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Thread: Viability of Pieing

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by TGS View Post
    Sure thing, hero. Pretty sure I'm not the only Marine here, and I'm pretty sure all of them here (including the P-F.com member who was one of my combat instructors some 15 years ago, teaching us this stuff, and is now a senior NCO overseeing the instruction of tactics from a programmatic level) would agree with me that the basic program is very limited and has some severe knowledge gaps when it comes to operating outside the concept of a provisional rifle squad.

    So, I guess I'll take that as a "yes".
    I never went to SOI/MCT.

    I understand the human nature of needing to know the background of who you are talking too.

    I try to avoid that out of respect for peoples privacy. But I guess if we are posting pictures of low vis vehicles with atak tablets velcro to the dash...all bets are off.

    I've been told some earth shattering things by people with shit for backgrounds.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by 43Under View Post
    As for the cover/concealment issue, I think experience has shown and countless CCTV videos have shown that people TEND to shoot at what they can see, and shooting through walls is rarely done, even by the bad guys (at least in a non-MOUT, more stateside context). I've seen shootouts in clothing stores where people did NOT shoot at their opponents through clothing racks, and instead waited for a visual target.
    People do tend to shoot at what they see, HCM noted an example. As another example my first boss at the academy used to give students a cleared firearm and tell them to shoot him, he then brought a clipboard into play and, in MOST cases, got the student officer to go through all kinds of movements to get the revolver (in those days) clear of the clipboard. Notice I said most. Likewise, will not common, in the last several decades, there have been several officers killed by assailant who shot through walls or doors to target them. I'm sure there have been more instances than I'm aware of, simply because LEOKA doesn't provide summaries of incidents where officers were injured, not killed.

    Thanks to the internet, and whether we want to admit it or not, several generations of veterans who have been well-trained in MOUT, the threat is credible. We need to develop tactics/take actions to mitigate that threat, rather than let it paralyze us.

  3. #63
    Wasn't there two FBI agents who got shot and killed through a door in the last month?

    If they had been able to return fire. What effects would that of had?

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    People do tend to shoot at what they see, HCM noted an example. As another example my first boss at the academy used to give students a cleared firearm and tell them to shoot him, he then brought a clipboard into play and, in MOST cases, got the student officer to go through all kinds of movements to get the revolver (in those days) clear of the clipboard. Notice I said most. Likewise, will not common, in the last several decades, there have been several officers killed by assailant who shot through walls or doors to target them. I'm sure there have been more instances than I'm aware of, simply because LEOKA doesn't provide summaries of incidents where officers were injured, not killed.

    Thanks to the internet, and whether we want to admit it or not, several generations of veterans who have been well-trained in MOUT, the threat is credible. We need to develop tactics/take actions to mitigate that threat, rather than let it paralyze us.
    Remember that drill well, but it was a DA/SA Sig, and a piece of paper. And you called me old...

    pat

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    Wasn't there two FBI agents who got shot and killed through a door in the last month?

    If they had been able to return fire. What effects would that of had?
    Through walls - but they were seen on security camera so not a valid example for your argument.

    A better example would be the Oakland SWAT officers shot through a bedroom wall from inside a closet by Lovelle Mixon in 2009.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Life’s a risk.

    How many opposed /potentially opposed rooms have you entered in real life (not SIMs) ?

    Have you ever been shot at (not SIMS) ?
    Are you trying to qualify if I have skin in the game? Or is this an attempt to discredit based on a perceived lack fo combat experience.

    There are no good answers to that question.

    If the real question is if I have a vested interest in not dying from being shot. The answer is yes

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by HCM View Post
    Through walls - but they were seen on security camera so not a valid example for your argument.

    A better example would be the Oakland SWAT officers shot through a bedroom wall from inside a closet by Lovelle Mixon in 2009.
    Does the proliferation of IOT Home camera systems dictate a change in potential approach?

    It does make my point because a guy, shot through a wall, delivering lethal effects on a target.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthNarc View Post
    Just for the record, I haven't taken anything thing you've said or your on-line comportment as being maliciously argumentative or disrespectful. I think tactics discussions are laborious and can get into being tedious depending on the time and energy that one has to devote to them with carefully, curated writing. I trend towards avoiding them usually because of my travel schedule and a limited amount of time and resources to actually give meaningful, nuanced, engagement.

    And I'm not the last word AT ALL. There are quite a few former commandos on closed programs that disagree with me on a lot of things. Getting a consensus among a group like that is literally herding cats.
    They absolutely can be. But given your travel schedule I'm sure you can relate to sitting around at an airport thinking on things.

    Why do these commandos disagree with you?

    I'm not trying to be a cunt so, if it comes off like that. It's not my intent

  9. #69
    Site Supporter Coyotesfan97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    Wasn't there two FBI agents who got shot and killed through a door in the last month?

    If they had been able to return fire. What effects would that of had?
    Hopefully suppress the suspect’s fire until they can pull back to LCC. For us it was usually the BATT or the Bearcat.

    You mentioned running rabbit. It’s probably different but when I went through the JTF6 CQB course in 1996ish running the rabbit was sending one operator running across a wide hallway or room to see if he drew fire. No one wanted to be the rabbit.
    Just a dog chauffeur that used to hold the dumb end of the leash.

  10. #70
    Member TGS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KEW8338 View Post
    Are you trying to qualify if I have skin in the game? Or is this an attempt to discredit based on a perceived lack fo combat experience.

    There are no good answers to that question.
    Can't discredit that which lacks credit to begin with.

    It's probably more an attempt to establish merit, given that your argument really doeent have nothing else to stand on.
    "Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer

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