Does it really matter who you take to the dance?

[Unobtanium]

I have a lot of friends who have served in the military, and are currently active in SWAT, SOCOM, FBI, etc. They are involved in OIS's, taking down meth labs, and had to mix lead with meat in the sandbox, South America, and other places. Every single one of them looks at me like a parent looks at a child who says "So I should get my college degree in a few weeks, since it's only 128 hours, right?" when I begin talking about Fusion, TBBC, MK318, etc. and debating the merits of barrier blind and expanding vs. fragmenting, etc. Their stance, to a man, has been "Green tip is fine, use P for Plenty, put them where they belong, and it's GOING TO WORK. If you need to engage someone in a car...P for Plenty. Do your job and stop worrying about some magic bullet."

I feel rather stupid saying "but I read on M4C, PF, LF, etc...." when I'm talking to a Sgt. Major from Delta, or a Ranger with 10 years of experience putting America's enemies in the sand and training indigenous forces, etc.

What's the opinion, here? Is "Green tip fine...use P for Plenty, stop the mental masturbation and shoot more!" really the way to go out in the real world, or is some "uber bullet" going to be "the thing that saves me" in that home invasion/confronting a poacher/etc?

I know there are a lot of "been there, done that" types on this board with very legitimate and pertinent real-world experience. What's your take?

I'm beginning to wonder if I'm wasting money buying something other than M855 or M193 and stacking it deep. Seems every time I begin talking about 70gr TSX and hunting bullets, I get half a dozen texts full of deer and 300# hogs with titles like "Wolf 55gr worked fine for me last night/yesterday morning..."

[LittleLebowski]

I have a buddy in that category. We went to a Vickers adv handgun class together and his reaction to the gun-nerdery was the same. That being said, it's harmless and if people get out and shoot more, GOOD.

Here is the excerpt on this topic from his class review:

Proving again a wealth of information, Larry was for some reason flooded with a perfect storm of "what if?" questions during the night fire such as which laser site is recommended, which one breaks, which grip methods is best, the do's and don'ts of Surefire gripping and then a thousand tech questions I had never even heard of on things I didn't even know existed.

Larry punched out answers for every single one just as fast as they came. After ten minutes I admitted to being a little lost on all the new toys coming out because I had been using the same M4, SR-25 and Glock 19 in Iraq for four years and hadn't been keeping up with the latest so was just standing in the background dumbfounded as Larry responded with answers like:

"Yes. No. 5.56. You want to stay away from that type. Here are all the negatives and positives about hand held vs. mounted. 7.777777777.89, don't cross the streams. Your dad will probably accept your alternative life choices eventually, just give him time."

[RJ]

LL - I enjoyed reading that. ^^^. Interesting and well written. My stepson is USMC, and I can hear him in that class review.

[Chuck Haggard]

I pretty much feel that way as well after seeing the aftermath of a lot of people shot.

I used to be such a bullet nerd that I once swapped 9mm +p ammo in my carry gun because an extra 75fps. True story.

I kept up on all of the new stuff, gear, bullets, training, etc. Now I catch myself sometimes doing stuff like getting into a hurry and leaving the range with whatever is in the gun. I drove back from my Racine class with my range G17 loaded with 124gr Lawman, backed up by two mags of the same ammo, and my pocket snub full of 158gr RNL. Way back when if I had done that I would have pulled over somewhere in order to swap out guns and/or ammo, now I don't lose sleep over shit like that.

I've seen people seriously shot up with rounds such as 9mm ball and M193. Especially with open air shots and rifle rounds I've not even worried about lack of "stopping power".

However, comma, buying the best ammo you can buy on the front end can and does matter. An example would be when my old job swapped from the 9mm Hydrashok to the 124gr +P Gold Dot. Better bullets are better, and they are certainly more consistent.

The .mil guys don't have to worry about getting sued, they get to use "P" for plenty and no one says a word about it (try that in an OIS....), and they rarely need to do things like shoot a bad guy in a car while not hitting hostages with a deflected bullet.

[okie john]

The .mil guys don't have to worry about getting sued, they get to use "P" for plenty and no one says a word about it (try that in an OIS....), and they rarely need to do things like shoot a bad guy in a car while not hitting hostages with a deflected bullet.

They also have a lot of other things to think about, like getting wounded guys out of harm's way, making sure everyone has enough water, watching for snipers, keeping radio traffic to a minimum, not getting lost, etc.

But the differences are that they rarely have any choice in these matters and they have huge ammo budgets. They master what they have and use it to its fullest potential. That's where the "P for plenty" comes from.


Okie John

[Dave J]

For civilian self defense purposes, I'd tend to agree with your friends. Not that there's anything wrong with having quality ammo, and I do have a few mags of Gold Dot loaded up, but I wouldn't lose any sleep if all I had was M193.

For hunting, I'll stick to premium bullets, because I want a clean kill on the first shot, and the engagement range is typically further out. For Sumdood at 7 yards, if I'm fortunate enough to have my hands on a rifle, I'm not worried about it.

[NETim]

I pretty much feel that way as well after seeing the aftermath of a lot of people shot.

I used to be such a bullet nerd that I once swapped 9mm +p ammo in my carry gun because an extra 75fps. True story.

I kept up on all of the new stuff, gear, bullets, training, etc. Now I catch myself sometimes doing stuff like getting into a hurry and leaving the range with whatever is in the gun. I drove back from my Racine class with my range G17 loaded with 124gr Lawman, backed up by two mags of the same ammo, and my pocket snub full of 158gr RNL. Way back when if I had down that I would have pulled over somewhere in order to swap out guns and/or ammo, now I don't lose sleep over shit like that.

However, comma, buying the best ammo you can buy on the front end can and does matter. An example would be when my old job swapped from the 9mm Hydrashok to the 124gr +P Gold Dot. Better bullets are better, and they are certainly more consistent.

The .mil guys don't have to worry about getting sued, they get to use "P" for plenty and no one says a word about it (try that in an OIS....), and they rarely need to do things like shoot a bad guy in a car while not hitting hostages with a deflected bullet.

I have been known to leave the range with mags stuffed full of my practice 200 grain SWC loads that rumble along at a sedate 830 FPS. First choice is Gold Dots/HST's naturally.

[nycnoob]

As always, don't get too wrapped in the nuances of ammunition terminal performance. Spend your time and money on developing a warrior mindset, training, practice, and more training.

-DocGKR

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....0-ACP-vs-38-Sp

[Super77]

On duty you have legal protections that you don't have as a civilian and, at least in a military setting, a few of your buddies around for support. For self defense I want a load that will do what it needs to stop a threat while minimizing the chances of hitting something other than the intended target. Furthermore in a duty setting what load you carry is probably prescribed by unit leadership. So in a duty setting maybe it doesn't matter but for personal use I would choose the best load possible for self-defense use.

[Jeep]

P for Plenty. Do your job and stop worrying about some magic bullet."

There is some good common sense here--but don't take it too far. P = Plenty is an old airborne riff on the formulas contained on the "det" cards they used to issue to some non-engineers. The formulas on how much explosives to use always started with "P" (for pounds of the given explosive) = some mathematical formula depending on what you were trying to blow up.

A lot of old-time guys not much given to math just shrugged and said "P=Plenty." In other words, with enough explosives you didn't have to worry about formulas. Being young and very dumb at the time, I thought that was a great idea. Until I saw what happened when P = far too much explosives. Luckily no one was killed or seriously hurt but it turned out that there was a really good reasons why those boring engineers favored doing precise calculations.

And I think that lesson carries over here. Use what you have, but if you put some green tips into a home invader and find out that they also penetrated your wall and the wall of your neighbor, neither you nor he is going to be real happy. Residential neighborhoods don't mix well with P = Plenty.

So, as for ammo, I think it makes sense to use what is on Doc's list--and once you have that, don't worry about which is marginally better. As for hunting, find a good round for each type you do, and stick with it.

Finally, as for gear, of course those guys are correct. But just as of course, gun guys tend to be interested in how things work and how things can be improved. That being the case it is natural to always be experimenting. However, experimenting is different from being a follower of fashion. Getting the latest and most fashionable "tactical" gear is kind of silly (though in reality it probably won't hurt anything either).

Anyway, for what they are worth, those are my thoughts.