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Thread: Irons and Red Generational User Question

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by IDontDoQuests View Post
    By WHAT and WHO's Logic exactly? I don't know what you're referring to. I posed a question. And made sure not to infer anything with the exception that perhaps people on here consider the dot to be superior (a belief that I will neither confirm or deny).
    Easy tiger. I was trying to understand what you were really asking through the block of circular text.

    Are you talking superior in performance or enjoyment?

    Because the two don't necessarily go together.

    I like driving manual transmission cars and would race one in an all manual transmission racing division.

    But a good PDK is better performance wise hands down.

    I think red dots on pistols will be like red dots on rifles in 15 years.

    You'll still have people who compete with lever action rifles in lever action rifle competitions though.
    Last edited by JCN; 09-14-2021 at 04:05 AM.

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by JCN View Post
    Easy tiger. I was trying to understand what you were really asking through the block of circular text.

    By WHAT and WHO's Logic exactly? The logic of the "try hard community, meaning us."



    I do actually believe that a handgun with a red dot AND FUNCTIONAL BUIS is superior to irons in EVERY WAY.

    In another generation when technology keeps improving, irons on pistols will be like irons on rifles currently. You don't see many agencies issuing rifles with irons only, do you?

    But some people like irons on rifles at the range and in competition. Some people like manual transmission cars despite that they are worse in performance.

    The more succinct way of answering your question about high level shooters using irons... for every iron leaning Stoeger, there is a dot leaning Max Michel. Then you have Grauffel and Sailer who compete with both because they enjoy being versatile.

    High level shooters using irons in dedicated iron competition divisions doesn't imply that they think they're higher performing, just that they enjoy them.

    I expect in 30 years irons on pistols will be like irons on rifles. Or manual transmission cars. Or maybe even internal combustion vehicles.
    How do you live with yourself? Have you been diagnosed with some behavioral disorder? To the other users of this board, is this guy serious? LOL.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by IDontDoQuests View Post
    How do you live with yourself? Have you been diagnosed with some behavioral disorder? To the other users of this board, is this guy serious? LOL.
    Bizarro land man, I'm not serious at all. Do you need more medication for your blood pressure?

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by IDontDoQuests View Post
    How do you live with yourself? Have you been diagnosed with some behavioral disorder? To the other users of this board, is this guy serious? LOL.
    Were you trying to justify your love of irons because some high level shooters use them in a dedicated iron divisions?

    RU MAD, BRO because I'm saying love doesn't have to follow logic or performance and you can enjoy something that is worse performing as long as everyone else is similarly handicapped?

    Even though you were thinking you were being objective, you were asking a question to support your bias.

    If pointing that out makes you uncomfortable, I'm not really sorry. That's my behavioral disorder and that's why I'm particularly annoying to a number of people, but very useful to others. That's how I live with (and love) myself.

  5. #15
    Site Supporter Hambo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IDontDoQuests View Post
    How do you live with yourself? Have you been diagnosed with some behavioral disorder? To the other users of this board, is this guy serious? LOL.
    The forum has 'ignore user' and 'ignore thread/forum' features.
    "Gunfighting is a thinking man's game. So we might want to bring thinking back into it."-MDFA

  6. #16
    Site Supporter psalms144.1's Avatar
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    Without getting into the dick measuring this has turned into, I'm still and irons guy because (a) I haven't found a pistol optic yet that meets my standards for reliability and usability, (b) my near vision is still good, so I can see the irons just fine while my far vision is failing, so being able to make easier 25 yard shots on a fuzzy (i.e. NOT positively identified) target isn't a consideration for me. At close to middle ranges, I can clear a plate rack just as fast, if not faster, with my iron sighted G19 as the one with an SRO (which is a purely gamer optic I'd NEVER carry for serious purposes). Shrink the window size down to RMR/Holosun size, and picking up the dot slows me down even more.

    As CF pointed out, batteries fail a lot more often and inconsistently, in my experience, than iron sights get knocked askew. I've had optics from every major manufacturer (except Aimpoint) fail on me unexpectedly, and every one of those has needed factory replacement. The "BUIS" are still there when the dot fails (if you can see through the glass), but they're REALLY hard to find in a hurry.

    There's also a cost factor. A quality optic direct milled into a slide costs damn near as much as a base pistol, for, to me, limited gains.

    Lastly, I'm a curmudgeon. I carry a single stack 1911 more often than anything else, unless I'm lounging around the house in shorts.

  7. #17
    Site Supporter CCT125US's Avatar
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    At this point in time, I vastly prefer irons. Every single red dot I have used, has failed me in some way. Either mechanically, or visually. I don't trust them personally, however, I understand they work well for plenty of others. I'm happy for them.
    Taking a break from social media.

  8. #18
    Modding this sack of shit BehindBlueI's's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IDontDoQuests View Post
    Given that within the try hard community, meaning us, the red dot is considered to be superior in EVERY WAY...
    I think that sentence is the heart of your confusion. I don't think anyone believes that in such a simplistic way as you put it. Even red dot advocates are going to say there is a downside in terms of cost, in terms of complexity of logistics, in terms of size, etc.

    There is broad consensus that a dot increases technical performance in most contexts. Is that improvement meaningful? If you have technical skills that are already deep into diminishing returns for defensive encounters, is that extra little bump worth the downsides? When I worked uniform patrol I saw a non-zero amount of incidents were guys had a duty gun and holster packed with mud. Your BUIS are completely useless if your RDS window is obscured by mud, they aren't offset. It snows here. Irons are very weather proof. Dots may or may not be. Irons are very difficult to obscure and very quick to clear if they do get mud or something on them, dots less so. All considerations.

    I'm not a competitor but as others have pointed out, equipment changes the division you compete in. Someone can like the technology of top fuel cars and nobody doubts they are the fastest accelarating race cars, but still want to run NASCAR or dirt track. They may already be entrenched in their sport, they may just like their sport more, etc.

    So nobody is saying they are superior in EVERY WAY. They are saying they are superior in SOME WAYS, which may or may not be relevant to any given user in any given context.

    Signed, Gen X dude who's dot curious and experimenting but still not quite all in.
    Sorta around sometimes for some of your shitty mod needs.

  9. #19
    Site Supporter Trooper224's Avatar
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    Seems to me, you've decided dots are the ONLY way and you're simply looking for near religious affirmation.
    We may lose and we may win, but we will never be here again.......

  10. #20
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    @BehindBlueI's

    Excellent assessment as always!

    Do you think that in time with improved technology, reliable closed emitter optics on handguns could address enough of those issues to become worthwhile?

    I think that’s where rifles are at for duty currently but rifle and pistol have different uses.

    And while this is like a bad meme, I wonder if someone could integrate offset irons into a pistol slide to overcome mud packing of lenses.

    I think closed units with lenses treated with rainx might mitigate a good bit of the issue, maybe cleared with a quick tap or shake of the pistol similar to if there was a glob of mud on your irons. Open emitter you’re fucked though.

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