Grip angle, grip strength, shooting injuries and sight indexing

[Clusterfrack]

Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification. I have heard other high performers recommend crush… mainly because they’re strong enough to make it work.

Max doesn’t crush and I physically can’t without injury so that’s where I’ve evolved.

The less trigger press deflection, the less grip strength is needed to keep the gun returning vertically.

I hold on to the gun so it doesn’t wobble but I don’t crush in attempt to actively resist recoil.

That’s where I like the “velcro sticky hand” thought rather than “stuck in a vise” thought.

I use grip to marry the gun to my hand evenly, not to prevent it from moving.

That's a good way to describe it. But really, those high performers who crush the gun should know better than to recommend that technique to everyone. I would argue that it's better to develop a good trigger pull instead of trying to use overgripping to mask a problem.

[Robinson]

I think Rob Leatham also advocates a strong grip on the gun.

Anyway, this has been informative and gives me something to actively work on.

[Clusterfrack]

I think Rob Leatham also advocates a strong grip on the gun.

Anyway, this has been informative and gives me something to actively work on.

I hear great things about Rob as an in-person instructor. However, I have found his video and written material nearly impossible to understand. It's almost like he's being purposely vague and confusing.

This doesn't need to be mysterious or complicated, and with high-speed video in nearly ever cell phone it's relatively easy to diagnose grip issues.

[RevolverRob]

I'd be very interested in what a 'natural grip' looks like in a pictorial over view (I like to study pictures).

I do find like others, a square grip fits better. Which maybe should not surprise us when we consider what we use rounded grips for...

What has round/oval grips? Baseball bats, golf clubs, hammers, tennis rackets. And what are all of those things supposed to do in the hand? Move. What is a handgun not supposed to do in the hand? Move. (it will move, but we want to minimize movement).

Grab a square bar and twist it in hand vs. a round bar - flat with square'ish edges is better for not twisting/squirming in the hand.

As much as I love HKs, this is where they have gone horribly wrong in design in the last 15 years. The stupid spiderman ergo grips are trash compared to a good old USP grip frame.

I'm convinced this is one reason why I love the 1911 so much, it's a rectangle with rounded front corners and fairly sharp rear corners. Allowing good grip from curved fingers applying rearward pressure while the square edges dig into the palm not allowing it to walk around on you too much. In other words, I can hold the gun firmly in hand, even with only a couple of fingers without having to crush the absolute shit out of it.

BTW, this is also true for smaller squares vs. larger squares. I am convinced the real secret to making the P365 such a good shooting gun overall is getting the grip small enough that it most hands can completely cover it and hold onto it like a piece of square bar. Boom, gun doesn't walk around, doesn't take the world's strongest grip to hold it, all the sudden grip issues go away, small gun shoots like a big gun. This is why the P365 is a better shooting gun than the Glock 43.

[Clusterfrack]

...BTW, this is also true for smaller squares vs. larger squares. I am convinced the real secret to making the P365 such a good shooting gun overall is getting the grip small enough that it most hands can completely cover it and hold onto it like a piece of square bar. Boom, gun doesn't walk around, doesn't take the world's strongest grip to hold it, all the sudden grip issues go away, small gun shoots like a big gun. This is why the P365 is a better shooting gun than the Glock 43.

This the the only part of your post that I disagree with--at least for me. I find that the largest square-sided grip that permits good trigger mechanics is best. My support hand needs to have as much grip area to grip as possible.

My hands are smedium sized, and I can shoot a Glock 21/20 much better than a 43. One of best parts about the 365 is that you can get bigger grip frames.

[JCN]

That's a good way to describe it. But really, those high performers who crush the gun should know better than to recommend that technique to everyone. I would argue that it's better to develop a good trigger pull instead of trying to use overgripping to mask a problem.

Woulda shoulda coulda.

That’s why good shooters aren’t necessarily good instructors… they try and mold students to what they do rather than help the student achieve their potentials.

That’s also why I don’t like group classes. Because that dogmatic didactic style doesn’t always address individual limitations.

Regarding top 10 shooter and instructing… agree that someone doesn’t need that level of performance to teach well… but it’s my bias that I’ll look towards someone like Max who is top 5 consistently and has a long teaching history before someone like Hwansik who is relatively new to shooting and doesn’t have a long history of intellectual achievement.

I take his advice in a second tier category. Interesting and might have nugget of truth or might be complete BS.

Much different null hypothesis testing in my part versus trying to internalize something Max or Stoeger might say.

[RevolverRob]

This the the only part of your post that I disagree with--at least for me. I find that the largest square-sided grip that permits good trigger mechanics is best. My support hand needs to have as much grip area to grip as possible.

My hands are smedium sized, and I can shoot a Glock 21/20 much better than a 43. One of best parts about the 365 is that you can get bigger grip frames.

For me G21/20 is one of the few grip frames that causes me instant pain merely holding it just firmly enough to make it function. BUT that's at least in part a function of a pre-existing carpal tunnel injury. The large frame Glocks are a no go for me. Oddly enough I find the USP fine though...Something about the G21 causes my hand to extend in such a way allowing my radial nerve to be compressed when holding the gun.

Anyways, I do also like larger squares for the most part. But somewhere in there (again it might be my compromised hand strength playing in) the ability to wrap more of the gun up with the shooting hand improves my shooting at speed and accuracy - but that is only true for small and light guns. I do not find that true for larger heavier guns.

So much so, I'd call it generalizable - because if that were true for larger/heavier guns, Mauser C96s would be the best shooting guns of all time and 1911s would be dead and gone. Broomhandles are good for brooms...not for guns.

That all said, I will also concede and acknowledge, I think the margin for 'small to too small' is on the whole a smaller margin than the 'large to too large' one. Only one gun I've ever found is too large for me to shoot (the large frame Glocks), by contrast, I've tried plenty of small guns that are basically impossible to shoot.

[JCN]

This doesn't need to be mysterious or complicated, and with high-speed video in nearly ever cell phone it's relatively easy to diagnose grip issues.

And add a red dot for real time dry trigger press mechanics and there you go.

That’s how I learned to shoot and why I don’t think it’s particularly necessary to have in person instruction to learn to shoot well.

I use video and slo motion a lot for self diagnosis. It’s a mainstay of many technical sports.

To the point where I would trust the slow motion video over an instructor who doesn’t use that at all.

I'd be very interested in what a 'natural grip' looks like in a pictorial over view (I like to study pictures).

I do find like others, a square grip fits better. Which maybe should not surprise us when we consider what we use rounded grips for...

What has round/oval grips? Baseball bats, golf clubs, hammers, tennis rackets. And what are all of those things supposed to do in the hand? Move. What is a handgun not supposed to do in the hand? Move. (it will move, but we want to minimize movement).

Grab a square bar and twist it in hand vs. a round bar - flat with square'ish edges is better for not twisting/squirming in the hand.

As much as I love HKs, this is where they have gone horribly wrong in design in the last 15 years. The stupid spiderman ergo grips are trash compared to a good old USP grip frame.

I'm convinced this is one reason why I love the 1911 so much, it's a rectangle with rounded front corners and fairly sharp rear corners. Allowing good grip from curved fingers applying rearward pressure while the square edges dig into the palm not allowing it to walk around on you too much. In other words, I can hold the gun firmly in hand, even with only a couple of fingers without having to crush the absolute shit out of it.

BTW, this is also true for smaller squares vs. larger squares. I am convinced the real secret to making the P365 such a good shooting gun overall is getting the grip small enough that it most hands can completely cover it and hold onto it like a piece of square bar. Boom, gun doesn't walk around, doesn't take the world's strongest grip to hold it, all the sudden grip issues go away, small gun shoots like a big gun. This is why the P365 is a better shooting gun than the Glock 43.

FWIW, my preference is for oval grips over square grips.

Because my curved fingers aren’t flat.

So not sure I buy the square grip theory.

[Robinson]

I hear great things about Rob as an in-person instructor. However, I have found his video and written material nearly impossible to understand. It's almost like he's being purposely vague and confusing.

This doesn't need to be mysterious or complicated, and with high-speed video in nearly ever cell phone it's relatively easy to diagnose grip issues.

I understand what you are saying.

The benefit I am getting from this is a firm realization that I need to raise the bar on my trigger press. I don't know if that would necessarily lead me to grip the gun less firmly, but I think this has highlighted for me that my next thing to focus on is trigger press.

[GJM]

I believe there are multiple methods to achieve a similar goal.

I was just out doing presentations to an eight inch steel at 30 yards with my Open gun. It got me thinking about different holsters and different triggers. In my Open gun, a direct draw is more natural because of how little I need to lift the muzzle to clear the holster.

I also think trigger comes into play. With the casting/drop it in from above presentation, I see the dot earlier in the presentation than with a direct draw. With a longer trigger like a stockish Glock, I am able to use that time to manipulate the trigger as the dot is dropping onto the target. With a more direct presentation, the dot appears later, but that isn't an issue with a short, light trigger like in a 2011 Open gun.

Contrast these two tasks -- drawing to one shot on an eight inch steel at 30 yards versus shooting two shots to an Open target at 7 yards. Shooting two predictive shots at 7 yards, you need the gun presented such that you can fire two shots quickly, but less dot refinement is involved. Shooting the steel at 30 with a long trigger and you may well want to work trigger and dot together late in the presentation.