Discuss: Safety

[breakingtime91]

Not all of them have his finger in the trigger guard. One of them shows him dropping a mag with his trigger finger, he's running a reversed Glock magazine catch.

Jv what screen shots if he referring to?

[JV_]

I'm referring to this one:
http://i.imgur.com/HtDcrc4l.jpg

[Mike R]

Jv what screen shots if he referring to?

I could find a dozen more if it would change your mind, but it wouldn't. Both of these would be clear DQs in USPSA. Over the berm is not a safe direction.

[breakingtime91]

I could find a dozen more if it would change your mind, but it wouldn't. Both of these would be clear DQs in USPSA. Over the berm is not a safe direction.

Alright I understand that we "insulted" your sport but please don't tell me what will change my mind. This isn't pistol-forum vs competition shooters. With that said the context of the picture is everything (like I said about the original).

[JV_]

I could find a dozen more if it would change your mind, but it wouldn't. Both of these would be clear DQs in USPSA. Over the berm is not a safe direction.

Change my mind about what?

I know what it looks like, and it looks no different than the picture in the original post.

I've been burned too many times trying to over-analyze a picture and draw conclusions. It's better to use the picture to discuss the overarching issues that the picture could convey than to worry about one instance where all you have is a single picture, and many parts of the scene are missing - like the targets.

[Carnifex]

Not all of them have his finger in the trigger guard. One of them shows him dropping a mag with his trigger finger, he's running a reversed Glock magazine catch.

That image was taken from this video where he is shooting a 1911 and dropping mags with his thumb. http://youtu.be/pJFVmO_OsVs

[breakingtime91]

That image was taken from this video where he is shooting a 1911 and dropping mags with his thumb. http://youtu.be/pJFVmO_OsVs

Ok so I watched the whole video and at no point was he unsafe.

[JV_]

ETA:

At what timestamp in the video was the picture taken? at 0:29? His finger is properly indexed during that reload, you can't see any part of it when the gun is angled. Exactly when does he put his finger on the trigger during his target engagement, I have no clue. We don't have enough fps or an angle to judge the rest, IMO.

[Mike R]

None

It is not on from what I can call

pretty likely.


great example of poor gun handling.

JV,

this is what I was referring to in "changing your mind"- wasn't directed specifically at you. I would argue that it is masterful gun handling.

In the screencaps, Todd is displaying what many people here take as "gospel" and good gun handling- yet people aren't clamoring for a DQ for Todd, or talking about changing. People have even reaffirmed that with the press out you get on the trigger before seeing your sights- and due to the technique that is being championed, that means finger on trigger while the gun is pointed in an unsafe direction.

This is the competition subsection, and like Todd, in the name of speed and efficiency the original shooter brings his finger to the trigger and begins to take up slack as he confirms final sight alignment.

I disagree with the premise of Todd's original post, as if the use of the manual safety or having a heavy trigger would change the situation. Either the gun is pointed in a safe direction AND the shooter is engaging targets, or not. In this case, our shooter, we will call him George (name changed to protect the innocent) - is engaging a target and the muzzle is in a safe direction.

In the screencap of Todd, he is in the process of engaging a target, but his finger is on the trigger and the gun is not pointed is a safe direction.

So striking the mag being released screen capture, can you comment on the other images? I know you don't want to judge based on a single image, but both of those are captures of a video that we can easily find.

I do find it funny that someone who shoots for a living with a "space" or "race" gun on a closed competition course gets crucified as unsafe, while someone who is teaching people to draw their weapon in potentially lethal self defense can advocate and display getting on the trigger before the muzzle has reached a safe direction and people don't have a problem with it because it is a factory gun and presumably has a trigger that weighs more than 2.5 lbs.

None of this is intended to be a personal attack on anyone- I am only trying to continue the discussion as I believe that a finger should only be on the trigger while the muzzle is in a safe direction.

[Mr_White]

I was always taught, and maintain that there is no speed advantage to getting on the trigger before both hands come together on the gun at chest level. And then only if you made the conscious decision to fire.

...

And had us do number of draws where you never got into the trigger because you've not yet made a decision to fire, and suggested we incorporate it into our dry fire and range practice to prevent such a training scar.

PPGMD, I could not agree more with this, and this is exactly what I teach as well. And I'd add a further separation - drawing to fire accurately at the earliest opportunity = drawing to sights and finger getting to the trigger while the gun is being extended, vs. drawing without having made the decision to fire yet = drawing to a vision-unobstructed ready position with finger in register.