Let's talk PDW's

[TGS]

Well what is the difference outside of the name? What I am seeing is this thread at least are AR Pistols with a short barrel. Is that not a PDW? So regardless if you put a pistol lower or a rifle lower its still a PDW designed to take up the least amount of space and be transportable. A hinged rifle lower would accomplish the same thing as a pistol braced lower wouldnt it?
I think I get the pistol lower because it not stamp required.

Just because someone rides around with an AR in their car doesn't make it a PDW.

I don't think there's any hard definition, and as with everything definitions/classifications change over time, but I'd argue that a PDW is quite a bit more compact than a CQBR sized AR15. Probably a really good example to demonstrate the difference is that nobody markets a CQBR as a PDW. A PDW-variant of a given weapon's family will always be substantially smaller (LWRC, DD AR15s, HK416 or FN SCAR as examples). Even in SMGs, a PDW will always be a smaller variant (MP5K-PDW vs other collapsible stock MP5 variants).

I'd argue a PDW can have a barrel no longer than 7.5", but preferably shorter, and absolutely requires a collapsible or folding stock. A non-folding or non-collapsible stock is a complete non-starter for a PDW...a regular 4-6 position adjustable stock is laughable as a PDW.

[hiro]

I've long had a hankering for one of these. No longer listed on the Knights website, I remember reading somewhere that they would build them if someone came along with a big enough order but I can't recall or verify the source.

P-F.com group buy or should I buy a lottery ticket?

On a more serious note, those of you carrying these in a vehicle, are you willing to share how you store and your plan, should you need to deploy?

[Duces Tecum]

I'm only sharing this because ALL 5.56/.223 cartridges failed the same test from a 7" barrel, which seems relevant to the discussion here.

@StraitR, this is an important bit of data. Would be interesting to see a similar experiment run with .300 BLK with 5"-9" barrels.

[HeavyDuty]

Personally I'd go 12.5" if I was choosing an unsuppressed duty rifle, because it's pure sex...

This BCM Kino upper is going on a papered higher quality lower after I land in NH... I agree 12.5” is a definite sweet spot.

(Sorry for continuing the thread derail)

Attachment 50869

[hiro]

I'd argue a PDW can have a barrel no longer than 7.5", but preferably shorter, and absolutely requires a collapsible or folding stock. A non-folding or non-collapsible stock is a complete non-starter for a PDW...a regular 4-6 position adjustable stock is laughable as a PDW.

Thoughts on calibre? The Knights 6x35mm looks great on paper to me but it and the guns shooting it are rocking horse shit which I guess means 300 Black Out as being the only non-pistol round designed for shorter barrels that you can actually buy. What else fits the bill?

When I first heard the term PDW it was linked with the FN P90 and HK MP7 - both designed I think, as second line infantry weapons that can defeat Russian body armour and be easy to carry. The rounds for both have been dismissed for the use most here would have.

The idea seems to then be associated with protection details, maybe more so in Hollywood, I don't know.

[hiro]

This BCM Kino upper is going on a papered higher quality lower after I land in NH... I agree 12.5” is a definite sweet spot.

Attachment 50869

That looks like the exact same upper that's next on my buy list - I really like the Kino set up for reasons I really can't explain. Probably similar to the reasons most who've posted in this thread!

[PNWTO]

What’s the hive mind perspective on the PSA AR9 series? Not the most fantastic option but I like the price, AR controls, and have an abundance of both 9mm and Glock mags.

[TGS]

Thoughts on calibre? The Knights 6x35mm looks great on paper to me but it and the guns shooting it are rocking horse shit which I guess means 300 Black Out as being the only non-pistol round designed for shorter barrels that you can actually buy. What else fits the bill?

When I first heard the term PDW it was linked with the FN P90 and HK MP7 - both designed I think, as second line infantry weapons that can defeat Russian body armour and be easy to carry. The rounds for both have been dismissed for the use most here would have.

The idea seems to then be associated with protection details, maybe more so in Hollywood, I don't know.

I think caliber is only relevant as it pertains to fulfilling what you're looking to do. If armored targets aren't high on the threat spectrum and you're looking to carry something in a very small bag, a 9mm seems reasonable. If you're looking to penetrate armor or have the possibility of going beyond 100 yards, a 300 blackout makes sense. The 5.7 FN and 4.6 HK make perfect sense for the 1986 RFP for which they were developed. At that point, short 5.56 rifles weren't a great option for general issue, and 9mm SMGs had extremely limited armor penetration capabilities. The P90 allowed support troops to carry an SMG sized weapon that could penetrate armor three times the distance that even the most aggressive 9mm AP ammo could.

If armored targets aren't on your list of things to worry about, the 4.6 and 5.7 obviously make terrible choices.

PDWs definitely have a place in protection. We currently use DD Mk18s, which have to be carried in a strangely oblong bag that is great for the general public but isn't convincing anyone who is looking for who's carrying a long gun. We have limited LAW folders in use, which allows you to use a regular sized backpack...but pretty much takes up the capacity of that backpack leaving little room for anything else. A true PDW sized gun would allow you to use an even smaller bag, or use a standard sized backpack with the capacity to still carry other stuff. We still have a limited number of MP5K-PDWs in use for such uses, though we tested the Troy SOCC 7.5 and SIG Rattler with the T&E being a landslide in favor of the Rattler. Our weapons depot was trying to push them on my last assignment as a replacement for our Block 1 Mk18s, but I'm unsure if that's moving forward or with the other more specialized unit in the organization who still has the MP5K-PDWs.

YMMV, all that. These are just my thoughts on the topic.

[psalms144.1]

Back before electricity when I was doing protection, our long gun options were MP5KN or Mk18. The MP5, while possibly my favorite shoulder fired weapon of all time, doesn't do very much except allow for exceptional accuracy with pistol rounds, and the ability to make a very happy shooter when you mag dump. The Mk18 couldn't be carried ready to fire in anything short of a mountaineering rucksack - on our trips to Pakistan where we were not officially armed, it was pretty obvious to everyone in the grid zone that we were - not just because of the HUGE rucks we were all carrying in urban settings, but the fact that rifle plates over soft armor under an untucked "casual" shirt doesn't conceal all that well. That and the ear pieces - and the cool guy shades Oakley shades, of course. The alternative to the Yuge ruck was carrying the rifle in two parts in a backpack - not best choice for quick deployment.

When we got the Mk16 (SCAR-L), I thought I was in heaven. They could be carried (and fired) in the stock folded position, so they'd fit into a 3-day pack - MUCH lower profile. And ours were accurate, reliable, and durable - but we didn't set out to break them like some end users did to "prove a point."

To me, I think of the PDW as the modern equivalent of the M1 Carbine - a smaller, lighter, still capable shoulder fired weapon that REMFs who can't handle an M4 can carry without whining. I think the current crop of 7-9" 300 BOs pistols/SBRs meet this requirement nicely - with the down side of a logistics tail for a unique caliber. Going to an AR9 platform simplifies logistics, but you're back to having an accurate but large pistol - basically a 100 yard gun against unarmored targets only. Honestly, for today's environment in the US, I think that will handle 99% of what non-LE/.mil folks need when you say "PDW."

I'd love to pick up a Scorpion, if only they could be adopted to Glock magazines (of which I have an actual metric ass ton). I keep putting PSA AR9s in my shopping cart then NOT buying them because of the lack of a last round bolt hold open - it's not a show-stopper from a manual of arms perspective (I deal with it all the time with my MP5), but it's different enough from the AR that it takes something away from the "muscle memory" piece of an AR-platform 9mm.

So, what I need is an AR9 with LRBHO that feeds from Glock mags, and costs what a PSA gun does. I'll take mine in a 6-8" barrel, lightweight MLOC forend with top picatinny rail. Someone whip that up for me and I'll be the first in line to buy.

[UNK]

I think the sub-11.5" 556 thing is overblown. People on the internet hear something and take it and run. We use Daniel Defense Mk18s at work without issue. I've never witnessed a malfunction that wasn't immediately identified as a magazine failure. ETA: Correction, I saw one go down on the line for a gas key issue, which isn't isolated to Mk18s.

Regardless of everything I've read on the internet, our Daniel Defense Mk18s just plain work. "11.5" has 40% more dwell time". Okay. But ours still work just fine, and our duty ammo is still reliable performance out to 110 yards.

Personally I'd go 12.5" if I was choosing an unsuppressed duty rifle, because it's pure sex....but I think the statement that "going shorter than 11.5" in 5.56 isn't smart" is a bit exaggerated.

With that said, this is a PDW thread, and CQBRs are not PDWs....so maybe we should save this conversation for elsewhere.

On DD website it list that barrel as 10.3. At that length are you limited in ammo choices?