Our new and improved Iraq discussion thread!

[Borderland]

I don't mean to harp on this but it truly pains me. All I keep thinking about is how much it reminds me of this scene from Tombstone...and it pains me even more when I feel my friends like JRB are being improperly utilized and employed as a result. All of this could be averted by simply not declaring military policy decisions via tweet. What foreign leader is going to take his next set of threats seriously?

That goes back to not having figured out the president thing. Mostly I think it's a 'I have to have an audience' ego stroke. Another reason why he watches the news on Fox (about him) every morning. When they don't build up his ego he tweets them down like he does everyone that crosses him.

I don't tweet and I don't know anyone who does. Mostly they text ( boomer/millennial) or use Instagram (younger generations). I'm trying to figure out who his adoring audience is. Maybe his twitter account is his official position on all things of any importance to him but it leaves a lot of people out of the loop, including our military.

[Borderland]

It bothers me when it seems that to much of the world, the reasonable party in this most recent crisis are the ones in Tehran. "Impulsive," "erratic" and "unstable" are adjectives that used to stick to the Iranians.

Beyond that, Trump has spent the last three years peeing in the NATO pool. Now he's near-demanding that the NATO nations help out. I don't imagine that other than Boris, that Euro leaders are going to jump to Trump's commands.

Nope. NATO's seen enough. Most of them are leaving Iraq. It's become a pissing match between Iran and the US. Coalition will be gone soon enough.

[fly out]

I don't mean to harp on this but it truly pains me. All I keep thinking about is how much it reminds me of this scene from Tombstone...and it pains me even more when I feel my friends like JRB are being improperly utilized and employed as a result. All of this could be averted by simply not declaring military policy decisions via tweet. What foreign leader is going to take his next set of threats seriously?

I just don't see it that way. Soleimani tries to reenact 1979, the mullahs tell Trump that there's nothing he can do, and a day later the man that is being described as the second-most powerful/second-most popular person in Iran is eliminated very publicly while meeting with puppet militia leaders in a foreign country. What I took from what Trump was saying is that his red line was killing an American, and that didn't happen. He added additional economic sanctions, which I assume he viewed as a measured response. Whether they will be effective, I cannot say.

Had Americans been killed during the missile attack, and Trump did nothing, I'd take your point.

As for points raised above about Soleimani himself, he wasn't simply an Iranian general in any traditional sense of the word. Quds was designated by the Bush and Obama administrations as a terrorist organization, and the Trump administration added in the Revolutionary Guard last year. Soleimani was individually named and sanctioned multiple times for his role in international terror, and not just by the US. In many regards, Soleimani was Quds.

[Totem Polar]

Funny though, they’re the same sorts who would have no trouble ordering the National Guard to handle law enforcement refusing to enforce unconstitutional gun laws but god forbid we get aggressive with a nation that has made it clear they want us all dead.

It’s strange times, for sure.

[farscott]

If this happening and we want to address it we need to declare war which is done by Congress who would need to be properly informed to do so. So are you now going to admit you have been flying off the handle or are you just going to admit you don’t give a fuck about the Constitution as long as it’s your guy in charge?

While I am not an attorney, I am not sure that the attack violated the Constitution due to the War Powers Act. The high level summary is as follows.

The War Powers Resolution requires the president to notify Congress within 48 hours of committing armed forces to military action and forbids armed forces from remaining for more than 60 days, with a further 30-day withdrawal period, without a congressional authorization for use of military force (AUMF) or a declaration of war by the United States.

So Congress was notified with forty-hours of the commitment (maybe depending upon when the operation was approved as the notification was on 04-JAN and the operation occurred on 03-JAN) and the action is complete. One could also argue that the Congress has already authorized the action due to Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq and Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists. While passed back when Bush 41 was POTUS, those engagements never ended and are the reasons the personnel are already deployed in Iraq.

[Borderland]

I "come across as a dedicated Never Trumper"? I take it that you not read much of what I've said here. Damned skippy I am. I've followed Trump's antics for a few decades; I wouldn't trust him to work a hot dog cart in Poughkeepsie.

The rest of this is, to my mind, crap. I'm not the one who is presidenting at an age when the big decision should be whether or not to hit the early-dinner-half-price buffet. What I've done and when I've done it is irrelevant.

I was in the neverHillary club. Still am but she's fading out of the public eye pretty fast. At least until Trump digs her up again to boost his ego. I've watched her ever since her and Bill tried to run a real estate scam in Arkansas. Slimey pair those two. So you can form opinions that are concrete set into stone just by living awhile.

I'm not a dedicated never Trumper because honestly I didn't know who he was before 2015. I have to give him credit for a few things. Nobody can be a total loss. I'll just put him in the same category as Jimmy Carter and Gerald Ford, neither won reelection. If he happens to get reelected I'll upgrade his status the Bill Clinton category.

[blues]

I just don't see it that way. Soleimani tries to reenact 1979, the mullahs tell Trump that there's nothing he can do, and a day later the man that is being described as the second-most powerful/second-most popular person in Iran is eliminated very publicly while meeting with puppet militia leaders in a foreign country. What I took from what Trump was saying is that his red line was killing an American, and that didn't happen. He added additional economic sanctions, which I assume he viewed as a measured response. Whether they will be effective, I cannot say.

Had Americans been killed during the missile attack, and Trump did nothing, I'd take your point.

I don't think we are far apart in our points of view. My biggest point is that it is far preferable to keep your cards close to your vest rather than making rash statements about what you plan to do on twitter...only to not do them. (And I agree that restraint where restraint is appropriate is preferable to launching a war to save face.)

The bad actors don't need to hear what we plan to do in advance...whether in law enforcement, military or foreign policy. And what you don't say in a tweet can't be used against you later on.

[RoyGBiv]

As for Congressional condemnation of the whole drone strike, gee I wonder who the sack-less folks are who have allowed Iran to continue their shenanigans through attempting to placate them continually. Funny though, they’re the same sorts who would have no trouble ordering the National Guard to handle law enforcement refusing to enforce unconstitutional gun laws but god forbid we get aggressive with a nation that has made it clear they want us all dead.

QFT

Right, and remind me how many times we tried to assassinate the head of the KGB when the Soviets were funding and assisting the PLO, the Red Brigades and every other fricking terrorist group out there, except for the guys who took over the Nakitomi Tower.

IIRC, we were putting full faith and effort in countering the Soviets and pretty much every US politician was on board. MAD dictated different tactics in that relationship. Iran today creates trouble on a scale they are far too puny to defend, are pursuing nuclear weapons and what do we do? We give them planeloads of cash and a treaty that lets them build a bomb, but only far enough after Obama leaves office that his legacy might deflect the blame.

[fly out]

NeverTrumpers had to be Republicans or (nominally) conservatives to start with. They were committed to stopping Trump from getting the Republican nomination.

Progressives and leftists who happen to hate Trump aren't NeverTrumpers. They just hate Trump.

[Stephanie B]

...who would have no trouble ordering the National Guard to handle law enforcement ...

That worked out really well in Ohio about fifty years ago... {/sarc}

It would not surprise me one whit if a lot of M-4s ended up "falling off of the back of a truck" in such an eventuality.