Grip angle, grip strength, shooting injuries and sight indexing

[JCN]

With the casting/drop it in from above presentation, I see the dot earlier in the presentation than with a direct draw. With a longer trigger like a stockish Glock, I am able to use that time to manipulate the trigger as the dot is dropping onto the target. With a more direct presentation, the dot appears later, but that isn't an issue with a short, light trigger like in a 2011 Open gun.

Going to disagree with this one.

My normal competition gun is a double action first shot.

Being able to break the trigger as soon as the dot is visible knowing you don’t have to track, move or stop the dot is huge. THAT is the benefit of a direct draw of a casting.

You see the dot and you know the muzzle is on so you break it.

That’s the benefit of a direct draw. You don’t need to see it way early because you don’t need to track or move it more than a few MOA.

I’ll prep my trigger and when I see dot it’s already on target. I can break early or I can break with a little extra refinement. But no sweep.

I never want the muzzle angling in from somewhere else. If that makes sense. It’s not ever worth that trade off.

I think the distance here was actually 50 yards (hence the low impacts). Still straight draw with a double action shot.

[JCN]

Basically there is no scenario where you would want to impart additional angular momentum to the muzzle (because then you have to stop it later).

You can get away with it, but there’s no functional reason for it.

It’s also not the holster.

No holster requires that you point the muzzle to the sky to get it out.

[RevolverRob]

FWIW, my preference is for oval grips over square grips.

Because my curved fingers aren’t flat.

So not sure I buy the square grip theory.

Right, curved fingers aren't flat, but they aren't round either.

Just lift up your hand and curl your index finger around to touch the tip of your thumb and look at the shape you get. Is it oval, round, square? I would guess it is actually pentagonal.





I think this is why the 1911 is one the best grip shapes ever. It is rounded on the front strap, allowing the relatively curved fingers to apply even rearward and lateral pressure to the gun. While the square(ish) backstrap fits firmly into that square section of the pentagon formed by your hand and curled fingers, allowing natural even forward pressure and plenty of lateral support from the palm. Then you have a big section for the support hand to apply lateral pressure with and it is a nearly perfect fit to the shape the hands make when shooting.

You can mimic this in almost any gun with a square'ish backstrap and oval'ish front strap. But if you have a square'ish front strap, you can get similar effect by putting an edge into the corner of the pentagon (arrow) and apply significant rearward and lateral pressure.

[Clusterfrack]

FWIW, my preference is for oval grips over square grips.

Because my curved fingers aren’t flat.

So not sure I buy the square grip theory.

"Square-ish". My favorite is the Shadow2, where there's an unambiguous rectangular profile and prefer slightly rounded panels that allow purchase for the support hand thumb-base.

[JCN]

Right, curved fingers aren't flat, but they aren't round either.

Just lift up your hand and curl your index finger around to touch the tip of your thumb and look at the shape you get. Is it oval, round, square? I would guess it is actually pentagonal.





I think this is why the 1911 is one the best grip shapes ever. It is rounded on the front strap, allowing the relatively curved fingers to apply even rearward and lateral pressure to the gun. While the square(ish) backstrap fits firmly into that square section of the pentagon formed by your hand and curled fingers, allowing natural even forward pressure and plenty of lateral support from the palm. Then you have a big section for the support hand to apply lateral pressure with and it is a nearly perfect fit to the shape the hands make when shooting.

You can mimic this in almost any gun with a square'ish backstrap and oval'ish front strap. But if you have a square'ish front strap, you can get similar effect by putting an edge into the corner of the pentagon (arrow) and apply significant rearward and lateral pressure.

I don’t hold a gun like that though.

This is my grip on a gun.



Slab side and rounded front and rear.

[JCN]

"Square-ish". My favorite is the Shadow2, where there's an unambiguous rectangular profile and prefer slightly rounded panels that allow purchase for the support hand thumb-base.

I add palm swell sides so it’s less rectangular lol. That’s mainly so my trigger finger is positioned the way I want it enough.

I use flat sides on a TSO but curved on a Czechmate when coupled with a flat trigger.

[RevolverRob]

I don’t hold a gun like that though.

This is my grip on a gun.

Attachment 96890

Slab side and rounded front and rear.

We're probably talking past one another in this regard. To me your grip is not rounded front and back. Bear in mind my day job is morphologist - so I look at the angle of each joint and recognize that it is impossible to make an arc through joints that flex like human hands do and therefore they can never been round.

But stepping aside this terminological difference - what I find is that I want 'edges' to bite into the corners formed by my flexing joints, this allows me to reduce the amount of force I need to use to hold onto the squirming/moving object. But you may use a different approach to mitigating movement on the gun - for instance thumb pressure. I don't actually use a ton of shooting hand thumb pressure on my gun in a lateral application. I shoot a high thumb, riding 1911 thumb safety, and if I apply a lot of lateral pressure, I run the risk of hitting the slide and causing a malfunction in that way.

[JCN]

We're probably talking past one another in this regard. To me your grip is not rounded front and back. Bear in mind my day job is morphologist - so I look at the angle of each joint and recognize that it is impossible to make an arc through joints that flex like human hands do and therefore they can never been round.

But stepping aside this terminological difference - what I find is that I want 'edges' to bite into the corners formed by my flexing joints, this allows me to reduce the amount of force I need to use to hold onto the squirming/moving object. But you may use a different approach to mitigating movement on the gun - for instance thumb pressure. I don't actually use a ton of shooting hand thumb pressure on my gun in a lateral application. I shoot a high thumb, riding 1911 thumb safety, and if I apply a lot of lateral pressure, I run the risk of hitting the slide and causing a malfunction in that way.

I can get on board with that.

Instead of edges biting, I want the Velcro stippling and pointy nubs on a curve that grip my fingers evenly rather than dig or bite in one particular corner. The front of a Shadow 2 is a good example of this.

The Wilson Combat 365 grips are much more oval than the factory P365 grips as well.

[RevolverRob]

I can get on board with that.

Instead of edges biting, I want the Velcro stippling and pointy nubs on a curve that grip my fingers evenly rather than dig or bite in one particular corner. The front of a Shadow 2 is a good example of this.

The Wilson Combat 365 grips are much more oval than the factory P365 grips as well.

I'm picking up what you're putting down in this regard.

There is definitely individual preference and of course individual variation in grip. Your grip is basically impossible for me to hold with my hands (and carpal tunnel) I would be in pain in a few minutes. Hence when I end up opting to wrap around the gun as much as possible (the grip I showed is actually very close to what I end up with on my guns). I'm also not able to maintain the straighter thumb some folks have and simultaneously curve my fingers over to grip the gun. I can't tell if it's a muscle memory thing or a joint thing. Because I have broken, sprained, or otherwise jammed every single joint and finger on both hands multiple times, I'm inclined to believe it is a joint thing. So, this could also be a limiting factor in my grip decisions.

But we can agree on one thing...Glock humps suck.

[Clusterfrack]

Woulda shoulda coulda.

That’s why good shooters aren’t necessarily good instructors… they try and mold students to what they do rather than help the student achieve their potentials.

That’s also why I don’t like group classes. Because that dogmatic didactic style doesn’t always address individual limitations.

Regarding top 10 shooter and instructing… agree that someone doesn’t need that level of performance to teach well… but it’s my bias that I’ll look towards someone like Max who is top 5 consistently and has a long teaching history before someone like Hwansik who is relatively new to shooting and doesn’t have a long history of intellectual achievement.

I take his advice in a second tier category. Interesting and might have nugget of truth or might be complete BS.

Much different null hypothesis testing in my part versus trying to internalize something Max or Stoeger might say.

My strong preference for Pistol-Forum--especially in a technical thread--is to focus on techniques and principles, rather than criticize people.

Hwansik isn't here to defend himself and 1000's of non-PF members are going to read this, so here goes: At USPSA CO Nationals, Hwansik finished 2nd in 2017 and 2018, and 3rd in 2020, so I would count him as a Tier 1 competitor. He has helped a lot people think about shooting in a sensible and methodical way, and I hear great things about his in-person classes. He's a super nice guy as well. I would like to train with him sometime soon.

What I especially like about Hwansik's approach to grip is he doesn't prescribe the One Right Way to grip a gun. He provides at least 3 possible techniques, and demonstrates how to test which works best for any person. As well, I appreciate how he separates grip from the other aspects of the Isosceles posture. IMO, he has the best material available on this, although a lot of it is behind the PSTG paywall.