Mini rant on current events

[Mr Pink]

Have you found any effective ways to convince others to get more training if they're in Category 1?

Not really, but I still try my best. I invite people to the range, offer to take them to IDPA or USPSA matches, give them info about instructors and other classes, etc...I even have a range bag, gun and gear set aside that I let people use. I can't tell you how many people, (including Active Duty Spec Ops) who do not even own a firearm! Just keep trying.

Something that does convince some people to get more training is AFTER they've been involved in a dangerous situation.

[Default.mp3]

Not once did I mention nor imply "force." How do you not see the below as "encouragement?" I seriously ask as I believe we are having a communications failure somewhere.

Always be humble, always seek to better yourself, and for the sake of our rights, and our culture, take a newbie shooting, and keep the right of self preservation alive.

Well, you did say that:

I bang my head against the wall a lot explaining to new gun owners that spending that AR15 or second handgun purchase money on a class is money better spent. From pistol shooting doth all shooting skills grow in my book. With the max point blank of the .223, it's not fucking hard to "hammer" with an AR. It's a lot harder to stay on target with a pistol from 3-25 yards but...it's more rewarding.

I suspect the issue that rob_s is pursuing isn't taking newbies out to shoot so that they can be exposed to firearms, but how much effort we should spend to convince dilettantes to do a more comprehensive cost-benefit analysis on what they spend their money, i.e., convince them that buying a second Noveske or taking another Carbine 2 class isn't half as helpful as getting an MMA gym membership or taking a Pannone Covert Carry course.

If building a CQBR SOPMOD Block II clone makes someone happy, despite the fact that they can't run a clean FAST under 15 seconds, how hard should we try to convince them that they should really sign up for an ECQC? Ultimately, how much does the rest of the stuff matter as long as they follow the first rule of gunfighting religiously (have a gun)?

[Lomshek]

Well, you did say that:
If building a CQBR SOPMOD Block II clone makes someone happy, despite the fact that they can't run a clean FAST under 15 seconds, how hard should we try to convince them that they should really sign up for an ECQC? Ultimately, how much does the rest of the stuff matter as long as they follow the first rule of gunfighting religiously (have a gun)?

I figured out a while ago that I don't try to convince them of anything. If they ask I'll offer advice and if they see me shooting and are awed (got 'em fooled!) then they're more prone to listen but still the majority won't do the work they need to get under a 10 second FAST. So I just don't lose sleep over their decisions.

[rob_s]

Because I don't want whatever-the-fuck-we-do-that-binds-us-together-in-this-little-community-since-you-don't-like-my-previous-term.

I wrote an off the cuff bit on how we should not become complacent in our training, seasoned it with reminders nigh pleas to urge others not to focus upon the material but rather training (and not just firearms training), and ended it with urging folks in whatever-the-fuck-we-do-that-binds-us-together-in-this-little-community-since-you-don't-like-my-previous-term to take a newbie out shooting. Out of what I wrote, you said that I wanted to "force people to get it."

So yeah, we're having a failure to communicate and given your constant stream of negativity on anything and everything gun/training related, that's not going to change sans professional counseling and I don't mean that as an insult but I truly do think you have a psychological problem and fixation with the firearms community yet you seem not able to to stay away from it. You subtract more than you add here but we don't ban people based upon their tone nor content so long as they stay within the COC.

Anyway, respond with a negative rant, do what you like within the COC. I can't engage with you any more and I'm not the only one. Enjoy the community, stay within the rules. As a moderator, I can't put you on Ignore but I won't be reading your negative rants about the firearms community in literally every thread you participate in, to include posts on carpentry.

Folks, hit the Report Post button if he breaks the COC but otherwise don't expect me to read his negative, obsessive rants.

So, then, you don't have a reply to my actual question then?

I'm trying to understand why everyone cares so much what people they consider beneath them is doing with their time and money. If I point out that it's silly for a suburban accountant to spend $2k on a rifle and go take a bunch of ninja classes you guys pipe up with "it's his time, his money, he can do what he wants". But if you, or many others, percieve that some "newbie" isn't doing things your way or in line with how you think they should be playing with guns, you need to counsel them, take them to the range, tell them they're doing it wrong... all I'm asking is why?

Why do you, and so many others, seem to take an almost religious fervor to these things?

If my "rants" seem "obsessive" or "negative" to you, I frankly think that says more about you than about me. Yes, I think most of what goes on in the training and defensive "community" is silly. Why? Because I've been doing it for just a little bit, seen behind the curtain on a LOT of what goes on, and eventually the lightbulb went on for me. I used to think just like a LOT of you guys. I *need* to carry a gun everywhere, and a knife, and a tourniquet, and take 4 training classes a year, and ad nauseum. I just simply don't believe that to be the case, and if you want to talk about people needing counseling I'd suggest that it's the people that are so consumed with this stuff that they can't see out.

Why do I stick around?

Because I do think there is a bit of a community. I do enjoy shooting. I enjoy talking about guns and shooting. I think there is a place for a firearm and other skills in the modern suburban dad-bod lifestyle of most guys. I think most people take it way too far, obsess over it way too much, and put their emphasis on all kinds of wrong things, and I was under the impression that's what this thread was about?

[rob_s]

Well, you did say that:
I suspect the issue that rob_s is pursuing isn't taking newbies out to shoot so that they can be exposed to firearms, but how much effort we should spend to convince dilettantes to do a more comprehensive cost-benefit analysis on what they spend their money, i.e., convince them that buying a second Noveske or taking another Carbine 2 class isn't half as helpful as getting an MMA gym membership or taking a Pannone Covert Carry course.

If building a CQBR SOPMOD Block II clone makes someone happy, despite the fact that they can't run a clean FAST under 15 seconds, how hard should we try to convince them that they should really sign up for an ECQC? Ultimately, how much does the rest of the stuff matter as long as they follow the first rule of gunfighting religiously (have a gun)?

bingo fucking bango.

or, in the parlance of the realm...

...HEAR HEAR!

[rob_s]

I agree with your point about dissension, but there is useful, conversational dissension, and there is what Rob does, a lot of the time, which is "I actually know way more about this stuff than you guys do, and I'm on an enlightened plane compared to you, so you're just doing it wrong." Otherwise known as too cool for school. Which really cracks me up, so I don't bother railing against it, which I'm not doing now. Just pointing out what I see as the difference.

It similarly "cracks me up" that so many people seem to take it that way.

I don't know shit.

Except to say that I've gotten in exactly as many deadly encounters AFTER getting consumed with worrying myself to death about them as before, which is to say 0.

What I *believe*, and my *opinion* is, that most people are focusing on all the wrong shit for all the wrong reasons. If that's not the case, then people sure do spend a whole lot of time getting awfully upset about opinions that they claim are nonsense or don't apply to them.

Now THAT cracks ME up.

I'm sorry to throw a turd in the company circle-jerk where everyone sits around the computer nodding and smiling and agreeing about everything.

[rob_s]

Not really, but I still try my best. I invite people to the range, offer to take them to IDPA or USPSA matches, give them info about instructors and other classes, etc...I even have a range bag, gun and gear set aside that I let people use. I can't tell you how many people, (including Active Duty Spec Ops) who do not even own a firearm! Just keep trying.

Something that does convince some people to get more training is AFTER they've been involved in a dangerous situation.

This I think is a good technique. I'll take anyone that wants to out to the range to go shooting, and I'll even give them a gun, ammo, holster, etc. for their first outing.

What I'm not going to do is "bang my head against the wall" trying to get some guy that just wants to say he owns a gun so he can say he owns a gun to agree with me on all things self-defense, especially when he and I are virtually guaranteed to have no different life expectancy all else being equal.

now if that guy goes out and shoots, and maybe goes to a match, or has another epiphany that leads to him wanting to improve, for whatever reason, then I'm happy to suggest instructors, send him links, direct him away from the charlatans, and share my opinion as to where he should focus his time and money to get the best, fastest, most applicable results to his own situation.

[GJM]

One of the things I enjoy about rob_s posts is he almost always has a different point of view. Over time, most forums seem to take on a consensus view on many things, and I think diversity in thinking is healthy. One of the things I didn't enjoy about his posts, is that it seemed like he often waited until he was grouchy or hangry before hitting the keyboard. I am even used to that now, though, and hardly notice it.

[Chance]

Most people seemed to think that it would require a lot of work to maintain as a quality resource and many were opposed to the "anybody can edit" nature of a wiki and weren't willing to take on the responsibility of managing the edits -- which I can totally understand since everyone here is a volunteer.

Yeah, it would be a lot of work. I was just digging through some older threads the other day, and marveled at how patient some people have been, having the same conversation over and over ad nauseam. Especially regarding things like AIWB, or the pros and cons of LEM, for instance. Maybe for that handful of oft discussed topics, it'd be worth the effort.

[Matt O]

One of the things I enjoy about rob_s posts is he almost always has a different point of view. Over time, most forums seem to take on a consensus view on many things, and I think diversity in thinking is healthy. One of the things I didn't enjoy about his posts, is that it seemed like he often waited until he was grouchy or hangry before hitting the keyboard. I am even used to that now, though, and hardly notice it.

Posting on an empty stomach often makes one come across as overly hangry.


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