The Third Rule versus LEM Trigger

[rdtompki]

"Keep your finger off the trigger until the sights are on the target"
I've been shooting my P2000 V2 during our steel challenge practices to improve my trigger management (with what I would consider great success). I'm coming back during press-out and well into the second "stage" as the sights settle on the target. When transitioning targets I'm doing similar during the transition.

This gun is primarily for HD/SD and I'm a bit concerned that my approach to trigger management is inappropriate for self defense. I'm not necessarily concerned with the safety aspect; it seems to me this is the nature of the LEM design. I live in California and even self defense use of a handgun will result in a civil suit; we Californians have no protection in that regard. Now, this is a very, very unlikely scenario, but I thought I would query others who might be using a similar trigger for SD. Keeping my finger off the trigger until I have a sight picture would waste precious time and almost certainly affect accuracy.

[SLG]

The rule is as you stated at the beginning. "Sights are on the target." Not "sight picture." Two different things, that occur at two different times during the correctly executed draw.

[psalms144.1]

That's a different, and much more stringent, version of Rule 3 than I've been taught. "Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot," or, for those who hang out around lawyers a lot "keep your finger off the trigger until you've made the conscious decision to fire."

You are correct, keeping your finger in register on the frame or slide of the pistol until your sights are aligned is definitely going to be A LOT slower.

I'd be interested in hearing other instructors' takes on this one...

[GJM]

That LEM thingee isn't going to work too well, if you take your finger off the trigger during each transition.

[rdtompki]

That LEM thingee isn't going to work too well, if you take your finger off the trigger during each transition.

That's for sure. I know LEM isn't in widespread LE use, but I wonder how LE instructors would teach that trigger. I did try the V1 and liked it, but in California you don't want to be changing triggers in an SD gun.

[YVK]

The rule is as you stated at the beginning. "Sights are on the target." Not "sight picture." Two different things, that occur at two different times during the correctly executed draw.

That. Maybe somebody could find Ernest's video on DA shot execution, he talks about it too in passing.

[HCM]

That's a different, and much more stringent, version of Rule 3 than I've been taught. "Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot," or, for those who hang out around lawyers a lot "keep your finger off the trigger until you've made the conscious decision to fire."

You are correct, keeping your finger in register on the frame or slide of the pistol until your sights are aligned is definitely going to be A LOT slower.

I'd be interested in hearing other instructors' takes on this one...

This ^^^^.

What if I draw to take a "don't shoot yet" person at gun point? My sights are on target but I don't want my finger on the trigger unless / until I decide to shoot.

[Drang]

IMHO, if we tried to re-write the rules of gun safety (3 or 4, whichever) to meet every mechanical variation and "what if?", we'd all be paralyzed.

[Dagga Boy]

Here we go again.....first. LAW ENFORCEMENT modification.....it's optimized for dealing with people you are trying to take prisoner. Putting the thing into steel challenge type stuff is already outside its realm of what it's designed for.

With that said...for pure shooting efficiency, the micro press out thing GJM discussed before works well with the LEM for pure shooting.

Now...take this for what its worth, as Todd and I argued about this a lot. I have had numerous situations change in the middle of a trigger press on actual humans. Until you know first hand how time slows down, it is hard to explain. I also found that in a majority of cases when I was on a suspect, decision to shoot made and starting my press....they were moving and I was having to work a sight track into the equation. Essentially.....there is a ton of stuff going on and I would discount anything that takes a lot of "timing" to get right. I found that sights on, tracking and then pressing worked well to keep me out of several shootings that could have been iffy due to the change in circumstance. If I was clearing a compound in a hostile country for the US military....might not be as concerned as I was as a cop in the United States working in the 9th Circuit area to REALLY getting things right.

So....for steel challenge...you should probably use something else. If you don't care about winning...then maybe try a sort of compromise that the micro press out thing seems to work well with the LEM. For actual people...I try to stay in the evaluation phase as long as possible and ideally would want sights aligned (even if I cannot see them...eg. Retention shooting) before I press, but that is just me.

[YVK]

Nothing that I see in this^ post reads contradictory to everything above. If I am in the evaluation phase I am not shooting, I am off the trigger. If I decided to shoot, I am on the trigger as soon as I have referenced my gun on target. If I am shooting a mover and I don't have said reference, I am off the trigger. For me this is all largely theoretical but that's how I practice.