Electric vehicles catch-all thread

[JRB]

What's the long term durability like for these EV's?

Like if we're talking about on a scale from "Yugo" to "1995 Toyota Camry"

If a Yugo was 0 and the 1995 Camry was a 10 on the reliability scale, I'd say the Teslas are a 4 to a 7 depending on the model. Earlier Tesla Roadsters and earlier P-series definitely have teething issues and are almost impossible to repair or support if something goes wrong. So really old stuff is a 4, with most being 6-7's and the Model 3's being solid 7's in most cases.
But I give those numbers with the context that many common and very reliable vehicles are 7 & 8's these days compared to a never-going-to-die neglect-resistant zombie like a 1995 Camry. For example, I'd say most 3.5L Ecoboost F150s are about a 8-8.5 on that scale.

As a brand, IMHO new Teslas seem to last about as well as a new Audi, with Model 3's seeming to last the longest/have the lowest rate of surprise violently expensive repairs. There was definitely a hiccup in QC/QA through COVID era production of Teslas, so get a 2018-2019 production date model or 2022+

But like an Audi, once it's out of warranty coverage it's a matter of when, not if, it has an expensive hiccup of some kind. I think 20-teen era Audis have more $3-6k problems but fewer $20k+ problems than comparable year Teslas out of warranty. Audis also benefit from a fairly robust third-party repair shop network and good parts availability if you want to keep one alive.
If you have problems with a Tesla, it goes to Tesla and there's virtually no source for replacement Tesla parts and very little DIY community or support beyond brake jobs and wheel changes, really.

Also unlike the Audi, if you have a 2015 Tesla and buy a 2024 Tesla, you'll likely be annoyed by the lack of genuine improvement in the interior/infotainment/etc. A car buddy of mine did just that - selling an older Tesla 2014ish P85D for a newer P100 (wasn't a plaid but the model below it) and he wished he'd just kept the older one and paid for some kind of extended warranty & update package from Tesla. But I don't know the specifics of that or if such a thing is available for all older Teslas.


Overall, I think there's a lot of use cases where Teslas make sense for some folks. It doesn't make sense for me yet and I don't see things getting so awful that an EV option will beat my quasi-fleet of paid off 90's/00's shitboxes that I can drive anywhere and easily fix myself for comparably dirt cheap.

Another consideration - I met a guy with a financed Tesla Plaid, and he bemoaned the insurance costs almost matching his car payment.
So on any EV performance models especially, look up insurance cost estimates first and factor that in before buying.

[Malamute]

Overall, I think there's a lot of use cases where Teslas make sense for some folks. It doesn't make sense for me yet and I don't see things getting so awful that an EV option will beat my quasi-fleet of paid off 90's/00's shitboxes that I can drive anywhere and easily fix myself for comparably dirt cheap.

Another consideration - I met a guy with a financed Tesla Plaid, and he bemoaned the insurance costs almost matching his car payment.
So on any EV performance models especially, look up insurance cost estimates first and factor that in before buying.

Interesting to see how you stated that. Can relate, just never saw it in exactly those descriptive terms.

Insurance can in fact be a killer in some cases.

[camel]

Interesting to see how you stated that. Can relate, just never saw it in exactly those descriptive terms.

Insurance can in fact be a killer in some cases.

I know in my area. That if your Tesla gets hit it’s pretty much a total loss for anything other than a fender bender. And even that can depending on where it is hit rack up thousands in repairs. People like their 500 dollar deductible. But do not realize what the insurance is going to pay to recoup that.

[JRB]

I know in my area. That if your Tesla gets hit it’s pretty much a total loss for anything other than a fender bender. And even that can depending on where it is hit rack up thousands in repairs. People like their 500 dollar deductible. But do not realize what the insurance is going to pay to recoup that.

That's everywhere - Teslas basically don't survive any sort of impact or accident at all. If the same hit would do more than leave paint on the bumper of a 1979 Suburban, it's going to total a Tesla every time.
Plus the risk of an 'infinite sparkler' fire after a collision makes firefighters, paramedics, LEOs, and tow truck drivers all very, very nervous.

When Teslas do get repaired, it's always a ton of money because Tesla will not ship repair parts to any shop that isn't a Tesla 'certified' shop. Getting those certs/creds with Tesla is expensive, bodywork and systems repair in those cars is horrendously expensive, and generally there's no 'repairing' it's getting the car straight again and replacing every other piece including wiring. So it's really, really, really expensive.

[camel]

That's everywhere - Teslas basically don't survive any sort of impact or accident at all. If the same hit would do more than leave paint on the bumper of a 1979 Suburban, it's going to total a Tesla every time.
Plus the risk of an 'infinite sparkler' fire after a collision makes firefighters, paramedics, LEOs, and tow truck drivers all very, very nervous.

When Teslas do get repaired, it's always a ton of money because Tesla will not ship repair parts to any shop that isn't a Tesla 'certified' shop. Getting those certs/creds with Tesla is expensive, bodywork and systems repair in those cars is horrendously expensive, and generally there's no 'repairing' it's getting the car straight again and replacing every other piece including wiring. So it's really, really, really expensive.

I don’t miss being a tow truck driver because of that infinite sparkler possibility. Any electric car or hybrid.

[JRB]

I don’t miss being a tow truck driver because of that infinite sparkler possibility.

Can't hardly blame you - and that's on top of it already being a tough and risky job.

I also know lots of tow companies won't tow a collision damaged EV at all unless it's for a city/PD contract callout, or they will add an exorbitant upcharge for any collision damaged EV. Given the risks involved for the driver and the truck I can't blame them.

[camel]

Can't hardly blame you - and that's on top of it already being a tough and risky job.

I also know lots of tow companies won't tow a collision damaged EV at all unless it's for a city/PD contract callout, or they will add an exorbitant upcharge for any collision damaged EV. Given the risks involved for the driver and the truck I can't blame them.

Yea. Pretty much. When you take a look at what a tow truck costs. Plus the person. You better pay me if I was still doing that.

[Navin Johnson]

Love the Audi comparison. I service a number of car dealerships for some products and no one at an Audi dealership will own an Audi that is out of warranty.

And for that matter, most Ford dealers will tell you 5.0 in a F150 (not officially of course)

[0ddl0t]

What's the long term durability like for these EV's?

Like if we're talking about on a scale from "Yugo" to "1995 Toyota Camry"

It varies dramatically from make to make and even from model or year of the same make, but as a whole EVs are still less reliable than average. Probably more like a 1995 Chevy Corsica than Camry or Yugo...

If you can get by with 75 miles of range and don't mind glacial recharge times, the 2012-2014 Toyota Rav4 EV was very reliable*, but they only made ~2500 and afaik all were sold in California. *Tesla supplied motors did have a tendency to whine as they aged and were often replaced under warranty even though they worked fine. Tesla had the same whine in the model S and eventually fixed the issue.

Toyota's new BZ4x had serious problems with its rollout (wheels falling off is never good), but I expect it to be decent long term.

I'd avoid the 2011-2012 Leaf unless you are willing to drop $10k to upgrade/rebuild to newer/larger batteries. Even then, I wouldn't recommend it if you live in a hot climate. 2013+ were a bit more heat tolerant. Range might be as little as 30 miles on original batteries but over 150-200 miles on new/upgraded batteries. 2018+ had 150-200+ miles of range and have finally achieved average car reliability.

The Mitsubishi i-miev is disposable - avoid unless you want a largely unsupported project.

GM's EVs (bolt, hummer) are still problematic.

Ford's lightning is better, but still less reliable than the average truck. The Mach-E has been about as reliable as the average domestic suv.


Tesla ranges from a little below average to a fair bit above average depending on the model and year. I doubt any other EV maker has as many 200,000+ mile EVs on the road today, but build quality can be spotty...

Rivian's reliability has been disappointing as are their collision repair costs (minor dents can cost $40,000 to repair to like new).

Kia & Hyundai tend to be a bit under average reliability, especially if you factor the cost to repair minor collisions.

[camel]

It varies dramatically from make to make and even from model or year of the same make, but as a whole EVs are still less reliable than average. Probably more like a 1995 Chevy Corsica than Camry or Yugo...

If you can get by with 75 miles of range and don't mind glacial recharge times, the 2012-2014 Toyota Rav4 EV was very reliable*, but they only made ~2500 and afaik all were sold in California. *Tesla supplied motors did have a tendency to whine as they aged and were often replaced under warranty even though they worked fine. Tesla had the same whine in the model S and eventually fixed the issue.

Toyota's new BZ4x had serious problems with its rollout (wheels falling off is never good), but I expect it to be decent long term.

I'd avoid the 2011-2012 Leaf unless you are willing to drop $10k to upgrade/rebuild to newer/larger batteries. Even then, I wouldn't recommend it if you live in a hot climate. 2013+ were a bit more heat tolerant. Range might be as little as 30 miles on original batteries but over 150-200 miles on new/upgraded batteries. 2018+ had 150-200+ miles of range and have finally achieved average car reliability.

The Mitsubishi i-miev is disposable - avoid unless you want a largely unsupported project.

GM's EVs (bolt, hummer) are still problematic.

Ford's lightning is better, but still less reliable than the average truck. The Mach-E has been about as reliable as the average domestic suv.


Tesla ranges from a little below average to a fair bit above average depending on the model and year. I doubt any other EV maker has as many 200,000+ mile EVs on the road today, but build quality can be spotty...

Rivian's reliability has been disappointing as are their collision repair costs (minor dents can cost $40,000 to repair to like new).

Kia & Hyundai tend to be a bit under average reliability, especially if you factor the cost to repair minor collisions.

That’s a solid assessment.