EoTech Died/Need Recommendation

[HCM]

That’s a definite option, but one I’d prefer to avoid by simply having Aimpoint figure out a more realistic solution. Like, why can’t they make an Eotech-like device that isn’t an Eotech?

I can’t be such an outlier with this issue, and really don’t see why I should wear corrective lenses just for the astigmatism that’s doesn’t have any effect on the rest of my life...but, shrug.

EoTech is a hologram not an LED. Holograms use several times the power of an LED so it’s a losing proposition.

Honestly the pixelated hologram in the EO looks like shit. The circle dots in the Holosun / SIG look way better plus they figured out how to make the dot brighter than the circle. I would not mind if Aimpoint paid back the Chinesium crew by ripping off their circle dot design and making it with better QC.

I’m really hoping to look through the new circle dot MRO soon.

[HCM]

While anger at the Chinese gov with regard to COVID-19 is entirely correct and warranted, I’m confused as to what that has to do with Holosun as a company?

If they, for example, demonstrably stole tech or something like that I could absolutely see boycotting them, but if we avoid purchasing from any company whose government has done something underhanded or shitty, I’m afraid we wouldn’t be left with terribly many options.


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China copies everything, without regard for intellectual property, we don’t notice as much with firearms due to import restrictions but take a look at what is available from Norinco in Canada, South Africa etc. It’s not just something they do to the west, they do it each other too. From a Western POV it’s a very corrupt culture. From their POV if you are not cheating, stealing or cutting the line you are stupid.

The Chinese Government is an enemy of the West in general and the U.S. in particular. We are in a Cold War with them and have been since long before COVID-19. Conspiracy theories aside, their handling p, or more accurately non handling and cover up of the early stages of COVID-19 is directly responsible for the global pandemic so fuck them.

[Matt O]

China copies everything, without regard for intellectual property, we don’t notice as much with firearms due to import restrictions but take a look at what is available from Norinco in Canada, South Africa etc. It’s not just something they do to the west, they do it each other too. From a Western POV it’s a very corrupt culture. From their POV if you are not cheating, stealing or cutting the line you are stupid.

The Chinese Government is an enemy of the West in general and the U.S. in particular. We are in a Cold War with them and have been since long before COVID-19. Conspiracy theories aside, their handling p, or more accurately non handling and cover up of the early stages of COVID-19 is directly responsible for the global pandemic so fuck them.

We're getting a bit off the original topic here, but just to be clear - respectfully, you didn't actually address my point. Yes, the Chinese gov is an enemy of the US - no argument there. Yes, many Chinese companies do copy intellectual property and engage in business practices that we find dishonest. I'm not a fan of supporting that sort of behavior.

So, to get to the relevant point - did Holosun steal intellectual property? They've got the 68 MOA ring, but I'm fairly certain Eotech's patent on this expired a while ago, hence why even Vortex has a similar offering. I also see innovations from Holosun that aren't there on similar US-side products - e.g. side-loading battery tray on the new pistol RDS, 50,000 hour battery life on their holographic carbine optic, etc. So, as per my original comment, if they demonstrably stole tech, then yeah we definitely shouldn't be supporting them. If someone wants to dismiss them simply because they're Chinese, that's certainly a valid personal choice, but then we shouldn't ascribe stolen tech as the reason.

[WobblyPossum]

I think those are all true red dot sights vs actual holographics like the EOTechs. That difference is what makes them better for most people so it’s not just a brand thing.


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I think there’s more to it than LED red dot vs holographic sight. I believe the lens coating makes a big difference and is one of the reasons the RMR I tried had a perfect dot while the others do not but I can’t be sure. It’s just a feeling at the moment. I don’t have the resources to experiment.

[HCM]

We're getting a bit off the original topic here, but just to be clear - respectfully, you didn't actually address my point. Yes, the Chinese gov is an enemy of the US - no argument there. Yes, many Chinese companies do copy intellectual property and engage in business practices that we find dishonest. I'm not a fan of supporting that sort of behavior.

So, to get to the relevant point - did Holosun steal intellectual property? They've got the 68 MOA ring, but I'm fairly certain Eotech's patent on this expired a while ago, hence why even Vortex has a similar offering. I also see innovations from Holosun that aren't there on similar US-side products - e.g. side-loading battery tray on the new pistol RDS, 50,000 hour battery life on their holographic carbine optic, etc. So, as per my original comment, if they demonstrably stole tech, then yeah we definitely shouldn't be supporting them. If someone wants to dismiss them simply because they're Chinese, that's certainly a valid personal choice, but then we shouldn't ascribe stolen tech as the reason.

I did answer your question but to spell it out I don’t think Holosuns ring is stolen from EOTech. In fact I think theirs is better than EoTechs, that why I want Aimpoint to steal it and put it in a duty quality optic. I’m sure Holosun could make a duty quality optic if someone was willing to pay for them, iPhones being an example of the QC China can execute if but that is unlikely to happen.

The original Holosun/PA/SIG micro design was definitely stolen from Aimpoints -1 micro series though.

[Tokarev]

I’m sure Holosun could make a duty quality optic if someone was willing to pay...

Isn't this essentially what the SIG Romeo 4M and 4T are?

There's a newer version of the 4M that's apparently only available on the LE market. It looks like a T but doesn't have a solar panel. It also comes with the heavier T mount instead of the lighter slightly angled mount with Torx screw.

SIG seems shy about admitting that the Romeo is made by Holosun. Although the actual company may not be Holosun there is little doubt the optics originate in China. Possibly as a complete unit or possibly assembled in the US. Not sure what "assembly" consists of. It could mean the mount is put on and the optic is packaged for shipment on this end...


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[vcdgrips]

Re astigmatism

For me, the 2 moa dot of the AP Pro "blooms" much less than the 65 moa reticle surrounding the 1 moa dot of an EOTech, especially when I am uncorrected (-2.25 L/-1.50 right).



My Rev E actually held up in an 08 Pat Roger (RIP) class in which I did well. In fairness, I had fresh duracell AA batteries and confirmed zero at the beginning of the class.
Between my worsening astigmatism, the dollar for dollar EO-Tech buy back given how they conducted themselves, and a video I watched (IIRC) with an AP shooting a 10 shot 2 ish inch group at 50 yds, then the AP was taken off the gun and skidded across the ground to another shooter, skidded back and re mounted only to not lose zero, I was ready for the switch.


FWIW-I have spoken with various FED/Local LEOS who used EOs and a few guys from CGSC/SAMS who were around guys who used the EOTech with good results. Most were scrupulous about fresh batteries, "spring/washer upgrades" and trying to keep the gun/optic in a temp controlled environment as possible. THis was particularly true in the AA models which have the batteries vertically oriented with the barrel of the gun.

[HCM]

Isn't this essentially what the SIG Romeo 4M and 4T are?

There's a newer version of the 4M that's apparently only available on the LE market. It looks like a T but doesn't have a solar panel. It also comes with the heavier T mount instead of the lighter slightly angled mount with Torx screw.

SIG seems shy about admitting that the Romeo is made by Holosun. Although the actual company may not be Holosun there is little doubt the optics originate in China. Possibly as a complete unit or possibly assembled in the US. Not sure what "assembly" consists of. It could mean the mount is put on and the optic is packaged for shipment on this end...


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It’s what they purport to be. Both SIG and Holosun have different grades of optic. They are definitely better than the $99 models but neither of their higher grade optics are up to AP standards.

The PA, SIG and Holosun optics all appear to be made in the same factory. The assumption is that it’s Holosun’s factory but they may all just sub contract with the same factory.

Holosun has a higher grade / more durable optic called the “military model” (515 series) which apparently has gotten some foreign military sales in the Baltic. The 4M passed testing and was adopted by a large U.S. fed agency. There were some initial issues with the mounts /bad mount screws. Apparently some of the 4M optics have been dying at random, enough that they won’t be buying anymore 4Ms.

The parts for the Romeo 4M’s were made in the same factory but were brought into the U.S. as parts kits and assembled by a sub contractor in CA to make them Barry act compliant. That’s why the ones in gov contract packaging are marked “designed in Oregon, assembled in USA” while the ones in commercial packaging are marked “made in China.”

[Nephrology]

Aimpoint PRO for cheap. I have a pair of them and they're rock solid. I got both of mine used on arfcom for about $300 each

It’s what they purport to be. Both SIG and Holosun have different grades of optic. They are definitely better than the $99 models but neither of their higher grade optics are up to AP standards.

The PA, SIG and Holosun optics all appear to be made in the same factory. The assumption is that it’s Holosun’s factory but they may all just sub contract with the same factory.

Holosun has a higher grade / more durable optic called the “military model” (515 series) which apparently has gotten some foreign military sales in the Baltic. The 4M passed testing and was adopted by a large U.S. fed agency. There were some initial issues with the mounts /bad mount screws. Apparently some of the 4M optics have been dying at random, enough that they won’t be buying anymore 4Ms.

The parts for the Romeo 4M’s were made in the same factory but were brought into the U.S. as parts kits and assembled by a sub contractor in CA to make them Barry act compliant. That’s why the ones in gov contract packaging are marked “designed in Oregon, assembled in USA” while the ones in commercial packaging are marked “made in China.”

I snagged a PA microdot with an ADM QD mount for $150 shipped on Arfcom. At that price I couldn't say no. However, it was tough to stomach buying a new PA dot knowing that I'd have to eventually replace the mount, which seems to be the most common point of failure on these optics. Buying new, the ADM mount + the dot get close to $225-250, and at that point an ARFCOM EE Aimpoint PRO is just an obviously better choice.

[Tokarev]

It’s what they purport to be. Both SIG and Holosun have different grades of optic. They are definitely better than the $99 models but neither of their higher grade optics are up to AP standards.

The PA, SIG and Holosun optics all appear to be made in the same factory. The assumption is that it’s Holosun’s factory but they may all just sub contract with the same factory.

Holosun has a higher grade / more durable optic called the “military model” (515 series) which apparently has gotten some foreign military sales in the Baltic. The 4M passed testing and was adopted by a large U.S. fed agency. There were some initial issues with the mounts /bad mount screws. Apparently some of the 4M optics have been dying at random, enough that they won’t be buying anymore 4Ms.

The parts for the Romeo 4M’s were made in the same factory but were brought into the U.S. as parts kits and assembled by a sub contractor in CA to make them Barry act compliant. That’s why the ones in gov contract packaging are marked “designed in Oregon, assembled in USA” while the ones in commercial packaging are marked “made in China.”

Definitely a confusing series of red dots from SIG. They seem to introduce/discontinue red dots at random. The 4M line has been discontinued and/or dropped from our optics contract in favor of the more expensive 4T. With that said, I was at a vendor event earlier this month and saw the new FBI spec 4MB. Black anodized housing, heavy duty mount. Overall a pretty decent looking little unit. I didn't get pricing info but assume it is $400.

We have a couple hundred 4M optics and a handful of T optics in use in my sector of AZ. Few have had any issues. Some issues such as battery cap damage are user error. SIG suggests tightening the cap with fingers and only using the coin slot to remove the cap. One recent complaint is that the M will reflect light inside the optic when used as just the right angle with the sun. This reflection will cause a "ghost dot" to appear and can be confusing for the shooter. Not an exclusive problem to SIG by the way...

The T is definitely a nicer unit. Better mount. Better finish. Time will tell if they work any better than anything else. As I think I mentioned, we have had one T fail. The central dot would not activate but the circle piece still worked.

The "problem" I have with the T as a person who's responsible for spending some of our optics budget is price. For basically the same money I can get the Aimpoint PRO. Some people don't like the PRO because of its size and lack of anything other than a dot. Still, from a general use standpoint it is probably the current standard for LE red dots. Or at least it should be.

With that said I think we're all in agreement that Aimpoint needs a Romeo4T killer. A PRO version of the T2 would instantly become the go to must have for many people as long as it was priced in the mid 400 low 500 range.

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