Travis Haley says "don't buy the MagPul DVDs"

[jetfire]

From the BookFace:

I've had a lot of people ask me about this: Be careful buying training DVDs that 7 yrs old. If you know how adaptive we are in our training programs then you get my point... If you don't then here: DO NOT BUY THESE. "yes this message is approved by Travis Haley."

This was posted regarding MagPul offering the entire "Art of the Firearm Collection" as an omnibus set for a hundred bucks. Down the FB thread Haley follows his initial post up with this:

Mostly because I created, produced and directed these. So I know the material very well. There is a lot that I would take back and add which we do now in our programs. The Panteao videos are a massive improvement as it pertains to material and even those are becoming older and need to be updated. So no it wont get you killed, but there is better material since then. http://haleystrategic.com/store/dvd.php

The cynic in me says that he's recommending the new stuff over the old stuff because he's not getting royalties off the MagPul DVDs. That being said, I've not seen the Panteo DVDs (because I won't buy anything that puts money in Fernando's pocket) but I have seen the Magpul DVDs. While I found some of the stuff in the Magpul DVDs kind of hokey, if a person actually internalizes the information and then practices it regularly, they'll have a better skill base than someone who just shows up at the range with no practice whatsoever. No, they won't be a GM, and yes their stance will be all kinds of messed up, but I sort of view them like I'd view taking the entire Gunsite battery of courses: it's better than not training.

[orionz06]

The cynic in you sounds more right than wrong here.

[jetfire]

The cynic in you sounds more right than wrong here.

He usually is.

[PPGMD]

Personally I never liked Panteo's format of some dude or dudette talking to the camera the entire time. For shooting training I think a class based video results in a better production as often, like in a real class, seeing a student doing something wrong provides more content than if they followed a script on it's own. As a trainers should be positive avoiding telling people what not to do, but since these are videos they need to cover fixing common mistakes.

[TCinVA]

The only training DVD I've ever found to be useful was Craig's PUC/MUC DVD. Admittedly I don't often purchase training DVDs.

I think they can be more useful on some topics than others.

Ditto the not doing business with panteo because the owner is a crook. I've often wondered if the folks appearing in those videos have been getting a fair deal from somebody who has notoriously shafted a bunch of people on previous business ventures.

Mr. Haley's claims of significant changes since putting out the Magpul DVDs (which I think a lot of people put down out of jealousy as much as anything else...look how many people who talked smack about those who have DVDs of their own now) might be perfectly honest. I've joked before after training with someone a few times over several years that I'd love to get the current version of him in a room with the guy from 4 years ago and the guy from 7 years ago and let them fight it all out.

The whole "don't buy" them thing...that strikes me as absurd. It's one thing to have changed your mind on some stuff and to have evolved, but if you were ever in the position Mr. Haley was in you shouldn't have been putting out downright bad information, right?

[TR675]

Those DVDs are polished, informative and well done. Watching them put me well ahead of the curve when it came time to get formally educated. I had the basics down and wasn't all asses and elbows.

There might be some out of date information and better choices available today but for a beginner they are hardly useless.

[Chance]

The cynic in me says that he's recommending the new stuff over the old stuff because he's not getting royalties off the Magpul DVDs.

Haley's been plenty successful creating his own brand, and I don't get the impression he's hurting for money. That being said, I don't know what kind of numbers the Magpul and Panteao videos are pulling down....

The Panteao videos that he's done have some good info in them, but don't have as much material as the Magpul videos. So far as I can tell, the material in the carbine videos has changed quite a bit (I'll never forget the amount of stuff he and Costa had on their ARs - they looked like Star Trek phaser rifles), but the material in the pistol videos is very similar.

Ditto the not doing business with panteo because the owner is a crook. I've often wondered if the folks appearing in those videos have been getting a fair deal from somebody who has notoriously shafted a bunch of people on previous business ventures.

Not at all familiar with Fernando, but if he's presently playing the shyster, he has a pretty impressive line-up of suckers: Paul Howe, Pat Rogers, Massad Ayoob, and others, have come back to make videos with him repeatedly.

[orionz06]

Haley's been plenty successful creating his own brand, and I don't get the impression he's hurting for money. That being said, I don't know what kind of numbers the Magpul and Panteao videos are pulling down....

The royalties now are likely peanuts. At the height of the Magpul craze... Who knows how much money he didn't make, could have made, or someone made instead of him.

[ToddG]

Not at all familiar with Fernando, but if he's presently playing the shyster, he has a pretty impressive line-up of suckers...

I have no idea what he's doing presently. I know he has a felony conviction for trying to screw some former employees -- including some close friends of mine -- out of quite a bit of money. I know more than one instructor who specifically opted not to do business with his video company because of this and other past unethical behavior. From the MidHudson News:



As to why so many work with him, I doubt it's any single reason. I know at least one of the people you named was unaware of Coelho's past when he first signed up. I'm sure some didn't know and some didn't care.

To borrow a phrase from a friend, personally I wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire and my kidney was about to burst. YMMV.

[JLM]

Thanks for the intel Todd. I have a Vague recollection about some stuff around Woolrich Elite and not getting product out or getting bad product out.

Out of that list I can think of one that "wouldn't care"