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Thread: Fire Extinguishers - Preparing for a Valid Threat

  1. #21
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Trailers are tinderboxes for sure. Glad the only loss is property.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  2. #22
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    One other thing I thought of, although not sure how applicable it is to fires in the general public. Besides the standard ABC grade extinguishers, there are also personally refillable water extinguishers. I own one of the big stainless ones (probably 40+ lbs full) that's sold to farmers for storage on equipment like combines and balers where dust firest from overheated bearings are more common than 'complex' grease or electrical fires.

    When you use this type of extinguisher up, you're not out of firefighting capability if you have an air pump and a water source nearby. Mine will shoot nearly 30' in a very directed high-pressure stream for quite awhile before it starts running out of oomph. I use it if I'm welding in a grassy or dusty area, but I've also used it as a training tool for my helpers because it doesn't cost me anything to refill. They're more expensive and more limited than dry chemical extinguishers but in some circumstances are warranted.

    You basically unscrew the head portion, hold the cylinder under a hose and fill to an internal fill line, reattach the head, and pressurize through a standard schraeder valve (like tires have) using the extinguisher's gauge to know when it's full. It could be refilled using a bike pump although I usually just 'bump' it with compressed air until it's full.

  3. #23
    Member Crazy Dane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theJanitor View Post
    Sad to see you lost your trailer, but glad to hear you're ok. Do you keep a spare CPAP machine?

    As for the propane, I had a conversation with the County Fireman that does hazard assessments for companies in our industrial area, and he said as long as the vent's are facing up, it's ok. As the pressure builds in the tank, the pressure vent expels gas, which typically ignites but is harmless except for what's right above it. It'll continue to look like a flamethrower until the gas is expended. If the tanks are properly secured, staying away from them might be a good idea.

    Maybe another FF can validate what I was told?

    This is mostly true and I will try not to get to long winded. Propane has a liquid part to it hence the full name of Liquid Petroleum Gas or LPG. LPG has a boiling temp of -44F. It also has a low vapor pressure and is why it can be contained in relatively thin tanks. This max pressure in the tanks is temperature dependent. Liquid boils, pressure increases, liquid quits boiling.

    BLEVE - Boling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion aka Blast Leveling Everything Very Efficiently.

    When the tank heats up the liquid will boil and pressures increase. The vent aka pop off valve, in most circumstances will do its intend function. When you start having direct flame impingement, the liquid can boil off faster than the POV can release resulting in BLEVE.

    I was a LPG emergency/fire instructor until the state made it to difficult to maintain certification.



    Dan you wife is smarter than you and kept you out of harms way, I'm glad you listened. Possessions can be replaced.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Tensaw View Post
    Wow. Glad things worked okay for ya’ll. I take it the hitch on the trailer was not secured with a lock so it was just a matter of pulling a pin to unhitch? I’ve read some discussions about the relative merits of locks versus pins on some RV forums and this exact scenario (trailer fire) is the argument for ease of de-coupling.
    Sorry for the loss of the trailer and contents, good that nobody was injured and very good to read about multiple people stopping to help.

    Tensaw's point about the lock is a good one, my trailer hitch is secured with a lock through the ball clamp when the trailer is parked detached from the vehicle, but when on the vehicle the ball clamp is secured with a pin that can easily be removed for emergency unhitching.

  5. #25
    Hammertime
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    Thank you for the reminders and hard won education. Glad you and yours are safe.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Crazy Dane View Post
    This is mostly true and I will try not to get to long winded. Propane has a liquid part to it hence the full name of Liquid Petroleum Gas or LPG. LPG has a boiling temp of -44F. It also has a low vapor pressure and is why it can be contained in relatively thin tanks. This max pressure in the tanks is temperature dependent. Liquid boils, pressure increases, liquid quits boiling.

    BLEVE - Boling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion aka Blast Leveling Everything Very Efficiently.

    When the tank heats up the liquid will boil and pressures increase. The vent aka pop off valve, in most circumstances will do its intend function. When you start having direct flame impingement, the liquid can boil off faster than the POV can release resulting in BLEVE.

    I was a LPG emergency/fire instructor until the state made it to difficult to maintain certification.



    Dan you wife is smarter than you and kept you out of harms way, I'm glad you listened. Possessions can be replaced.

    A short follow up: the time to tank failure and BLEVE is also related to how full the tank is, and how fast the flame exposure happens. Full tanks have more liquid to absorb heat, so the metal shell doesn't reach the failure point as fast. Tank metal with no liquid behind it will fail faster. Flame exposure above the liquid line of a tank is more problematic than the same flame exposure below the liquid level. Even an "empty" tank has enough residual to ruin your day after the shell fails. And an intense fire with lots of rapid heating will fail a tank faster than a slow buildup if the rate of heat increase exceeds the ability of the vent to let it out.

    I experienced a number of 1 pound bottle failures and they're quite the surprise when you don't know they're in the bed of the burning truck. I only remember one 20 pound tank failure. It was in the furnace closet of an apartment that was heavily engulfed. I mean, a guy's gotta use all the storage space he can when living the apartment life, right? That one went off about the time we were at the front door. It caused serious structural damage.

    Regarding the ineffectiveness of the extinguishers: they work by breaking the chemical reaction that constitutes fire (for the most part). They don't cool anything or remove fuel. You have to get all the flame out at the same time, so to speak. If the tiniest flame remains, maybe hidden behind an obstruction, the fire will come back as soon as the extinguisher is no longer in use. Sometimes two extinguishers from different directions simultaneously will do what a single unit can't. And the previously mentioned water extinguisher has the advantage of cooling the fuel, plus getting steam into hidden areas that dry chems don't do very well. You just have to watch out for using them on fuel types that don't play well with water like gasoline, grease, etc.

    We had a thread here about various extinguisher types and uses a few years back that had some good intel if anybody finds it.

  7. #27
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    Dan, thanks for posting this and I'm glad you're both OK.

    Key pieces of knowledge I got from the OP:

    Keep your extinguisher where you can reach it without going into the burning space. I see extinguisher stickers on semis and work/utility trucks, all on outside compartments.

    When seconds count, the fire department is at LEAST minutes away. Even in my urban area, looking at some recent runs, 8-10 minutes is pretty good for our section of the freeway.

    Being able to ditch the trailer quickly is a good thing.


    My thoughts:

    When we think we have a fire of any size knocked down, the next thing we do is to start tearing stuff up. We'll start tearing off burned/damaged stuff to make sure the fire isn't spreading behind it. This is probably not something anyone but a firefighter is going to be thinking about at that moment, but it's really important.

    On the theme of breaking stuff, trailers are pretty flimsy, construction-wise, and you can probably breach them with what you're carrying in the cab. Might be an option to recover property without going in.

    This is not a shot at Dan. You stayed calm, made good decisions, and accepted and acted on advice. That's about as good as anyone could hope for.


    I'll defer to brother Dane on this, he's got better insight on this than me, but I'm pretty iffy about trusting the popoff valves on any tank stored out in the weather. That said, I've been doing this 30 years and I've never had a 20 lb tank BLEVE on me. Had some 1 pounders and spray cans do it. And it's not like people in my district aren't storing tanks in the closets...



    I posted in the extinguisher thread so I was able to find it.
    'Nobody ever called the fire department because they did something intelligent'

  8. #28
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    Fire Extinguisher Basics

    This material is dated, but the basic info is good. Recommend that you contact your local fire department for current fire extinguisher training

    Virginia RACES - Fire Safety Awareness Module - Rev. 28May03

    Fire is the most common workplace and home hazard. Fire safety awareness enables us to be alert, well-informed citizens, who recognize danger, can notify the fire department, assist in building evacuation and know when it is safe to fight an "early-stage" fire. This unit was developed in cooperation with the National Fire Protection Association. The PowerPoint program http://www.ilpi.com/safety/downloads/fire_safety.pdf used to present this module includes copyrighted material used by Virginia RACES http://www.ilpi.com/safety/extinguishers.html with permission from Dr. Robert Toreki of Interactive Learning Paradigms, Inc., of Lexington, KY, who may be reached by email info@ilpi.com

    Fire Safety Awareness Exam:

    1. Fire is caused by:
    a. Combining oxygen, fuel and heat, until they reach ignition temperature.
    b. Carelessness with ignition sources and failure to handle combustibles properly.
    c. Failure to follow proper safety procedures or to correct dangerous conditions.
    d. All of the above.

    2. The recommended procedure for home exit drills is to:
    a. Discuss the family emergency plan, have two means of escape and a nearby meeting place to account for everyone and ensure that they are OK.
    b . Test home smoke and CO detectors weekly, ensure exit doors or windows are not blocked, remove trash daily and maintain safe clearances from
    combustibles.
    c. Crawl low to avoid smoke, exit the door, and meet outside.
    d. All of the above.

    4. The minimum clearance for combustibles from heat sources is:
    a. One foot
    b. Two feet
    c. Three feet
    d. Five feet

    5. Smoke and CO detector batteries in the home should be changed:
    a. Annually, or when you reset your clocks.
    b. Immediately, if the detector unit should fail during any "test" activation.
    c. Every two years.
    d. Both A and B.

    6. The basic elements of fire protection are:
    a. Knowledge of how fires are caused.
    b. Exercise of good housekeeping, reporting and correcting unsafe conditions.
    c. Learning and practicing recommended emergency procedures.
    d. All of the above.

    7. If vehicle cargo is on fire you should:
    a. Stop off the roadway, open the cargo doors and try to extinguish the fire.
    b. Stop at the nearest service station and call the fire department.
    c. Call the fire department and follow their instructions. Do not open cargo doors.
    d. A and B.

    8. If there is a fire in the vehicle engine compartment, you should:
    a. Call the fire department and follow their instructions. Do not open the hood.
    b. Stop off the roadway, open the hood and try to extinguish the fire.
    c. Stop at the nearest service station to call the fire department.
    d. B and C.

    9. If a vehicle catches fire during operation, you should:
    a. Open the hood or cargo doors and try to extinguish the fire.
    b. Stop in an open field or parking lot and turn off the engine.
    c. Call the fire department and follow their instructions.
    d. B and C.

    10. If equipment catches fire during operation, you should:
    a. Turn off the equipment.
    b. Remove combustibles, if you can do so without endangering yourself.
    c . Call the fire department, and get help to put out the fire, if you have the proper extinguisher available and have been trained how to use it.
    d. All of the above.

    11. If a co-worker's clothing catches fire you should:
    a. Stop what you are doing, yell for help, and have someone call 911.
    b. Tackle co-worker to the floor and roll them to extinguish the fire.
    c. Use a blanket, heavy coat or carpet to smother the fire if available.
    d. All of the above.

    12. Before opening a door you should:
    a. Feel for heat, palms out, close to, but not touching the door.
    b. Look for smoke coming in from around the door.
    c. If either smoke or heat are present, don't open the door, use an alternative exit.
    d. All of the above.

    13. Recommended building evacuation procedure is to:
    a. Assist persons in immediate danger if you can do so without risk to yourself.
    b. Call 911, activate the building alarm and ensure that everyone is evacuating.
    c. Never go back into a burning building for any reason, but get out and call 911.
    d. All of the above.

    14. You should use a fire extinguisher to fight a fire only if:
    a. The alarm has been activated, the building is being evacuated, the fire department has been called, the fire is small and contained and there is no
    imminent peril.
    b. You have help to fight the fire with your back to an exit, you can stay low to avoid smoke, the proper extinguisher is at hand, and you know how to
    use it.
    c. You are the only one available to fight the fire.
    d. A and B.

    15. Do not fight a fire if:
    a. You don't know what is burning.
    b. Others in the building haven't been warned about the fire and are not evacuating.
    c. You don't have a clear exit to leave immediately if anything unexpected happens.
    d. All of the above.

    16. Class A extinguishers are suitable for:
    a. Fire in energized circuits or electrical equipment, computers.
    b. Flammable liquid fires, such as oil, gasoline, solvents.
    c. Ordinary combustibles, paper, wood, most rubber or plastics and textiles.
    d. Flammable metal fires, machining chips, and reactive metals such as titanium.

    17. Class B extinguishers are suitable for:
    a. Fire in energized circuits or electrical equipment, computers.
    b. Flammable liquid fires, such as oil, gasoline, solvents.
    c. Ordinary combustibles, paper, wood, most rubber, plastics, textiles.
    d. Flammable metal fires, machining chips, reactive metals such as titanium.

    18. Class C extinguishers are suitable for:
    a. Fire in energized circuits or electrical equipment, computers.
    b. Flammable liquid fires, such as oil, gasoline, solvents.
    c. Ordinary combustibles, paper, wood, most rubber, plastics, textiles.
    d. Flammable metal fires, machining chips, reactive metals such as titanium.

    19. Water when used as an extinguishing agent:
    a. May intensify the fire if used on burning liquids.
    b. Poses risk of electric shock if used on energized equipment.
    c. Is commonly propelled by a soda-acid chemical reaction.
    d. A and B.

    20. Dry chemical when used as an extinguishing agent:
    a. Is multi-purpose rated B-C or ABC, depending upon the specific agent used.
    b. Is nonconductive, works by blanketing the fuel to interrupt the chemical reaction at the fuel surface, and displacing oxygen to smother the fire.
    c. Should be tested only upon your approach to the fire.
    d. All of the above.

    21. C02 when used as an extinguishing agent:
    a. Is dangerously reactive on Class D metal fires.
    b. Is less effective on Class A fires due to re-ignition.
    c. Has an effective range of less than 8 ft., discharges in 10 seconds or less and disperses quickly, so you should apply in short spurts until all of the
    gas runs out.
    d. All of the above.

    22. Halon when used as an extinguishing agent:
    a. Weight for weight it is twice as effective as C02.
    b. It produces no residue and is the best choice for protecting valuable electronics.
    c. A and B.
    d. It is inexpensive and highly recommended for general home and office use.


    23. The recommended method for using a fire extinguisher is to:
    a. Discharge the extinguisher pointing at the center of the fire where the flames are most dense, in one continuous stream until the fire is out.
    b. Work from the top of the fire down to its base, using short spurts.
    c. Work from the base of the fire up in one long continuous stream.
    d. Stand with your back to an unobstructed exit, 6 to 8 feet from the fire, then pull the pin, aim low at the base of the fire, squeeze the lever and
    sweep from side to side, using 1-3 second spurts, while being cautious of spreading or re-ignition.

    24. What should you do once the fire is out?
    a. Contact the fire department and cancel the call.
    b. Watch fire area, being alert for re-ignition. If you cannot confine the fire, leave.
    c. Ensure fire department inspects the site and recharge or replace the extinguisher.
    d. Both B and C.

    25. What type, class and rating of fire extinguisher is the recommended minimum for general home, personal motor vehicle and recreational boats?
    a. APW, 2-A
    b. Dry chemical, 1-A/10-BC
    c. CO2, 10-BC
    d. Halon, 5-BC

    Five unscored survey questions follow. Please answer these honestly so that the information may assist public safety officials in their community preparedness planning.

    26. Do you have at least one ABC extinguisher and smoke /CO detector in your home, AND, if so, have you have inspected them within the last month? Y / N

    27. Do you have an ABC or BC extinguisher, flares and a first aid kit in the vehicle you drove here today, AND, if so have you checked them in the last month? Y / N

    28. Has your family conducted an Exit-Drill-In-The-Home this year? Y / N

    29. Have you received fire safety training similar to this before in your employment? Y / N

    30. On a 1-4 scale, how do rate THIS training as being relevant and useful to improve your personal safety at home and work?
    1 2 3 4
    Not effective Extremely effective

  9. #29
    Deadeye Dick Clusterfrack's Avatar
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    Jun 2013
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    Wokelandia
    Dan, I bet you're getting sick of revisiting this disaster and answering questions. Here's one more:

    If there's a round or shell in the chamber when it cooks off, that's significantly more dangerous than ammunition loose or in a magazine, right? I'm trying to think about how I would try to mitigate that danger, and unless I knew the direction the firearms were facing, I don't have a good answer. Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Lehr View Post
    Yes.

    25 Brennecke Slugs in a chest carrier plus 7 flight control 1B in the mag tube of an 870. Mag tube intact, shell carrier pushed down and back, melted magpul stock and foreararm.

    30 rounds of 9mm - mag in an M&P plus extra mag. Melted frame of M&P, don't know if floorplates melted of mags or were pushed off by rounds popping, mag bodies pretty much intact.

    I couldn't find my LCP.

    ETA: I think the slugs in the chest plate melted down and burnt whereas the shells in the tube popcorned. I told the fireguys about the ammo and guns. Shortly after they started putting water on, what I assume were the nines started popping, kind of like the 4th.
    "You can never have too many knives." --Joe Ambercrombie
    Shabbat shalom, motherf***ers! --Mordechai Jefferson Carver

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Clusterfrack View Post
    Dan, I bet you're getting sick of revisiting this disaster and answering questions. Here's one more:

    If there's a round or shell in the chamber when it cooks off, that's significantly more dangerous than ammunition loose or in a magazine, right? I'm trying to think about how I would try to mitigate that danger, and unless I knew the direction the firearms were facing, I don't have a good answer. Thoughts?
    This has been studied by SAAMI in conjunction with a fire chiefs association. https://saami.org/publications-advis...e-firefighter/

    In essence it’s not much (relative to app the others dangers present to a firefighter) of a danger outside a chamber but inside it is. A fire like his is one of the instances when it would get hot enough to ignite one in the chamber.

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