New Duty Load

[Joe Mac]

Based on my armoring training and experience, I'd say that, with the +P loads, slide velocities start outrunning magazine springs and their ability to position a new round in time to be cleanly stripped and fed.

I'm not entirely convinced this is a problem -- but with a caveat, because my experience has not been trouble-free.

I have somewhere between 2500-3000 rounds of 124+P Gold Dot through my two G43s, and have had three (maybe four) failures to feed, nose-in to the ramp. These do suggest slide velocity vs. mag spring. However, all of these have occurred with factory pinky-extension mags, none with the flat baseplate. My working theory is that pinky pressure on the mag might tilt it *just* enough to increase the likelihood of such a malfunction. (Not even addressing the issues I've had with aftermarket extensions -- none of them are trustworthy!)

I no longer have the pinky extension on any of my G43 mags, which suits me fine because it's a pocket holster gun anyway. If I'm carrying on the belt it'll be something larger.

The above being said, now that I am recently retired and issuing my own ammo, I might add a stash of non- +P for use in the G43, although I haven't decided which load and whether it's worth the bother.

By the way, Wayne -- we met last year at the [range of a large northwestern PD] when you happened to be there while we had the advanced armorer class going. Great discussion of pistol optics, thank you.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I'm not entirely convinced this is a problem -- but with a caveat, because my experience has not been trouble-free.

I have somewhere between 2500-3000 rounds of 124+P Gold Dot through my two G43s, and have had three (maybe four) failures to feed, nose-in to the ramp. These do suggest slide velocity vs. mag spring. However, all of these have occurred with factory pinky-extension mags, none with the flat baseplate. My working theory is that pinky pressure on the mag might tilt it *just* enough to increase the likelihood of such a malfunction. (Not even addressing the issues I've had with aftermarket extensions -- none of them are trustworthy!)

I no longer have the pinky extension on any of my G43 mags, which suits me fine because it's a pocket holster gun anyway. If I'm carrying on the belt it'll be something larger.

The above being said, now that I am recently retired and issuing my own ammo, I might add a stash of non- +P for use in the G43, although I haven't decided which load and whether it's worth the bother.

By the way, Wayne -- we met last year at the [range of a large northwestern PD] when you happened to be there while we had the advanced armorer class going. Great discussion of pistol optics, thank you.

You may have a point there Joe Mac, although I've not ever isolated where what I call stack tilt has resulted in Glock 9mm malfunctions (don't get me going on Glock .40 issues). Thanks for the kind words about that armorer's course "presentation". I love what I do and the product that I sell, especially to the cops.

[TC215]

I just got a call from a rep at Federal. He initially denied (adamantly) that any changes had been made to the bullet design. After I pressed him a bit, he finally admitted that they changed the design to a double cannelure 3-5 years ago (this is consistent with other information I've been given). I told him that I'd heard rumors about under-expansion recently with the 147gr, and he said those rumors were false. This is obviously inconsistent with what has been posted in this thread, and also information received from members here via PM where Federal reps have admitted to limited instances of under-expansion.

The quality manager from Federal is supposed to call me tomorrow.

The newer stuff is using a blue primer sealant.

Older is using red.

I can tell the difference, but I'm still overly cautious, and loading 124 +P.

I asked about this-- he said the sealant can be red, blue, or clear. It depends on what machine they're using.

[ArgentFix]

Many big pictures warning!

Just my datapoints. In all pictures, left was purchased from Streicher's in October 2018, right from Target Sports July 2019. In short, the cases, boxes, sealant, and skiving are all different.











Round on the left was chambered. Oddly, both of these skivings seem to have a length somewhere between the bullets in this post:

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....highlight=hst2

Is there maybe just that much variation in skiving?

[ssb]

So what I'm gathering is that I'm sitting on 1500+ rounds of ammo that probably won't expand when fired through the 4LD test, despite all the consistent recommendation for this load from the SME types which continued even after the production change in 2017 or so?

[ST911]

I keep book on most of my guns, and find G43s to be reliable with the +P loads I've shot when using OEM mags without extensions. That includes some loads that are less inherently feed-friendly. Pressure is pressure, and doesn't always mean more velocity at bullet or slide. Cartridge OAL, bullet profile, and bullet length are also significant variables in play. Talking about pressure in isolation is like talking about bullet weight, i.e. "147s aren't reliable." It's just one variable in a complex equation.

I do believe that the G43 is slightly under-sprung, but likely needs to be for the anemic ammo many users will shoot through them.

[ST911]

Federal is somewhat notorious for undisclosed tweaks and the 147 HST is no different. Some folks there are super helpful with product tech and specs, some are not. Like other manufacturers, I think they can be a little quick to the dumb-customer/"another call about something on the internet" response pattern.

[Brian T]

Well shit. I have been a devotee to the Cult of the 147gr for over 15 years now. There's a Fat .50 can in my closet 28 boxes (50 rds each) of 147gr HST2. I bought most of that stuff from a department trade-in at GT Distributors. It came from a Sheriffs dept were the Sheriff wouldnt hear of his deputies carrying 9mm. It all got traded in for HST in .40 and .45. And here I was cocky as can be that I was ahead of an ammo crunch. Never would I have to buy defensive ammo at ever increasing prices. Fuck.

My thoughts re: auto glass as a Joe Citizen, I do care performance on autoglass and carbodies more than most other members of the citizenry. I drive a lot, doing my railroad thing. When I am out and about, and stopped, I find myself inside or around cars a lot!. My primary concern is still 4LD.

My second favorite load is 124gr+P GDHP. I have 500 rounds of it. I do not feel comfortable with switching SD loads with that quantity. I guess I'll stick with what I have.

BTW, Dallas PD was a long time user of the vaunted Winchester 147gr Ranger Talon (RA9T). They took care of bidness with that round. However Winchester QC/QA got 'em bad and they finally had enough. And right about that time Hornady stepped in as an all your depts ammo needs one stop shop.

Why oh why Ammo Gods, couldnt you have given me a plentiful supply of my favorite load, 135gr+P Fed Tac Bonded.

[jd950]

Well shit. I have been a devotee to the Cult of the 147gr for over 15 years now.

I suggest that we keep this in perspective. I suspect even the "bad" HST2 will perform no worse than a lot of the ammo out there that is relied upon by many. Although we all want to have a round that behaves in as close to an ideal manner as possible, none of these are magic bullets. A properly placed "bad" HST2 should still do what needs to be done, although perhaps slightly less reliably or with less margin for error. Most of the fatal and serious injury handgun wounds that occur in this country each year involve ball ammo or other "less than ideal" ammo.

I think this situation warrants consideration of other options when it is time to purchase new ammo, and as a duty round may be suspect, but it is not like the stuff won't go bang when it needs to. I also see no need to write a eulogy for 147gr 9mm. Gold Dot is available in that weight in two variations and is well-regarded, Hornady offers an XTP (although I cannot speak to its performance) and Federal may well "tweak" the HST this week or next. Winchester still makes 147 and if they were to get their quality control situation in hand, that is a round that performs well.

Would I buy a case of HST2 right now? No, but I am not throwing away what I have, or relegating it to range only. At least not at this point. Still, I will not likely be buying more unless and until I have more information. I still consider 147gr non +p the best choice in a small 9mm gun. I will probably buy GD as the need arises to replenish.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Well shit. I have been a devotee to the Cult of the 147gr for over 15 years now. There's a Fat .50 can in my closet 28 boxes (50 rds each) of 147gr HST2. I bought most of that stuff from a department trade-in at GT Distributors. It came from a Sheriffs dept were the Sheriff wouldnt hear of his deputies carrying 9mm. It all got traded in for HST in .40 and .45. And here I was cocky as can be that I was ahead of an ammo crunch. Never would I have to buy defensive ammo at ever increasing prices. Fuck.

My thoughts re: auto glass as a Joe Citizen, I do care performance on autoglass and carbodies more than most other members of the citizenry. I drive a lot, doing my railroad thing. When I am out and about, and stopped, I find myself inside or around cars a lot!. My primary concern is still 4LD.

My second favorite load is 124gr+P GDHP. I have 500 rounds of it. I do not feel comfortable with switching SD loads with that quantity. I guess I'll stick with what I have.

BTW, Dallas PD was a long time user of the vaunted Winchester 147gr Ranger Talon (RA9T). They took care of bidness with that round. However Winchester QC/QA got 'em bad and they finally had enough. And right about that time Hornady stepped in as an all your depts ammo needs one stop shop.

Why oh why Ammo Gods, couldnt you have given me a plentiful supply of my favorite load, 135gr+P Fed Tac Bonded.

You guys should stop worrying about this change. When it's all boiled down, ammo choice is probably no more than 5% of the factors in a shooting going well or not. YOU are the major factor in success or failure.