"Dum-dum" bullets are JSP rifle projectiles, originally produced in the Dum Dum Arsenal in India.
So no, that are not handgun bullets, nor are they JHP's....
"Dum-dum" bullets are JSP rifle projectiles, originally produced in the Dum Dum Arsenal in India.
So no, that are not handgun bullets, nor are they JHP's....
Facts matter...Feelings Can Lie
Dum-dums are everywhere, just not bullets...Originally Posted by DocGKR
Historically that's true, but colloquially it is any expanding bullet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expanding_bullet
Expanding bullets, also known colloquially as dumdum bullets, are projectiles designed to expand on impact.
Though they've reorganized and renumbered much of the SF Municipal Police Code in the last few years, the wording above remains regarding ammunition. As I told a City Attorney who called us last week with a question regarding this, the law is essentially meaningless and unenforceable. But it made a bunch of political hacks feel good about themselves 20 years ago.
When trying to create a nexus between an object such as Federal EFMJ and the state law, please reference the definition of a dum-dum in the applicable state statute being referenced.
Wikipedia doesn't matter.
P.S. you just tried contradicting an expert witness by using Wikipedia. DocGKR is one of the few people in the country that CAN actually be called in to court to clarify the definition/classification of ammunition components. Wikipedia isn't.
You're really pegging the stupid meter, dude.
Last edited by TGS; 03-06-2020 at 07:01 AM.
"Are you ready? Okay. Let's roll."- Last words of Todd Beamer
Wikipedia is a convenient source of popular knowledge. You could be an expert in language arguing until you're blue in the face that "literally" does NOT mean figuratively, but when enough people use literally in figurative manner that figurative definition literally becomes acceptable to lexicographers.
And since we're well past weaponizing Aspergers here, why are they called hollow points? You cannot have a hollow point - it is "literally" an oxymoron...
Perhaps the only thing less convincing than appealing to authority is making ad hominem attacks. But since we're appealing to authority, I'd wager courts would assume a Merriam Webster definition more closely matches the intent of legislators than a definition from an expert no one outside the gun community knows.P.S. you just tried contradicting an expert witness by using Wikipedia. DocGKR is one of the few people in the country that CAN actually be called in to court to clarify the definition/classification of ammunition components. Wikipedia isn't.
You're really pegging the stupid meter, dude.
dumdum: a bullet (such as one with a hollow point) that expands more than usual upon hitting an object
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dumdum
Or maybe you prefer the Cambridge English Dictionary:
dumdum bullet
noun [ C ]
UK /ˈdʌm.dʌm ˌbʊl.ɪt/ US /ˈdʌm.dʌm ˌbʊl.ɪt/
(also dumdum)
a bullet with a soft front that increases in size when it hits someone, causing serious injuries
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/.../dumdum-bullet
Or how about the Collins English Dictionary:
dumdum (ˈdʌmˌdʌm)
n
(Firearms, Gunnery, Ordnance & Artillery) a soft-nosed or hollow-nosed small-arms bullet that expands on impact and inflicts extensive laceration. Also called: dumdum bullet
[C19: named after Dum-Dum, town near Kolkata (Calcutta) where these bullets were made]
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/di...english/dumdum
Last edited by 0ddl0t; 03-06-2020 at 08:30 AM.
Not that DocGKR needs me to defend him, but you’re so far out of your lane you’re not even on the same road anymore. I know that “appeal to authority” is considered by some to always be a logical fallacy, but our society literally (as in the literal definition of literally) would cease functioning if we stopped listening to people who were experts or authorities in their fields. There is a reason that courts certify expert witnesses for specific subject matters. I don’t know if you know about that aspect of the legal system, because you continually post nonsense in discussions about the legal system.
My posts only represent my personal opinion and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or official policies of any employer, past or present. Obvious spelling errors are likely the result of an iPhone keyboard.
I know what it is like, to belong to a non-pistol-forum that used to be a wealth of knowledge, about ten to twenty years ago, but the professionals and SMEs gradually faded away, as the instant experts, shills, influencers, and such, ruined the place. Sadly, it is now difficult to find intelligent, non-commercialized discussion of the use of professional-level equipment of this type, anywhere on-line.
Retar’d LE. Kinesthetic dufus.
Don’t tread on volcanos!
https://law.justia.com/codes/new-jer...2c-39/2c-39-3/
2009 New Jersey Code
TITLE 2C - THE NEW JERSEY CODE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE
2c:39
2C:39-3 - Prohibited weapons and devices
The NJ statue goes into great detail in defining armor piercing bullets but they don’t appear to define what constitutes hollow point or dum dum bullets.f.Dum-dum or body armor penetrating bullets. (1) Any person, other than a law enforcement officer or persons engaged in activities pursuant to subsection f. of N.J.S.2C:39-6, who knowingly has in his possession any hollow nose or dum-dum bullet, or (2) any person, other than a collector of firearms or ammunition as curios or relics as defined in Title 18, United States Code, section 921 (a) (13) and has in his possession a valid Collector of Curios and Relics License issued by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, who knowingly has in his possession any body armor breaching or penetrating ammunition, which means: (a) ammunition primarily designed for use in a handgun, and (b) which is comprised of a bullet whose core or jacket, if the jacket is thicker than.025 of an inch, is made of tungsten carbide, or hard bronze, or other material which is harder than a rating of 72 or greater on the Rockwell B. Hardness Scale, and (c) is therefore capable of breaching or penetrating body armor, is guilty of a crime of the fourth degree. For purposes of this section, a collector may possess not more than three examples of each distinctive variation of the ammunition described above. A distinctive variation includes a different head stamp, composition, design, or color.
Lacking a definition in the statute, I think JoshS’ argument that the NJ state police publicly stating via their website that filled hollowpoints like critical defense are not hollowpoints for NJ purposes should provide a defense. Given the reasonable man standard applied in most American quarts it would be hard to say that carrying ammunition specifically named as being New Jersey legal on the New Jersey State police website indicated any sort of criminal intent.
Of course, there is nothing reasonable about New Jersey.
The NJ appellate court addressed the assertion that the failure to define the term “Dum Dum” bullet in the statute made it unconstitutionally vague in the Brian Aitken case but I could not find anything detailing exactly what ammo he had when arrested.
Tne NJ court defaulted to the Webster’s dictionary definition
Appellate decision here. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cas...49349857e9/amp
Last edited by HCM; 03-06-2020 at 10:58 AM.
Just as a historical fact - https://karlgoetz.com/ImageDetail.aspx?idImage=72. This a German medal denouncing the use of dum dum bullets with a picture of what they described as such. This in no way is a claim for my expertise in NJ laws or ammo but just an interesting illustration from another lane of my expertise - numismatics. FYI:
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