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Thread: Hit Factor Scoring as an Evaluation of Skill

  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zincwarrior View Post
    Except they are all on time. A good USPSA shooter is going for all alphas, same as an IDPA or steel shooter. The only real difference is that steel shooters will kick your ass on transitions, because they are speed focused on transitions.

    The point of my earlier post was that all are great in that the shooter can personalize their practice with the same methodology. If they have a concern that the target size is too big, well reduce the target size.
    Dunno. We can agree to disagree. Going for all alphas... if you agree that the amount of time a USPSA shooter would spend to get alphas on an open target versus tuxedo versus flanking no-shoots differs, then you’re agreeing with my point.

    That you might go for 95% alphas on an open if you can save time, but you’re going for 100% alphas if no-shoots flank the A-zone. How much time you take to get that confirmation level is what we are talking about.

    IDPA you might go for 98% 0-ring.

  2. #162
    USPSA can give you as "no fail" of a shooting challenge as you want to have. No shoots behind a plate rack etc.

    People generalize about shooting for As VS guaranteeing As in USPSA but it all depends on the risk level on the shot.

  3. #163
    I should add that most people would be surprised at how accurate USPSA shooters can be when you give them a target that forces them to be careful. We've had local matches with 50+ shooters where there were mini poppers with no-shoots behind or plate racks with no-shoots behind, and during tear down I was always a little surprised at how few people hit the no-shoots.

    At the Tim Herron class I took I was also surprised to see how some of the "tactical" students racked up a bazillion penalties. Like 9 mikes and a couple NS over just 3 stage runs. Not to say that they were bad because they were "tactical timmies" but some of them clearly did not train to perform at a high rate of speed and then they tried to burn down the class stage with predictable results. Others were actually solid shooters but let the time pressure drive them to shoot with insufficient visual patience. IMO this strongly reinforced to me the point I've seen Matt Pranka make, which is that you have to be training to a speed that is "faster than real life" so that when you want to go fast, you are in control and in your comfort zone vs being totally out of control. I know people always say that you just have to have the discipline to make every shot count and guarantee those perfect hits, etc. but even under mild time pressure in a class setting I did not see most people exercise that level of discipline, even when they preach it.
    Last edited by Eyesquared; 05-21-2021 at 06:29 PM.

  4. #164
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    We should also note for us Production shooters yes we're going for all Aphas (and failing spectacularly in my case ).

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by NH Shooter View Post
    Having come into the world of handgun shooting nearly 40 years ago with a long stint in NRA bullseye shooting, I can absolutely relate to this observation.
    This closely parallels my experience. I enjoyed NRA bullseye, and it helped me build great fundamentals. But it definitely did slow me down for a long time in the shooting games.

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    Dunno. We can agree to disagree. Going for all alphas... if you agree that the amount of time a USPSA shooter would spend to get alphas on an open target versus tuxedo versus flanking no-shoots differs, then you’re agreeing with my point.

    That you might go for 95% alphas on an open if you can save time, but you’re going for 100% alphas if no-shoots flank the A-zone. How much time you take to get that confirmation level is what we are talking about.

    IDPA you might go for 98% 0-ring.
    I absolutely agree that no one is really "going for all alphas," and your example of open v. tuxedo v. flanking no-shoot target illustrates that. As a USPSA MD on an indoor range, I regularly used a ton of no-shoots to add difficultly to what would otherwise be pretty simple stages. While it was possible to shoot stages like that treating the targets like they were open targets (and that was a great way to get a stage win), it was pretty terrible match strategy.

    I wrote this about a decade ago to show it isn't even smart to guarantee all As in most circumstances:

    Quote Originally Posted by joshs View Post
    Sorry in advance for the extremely long post. If you don’t like math, you may want to stop reading now. There are many conflicting explanations given for how accurate you should shoot based on a given scoring system. I’ve attempted to figure out a more exact balance of speed and accuracy.

    I find the different scoring systems used in practical shooting as an excellent example of how penalties for bad accuracy can influence speed. It's easiest if you think about the IDPA and IPSC scoring in terms of hit factor, or points per second.

    IDPA has a fixed hit factor of 2.

    In IPSC, the hit factor varies depending on how many points you shoot per second on a given stage. So, in order to know whether you should shoot for points or accuracy you need to estimate your hit factor for the stage, this usually comes with experience. Once you know how long it takes for you to shoot certain types of target arrays clean, you add these up and come up with the estimated hit factor. Or, if there is another shooter of similar skill who shoots the stage well before you, you can look at their hit factor.

    With a hit factor it is now possible to figure out how to balance speed and accuracy. This would be easy, if the options were A or C (-0 or -1). If this were the case, any time you had to make the decision between a -0 or -1 in IDPA, if you could change the outcome by taking .49 (this number is the balance of speed and accuracy) or less, it would be worth it. (Hit factor of 2 means 1 point costs you .5 of a second, so if could get the point in less than half a second, you should.) However, the options are trickier than either/or. When accepting a C or -1, there is still a chance that the shot will land in the A or -0, since the inner target zones are essentially "part of" the outer target zones. The variable needed is: How often when you accept a C or -1 (not a perfectly called A or -0), do you still end up with an A or -0? For purposes of demonstration, the assumed probability is .5. This is probably a very conservative estimate, especially for more experienced shooters who are more likely to get to the uncalled A or -0 due to a much more refined index.

    Assuming that .5 is the correct probability, using IDPA's fixed hit factor, the balance of speed and accuracy would be .249. (The original .49 from above, multiplied by the probability of not getting an "uncalled" A.) This number would of course shrink as the hit factor goes up (a hit factor as low as 2 is almost unheard of in IPSC) and as the probability of getting the uncalled A goes up (through increased shooter skill).

    Given these factors, it is easy to see why experienced shooters will often "accept" a C or -1. The time penalty to guarantee the A or -0 is greater than the penalty assessed by the scoring systems. This isn't to say that, at the margin, different scoring systems don't promote more accuracy. A hit factor of 8 (relatively common in IPSC) would change the above balance from .249 to .065 (assuming major scoring).

    The point of all this silly math is to show why people hate economists . . . err I mean to figure out a shooter's accuracy incentives. The balance of speed and accuracy number can be very beneficial. If you can influence the outcome to guarantee the A in less time than the balance number, then you should take the time to do so.

    Shooters often get this wrong on close range hosing stages. At close range, it only takes a couple of hundredths to guarantee an A instead of accepting a C/A. Excepting a high hit factor with major scoring, it is almost always worth taking these hundredths to guarantee the A.
    The interesting thing about hit factor scoring is that the incentives can actually change based on expected hit factor. In practice, this tends to be much harder to implement in a way that maximizes results. In my personal experience, I get much better match performance in USPSA minor scoring attempting to shoot at least 90% of the available points. Shooting faster usually leads to more stage wins, but lower match performance.

    If you want to use hit factor to provide more room to grow in training, then the easiest way to manipulate the incentives is target size and scoring. Since you are bound to a specific target and scoring in your own training, you can create the exact balance of speed and accuracy incentive that believe is optimal.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Eyesquared View Post
    I should add that most people would be surprised at how accurate USPSA shooters can be when you give them a target that forces them to be careful. We've had local matches with 50+ shooters where there were mini poppers with no-shoots behind or plate racks with no-shoots behind, and during tear down I was always a little surprised at how few people hit the no-shoots.

    At the Tim Herron class I took I was also surprised to see how some of the "tactical" students racked up a bazillion penalties. Like 9 mikes and a couple NS over just 3 stage runs. Not to say that they were bad because they were "tactical timmies" but some of them clearly did not train to perform at a high rate of speed and then they tried to burn down the class stage with predictable results. Others were actually solid shooters but let the time pressure drive them to shoot with insufficient visual patience. IMO this strongly reinforced to me the point I've seen Matt Pranka make, which is that you have to be training to a speed that is "faster than real life" so that when you want to go fast, you are in control and in your comfort zone vs being totally out of control. I know people always say that you just have to have the discipline to make every shot count and guarantee those perfect hits, etc. but even under mild time pressure in a class setting I did not see most people exercise that level of discipline, even when they preach it.
    They are shooting as accurately as they need to. I present the Jason Bradley challenge for those who think uspsa shooters can’t be accurate (and this is at insane speeds)
    https://www.instagram.com/p/CPBJk5Tg...um=share_sheet
    And if anyone thinks it’s just trick shot parlor he got lucky stuff
    https://www.instagram.com/tv/CPJSA5A...um=share_sheet
    They can dial it in on demand if needed.
    "Shooting is 90% mental. The rest is in your head." -Nils

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by JCS View Post
    They are shooting as accurately as they need to. I present the Jason Bradley challenge for those who think uspsa shooters can’t be accurate (and this is at insane speeds)
    https://www.instagram.com/p/CPBJk5Tg...um=share_sheet
    And if anyone thinks it’s just trick shot parlor he got lucky stuff
    https://www.instagram.com/tv/CPJSA5A...um=share_sheet
    They can dial it in on demand if needed.
    I want to try this. I don’t think it’s unreasonable.

    Assuming a 1 second draw on 12 yard steel then moving to a 2 inch target at 9 yards in under a second doesn’t sound that bad.

  9. #169
    X-Ray Alpha goes after “processing speed” today, which is frequently mentioned on this forum. I’m unable to post a link for some reason. He really enjoys stirring the pot lol.

  10. #170
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    @JCS

    This was pretty straightforward.

    I’m calling it a pseudo Jason Bradley challenge because I used a smaller popper and the dimensions of the layout weren’t clear. I did put the shot shell at 9 yards like his challenge as I felt that was the most important detail of it.


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