Short answer, yes...Originally Posted by taadski
I will even go so far as to use my non-dominant hand when determining what works well for me with a new pistol type. It's less "educated" as my dominant hand and I find it harder to compensate for something and I get a more realistic "feel" for grip size and finger placement.
How can one worry after recoil, if one does not first actuate the trigger? If one is actuating the trigger, why not do it in the most effective manner to reduce liability (in not hitting non-targets) and accomplish goals (strike the target in an intended and desirable manner)?
It's a given that there will be some compromise for most; it is something I've worked with for half of my professional life. But to prioritize recoil-control over trigger-operation seems unusual given the causal relationship in-play.
Extra to add: I would ask, "what is the perfect grip?" Is it a particular alignment and enwrapment of the hands about the weapon, requiring particular indexing and relativity? Alternatively, is it the grip that allows for the best empirically measurable and repeatable affects at the terminal; as considered by predilections of (split) time(s), precision, and accuracy?
Last edited by runcible; 01-08-2016 at 12:27 PM.
I think something got lost in the pixels.
I'm on board with you. In fact, I had an earlier post in this thread to that effect, remarking on how trigger control ought be more important than recoil control in firearms instruction.
The moral of my most recent post was that I think I have seen some evidence that I shoot better 2-handed with the pad and 1-handed with the first joint. The rest of the post was just me trying to explain how I was able to make sense out of how that could be true.
Here's my attempt at trying to making my point clearer and shorter:
Say a hypothetical person shoots 2-handed just as accurately using the tip as they do with the first joint, however using the first joint forces an "h-grip" as Mr. White coined and causes them to suffer in recoil control. It would seem pretty obvious to me that, barring other circumstances, they should shoot with the tip. Now, say that same person shoots way more accurately 1-handed with the first joint than the tip, with insignificant variance in speed/recoil control. Some may disagree, but I'd say it makes sense for them to shoot with the first joint when shooting 1-handed, barring other circumstances.
The 2-handed and 1-handed shooting scenarios are different problems with different variables and different tradeoffs. There are circumstances that can make the above story true for someone. I think there is some value to having one technique for both scenarios, but that value may get outweighed by other values.
For me personally, and speaking from a defense perspective, I don't want different trigger placement for 2 hand, one hand, left hand, right hand, etc. I don't think (insert personal opinion only) the juice is worth the potential squeeze. I want as much consistency as possible in my gun handling so I can focus on problem solving.
I will use the analogy of different finger placement on TDA guns. Some folks claim, and no doubt it's probably the truth, they shoot better with different placement on SA than DA. But, I'm unaware of any instructor with experience in teaching DA/SA advocating repositioning the finger mid stream. It's just one more thing to remember and execute under stress.
I agree with LSP552. We were typing at the same time apparently.
Not to dog pile, but remember, the goal of all of this at the end of the day is to have your skills at as much of a pre-conscious level as possible. I think this is true from a defensive standpoint, a competitive shooting standpoint, and everything in between, frankly. I'd personally have concerns over having multiple trigger finger positions. But perhaps even more so, I'd have concerns having to change your grip going from one to the other.
The DA/SA analogy is a good one. I find that there sometimes needs to be a compromise for some shooters between where they best press the DA and where they best press the SA. The concept of repositioning the finger in between shots doesn't hold water, IMO. And I feel the same way about the prospect of having to re-adjust one's grip to shoot one-handed.
And your pixels read just fine, btw.
dove said basically what I was going to say.
I absolutely would prioritize being able to fire accurate individual shots, never mind the time, over better recoil control/sight movement with poor accuracy. That's how the h-grip comes into being - small hand using large gun, that's frequently what happens in order to be able to shoot accurately. (BTW I did not coin the term 'h-grip' and I don't know who did.)
I can shoot accurately with better geometry and worse leverage using the tip of my finger. I can shoot accurately with worse geometry and better leverage using the first joint of my finger. But I prefer the way the gun moves when gripping the gun in a way that doesn't allow me to get the first joint on the trigger.
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I follow, dude! I apologize if my tone was too aggressive; I didn't follow the afore transition.
It is an interesting question, as you just presented it. Stepping back from the engagement of the trigger, my hand placement is confirmed or denied by where/how my trigger finger comes to rest as the pistol clears the holster. That is built from repetitions to that particular indexing. At that point, it's non-diagnostic; the choice to draw has been made, whether to retention/ready/presentation, but there is no divergence in there for drawing in preparation for a different trigger index. Mind you, this is referential to just myself.
Having two hands on the gun allows us to get away with quite a bit by the trigger finger; having only one hand on the gun calls for us to consider the minutiae quite a bit more.
Before I can really consider running different finger/trigger indexes, I'd have to consider asserting divergent grips before the drawstroke has even begun, and at what point I'd choose and commit to either.
I agree with LSP552. We were typing at the same time apparently.
Not to dog pile, but remember, the goal of all of this at the end of the day is to have your skills at as much of a pre-conscious level as possible. I think this is true from a defensive standpoint, a competitive shooting standpoint, and everything in between, frankly. I'd personally have concerns over having multiple trigger finger positions. But perhaps even more so, I'd have concerns having to change your grip going from one to the other.
The DA/SA analogy is a good one. I find that there sometimes needs to be a compromise for some shooters between where they best press the DA and where they best press the SA. The concept of repositioning the finger in between shots doesn't hold water, IMO. And I feel the same way about the prospect of having to re-adjust one's grip to shoot one-handed.
And your pixels read just fine, btw.
Agreed re the value in having one technique for both scenarios. That said, I don't think anything in shooting has infinite value and I think there can always be circumstances that cause anything with value to get outweighed. I think the shooting community culturally has the appearance of assigning infinite value to too many things. For example, getting a high grip to reduce recoil control.
I think the DA/SA thing is really another boat from the 1-hand 2-hand thing: talking about making precise changes immediately after your first shot and before your second is really worlds away from talking about how one chooses to shoot one-handed vs two-handed. For example, many of us don't bat an eye when people choose to align the sights at a .45 degree angle for one-handed shooting. Is that not breaking all the hand-eye coordination? All the consistency we build with 2-handed sight pictures? In any event, yea, the DA/SA situation is similar, insofar as there is some value to doing it different and some value towards doing it the same. Which way it works out is going to depend on the individual, but I think the case for doing it the same is even stronger there.
The feeling of shooting one-handed vs. two-handed is so different that I have a hard time buying that the value of keeping techniques exceedingly similar is particularly high. However, let's forget strong-handed shooting for a minute and go back to what nyeti said that originally sparked my post: using the first-joint (or maximally sinking) only when shooting weak-handed. For me, I think it feels more natural and automatic to sink fully when shooting left handed, and it feels much more automatic to use the pad when shooting two-handed. So, trying to engrain "the same" technique would require me breaking pre-conscious tendencies. The bottom line is, there's very little "the same" about shooting weak-hand only. The weak hand is pre-consciously accustomed to a support-hand grip, yet I don't think anyone would argue we should modify weak-hand shooting grips to be more like support-hand grips. The tradeoff just doesn't pay out there.
Going back to the DA/SA case, it's actually the case that the DA and SA triggers have different trigger reaches, so it could conceivably be the case that it is natural and automatic for someone to use two different positions, especially if they use the flip-and-press method where their finger comes off the trigger between shots. (Albeit, in this case I imagine using the tip for DA and sinking for SA is what would be natural...i.e. opposite the argument, but whatever, that's irrelevant to the point.)
(It goes without saying that the above is not intended to come off as an attack or retaliation, and I definitely don't take anything about this conversation personally.)
Last edited by GRV; 01-08-2016 at 03:13 PM. Reason: quote
No worries, all good here
What you're getting at is really a great argument for why the techniques should be the same for 2-handed and strong-handed shooting. When you draw, you may be going to either. (Weak handed is a different story.)
Let me make the situation a bit harder, because the example scenario I gave could have been better:
Forget recoil control and say a hypothetical person shoots more accurately two-handed with the pad than the first joint. Say the same person shoots much more accurately and precisely one-handed with the first joint than with the pad. I am extremely confident such a person could exist and can back that up with numbers. I'd have a very hard time telling that person not to use two techniques, because IMO the shot placement is extremely high value whereas muscle memory can be learned.
Personally, I'm trying to figure out whether or not I'm that person. I'm not sure that the differences in grip are significant enough to be making a noticeable change in my recoil control. My accuracy and precision is what I'm much more concerned about. So far I don't have a ton of conclusive data, and I suspect other fundamentals issues are covering up the differences here for me.
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