P365 Spectre Comp

[runcible]

The more I dwell on this idea, the more I find myself warming up to it.

No action spring tuning.
No setscrews.
No potential for free-rotation of an attached comp.
No specialty holster fitment (a la old KKMed G19s with those hard corners exceeding the G34 footprint).
No additional moving or removable parts.

At $1100 and not on the work-kosher list, it's not something that I can presently justify; but it's interesting and I intend to pick one up down the road after some massive tooling costs are taken care of. Certainly, it's more available and lower-costing than the presently unobtanium, $3000 Agency Arms NOCs that explored similar concepts; and I don't see the loss of the sight-tracker barrel as a great loss, on the scale of things.

I'd really like to see what other companies do to answer the mail on this one.

[SouthNarc]

The more I dwell on this idea, the more I find myself warming up to it.

No action spring tuning.
No setscrews.
No potential for free-rotation of an attached comp.
No specialty holster fitment (a la old KKMed G19s with those hard corners exceeding the G34 footprint).
No additional moving or removable parts.

At $1100 and not on the work-kosher list, it's not something that I can presently justify; but it's interesting and I intend to pick one up down the road after some massive tooling costs are taken care of. Certainly, it's more available and lower-costing than the presently unobtanium, $3000 Agency Arms NOCs that explored similar concepts; and I don't see the loss of the sight-tracker barrel as a great loss, on the scale of things.

I'd really like to see what other companies do to answer the mail on this one.

So Phil Strader says in this video at some point the slide by itself will be available for purchase.

[runcible]

So Phil Strader says in this video at some point the slide by itself will be available for purchase.

Well shoot, right there at 2:32 - thank you! That's great news, I'll be keeping an eye out for that.

[octagon]

Phil Strader was on Gun Talk video the other day and said that they expect to have just the slide available in the future once they catch up with current demand. He also hinted that a more basic version may be offered with regular slide design with the comp not called Spectre and no TIN trigger and barrel.

In another thread I suggested extended barrel with comp cuts and backbored to reduce/eliminate bullet jacket fragments being ejected upwards. This would have the same benefits Runcible mentioned.

[Mike C]

@tlong17 it is definitely ammo dependent. With hotter 124gr stuff it is noticeable. I posted a little info about this in the other 365/XL thread. There is no appreciable difference with 147gr stuff. Might be more significant for me with the hotter loads because I am dealing with some issues with hands/arms. So there is a comfort aspect also. However without a timer, list of drills, tracking scoring and time there is quantifiable difference when shooting the Spectre with a red dot in tracking the dot. I can mostly keep the dot in the window vs XL where I lose the dot regularly, even more with the 365X. That might be more of a skillset with reddot/grip thing though for me and where I am at but I would say there is a difference. Probably not worth the $600 or so extra that most will pay for the upgrade but it's there and I like options. The tight pants comment was hilarious though, @YVK

If the slide can be purchased later I would wait and just grab a slide, I will be switching out the awful gold trigger and barrel on mine asap. That shit is hideous.

[tlong17]

@tlong17 it is definitely ammo dependent. With hotter 124gr stuff it is noticeable. I posted a little info about this in the other 365/XL thread. There is no appreciable difference with 147gr stuff. Might be more significant for me with the hotter loads because I am dealing with some issues with hands/arms. So there is a comfort aspect also. However without a timer, list of drills, tracking scoring and time there is quantifiable difference when shooting the Spectre with a red dot in tracking the dot. I can mostly keep the dot in the window vs XL where I lose the dot regularly, even more with the 365X. That might be more of a skillset with reddot/grip thing though for me and where I am at but I would say there is a difference. Probably not worth the $600 or so extra that most will pay for the upgrade but it's there and I like options. The tight pants comment was hilarious though, @YVK

If the slide can be purchased later I would wait and just grab a slide, I will be switching out the awful gold trigger and barrel on mine asap. That shit is hideous.

Good info.

The one I shot had irons only and didn’t have an XL to shoot at the same time. Only went off experience shooting my own XL. Not a great experiment on my part!

[JRV]

Guns like this make me despise Sig. It’s when they are their ca. 2002 Kimber-est.

They’ve integrated a bushing compensator, the mark of a new 1911 owner with no understanding of ballistics and a fresh Cheaper Than Dirt catalog, into a P365 slide.

If a muzzle device has enough frontal area for the outer diameter of a barrel to fit through, and you’re shooting subsonic/near-subsonic ammo through that oversized muzzle port, it’s not a compensator. Any incidental gas deflection that occurs through the top “ports” would lack the volume needed to affect recoil, because the majority of the expanding gas is going to leave the muzzle port (which has at least four times more circular area than the inner bore diameter).

Sig knows that. They have to know it. They know bushing comps are a scam product that fool people into buying decorative muzzle weights. Regardless, they’ve spammed their new integrated bushing comp on social media to a bunch of people with (i) zero understanding of how a pistol compensator works and certainly zero experience tuning open guns (e.g. Mike Glover and TFBTV) or (ii) zero scruples about shilling something for views (Taran’s harem).

It’s a P365XL with a short barrel (less velocity), a full length recoil spring, and a lighter slide. It should recoil less, especially with stouter loadings that normally take advantage of longer barrels. It’s almost twice the price of a normal P365XL. But it’s not comped. It’s less “comped” than a properly ported gun.

This is the same company that tried to sell the Meprolight Bullseye sight to new shooters in the concealed carry market as a functional red dot substitute. I wouldn’t be surprised if they reinvented the SERPA holster next.

[JCN]

@JRV

I'm having a difficult time sorting out the arguments / issues that you're saying.

1. Bushing comps don't do much with subsonic ammo. Sure. But they do some, but not much.

2. Are you saying they also don't do anything for supersonic? Or not enough for it to matter (to you)?

I don't think any of the reviewers are shooting subsonic.

Taran uses frangible which is generally 90gr very fast and gassy ammo.



Personally, I've used something similar in the Dark Hour standoff comp device doing Bill Drills with 357 Sig frangible (very fast and very gassy) which is basically 9 major and it makes a proportionally large difference the faster and gassier the ammo.


I agree it's mainly marketing to the masses because it looks cool. It's like the Fast and Furious big wings and spoilers of the 90s with "stanced" wheels.


But for people who are good enough to take advantage of the actual benefits, I think it's a blessing that a company makes these functionally niche products marketed to the masses.


I love my P365 SAS but it's really not for everyone. I'm glad they made it though.



Same thing with this bushing comp.

If it's deemed "not a comp" for USPSA competition for sure I'm buying the X5 Legion version and running lighter ammo.

[Mike C]

Guns like this make me despise Sig. It’s when they are their ca. 2002 Kimber-est.

They’ve integrated a bushing compensator, the mark of a new 1911 owner with no understanding of ballistics and a fresh Cheaper Than Dirt catalog, into a P365 slide.

If a muzzle device has enough frontal area for the outer diameter of a barrel to fit through, and you’re shooting subsonic/near-subsonic ammo through that oversized muzzle port, it’s not a compensator. Any incidental gas deflection that occurs through the top “ports” would lack the volume needed to affect recoil, because the majority of the expanding gas is going to leave the muzzle port (which has at least four times more circular area than the inner bore diameter).

Sig knows that. They have to know it. They know bushing comps are a scam product that fool people into buying decorative muzzle weights. Regardless, they’ve spammed their new integrated bushing comp on social media to a bunch of people with (i) zero understanding of how a pistol compensator works and certainly zero experience tuning open guns (e.g. Mike Glover and TFBTV) or (ii) zero scruples about shilling something for views (Taran’s harem).

It’s a P365XL with a short barrel (less velocity), a full length recoil spring, and a lighter slide. It should recoil less, especially with stouter loadings that normally take advantage of longer barrels. It’s almost twice the price of a normal P365XL. But it’s not comped. It’s less “comped” than a properly ported gun.

This is the same company that tried to sell the Meprolight Bullseye sight to new shooters in the concealed carry market as a functional red dot substitute. I wouldn’t be surprised if they reinvented the SERPA holster next.

JRV, I completely get the Sig despising, I was there for a long time and in a lot of ways still am. Even though I think they have been very innovative and do really, really like the P365 series as it is and has been super reliable, (even though Sig has a crap load to work on I can still see value in some of their products). I agree whole heartedly with you about the shilling and agree with pricing on it, marketing, influencing and other silliness. I went into buying one thinking I was going to totally waste my money but now I am unsure. Lastly I have to say you are freaking spot on about the Bullseye sight and new shooters however, I am not sure I agree wholly over function on the Spectre. Please excuse my ignorance as I have zero experience tuning comped guns it sounds like you do and I am looking for as much of an education or sharing of your experience and thoughts as you are willing to share.

In my very limited experience and point of view the Spectre recoils the exact same to me with 147gr stuff as the 365X, and XL. This is confirmed by others but it does not however feel the same with hotter ammo. It is noticeably different. That to me leads me to believe along with other observations that it is not just a matter of recoil spring. Here is where I am coming from. We know the 9mm to be an extremely ballistically efficient cartridge. In my layman's understanding I know that there is roughly a 35 FPS difference between the XL and P365 barrel so going from a 3.7"ish barrel to the 3.1" based on crony data and handloads I therefore believe there to be additional gas pressure/powder and ignition occurring past the end of the 3.1" barrel inside the milled space/ported area. How much I am uncertain.

I am not an engineer but that gas pressure/powder being combusted, (non optimal conditions) must still go somewhere. My best guess is path of least resistance, out of the top. I believe that there is evidence of this as there is a fair bit of flash, pressure and particulate being dispersed from the porting on the top of the slide. If I showed you photos of the barrel after use the powder burn and soot build up on the top of the barrel stops at about 1/8". This observation leads me to believe contrary to your opinion/belief. To continue my line of thought if there is sufficiently tight enough fitment between barrel and slide not all of that gas pressure is going to be redirected backward towards the shooter, (evident on the barrel) and back into the slide, some will escape from the porting along the top, some from the front. Regardless of optimized efficiency or not if the, "slide porting" provides any level of port activation reducing muzzle rise using hotter ammo it is a win. How much of a win or how much value one sees in it I think will be determined by more than cost to some, others status or whatever. For me I fall along the lines of anything that can help me reduce the discomfort I'm feeling so I can shoot my carry gun more is a win.

I hope I was able to somewhat lay this out in an organized manner and I know that I am speaking from pure ignorance and layman's observation but if you would entertain my observation and theory I would really like to know what you think so I can have a better understanding of what is at play and what I may be wrong about in my assumptions. Thanks.

[JRV]

@JCN, to organize my thoughts as clearly as possible:

KKM, PMM, Agency, Staccato, et al. make compensators that have proper expansion chambers—the “muzzle” of the comp is closely bored to the external diameter of the bullet, which diverts expanding gasses that cannot physically pass through the bullet to the nearest exit: the ports. It happens in an instant, but that moment is what makes proper comped guns shoot flat. It’s also why proper open guns shoot noticeable, visible clouds of gasses several feet in the air.

A well-designed comp will efficiently redirect expanding gasses in a large enough volume that they mitigate recoil. The downward force can be so great that you typically (especially in tilting barrel designs) need to reduce recoil spring weight to get the gun to cycle reliably.

A bushing comp will let the vast majority of the expanding gasses follow the path of least resistance and pass around the bullet through the oversized “muzzle.” If there is any upward “diversion” of gasses, it’s extremely inefficient—you’re better off tuning recoil springs to match the load than getting a bushing comp.

Sig has designed a gun around shooting minor-PF loads through an overbored bushing comp. They are then marketing it as a “compensated” pistol with up to (magic marketing language) 30% less recoil… and charging just about double for it.

To me, that’s super sleazy. It would be like (stealing your F&F example) if Subaru made a WRX that was just a body package and a fake boost gauge, threw in a cold air intake, sold it for twice the money, and marketed it as “up to” 30% faster.