Julian Assange arrested

[DG12]

What JHC said. Also for Assange posting material on how to interfere with our once in service warlock technology. Screw that guy. No brainer.

[Casual Friday]

I think the people that are seeing this to the extreme of one side or the other are missing the big picture. My gut tells me he should do time, it also tells me he's going to expose some real heinous shit that some powerful people hoped would never see the light of day.

[whomever]

I'm curious whether everyone realizes Assange is not a U.S. citizen?

I always try to follow the Golden Rule. If, say, a Tibetan activist hacked a Chinese computer and released material harmful to the Beijing government, should we extradite him/her back to China? Or what if a U.S. citizen hacks an Iranian or Cuban government computer? Do we extradite them to face Iranian/Cuban justice?

The argument that it's OK for us to enforce U.S. law on non U.S. citizens in other countries, but we don't have to let other countries enforce their law on U.S. citizens in the U.S. seems pretty 'might makes right' to me.

And the USA (cough ...NSA...cough) certainly acquires foreign classified matter, and releases it when we feel like it. They were tapping Angela Merkel's phone, for instance (which we know because of ...wikileaks). Should the people in the U.S. government face German justice for that?

Prosecuting your own citizens for breaking your own law (e.g. Manning) is one thing. Prosecuting foreigners who break U.S. law on U.S. soil, fine. Prosecuting foreign citizens for actions outside the U.S. seems pretty problematic to me.


(all this is aside from the original accusations of a ??rape in Sweden??. He should face trial for that.)

[revchuck38]

I think the people that are seeing this to the extreme of one side or the other are missing the big picture. My gut tells me he should do time, it also tells me he's going to expose some real heinous shit that some powerful people hoped would never see the light of day.

I agree with the bolded part, and IMO only that which reflects badly on the West will be revealed. Nothing implicating Russia will be revealed, because a) he knows on which side his bread is buttered, and b) he's fully aware that the Russians have no problem with killing people who piss them off.

My real fear is that his legal team will insist that everything he has be made public, even if it does grave damage to our country's security. My understanding is that the prosecution is obligated to turn over anything that may be exculpatory to the defense (any lawyers present, please correct me if necessary). Progressive lawyers will be competing to get on his defense team, and my perception is that they'd leak any information they got if they thought it would help Assange, consequences to the country be damned.

[TGS]

I'm curious whether everyone realizes Assange is not a U.S. citizen?

I always try to follow the Golden Rule. If, say, a Tibetan activist hacked a Chinese computer and released material harmful to the Beijing government, should we extradite him/her back to China? Or what if a U.S. citizen hacks an Iranian or Cuban government computer? Do we extradite them to face Iranian/Cuban justice?

The argument that it's OK for us to enforce U.S. law on non U.S. citizens in other countries, but we don't have to let other countries enforce their law on U.S. citizens in the U.S. seems pretty 'might makes right' to me.

Lots of bad info in this post.

Extraditions are conducted via treaties with countries.

Unlike what you're claiming, we do indeed extradite to other countries. England is one of those, by the way. Through diplomatic treaty, we also have agreements with some countries for our citizens to serve time for some crimes committed abroad in our prisons, and for citizens of foreign countries who committed certain crimes here to serve their time back in their home country.

We, like any other country in the world, do not extradite to countries with which we have no diplomatic relations. Like any other western country, we also don't extradite to countries with human rights problems.

So, yes, you can sure as shit bet your ass is going overseas to jail if you commit a very serious offense against one of our allies, like espionage, particularly espionage on a 5-Eyes country.

[whomever]

"Unlike what you're claiming, we do indeed extradite to other countries."

That's absolutely correct!

"We, like any other country in the world, do not extradite to countries with which we have no diplomatic relations. Like any other western country, we also don't extradite to countries with human rights problems."

We also don't extradite CIA agents to Italy, and I don't think it's for human rights reasons: https://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/28/w...n.4753522.html

But, I think you're missing the point. If Joe Blow commits a murder in Chicago and flees to Botswana, we try to extradite him. That's all good - he violated U.S. law on U.S. soil. Similarly, let's imagine a U.S. citizen violates, say, French law while in France, then returns to the U.S. I have no problem extraditing him.

But what if a citizen of Sri Lanka, in Sri Lanka, violates an extraterritorial U.S. law? What gives the U.S. the right to criminalize things that foreign citizens do in foreign countries? What's the ethical case for the U.S. being able to do that, that doesn't allow foreign countries to criminalize things that U.S. citizens do in the U.S.?

[David C.]

So, we should get a rope for Julian Assange for revealing our state secrets and means and methods. But Daniel Ellsberg of the Pentagon Papers fame gets a pass, as do Democratic staffers on the Church Committee, certain senators on the Senate Intelligence Committee, and Hillary Clinton who gave the Chinese and God knows who else the kitchen sink with an illegal server. Did I get that right?

[revchuck38]

So, we should get a rope for Julian Assange for revealing our state secrets and means and methods. But Daniel Ellsberg of the Pentagon Papers fame gets a pass, as do Democratic staffers on the Church Committee, certain senators on the Senate Intelligence Committee, and Hillary Clinton who gave the Chinese and God knows who else the kitchen sink with an illegal server. Did I get that right?

I think most of us would have preferred the (metaphorical) rope for them as well. Especially Hillary.

[critter]

From what I read, Assange was arrested for assisting Manning in actually hacking? That can't be correct. If so, I'm not sure that'll stick. He knowingly retained (on servers) and disseminated classified info which was provided by third parties. I'm not even sure that is illegal considering the precedent setting activities of others. This should be interesting as hell as it unfolds...

[TGS]

But what if a citizen of Sri Lanka, in Sri Lanka, violates an extraterritorial U.S. law? What gives the U.S. the right to criminalize things that foreign citizens do in foreign countries?

What gives us the "right"? The country that agrees the person should be extradited for breaking a given law with an internationally understood/agreed upon malum in se.

In other words, nothing gives us the "right" except the other country agreeing.....so I'm not sure how you can paint these extraditions as some sort of unilateral, self-righteous power move by the US. It's international cooperation on a case-by-case basis.

What's the ethical case for the U.S. being able to do that, that doesn't allow foreign countries to criminalize things that U.S. citizens do in the U.S.?

Ethical case?

Again, the ethics are that two different nation's agree upon a citizen of nation B committing an offense against nation A.

And, again, you're presuming a falsehood that foreign countries cannot criminalize things that US citizens do in the US. If you purposely go out of your way to commit a criminal offense against the people of one of our allies by way of a universally agreed upon crime recognized by both countries, you can do jail time. You might do your time here on behalf of the other nation's charges by agreement between the two countries, but your ass can still be held accountable.

The entire premise you have about this extradition business, that nobody else can do what we can, is a false understanding. Extradition is rooted in reciprocity.