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  1. #1
    Desert Rat
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    New Mexico

    You won't have time to "X"...

    How many times have you heard that defensive shootings happen so fast you won't have time to do anything except react?
    Usually followed by a dissertation on why night sights, lasers, aimed fire practice are all a waste of time and all you need to be able to do is hit a dirt berm at 3ft. and you're good to go.

    Aaaarrrrgggghhhhh!!!!!

    Bad guys don't just appear out of thin air.
    "He asked me for a cigarette and the next thing I know, he robbed me!"
    No...
    He was robbing you when he asked for the cigarette. It's just your situational awareness and your ability to manage the initial contact sucked.

    The better you are at seeing trouble coming and staying ahead of or at least even with the bad guys escalation the more skill and tactics come into play.
    People who think that the only thing they'll be able to do is react... are probably right.
    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

  2. #2
    Agreed.

    In a related argument, I don't know crap about how humans react under stress and I've never been in a fight for my life, but I think the attitude that rational thought and the ability to actively problem solve go completely out the window when you get violently attacked isn't true for all people confronted with such behavior. Now they certainly may be diminished, but I'm just not willing to assume I'll suddenly forget how to use my slide stop or assume a proper firing grip or something under stress even though I've performed like a thousand reloads where every time I've swiped the slide stop as soon as the mag is seated and in the past 6 months or so only blown my firing grip 2-3 times in practice.

    Like that line in a Magpul DVD. "How will you know your grip is 60/40 in a gunfight?" Uh, because I've trained that way every single time for the past 2 years.

    If someone puts a gun in my face and I suddenly blubber like a fish out of water, I will happily change my mind and eat crow so fast it'll still be flapping its wings in my stomach. Til then I continue in blissful skepticism.

  3. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    North Georgia
    I've always seen them coming but I can appreciate how they could be on you in a blink; seemingly out of nowhere too. Hence all the training. It might not all go one way. OTOH, even when you have a moment to realize something is developing, it still develops really quickly. "Ah had to think fast. Faster than the squirrel."
    "There's a lot of middle between them, but not much middle ground." - Haraise

  4. #4
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    North Georgia
    Quote Originally Posted by DonovanM View Post
    Agreed.

    I think the attitude that rational thought and the ability to actively problem solve go completely out the window when you get violently attacked isn't true for all people confronted with such behavior. Now they certainly may be diminished, but I'm just not willing to assume I'll suddenly forget how to use my slide stop or assume a proper firing grip or something under stress even though I've performed like a thousand reloads where every time I've swiped the slide stop as soon as the mag is seated and in the past 6 months or so only blown my firing grip 2-3 times in practice.
    .
    It seems some folks have the panic gene and they go to mush under this sort of pressure. But some don't seem to have that gene at all. So that being suddenly aware of being stalked by a handful of bad guys or realizing your car is completely out of your control on a busy interstate trigger very similiar dreamlike states of seeing, thinking, reacting, forgetting nothing, thinking of solutions, executing solutions you didn't have to "think" about - all in seconds. So I think your quite right. And IMO, the fact you believe that, predisposes you to make that so.

    "Stand UP!" "Hook UP!" triggered mind numbing fear in me. Once the shuffling to the door started, that dream state kicked in and it was nothing.
    Last edited by JHC; 02-09-2012 at 07:05 PM.
    "There's a lot of middle between them, but not much middle ground." - Haraise

  5. #5
    Hardernhellium
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Nebraska
    Yep, situational awareness is your friend.
    In a sort of ghastly simplicity we remove the organ and demand the function. We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful. ― C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man

  6. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Hotel Carlton
    From a 5 year analysis of The Armed Citizen (482 incidents) I did years ago:

    Incidents rarely occurred in reaction time (i.e., second increments). Most commonly, criminals acted in a shark-like fashion, slowly circling and alerting their intended victims. The defender(s) then had time to access even weapons that were stored in other rooms and bring them to bear.

    3) Frequently, the defenders were aware that something was amiss before the action started and then placed themselves in position to access their weapons. Awareness of the surroundings appears to be a key element of successful defense.
    Pistols - Popular among handgun-owners, pistols are defined by their built-in barrel and short stock. --Rolling Stone

  7. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Columbia SC
    Only time I had a bad time was when a guy came running in to our position after dark. It took me freaking forever to chamber a round and put a Surefire in his eyes. But I got it done and he lived. My feelings of being slow were only apparent to me. If you train, wargame, mentally and physically rehearse, (IMHO) you tilt the odds in your favor in case of conflict.

    Several years before, I had a pair of hoods cruise me and two blissninnies I was with. When I looked back, they had both turned around and were stalking back towards us. They got fairly close when I generated a sharp metallic click as I turned towards them. They had business elsewhere, back in their original direction of travel. Blissninnies never noticed.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Al T. View Post
    Several years before, I had a pair of hoods cruise me and two blissninnies I was with. When I looked back, they had both turned around and were stalking back towards us. They got fairly close when I generated a sharp metallic click as I turned towards them. They had business elsewhere, back in their original direction of travel. Blissninnies never noticed.
    [snork] I have GOT to find a way to use that in the next class I teach. That's a fantastic term, and absurdly apt.

  9. #9
    Hardernhellium
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Nebraska
    This guy has it down.
    In a sort of ghastly simplicity we remove the organ and demand the function. We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful. ― C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man

  10. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Columbia SC
    JTH, glad to be of service...

    Tim, car washes worry me. Lots of channelization and distractions if you are washing your ride manually. Years ago a buddy was braced in a car wash, turned out OK by a measure of good luck.

    Back on topic:

    One of the reasons we train and practice is to get to the point of "unconscious competence" with core skills. As Jim Cirillo wrote in his book, in his first gunfight, he was astounded to see his revolver firing seemingly by it self. Under stress, he had internalized the steps needed to get that life saving tool up and running with out much conscious thought. IMHO, that's where I'd like to be when it comes to steering out of a skid, taking a fall, reacting to a punch or clearing a malfunction.

 

 

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