Accountability for Missed shots in LE Qualifications

[WobblyPossum]

While I would love to live in a world where all LEOs were trained to a high enough standard that an agency could afford to sideline anyone who tossed one off target, that’s not the world I live in. The VAST majority of LEOs are not trained to a level where they can pretty much guarantee never missing the target on a qual. You’d probably have half your agency sidelined on any given qual at most of the agencies I have experience with. I’m a fan of scoring systems that penalize shots off target by subtracting points such as the previously mentioned Ohio state qualification. You can tailor the amount of points subtracted for a miss to your unit or agency requirements. I think that a specialized unit such as a SWAT team or a felony warrant unit can afford to have a higher qual standard where a single miss is a failure because being on a specialized unit is not a job requirement for everyone and not making the cut doesn’t mean you risk getting kicked off the force.

[AMC]

I'd rather keep this thread on track. I'm looking to see how common accountability for misses in qualifications is, and how that is done. I'd rather not debate the merits of this or that qualification or standard.

I will note, however, that the qualification we would be basing ours on has been in use by that agency for several years, in one of the largest departments in the state, in a very litigious region, and has survived several legal challenges. Maybe I'm not doing a bang up job of explaining it.

[Grouse870]

100% here. You get three tries on qual day/night if you throw a round off the silhouette or don't make the score it counts as a fail. If you can't pass within the 3 tries You have to go to remedial training within 2 days with a different instructor. Have to shoot 400/500 or 80% you can lose points if you don't make the time either. Its a 50 round course. We are changing our qual to 25 yards for this year but the standards are the same.

[Coyotesfan97]

My agency’s miminum qual score on the AZPOST course is 220. The AZPOST standard is 210. There are seven shots at the 25 on the course. Three from the draw and four from ready gun. The time limits are very generous. So using AZPOST standards you could miss all seven and still pass. We use a modified TQ19 target. Any miss outside the line is five points off.

Our patrol rifle qual requires all shots in the silhouette. Any round in the snow is a DQ.

[mark7]

At my shop and at the college based police academy where I teach, target misses are just minus 5. As long as you get a passing score you're good to go

One of our guys or gals did this to the target stand at 15 yards and of course denied doing it.

[LtDave]

I've heard, but can't confirm, that the U.S. Secret Service scores any hit off of the silhouette as a fail.

AZ DPS SWAT uses that standard. Regular troopers just have to meet the minimum score.

[Chemsoldier]

One thing that irritates me in qualification is when some shooters deliberately do not engage at a particular distance to save rounds to fire extra shots at an "easier" distance. You see it in US Army rifle qualification, where some Soldiers do not even attempt the 300 meter engagements to save rounds for extra shots at the closer targets.

Maybe, something a little less than "any miss is a DQ" and more than the status quo would be that a shooter would get an automatic failure if they fail to get at least one hit at a given distance in the course of fire. There are some COFs where out of 50 rounds there might be only 6 at 25 yards for instance. Incentivize the need to practice at all distances.

[KeeFus]

One thing that irritates me in qualification is when some shooters deliberately do not engage at a particular distance to save rounds to fire extra shots at an "easier" distance. You see it in US Army rifle qualification, where some Soldiers do not even attempt the 300 meter engagements to save rounds for extra shots at the closer targets.

Maybe, something a little less than "any miss is a DQ" and more than the status quo would be that a shooter would get an automatic failure if they fail to get at least one hit at a given distance in the course of fire. There are some COFs where out of 50 rounds there might be only 6 at 25 yards for instance. Incentivize the need to practice at all distances.

When I was in the Army that was a common problem.

In LE, the way we have addressed it is to start them at the 25 yard-line and then mark the targets (people hate shooting at the 25...and it’s only 10 rounds...). As a matter of fact, when I developed our 2019 day pistol qualification, I intentionally started them at 25 to alleviate that problem. It also helps to have a manageable group of shooters with at least two instructors. Catching them cheating and they fail that CoF and have to re-shoot. Then it’s only you and that person on the line and it’s easy to count the shots.

[Hdmotorcop]

I've read through the four pages of posts. While I'm not a firearms instructor at work, I do have some questions here.

I completely agree that holding to a higher/tighter is an honorable goal, but what do your agencies allow/accommodate for training & practice? Where I'm at we do a spring and fall qualification that is about 6-8hrs: Qual course, some plates with stress, rifle or shotgun, taser, ASP, some DT and MAYBE some scenarios. Usually 3-4 instructors to about 7-12 officers. Now this all well and good. I personally try to get out a couple times a month and either shoot with my boys or an IDPA night at one of the local ranges. A lot of guys don't. BUT and it's a big but..... no time afford to shoot beyond qual days and you get a 50 round box of ammo when you leave Qual to reload your mags....that's it!

No real incentive or supplement to get the guys out to shoot on their own unless they're a "gun guy".

So I think what I'm getting at is, changing up your Quals may be a good thing, but you've gotta get trigger time for your officers if you want to see individual improvement.

[Grouse870]

Easier said than done though. We have training before our qual. 100 rounds are provided as well as instructor time. It’s scheduled well in advance with reminders. And without fail maybe 6-8 people show and typically not our weakest shooters. Short of paying people to come out and shoot some people just don’t care.