enough to be quite easily forged. There would be some tooling cost, but they could be slammed out like a sewing machine cycling on the right equipment and bring either the cost per round way down or the profit way up. The downside of small business...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYLbmSp5itA

[OlongJohnson]

One thing that's goofy is the machining of these projectiles from bar stock. They should be pure copper, to avoid being classified as armor-piercing ammunition, which means they should also be soft enough to be quite easily forged. There would be some tooling cost, but they could be slammed out like a sewing machine cycling on the right equipment and bring either the cost per round way down or the profit way up. The downside of small business...

This should give some idea of what's possible (they're running more complex parts from steel). Run it with pure annealed copper, and you'd likely be able to turn the speed up to 11, where it would be difficult to see things move:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqW-0Ww3Ql4

[Velo Dog]

I have converted to the Underwood Extreme Penetrator load for all semi-auto field use, and have a supply of this ammo in 9, .40, 45 +P and .45 Super. Running the +P in the HK45C and the Super in the USP FS.

Underwood has an "AMMO ID SECTION" on its website.

The 10mm Xtreme Penetrator is recommended for medium, large, and dangerous game.
https://www.underwoodammo.com/products/10mm-auto-140-grain-xtreme-penetrator?variant=7865928056889

The 45 Super Xtreme Penetrator lacks the dangerous game usage symbol.
https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/45-super-200-grain-xtreme-penetrator?variant=7865933267001

Perhaps Underwood knows something we don't, or maybe there is a LOT more interest in the 10mm Auto cartridge for bear defense.

I think it is mostly marketing hype. ;)

This loading also lacks the dangerous game usage symbol. :confused:
https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/475-linebaugh-300-grain-xtreme-penetrator?variant=7865928155193

[GJM]

Underwood has an "AMMO ID SECTION" on its website.

The 10mm Xtreme Penetrator is recommended for medium, large, and dangerous game.
https://www.underwoodammo.com/products/10mm-auto-140-grain-xtreme-penetrator?variant=7865928056889

The 45 Super Xtreme Penetrator lacks the dangerous game usage symbol.
https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/45-super-200-grain-xtreme-penetrator?variant=7865933267001

Perhaps Underwood knows something we don't, or maybe there is a LOT more interest in the 10mm Auto cartridge for bear defense.

I think it is mostly marketing hype. ;)

This loading also lacks the dangerous game usage symbol. :confused:
https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/475-linebaugh-300-grain-xtreme-penetrator?variant=7865928155193

Times be changin’ — not that many years ago .45 acp would have been labeled “defense,” and 9mm recommended for children, women or training only.

[Velo Dog]

Times be changin’ — not that many years ago .45 acp would have been labeled “defense,” and 9mm recommended for children, women or training only.

Yep. Here's an Underwood 9mm Luger MEDIUM GAME loading :rolleyes:
https://www.underwoodammo.com/collections/handgun-ammo/products/9mm-luger-plus-p-plus-115-grain-xtreme-penetrator?variant=7865933234233

[5pins]

Wow, I didn't realize how long it's been since I did the last one. Sorry for taking so long but I finally shot the .40 S&W Underwood 140gr through the gel today using my Sig P229. Two rounds through the bare gel and two through the sheet metal. The two rounds through the bare gel I got 22.5 and 23 inches. The velocity was 1250fps for the first one and 1260fps for the second. Both bullets were recovered base forward. The first bullet appeared to have tumbled at the 7 and 18 inch mark. Rounds one and two through the sheet metal went to 17 and 18.5 inches. I only got velocity from the second bullet and it was 1252fps.

https://i.imgur.com/AqSZOv3l.jpg?1

For comparison with the other calibers tried.

.45 Super, max penetration through the bare gel, 23.75 inches and 20.75 through the sheet metal.
9mm, max through the bare gel was 47.5 inches and 18 inches through the sheet metal.
10mm, 24.25 in bare gel and 21.25 through sheet metal.

[Duelist]

Wow, I didn't realize how long it's been since I did the last one. Sorry for taking so long but I finally shot the .40 S&W Underwood 140gr through the gel today using my Sig P229. Two rounds through the bare gel and two through the sheet metal. The two rounds through the bare gel I got 22.5 and 23 inches. The velocity was 1250fps for the first one and 1260fps for the second. Both bullets were recovered base forward. The first bullet appeared to have tumbled at the 7 and 18 inch mark. Rounds one and two through the sheet metal went to 17 and 18.5 inches. I only got velocity from the second bullet and it was 1252fps.

https://i.imgur.com/AqSZOv3l.jpg?1

For comparison with the other calibers tried.

.45 Super, max penetration through the bare gel, 23.75 inches and 20.75 through the sheet metal.
9mm, max through the bare gel was 47.5 inches and 18 inches through the sheet metal.
10mm, 24.25 in bare gel and 21.25 through sheet metal.

9mm went 47” in bare gel? Seriously? Very cool, if that’s not a typo.

[5pins]

9mm went 47” in bare gel? Seriously? Very cool, if that’s not a typo.

No, it's not a typo.

[Duelist]

No, it's not a tyop.

Cool! New hiking load, boxes ordering now.

[Joe in PNG]

Wonder how the .32 and .380 loads do.

[5pins]

Wonder how the .32 and .380 loads do.

Funny you should ask. I shot a Buffalo Bore .327 mag 130gr hardcast yesterday and it went through two blocks. I'm going to try it again with more blocks later.

Underwood makes a .380 100gr +P hardcast. I was thinking of dragging my CC through their website and buy a bunch of different hardcast in 10mm, 9mm, .45, and .40. I wonder if adding .380 would be worth it.

[Duelist]

Funny you should ask. I shot a Buffalo Bore .327 mag 130gr hardcast yesterday and it went through two blocks. I'm going to try it again with more blocks later.

Underwood makes a .380 100gr +P hardcast. I was thinking of dragging my CC through their website and buy a bunch of different hardcast in 10mm, 9mm, .45, and .40. I wonder if adding .380 would be worth it.

Video length is longer than it needs to be, but MAC tested some recently:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-PDQcE-1T40

[Clusterfrack]

I carry Underwood/Lehigh XP 90gr .380 in my LCP.

Coincidentally, I was just testing BB 147gr hardcast 9mm in my wife's new Ruger LCR. There was measurable "crimp-jump" as the bullet was pulled out of the case by recoil inertia. Not enough to cause problems, but noticeable. I later found that some people are taper-crimping their 9mm revolver ammo. I wonder if the copper Lehigh XP bullets would be less prone to crimp-jump?

[Spartan1980]

I carry Underwood/Lehigh XP 90gr .380 in my LCP.

Coincidentally, I was just testing BB 147gr hardcast 9mm in my wife's new Ruger LCR. There was measurable "crimp-jump" as the bullet was pulled out of the case by recoil inertia. Not enough to cause problems, but noticeable. I later found that some people are taper-crimping their 9mm revolver ammo. I wonder if the copper Lehigh XP bullets would be less prone to crimp-jump?

Take it from someone who's loaded and shot thousands of revo rounds. A taper crimp will not hold the bullet in place. Only a heavy roll crimp into a cannelure will hold it.

[BBMW]

I put this out before, and I don't think I ever got a clear answer. Has this type of round (solid, non-expanded, fluted projectile) ever been shown to have superior performance to FMJ as far as incapacitating humans?

[the Schwartz]

I put this out before, and I don't think I ever got a clear answer. Has this type of round (solid, non-expanded, fluted projectile) ever been shown to have superior performance to FMJ as far as incapacitating humans?

From what I have seen, the answer to your question is likely a solid ''no''. Not seeing any large LE agencies or the .mil buying this stuff.

LeHigh Defense's advertisements suggest that they have yet to realize that the radial cracking exhinbited in testing in 10% gelatin (of any other test medium) does not correlate directly with actual tissue damage.

The claims that they are making (either intentionally or out of ignorance) can mislead potential buyers and in either event, I would hesitate to take anything that they say as accurate.

FWIW, I am taking this opinion as the final word on the matter:


This idea of a solid projectile with flat point and flutes has been around for a long time. We tested a .45 Auto 185 gr +P solid w/flat point and flutes for NSW back in the late 1980's or so.

Despite media and vendor hype to the contrary, these solid fluted bullets just punch a hole in tissue like any FMJ--there is no mystical hydraulic energy, magical pressure spikes, absurdly enlarged wound cavity, etc...

Nonetheless, this design can be a good projectile and offer decent terminal performance.

[Clusterfrack]

Take it from someone who's loaded and shot thousands of revo rounds. A taper crimp will not hold the bullet in place. Only a heavy roll crimp into a cannelure will hold it.

You’re not wrong. However my testing today yielded acceptable results for Buffalo Bore 147 hard cast with an added taper crimp. My take home is: don’t re-use any defense rounds from a cylinder that’s been partially shot. I’m satisfied that it’s not going to jump out during any single 5 shot engagement.

BB HC with taper crimp: 1.0760” COL
1.0970” after 4 shots
1.1160” after 8 shots

On the other hand, Lehigh XP jumped out a lot more, and I can’t recommend this bullet for 9mm revolvers:
XP 1.0965” COL
1.1675” after 4 shots

[Joe in PNG]

From what I have seen, the answer to your question is likely a solid ''no''. Not seeing any large LE agencies or the .mil buying this stuff.

LeHigh Defense's advertisements suggest that they have yet to realize that the radial cracking exhinbited in testing in 10% gelatin (of any other test medium) does not correlate directly with actual tissue damage.

The claims that they are making (either intentionally or out of ignorance) can mislead potential buyers and in either event, I would hesitate to take anything that they say as accurate.

FWIW, I am taking this opinion as the final word on the matter:

My hope is that this would be better than the usual loads for .32acp or .380acp, where you either get a JHP that expands, but doesn't penetrate, or a FMJ that deflects off bones ect. due to the round nose profile.

Admittedly, it's no where close to what a good 9mm will do, but sometimes a NPE mouseguns or "old man's gun" is the only option one might have.

[BBMW]

This is what I strongly suspected.


From what I have seen, the answer to your question is likely a solid ''no''. Not seeing any large LE agencies or the .mil buying this stuff.

LeHigh Defense's advertisements suggest that they have yet to realize that the radial cracking exhinbited in testing in 10% gelatin (of any other test medium) does not correlate directly with actual tissue damage.

The claims that they are making (either intentionally or out of ignorance) can mislead potential buyers and in either event, I would hesitate to take anything that they say as accurate.

FWIW, I am taking this opinion as the final word on the matter:

[5pins]

Wonder how the .32 and .380 loads do.

Here are some Buffalo Bore 130gr 327 mag loads I shot into some clear gel from Ruger Single-Seven with a 4.75-inch barrel. They went 54.5 and 55 inches in bare gel and 17.75 and 20 inches through sheet metal. Velocity varied from 1232fps to 1270fps.

https://i.imgur.com/IE2i1FQl.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/nkbYbQgl.jpg?1

[GJM]

Here are some Buffalo Bore 130gr 327 mag loads I shot into some clear gel from Ruger Single-Seven with a 4.75-inch barrel. They went 54.5 and 55 inches in bare gel and 17.75 and 20 inches through sheet metal. Velocity varied from 1232fps to 1270fps.

https://i.imgur.com/IE2i1FQl.jpg?1

https://i.imgur.com/nkbYbQgl.jpg?1

Probably would get into the skull of most bears.

[Joe in PNG]

Funny this came up- a friend of mine asked me to clean her Glock 42, and she had a load of .380 Glasers in the mag.

I mentioned she needed better ammo- what's better? Extreme Penetrators or BB hardcast flatpoints?

[GJM]

Funny this came up- a friend of mine asked me to clean her Glock 42, and she had a load of .380 Glasers in the mag.

I mentioned she needed better ammo- what's better? Extreme Penetrators or BB hardcast flatpoints?

Does she value reliability or penetration more?

[Joe in PNG]

Does she value reliability or penetration more?

She's a gun noob- thus the Glasers- but willing to learn. But, I'd think that reliability first with good penetration would be the way to go.

[JodyH]

My G42 is loaded with Underwood 90gr. +P Penetrators because if I were to need my pocket carry G42 there's about a 95% chance it would be on a feral dog and the bullet design seems to be the best option for penetrating a hard, sloped surface like a straight on shot into a Pit's skull.
I've also found them to be 100% reliable in both my G42 and my P380.

I'm about to take off on a week long backcountry dual-sport motorcycle ride (doing the southern Rockies part of the Continental Divide).
I'll be carrying a Glock 19X loaded with Underwood 115gr. +P+ Penetrators, again mainly for defense against hard skulled critters and miscreants in vehicles.
For some reason dogs and pickup driving idiots like to mess with people on motorcycles (especially when you're solo in the middle of nowhere).

[Duelist]

Funny this came up- a friend of mine asked me to clean her Glock 42, and she had a load of .380 Glasers in the mag.

I mentioned she needed better ammo- what's better? Extreme Penetrators or BB hardcast flatpoints?

Just about anything would be better, of course. I can’t believe she’s run enough of the Glasers to know if it will actually run in her gun.

Hornady XTP runs in ours, and seems to work in gel. Round nose FMJ works in both of ours, as you would expect, but the flat nose FMJ Winchester uses doesn’t run in one of them - I get pretty consistent feedramp hangups where the flat hits the bottom edge of the feedramp and stops.

Round nose FMJ that runs beats anything that won’t, so all our spare mags are loaded with that, and the two “in the gun” mags are loaded with XTP.

[Joe in PNG]

Just about anything would be better, of course. I can’t believe she’s run enough of the Glasers to know if it will actually run in her gun.

Actually, I don't think she's ever shot that gun. She's a widow, and asked me to clean it for her. That thing was so dry that I could hardly get the slide back, and she was surprised that there wasn't a round in the chamber- which could have made for a rather awkward click.

[Duelist]

Actually, I don't think she's ever shot that gun. She's a widow, and asked me to clean it for her. That thing was so dry that I could hardly get the slide back, and she was surprised that there wasn't a round in the chamber- which could have made for a rather awkward click.

:eek:

[Chuck Haggard]

Funny this came up- a friend of mine asked me to clean her Glock 42, and she had a load of .380 Glasers in the mag.

I mentioned she needed better ammo- what's better? Extreme Penetrators or BB hardcast flatpoints?

Hornady XTPs

[Joe in PNG]

I should be able to snag a box at one of the local shops this week.

[SiriusBlunder]

I should be able to snag a box at one of the local shops this week.

If you can't find an XTP loading, Federal Hydra-Shok are also OK.

Federal has a rebate now.

They are on sale at Target Sports USA right now, and with the rebate, come out to $.35/round.

https://www.targetsportsusa.com/federal-personal-defense-380-acp-ammo-90-grain-hydra-shok-jacketed-hollow-point-pd380hs1h-p-975.aspx

[SAWBONES]

Actually, I don't think she's ever shot that gun. She's a widow, and asked me to clean it for her. That thing was so dry that I could hardly get the slide back, and she was surprised that there wasn't a round in the chamber- which could have made for a rather awkward click.

Yet another "gun-as-talisman" gun owner.

I suppose that it's good that such a person, as an initial step, has gone so far as to actually acquire a firearm at all, but to be so naive as to then apparently imagine that it will somehow "protect her", absent any experience, practice, maintenance or study on her part, seems hard to believe.

[Mike C]

If you're okay with a smaller company loading I've had excellent luck with Precision One's XTP loadings. I've shot about 500 rounds of both the +P version and the standard pressure stuff in .380 ACP, (250 rounds of each in +P and std pressure). It shoots clean, accurate and reliable as far as I've experienced. I've run about 75 rounds through an LCP, (standard pressure) the other 425 were through a G42. It can be bought in bulk, and is good alternative if you can't find factory Hornady loaded stuff. Fiocchi extrema used to also be available with an XTP projectile in 50 round boxes. Not sure if they're still made though.

[Joe in PNG]

If you can't find an XTP loading, Federal Hydra-Shok are also OK.



My local had a box of XTP in stock.

[Joe in PNG]

Yet another "gun-as-talisman" gun owner.

I suppose that it's good that such a person, as an initial step, has gone so far as to actually acquire a firearm at all, but to be so naive as to then apparently imagine that it will somehow "protect her", absent any experience, practice, maintenance or study on her part, seems hard to believe.

She's interested in getting more into shooting and so on.

[5pins]

I'm not a big fan of Buffalo Bore but this looks like the Xtreme Penetrator bullet without the fluting.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=571

https://www.buffalobore.com/images/products/large_571_21DG_Large.png

[cheby]

I'm not a big fan of Buffalo Bore but this looks like the Xtreme Penetrator bullet without the fluting.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=571

https://www.buffalobore.com/images/products/large_571_21DG_Large.png

If this runs in Glock20, it could be a perfect load

[Clusterfrack]

If this runs in Glock20, it could be a perfect load

I am convinced that the G20 with heavy 10mm loads needs an extra power mag spring and mag shims for reliable function. Bullet shape is not the main factor.

I am adding a metal Zev mag release as well.

[0ddl0t]

From what I have seen, the answer to your question is likely a solid ''no''. Not seeing any large LE agencies or the .mil buying this stuff.

LeHigh Defense's advertisements suggest that they have yet to realize that the radial cracking exhinbited in testing in 10% gelatin (of any other test medium) does not correlate directly with actual tissue damage.

Not only do these fluted bullets seem to do more damage to gel than FMJ, they do significantly more damage to meat:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1xpAbV2gsQ

Granted living tissue is more elastic than butchered pork chops/pork ribs, but if I couldn't carry expanding bullets I'd feel better loaded with fluted underwood defender/polycase arx than ball ammo.

[the Schwartz]

Not only do these fluted bullets seem to do more damage to gel than FMJ, they do significantly more damage to meat:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1xpAbV2gsQ

Granted living tissue is more elastic than butchered pork chops/pork ribs, but if I couldn't carry expanding bullets I'd feel better loaded with fluted underwood defender/polycase arx than ball ammo.

I've never been able to take Mr. Harrell's videos very seriously and have several reservations as to the validity of his work; his use of oranges to simulate pulmonary tissue being chief among them. None of the groceries that Harrell is shooting are documented as being valid soft tissue analogs, so conclusions drawn from Harrell's videos are suspect at best.

[Baldanders]

I've never been able to take Mr. Harrell's videos very seriously and have several reservations as to the validity of his work; his use of oranges to simulate pulmonary tissue being chief among them. None of the groceries that Harrell is shooting are documented as being valid soft tissue analogs, so conclusions drawn from Harrell's videos are suspect at best.

His observations outside of terminal ballistics usually strike me as more valid than his obervations inside the subject area.

I`ve never understood why he doesn't use rubber bags or something similar for "lung tissue." Probably to hard to obtain locally.

I tried his "break the concrete block evenly bit" with my cw45 recently, and that shit is more difficult than it looks. (I toppled the block on shot three, having blown apart the base.) He's a fine shot. But I didn't throw away my 9mm 147 Ranger T-series ammo, even after his video declared it "crap." That video, and a few others by him, do show that ammo batches vary, sometimes dramatically.

The meat target bits are fun, I just wish he described them that way instead of "definitive." Shooting water-filled jugs of a consistent type every time would be at least a comparable data set.

Hence, my highly scientific "Redneck Ballistic Protocol." 🤡

[Baldanders]

Has anyone here actually shot a live critter with any of the fluted Leigh,ARX, or silmilar bullets and necro'd the animal? I think I've read this whole thread, don't recall such.

[DueSpada]

Lehigh Defense versus...

http://www.nighthogs.com/LeHigh_Defense.php

[JodyH]

Thread resurrection.

In my Glocks the 115gr. +P+ Penetrators run great with zero issues.

In my Wilson Commander 9mm the Penetrators spit the primers out almost as far as the empty casings go.
Out of 11 rounds shot, 9 of them blew out the primers.

I'm guessing a tighter chamber and/or shorter lead is squeezing every last PSI out of them to the point of over pressure.

I'll save the +P+ Underwood for my Glocks, blowing primers 90% of the time isn't worth messing around with.

[Clusterfrack]

Thread resurrection.

In my Glocks the 115gr. +P+ Penetrators run great with zero issues.

In my Wilson Commander 9mm the Penetrators spit the primers out almost as far as the empty casings go.
Out of 11 rounds shot, 9 of them blew out the primers.

I'm guessing a tighter chamber and/or shorter lead is squeezing every last PSI out of them to the point of over pressure.

I'll save the +P+ Underwood for my Glocks, blowing primers 90% of the time isn't worth messing around with.

Well, that's not good! Blown primers in a pistol a pretty good sign to not use those in that gun. Is the brass deformed? I once had a kaboom in a .40 1911, and wouldn't recommend the experience.

Quick question: after the first blown primer, why the fuck did you fire another one? :D

[JodyH]

Well, that's not good! Blown primers in a pistol a pretty good sign to not use those in that gun. Is the brass deformed? I once had a kaboom in a .40 1911, and wouldn't recommend the experience.

Quick question: after the first blown primer, why the fuck did you fire another one? :D
Brass looks normal, real easy to prep for reloading as well if I was into that kind of thing.

About 3/4 of the way through the magazine I thought I was seeing something weird ejecting along with the brass.
I'd see brass fly out to the right and something smaller fly straight up.
Of course I had to shoot another couple rounds to verify... the recoil impulses all felt normal and the pistol cycled normally so I wasn't that concerned.
It was only when I started looking around for what was flying out that I noticed the primerless casings.

[dsa]

Thread resurrection.
In my Wilson Commander 9mm the Penetrators spit the primers out almost as far as the empty casings go.
Out of 11 rounds shot, 9 of them blew out the primers.



I don't know if it could happen in 9 rounds but you might want to examine the breech face of that gun for pitting or other signs of gas cutting.

[Lester Polfus]

Thread resurrection.

In my Glocks the 115gr. +P+ Penetrators run great with zero issues.

In my Wilson Commander 9mm the Penetrators spit the primers out almost as far as the empty casings go.
Out of 11 rounds shot, 9 of them blew out the primers.

I'm guessing a tighter chamber and/or shorter lead is squeezing every last PSI out of them to the point of over pressure.

I'll save the +P+ Underwood for my Glocks, blowing primers 90% of the time isn't worth messing around with.

I fired half a box of Underwood 10mm loads and realized it had self-depriming brass. Bug not a feature?

Either way I pulled down the other 10 rounds and decided to never do that again.

[Clusterfrack]

I fired half a box of Underwood 10mm loads and realized it had self-depriming brass. Bug not a feature?

Either way I pulled down the other 10 rounds and decided to never do that again.

In what gun?

[RevolverRob]

Won’t loose primers typically happen with light charges? Heavy charges will typically flatten the primers against the breech face right? I would think that would further seat the primer, not wrench it loose?

Sounds like DoubleTap needs to check their primer pockets with a go-no go gauge and maybe change primer sources. We know not all primers are created equal (in size or quality).

[Clusterfrack]

Overpressure loads can vent through the primer pocket, deform it, and blow it out. I've never had that happen in a pistol though.

I'd want to know why the Wilson does this, while a Glock doesn't.

[Lester Polfus]

In what gun?

Glock 20. Stock everything but the sights and the skateboard tape.

Not to be a dick*, but "what gun" shouldn't matter. Ammo should not de-prime upon firing if it is fired in a properly made firearm in good repair.

(*Does starting a sentence with "not to be a dick" lessen or increase the chance you'll be perceived as a dick? Is it like talking to your wife and starting a sentence with "Now, don't get mad but...")

[Clusterfrack]

Lester Polfus , agreed. And not (too) dickish. Pushing the limits of a caliber is risky, and a lot of the companies doing it don’t seem to care as long as people are buying.

[Joe in PNG]

Lester Polfus , agreed. And not (too) dickish. Pushing the limits of a caliber is risky, and a lot of the companies doing it don’t seem to care as long as people are buying.

Plus, how many people in the general shooting public actually shoot the expensive carry ammo in their 10mm's on a regular basis?

[RevolverRob]

Overpressure loads can vent through the primer pocket, deform it, and blow it out. I've never had that happen in a pistol though.

I'd want to know why the Wilson does this, while a Glock doesn't.

Hmm, I think Jody might be right - maybe the chamber is on the shorter side and DT is loading the cartridges on the longer side? Could perhaps be causing bullet setback?

Edit sorry - these are Underwoods not Doubletaps. Same basic idea - let’s load ammo super hot.

Edit 2.0: Nah, I doubt it is setback, at least from a tight/short chamber. The Lehigh factory loads are apparently 7.3 grains of Accurate No. 7, with a COAL of 1.10” with the 115-grain penetrator. That’s a pretty damn hot load though. If there was any more setback, it wouldn’t be great news.

[Clusterfrack]

I loaded the same load (7gr #7) and had no pressure signs in a G43 and P-07. I don’t think setback is possible. No room.

[WDR]

I'd want to know why the Wilson does this, while a Glock doesn't.

I would wager a dollar on the Glock chamber being looser than the Wilson chamber... particularly the throat dimensions. Pure speculation on my part, mostly. In any event... +P++ stuff really doesn't have a whole lot of performance gains, that the risk of blowing up a gun becomes worth the squeeze, IMHO.

But 'merica and horsepower and weeeee all factor in when folks buy ammo sometimes.

[ST911]

Thread resurrection.

In my Glocks the 115gr. +P+ Penetrators run great with zero issues.

In my Wilson Commander 9mm the Penetrators spit the primers out almost as far as the empty casings go.
Out of 11 rounds shot, 9 of them blew out the primers.

I'm guessing a tighter chamber and/or shorter lead is squeezing every last PSI out of them to the point of over pressure.

I'll save the +P+ Underwood for my Glocks, blowing primers 90% of the time isn't worth messing around with.

Bullet is grooved and even with light case mouth crimp setback is pretty unlikely.
Bullet is long for weight.
WC almost certainly has a tighter chamber and shorter leade.
Bullet may be long enough and profiled to contact rifling in the WC.
That's a fast round, but it's been done before by others. I'd be curious what the SD/ES are.
Your Glock is probably a gen4 or earlier?

[3-7-77]

This happened to me recently when i was chronograph/accuracy testing a variety of 10mm ammo. Double Tap 200 gr hard cast was spitting primers in my Gen4 G20 with a comped KKM barrel ( Faux-land Special set up). Same ammo with the factory Glock barrel and in a P220 10mm and XDm 5.25 didn't cause any issues. The Underwood 200 gr hard cast I was shooting that day as well didn't have any blown primers and was running a tad faster than the Double Tap. For whatever reason, the Glock kkm combo and Double Tap 200 gr didn't get along.

[Clusterfrack]

Underwood is putting more than 7gr of #7 in their 9mm XP +p+. Here are my chrono numbers (all in a CZ P-07):

My handholds: Lehigh XP 9mm COL 1.100” 7.0 gr AA#7: 1165fps sd7

Factory Underwood Lehigh +p+: 1308fps

Of course that's still slower than the Major 9 loads (> 1434 fps) the Open shooters are running, without blown primers. I guess the Underwood load might make 165 power factor in a 5" gun.

[GJM]

My criteria for a field pistol and load start and end with reliability. I never even considered a +P+ load as it seems further out the center of the reliability envelope.

[entropy]

Dragged this one up from the depths....

Lots of good info here.

Cutting Edge 200gr .45s on the way... I’ll report back. May be a bit as the day job is once again getting in the way. Good news is that I’ll be driving the Gastineau Channel soon on a regular basis...

[GJM]

Wilson buys Lehigh:

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2022/01/05/lehigh-defense-joins-wilson-family-companies/

[Velo Dog]

Interesting test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWEG7WmDra4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWEG7WmDra4

9mm JHP beats .357 Mag Xtreme Penetrator

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

Lehigh Defense versus...

http://www.nighthogs.com/LeHigh_Defense.php

Any more references to wound channels in living things?

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

Wilson buys Lehigh:

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2022/01/05/lehigh-defense-joins-wilson-family-companies/

See now this truly has taken an interesting turn. I read in an article that Bill Wilson considers these bullets the wave of the future and I don't take that lightly with as much as Bill drops the hammer on wild critters with his guns for T&E purposes. He is on record saying the Extreme Defense has changed how many people view a defensive loading. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/wilson-combat-purchases-lehigh-defense-interview-with-bill-wilson/

JWT: What set Lehigh Defense apart from other companies and made them attractive to Wilson Combat?
Bill Wilson: I see solid copper bullets as the future of projectiles and Lehigh Defense is at the forefront of technology in this market. For example, our Controlled Chaos rifle bullets have amazing terminal performance and the Extreme Defense handgun bullets have changed the way many people think of a self-defense projectile.

I put that together with Black Hills variant of those bullets custom made for them, in the Honey Badger line. I'd say these are two strong indicators of the rounds effectiveness but I wonder why you are not hearing more about agencies using these types of loads? I can't help but think it has much to do with cost vs lead bullets and associated training costs doubling. Has DocGKR tested any of the Lehigh loads yet?

[octagon]

I spoke with the Underwood rep at SHOT as I am interested in these projectiles and asked him about the sale of Lehigh to WC and if that would affect their future use. He mentioned that Underwood was the largest buyer of the bullets by orders of magnitude. He thought the use of the bullets would continue which I think is a good thing.

I have inquired a few times about FBI testing of the Lehigh projectiles in various loadings and have yet to see, hear or find any full tests done by anyone or published results. You are probably correct about cost being a big factor but if FBI test performance is used a round with no expansion gets hit hard enough in ranking to make it look like a failure since the FBI testing focuses on penetration and expansion not cutting, temporary stretch cavity or other factors. At least they do well for barriers in most cases. The FBI tests are good but they have stagnated in some regards and should be reconsidered for some modern ammunition, loadings,projectiles etc..

[DocGKR]

"I have inquired a few times about FBI testing of the Lehigh projectiles in various loadings and have yet to see, hear or find any full tests done by anyone or published results."

Hmmmm--yup, monolithic fluted projectiles have been tested.....many times, over many years, including Lehigh.


"You are probably correct about cost being a big factor but if FBI test performance is used a round with no expansion gets hit hard enough in ranking to make it look like a failure since the FBI testing focuses on penetration and expansion not cutting, temporary stretch cavity or other factors."

Cost is not an issue. TC is generally not a factor for handgun projectiles. Cutting is important and is assessed--ie. sharp leading edge.


"At least they do well for barriers in most cases."

Yup.


"The FBI tests are good but they have stagnated in some regards and should be reconsidered for some modern ammunition, loadings,projectiles etc.."

Can't say I agree with that, as the test battery is constantly analyzed and validate against real world shooting incidents.

[OlongJohnson]

DocGKR,

I figure this is as good a place as any to ask this. There's been discussion of 9mm Lehigh penetrating bear skulls adequately, and therefore displacing .45 Lehighs for such uses. One thought I've had is that a bigger hammer has a better chance of breaking something with a less than optimal impact. (I've hit lots of things with hammers intending to break them, and it seems to work that way.) For example, if it hits at an angle, it seems like the heavier projectile would have better odds of breaking through with less deflection rather than being deflected enough that it fails to penetrate. Is this a valid hypothesis?

A lot of the discussion has been along the lines that 9 and .45 are equivalent on target, so the shooting accuracy and # of chances in a limited time (potentially determined by rate of fire and the event timer rather than by magazine capacity) makes 9mm an obviously superior choice.

I'm thinking that if a less-than-centered shot from the .45 has a greater chance of effectiveness, it slants that parameter toward the .45. Shooting accuracy and # of chances still goes to 9mm, but on overall balance, maybe it's more of a wash between them?

Just wondering if you have any thoughts about the "bigger hammer breaks more better" hypothesis as applied to angled impact on bony structures.

(I'm well aware that bullets do weird things and any single interaction of flesh and metal can be an outlier, so there are no guarantees.)

[Thy.Will.Be.Done]

Hmmmm--yup, monolithic fluted projectiles have been tested.....many times, over many years, including Lehigh.

What was the overall summation of the Lehigh load? Where does it fall outside of the optimum to not be recommended?

Cost is not an issue. TC is generally not a factor for handgun projectiles. Cutting is important and is assessed--ie. sharp leading edge.

Is it possible that the FBI testing protocol cannot assess properly the effects of cutting from rotational forces of the bullet, ie. twisting? I mean I've read of several reports and pictures of impressive wounding and DRT results for these types of loads now that could be related to this effect which is escaping being proven in FBI type testing.

Can't say I agree with that, as the test battery is constantly analyzed and validate against real world shooting incidents.

What sort of shooting events are taking place with these monolithic bullets that have been documented to weigh against laboratory testing? It would seem there is little to none if these sorts of loads are not being issued in sufficient number to present data points.

My questions are unbolded.

[Velo Dog]

This is another test where the Xtreme penetrators just don't seem to do an impressive job penetrating.

40S&W 155 gr. FMJ penetrated much deeper than all-copper 357SIG and 357Mag.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCBfhDQz6zM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCBfhDQz6zM

Until I see some evidence of extreme penetration, I'm not believing any other spectacular claims.

[octagon]

I don't think the extreme penetrator was designed to penetrate more than FMJ. It is just the designation and design to penetrate deeper than Extreme Defender. Kind of like the difference between Critical Duty and Critical Defense rounds.

[5pins]

I don't think the extreme penetrator was designed to penetrate more than FMJ. It is just the designation and design to penetrate deeper than Extreme Defender. Kind of like the difference between Critical Duty and Critical Defense rounds.

Maybe so, but it's not how they promote it, or at least give the impression to the buyer.

What you get is a hunting or special application self defense bullet that creates a larger permanent wound cavity coupled with exceptionally deep penetration.

The flutes seem to create more drag at the cost of penetration.

[the Schwartz]

Maybe so, but it's not how they promote it, or at least give the impression to the buyer.


The flutes seem to create more drag at the cost of penetration.

You're right.

The resulting pressure (stagnation) at the bullet's nose is also what keeps the bullet oriented nose forward and ensures straight line penetration of the bullet. That quality may be what Lehigh/Underwood is referring to. The increased drag necessary to produce that pressure at the bullet's nose must necessarily result in somewhat reduced penetration depth.

[Velo Dog]

Maybe so, but it's not how they promote it, or at least give the impression to the buyer.

The bullets seem less magical if they're advertised as having

"All the expansion of a Full Metal Jacket, but without all of the penetration."

[5pins]

The bullets seem less magical if they're advertised as having

"All the expansion of a Full Metal Jacket, but without all of the penetration."

And twice the price. :D

[Clusterfrack]

What I want from XP is penetration through a bear skull without deflection. If it goes 12-18” further that’s plenty.
GJM

[Velo Dog]

This idea of a solid projectile with flat point and flutes has been around for a long time. We tested a .45 Auto 185 gr +P solid w/flat point and flutes for NSW back in the late 1980's or so.

Despite media and vendor hype to the contrary, these solid fluted bullets just punch a hole in tissue like any FMJ--there is no mystical hydraulic energy, magical pressure spikes, absurdly enlarged wound cavity, etc...

Nonetheless, this design can be a good projectile and offer decent terminal performance.

Post #225 of this thread

[Velo Dog]

From post #224


Projectile flutes = increased surface area with greater drag decreasing penetration depth; also fluted bullets typically have less mass than a similar sized non-fluted bullet which also decreases penetration depth.

The doctor is correct once again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cM2t8Lq3geU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cM2t8Lq3geU

[GJM]

I just bought 100 Underwood 147+P coated hard cast to try in the Mayhem barrels and comps in the G19 field pistols.

[Navin Johnson]

If the Lehigh are the deadliest bullets on the planet……what are the legal ramifications of using them for SD?

[5pins]

If the Lehigh are the deadliest bullets on the planet……what are the legal ramifications of using them for SD?


I'm sure a prosecutor would never bring that up in court.:rolleyes:

[GJM]

I'm sure a prosecutor would never bring that up in court.:rolleyes:

Even if they made that claim, we could bring in the Schwartz to debunk it!

[5pins]

I just bought 100 Underwood 147+P coated hard cast to try in the Mayhem barrels and comps in the G19 field pistols.

I look forward to your option of them.

[the Schwartz]

Even if they made that claim, we could bring in the Schwartz to debunk it!

My hourly rates are very affordable. :cool:

Especially if your butt is in the sling. ;)

[GJM]

As a possible deeper penetrating alternative to the Lehigh bullets, I ordered 100 rounds of the Underwood 147+P — FLAT NOSE HI-TEK COATED HARD CAST HUNTING AMMO.

They are less expensive than the penetrators and theoretically should penetrate better. I am only thru 40 rounds, shot in a Gen 4 and 5 19 with a Mayhem Syndicate barrel and comp. In both pistols, at 20 yards this ammo printed to the same POI as Gold Dot 124+P and the Lehigh penetrators. Accuracy was good. I tried to limp wrist, support hand in both pistols and couldn’t induce a stoppage. Same for my wife. This load shows promise.

[Joe Mac]

As a possible deeper penetrating alternative to the Lehigh bullets, I ordered 100 rounds of the Underwood 147+P — FLAT NOSE HI-TEK COATED HARD CAST HUNTING AMMO.

They are less expensive than the penetrators and theoretically should penetrate better. I am only thru 40 rounds, shot in a Gen 4 and 5 19 with a Mayhem Syndicate barrel and comp. In both pistols, at 20 yards this ammo printed to the same POI as Gold Dot 124+P and the Lehigh penetrators. Accuracy was good. I tried to limp wrist, support hand in both pistols and couldn’t induce a stoppage. Same for my wife. This load shows promise.

I have a stash of that stuff, and was happy with its accuracy and handling from G26 and G19. It's my 'hiking load' for the (rather rare) occasion I get out in the mountains.

I just checked and I only have chrono data from a G26:
51 degrees, clouds/drizzle
Shooting Chrony F1 @10’ from muzzle
High 1090
Low 1054
Avg 1070
ES 36
SD 12

[Clusterfrack]

For bear defense, maximum penetration depth does not seem to be the main requirement. All we need is a bullet that penetrates the skull without deflection, and goes far enough afterward to stop the animal.

9mm Lehigh/Underwood 115xp +p+ chronos at 1300fps from my P-07. I’m sticking with it.

[Joe Mac]

For bear defense, maximum penetration depth does not seem to be the main requirement. All we need is a bullet that penetrates the skull without deflection, and goes far enough afterward to stop the animal.

9mm Lehigh/Underwood 115xp +p+ chronos at 1300fps from my P-07. I’m sticking with it.

Yeah, for the smaller bears I'm likely to run into in western WA, I'd expect my usual 124+P Gold Dot or HST would do the job anyway. Likewise mountain lions.. Really, the Underwood hard cast was just an excuse to buy more ammo! :D

ETA: I have some of the Underwood 115+P XP, too. Might load a mag with either one if heading far outdoors.

[1Rangemaster]

I haven't shot as many as GJM, but have shot a few through G19/45 length barrels. Both the 115 and the 147 seemed close enough on a 15 yard B8. Stating the obvious perhaps, but one still has to hit the target, probably repeatedly. The encounters I've read about involving handguns and bears were very close-under 7 yards if I'm recalling correctly, with multiple hits required. May try a "5x5" drill: 5 rounds into 5 inches at 5 yards under 5 seconds. Most everyone here could pull that off I think.
I have a small supply of both; if forced to choose, I would gravitate toward the 147. But I wouldn't feel helpless with the 115 +P+s...

[GJM]

I haven't shot as many as GJM, but have shot a few through G19/45 length barrels. Both the 115 and the 147 seemed close enough on a 15 yard B8. Stating the obvious perhaps, but one still has to hit the target, probably repeatedly. The encounters I've read about involving handguns and bears were very close-under 7 yards if I'm recalling correctly, with multiple hits required. May try a "5x5" drill: 5 rounds into 5 inches at 5 yards under 5 seconds. Most everyone here could pull that off I think.
I have a small supply of both; if forced to choose, I would gravitate toward the 147. But I wouldn't feel helpless with the 115 +P+s...

You are being optimistic. A grizzly can supposedly reach 35 mph in a sprint. If my math is right, that works out to 17 yards a second. Five seconds may be generous!

What drew me to the Lehigh penetrator was reliability in a number of different platforms. Function is no doubt enhanced by the FMJ profile of this bullet. After reliability, the monolithic construction was next on my list.

Historically, flat point hard cast bullets at velocities above 1,000 fps, have penetrated and killed well in the hunting fields. The issue was those bullets didn't always function well in semi auto pistols. If they did function, I would bet on them to out penetrate the rounder profile Lehigh bullets. Based on my initial testing, I plan to buy a few hundred and continue reliability testing.

[1Rangemaster]

I will take your word on it and your math calculations sir-you have the experiences!
It is interesting that physics, etc. don't really change. I am a casual small game shooter, but the combination of big, heavy, lead flat nose rounds have been around since at least the 19th century, so something positive is going on there.
I'll look forward to your reports on testing-thank you again for your work.
Just tossing a thought on a drill: from a ready, 1 round 1second at 5, 2 rounds in 2 seconds at 7, all on a B8.

[5pins]

In my clear gel testing, the Underwood 147gr hard cast out penetrated the Lehigh XP by a decent amount.

[Joe Mac]

Just tossing a thought on a drill: from a ready, 1 round 1second at 5, 2 rounds in 2 seconds at 7, all on a B8.

While shopping the Action Target site, I happened to spot this reduced-size bear target before a friend was leaving for a few weeks of remote camping. We did something similar, working between 5 and 25 yards. The picture lent itself to a sense of urgency.. :)

GJM, what do you think of the scoring area on this one?

https://shop.actiontarget.com/content/asp-bb-alaska-state-parks-bear-target.asp

[Clusterfrack]

While shopping the Action Target site, I happened to spot this reduced-size bear target before a friend was leaving for a few weeks of remote camping. We did something similar, working between 5 and 25 yards. The picture lent itself to a sense of urgency.. :)

GJM, what do you think of the scoring area on this one?

https://shop.actiontarget.com/content/asp-bb-alaska-state-parks-bear-target.asp

Unlike GJM, I have thankfully not had to shoot a bear in self defense. But if I had to, I’d aim more precisely. I think the scoring region in that target is too generous. My understanding is that to hit the brain, aim between eyes and nose, below the blue “forehead” line in the second image.

https://d16ztny0u4c50x.cloudfront.net/images/asp-bb_n.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220917/b45debd94b20e743ba4ea876bf86cd62.jpeg

[Caballoflaco]

For bear defense, maximum penetration depth does not seem to be the main requirement. All we need is a bullet that penetrates the skull without deflection, and goes far enough afterward to stop the animal.

9mm Lehigh/Underwood 115xp +p+ chronos at 1300fps from my P-07. I’m sticking with it.

I’ll start by saying that I’ve never even seen a bear in the wild, so this is not my wheelhouse. Just from reading about bear attacks it seems that a whole lot of them are handled with shots to the bears body either because the head wasn’t available as a target or the shooter just shot at the big brown thing. I could see it being really difficult if not impossible to get a head shot on a bear that is in the process of mauling someone. Quartering shots may be necessary as well.

When Shoemaker killed the grizz with his 3953 it was a neck shot followed up by shots to whatever vital area he could hit due to the bear moving so quickly he was unable to target the head.


https://www.americanhunter.org/content/alaska-outfitter-defends-fishermen-from-raging-grizzly-with-9mm-pistol/


The bear was highly agitated and standing within 3 feet of my clients when I decided I could take a shot without endangering them.

My first shot was at its neck, and then it began growling and spinning toward the impact. I wanted to hit the head but the bear was moving so fast I simply began shooting each time I could hit a vital area. I hit it six times before it turned to run off, and my seventh shot was into its pelvis area as it ran. When it dropped within 6 feet of the last shot, I checked my pistol and found I had only a single round left in the chamber so decided against walking in and finishing it.

[Stone]

I am fortunate enough to spend a lot of time on my land in northern Mn. My place is pretty much in the middle of nowhere, and I wouldn't have it any other way. I can’t help but laugh at all the internet logic and speculation as people come up with conclusions on what they would do "if" they ever encountered a bear in the wild. That’s not a rub against anyone here or this thread but just what I have read over the years on different forums and blogs. Especially that they think they need wonder bullets and a mini gun to drop the bear... First off, killing the bear should not be the goal or mind set, all you need to do is change its mind when it believes it is not afraid of you.

My rule is that if the bear is looking at me, it is not afraid of me and that can turn into a bad situation. When I see a bear, all I should see is his ass end running in the opposite direction which has been my experience to date. We only have black bears up here and not grizzly's so my experience is only with them. I also have a bear den up on my north end where a big female hunkers down every winter. It’s pretty cool because she usually walks by my cabin with her cubs every year or so, I haven't physically seen her do this but the tracks tell the story. There are tracks and scat all over my land and around the cabin, I guess you could say we have an uneasy truce between us since they don't frack with my cabin, outhouse or woodshed. In total I have had 3 encounters and all of them with the bear running away from me when we were within visual distance of each other. With all that said I have come up with a few things that I believe, keep my body parts in the places I have grown accustomed to them being. Every time I go out exploring/hiking I practice my draw/grip at least 20 or more times as I am walking through the woods picking a random target like a tree to be on target on as I draw. I also have steel targets set up around the land (which is actually part of my carbine course) so I occasionally squeeze off a few rounds after a draw, dead trees are also fair game. This also keeps me frosty on my moving and shooting skills.

Not bragging, but this has given me an extremely fast draw with follow through, AKA, muscle memory, draw/on target/with zero thought put into it. The grouse help me put this into action, if you know what I mean. Honestly, the best thing to have is situational awareness, your ears and eyes should always be on high alert, kind of like how the deer live their lives constantly being chased by predators. I do carry my G17 Gen4, spare mag, along with my knife the whole time I am up there. If I am fairly close to the cabin then it’s usually just my knife. I carry my EDC ammo up there (FTB- 135g+p) as I feel a bonded round will work well for what I want to accomplish.

So in conclusion, if the bear is looking at me then he is standing his ground and a few rounds are coming his way with zero thought on my end, if he advances then I have another 30 rounds to help him change his mind. If he turns and runs then I move on, bears are crazy fast, don’t under estimate their speed. In all reality, bears will smell and hear you long before you ever see them and will usually do their best to avoid you. Situational awareness, a fast draw and a plan to shoot instantaneously if he is standing fast, will serve me well if the situation ever arises. Remember, you don’t need to kill the bear, just change his mind. Its funny, I am more concerned with the mosquitos and gnats than I am with the bears, wolves, and mountain lions. I got eaten alive this year, just a real bad year for them with all the rain we have had…

[GJM]

Unlike GJM, I have thankfully not had to shoot a bear in self defense. But if I had to, I’d aim more precisely. I think the scoring region in that target is too generous. My understanding is that to hit the brain, aim between eyes and nose, below the blue “forehead” line in the second image.

https://d16ztny0u4c50x.cloudfront.net/images/asp-bb_n.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220917/b45debd94b20e743ba4ea876bf86cd62.jpeg

The Gunsite bear target is a circle containing just the nose and eyes. That seems pretty good size wise, although you have to visualize the position of the brain from different angles.

My defensive handgun plan is, if conditions permit, one warning shot, since a bear that runs off is ideal. After the warning shot, it is one shot center of bear, on the theory that hurting the bear may cause the bear to discontinue the attack. Assuming shots one and two don’t work, remaining shots try to penetrate the brain.

Long guns, like the gauge with Brenneke slugs, or heavy caliber rifles give you more options.

[entropy]

94484



Sorry....couldn’t resist.

[the Schwartz]

94484



Sorry....couldn’t resist.

Awww, poor Pooh. You big meanie. ;)

[MickAK]

But if I had to, I’d aim more precisely
I don't know if that's the call to make.

The problem with preparing for bear on human interactions with a pistol aa opposed to human on human is there's a lot less data to draw from. We don't have the benefit of BBI's case records or all the other data. It's a lot of anecdotes and guessing.

What I've drawn from the anecdotes and guessing is bears often charge or continue to charge after getting hit once, rarely after getting hit multiple times. Bears don't know what guns are or getting shot is. They have to associate the noise and flash with the getting bit feeling to turn, hence why they snap at bullet wounds.

I'd aim, but precise would be a matter of distance and presentation. Trigger is getting pulled as soon as it can as often as it can and I'm moving laterally. I have a lot more faith in a bears ability to stop charging the noisy flashy painful thing than I do in my ability to hit the off button with a sidearm.


I’ll start by saying that I’ve never even seen a bear in the wild, so this is not my wheelhouse. Just from reading about bear attacks it seems that a whole lot of them are handled with shots to the bears body either because the head wasn’t available as a target or the shooter just shot at the big brown thing. I could see it being really difficult if not impossible to get a head shot on a bear that is in the process of mauling someone. Quartering shots may be necessary as well.

When Shoemaker killed the grizz with his 3953 it was a neck shot followed up by shots to whatever vital area he could hit due to the bear moving so quickly he was unable to target the head.


You gotta aim at something, heads as good as anything if you're actively being charged. After a hit brown blur is probably accurate.