Reputable (Mil-Spec Or Better) Manufacturer vs. Home Build AR-15

[OlongJohnson]

Of course you're entitled to your opinion.

The point I and several others have been making is that Colt, BCM and all the others don't possess any magic. All they have is correct engineering, manufacturing and procedures. Guns are just machines. If the parts are compatible in the details of their design, manufactured correctly, and assembled correctly, then the machines have to work. Period. It doesn't matter where they're assembled or by whom.

[Toonces]

Not to beat a dead horse.

But what got my feathers ruffled was the word versus.

BCM had an AR-15 go 30,000+ rounds under the tutelage of Pat Rogers and many other examples (from Colt and BCM). Do I think the rifles that guys on this forum can go toe to toe with those Colt and BCM guns and hold their own on demand?

Pretty much no, I don't. Do I think they could put their guns together well and maybe to that some day level?

Sure.

I'm just being honest.

God Bless,

Brandon

Every part in my upper is from Colt, BCM, or DD. The lower is Noveske and Colt. Based on what is advertised, I would guess the same parts they are using when building their uppers. What secret sauce do you think they have that can't be duplicated by a knowledgeable individual?

ETA: I started my reply and then made supper for my family. OJ posted his similar thoughts while I was away.

[orionz06]

I think this thread has pretty much covered all the bases. I'm seriously bothered by the trope that people working on guns are either Bubba at his kitchen table or Bill Wilson's employees, and nothing in between.

Someone who can build custom cars and motorcycles, build bicycles from bare frames and components (for exactly the same reasons one would do the same with an AR), solve reasonably difficult engineering problems, has a pretty good set of tools and zero hesitation if he needs to buy another, etc., should be able to do some machine-specific research and figure out how to do an effective and safe action cleanup or select and assemble quality AR parts that will work well together, even working at a kitchen table.

Most people need to google which end of the screwdriver they hold... It really is that bad.

[Soggy]

I spent a lot of years with my head buried in fiddle-fuck, and it's just not for me anymore, and was almost entirely a waste of time in hindsight.

I hope you don't consider it to much of a wast of time. I found "the chart" and all the learning that was going on in those days very interesting and informative, and it advanced the knowledge of the community. I have a 6920 in my safe because of it.

On the other hand, I suppose deciding what is a waste of time and what is a legit hobby is best left to the individual.

[BWT]

Of course you're entitled to your opinion.

The point I and several others have been making is that Colt, BCM and all the others don't possess any magic. All they have is correct engineering, manufacturing and procedures. Guns are just machines. If the parts are compatible in the details of their design, manufactured correctly, and assembled correctly, then the machines have to work. Period. It doesn't matter where they're assembled or by whom.

But do you have the procedures and do you use the same parts? Are you able to competently perform those procedures?

Where did you get those procedures? How are you sure you have all of their procedures (wouldn't it be in their interest to keep that proprietary)?

That'd be my question and I'm saying this genuinely from the heart; not being petty.

Every part in my upper is from Colt, BCM, or DD. The lower is Noveske and Colt. Based on what is advertised, I would guess the same parts they are using when building their uppers. What secret sauce do you think they have that can't be duplicated by a knowledgeable individual?

I would have the same sentiment.

I can appreciate both of your points of view, and what I'd offer is a little bit more pessimistic about the mechanical aptitude of the average joe and even if said aptitude is there having access to said documentation for said process/procedures.

ETA: I started my reply and then made supper for my family. OJ posted his similar thoughts while I was away.

Don't they know there's nothing more important than internet debates? Just kidding. It sounds like your priorities are right. We'll be here all week .

I guess what it boils down to me is known good.

I know what BCM has to offer; I haven't assembled an AR myself because honestly ones with a lifetime warranty are widely available that are of great quality for a reasonable price.

For instance, and I may land myself in hot water here. There's a famous AR-15 armorer that a lot of us (myself included) would jump at an opportunity to take a class from. I bought a complete lower receiver from their company and I believe it was shipped with a buffer weight that was too heavy for it to properly function (shot it through a midlength gas system using Federal XM193) and a rear take down pin that wasn't installed properly. (ETA: He works for said company I believe as a product designer/head armorer).

That's from a known good company. Now, I look at each individual on each individual forum and I don't know that guy's background and I don't know if that guy's background would be applicable. A life time of assembling complex machinery doesn't mean you know how many ft-lbs Colt tightens their barrels to or if they use proprietary go/no-go gauges what those values are to verify the gun is in spec?

So, I guess to a degree; I'd question the capable person because if they don't have the procedural documentation. Colt's spent 40-50 years perfecting that procedure (who would've thought millions of rounds down range in carbines would've resulted in an o-ring and a different stiffness plastic insert under the extractor would fix that problem? What other lessons were learned?) and BCM probably reverse engineered that procedure or some other way obtained that procedure from Colt; to be completely candid.

Out of legitimate curiousity. How did you guys get your training? Armorer schools? Trademens by profession? Friends with Jim Hodge? Professional Engineers?

Do you use any procedure for assembling an AR-15?

God Bless,

Brandon

[OlongJohnson]

You used to be able to get the factory armorer's manual from Colt Canada off the web. I have a PDF, it's what I follow. There are probably other copies out there.

[BWT]

You used to be able to get the factory armorer's manual from Colt Canada off the web. I have a PDF, it's what I follow. There are probably other copies out there.

Fair enough. Does it give all the assembly information? Never been to an armorer school or gone through an armorer's manual.

God Bless,

Brandon

[Toonces]

I hope you don't consider it to much of a wast of time. I found "the chart" and all the learning that was going on in those days very interesting and informative, and it advanced the knowledge of the community. I have a 6920 in my safe because of it.

On the other hand, I suppose deciding what is a waste of time and what is a legit hobby is best left to the individual.

I agree. Even though rob_s and I disagree on the topic of this thread (I believe we are talking about two different classes of builders), "The Chart" was very valuable. It took a high level of knowledge (for the day) to populate the chart, and all of us have been beneficiaries. It made it easier to be knowledgeable about ARs, and I am thankful for the effort it took to assemble it.

[StraitR]

I hope you don't consider it to much of a wast of time. I found "the chart" and all the learning that was going on in those days very interesting and informative, and it advanced the knowledge of the community. I have a 6920 in my safe because of it.

On the other hand, I suppose deciding what is a waste of time and what is a legit hobby is best left to the individual.

It truly was, the good ole days.

During a time when the AR market was teeming with growth and misinformation, Rob did the AR community an enormous favor with The Chart. It wasn't just the act of collecting and parsing data, it was his flushing out all the "just as good as" marketing and fanboy BS by approaching every manufacturer, top to bottom, with the same questionnaire. The answers were revealing, but not nearly as telling as some "mil-spec" manufacturer's refusal to participate.

It was quite a glorious time to be an AR enthusiast.

ETA: My thoughts on the thread topic...

Serious use (ie. LEO patrol/Civilian HD) carbines should be factory built by a reputable manufacturer. I also agree with Rob's list (BCM, Colt, DD, and KAC)

Hobby/fun/hunting = Home built or factory, whatever floats your boat.

[OlongJohnson]

Fair enough. Does it give all the assembly information? Never been to an armorer school or gone through an armorer's manual.

God Bless,

Brandon

That didn't take long to google...

https://www.coltcanada.com/assets/10044s-2005-09-20.pdf