Travis Haley - .7 second draw to headshot at 10 yds

[nwhpfan]

I'd love to hear from some of our LEOs who are USPSA Masters or GMs...

"Shooting" is a "tactic."

Everything that's ever been said about the benefits of "competitive shooting" is true.

Travis Haley is a good shooter and most people could learn a lot from him.

[voodoo_man]

So, you are unable to cite your own source (as in the one you referenced) that you drew your conclusion from?...


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Reading the whole post may help you in the future.

Unless your objective was to troll, in which case by all means continue so those of us who want to learn can block you and be on our way.

[Sigfan26]

Reading the whole post may help you in the future.

Unless your objective was to troll, in which case by all means continue so those of us who want to learn can block you and be on our way.

You can claim trolling if you want to in an effort to avoid answering the question. I like to use terms like "academic integrity " or "supporting ones claims with cited evidence"... But, if you'd like to avoid providing evidence, just call it trolling and move on to the next "troll" critical of your unsupported facts.


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[Mr_White]

Most of our discussion took place here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread....lse-dichotomy&

Most of what I have to say about it is already there. We got as far as pretty clearly illustrating that there are potential bad reps/habits/scars that can result from any type of training or related activity, and that multiple training modes and activities need to be utilized to shore up the holes and weaknesses that each of them has - specifically including tactical training. That's when I asked voodoo_man: Why are training scars potentially formed by competitive shooting an insurmountable problem, but those potentially formed by defensive training and dry fire are not?

[Clobbersaurus]

The only thing I can add to this thread is that I dry fired and shot a lot before I started competing in IPSC. I also took a lot of pistol classes before I started competing.

I have been competing for just over a year. I still dry fire and shoot a lot and I still take classes. But I am a much better shooter than I was a year ago. The only thing that changed for me was competition. It was like the rose coloured glasses were lifted on my perceptions of my shooting ability.

As the cliche goes: you don't know what you don't know - until you compete.

That's all I have to add. Well, that and I can't wait for PFestivus.

[Sigfan26]

Reading the whole post may help you in the future.

Unless your objective was to troll, in which case by all means continue so those of us who want to learn can block you and be on our way.

Also, I did... Then I posted. Supporting facts may help you in the future.


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[Dagga Boy]

Seems like the boxes we are trying to check with the draw are:

Don't shoot ourself or someone else we don't intend to shoot.

Shoot the target, accurately, as quickly as possible.

Make it repeatable, as in "on demand," whether under match or food court stress.

Draw with a grip that allows you to shoot more than one shot with good recoil control.

Get on the trigger as late as possible to maximize Nyeti evaluation time.

Draw in such a way it maximizes reliability of the pistol.

Make it reasonably easy to learn.


Figure out whatever method checks as many of those boxes as possible for you.

Being you drug me into this cluster.....as part of the forum I generally ignore. First....dang that was fast...I likely cannot do it that fast, so, impressive work by Haley. I am always impressed with folks who shoot really well and really fast. Just like lots of things in life watching people do well.

What is funny about GJM bringing me up in this context is because Wayne and I actually shoot a drill exactly like Haley was shooting on the exact same target, but a bit different because we are looking for a different training goal. Starting from a low ready (so we can take the whole gamer holster, concealment versus non, whatever out of the equation) we do that exact same drill with one caveat....the trigger finger cannot come out of register until the sights are aligned on the hostage taker so we are not running both a muzzle and a finger on the trigger over a non-shoot (I mean do we really want to violate BOTH rule 2&3). I went 15 for 15 last Tuesday at an average of .82-.84 with no hits on the hostage or misses. So, minus the draw, that is what we came up with to check all the boxes.
Other folks do different things. It is neat to watch. After years of teaching with Wayne I picked up on something he said on the draw that was "the answer" for me on draw speed and I am now have a replicable guideline for what I am doing.

So...that was the answer on GJM's serious post. You guys should continue to argue about the age old question of WTF is VDM saying.

Also......I am shocked, and I mean totally shocked, that nobody mentioned Haley wearing Woodland camo pants. Talk about serious internet topic and it obviously flew over everyone here's head.....sheeeesh.

[orionz06]

On phone so excuse the quick reply. I'll gladly offer answers to questions so long as the typical and usual trolls stay away from the thread, which won't happen. So again, there's that.

I offer no excuses for other people's issues or deficiencies. Those cannot shoot cannot shoot because they don't take the time to do train to do so. Those who don't know or understand tactics suffer from a very similar issue. To say that gaming is better than not is very nearsighted because good shooters can be produced without burning bad reps. This is a fact. However, you cannot produce a proficient tactical practitioner with gaming.

What produces better shooters, gaming or tactical classes?

That's a long list which I don't have time to go through and post, and since I have not trained with everyone in the industry it'll be shorter than expected. My previous post is sufficient in this context.



I've stated before that "tactical guys" that did "tactical stuff" for years and then start gaming is not some catchall win condition for this conversation. The guys who have been doing law enforcement and have practical/tactical experience have a very huge step up on the average gamer who does not. Most I have spoken with on this subject enjoy shooting and competing is a way for them to get better at shooting, they have a very finite foundation which they default to that is not gaming based.

So they are indeed getting better by competing, right?

[Talionis]

Also......I am shocked, and I mean totally shocked, that nobody mentioned Haley wearing Woodland camo pants. Talk about serious internet topic and it obviously flew over everyone here's head.....sheeeesh.

You must have missed the memo. Allow me to enlighten you. Woodland camo is the new hotness. Kind of like how the 80's is the current fashion obsession.

[frozentundra]

Other folks do different things. It is neat to watch. After years of teaching with Wayne I picked up on something he said on the draw that was "the answer" for me on draw speed and I am now have a replicable guideline for what I am doing.

For goodness sake man, what did he tell you?